Price for 'A list' workshops [Archive]

Gus

12th-August-2004, 01:23 PM

bigdjiver

12th-August-2004, 02:37 PM

Part of my business is running workshops, both by myself but primarily by 'A list' instructors, e.g. Viktor & Lydia, Amir etc. Based on prior experiences I've pegged the price of these workshops back to £25 ... but recently I've started questioning this. Looking round various dance websites I see that the majority of Modenr Jive clubs charge at least £25 for their workshops and some a lot more.

No offence to standard teachers but it doesn't seem right that a promoter can run a workshop with a teacher costing about £100 and charge the same for an event that can cost another promoter over £500. Can you compare the teaching by a standard MJ instructor to the teaching by one of the Teaching Elite? I must admit that I would find it hard to charge the same for a workshop taught by myself as a workshop taught by Viktor :sick:

Are we underpricing the A list workshops ... or charging too much for the standard workshops? The master of self-promotion and opposition undermining in action again.
Advert: Gus runs classes by the best, cheap.
dig: The opposition run expensive workshops with inferior teachers.
The pretext: pricing policy.
The answer: A workshop is a one-off thing, few people attend the same workshop by the same teacher twice, as a learning experience, (unless it is to learn how to run such a workshop). As a commercial proposition you charge as much as the market will bear.
As for the dig at the opposition, there are many superb teachers in the MJ world without the "name", and they run excellent workshops, which are justly always sold out, and they have no problem at the prices asked, so why do it for less?

Gus

12th-August-2004, 02:59 PM

As for the dig at the opposition, there are many superb teachers in the MJ world without the "name", and they run excellent workshops, which are justly always sold out, and they have no problem at the prices asked, so why do it for less?

I dont remember having a dig at any opposition. I clearly stated that I run workshops and charge the £25 whereas I see that those workshops are inferior to those provided by some instructors on the circuit. I would hope that you can agree that some teachers are better than others. If my terminology of saying 'A List' was taken a derisory to other teachers ... well, I dont know what to say. Even in Ceroc Central area ... would you exepect all the teachers to be able to charge the samne as, say, Emma :worthy: ?

The point of the question was to establish as to whether there is a price above which dancers aren't prepared to pay ... no matter who the instructor is. NO hidden agenda, no dissing 'opposition' .. no self promotion ... just a question ... OK?

MartinHarper

12th-August-2004, 03:06 PM

TRDC has a "summa skool" (or some equally faux hip name) of workshops during their Summer break, all of which are too far south for me. If I recall, they're roughly the same price as the normal classes: seven quid for an evening of two workshops, four quid for just one.

What exactly is the difference between a class and a workshop, anyway?

Will

12th-August-2004, 03:25 PM

What exactly is the difference between a class and a workshop, anyway?
About 3.5 hours

TheTramp

12th-August-2004, 03:34 PM

Viktor & Lydia
Gus...

I hate to be the one to break the news mate. But Viktor and Lydia actually split up nearly 2 years ago. She's not done anything in modern jive for over a year now...

Sorry.

Trampy

Emma

12th-August-2004, 03:40 PM

I suppose it depends upon supply and demand - I'd be prepared to pay more for a workshop which met my perceived needs (so a published syllabus might 'help' me sign up), for a workshop by someone I know will deliver me excellent value and be a lot of fun, by someone like Franck or Adam, or possibly for 'names' such as David and Lily, or Amir.

At the end of the day though, I'd find it hard to pay more than £25, from a cashflow point of view (and it's perfectly possible to attend workshops by most of the above for less!).

As bigdjiver says the commercial wosdon is that you charge as much as you can get away with. (I know this as I read it in a book on business so it must be true!! :cool: ) There must be a swings and roundabouts element to this though, as I'd probably do more were they cheaper :nice:

philsmove

12th-August-2004, 03:40 PM

Hey come down to Bristol this weekend my local class is doing FREE lessons

Will

12th-August-2004, 03:42 PM

dig: The opposition run expensive workshops with inferior teachers.

Actually bigdjiver, I have to disagree with you there. That isn't his dig. The dig is that he has recently been trying to get me to agree to do a workshop for him called "Everything Will knows about dancing" and only charge 50p for it on the grounds that I'm Z-List :mad: (can you believe he even told me that it's not as much of an insult as I thought because 50p is a lot of money up north! :angry: )

Well Z-list or not, The Tramp has already signed up so I'm obviously not that unpopular.

TheTramp

12th-August-2004, 03:52 PM

Well Z-list or not, The Tramp has already signed up so I'm obviously not that unpopular.
Yeah. But it does have to be said, that Gus is doing me a special deal of letting me onto your workshop for 5p, Will.

(And paying my petrol to get there, putting me up in a 5* hotel, and providing me with a posse of dancing girls). :whistle:

Trampy

ChrisA

12th-August-2004, 03:52 PM

I think perceived value depends not only on who the teacher is, but the content of the workshop, and, perhaps more contentiously, who else is likely to be going.

For example, suppose it was a lead/follow workshop by Amir. Great so far.

Suppose it was even for fixed partners. Even better, if Jayne felt like doing it with me :waycool:

Now, I wouldn't claim to be a fantastic lead, but I have picked up one or two things over the last couple of years and made a bit of a start at putting them into practice :blush:

But suppose I happened to know that 80% of the people going had no concept of compression/leverage/frame, etc. Clearly much of the time spent in the workshop would have to be on them - and they would end up benefiting much more than I would. :tears:

Great for them, but I hope this illustrates why I'd be reluctant to sign up for an expensive workshop without knowing quite accurately what was to be covered, how many people were going to be on it (because of course the more there are, the less individual attention one will get), and as much as possible about the other people going.

Tricky I know, and not necessarily terribly practical, but there it is. I guess this is why private lessons :eek: are really the only option if you want to know exactly what you're getting.

Chris

MartinHarper

12th-August-2004, 03:53 PM

Surely, it's got to depend on class size too? If the teacher costs five times as much, but the class size is five times larger, then I'd expect the price to be about the same.

Gus

12th-August-2004, 04:05 PM

Surely, it's got to depend on class size too? If the teacher costs five times as much, but the class size is five times larger, then I'd expect the price to be about the same.

Excellent point. There have been some 'workshops' run with up to 100 dancers ... to me that feels more like a class. On the other side a good drops or airsteps class would be limited to (say) 20 dancers form a safety aspect ... so how does a promoter make any profit from those workshops?

Zuhal

12th-August-2004, 04:05 PM

It is entirely possible that a large percentage of the punters do not know who the Teacher is.

Just because a particular teacher is not well known and doesn't feature on Mr Gus's "A-list" doesn't necessarily diminish the quality of the delivery.

Have a look around and see the number of workshops where there are only places for men remaining. i.e. the ladies sign up.

The promoter will charge what they can. Business will soon drop off if the punter does not get value for money. For some, value for money may mean a big name but for us lesser mortals with a lot to learn........

Zuhal

Gordon J Pownall

12th-August-2004, 04:44 PM

Part of my business is running workshops, both by myself but primarily by 'A list' instructors, e.g. Viktor & Lydia, Amir etc.

NAMES USED ARE EXAMPLES ONLY AND NO OFFENCE IS INTENDED THROUGH INCLUSION OR OMMISSION however.....

...and when did the powers that be decide that Viktor / Amir et al were 'A list' and that John Sweeney, myself, Adam Nathanson, Franck and others to name but a few are not A list.

What are the criteria for being on the A list as opposed to the B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z lists (supposing they actually exist...?)

Is Viktor an A list teacher for teaching Argentinian Tango, or is he a L list for tango and only C list for Rumba...etc., etc., etc., but A list for Salsa. :confused:

How do I get to be A list...???

Does the ability of the demonstrator used by the teacher define list position... i.e. brilliant teacher but crap, ugly demo with no dress sense therefore potential A list is relegated to F list because of this association....?

Or, teacher is pants but she has a stunning Adonis as a demo - bump her up a few notches...???

No offence to standard teachers ...

Errr....actually offence taken Gus..... :angry:

How do you define standard ...?

I do not teach the same as Adam, you, Mikey, Andy McG, Lorna from Scotland etc., etc., etc.,...???

Yet we all teach modern Jive - perhaps we are 'A list' and because the likes of which you have mentioned above do not teach like me, they are not A list...???

Totally confused here,......??? :confused:

Don't understand what you are getting at....other than causing offence......and making sweeping value judgements about every modern jive teacher except those on this supposed mystical A list......contained in your own reality :confused:

Can you compare the teaching by a standard MJ instructor to the teaching by one of the Teaching Elite?

OOOOOOhh errrrrrrrr - here's that word again - standard...???? :mad:

...and not only are the likes of every MJ teacher not on this mystical A list standard - we also have to live with the shame of not being :-

ELITE

:tears: Well - sorry Gus - nasty post with sweeping value judgements that IMHO are offensive...... :mad:

...and anyway...My mum thinks I'm A list and elite so yah boo sucks to you..... :whistle:

EVERYONE - PLEASE FEEL FREE TO EXPRESS YOUR OPION ABOUT YOUR LOCAL MJ TEACHER AT YOUR REGULAR VENUE - I'M SURE THAT AT LEAST ONE PERSON AT EACH NIGHT RUN DURING THE WEEK THINKS THEIR TEACHER IS ELITE AND A LIST BECAUSE YOU GO BACK THERE EACH WEEK TO ENGAGE IN THE ACTIVITY THAT SHOULD HAVE NO HIERARCHY...

