View Full Version : How hard is it to start a new Ceroc or jive club in a new area?
Ste
4th-September-2004, 07:35 PM
How hard is it to start a new Ceroc club in relatively virgin territory ( ie where there are no other Ceroc clubs ) and does Ceroc have any advantages over non Ceroc e.g. Blitz or independent.
Do clubs close down and can you make money at this game?
stewart38
4th-September-2004, 08:27 PM
How hard is it to start a new Ceroc club in relatively virgin territory ( ie where there are no other Ceroc clubs ) and does Ceroc have any advantages over non Ceroc e.g. Blitz or independent.
Do clubs close down and can you make money at this game?
If you make money let me know, ill put a few quid in
Partly sticking to the thread it would be interesting to know what ceroc rules are re how close you can be re opening up another ceroc venue.
A place like windsor gets 300 + people in a lesiure centre why hasnt someone tried opening up another with 5 miles another nite ? must be rules
Andreas
4th-September-2004, 08:29 PM
Ceroc has got the advantage of brand. This comes at a cost, naturally.
Clubs do close down, you don't have guaranteed business but if you do it right you can make money off it.
RobC
4th-September-2004, 10:58 PM
Partly sticking to the thread it would be interesting to know what ceroc rules are re how close you can be re opening up another ceroc venue.
A place like windsor gets 300 + people in a lesiure centre why hasnt someone tried opening up another with 5 miles another nite ? must be rules
I'm not a franchisee so I can't give you a definitive answer, but I believe that before opening a new franchise (dunno if it is the same for a new venue in an existing franchise) it is announced at the Ceroc Franchisee meetings and the existing franchisee's have a chance to object if it is too close to their area.
TheTramp
4th-September-2004, 11:31 PM
Something like that maybe.
I heard that when you take on a franchise, you 'buy' the postcode area (I believe). So, you own the exclusive right to start up Ceroc clubs within that franchise. (I'm not sure if this also gives you the right to just dance with your preferred partner at the back of classes, but that's probably an old joke by now).
Trampy
bigdjiver
5th-September-2004, 12:31 AM
How hard is it to start a new Ceroc club in relatively virgin territory ( ie where there are no other Ceroc clubs ) I have no expertise, but my guess is, if you can meet the requirements, not hard at all.
But who wants to just start a venue? Most people would want to keep it going, and most of those would want to turn a profit.
and does Ceroc have any advantages over non Ceroc e.g. Blitz or independent.? You have the advantage of the name and the accumulated expertise of Ceroc, or Blitz or any other established franchise. You can also expect visitors from other venues, probably more so from other franchises in the organisation.
Do clubs close down and can you make money at this game? You will have to be rich to treat it as a game. It is a risky business. Venues close down or move all of the time, and some franchisees lose a lot of money before becoming established. It can take a very long time to establish a venue, even from a sound base. Le Jive tried in Anerley for nearly a year with attendances seldom reaching 35 before giving up, and it looked like a good area. Ceroc Kent also tried in the same area, and were scratching by. They pulled out after a glitter ball fell from the ceiling, and tried at least one more venue before managing to acquire the Arnhem Gallery, which was packed out on my last visit there. (A long while ago)
Even when you have a rocking venue it may not last. In the Central area we have had two halls close their doors to successful nights at very short notice. One sold the hall, the other was as a result of a takeover. The nights now thrive at different venues.
Gus
5th-September-2004, 11:52 AM
You will have to be rich to treat it as a game. It is a risky business. Venues close down or move all of the time, and some franchisees lose a lot of money before becoming established. It can take a very long time to establish a venue, even from a sound base. Le Jive tried in Anerley for nearly a year with attendances seldom reaching 35 before giving up, and it looked like a good area. Ceroc Kent also tried in the same area, and were scratching by.
Very true. To date I've opened 4 venues, acquired 1 ... and of those 5; closed 3 (2 Ceroc, 1 Blitz), sold 1 for half what it was worth (Ceroc) and am still running a very succesful (but new) Blitz club. The two ceroc closures cost me the better part of £8k ( :mad: ) ... at venues that SHOULD have worked ... still dont know why they failed :sick: The Blitz one I had to shut because I couldnt give it the time it needed though its was doing quite well.
