Serial Seducers

[Gus]

OK .. plea for help here.

Last night was DJing and saw a dancer we've inherited for another club ( :whistle:) doing drops badly and with beginners. I grabbed him as sson as I could and explained the error of his ways and handed him a copy of Pete Phillips Drops rules(tm) but I get the feeling he'll continue :sad:

So ... how can we stop 'bad seducing'? So far I've tried:

Running workshops
Handing out ettiquette guides
Naggging from stage
Demonstrating simple drops in advanced lessons
But still they continue. Any suggestions or is it a battle that we just can't win. Hang on Franck have you finished with that famous Wet Haddock you used to have for slapping serial airsteppers (vintage Forum in-joke :wink: )

[DianaS]

how are you using the womens channels Gus? I found other women really useful they pointed things out and people and showing me how not to let a guy do moves.
'Cas I'm small and light, a couple tried to throw me about, and I had little control as I often didn't know what they were about to do till it was too late!

[TheTramp]

Have any teachers ever suggested to ladies that if men start doing dips and drops when they aren't welcome, or do them badly, that it's perfectly acceptable to walk off the dance floor during the track, leaving the guy on his own??

If every lady did that, then surely the guys who do this sort of thing would get the idea.

Trampy

[Gus]

Have any teachers ever suggested to ladies that if men start doing dips and drops when they aren't welcome, or do them badly, that it's perfectly acceptable to walk off the dance floor during the track, leaving the guy on his own??


Thats a standard part of the ettiquette we teach. Aditionaly the workshops show the ladies escape techniques to get out the moves ... unfortunately, as these guys seem to prey on newbies or the less confident. The number of times the ladies actualy walk away is all too few ... though I do believe a few of the Scottish ladies have used this technique to good effect :waycool:

[spindr]

Two slightly extreme suggestions:

1). Do a class on seducers and "highlight" those that have bad technique -- by showing them to the rest of the class -- "what you can see that Neil is doing wrong here is..."

2). Make them dance the moves with you -- at which point you can definitely say why it's wrong as a follower.

SpinDr.

[Flash]

Have any teachers ever suggested to ladies that if men start doing dips and drops when they aren't welcome, or do them badly, that it's perfectly acceptable to walk off the dance floor during the track, leaving the guy on his own??

If every lady did that, then surely the guys who do this sort of thing would get the idea.

Trampy

I have on one occasion done this during my London days. But he was a serial sleeze as opposed to a serial seducer. He never asked me to dance again......
But do guys not hurt themselves? Backs? Pull muscles? Nevermind the damage they can cause to the girls they throw around.

[Sheepman]

But do guys not hurt themselves? Maybe it's a case of no sense, no feeling.

I know it certainly hurts on the (very rare) occasions when a lady throws herself into an unlead drop (OK call it bad leading if you like) I just can't fight the instinct to save her, however damaging it may be.

Greg

[DianaS]

OK .. plea for help here.


So ... how can we stop 'bad seducing'? So far I've tried:

Running workshops
Handing out ettiquette guides
Naggging from stage
Demonstrating simple drops in advanced lessons
But still they continue. Any suggestions or is it a battle that we just can't win. Hang on Franck have you finished with that famous Wet Haddock you used to have for slapping serial airsteppers (vintage Forum in-joke :wink: )

OK I've got more time to reply now, Gus..
I found that it was talking to the taxis and other more experienced dancers that was as important as having lessons and dancing with people, especially when the teachers saying one thing, but dancers are still doing it their way, sometimes to impress!

I was wondering if you have you tried asking taxis to bring the beginners back after their lesson and chat to them, commenting on what's going on on the dance floor, and in particular mentioning people who are doing dodgy stuff? It doens't have to be really obvious, but just as a conversational aside.

It is really helpful, taxis and more experienced people talked me through the guys who drop women very early on, how to avoid going into a drop if you don't want to. It was often stories of what had happened to them and the injuries it caused, but done in a way that makes you feel empowered rather than worried! Word of mouth is really effective, and women (and probably men) do talk about this kind of stuff, so it becomes part of the dance floors wisdom.

One dancer that I really respected was chatting to me and we were watching the dancing (something that I really enjoy) and she shuddered, and commented on a move that a guy had done. The conversation stays with me, as does the lesson.

