Stepping back safely

[MartinHarper]

Floorcraft for dummies...

How do you step back without inadvertantly crippling someone every now and again by smacking your heel into their achilles tendon?

[RobC]

Floorcraft for dummies...

How do you step back without inadvertantly crippling someone every now and again by smacking your heel into their achilles tendon?
Well, the occassional glance over your shoulder before moving backwards or leading your partner into a catapult-type move always goes down a treat..... :wink:

.... if only we could persuade everyone on the dance floor to actually look where they're dancing :angry:

[jiveoholic]

One of my (X) partners was crippled for 3 months by such action - by another lady!

Its just a thought - but perhaps it is not so uncool as to look around when stepping back?!

[MartinHarper]

Well, the occassional glance over your shoulder before moving backwards or leading your partner into a catapult-type move always goes down a treat.....

Well yes, for a catapult, or a backwards walk, a glance is the solution, and works fine for me, barring occasional carelessness. I'm not asking about that. I'm asking about a step back - as in the thing you do three or four times in a first move. I do not see anyone glancing over their shoulder that frequently. By all means post a video of yourself dancing and prove me wrong!

[Andy McGregor]

Well yes, for a catapult, or a backwards walk, a glance is the solution, and works fine for me, barring occasional carelessness. I'm not asking about that. I'm asking about a step back - as in the thing you do three or four times in a first move. I do not see anyone glancing over their shoulder that frequently. By all means post a video of yourself dancing and prove me wrong!

There are many videos of RobC dancing - I'm in some of them with him :sick:

Basically, to move into a space you haven't checked is vacant is irresponsible. To say that RobC might be irresponsible is libellous, RobC is a considerate dancer and is (surprisingly) available for dates...

[jiveoholic]

Thinking about it.....when I step back, my body moves back and I place the moving foot under my body, ie my foot never leaves being under my body. This is unlike stepping forward, where I throw my leg out, John Cleese style, and then follow with my body.

Not sure why it works this way - but its fortunate!

[spindr]

A few thoughts:

1). Don't take a big step back -- step back under the shadow of your backside -- if you want to take a bigger step, then adopt a Lindy style posture :)
2). Don't lower your foot quickly when you step back -- keep most of the weight on the ball of the foot -- almost like a *proper* back rock :)
3). Take your hand back behind you before you step back, as in Savoy style Lindy.

SpinDr.

[RobC]

Well yes, for a catapult, or a backwards walk, a glance is the solution, and works fine for me, barring occasional carelessness. I'm not asking about that. I'm asking about a step back - as in the thing you do three or four times in a first move. I do not see anyone glancing over their shoulder that frequently. By all means post a video of yourself dancing and prove me wrong!
Ahh, now that's the trick :wink: Maintaining spatial awareness without having to continuously look over your shoulder. IMHO, it's a skill that many women will thank you for learning.

It's like driving. Noone drives while continously looking in the rear view mirror or the wing mirrors - you need to look where you are going once in a while :what: - but all good drivers should be aware of what's going on on the road around them, and that include cars approaching from behind etc.

I may not spend the whole track looking over my shoulder, but I do try to pay attention to what the other dancers around me are doing and with that knowledge I can anticipate what they might do, where they might move to, and ensure that my partner is not going to collide with them.

That said, some women can take all the looking around (ie not looking at them) the wrong way. I have had one woman accuse me of 'looking around for my next partner', but the majority of people I dance with are greatful for the attention paid to the space around them. There are plenty of ladies on the forum who know me and dance with me fairly regularly. Anyone like to tell Martin just how much time I spend looking out for them ?

[Dazzle]

Spacial awareness as described is one of the skills/abilities NOT taught from the stage in a class or many workshops (I have attended anyway, to avoid liable and the rest! :flower: ). It may be given lip service but how do you teach it? You can ask from the stage until you are blue in the face for dancers to be aware of other dancers around them and show consideration, but it doesn't get through to the ones who should be listening, like so many other points like this one on here.