WHO IS ON YOUR A LIST (NAMES PLEASE BELOW) :flower: :yeah:

ChrisA

12th-August-2004, 05:11 PM

Rant snipped

I suspect that being offended for not being included on some arbitrary person's A-List of teachers probably excludes you from the real one.

How does the saying go?

"Those that mind do not matter, whereas those that matter do not mind."

Chris

PS But it was a fab rant. The best I've read for a long time. Far better than any of mine, so respect. Definitely an A-list rant, that. IMHO :whistle:

Gus

12th-August-2004, 05:12 PM

:tears: Well - sorry Gus - nasty post with sweeping value judgements that IMHO are offensive...... :mad:

Good God Almighty !!! What is with all the egos today. This thread was supposed to be about ascertaining what Jo Public thought about paying a premium price for a premium instructor. Now it seems to be about instrcutors getting their knickers in a twist because I put an EXAMPLE of instructors up and their name wasn't on it.!

Right ... chillied a bit ... will try to answer your points...

...and when did the powers that be decide that Viktor / Amir et al were 'A list' and that John Sweeney, myself, Adam Nathanson, Franck and others to name but a few are not A list.

No-one said you werent A list. Would it be so bad if in my eyes, though, you guys weren't on the same level as Viktor, N&N et al ... aren't I entitled to a personal opinion :confused:

Yet we all teach modern Jive - perhaps we are 'A list' and because the likes of which you have mentioned above do not teach like me, they are not A list...???

Like it or not that is a vast difference (percieved or otherwise) between teachers. In football would you say that Beckham plays the same football as some lad who plays in the Sunday league??? I only quoted a number of people who are on my A list from a promoters perspective There are hodrdes of excellent teachers across the UK, but some are better known and some other are just better than others.

I've now seen Nelson Rose teach and understand what the fuss is about ... great teacher (and DJ) ... but with no reputation up here. I would find it very difficult to charge the same price for him as I did for Amir ... business fact. Just because someone is not on the A list ... SO WHAT ... I'm quite happy with being a 'standard' MJ teachcr ... better than some, worse than some ... I'll never make the A list in anyones books ... but that doesnt want to make me pull down other instructors to my level.

Don't understand what you are getting at....other than causing offence......and making sweeping value judgements about every modern jive teacher except those on this supposed mystical A list......contained in your own reality :confused:

If you dont undetsand what I'm saying what about a PM? I've made no sweeping value judgements ... I havent said who is or isnt in my A list ,,, because thats a (changeable) list I have in my head of who is and isnt saleable. If your guys think you are the best thing since sliced bread ... great ... but I dont see how that has anything to do with the point I was trying to make :angry:

Hey DD/DS ... fancy being my bodyguards this weekend ... got visions of hordes of 'standrd' Ceroc teachers taking out a fatwa on me :wink:

spindr

12th-August-2004, 06:18 PM

Surely those that are "A list" don't need to be told that they are? :devil:

SpinDr.

RobC

12th-August-2004, 07:10 PM

Does the ability of the demonstrator used by the teacher define list position... i.e. brilliant teacher but crap, ugly demo with no dress sense therefore potential A list is relegated to F list because of this association....?

Or, teacher is pants but she has a stunning Adonis as a demo - bump her up a few notches...???

Trust a Ceroc CTA brain-washee to bring looks into the equation :devil:
Reminds me of the rumour I once heard about the Ceroc 'rules' for picking demonstrators ..... :angry:

bigdjiver

12th-August-2004, 07:13 PM

Actually bigdjiver, I have to disagree with you there. That isn't his dig. The dig is that he has recently been trying to get me to agree to do a workshop for him called "Everything Will knows about dancing" and only charge 50p for it on the grounds that I'm Z-List :mad: (can you believe he even told me that it's not as much of an insult as I thought because 50p is a lot of money up north! :angry: )

Well Z-list or not, The Tramp has already signed up so I'm obviously not that unpopular. I'll teach anybody everything I know for free, but even then I get asked for refunds.

bigdjiver

12th-August-2004, 07:40 PM

I dont remember having a dig at any opposition. I clearly stated that I run workshops and charge the £25 whereas I see that those workshops are inferior to those provided by some instructors on the circuit. I would hope that you can agree that some teachers are better than others. If my terminology of saying 'A List' was taken a derisory to other teachers ... well, I dont know what to say. Even in Ceroc Central area ... would you exepect all the teachers to be able to charge the samne as, say, Emma :worthy: ?

The point of the question was to establish as to whether there is a price above which dancers aren't prepared to pay ... no matter who the instructor is. NO hidden agenda, no dissing 'opposition' .. no self promotion ... just a question ... OK? Just a question might be "How much would you be willing to pay for a specialist 3.5 hour workshop, and how much would that depend on who was teaching, numbers attending, other factors?"

Statements like "I organise good workshops for £25" is self promotion, which is something we have to put up with from several contributors.

Once you move into comparisons, like "mine are better and cheaper", you are implying others are not such good value, and are into "knocking copy", which is frowned upon by advertising regulators, because there is usually selective criteria. The dance gods might give a workshop on Rockall for £5, but it would probably not be good value for money.

It is a good question and topic, as are many that you raise, shame about the fluff around it.

Lounge Lizard

12th-August-2004, 08:56 PM

It is a good question and topic, as are many that you raise, shame about the fluff around it.yes but Gus's fluff is worthwhile just to read your replies

The great thing about a public forum is the different take that people have on a given posting.

I would rather read threads that state 'hey my workshop/class is the best how much should I charge (and I did not read gus's posting that way) and the ensuing discussion, than read about the events in forum big brother or the hollow tree (nothing personal guys I have NEVER seen big brother, Jungle survival pop idol or simmilar stuff on TV)

So Gus please keep the postings the same and Bigjiver keep taking shots at him (and others)
LL

Yogi_Bear

12th-August-2004, 10:42 PM

Reminds me of the rumour I once heard about the Ceroc 'rules' for picking demonstrators ..... :angry:
..which are? I have often wondered....
BTW, this is a fantastic thread to lurk in..
:clap:

RobC

13th-August-2004, 07:53 PM

..which are? I have often wondered....
BTW, this is a fantastic thread to lurk in..
:clap:
As far as I'm concerned, it was just a rumour as I never had it substantiated by anyone, so I'm not going to propagate it any further....

.... but from a casual observer, knowing the CTA's penchant for young attractive teachers, it not a huge leap to think they might expect the same from a demonstrator :whistle:

foxylady

13th-August-2004, 09:43 PM

As far as I'm concerned, it was just a rumour as I never had it substantiated by anyone, so I'm not going to propagate it any further....

.... but from a casual observer, knowing the CTA's penchant for young attractive teachers, it not a huge leap to think they might expect the same from a demonstrator :whistle:

My understanding was that teachers picked their own demonstrators... However knowing the teachers that I know, I wouldn't be surprised if young and gorgeous would be their criteria, primarily in order to make themselves look good....

Oh dear - yet another can of worms..... :wink:

Dazzle

13th-August-2004, 11:59 PM

There seem to be far too many over sensitive people on here, IMHO, who rather than looking for the reasons for postings prefer to look for anything they can find to complain about or take offence to :confused: . I haven't posted very often :worthy: , only when I feel I can contribute positively or in direct response to the main theme.

On Gus' theme of workshop pricing, I guess it is like all goods and services, whatever their nature, a question of supply and demand. In addition,there is the quality of the product as well as the unit price! There are some instructors offering courses not available elsewhere, the demand will be greater as they are different and the price also. However, there will be a point at which the consumer will not go beyond. As I write this post would indicate that is the £25 mark, regardless of the instructor.

I recently attended an Amir Tango Jive Workshop :clap: . Fabulous as I expected, a new outlook and a whole new way of thinking. but, the cost did factor in to the decision to attend. Everyone has a budget to work within, some are obviously greater than others. No matter who the instructor, or whatever the product, if I cannot afford it, I cannot attend or have it. Factor of life! Roll on the Lottery win! :yeah:

Probably too much fluff for some people maybe? :whistle:

Gordon J Pownall

14th-August-2004, 01:26 AM

.... but from a casual observer, knowing the CTA's penchant for young attractive teachers, it not a huge leap to think they might expect the same from a demonstrator :whistle:

Why, thank you kindly Sir.....you can demo for me anytime...!!!!

Gordon...xxx :hug: :hug: :hug:

bigdjiver

14th-August-2004, 08:04 AM

There seem to be far too many over sensitive people on here, IMHO, who rather than looking for the reasons for postings Reasons? Is it a question, an ad, a bit of mischief, or all of these?

... I haven't posted very often :worthy: , only when I feel I can contribute positively or in direct response to the main theme. this topic has been infiltrated, diluted and confused by another, "Does CEROC only use young attractive demonstrators?" This is also mischevious. How can CEROC defend themselves? We use XXXX, and he/she is really old and ugly?

On Gus' theme of workshop pricing, I guess it is like all goods and services, whatever their nature, a question of supply and demand. In addition,there is the quality of the product as well as the unit price! Right! The question has a simple obvious answer, so why post it, unless it is a pretext for an ad and a dig at the competition?