Have a good weekend,
Diana

[Gus]

It was often stories of what had happened to them and the injuries it caused, but done in a way that makes you feel empowered rather than worried! Word of mouth is really effective, and women (and probably men) do talk about this kind of stuff, so it becomes part of the dance floors wisdom.


Good point. We're still in the process of agreeing exactly what is the procedure when someone sees someone dancing dangerously/badly. At some venues its the venue managers responsibiltiy, at others anyone can intervene. At another venue where I taught I gave them the full horror story treatment ... and for some this seemd to work. However, I find its the worst culprits who (for reasons that escape me) dont seem to think that the rules apply to them ... in fact I know one teacher who is a menace all on their own :sad:

At my own venue I've got no problem in banning someone if they dont want to listen to reason ... but I'd like to stop it getting that far. The comments re educating the ladies and using my crew more are very good suggetions. Thanks :flower:

[DianaS]

Good point. We're still in the process of agreeing exactly what is the procedure when someone sees someone dancing dangerously/badly. At some venues its the venue managers responsibiltiy, at others anyone can intervene. At another venue where I taught I gave them the full horror story treatment ... and for some this seemd to work. However, I find its the worst culprits who (for reasons that escape me) dont seem to think that the rules apply to them ... in fact I know one teacher who is a menace all on their own :sad:

At my own venue I've got no problem in banning someone if they dont want to listen to reason ... but I'd like to stop it getting that far. The comments re educating the ladies and using my crew more are very good suggetions. Thanks :flower:
S'alright
Failing that you could always ask them to help you demo, and use them to show all the really bad ways a move should never be done :devil:

We asked our avenue owner to put on a workshop on dance ettiquette on the basis that we would all put in a fiver and nominate the top ten poeple that we wanted to attend. He didn't go for it, but took the list of names :rofl: :rofl:

[jivegirl100]

I think all you can do is keep repeating the message very clearly from the stage, maybe you'll eventually shame the culprits into realising you're talking about them. I also think it's great you talk to them direct. I wouldn't be comfortable walking away no matter how bad the dancing - come to think of it I never, ever comment or offer an opinion on a guy's dancing unless he asks for it (even if he's really terrible). I just don't think it's my place!

But I am the shy and retiring type after all :innocent:

[jivegirl100]

Actually, I've just thought - maybe the same message apply to ladies who throw a leg in the air when doing drops? That's really bad for the guys backs, and no matter how many times I hear teachers reminding the ladies you still see those legs fly into the air...

Good drops should be more about balance than anything I guess. :nice:

Claire.

[MartinHarper]

... doing drops badly and with beginners ... how can we stop 'bad seducing'?

Teaching a stylish finish without leaning (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3504)? Not teaching or doing seducers at all? Pardon my killjoy moment...

Getting beginners to wear a badge? If you're new at a club, and/or have bad face recognition, it can be difficult remembering how advanced each dancer is.

[TheTramp]

Actually, I've just thought - maybe the same message apply to ladies who throw a leg in the air when doing drops? That's really bad for the guys backs, and no matter how many times I hear teachers reminding the ladies you still see those legs fly into the air...
I taught at the Glasgow night Tuesday class a couple of weeks ago. Decided to teach a fairly easy class, with a very basic seducer in there, so I'd have plenty of time to go over all the safety points of doing the seducer.

Did emphasize to everyone at the start about only doing seducers/dips of any kind with someone that you know is happy doing them, and you can just see from stage that some people aren't listening - usually of course, the ones that most need to listen.

I also gave a talk to the ladies on the correct way to do the dip - making sure they kept both feet on the floor, taking weight on the inside leg, sliding the outside leg out along the floor, pointing out the change in the centre of gravity. I then saw a few ladies still throwing their legs into the air (this was on a very basic first move seducer - with just (supposedly a very small dip)). So, I went through it all again, directly looking at one of the ladies who was very guilty of lifting the leg. Showed about taking your own weight in a dip again. The full works. So, we did the move once more. And yes, up went the leg. She was doing the move with an experienced dancer (who I know), so I know that he wasn't throwing her back or anything like that.