Being aware comes from consideration and experience. Once you start to be familiar with the moves you can worry less about your hands, feet and body and a little more about what is happening around you, walking into a larger free space, getting nearer the cooling fan and so on :whistle: ! Familiarity with a venue and the crowd of dancers there will help too. But then some venues are just simply too crowded, which doesn't help at all! :angry:

How you groom people into this kind of awareness I am not sure? Unfortunately, it seems to take many of them becoming victims of it before they grasp the concept! I learned from a friend's broken ankle :sick: (not the guilty party I hasten to add :innocent: ), so managed to avoid experiencing it myself (so far?)! Maybe Bloch (or whoever) should create some padded ankle steelie-toed dance sneakers with built in shin-pads? :clap: Would look great with a dress ladies? NO?

[jiveoholic]

I learned a VERY salitory lesson and fortunately only had to learn it once (shame it one even once some may say). There were hardly any dancers at this venue, so I gave my visual and verbal cue and lifted the lady right up into the air, twirled her round and - just as I had planned her landing zone - would yo believe it? - someone had marched his lady right beneath me!

I did notice - kept her up for longer than intended and had very painful arms the next day for my trouble!

What I am trying to say is that it is AMAZING how people can shift position when you think it would be impossible.

[MartinHarper]

Being aware comes from consideration and experience.

So, if I pay attention to what I'm doing, this should get better with time? That's reassuring, if not immediately helpful. So, how to get my experience without crippling anyone in the process?

I like spindr's and jiveholic's advice about keeping backsteps under my body - and moving the body before the foot. I also like spindr's point about putting your hand behind you before stepping back (bonus point: something else to do with the spare arm!). But I was unsure about this:


Don't lower your foot quickly when you step back -- keep most of the weight on the ball of the foot

Doesn't that leave your heel in the air at perfect tendon-snapping height? I was even wondering if it would help to slide my feet back, keeping the heel closer to the ground. Still the possibility of bumping feet, but they'd be heel-to-heel more.


To say that RobC might be irresponsible is libellous.

I didn't say that. What I did say wasn't libellous. With all due respect, I rarely take legal advice from pink bunnies... :)

[Andy McGregor]

That said, some women can take all the looking around (ie not looking at them) the wrong way. I have had one woman accuse me of 'looking around for my next partner', but the majority of people I dance with are greatful for the attention paid to the space around them. There are plenty of ladies on the forum who know me and dance with me fairly regularly. Anyone like to tell Martin just how much time I spend looking out for them ?

I've dance with RobC and I can confirm that he's a very considerate dancer. Not only is he aware of the 'traffic' in the space around him, he also uses his one body to shield his partner from less considerate dancers nearby :clap:

[TheTramp]

I don't think that it's possible to stop the unfortunate occasional collision. If it's crowded, no matter how careful you are, sometimes it's going to happen. However, there are several types of behaviour that I think are unacceptable on a crowded dancefloor.....

1. People who do 'walking' moves without looking where they are going - especially backwards, or fast travelling triple-step moves.

2. People who do dips/drops/aerials without regard for the people around them.

3. People who stand on crowded dancefloors, talking

4. People who walk onto dancefloors, about to start dancing, without looking where they are going - especially the ones who walk on backwards!!

If it is crowded, please try to keep it small - small movements, small moves. You can dance in a very small space if you actually think about what you are doing. Unfortunately, there are lots of people who don't appear to be able to think about it... Or have no regard for other people...

Trampy

[Andy McGregor]

. I also like spindr's point about putting your hand behind you before stepping back (bonus point: something else to do with the spare arm!). But I was unsure about this:

Don't do it! Blindly feeling behind you on a crowded dance floor is bound to cause trouble. Who knows what you might touch. Some people have parts of their body they don't even like to touch themselves, let alone some stranger dancing next to them.

.. on second thoughts, it might be a way to meet new people :whistle:

[Trish]

Floorcraft for dummies...

How do you step back without inadvertantly crippling someone every now and again by smacking your heel into their achilles tendon?

There are a lot of good ideas here.