There are some instructors offering courses not available elsewhere, the demand will be greater as they are different and the price also. Nope. The demand (and the price) may be greater, less, or even the same.
However, there will be a point at which the consumer will not go beyond. As I write this post would indicate that is the £25 mark, regardless of the instructor. I think you mean poll, and polls can be poor indicators of pricing. People book private lessons, which can be regarded as a workshop for 1. Ceroc Central charge £30 (concessions available) for their workshops, which are mostly, if not all, sell-outs. Very many attending them are repeat customers from other workshops. I have heard nothing but praise for these workshops.

I recently attended an Amir Tango Jive Workshop :clap: . Fabulous as I expected, a new outlook and a whole new way of thinking. but, the cost did factor in to the decision to attend. Everyone has a budget to work within, some are obviously greater than others. No matter who the instructor, or whatever the product, if I cannot afford it, I cannot attend or have it. Factor of life! Roll on the Lottery win! :yeah:

Probably too much fluff for some people maybe? :whistle: Perhaps too many hard facts for others? :devil:

bigdjiver

16th-August-2004, 01:28 AM

I was thinking about the "your coolest move" thread, and it brought me to this topic from a different angle. I frequently use a move I learned in, say, eight minutes at a fun night at the David Lloyd club in Beckenham. It almost invariably brings a smile to partners lips. It is impossible to put a value on partners smile, but pick your own valuation.
Now consider, those eight minutes have bought me over 2,000 smiles. Assuming a top class workshop would do as much, how much is one worth now?

Yogi_Bear

16th-August-2004, 08:33 AM

Dreadful Scathe

16th-August-2004, 11:28 AM

It is entirely possible that a large percentage of the punters do not know who the Teacher is.

As a rule, its the one with the microphone.

(And paying my petrol to get there, putting me up in a 5* hotel, and providing me with a posse of dancing girls).

Is that the correct collective term? hmm... a divine of dancing girls - a gaggle of dancing girls ...

...mind you, if they're hunting you down to bring you to justice that term would be fine ;)

ChrisA has a good point on this topic (topic - i looked it up :) ) a workshop would have to describe what you're getting for your money to make a higher price sound reasonable. i.e. 4 couples only with Amir - all day workshop - only 40 quid. That would be reasonable to me!

Jayne

16th-August-2004, 11:47 AM

It is entirely possible that a large percentage of the punters do not know who the Teacher is.

As a rule, its the one with the microphone.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

J :nice:

Mary

17th-August-2004, 11:09 AM

Just a thought, Gus. Do you define an 'A' list teacher because they are a dance god/Goddess (Viktor/Lily), or because they have an incredible amount of knowledge (The Oracle), or because they have phenomenal and inspiring teaching skills (Amir)? Maybe I should add another one - because they have a specialised field e.g. jive/hip-hop (Adam).

Anyway, for what it's worth there is a limit to what I will pay for a workshop or a private lesson, regardless of who is teaching.

BTW this is not my definative list of examples and I apologise to all those people whose skills I admire that I have not included in a list. :flower: :worthy: :whistle: (D'ya think I got away with that one?)

M

Gordon J Pownall

17th-August-2004, 02:05 PM

BTW this is not my definative list of examples and I apologise to all those people whose skills I admire that I have not included in a list. :flower: :worthy: :whistle: (D'ya think I got away with that one?)M

Nearly - but not quite....

Sal and I are teaching a Latin Jive workshop this Sunday (22 August) in Finchley.... :clap:

Based on some of the above 'observations' the cost will be :-

£30.00 (normal CerocMetro price) :clap:

£1.25 plus a packet of fags (not an A list teacher) :what:

£25.00 plus VAT (not an A list teacher but the demo is DJ Bunnie (a babe IMHO)

£2,000 deposit plus 24 payments of £200.00 (teacher with specialist skills and demo who is also a DJ)

Applications to be made in triplicate to www.I-am-a-dancing-junkie.com stating name, age, DOB, sailing experience, inside leg measurement, favourite colour of chiffon underwear and a two thousand word essay explaining your motivation for attending.

Following this there will be an audition to assess suitability of yourself and partner (no partner required) and your ability to speak in a Southern dialect.

Those travelling more that two hundred miles and paying more than £30.00 will be asked to take up residence in the South as you have more money than sense and therefore automotically qualify for immigration status.

Those living in the South will be expected to take pity on the Northerners and welcome them, introducing them to indoor toilets and BBQ's (as up Norf, they use outside loos and eat inside).

Music for this LATIN jive workshop will be determined through a postal (or in writing) request system followed by a shortlist of tracks determined by anonymous poll and then totally ignored by the DJ, (who will promise to play the track if he / she has time).

The workshop is aimed at intermediate / advanced level - (beginners welcome but only if you consider yourself to be an intermediate / advanced dancer) and sod any others opinion.

The workshop is a real event (the rest is of course the ramblings of a forumite....) :whistle:

see www.cerocmetro.com

G.....

Gus

17th-August-2004, 05:12 PM

Belive it or not one of the main topics of (drunken) discussion post the Champs on Saturday was the A list debate/bunfight. Its a shame that it descended in part to a slagging match due to egos but valid points were made on the original query.

In the main it comes down to economics ... what can you charge and still get a full house? I know areas of the country where any teacher can charge £25 or more and still get attendees. Elsewhere, franchisees have said that if JC himself descended from Heaven to give a 6 hour workshop, the punters would still not pay more than £15. So ...economics do have a role to play.

Just a thought, Gus. Do you define an 'A' list teacher because they are a dance god/Goddess (Viktor/Lily), or because they have an incredible amount of knowledge (The Oracle), or because they have phenomenal and inspiring teaching skills (Amir)? Maybe I should add another one - because they have a specialised field e.g. jive/hip-hop (Adam).

Mary's comment is a good one. Even for myslef I probably have 2 'A lists'. As a promoter I have to think about who will pull in the crowds and allow me to make a profit. There is also a secondary issue of who do I think will actually improve the standard of dancing in my area. Take Pete Phillips as a case in point. I think the guy is a DJ God, one of the best examples of attitude for someone in the MJ scene ... BUT would not automatically put him in the A list ofr general workshops. HOWEVER ... for drops workshops he clearly is an A List. From a commercial point of view, its not yet that easy to sell Peter's workshops in the North West because his reputation is yet to be established. We ran one workshop and that is the start ... a few more then as a commercial product Pete Phillips may reach A list status.

My second A list is for dancers who I think really are at the top of the game. Some people exist in the 'commercial' A list but others are those that I think are superb and inspirational ... even if I couldnt make a profit out of selling their workshop .. e.g. Adam and Tas for example.

Where does this all come back to ... well, the comments and the poll seem to suggest that Jo Public doesnt differentiate massively between local instructors and the guys at the top of the game (ok, that may sometimes be one and the same). If you believe (as Gordy and Bigdjiver seem to :flower: ) that all instructors are equal ... then so be it. I dont .. and have heard and seen nothing to change my view. The likes of Viktor, Amir etc will continue to be an inspiration to me both as dancers but more as instructors .... and I hope to strive to meet their high standards. In reality I know I never will but its the path rather than the destination that matters ... and hopefully the poor sods who come to my classes and workshops will eventualy see the quality of the product they are paying for increase :waycool:

MartinHarper

17th-August-2004, 07:35 PM

if JC himself descended from Heaven to give a 6 hour workshop

The meek shall inherit the Earth? Sounds like followers would get a lot out of it.

bigdjiver

17th-August-2004, 11:14 PM

... If you believe (as Gordy and Bigdjiver seem to :flower: ) that all instructors are equal ....: Please do not grossly misrepresent my views.

There was a TV series on dance featuring Alexie Sayle, another featuring Debbie Bull. I am quite able to differentiate between commercial drawing power and dance and teaching abilities, that is three ranking systems already, without purely personal preferences (e.g. physical attraction, friendship) being involved. I objected to "A" list being used as promoters fluff in what could have been a straightforward, and more valuable, question and discussion.

I am pleased that you have accepted the view that I and many others put forward, that it is, in the main, just economics.

I should add, for novice would-be promoters, that it a marketing mistake to charge too little, even if it covers costs, because "cheap" is often associated with "inferior".

Mary

18th-August-2004, 09:29 AM

I should add, for novice would-be promoters, that it a marketing mistake to charge too little, even if it covers costs, because "cheap" is often associated with "inferior".

If you saw a bottle of Chanel perfume on the counter for £5 and another bottle of the same for, say, £35 which would you buy?? ;)

M

Mary

18th-August-2004, 09:32 AM

If you saw a bottle of Chanel perfume on the counter for £5 and another bottle of the same for, say, £35 which would you buy?? ;)

M

But then, if you saw the same bottle of perfume again my guess is that you would not pay £350 for it.

M

Gus

18th-August-2004, 09:45 AM

I should add, for novice would-be promoters, that it a marketing mistake to charge too little, even if it covers costs, because "cheap" is often associated with "inferior".