You have to have reserves of cash, patience, belief and a good supporting crew ...and most importantly .. LUCK!
bigdjiver
5th-September-2004, 04:33 PM
Very true. To date I've opened 4 venues, acquired 1 ... and of those 5; closed 3 (2 Ceroc, 1 Blitz), sold 1 for half what it was worth (Ceroc) and am still running a very succesful (but new) Blitz club. The two ceroc closures cost me the better part of £8k ( :mad: ) ... at venues that SHOULD have worked ... still dont know why they failed :sick: The Blitz one I had to shut because I couldnt give it the time it needed though its was doing quite well.
You have to have reserves of cash, patience, belief and a good supporting crew ...and most importantly .. LUCK! :yeah:
I regularly say that everybody needs luck in business forums, but get swamped with the positive thinking ****, which denies that luck has anything to do with business success.
This is a people business, and the personalities of the attendees matter too. There are some people with massive social circles who can almost make a venue on their own, if you can get them as a convert. If their ex is there on their first night you may only get to see the pair of them once, and the socialite may be working against you. The difference between success and failure can be as fickle as that. That is an invented example, but I have seen three star guys turn up at a struggling venue on a night when all of the star ladies were missing, never to return. Even that could have made all of the difference.
Gordon J Pownall
6th-September-2004, 01:26 PM
If you are serious, the one way to get definitive information about the purchase of a Ceroc Franchise is to contact Ceroc Head Office (www.ceroc.com).
They regularly hold information days for prospective frnachisees and explain all the costs, training, areas of coverage, set up costs, business support, marketing and PR etc.
It will at least give you an idea of what Ceroc can offer you as a business partner.
I'm not sure if Blitz do a similar thing....Gus can you help...???
As for independent, then this (IMHO) may be riskier in that you will be doing all off your own back without a brand name or infrstructure to back you up.
Much of the set up will be 'flying solo' in terms of insurance, indemnity, teachers etc etc. You may well have acumen and expertise in this aspect however you may welll need to 'purchase' advice.
Your bank may be able to help as well in terms of advice / information and developing a business plan and set up cost forecasting. They may well do this free of charge (particularly if they think you are going to ask for a loan from them....)
Hope this is useful information for you......
Gus
6th-September-2004, 02:38 PM
If you are serious, the one way to get definitive information about the purchase of a Ceroc Franchise is to contact Ceroc Head Office .....They regularly hold information days for prospective frnachisees and explain all the costs, training, areas of coverage, set up costs, business support, marketing and PR etc.
I'm not sure if Blitz do a similar thing....Gus can you help...???
To be honest . re Blitz ... dunno! Best to ask blitz direct, www.blitzjive.com ... or somethjing like that.
Of course, there is always the LeRoc organisation but dont know what help/advice you get to set-up.
Re the Ceroc info, personal reservations aside, they do have a well researched and organised franchisee package.
Lou
6th-September-2004, 03:16 PM
Of course, there is always the LeRoc organisation but dont know what help/advice you get to set-up.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Any particular Leroc organisation, Gus? :wink:
Advantages of setting up a LeRoc class. There's a relatively well known brand name (more so in certain parts of the UK). If you need it, there's the LeRoc Federation to provide training, exams, insurance & help in setting up your class. Or - you can set up a LeRoc organisation independently, as it's a generic term, and you don't need to shell out for a franchise.
Ste
7th-September-2004, 01:07 PM
Well thanks for that Gus. you are one of the top authorities in the biz in the North.
One aspect that I am interested in is whether it is possible to succeed in virgin territory where there is not a great modern jive tradition.
What i mean is that I am wondering whether it is possible to go fro say a much younger audience and lock them in. I think the Ceroc Blitz crowd are generally older than in London which is what I am used to. Can this dance be sold to a younger crowd and in virgin territory. I actually have doubts about this but I think that younger people could be the future of Ceroc and if we are going to get this dance into mainstream consciousness then it has to nbe marketed succesfully to young uns.But is this a pipe dream?
