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johnthehappyguy
22nd-August-2004, 12:39 AM
Tried searching for a similar post but unable to find it, any help welcome.

I have been dancing Ceroc :clap: for about 6 months, and am usually 3 nights each week.

Have tried different ways to try to retain the content of the lessons.

What works for me just now is:-

1: Writing down the names of the moves just after the lesson,

2: Trying to practice the new moves I like in the freestyle after the lesson,

3: When I get home, noting the important points from those moves in my dance book. ( A guide how to do them, what I liked about it, reminders of things to improve, etc. )

4: Visualing myself doing the moves, thinking with my eyes closed where my arms go etc.

4: Re-reading my dance book and trying to incorporate the moves I like into freestyle.

I am booked up for BFG and really looking forward to the workshops, but am concerned that it will all be too much for my head and I will not retain anything.

Have never attended a workshop before, but have heard from some who have, that they have been disappointed with quality of "written summary notes" - if in fact any are issued.

Perhaps some of you more experienced cerocers :worthy: could clarify if summary notes being handed out at lessons are the exception or the norm, and what quality/how useful they might be.

Similarly what other tips do you have for trying to learn from the lesson, and retain it ?

Any pointers would be really appreciated.

Thanks, John :nice:

johnthehappyguy
22nd-August-2004, 07:44 AM
My post sounds serious, whatever I learn at the workshops - I am sure I will have a lot of fun. :)

Rhythm King
23rd-August-2004, 11:13 AM
Hi John

You sound just like I did when I started. I think what you're doing certainly helps, (it did me) but you shouldn't get too hung up on learning lots of different moves, for the sake of it. You will probably find that the ladies seem to prefer someone who can lead moves well and in time to the music, rather than lots of intermediate moves one after the other. I frequently use lots of basic moves, then put in something a bit flashier, when it fits the music.
I go to weekenders most months (eg: Rock Bottoms, Southport) and holidays (Beach Boogie, La Santa Swing) a couple of times a year. I've given up trying to remember everything single move on offer and now make an effort to remember the ones I particularly like.

The main thing I'm concentrating at the moment to improve my dance is the musicality. I'm trying to listen to the music a lot more to predict how it's going, with a view to hitting the breaks better and being able to be sufficiently relaxed that I can plan a couple of moves ahead. Then I can get that flashier move in, on time and properly set up beforehand, so that the lead is more comfortable and easier to follow for my partner.

I would recommend the workshops, the ones I did in Bedford with Michaela Walker and Emma Pettit :worthy: were really good.

Sorry - rambled a bit :blush:

See you at the BFG, just enjoy it!

R-K

Gus
23rd-August-2004, 11:25 AM
.... I've given up trying to remember everything single move on offer and now make an effort to remember the ones I particularly like.....R-K

Good point. I'd also suggest that you may not want to expect to understand/learn everything at each workshop. From most learning opportunities you will be lucky to take in more than 25% of the content (at least that goes for real world lectures etc). I've done Viktor and Lydia's style workshop about 4 times ... and every time I did it I learned something new, even though it was essentialy the same workshop. :waycool:

Sheepman
23rd-August-2004, 12:11 PM
Good stuff here from both RK and Gus, I would also say, don't try to do every workshop, I rarely do more than 2 a day. The psychologists say it takes 180 repetitions, and 7 hours of brain downtime to properly absorb new movements, so if you try to learn too much, inevitably it gets muddled.
Personally, I often find that on learning something new, it is the stuff that seems most difficult during a lesson, which eventually becomes my favourite after persevering, so don't dismiss something too quickly just because it doesn't seem to be going right.

Greg

Andy McGregor
23rd-August-2004, 12:22 PM
And here is the Zen answer;

Work on doing nothing, or nearly nothing, when you're dancing.

If you watch the expert dancers it's often the poses and slower, but oh-so-stylish movements that set them apart. These things aren't moves, they're non-moves.

For us dancers that are taught moves all the time, this is the difficult path: not doing a move.

Listen to the music, the voices within it will tell you when it's the right time to not do any moves.