There is a basic marketing concept known as the "Vayblen Effect" (urr ... thats if I've spelt it right) that says something that percieved quality rises with price ... so there is something in what you say. HOWEVER ... the flip side of the economics is whether you are promoting workshops to make as much money as possible or whether you are there to improve dance standards ... or something in between. One way that a promoter can make more money is to pack as many people into the workshop as posisble or to use cheaper but cramped venues. Its all part of the equation. Oh ... and the question of competition. If you are the only person running workshops in your area then you have a far greater command over pricing. Luckily (for the punters) the North West has 2 major dance organisations running worklshops as well as a couple of independants.

bigdjiver

18th-August-2004, 11:13 AM

If you saw a bottle of Chanel perfume on the counter for £5 and another bottle of the same for, say, £35 which would you buy?? ;)

M Neither?

bigdjiver

18th-August-2004, 11:52 AM

There is a basic marketing concept known as the "Vayblen Effect" (urr ... thats if I've spelt it right) that says something that percieved quality rises with price ... so there is something in what you say. HOWEVER ... the flip side of the economics is whether you are promoting workshops to make as much money as possible or whether you are there to improve dance standards ... or something in between. One way that a promoter can make more money is to pack as many people into the workshop as posisble or to use cheaper but cramped venues. Its all part of the equation. Oh ... and the question of competition. If you are the only person running workshops in your area then you have a far greater command over pricing. Luckily (for the punters) the North West has 2 major dance organisations running worklshops as well as a couple of independants. For a brief moment I had a flicker of hope that I could give Gus some positive feedback for teaching me a name for the phenomenom, which IK know exists by bitter experience, but a meta-search failed to find "Vayblen".

So who runs workshops to reduce dance standards?

The "competition" and pricing argument is over stated, as a trip around any shopping centre will testify. How many resturaunt windows do you look in before picking one?
IMO MJ organisations would be all better off just doing their own thing as well as the can, promoting MJ to those the message has not reached, and not attacking each other, even in the most subtle fashion. There are three MJ organisations in Bedford, and the attendances are inversely related to price, and all are growing.

IMO most people will go tend to go to the workshops associated with their favourite organisation in order to be with the crowd that they know. The price is not that significant amongst all of the other factors, sundry costs, time and travel. A good product at a fair price is all that they are looking for.

Sheepman

18th-August-2004, 01:28 PM

I am pleased that you have accepted the view that I and many others put forward, that it is, in the main, just economics.
Maybe my views on this are particularly odd :really: but (luckily) for me, it is not a question of affordability, though I still have to see any workshop I do as offering good value for money. In other words, do I think I will learn enough from it that will improve my dancing? I don't consider who the other students would be, under the assumption (perhaps incorrectly) that the teacher/promoter will have aimed the workshop at those people who are likely to benefit in the same way as me.

I consider myself pretty lucky to have as regular teachers Nigel, Amir, Paul Warden, and (very shortly :clap: :clap: ) David and Lily. So for me to spend a substantial amount of money it has to be for teachers that I perceive are as good, if not better, than these. (So I suppose that means I've just revealed my "A" list.)

I'm not conceited enough to think I wouldn't be learning from other MJ teachers, but unless I had tangible evidence that for me it would be as useful a lesson, I'm not likely to consider it, in terms of either time or money. OK I have been dancing for many years, and have done dozens of workshops from different teachers on various aspects of dance, so I am probably not the target market for most workshops. Though hopefully this illustrates the point that before doing a workshop (and to a lesser extent, any lesson) it's vital to have knowledge of, and respect for, your teacher.

Greg

Gordon J Pownall

27th-August-2004, 10:11 AM

If you believe (as Gordy and Bigdjiver seem to :flower: ) that all instructors are equal ... then so be it

Oooooohhh....you cheeky little sod.....just noticed this......

I sooooooooooooooooooooooooo did not say that at all - you're making it up as you go along......???

The Big Man himsel' has also given you a spanking I notice for this misrepresentation......tut tut tut.... (or maybe tutu)...... :whistle:

Gordon J Pownall

27th-August-2004, 10:13 AM

IMO MJ organisations would be all better off just doing their own thing as well as the can, promoting MJ to those the message has not reached, and not attacking each other, even in the most subtle fashion.

:yeah:

Gus

27th-August-2004, 07:55 PM

I sooooooooooooooooooooooooo did not say that at all - you're making it up as you go along......???

Ah ... I said seem ... I was asking for clarification. I wasnt sure what point you were trying to make ..... do you believe yourself to be the same level as Viktor. Do you blieve thgat there aren't major differences between instructors competencies? Just curious. My original point stands. As a promoter I know who are A list in the eyes of my customers. Fact. End of story.

The Big Man himsel' has also given you a spanking I notice for this misrepresentation......tut tut tut.... (or maybe tutu)...... :whistle:
Who? Which Big Man .. what spanking :confused: Did I miss something :confused:

Gus

29th-August-2004, 01:57 PM

{ODA Mode On}
The debate about whether someone is A list or not is a divisive discussion. The dancers probably don’t care who is 'The Best' ... they want someone who they think is capable of teaching them well and giving them value for money. In the Jive Addiction website there is profile of one of the instructors that starts;

"Who's the best in the North West? That's subjective ...."

The teacher in question is a well regarded instructor but the organisers recognise that its not possible to label someone as 'The Best', even in a smaller region as the North west. Imagine trying to do that in Scotland or the Midlands. Take an organisation like Mo'Jive or Blitz ... if one of their instructors was named as The Best .. how would all the rest feel? How do you say who is best?? As Jive Addiction say ... its so subjective.

So ... can there ever be a league table of instructors? There are those who want to produce a league table of the best dancers in the UK ... is that a similar dangerous step in producing a listing that benefits little but can cause much heartache?
{ODA Mode Off}

Thought it was about time I argued from the other side :wink:

bigdjiver

29th-August-2004, 06:48 PM

"A-list" seems to me a promotional tool, and far too subjective. A "Name" instructor seems to me a more fitting description. There is an absolute measurement behind that epithet, although I am sure people will disagree how it is measured, and what their guesses of the measurement are. For me the "Name instructors" are the ones that most of the target customers have heard good things about. There are many excellent MJ teachers that would be on my "A-list" that are not well known outside of their local area.

Gus

29th-August-2004, 09:56 PM

There are many excellent MJ teachers that would be on my "A-list" that are not well known outside of their local area.

Very true, I point I tried to make earlier. Given the number of new stars comeing through (e.g. Adam and Taz, Marc etc) and how poor the jungle telegraph is, its not surprising how otherwise excellent instructors can stay hidden. I think that the greatest contribution that Jive Spree ahs made was not so much the event itself but the fact that it gave 'unknowns' as chance to promote their wares to 1000+ dancers. It was at Camber that I first saw Amir :grin:

bigdjiver

30th-August-2004, 01:17 PM

... I consider myself pretty lucky to have as regular teachers Nigel, Amir, Paul Warden, and (very shortly :clap: :clap: ) David and Lily. ... And herein lies the nub of the argument. Like Gus you do not "sell" your workshops directly on what is taught, or how it is taught, but on who is teching it. I could stand on a stage and do my best to imitate a legend of comedy, repeating their act verbatim, but it would laughable rather than hilarious. The best teachers and DJ's, like the best comedians, know how to interact with their audience.

Thinks ... how long to A-list teaching tribute acts?

If people want to rip off teaching styles, why not make it a business - the A-list Academy?

Lounge Lizard

30th-August-2004, 03:00 PM

I have just watched the Souithport DVD and everyone had over an hour for their class, Amir taught two moves in that time.

He is an A list teacher but I would not want to go to a workshop and learn at that speed (they were not overly complicated moves I know of one couple who learnt them in 15 mins from DVD).

Is their a balance between the A list name and and the workshop content?
Is it better to focus on two moves rather than a big routine?

I am not saying anything bad about Amir, so no need to flame me,
All I am asking is - cos the teacher is 'A list' it does not neccessarily mean you will think their workshops are great.

Although I am only a social dancer with skills to match, I prefer a class like Nelson & Karen's, where great original moves can be found rather than a highly detailed slow approach.
LL

RobC

30th-August-2004, 05:31 PM

Thinks ... how long to A-list teaching tribute acts?

Already had one this summer - Rob & Lawrence did a fantastic Nigel & Nina tribute in the Beach Boogie Ariels competition. A well deserved 'Most Entertaining' award. :worthy:

Andreas

3rd-September-2004, 11:12 AM

Gus

3rd-September-2004, 11:32 AM

Gus,

I think the question to e asked is: Do I want my clients to be wondering 'I realy want to but cannot afford' or 'sure I am onna do that one'. To push it even further: 'I have done a WS with that person and it cost me only so little, now I have been paying for a name and didn't learn a thing more' :wink:

Taking as much as you can is tempting but I'd never do it. I prefer customer satisfaction and enjoyment rather than worried faces. :cheers:

Good points well made (except for the comment re taking as much as you can ... not sure that has ever been suggested). From an organisers point of view there are two issues. Mainstream courses (e.g. Blues, Advanced MJ moves etc) have a ready supply of teachers .. and therefore are relatively cheap to run ... what the heck, I can teach some of them myself. HOWEVER, in line with martet economics .. to run a course that is, say, 10% above the others, the cost can be 50%+ more because the limited people who can teach it. If I was to run a top flight WCS course, there are only two or three instructors I know of. To run an more advanced musical interpration ... again, there are few guys at the top of this game.