The other thing you could try is talking to the lady you're dancing with. She will often be looking forward when you're stepping backward, and if you ask her in advance to look for people getting in your dancing space, she can warn you, so that you hopefully don't colide.

Sometimes keeping to the edges of the room helps, although you still often get selfish dancefloor-hoggers even there at crowded venues!

Trish

[spindr]

I like spindr's and jiveholic's advice about keeping backsteps under my body - and moving the body before the foot. I also like spindr's point about putting your hand behind you before stepping back (bonus point: something else to do with the spare arm!). But I was unsure about this:

Don't lower your foot quickly when you step back -- keep most of the weight on the ball of the foot
Doesn't that leave your heel in the air at perfect tendon-snapping height? I was even wondering if it would help to slide my feet back, keeping the heel closer to the ground. Still the possibility of bumping feet, but they'd be heel-to-heel more.

Ah Grasshopper -- you must learn the empty step, to step without stepping.

Push the (right) foot back toe on the floor keeping weight on the left -- if the right foot makes contact with anything close it back to the left foot instantaneously (as you haven't any weight to shift, it should be quick).
Transfer weight from left to right foot fairly gradually -- if you feel a toe under your heel shift weight back onto left foot and close right foot back.
(see also tai-chi and Argentine tango :) -- thanks Mike Lavocah for his class at the last Tango Tanck workshop).

If you keep your weight "forwards" you should be able to move quickly away when you touch an obstacle behind you.

Hence, the suggestion of a back rock idea.

If you commit your weight on the back foot -- you have no choice but to squash whatever's underneath the landing zone.

One other thought, try stepping back slightly diagonally towards the other foot, i.e. with a slight twist -- you take up a smaller amount of space for the same amount of step.

Oh and watch your partner -- if they're looking behind you and pulling faces then there might be someone behind you.

More hints'n'tips at: http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/FloorCraft.html :)

SpinDr.

[Gadget]

On a crouded dance floor I have used the technique of 'planting' my feet; one foot infront of the other in a relaxed stance, bent at the knees. From here I can move my weight forward or back, twist and bring the lady to one side or another, and move the lady in the (little) space available. Feet don't move. Unfortunatly this sometimes leaves the back foot open to being kicked or trod on on the odd occasion; no plan is perfect.

Another other I have been known to do is not take any steps bigger than a shuffling step and use lots of baskets, combs, and close moves.

One technique that was mentioned elsewhere was moving your partner into the space you vacate and you moving into the space that they were in. (ie "slot" or "cross" dancing) there is very little in backward movement using this technique: you can always see where your partner is going and where you are going.

Personally I like the option of sliding the foot instead of stepping... less dynamic, but smoother.

[Sheepman]

talking to the lady you're dancing with. She will often be looking forward when you're stepping backward, and the "talking" doesn't have to be verbal, many are the times when my partner has applied that extra tension warning me not to go backwards.

I like the driving analogy, and talk of spatial awareness is easy, having it is more difficult. You are not frantically looking around all the time, but always checking the space that you are about to move your partner into. Taking the first move example, you check over your right shoulder before bringing her forward into that space (even though she is going forwards so can see the space). How big is this step back anyway? In a crowded venue I would try and keep it within my body space, my toes wouldn't be leaving the floor (well at least that's my intention).

Greg

[RobC]

Spacial awareness as described is one of the skills/abilities NOT taught from the stage in a class or many workshops ...
--SNIP--
Being aware comes from consideration and experience. Once you start to be familiar with the moves you can worry less about your hands, feet and body and a little more about what is happening around you, walking into a larger free space, getting nearer the cooling fan and so on :whistle: ! Familiarity with a venue and the crowd of dancers there will help too. But then some venues are just simply too crowded, which doesn't help at all! :angry:

You're right - it's the kind of detail that many people switch off to when you try and teach it from a stage, so many teachers just don't even bother to mention it. Personally, I would say it's the sort of thing that ought to be taught in a smaller workshop where the teacher is among the class (not miles away on a stage) and the class is more likely to listen and take it in - unfortunately even then it doesn't always get taught..... :sad:

As to the over-crowding in a venue, to be honest I have found that most people are a little more considerate in these situations. Its when there is a little bit more space available that people seem to think they can blindly use the whole dancefloor regardless of the other dancers around them. :mad:

[Gus]

You're right - it's the kind of detail that many people switch off to when you try and teach it from a stage, so many teachers just don't even bother to mention it.