Of course, later on in the night, I had to have a word with someone who was doing his usual aerials on the fairly crowded dancefloor - he wasn't at the class, so he missed the talk about doing dips/lifts etc. But I know that he's been told on at least 2 other separate occasions by Franck about doing lifts on crowded dance floors (I was talking to Franck on both occasions when he had to break off to go and remonstrate with the gentleman in question).

Trampy

[DavidY]

Getting beginners to wear a badge? If you're new at a club, and/or have bad face recognition, it can be difficult remembering how advanced each dancer is.In Ceroc Central, beginners are encouraged to wear stickers in their first few weeks (I think they might still be called "First Mover" stickers). Not sure if other Ceroc franchises do this, but most beginners seem to wear them, and it makes taxi-dancing easier as you can easily see their (bright pink) stickers.

Of course, just because someone's not a beginner, it doesn't mean you can assume they're comfortable in drops or seducers. Even very advanced dancers may not want to do them.

[Daisy]

Good point. We're still in the process of agreeing exactly what is the procedure when someone sees someone dancing dangerously/badly. At some venues its the venue managers responsibiltiy, at others anyone can intervene. At another venue where I taught I gave them the full horror story treatment ... and for some this seemd to work. However, I find its the worst culprits who (for reasons that escape me) dont seem to think that the rules apply to them ... in fact I know one teacher who is a menace all on their own :sad:

At my own venue I've got no problem in banning someone if they dont want to listen to reason ... but I'd like to stop it getting that far. The comments re educating the ladies and using my crew more are very good suggetions. Thanks :flower:

Try offering the guy a free workshop.....this might entice him to come along and then you have a better chance of getting through to him!

A bit like giving the naughty kid in your class a lot more one to one.....get him onside and he might even end up working with you.........as opposed to against you.

:cheers:

[DianaS]

Hmmm this has given me something to think about. I was at a freestyle last night very crowded and dancing with a guy who I didn't know and he tried a drop which I refused, and then he tried another later.

I've not consciously had a no drops if you don't know me policy, but I'm thinking that I may comment when asked to dance that I'm not doing drops if the dance floors very full.

Refusing him twice did feel like I was spoiling the dance, and he was a visitor to our venue, so it also felt quite inhospitable. I'm just wondering if theres a gentler way of handing this.

[Dazzle]

There are lots of things "supposed" to happen as part of dancing etiquette, but they don't. I ALWAYS ask a lady I have never danced with before if she has any injuries or if there are any moves she would rather I did not do. I used to be bewildered by the shocked looks on their faces, but not any more, when they reply "I've never been asked that before!" .

Even when I ask, and ladies say they are fine with drops, I can soon tell if they have little or no idea and quickly refrain from further attempts. :confused:

I always tell my partner that if a man doesn't ask her the above questions that she is pro-active and tells them herself, (particularly about her broken wrist at the moment! :whistle: ).

Ladies, what is your preference?

[Andreas]

Often when I teach drops and leans I also tell the ladies how to walk out of them. With one person I have done such a good jo that when she is not in the mood for drops and dips I have to be extremely fast to land one :rofl:

The 'walk off the floor' solution is only acceptable if the ladies explicitely asked the guy not to drop beforehand. I personally don't like 'excuses' but something along the lines of 'can we please do no drops, my back hurts' is fine, I think. Unless you ladies have the guts and tell straight out that he is dangerous.

[TheTramp]

The 'walk off the floor' solution is only acceptable if the ladies explicitely asked the guy not to drop beforehand. I personally don't like 'excuses' but something along the lines of 'can we please do no drops, my back hurts' is fine, I think. Unless you ladies have the guts and tell straight out that he is dangerous.
Oh? So it's up to the lady to stop the guy throwing her into dips and drops, not the guy being a gentleman and asking beforehand??

Is that one difference between Ceroc in this country, and Ceroc down under, where drops and lifts are much more the norm?

Trampy

[Andreas]

Oh? So it's up to the lady to stop the guy throwing her into dips and drops, not the guy being a gentleman and asking beforehand??

Is that one difference between Ceroc in this country, and Ceroc down under, where drops and lifts are much more the norm?