Gadget
23rd-August-2004, 12:27 PM
The way I approach workshops is that they are based around a concept. If you get the concept behind it, then the moves are only there as a demonstration of the concept and to pad out the lesson. You can take that concept and apply it to a whole mess of moves {I like that collective noun :D} and it should still hold.

Notes differ from teacher to teacher: some are detailed and basically are exactly what the lesson involved. Some are no more than bullet points. Some don't give notes at all. The notes you take: depends on what you want to remember and how you want to remember it. Some moves from workshops I have written down in descriptive terms (...right hand up to ladies shoulder as she turns...) Others I don't have anything written down for - but still remember. Most folk write the notes at the end of the workshop - if you have difficulty remembering anything at that time, most teachers or more "advanced" dancers will be more than willing to help you by going through stuff.

See you there :D

Sheepman
23rd-August-2004, 02:21 PM
And here is the Zen answer;Well if we're getting all poetic, how about this from Sally Potter
"The intimacy of dance and its love affair with glorious music provides
some, perhaps paradoxical, lessons. I learned that dance--the most
physically active and demanding of the arts--is essentially about
stillness. That music is, at its core, a way of describing silence. That
performing is more about the invisible inside than the visible outside"

And on a slightly more tangible note which I missed out last time, I find that 99% of workshops don't come with any notes, if they do, those notes are rarely more than bullet points, which won't help you much one day on from the workshop, unless you add your own details.

Greg

TheTramp
23rd-August-2004, 02:47 PM
Notes are good.

I suggest the best idea is to take (if you have one) a video camera.

Most teachers won't object to running through moves etc. after the class for people to film - I certainly won't if you are coming to my class, and want to video. A little harder for classes like musicality, where there probably won't be that many 'moves' as such of course.

Trampy

spindr
23rd-August-2004, 03:07 PM
Notes are good.

I suggest the best idea is to take (if you have one) a video camera.

Hmmm, not usually encouraged at most workshops / events that try to sell their own video / DVDs -- probably a good idea to ask first. It also looks a bit suspicious if you're holding a phone still for a long time as well...


Most teachers won't object to running through moves etc. after the class for people to film

I know some teachers that will object -- especially since bootleg videos of their classes, or even them dancing socially have been put up on the net (for sale) -- so I think it's a good idea to ask first.


I certainly won't if you are coming to my class, and want to video. A little harder for classes like musicality, where there probably won't be that many 'moves' as such of course.

Trampy

SpinDr.

TheTramp
23rd-August-2004, 03:42 PM
Hmmm, not usually encouraged at most workshops / events that try to sell their own video / DVDs -- probably a good idea to ask first. It also looks a bit suspicious if you're holding a phone still for a long time as well...
Ah. But I happen to know that there won't be a video or DVD at the BFG.

I know some teachers that will object -- especially since bootleg videos of their classes, or even them dancing socially have been put up on the net (for sale) -- so I think it's a good idea to ask first.

Uh huh. You'll note that I did say that most teachers will run through the class afterwards for videoing. That kind of implies that they've been asked - else, why would they run through it. But yes, I agree. Asking is the way to go. If there's not an actual video of the event, then I've never seen a teacher refuse yet. But I guess that some might. Personally, I'm pleased to make it as easy as possible for people to have an aid to remember what they've been learning.

Trampy

johnthehappyguy
24th-August-2004, 05:53 PM
Hi John

...you shouldn't get too hung up on learning lots of different moves, for the sake of it. You will probably find that the ladies seem to prefer someone who can lead moves well and in time to the music, rather than lots of intermediate moves one after the other.
Thanks RK, yes I totally agree, better to do easy moves well, than trickier moves badly. I try to lead moves as gently as I can with enough tension as well.

Recently discovered why some followers were unable to follow my bad leading, - due to sloppiness when holding their hands, good dancers were unclear what I wanted them to do, as I was holding them at the wrong height, in no mans land.

It eventually clicked that if I want them to turn over their head, I must keep their hand up, and if i don't I must keep it low.