MartinHarper
7th-September-2004, 01:35 PM
Can this dance be sold to a younger crowd and in virgin territory?
Wasn't that how the Ceroc company first started?
bigdjiver
7th-September-2004, 03:53 PM
Wasn't that how the Ceroc company first started?& Ceroc Oz & Ceroc NZ certainly started in virgin territory. Ceroc Bedford and Ceroc Norwich and most Franchisees just about started in that situation. You cannot expect to attract experienced dancers to a new club anyway, unless you have some super attraction.
Virgin territory is not all bad. It may be the case that you actually lose the keener new intermediates to surrounding venues if there are others nearby. This phenomenon is often seen when trying to open a second night at a successful venue.
Lounge Lizard
7th-September-2004, 04:28 PM
I have started LeRoc classes in Hastings and Cranleigh as the only MJ class in that town with reasonable success, I tried brighton and failed.... cos (it seemed) in Hastings and Cranleigh there was little else going on in the way of dance, whereas Brighton they were spoilt for choice.
I have had reasonable success as a Teacher & DJ on the MJ Circuit, I live on the south coast, yet for the remainder of 2004 have 9 Bookings for major events throughout the UK - 5 'up north' - 1 in the Midlands and 3 'down south'.
Unfortunatly as a promoter my success is limited, I have cancelled my own dances for this year - I put on 8 dances in 2004 and had a totol of 180 at all venues :tears: :tears:
So If you want to make a success of it, luck hard work and good promotion, mixed with a modicum of talent.
Guys like Franck & Adam can make it look easy, but from my experience it is far from it, and they deserve full respect.
Leroc is a name you can use but as a benefit to promotion of a venue it think it offers little (Mainly cos most of the time and effort put into it is done for free by dedicated members)
Target age group........ promote it to the younger age group as much as you like, it is the older ones that turn up at the venues throughout the country in their 1000's every week.
Why is it that we have found a perfect dance/social/entertaining night out for the 30+ group and keep trying to aim younger - corse they are welcome, but they are clearly in the minority at most venues
pp
bigdjiver
7th-September-2004, 10:14 PM
... Target age group........ promote it to the younger age group as much as you like, it is the older ones that turn up at the venues throughout the country in their 1000's every week.
Why is it that we have found a perfect dance/social/entertaining night out for the 30+ group and keep trying to aim younger - corse they are welcome, but they are clearly in the minority at most venues
pp :yeah:
MartinHarper
8th-September-2004, 12:25 AM
Why is it that we have found a perfect dance/social/entertaining night out for the 30+ group and keep trying to aim younger.
This isn't specific to dancing... Suppose that my group has an average age of 30-40. Therefore, I try to attract new dancers in the age range 30-40. Next year, my group will be a year older - between 31 and 41. So I try to attract new dancers in the age range 31-41. Fast forward a couple of decades to see the problem... :) Thus, because people age, you need to aim off to compensate.
Lounge Lizard
8th-September-2004, 10:24 AM
This isn't specific to dancing... Suppose that my group has an average age of 30-40. Therefore, I try to attract new dancers in the age range 30-40. Next year, my group will be a year older - between 31 and 41. So I try to attract new dancers in the age range 31-41. Fast forward a couple of decades to see the problem... :) Thus, because people age, you need to aim off to compensate.Err no aim at the age range of 30 - 40 (and above) when the twenty somethings mature into their 30's they discover MJ and the true meaning of life, so, it is a sell filling pot......(think I will stop dreaming now)
LL
Dreadful Scathe
8th-September-2004, 10:55 AM
it is a sell filling pot
I read that as 'a Phil Selling Pot' - no wonder your classes are so relaxed ;)
Ste
9th-September-2004, 12:39 PM
It is interesting that MJ apeals more to people in their thirties and forties.
The thing is that I see MJ as being a rather lively form of dance and well suited to people that can jump around and things like that!
I am not sure how long I have in MJ as a dancer. I am still fit but I ain't what I used to be. I suppose a marketing point for MJ to an older person like me is that it is good for my coordination and stops it from deteriorating too rapidly.