Its become a weekly routine at one venue I teach at. I wait for quiet (like dealing with naughty school children), I raise the topic of dance floor ettiquette and men being responsible for their partner and other dancers, the dancers roll their eyes and wait for me to stop wasteing their time ... then the freestyle starts and they kick sh*t out of each other :tears:

Short of using a cattle prod I dont know what the answer is. Considering that the average MJ dancer has above average intelligence, why are they so bl**dy stupid and self-centred when it comes to dancing??
{Rant just beginning}

[TheTramp]

Gus.....

Is there anything that you actually like about the dancers that come to your classes. You always seem to be ranting about them for one reason or another!!

Just wondering :whistle:

Trampy

[MartinHarper]

I wonder why floorcraft has to be something taught seperately? A lot of the things mentioned in this thread seem to be things you could teach as part of teaching moves. Eg: for the catapult tip RobC gave me earlier, "circle and step back" becomes "circle and step back, checking over your shoulder how much space you've got behind you".

[Gus]

Gus.....

Is there anything that you actually like about the dancers that come to your classes. You always seem to be ranting about them for one reason or another!!
Trampy

Dunno mate ... at least they seem to keep on coming back for more so I must be doing something right :whistle:

Maybe its just that the quality of CTA training shows through ( :innocent: ) .... putting the non-CTA trained teachers in the shade .... that has always been the reason for making sure that no non-CTA trained instructors ever darken a Ceroc stage isnt it! :flower:

[RobC]

I wonder why floorcraft has to be something taught seperately? A lot of the things mentioned in this thread seem to be things you could teach as part of teaching moves. Eg: for the catapult tip RobC gave me earlier, "circle and step back" becomes "circle and step back, checking over your shoulder how much space you've got behind you".
Going back to the driving analogy I used earlier, I dunno if anyone else was taught this, but my driving instructor taught me to use the M-S-M acronym. Think the same aptly applies to dancing.

Mirror - Check you have space to do the move
Signal - Lead the move for your partner to follow
Manouver - Do the move

(Not that I'm in anyway comparing my dance partners to a car, you understand :blush: )

[Gus]

Is there anything that you actually like about the dancers that come to your classes. You always seem to be ranting about them for one reason or another!!


Just being neg rep'd for my flippant answer to Tramp's side swipe ( :sick: ) so maybe a more considered reponse is needed no sense of humour some people.....

Like most clubs, the majority of dancers listen to whats going on, try their best, have a damn good time .... and unfortunately its those you notice least. Its the ones who cause problems that you remember. You know what its like ... couple of huindred dancers at an 3-4 hour event and the thing tyhat sticks in your mind is the oaf who is oblivious to all those around them and managesd to bump into you continualy through a track. :tears:

I dont think that there is ANY way of totlay eradicating the issue. However, the problem over people dancing without care for others can me mitigated first of all by education (teacher from stage, Taxi dancers in review session, gentle word from franchisee and crew) ... AND if that doesnt work for a repeat offender, simply show them the door. I dont think any club is desperate enough to keep taking £6 a week from someone who continues to dminish the night for others. Maybe a simplistic approach but it may work?

[Gojive]

Hi everyone,

Some great points and suggestions in this thread, about one of my pet hates!

The only thing I'd like to add, is that when I do end up in a bump, I always apologise immediately to the couple concerned, even if it was clearly not my fault. I find that nine times out of ten they will realise their mistake, and take the blame - hopefully then making them think twice about their own actions in the future :) .

Iain

[MartinHarper]

Danced with someone good this weekend, who reckoned that bumping on the first backstep of the dance was pretty common. So if I just pay a teensy bit more attention at that point, all should be well - provided we can still both start at the same time. :)