Seems so simple once I had discovered it.

johnthehappyguy
24th-August-2004, 05:55 PM
Hi John


...The main thing I'm concentrating at the moment to improve my dance is the musicality. I'm trying to listen to the music a lot more to predict how it's going, with a view to hitting the breaks better and being able to be sufficiently relaxed that I can plan a couple of moves ahead. Then I can get that flashier move in, on time and properly set up beforehand, so that the lead is more comfortable and easier to follow for my partner.

R-K

I made a conscious effort to try this idea at Edinburgh last night, and I noticed a difference, thanks again :nice:

johnthehappyguy
24th-August-2004, 06:04 PM
And here is the Zen answer;

Work on doing nothing, or nearly nothing, when you're dancing.

If you watch the expert dancers it's often the poses and slower, but oh-so-stylish movements that set them apart. These things aren't moves, they're non-moves.

For us dancers that are taught moves all the time, this is the difficult path: not doing a move.

Listen to the music, the voices within it will tell you when it's the right time to not do any moves.

cheers Andy,

Zen was not built in a day !

I don't have the confidence or experience to do that yet, although I think i know what you mean,

The dancers :worthy: that spring to mind whose names I know are The Tramp, who can also be very energetic.

Similarly Gilbert , whom I have seen dancing in Edinburgh, where several ladies comment on how lovely he is to dance with.

I will try to do a bit of non- moving - What is the worst that can happen :eek:

johnthehappyguy
24th-August-2004, 06:08 PM
Notes are good.

I suggest the best idea is to take (if you have one) a video camera.

Most teachers won't object to running through moves etc. after the class for people to film - I certainly won't if you are coming to my class, and want to video. A little harder for classes like musicality, where there probably won't be that many 'moves' as such of course.

Trampy

Thanks Steve,

I would never have had the gall to ask to video the teacher. Terrific idea. :nice:

Dreadful Scathe
24th-August-2004, 09:09 PM
I will try to do a bit of non- moving - What is the worst that can happen :eek:
pigeons roost on your shoulders... :)

To add to Tramps comments on video, the teacher may not want to be filmed at the end of the class (may depends if they've had video of themselves sold on ebay or not maybe ;) ) - but it doesnt matter .....film yourself doing the moves with your partner or film some of your friends if you think they got it better. s0rt3d. u b 1337 500n.

johnthehappyguy
24th-August-2004, 11:24 PM
Thanks DSmurf,

Another great idea :clap: , videoing pals ( who have got it ) :rolleyes: if the teacher is reluctant.

:cheers:

Gojive
25th-August-2004, 12:01 AM
Hi John,

I think this is a stage that all dancers go through at some point or other!. I've been dancing for about 5 years, and tried desperately hard to learn as much as I could, to be as varied as possible - without little success.

Once I switched back to basics, and followed some tips on styling by Amir (Rock Bottoms I.O.W), my dancing suddenly took on a brand new perspective!. Even just a first move, can be made to look like umpteen different moves with a little stylish use of the spare arm, and non-standing foot (rhondas sp? come to mind).

I reckon I only use around 30 or so basic/intermediate moves now, but I try to vary the way I execute them - especially if the music is ripe for playing around to.

So my tip would be, take the 20ish beginners moves, watch how others execute them, then go and have fun with them! (the moves that is! :wink: )

:)

MartinHarper
25th-August-2004, 12:08 AM
It eventually clicked that if I want them to turn over their head, I must keep their hand up, and if i don't I must keep it low. Seems so simple once I had discovered it.

In my opinion, that's something that you should have been taught in normal classes, not had to discover for yourself.

Lou
25th-August-2004, 05:08 AM
It eventually clicked that if I want them to turn over their head, I must keep their hand up,
You must have some pretty acrobatic followers up there... :whistle:

Petal
31st-August-2004, 10:37 AM
Recently discovered why some followers were unable to follow my bad leading, - due to sloppiness when holding their hands, good dancers were unclear what I wanted them to do, .

Don't know if you are the same John i've danced with in stirling but if you are i don't have any problems following your lead.