TheTramp
9th-September-2004, 12:56 PM
It is interesting that MJ apeals more to people in their thirties and forties.
The thing is that I see MJ as being a rather lively form of dance and well suited to people that can jump around and things like that!
I am not sure how long I have in MJ as a dancer. I am still fit but I ain't what I used to be. I suppose a marketing point for MJ to an older person like me is that it is good for my coordination and stops it from deteriorating too rapidly.
Yeah. Go tell that to Frankie Manning. Or several of our own esteemed slightly more mature forumites (who you may well have just insulted?!?).
Trampy
baldrick
9th-September-2004, 12:59 PM
Yeah. Go tell that to Frankie Manning. Or several of our own esteemed slightly more mature forumites (who you may well have just insulted?!?).
Trampy
You starting to feel old Trampy :whistle: :D
TheTramp
9th-September-2004, 01:00 PM
You starting to feel old Trampy :whistle: :D
Starting??
After 2 hours in Jumpin' Jaks with Drathzel and Nix last night, I feel positively ancient!!! :worthy:
(Was great fun though :flower: :hug: :clap: )
Trampy
baldrick
9th-September-2004, 01:17 PM
Starting??
After 2 hours in Jumpin' Jaks with Drathzel and Nix last night, I feel positively ancient!!! :worthy:
(Was great fun though :flower: :hug: :clap: )
Trampy
Now you just upseting a poor sickie. Never mind, make up for it at the weekend hey. :clap:
Ste
10th-September-2004, 10:41 PM
Who is Frankie Manning?
drathzel
10th-September-2004, 10:46 PM
Who is Frankie Manning?
i have no idea
I had a great time too trampy with you and nix .... we should all do it again soon... although not too sure about making it to dundee next week!!! :whistle:
Gus
10th-September-2004, 11:16 PM
Who is Frankie Manning?
The Main Man! Guy was a leading dancer witn a Swing dance troupe back in the late 20's ... V LONG story but was rediscovered and is now back teaching Lindy Hop in his 80s. Think he's here in the UK for 'Swinging at the Woodside' every year ... was there 4 yaers ago and was in a class when the great man was teaching us novices the Lindy Turn out... great guy, great teacher .. truly inspirational. I'm sure the Oracle could give you a more in depth description.
Anyway ... whats this go to do with the thread.
So Ste ... Ceroc or Blitz, or are you going to see the light and go independant and/or with LeRoc?
Andy McGregor
11th-September-2004, 09:46 AM
:yeah:
I regularly say that everybody needs luck in business forums, but get swamped with the positive thinking ****, which denies that luck has anything to do with business success.
I agree with this, I think that luck is part of the equation too. You still need all of the other things, hard work, positive attitude, sound business plan, market research, advertising, good staff, etc, etc, etc. But, for example, if you're lucky enough to have a venue close near you you'll get the dancers that've got nowhere to go. And if you're unlucky and have a new venue open nearby on the same night as you your chances of success are reduced. So, my advice is do everything right, don't expect good luck and pray that you don't get any bad luck.
And, for people on business forums, here is my example of good luck in business. Years ago I was in Pharmaceutical marketing and the NHS introduced a limited list of products a GP could prescribe in certain categories of drug. We had the number 2 product in 2 of the categories, our product was on the list, the number one products weren't. That earnt the company an extra five million that year and is now earning an extra 50 million per annum!!! I'd say that was lucky - but we did need to do a load of work and get it right to fully benefit from that windfall.
Gus
11th-September-2004, 09:54 AM
I agree with this, I think that luck is part of the equation too. You still need all of the other things, hard work, positive attitude, sound business plan, market research, advertising, good staff, etc, etc, etc. I hear what you are saying but this MJ lark is like no other business I've been in. We openned a club in Congleton (nice middle class Chshire town), right demographics, no other dance competition, spuerb venue, fantastic teacher (Sue Taylor) and a good crew. The club died on its feet! Went back to Nantwich where nothing much was happening despite some good effort and then over one month numbers just doubled ... with no apparent reason :confused: On the face of it, given how addicted people get about MJ, you should be able to open a club anywhere and get people flocking in (as long as they hear about it) ... but that just doesnt seem to happen.