If I have to pay £100 for an instructor for one course but £500 for an instructor for another course ... shouldn't I pass those costs on .. or am I supposed to become a charity? (note ... some of my original worlkshops were run at a loss as the objective was to develop better dancers in the area as qucily as possible.)

Andreas

3rd-September-2004, 11:51 AM

To run an more advanced musical interpration ... again, there are few guys at the top of this game.

Call me thick but in every class that I tauht and with a bit more emphasis in private lessons I always pay great detail to musical interpretation. This is honestly nothing that I regard 'special'. It is a shame that, as you know, not many people regard it with the value it deserves and those teachers are to be slapped in the face for their neglegance/ignorance.

If I have to pay £100 for an instructor for one course but £500 for an instructor for another course ... shouldn't I pass those costs on .. or am I supposed to become a charity? (note ... some of my original worlkshops were run at a loss as the objective was to develop better dancers in the area as qucily as possible.)

I can see your point! This scenario has one think if a much higher price is justified. As in all professions, more experienced and advanced people do get paid more and it is a matter of them deciding if they want to charge what they think they can or do it for the sake of passing on knowledge and keep the price down. I belon to the second group but that can certainly not be said about all.

But to sum that up, yes, as the organiser you HAVE to pass on the costs. It cannot be expected that you make a loss. :yeah:

Gus

3rd-September-2004, 03:59 PM

Call me thick but in every class that I tauht and with a bit more emphasis in private lessons I always pay great detail to musical interpretation.

Curoius, where do you teach and who for? I was under the impression that the standard MJ lesson gives little room to teach musical interpretation, at least to any degree that the assembled hordes would be able to take on board. Have you developed an approach that works?

Chicklet

3rd-September-2004, 04:16 PM

RobC

3rd-September-2004, 04:38 PM

Going back to an aside from the original question - to what extent do we believe that price for a workshop will take precedence over the "if so and so and so and so are going, then I'll probably go" in dancers' decision making processes?

And - do the "names" actually pull bigger crowds than for workshops than regular (as in usual, weekly) teachers?

Interested..
To be honest, I dont think the "if so and so is going" factor comes into a workshop (unlike a freestyle night). Whether it is a fixed-partner or a rotating workshop, the numbers are generally going to less than a freestyle night, and the people attending are going to be people that want to learn, and not just there for the social, so the class should be able to progress at a decent rate whoever is in it.

MartinHarper

3rd-September-2004, 04:49 PM

the standard MJ lesson gives little room to teach musical interpretation

I've had standard classes where the routine was selected to roughly match a particular piece of music. The class runs absolutely as normal, right up to the "now do the entire routine to music" bit, at which point everyone goes "ooh" when the slow comb hits the break...

Andreas

3rd-September-2004, 04:50 PM

Curoius, where do you teach and who for? I was under the impression that the standard MJ lesson gives little room to teach musical interpretation, at least to any degree that the assembled hordes would be able to take on board. Have you developed an approach that works?

I used to teach in NZ but have recently moved to London.

In my opinion it is all a matter of approach. One of the thing is the teacher's counting in. It is one thing to be on beat, another one to work with phrases. That is the simplest way of introducing musical interpretation in a class environment. If you then choose music with very clear accents you can easily highlite those. I know, these days one has to be happy to have the teachers be on beat but nontheless should there be made an effort to have them improve their musicality.

Admittedly, there is no 'works all the time' solutioin for the simple fact that, not all moves can be combined in a fashion that they work perfectly well with the music. However, teachin dips and pauses etc., you can easily explain that if you are runnin up to the end of a phrase you will wait, slow down whatever in order to hit it. Sure thing, that is nothing in a beinners class but I don't think that was what we were talking about anyway :)

I attended a class last night, my first in the UK :) It was fun (Intermediate) and the moves not too complex. Though, it did show, that the teacher was not too worried about the music. He rushed one of the moves and consequently the transition into the next one. The pity was that the move he rushed could have been such a groovy little sway that provides a great opportunity to 'wait for the music'.

EDIT: I also tell people to sing/humm the music (at least mentally). That makes it easier to connect with it and often they intuitively read it correctly. It is a different matter to perform an appropriate move but that is why pauses and stops in general come in handy at lower levels. Not much to do, satisfactory result ;)

Andreas

3rd-September-2004, 04:53 PM

I've had standard classes where the routine was selected to roughly match a particular piece of music. The class runs absolutely as normal, right up to the "now do the entire routine to music" bit, at which point everyone goes "ooh" when the slow comb hits the break...

Yes, some teachers like doing that. I approve to this approach just as much as I dislike it. I have attended a couple of such classes myself and the problem starts when the class cannot connect with the music. A whole hour of a son that you hate (to put it to the extreme) will be attrocious and you'll learn very little because you don't enjoy it. This method does, however give a good base to explain music.

Gus

8th-January-2005, 04:20 PM

Feelingpink

8th-January-2005, 07:01 PM

... with the marked increase in weekenders there seems to be an equal decrease in the interst in local workshops. Although I started 5 yaers ago on the basis of pulling the top instructors up to the North West ... I'm seriously thinking about pulling out of that market ... given the risks and hassle involved, for decreasing returns (costs increasing but the punters dont want to pay any more) its getting to a state where its not worth it ..... shame :sad:

That does sound a shame. Could you take the attitude that it's a temporary break and set up a workshop if there seems a niche need or a great opportunity with a visiting teacher? Perhaps even the kind of thing that grows out of a bunch of dancers at the pub saying "wouldn't it be a good idea if we knew more about .....".

Andreas

8th-January-2005, 11:05 PM

djtrev

8th-January-2005, 11:25 PM

Promoters like you and all the other people that are obsessed with this A list thing have only yourselves to blame.
You have built these Gods/Godesses up and they quite rightly are cashing in on it.

djtrev

8th-January-2005, 11:37 PM

Andreas

8th-January-2005, 11:39 PM

I know that this was posted on August 12th but I ask you.
Quote
...and when did the powers that be decide that Viktor / Amir et al were 'A list' and that John Sweeney, myself, Adam Nathanson, Franck and others to name but a few are not A list.

Thats Gordon Pownall's response when he found out that he wasnt on Gus's A list.

Well, I think somebody's ego got dented when he saw the list :what: but in actual fact it is correct. It is ONE list, somebody else' list may look completely different.

djtrev

9th-January-2005, 12:06 AM

Yes of course it is only one list but my point is that all he was concerned about at that moment was that he wasnt considered A list material.

All the time that I spend on my computer is more often than not spent on Ceroc Scotland or a mobile DJ site that I am a member of,simply because I find them both interesting and stimulating and also the fact that they cover the two things I am most interested in -music and MJ.
But there is one thing that really does annoy me about this forum.It is this thing about A lists,Gods/Godesses and their over inflated ego's.
I am sorry but I mean no offence to anyone in particular its just something I have difficulty in accepting.

Andreas

9th-January-2005, 12:50 AM

Gadget

9th-January-2005, 01:14 AM

{:chomp:}

But there is one thing that really does annoy me about this forum.It is this thing about A lists,Gods/Godesses and their over inflated ego's.
I am sorry but I mean no offence to anyone in particular its just something I have difficulty in accepting.
The 'A' list is a general term used to imply all top teachers - the actual members of this list vary from person to person. The people at the top of this list are the people who would appear in everyone's list.

Would you rather be taught by "Eric of 22 Acacia Avenue" or "Mr Dance God, winner of this, that and the next thing, teacher at several weekenders, judge at competitions, specialises in fancy stuff you want to learn" ?
Nothing to do with egos and everything to do with dancers wanting to learn from them. They have masses of knowledge or style and want to pass it on - fdor most it's not a career: it's a pass-time. For most, (if they have the time and no prior commitments), they would consider teaching for expenses, so they are not out of pocket. Depending on the event, some may accept a fee that does not even cover their expenses. *

(*nb: some I am not on intemate terms with what could even be called a handfull of them and may be takling pants.)

Lory

9th-January-2005, 01:27 AM

and may be takling pants.)
Who's winning? :D

bigdjiver

9th-January-2005, 09:54 AM

If you are trying to make a career doing something then reputation is vital. If some diminishes it in any way then it is not merely a matter of ego, it can be a "bread on the table" matter.

It cannot be said too often, teaching is a skill. There are many winners that cannot remember how they got there, or whose skill is purely instinctive and they really do not know how they do it, or who are using abilities that their pupils will never possess, or who simply do not have the patience and ability to communicate.

Often the best teachers started with only moderate ability, but have acquired the skill they have by analysis, hard work, and constant practise. They know their pupils problems, know how to solve them, and have the patience and particular skill to communicate what is needed to their students.

As far as I am concerned "A-list" is a marketing term. I prefer the term "Name" teacher.

Andreas

9th-January-2005, 10:58 AM

jivecat

9th-January-2005, 11:18 AM

Funny ... recent events caused me to think of this theasd again. with the marked increase in weekenders there seems to be an equal decrease in the interst in local workshops. Although I started 5 yaers ago on the basis of pulling the top instructors up to the North West ... I'm seriously thinking about pulling out of that market ... given the risks and hassle involved, for decreasing returns (costs increasing but the punters dont want to pay any more) its getting to a state where its not worth it ..... shame :sad:

After the last weekender I went on my feeling was that I'd prefer to get my dance tuition from then on in the form of local(ish) day workshops. The benefit I get from Weekenders is the buzz from dancing with a wide range of new partners - but I feel I learn very little from the overcrowded and brief workshops.