Jive Brummie
31st-August-2004, 10:59 AM
So my tip would be, take the 20ish beginners moves, watch how others execute them, then go and have fun with them! (the moves that is! :wink: )

:)

Hi Mr J.happyguy, I can't agree with this statement from Gojive........enough :wink: hehe. It happens all the time and is perfectly natural for beginners to see all these fabby dancers doing all sorts on the floor and wanting to be able to do the same...however, more often than not they are unable to do their beginners move's correctly and are falling into the run-before-walking trap.

Practice your beginners moves, get them sorted so you're totally comfortable with them and so that you know you can lead them all and lead them well......be honest with yourself. If you're having trouble with any moves any teacher worth their salt will be happy to help you and should give you honest feedback.

Without building your foundations the rest of the production will be rocky and unsteady. So keep taking your notes and having a wee boogie in the kitchen ('cos everyone else does.....i know it :wink: ), and more importantly than anything else, have fun..........everything else will come naturally.

J.

Jive Brummie
31st-August-2004, 11:04 AM
.........sorry back on thread now...phew!.

As far as the BFG is concerned, I personally, would try not to overload too much. It's probably just me but I can't usually take in everything I'm told unless I've had it drummed into me at 100 dB. At the BFG there's going to be loads of good gen by loads of good teachers, so select the ones you feel you'd like to put most effort into, first, as your concentration will naturally wain (sp?) towards the latter stages of the event and you may not get as much benefit fom the later ones due to plain old fatigue....

johnthehappyguy
1st-September-2004, 08:44 PM
Practice your beginners moves, get them sorted so you're totally comfortable with them and so that you know you can lead them all and lead them well......be honest with yourself.

J.

Thanks very much for the advice James.

Here is an honest response -

The difficulty that I (and many others I must imagine) is knowing when are we doing it right - how do we know ?

This may seem a rather bizarre statement, however it has been my experience that one is not always aware of the "right" way to do moves. I guess that Ceroc teachers can't go through every aspect of the moves in each beginners class - Or should they be able to ?

I have had the pleasure of attending one of your classes a few weeks ago when in holiday in Perth.

( and a dance with Melanie at Jivemasters :nice: :nice: )

Prior to that I had experience of several other Ceroc teachers.

All of them have their individual good points, however it came as a bit of a revelation in your class when you were so explicit with the Yo - yo ( to paraphrase you).......rh to shoulder then to ladies rh thigh... then rotate clockwise through 180.....

Prior to attending your class I had been missing most of the 180 bit out, and no one had advised/corrected me.

If I had not experienced your teaching then I would still have this bad habit.
Since then I have been very alert to the teaching of this move with other beginners classes I go to, and would diplomatically summarise the experiences as "inconsistent" :(

What was even more of a bolt from the blue :what: :what: at your class, was the Side to Side, where you highlighted the importance that only the forearms should be touching and the shape of the letter M. I mentioned to my partner that this was the first time I had heard about the level of contact and M - she told me he always does that and they do it that way in Dundee too !.

Since then I have been taught the move again elsewhere, with no emphasis on leaving a space under your oxter. Or the letter M shape. Which is at best disappointing.

So there you have it IMHO.

I would be really interested to hear what others think of this viewpoint. :confused:

thanks again,

Johnthehappyguy

Gadget
1st-September-2004, 09:48 PM
The difficulty that I (and many others I must imagine) is knowing when are we doing it right - how do we know ?
Personally, if I get an "ooh", "ahh", or "wow" then I've nailed it. Other than that, I think it's more knowing the signals from your partner that you're doing a move wrong.
- They are not where you expected them to be
- They moved before you wanted them to
- They moved/turned somewhere you were not expecting
- You feel more tension during that move than all the others
- You loose contact unintentionally or miss a catch
- You have to lean or streach to catch
- You get hit on the side of the head
- You get trod uppon/kicked

Now I can check off at least three of these on every dance I have. Each one is due to my error in not communicating clearly enough to the lady what I want her to do, or telling her to do something, then not getting out of the way :blush:
What I have learned to do is quick improvisation and covering up mistakes so that they look like they were intended. As per the quote: "once you can fake sincerity, you've got it made."