Minnie M
11th-September-2004, 12:08 PM
Who is Frankie Manning?
More important, he celebrated his 90th birthday this year at 'Jumpin at the Woodside' and is still teaching and DANCING :really: He was also at the Swing Jam at Brunel University near Windsor (teaching and dancing) a couple of weeks ago
Just out of interest and kinda back on thread - it is harder to set up a Swing club than a MJ one - many have tried and failed
bigdjiver
11th-September-2004, 12:13 PM
I hear what you are saying but this MJ lark is like no other business I've been in. We openned a club in Congleton (nice middle class Chshire town), right demographics, no other dance competition, spuerb venue, fantastic teacher (Sue Taylor) and a good crew. The club died on its feet! ...
... On the face of it, given how addicted people get about MJ, you should be able to open a club anywhere and get people flocking in (as long as they hear about it) ... but that just doesnt seem to happen. Being in Management Information systems I have been associated with all sorts of business management, and have run some of my own. MJ is certainly different, one reason for my fascination with its management.
No other dance competition? Did that perhaps mean no active dance tradition, no social groups of dancers to spread the message? Too few faces they knew when they first came?
Superb crew and venue? Did that mean that the newcomer was faced with the intimidating first, but enduring, image of a "class act", which seemed beyond them, despite all of the best efforts of all concerned to demonstrate the contrary.
A cheap and slightly amateurish church hall, a slightly bumbling, but humerous, instructor, cheaper disco equipment, just might have fared better.
As we all agree, MJ is different.
Andy McGregor
11th-September-2004, 12:29 PM
He was also at the Swing Jam at Brunel University near Windsor
When I went to Brunel it was in Uxbridge: although everyone that didn't go there thought it was in Bristol :confused:
philsmove
11th-September-2004, 12:52 PM
Who is Frankie Manning?
go to google and type in Frankie Manning
or look here
http://www.savoystyle.com/frankie_manning.html
Minnie M
11th-September-2004, 03:58 PM
When I went to Brunel it was in Uxbridge: although everyone that didn't go there thought it was in Bristol :confused:
Geography was never my best subject at skool, nor was spelling but I did say NEAR Windsor, and it is kinda near Windsor, well that direction :blush:
Lou
11th-September-2004, 06:34 PM
When I went to Brunel it was in Uxbridge: although everyone that didn't go there thought it was in Bristol :confused:
Maybe it's 'cos we've got a Brunel college here (although it's probably better known for its acting role as Holby General in Casualty! :sick: )
Ste
11th-September-2004, 08:49 PM
So Ste ... Ceroc or Blitz, or are you going to see the light and go independant and/or with LeRoc?
I don't know Gus! I need to do the research really! What's your advice? PM me if its too personal!
I really want to be like a spreader of modern jive. A bit like a religion really but I am aware that it could cost me. Blitz has got a great name up North but Ceroc has the UK brand name and occaisionally gets on TV.
I do want to do something despite my F.E.A.R. because I love the whole modern jive movement. I think it brings sometihing so wonderfully positive for the world. When I was in London me and Will did promo street dancing for Ceroc O2 centre even though all we got out of it was a free meal and maybe an admit one and I also street danced for Fulham as well. It wasn't just the admit ones. I really wanted to do something for an organisation that I have great regard for.
Why do I love Ceroc ( and modern jive ) even apart from the dancing? Because it has given me great friends. It is like a non religious church to me and when I move from dance club to dance club ( because I have gone thru about three jobs since the end of 2001 ) I miss people from the places that I left behind. When I went to Brum I was quite depressed at work and at home because I hardly knew anyone but I made some lovely friends at Lnadrover and the Glee Club who I am still in contact with now! When I first got to Brum one of the people on this forum was ringing me up and making sure I was alright etc.
The modern jive scene has some of the most positive people and lovely networks of people. It is a worthy cause to promote!I would love to see people flooding in to the classes ( altho I do like a bit of floor space!).
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