A day workshop involves 4 hours of concentrated focus on specific moves or teaching points in a small group setting. The work can be covered thoroughly with plenty of repetition. The organisers can plan for a good balance of men/women. There's time to chat to the teacher and to get a little individual feedback. The day is much more relaxed and provides a chance to get to know the other dancers. You don't have to spend an evening packing or think about accommodation. Best of all, there's the chance of a reasonable night's sleep at the end of it!

So please don't give up on day workshops yet, Gus. I'd probably be prepared to pay up to £30 for the right kind of teaching/teacher, especially if it was a deal that included entry to an evening freestyle on the same day. I'd probably be going to a freestyle in the evening anyway, so a full day's package makes it worth travelling a little bit further to a venue. Having said that, I have known workshop/freestyle packages to be as little as £25 - the delightful Bluesdance days at Ampthill.

David Franklin

9th-January-2005, 11:37 AM

I do agree with the marketing thingy. As far as I am concerned none of those teachers is on my list of people I want to learn from. Why? Quite simple, I don't know most of them. Even Viktor, who is hailed everywhere, I have only seen him on two occasions on a video tape and what I saw was nothing that stood out. There are different people on my list. So claiming these are people that are on everybody's list is just plain wrong. Well, in marketing terms, you're looking for "teachers who will attract the punters" - in which case I don't think many would argue that Nigel/Nina, Viktor and Amir are at the top of the tree. However, to agree with your point about personal preferences, I wouldn't make a special effort for any of their lessons. They teach in London all the time, (or used to, in the case of Viktor), so when they do a special workshop, it's usually nothing I haven't seen before, or couldn't ask them about privately. Whereas Gus describes himself as B-list, but if he was doing a workshop on 'Club-Jive' in London, I'd be tempted to go - more chance of learning something new to me... And if a teacher has sizeable expenses (e.g. travel), I would understand their class being more expensive. Again - I'm paying for the opportunity to learn something different from the local stuff.

The majority of people who say 'yes, I want to learn from him/her' will never have seen them LIVE on the floor and only follow the hype. Think 'hype' is a bit strong - nothing wrong with either competition results or 'word of mouth' as an indicator of talent. Though obviously competition results only tell you something about competing, not teaching skills.

Everybody has strengths and weaknesses and somebody classed as 'A list' by whoever will be no good teaching something that is not his/her strength, you might as well get a 'B class' teacher that is strong in that particular area.And how many of us really need that 'A class' teacher anyhow? I'll admit going to Rebel Yell largely on the basis of Robert/Deborah and then Jordan/Tatianna teaching. But I'd be the first to admit being taught by a champion WCS couple is somewhat overkill at my standard. :rofl: So is that falling for the hype? Or taking advantage of a rare opportunity to see the top dancers from the US? I would say, however, that in the event J/T were the most amazing teachers I've ever seen. :worthy:

So I agree that classifying teachers is only causing dented egos and arrogance rather than giving a clear indication of their quality and strengths and weaknesses.Not just teacher ego, though, IMO. I think a lot of people like to feel "I can only learn from the likes of Nigel" - puts them a cut above the standard Ceroc dancer (in their imaginations... :devil: )!

Dave

Tiggerbabe

9th-January-2005, 01:17 PM

After the last weekender I went on my feeling was that I'd prefer to get my dance tuition from then on in the form of local(ish) day workshops. The benefit I get from Weekenders is the buzz from dancing with a wide range of new partners - but I feel I learn very little from the overcrowded and brief workshops.
Have to agree with this, the last weekender I went to, I didn't go to any of the workshops at all - and the weekender before that only two (and both of these were held in the smaller hall rather than the main one).

Leo

9th-January-2005, 01:47 PM

No offence to standard teachers but it doesn't seem right that a promoter can run a workshop with a teacher costing about £100 and charge the same for an event that can cost another promoter over £500. Can you compare the teaching by a standard MJ instructor to the teaching by one of the Teaching Elite? I must admit that I would find it hard to charge the same for a workshop taught by myself as a workshop taught by Viktor :sick:

Are we underpricing the A list workshops ... or charging too much for the standard workshops?

You payed them HOW much. I have demo'd for the buis for years and all I get offered is half a dozen admit ones. I teach a class, do a demo, I travel half way accross the UK. I compete so that everybody knows my name and I get fifty quid. I need to speak to the boss.
Only got that kind of money once for performing at a wedding but that took six months of choreography and practice to make a routine to the grooms choice of music (dull).
Is ANYBODY really worth that?

Cover your costs man, how much profit do you need?

Andreas

9th-January-2005, 01:58 PM

Nigel/Nina

I watched a class of their's last Friday.

pro:
- nice and fun routine
- nice dancers
- Nigel explains well
- good musicality

con:
- they dance well together but do not harmonise. this becomes PAINFULLY obvious when they start mild domestics on stage. What do I care who said what in the prep of the class. It is amusing if that is mentioned once, it becomes a nuisance when it continues. Absolutely unacceptable for 'top teachers'. Sorry.
- she can't break down the mechanics of moves for the girls

So you see, nobody is perfect, not even teachers that are classed 'top of the tree'. Admittedly, what I noticed there may not be a frequent occurrance, but in actual fact, it should not happen at all ;)

Gus

9th-January-2005, 02:03 PM

Promoters like you and all the other people that are obsessed with this A list thing have only yourselves to blame.
You have built these Gods/Godesses up and they quite rightly are cashing in on it.Flamethrower set to MAX
I'm sorry but this is one of the most inane and ill informed comments I think I've ever seen on this forum! The 'A list' are so called for two reasons. As Dave and Gadget have pointed out, from a marketing pint of view these are the guys who will bring in the punters ... rather than Eric from 22 Acacia Ave. Secondly and MORE importantly, these are the guys who have shaped the MJ scene and can teach my target audience better than anyone else. I'm talking of the likes of Viktor, Nigel and Nina, Simon Selmon, Amir etc. This is a select band. I don’t promote them because they are all superb dancers ... I promote them because I know from experience that they can bring on a major improvement in dancers ability. THAT is the real difference between them and the vast mass of other teachers.

Oh ... and another thing ..... what is all this cr*p said about their egos? Have you ever met these guys? With no exception that are people who have taken out time (often for every little financial reward) to improve both dancers and the dancing scene generally. To accuse them of being egotistical is both wrong and highly offensive. I remember when I was a struggling intermediate and not known on the circuit ... and being totally in awe of the likes of Simon, Viktor and Nigel ..... during one memorable summer at different events I got chance to chat to these guys and all of them tool time out to help me out and give me some coaching. I know many 'standard' teachers who would not have shown the same courtesy.

I appreciate that Norfolk is a little off the map of where things 'happen' but ignorance is no excuse for having a go at both those who try to set up top-quality events and these teachers who have made a major contribution to the MJ scene. I suggest a public apology is in order! :angry:

Bangers & Mash

9th-January-2005, 02:05 PM

What a brilliant thread. I didn't realise what a territorial bunch dancers and dance teachers were. 'A' list, 'B' list, 'Z' list.

As a poor punter I have a very simple approach to the lessons and the teachers and this determines how much I would pay for the class and the instructor.

1. Did I enjoy the class
2. Did I learn anything from the class
3. Can I remember any of it
4. Would I do it again

I train for a living (but not dance, obviously :tears:) and I remember teaching a beginner class and leaving the advanced class for my much more experienced and knoweledgeable colleague. One of his feedback forms from a very influential customer read "would have been much more fun if John had taught it."

I think this makes my point very clearly. Dancing is all about having fun and bringing this out in your dancing as well as learning the moves.

Now, I've never named names before, but this time I will in the hope that those I name are big enough to take what I say constructively and dispassionately.

Until recently I have been Edinburgh based and so have done several classes taught by two instructors from there- namely Scot and Allison. Both instructors brought their own definitive style and technique to the classrooms and I gained quite a lot from them. Learning first beginner moves and then intermediate and then doing 2 style workshops.

As I expanded my dance circuit my focus changed from learning moves and a particular style from a particular teacher to finding a style that I liked and then trying to build on that.

At Southport I attended several classes - ranging from the ubiquitous Amir to the infamous Mikey. Some of Amir's style I loved and could emulate. Some of it I didn't like because it leant itself more to a lean 6' physique whereas my frame is built much more for comfort than for speed. Some of Mikey's style I also loved because it helped me drop many of my inhibitions and helped me improvise more and learn to be led by the music rather than by a set move.

At the BFG I attended classes run by Franck, Lorna, Lisa, Trampy, and CerocMetro. Here I learned a range of things - how to lead and follow, how to interpret the music, how to make a girl look absolutely gorgeous with the dance and how to use the simplest of moves to make an impressive dance portfolio. In my opinion, I can't think of any better teachers for each class than the individual teacher that taught it.

More recently, I had a one day workshop with the much maligned Mikey. "known" for "sleaze" (not helped by the name Strictly Sinful), I found that Mikey taught me a whole host of really good CEROC moves, musical interpretation and helped me develop my own style - pointing out flaws and bad habits and helping develop the more positive aspects of my style.

So, what would I pay, when, where and why?