If I had not experienced your teaching then I would still have this bad habit.
Since then I have been very alert to the teaching of this move with other beginners classes I go to, and would diplomatically summarise the experiences as "inconsistent" :(
What can I say? Scotland Must have some of the best teachers.

Any time I've seen the side to side taught, the M has been emphisised, as has the 'elasticity' and tension.

As to the Yo-Yo: I'm a bit confused - on most demos I have seen (of the "new" version) the man turns 90 degrees to the flat handed bit, then turns another 90 when pushing to either spin or turn the lady. However in the words and demo of the move (when linked to everything), the man turns 180 degrees to the flat handed hold. Is this 90-90 meant to be an asthetic thing? Both partners mirroring each other?


{edit:meant to add this bit...}
To the origional topic - I think that if you go to the BFG to meet folk, dance and have a good time, then you will. Learning from the workshops is a {very nice} bonus - but mainly, they just give us all something in common to discuss later on :D

(now I get flamed by the teachers :rolleyes: )

johnthehappyguy
1st-September-2004, 10:33 PM
Don't know if you are the same John i've danced with in stirling but if you are i don't have any problems following your lead.

Yes, it was me!!

Thanks for the compliment Jillian :flower:

Lou
2nd-September-2004, 08:44 AM
All of them have their individual good points, however it came as a bit of a revelation in your class when you were so explicit with the Yo - yo ( to paraphrase you).......rh to shoulder then to ladies rh thigh... then rotate clockwise through 180.....

Prior to attending your class I had been missing most of the 180 bit out, and no one had advised/corrected me.

Ahhh... is that the difference between the standard Yoyo & the NewCTAImprovedWashesWhiter Yoyo?

CJ
2nd-September-2004, 11:00 AM
Ahhh... is that the difference between the standard Yoyo & the NewCTAImprovedWashesWhiter Yoyo?


Aye...

Remember, nothing washes whiter than Hutton & Co. Decorators... :wink:

Jive Brummie
2nd-September-2004, 12:18 PM
Thanks very much for the advice James.

Here is an honest response -

The difficulty that I (and many others I must imagine) is knowing when are we doing it right - how do we know ?

This may seem a rather bizarre statement, however it has been my experience that one is not always aware of the "right" way to do moves. I guess that Ceroc teachers can't go through every aspect of the moves in each beginners class - Or should they be able to ?

I have had the pleasure of attending one of your classes a few weeks ago when in holiday in Perth.

( and a dance with Melanie at Jivemasters :nice: :nice: )

Prior to that I had experience of several other Ceroc teachers.

All of them have their individual good points, however it came as a bit of a revelation in your class when you were so explicit with the Yo - yo ( to paraphrase you).......rh to shoulder then to ladies rh thigh... then rotate clockwise through 180.....

Prior to attending your class I had been missing most of the 180 bit out, and no one had advised/corrected me.

If I had not experienced your teaching then I would still have this bad habit.
Since then I have been very alert to the teaching of this move with other beginners classes I go to, and would diplomatically summarise the experiences as "inconsistent" :(

What was even more of a bolt from the blue :what: :what: at your class, was the Side to Side, where you highlighted the importance that only the forearms should be touching and the shape of the letter M. I mentioned to my partner that this was the first time I had heard about the level of contact and M - she told me he always does that and they do it that way in Dundee too !.

Since then I have been taught the move again elsewhere, with no emphasis on leaving a space under your oxter. Or the letter M shape. Which is at best disappointing.

So there you have it IMHO.

I would be really interested to hear what others think of this viewpoint. :confused:

thanks again,

Johnthehappyguy


Hi J.Happyguy,

just a quickie in response to this thread, THANKYOU VERY MUCH.......you've made my day mate. As a newby teacher it's nice to get feedback from the 'students' as much as it's nice to get feedback on dancing etc as a beginner :wink: . Personally I believe that it's impossible to improve one's dancing/teaching without feedback....so, come on people, be honest.

Personally John, I prefer it if beginners came to me for advice (well, what advice i could give anyway), rather than just muddling on thinking they're doing the right thing.

:cheers: :cheers:

Many thanks, once again.

James