Trampy

Meeeoowww

I thought we had established the fact that the guy is incorrigible ;)

[Gus]

The 'walk off the floor' solution is only acceptable if the ladies explicitely asked the guy not to drop beforehand. I personally don't like 'excuses' but something along the lines of 'can we please do no drops, my back hurts' is fine, I think. Unless you ladies have the guts and tell straight out that he is dangerous.

NO! Sorry but the commonly accepted convention is that the guy asks before doing a drop ... full-stop. Please see Pete Phiilips Drops Ettiquette notes(TM) .. available for free at al good MJ venues :wink:

[Andreas]

NO! Sorry but the commonly accepted convention is that the guy asks before doing a drop ... full-stop. Please see Pete Phiilips Drops Ettiquette notes(TM) .. available for free at al good MJ venues :wink:

Fair enough. Learning every day.

You do, though allow the uys to walk off the floor as well should there be a lady that throws herself into non-existin drops, right? Would only be fair. I haven't had that in the UK yet after only one nights dancing but I have had it often in the past.

[Lounge Lizard]

NO! Sorry but the commonly accepted convention is that the guy asks before doing a drop ... full-stop. Please see Pete Phiilips Drops Ettiquette notes(TM) .. available for free at al good MJ venues :wink:To cover the points raised
i have stood on stage at Camber, Sothport, Butlins etc and in my own direct style have asked/told/nagged the guys to ask first & the ladies not to assume

I printed the do's & dont's (printed in basic form on another thread)and offered them free to EVERY MJ organisation and sent about 1000 flyers to many clubs - I even offered a free mid week class anywhere in the south to teach safe drops & seducers - had one intertested organiser.


I have seen a major MJ organisation advertise and run a drops workshop and the teacher informed me afterwards they had never taught these moves before. The moves were well taught but the safety pointers were missed cos they can take a long time to learn

Ladies walking off - ask the guy not to do the move, if he ignores your request walk off - if he kept grabbing your breasts you would walk off, dangerous drops have potentialy far more risk (sorry I know it is a bad annalogy but gets the point accross).

I do dot belive any complicated drop or seducer should be taught from the stage and are workshop moves - even at advanced classes like Hipsters many dancers get it wrong.
BUT
As most dancers do not go to the workshops to learn them properly (where the teacher's can dance with each individual) it is better to teach the moves in a class than not at all.
Peter Phillips

[Andreas]

I printed the do's & dont's (printed in basic form on another thread)and offered them free to EVERY MJ organisation and sent about 1000 flyers to many clubs - I even offered a free mid week class anywhere in the south to teach safe drops & seducers - had one intertested organiser.

Thanks for that Peter, much appreciated!



I have seen a major MJ organisation advertise and run a drops workshop and the teacher informed me afterwards they had never taught these moves before. The moves were well taught but the safety pointers were missed cos they can take a long time to learn

I kind of second that. Teachin the safety aspects of drops as much as any other moves is an art. So putting them into workshops has its benefits. However, it also has draw-backs: general teachers will never really learn it ecause they have literally no exposure to them and also no experience.


Ladies walking off - ask the guy not to do the move, if he ignores your request walk off - if he kept grabbing your breasts you would walk off, dangerous drops have potentialy far more risk (sorry I know it is a bad annalogy but gets the point accross).

Exactly my point. If the uy ignores the request walk ut don't just bugger off. I luckily haven't been accused of such thing but I had no idea you guys over here ask first. I considered it my responsibility to start with easy stuff. Matter of fact due to their lack of experience I never did any advanced drops with any of the ladies I danced with on Thursday. But I would have been quite puzzled if one had just walked off the floor without telling me why.


I do dot belive any complicated drop or seducer should be taught from the stage and are workshop moves - even at advanced classes like Hipsters many dancers get it wrong.
BUT
As most dancers do not go to the workshops to learn them properly (where the teacher's can dance with each individual) it is better to teach the moves in a class than not at all.
Peter Phillips

Agreed that there are drops that are better left for workshops. Nevertheless I think it is obvious that the problem lies in the basics to drops and those can very well e tauht in class environment. On the other hand, I would probably pt to do it exactly the other way around. Have a compulsory workshop for everybody who wants to attend classes that cover drops. In such a workshop I would go to grounds with the basics and safety and floor craft, you name it - until it comes out of their ears. Trust me I am good at that one :lol: This would then allow to teach drops in classes and when you refer to safety aspects people would know what you are talking about.