That would depend on what I was trying to get out of the class and whether or not I thought the individual teacher in question would benefit me and also, who else was going.

For example - you don't turn up to dips, drops and seducers with the local weightwatchers community. Some things just aren't practical.

The short of it is - I don't concur with the 'A' list / 'Z' list scenario that you describe. I would go back to any one of the instructors I have named here and pay equally depending on what I wanted to learn.

An instructor is no greater than the sum of his students. Put Einstein in a kindergarten class and you'll still get crayon pictures.

David Franklin

9th-January-2005, 02:09 PM

So you see, nobody is perfect, not even teachers that are classed 'top of the tree'. No argument. But I think you're missing my point - I'm sure many have teachers they prefer. But very few would argue that Nigel/Nina are the biggest teaching attraction in the UK - they definitely get the punters in.

Dave

Gus

9th-January-2005, 02:15 PM

You payed them HOW much.Firstly they are worth it! Secondly, if you had to take out 36 hours of your life (many instructors come up on the Friday and don’t leave till early Sunday), prepare a 4 hour workshop (which is probably at least 3 mandays work) .... how much should you get paid? These are the best in their class yet punters expect them to be paid an hourly rate below minimum wage!

I have demo'd for the buis for years and all I get offered is half a dozen admit ones. I teach a class, do a demo, I travel half way across the UK. I compete so that everybody knows my name and I get fifty quid..And you would be?? :whistle: If you could achieve the same impact on a group of dancers as Viktor or Amir and pull the crowds as well ... they I'd hire you at the same rate. Slight problem is there aren't any Ceroc instructors who have the same pulling power in the NWest .... but please feel free to correct me. :rolleyes:

Cover your costs man, how much profit do you need?Helloooo ... this is the real world ... if I'm doing dance stuff I'm not earning and I've not a charity. Real world lesson .... I can take up to 4 mandays in preparation, organisation and promotion of a workshop. With instructor fees, venues costs, promotional costs and other expenses a workshop can cost around £700 to put on .... and pull in about £800 .. if I'm lucky. Do you do 4 days work for £100

bigdjiver

9th-January-2005, 02:27 PM

.... I can take up to 4 mandays in preparation, organisation and promotion of a workshop. With instructor fees, venues costs, promotional costs and other expenses a workshop can cost around £700 to put on .... :devil: Which is the bulk of the effort required to start a new class. So, where are the resources best spent? :devil:

Bangers & Mash

9th-January-2005, 02:30 PM

No argument. But I think you're missing my point - I'm sure many have teachers they prefer. But very few would argue that Nigel/Nina are the biggest teaching attraction in the UK - they definitely get the punters in.

Dave

Gonna beg to differ here.

I challenge you to turn up at a regular ceroc class and find more than 10% of the class who know who Amir is.

I know he's rated highly and I saw him dance at Southport but if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have a clue who he was.

People will pay for known entities that they like - and 9 times out of 10 those known entities will be local.

Gus

9th-January-2005, 02:39 PM

I challenge you to turn up at a regular ceroc class and find more than 10% of the class who know who Amir is.I think you are missing the piont. Ceroc is well known for keeping its punters in dark about non-Ceroc instructors. Remember, Ceroc franchsiees cannot use non-Ceroc instructors (unless they are part of the dimishing list of 'affiliates'). When I brought up Viktor in 99 the majority of people who booked on hadn't heard of him either ... they came on my word. In the three years that followed all the workshops were a sell-out. Similarly with Amir ... there is now a great demand.

There are two key points ..... our area is now sufficiently 'educated' to know who most of the greats are. As with all of us ... there are the 'new' greats that its the duty of promoters like myself to keep an eye out for and assess whether what they offer is marketable. Which brings me to the second point ... if promoters dont take a chance with an 'unknown' .. how do they become a 'known'?

FINAL POINT that really need to be said to keep this thread in perpsective .... the vast majority of dancers can still learn something form the vast majority of qualified intructors. The top instrcutors add something extra, whether in terms of profile, particular techniques or dance style ... BUT the backbone of MJ teaching/learning must always be the everyday weekly instructor.

Andy McGregor

9th-January-2005, 02:41 PM

I compete so that everybody knows my name and I get fifty quid. I need to speak to the boss.

Yes you do. And we need to know your name as well. I'm sure that if you compete we all know you. So who are you?

Cover your costs man, how much profit do you need?

Over the last year I've gone from keen (fanatical) dancer to organiser. I started off the year throwing a monthly party in my village hall for my friends from dancing. They cost my wife and me about £75 to throw, it was great fun, I got to dance to the music I liked with the partners I liked so it was a fab night and good value for money. And as the hall was next door we even rationalised that it wasn't any more expensive than a friday night at Hipsters - 160 miles at 40p a mile = £64 + £14 entry for two = £78.

But, throwing those parties brought me to the attention of 2 of our local organisers and we got banned because we are now competitors :tears:

So (and to get to my point) we became organisers because we needed somewhere good to go dancing that was local. The first actual event we organised was a Hog Roast in a marquee on a private camp site. We wrote the business plan to break even and charged £12 for a dance with fabulous food. Luckily we did cover our costs :phew!: We had a blast, everyone had a fabulous night in spite of the English weather. But it was 4 days work for me and 2 days work for Sue. And 2 of those days normal working days for me - where I would normally make about the same as an A-list dance teacher. With this in mind we've decided to make a modest profit in future. And, reassuringly, our dance buddies have insisted that we should :flower:

And what does "cover your costs" mean? Shouldn't you cover your labour costs too? Or is Leo recommending that Gus pay everyone else for their time but not himself?

Andy McGregor

9th-January-2005, 03:05 PM

When I brought up Viktor in 99 the majority of people who booked on hadn't heard of him either ... they came on my word.

We had exactly the same with Nigel and Nina recently. As we'd got mostly new dancers they came because I told them, with total confidence, that N&N are IMHO the best dance teachers I know. We also got people who usually stay away because our class is mostly beginners - now those experienced dancers are coming back week after week, helping our beginners to get up to their level and having a fab night. The night we had Nigel and Nina wasn't profitable - but their visit marked a turning point for our classes :clap:

Since then we've had Nigel and Steve Lampert. We've got Kylie Jones, World Champion ballroom dancer from SCD and other guest teachers visiting too keep things bubbling nicely - but we wouldn't have done any of this is we hadn't seen, first-hand, the lasting effect you can enjoy by getting an A-list teacher once in a while.

- they dance well together but do not harmonise. this becomes PAINFULLY obvious when they start mild domestics on stage. What do I care who said what in the prep of the class. It is amusing if that is mentioned once, it becomes a nuisance when it continues. Absolutely unacceptable for 'top teachers'. Sorry.

Someone who hadn't seen N&N before could be excused for thinking this way. This is exactly what makes them special. They take you through their thought process and tell you how things were developed. And the needle between the two if them is just part of the double-act. Although I do agree that Nigel did seem to go on a bit long on Friday at Hipsters - maybe he thought people in the class needed more explanation because some dancers weren't getting the moves, it's hard to tell from the floor what the teachers can see the class needs.

- she can't break down the mechanics of moves for the girls Completely wrong. Nina is a professional dance teacher. I've seen her break things down and teach for the girls and do it brilliantly. Just because someone doesn't do something on one occasion doesn't mean that they "can't" do it.

Mikey
:rofl:
:innocent:

David Franklin

9th-January-2005, 03:08 PM

Gonna beg to differ here.

I challenge you to turn up at a regular ceroc class and find more than 10% of the class who know who Amir is.That's not surprising - the fact is, most people don't know any other teachers than their own; when I started going in London at the Central Club on Wednesdays, Viktor taught then, Cliff on Monday, Mike on Tuesday and Roy on Thursday. And I think it was nearly a year before I'd even heard of Cliff, Mike or Roy! So as these things go, (once you get rid of the 'local' teachers), even 10% is going to put Amir very high in the rankings. (And Amir is probably the least well known of the people I listed - there was a reason I specified Nigel/Nina later...).

I know he's rated highly and I saw him dance at Southport but if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have a clue who he was.There are two ways of looking at this: 90% of people won't know who he is, so won't pay a premium. But 10% do, and if you get 10% of your regulars attending a workshop, that's not a bad turnout (if you have a busy venue, at any rate).

People will pay for known entities that they like - and 9 times out of 10 those known entities will be local.But I won't pay extra for the same (or similar) teaching I normally get. Obviously people's opinions will differ depending on what they know, what they want to learn, etc...

Dave

Gus

9th-January-2005, 03:21 PM

Completely wrong. Nina is a professional dance teacher. I've seen her break things down and teach for the girls and do it brilliantly. Just because someone doesn't do something on one occasion doesn't mean that they "can't" do it. :yeah: The three instructors I get requests for by the ladies are Nina, Lydia and Kate beause of the excellent way they explain style and movement from the female perspective.

djtrev

9th-January-2005, 03:34 PM

Quote:
Oh ... and another thing ..... what is all this cr*p said about their egos?
No Gus let me answer this one first
I dont think I referred to the Alist ego's I was actually referring to the egos on this forum.
In fact unless he was joking and I dont think he was, Gordon's reaction to not being included in your Alist was a pretty good example of someones ego being dented.I should say here that you can have a big ego and still be a very nice person which I am sure Gordon is.I dont want to get wrong with Gordon as well.
If any of your Alist take time to read these posts then I do apologise to them if they think I was referring to them.