As usuall, this is no 'works all the time' kind of thing but it has a good track history.

[TheTramp]

You do, though allow the guys to walk off the floor as well should there be a lady that throws herself into non-existin drops, right? Would only be fair. I haven't had that in the UK yet after only one nights dancing but I have had it often in the past.
Fair point. Of course there are some women who throw themselves into drops - maybe the 'correct' thing to do would be for the guy to walk off if they did.

Of course, ladies don't walk off, and neither do the guys. Sometimes I think that it would be cool if they did!!

And fair point. Very few men do actually ask first....

Trampy

[Andreas]

Fair point. Of course there are some women who throw themselves into drops - maybe the 'correct' thing to do would be for the guy to walk off if they did.

Of course, ladies don't walk off, and neither do the guys. Sometimes I think that it would be cool if they did!!

And fair point. Very few men do actually ask first....

Trampy


:yeah: :cheers:


BTW folks, please excuse the occasionally missing letter in my posts. The keyboard I am working on s pretty crap and I can't hook up my iBook to the wireless network at the moment to resolve the problem. Good excuse, ey? :D

[jivecat]

Fair point. Of course there are some women who throw themselves into drops - maybe the 'correct' thing to do would be for the guy to walk off if they did.

Of course, ladies don't walk off, and neither do the guys. Sometimes I think that it would be cool if they did!!

And fair point. Very few men do actually ask first....

Trampy

But some conscientious guys do, and thanks for that, lads. I guess when you're at a busy freestyle, dancing with a lot of unfamiliar partners in an evening, then it seems impracticable to remember to ask every single time.

I wouldn't advocate walking off the floor because I think that's the ultimate in humiliation and I would want to die if anyone did that to me. However, it could be the main option if all other avenues have been tried, e.g. saying firmly at the outset of the dance "I don't do drops etc" and checking that you've been heard. After the dance has started is too late as if the guy has already led a drop the lady has little choice but to go with it.

Like Jivegirl100 I'd like more ideas about how to tactfully help leaders to improve their technique. Even though I've been dancing several years now I'm very reluctant to offer suggestions for improvements (i.e. criticisms) to guys for fear of giving offence. Even though I know they're doing something wrong I don't feel sure enough of my ground to start telling other people what to do. Sometimes I say I find a certain move rather difficult, could they just run it through with me again, (bat eyelids) which often leads to useful discussion and practice for both parties! This works well with nervous & under-confident leaders.

The other group, the cocky and over-confident, are the least easy to forgive, as they throw you into a wonky and off-balance drop, drag you out of it off the beat and hurl you into a staggery, wrong-direction, shoulder-spin before you've even got back to the vertical, all with a complacent grin at their masculine prowess. I gather that getting the lady's hair to brush the floor during the drop adds at least 10% to their p---s size.
(Oops, sorry, up the wooden hill to Bedfordshire!)

[Andreas]

A good means for ladies to assist guys is by thinking HOW SHOULD THE DROP BE DONE TO MAKE ME FEEL SAFE.

That way you can actually figure out where you want to be in a drop, how you can take your weight efficiently and, most importantly, how you can get yourself into this safe position to be dropped.

The simple fact that you
- position yourself very close to the guy
- take your own weight
- drop slowly and controlled
- drop straight down and not away from or into the guy
- can help coming up by pushing your pelvis forwards (in front of your suppport foot)
- don't tilt your shoulders
- exercise arm and head lines in the process of the drop, not once you have reached to lowest point
- keep good body tension
- etc.

will stipulate the following:

The guy will

- feel at ease
- notice that you do something others don't and what you do is good
- not be strained

- possibly even comment on the ease of things, which provides you with the great opportunity to point out what you did. That way you help less experienced or simply lazy guys to improve immensely!

Hope that is good for a few ideas.

[filthycute]

I printed the do's & dont's (printed in basic form on another thread)and offered them free to EVERY MJ organisation and sent about 1000 flyers to many clubs - I even offered a free mid week class anywhere in the south to teach safe drops & seducers - had one intertested organiser.

Peter Phillips

Aaaaah, there's your problem Peter....... You need to bring your drops & seducers class to The North, and I mean the proper north (Scotland), not that pretend English north :rofl:

James x x
(BTW, am having to write under FC's log in at the mo' 'cos I can't log in myself :tears: ...technical difficulties and all that)

[MartinHarper]

I do think it works better, though, if the lady says up front if she doesn't want to do drops. If the guy asks, then there's an implicit pressure on the lady to say yes, and if she says no then that's a negative point in the dance. Not a serious one, but it stops the dance becoming that perfect dance, because there's been a bit of a mini-clash of wills in the middle.

On the other hand, if the lady says "I don't want to do drops this dance", then the man can (lie and) respond in a positive way - eg "Oh good, I never liked drops" or "This song's no good for drops anyway, I reckon" or "what are drops?". I think that's a better foundation for a harmonious dance.

[Andreas]

I do think it works better, though, if the lady says up front if she doesn't want to do drops. If the guy asks, then there's an implicit pressure on the lady to say yes, and if she says no then that's a negative point in the dance. Not a serious one, but it stops the dance becoming that perfect dance, because there's been a bit of a mini-clash of wills in the middle.

On the other hand, if the lady says "I don't want to do drops this dance", then the man can (lie and) respond in a positive way - eg "Oh good, I never liked drops" or "This song's no good for drops anyway, I reckon" or "what are drops?". I think that's a better foundation for a harmonious dance.

:yeah: :cheers: :clap:

[Lounge Lizard]

Aaaaah, there's your problem Peter....... You need to bring your drops & seducers class to The North, and I mean the proper north (Scotland), not that pretend English north :rofl:

James x x
(BTW, am having to write under FC's log in at the mo' 'cos I can't log in myself :tears: ...technical difficulties and all that)Never been asked back :tears: I would jump at chance to teach another drops workshop in Scotland - but free offer has long since passed :wink:
PP

[TheTramp]

I do think it works better, though, if the lady says up front if she doesn't want to do drops. If the guy asks, then there's an implicit pressure on the lady to say yes, and if she says no then that's a negative point in the dance. Not a serious one, but it stops the dance becoming that perfect dance, because there's been a bit of a mini-clash of wills in the middle.

On the other hand, if the lady says "I don't want to do drops this dance", then the man can (lie and) respond in a positive way - eg "Oh good, I never liked drops" or "This song's no good for drops anyway, I reckon" or "what are drops?". I think that's a better foundation for a harmonious dance.
Sorry??

So, what you're saying is, that it's better to get that 'mini-clash of wills' out of the way right at the start?

I honestly don't see the difference between the man asking the lady if she's okie doing drops, and the lady telling the guy straight up that she doesn't want to do them, in terms of it being 'more harmonious'.

Indeed, you could say that it would be less 'harmonious' in that if the guy had no plans on doing drops, there wouldn't ever need to be a 'clash of wills'.

I'd agree that if the lady felt that she was likely to be doing drops with a particular person, then if she didn't want to, she should say so. On the other hand, just because she doesn't, then why should a gentleman assume that it's alright to start doing drops with her.

Trampy

[Andreas]

Sorry??I honestly don't see the difference between the man asking the lady if she's okie doing drops, and the lady telling the guy straight up that she doesn't want to do them, in terms of it being 'more harmonious'.

yup, it is kind of odd ... if the lady says nothing the uy can assume drops spins whatever are fine.


Indeed, you could say that it would be less 'harmonious' in that if the guy had no plans on doing drops, there wouldn't ever need to be a 'clash of wills'.

BUT ... correct, if the guy has no intentions then her comment would stirr.


I'd agree that if the lady felt that she was likely to be doing drops with a particular person, then if she didn't want to, she should say so. On the other hand, just because she doesn't, then why should a gentleman assume that it's alright to start doing drops with her.

Trampy

Hehehe it is kind of a no-win situation, isn't it? :eek:

[Tiggerbabe]

I only know of one lady who has walked off during a dance, and this was only after repeating to the gentleman she was dancing with (having already mentioned at the start of their dance) that she didn't like to do dips and drops. :sick: and he just kept on doing them.
I think it is, unfortunately, a problem with a handful of guys that if you said to them that you don't want to do dips and drops, they interpret this as meaning you don't want to do dips and drops with other men, but because "they" are so good/safe/fantastic/wonderful/technically brilliant......... :rolleyes: you didn't mean them at all :eek: In fact to some it seems like a challenge :tears:
I'm not often asked in the weekly classes or weekend parties we have here, but this is because people are well known to each other and I'm sure the guys are aware of the girls in their area who don't like dips and drops.
I have been asked when I've gone down to Blackpool, London etc or have been dancing here with people who are visiting :hug: :hug:

[Heather]

:rofl: :rofl: I wonder who that lady was, eh Sheena !!!!!! :rofl: :rofl:
:hug: :kiss:
Heather,
XX

[MartinHarper]

So, what you're saying is, that it's better to get that 'mini-clash of wills' out of the way right at the start?

No, I'm saying that the chivalrous male, on learning of the female's desire not to do drops, can immediately give way and be positive about the opportunity of a drop-free dance. No clash of wills necessary. If the male asks, then the female must either agree to doing drops when she doesn't really want to (bad) or else rebuff the male (also bad).


Indeed, you could say that it would be less 'harmonious' in that if the guy had no plans on doing drops, there wouldn't ever need to be a 'clash of wills'.

In such a situation, the lady says "I don't feel like doing drops today" and the guy says "cool, neither do I!", and means it. No clash of wills necessary. Also, harmonious: lady need not dance defensively, because she knows that the guy isn't going to throw her into unasked drops; guy need not panic that lady will dive into unled drops; neither need worry that the dance is somehow incomplete for their partner without drops.


On the other hand, just because she doesn't, then why should a gentleman assume that it's alright to start doing drops with her?

I don't recall anyone saying the opposite. :)

[TheTramp]

No, I'm saying that the chivalrous male, on learning of the female's desire not to do drops, can immediately give way and be positive about the opportunity of a drop-free dance. No clash of wills necessary. If the male asks, then the female must either agree to doing drops when she doesn't really want to (bad) or else rebuff the male (also bad).
You were the one who brought up the 'clash of wills'.

Personally, if I ask a lady if she's comfortable doing drops, and she says no, then I don't do drops. I don't see why that's bad. There certainly hasn't been any 'clash of wills'. Which is why I keep putting it into inverted commas.

What I've tried to say, is that either the lady can initially say that she doesn't want to do drops, or, before the man does any, he should ask if the lady is comfortable, giving her the option to say that she doesn't want to do them. Either is perfectably acceptable. There is never any 'clash of wills'. To say that there might be was (IMHO) quite ridiculous. I'm sorry if you missed out on the intended sarcasm in my earlier post.

Any time you ask a question, which gets a negative response, it doesn't mean that there's a 'clash of wills', just a difference of opinion.


In such a situation, the lady says "I don't feel like doing drops today" and the guy says "cool, neither do I!", and means it. No clash of wills necessary. Also, harmonious: lady need not dance defensively, because she knows that the guy isn't going to throw her into unasked drops; guy need not panic that lady will dive into unled drops; neither need worry that the dance is somehow incomplete for their partner without drops.
What happens if the man did feel like doing drops? You're now suggesting that he should lie to his partner. Probably bottling up a need to do wills inside him. Maybe if he has a couple of partners in a row who he wanted to do drops with, but are pre-rejecting his question to do said drops, he's now so frustrated that with the first lady who doesn't immediately say that she'd prefer that he doesn't do drops will immediately get viciously thrown to the floor without regard for her wishes. Of course, this is ridiculous. But then (IMHO), so is what you're saying.

Sorry for anyone else reading this. It seems to have developed into a purile arguement. I just couldn't resist someone being (IMHO) frankly so ridiculous, suggesting that there may be a 'clash of wills' because a man asks if he can do drops, and the woman responding negatively. I'm going to shut up now, and not say anything else on the matter.

Trampy

[MartinHarper]

Perhaps I can resolve this argument (peurile or otherwise)?

Personally, in general, I would slightly prefer intermediate/advanced ladies to say up front if they don't want to do drops, rather than waiting for me to ask, for the reasons given, however badly expressed. It appears that Trampy has no preference on the matter. Viva la difference! To end on a point of agreement, though:


If the lady felt that she was likely to be doing drops with a particular person, then if she didn't want to, she should say so.

Well put. :)