I first came across Viktor at a Bisley weekender when he was with Lydia and to say I was impressed is an understatement.The pair of them were superb.It wasnt so much their style of teaching or the lesson that they taught that was impressive it was their sheer style.I have since then attended a freestyle evening during which Viktor did a lesson.That same lesson was later taught equally successfully at a MJ class night by two of your so called 'standard' teachers but they didn't do it with the same style.Therein as far as I am concerned lies the difference.

Gus

9th-January-2005, 03:49 PM

Quote:
Oh ... and another thing ..... what is all this cr*p said about their egos?
No Gus let me answer this one first
I dont think I referred to the Alist ego's I was actually referring to the egos on this forum.Ahhh ... the phrase I picked up is as below
But there is one thing that really does annoy me about this forum.It is this thing about A lists,Gods/Godesses and their over inflated ego's.Having read your response I can see what you were trying to say but I can hope you can see how your original quote could be read otherwise.

ChrisA

9th-January-2005, 05:12 PM

Oh ... and another thing ..... what is all this cr*p said about their egos? Have you ever met these guys? With no exception that are people who have taken out time (often for every little financial reward) to improve both dancers and the dancing scene generally. To accuse them of being egotistical is both wrong and highly offensive. I remember when I was a struggling intermediate and not known on the circuit ... and being totally in awe of the likes of Simon, Viktor and Nigel ..... during one memorable summer at different events I got chance to chat to these guys and all of them tool time out to help me out and give me some coaching. I know many 'standard' teachers who would not have shown the same courtesy.

...... :yeah:

Haven't been following this thread for a couple of days, but I will pick this out - totally agree.

The ego that I'm detecting is entirely coming from those who would like to be A-List but aren't, as far as I can tell.

As I think I said a little while back:

Those that mind, don't matter.

Those that matter, don't mind.

Chris

Bangers & Mash

9th-January-2005, 06:48 PM

Mikey

:rofl:
:innocent:

Now now Andy - it's not as if he's been smoking at your venues :whistle:

RogerR

9th-January-2005, 07:18 PM

Pricing is always based round three thoughts.

1/ How much can you ask?
2/ How much has it cost?
3/ How much does the competitor charge?

Whether there is an agreed A list is doubtful but there are names I respect for different aspects of MJ -- different names for different aspects.

Gus

9th-January-2005, 07:25 PM

Pricing is always based round three thoughts.

1/ How much can you ask?
2/ How much has it cost?
3/ How much does the competitor charge?
You forgot thought no 4. Based on 1) and 2) is it worth the effort?

RogerR

9th-January-2005, 07:36 PM

You have to set the prices before you know how many people will attend, so only in retrospect can you include the was it worth it factor.

Some people plan specials to run at a loss and recover this from the regular events, hoping that the specials will increase the value of the regular events.

Andreas

9th-January-2005, 07:36 PM

No argument. But I think you're missing my point - I'm sure many have teachers they prefer. But very few would argue that Nigel/Nina are the biggest teaching attraction in the UK - they definitely get the punters in.

Dave

That is well possible, as mentioned before, I haven't seen a lot of the highly regarded dance teachers in the UK. So I would not be able to argue that at all :D

There is also no doubt that the routine I saw them teach was very nice and I liked it. My intention was simply to point out that even people that are referred to as 'gods' or 'top of the tree' do have noticable weaknesses.

I am also aware that some people may have had to take a deep breath and read my blasphemic blob again in order to believe I did write that :) But there is something that I don't like and that is elevating people over others. It simply causes trouble/jealousy on one side and arrogance on the other. And for what?

However, I do agree that some people will draw in more dancers than others, there is no doubt about it. But again, that is not necessarily due to good teaching.

:flower: :cheers:

Gus

9th-January-2005, 07:54 PM

However, I do agree that some people will draw in more dancers than others, there is no doubt about it. But again, that is not necessarily due to good teaching.Maybe there is a similar analogy to 'pop' bands. I doubt that Busted are the most gifted musicians or that their teachnical skills on set are a beauty to behold ... but they do pull in the punters ... so I'm told.
OK ... in retrospect a lousy analogy but maybe you can see what I was trying to say

David Franklin

9th-January-2005, 08:09 PM

That is well possible, as mentioned before, I haven't seen a lot of the highly regarded dance teachers in the UK. So I would not be able to argue that at all :D

There is also no doubt that the routine I saw them teach was very nice and I liked it. My intention was simply to point out that even people that are referred to as 'gods' or 'top of the tree' do have noticable weaknesses.We're not in disagreement here. But in terms of popularity, and therefore what you can charge for a workshop, they are way, way up there... I know people who've travelled hundreds of miles (and therefore spent lots of money - damn British Rail!) to do their workshops. They have more competition now, but there was a time when they were just streets ahead of everyone else...

Outside of marketing, I think people need to make intelligent choices for themselves. I 'rank' teachers by whether they know what I want to learn, how well they can teach it, how much time they can give, and how much they charge. In particular, a 'B-list' teacher teaching a group of 20 is probably going to do me more good than an 'A+++' teacher with a group of 600...

Dave

MartinHarper

9th-January-2005, 08:28 PM

One benefit of weekenders over day workshops (to me) is less risk. If I find I dislike a particular class at a weekender, it's no big deal, whereas at a four hour day workshop, it'd be pretty unsalvageable.

In a day workshop [...] the organisers can plan for a good balance of men/women.

Weekend events seem to do the same, though?

djtrev

9th-January-2005, 09:13 PM

Quote;
But there is something that I don't like and that is elevating people over others. It simply causes trouble/jealousy on one side and arrogance on the other.

:yeah:

bigdjiver

9th-January-2005, 09:22 PM

Pricing is always based round three thoughts.

1/ How much can you ask?
2/ How much has it cost?
3/ How much does the competitor charge?...It is often far more complex than that.
The first consideration is why do you want to do it?
Secondly, is it a one off, or are you trying to build a reputation?
Sometimes profit is not a consideration. If it is for profit, is it to cover costs, or is it to maximise profit?
Costs vary with the target number of attendees, and the quality of the event, and the price. Usually the more you are charging the more you have to spend on promotion.
How much the competitor charges is often irrelevant, we live in a world of imperfect information, and often the perception is that quality is related to price.

Gus

9th-January-2005, 10:17 PM

Quote;
But there is something that I don't like and that is elevating people over others. It simply causes trouble/jealousy on one side and arrogance on the other. When my brother was at school (comprehensive) the move was to ban all kinds of competition because it made those who didnt excel feel bad :confused: .... this statement seems to follow a similar logic .. "just because A isnt as good as B lets not praise B because A might feel bad". Come on guys! From what I've seen on this forum the problem hasn't been with those who deserve to be lauded but with those who know in their heart of hearts they will never be able to attain that level of competence. I've had a number of PMs about people comparing themselves to the likes of Viktor when I wouldnt let them teach a baginners lesson at my venue never mind let them loose with a workshop!

Praise capable people ... thats how the dancers know who are the guys to learn from. As a teacher I see it as my duty to promote those teachers and dancers who my dancers can learn from. I also see it as my duty to point out charlatans and teachers who's self promotional capabiltiy are far in excess of their miniscule ability ... and believe me there are a fair few in my region as well as the Forum.

Gadget

9th-January-2005, 11:16 PM

I think you are missing the piont. Ceroc is well known for keeping its punters in dark about non-Ceroc instructors.
In saying that, I know that the Ceroc instructors up here have a lot to teach and are not that bad at it {<-modest} Why go further afeild?
The main "problem" I see in the Ceroc teacher model is that they all teach the same thing from the same bible; the opportunity for specialist workshops is not really there. Most of the workshops are generic "beginners" or "Improvers" workshops where the subjects covered are generic and vague or it's pot luck what exactly comes up in a workshop as to what is taught in detail.
In recent times I have seen Franck re-dress this and have regular teachers doing specific workshops that play to their strengths {:worthy:}, but this seems only to be for "events".
Probably makes more sense this way, but would a 'regular' workshop of a couple of hours before a party be a good idea? Limited numbers, specific 'specialist' subjects, party to practice on afterwords... thoughts?

Another idea sparked by the 10% of regular attendees would know a "named" dancer: having known dancers on a normal club floor invited as 'sponsors' to novices in an informal "workshop" enviroment led by the regular teacher. Not thought it out yet, but if there is a 'problem' with only a handfull of people knowing "named" teacher, perhaps it could work to a clubs advantage?
Another idea may be having "guest teachers" every couple of months - and perhaps having them teach somthing subtally different or themed?

Workshops: They are intended to be there for you to learn how to dance better; but how long before you can absorb and implement the concepts being put forward into your own dancing? Does 'information overload' come into play at ay point? How many workshops over a weekend before it hits? Do the workshops themselves suffer because there is so much choice?
While it's possible to cram five or six workshops into one weekend, it then leaves people picking and choosing between them to get the best out of it or trying them all and getting a little from each. I don't know which is better - from either a dancer's point of view in improving, a venue organiser's view in numbers or cash.?

djtrev

10th-January-2005, 12:02 AM

Even though I think you are an old trouble maker and just like to stir people up Gus :wink: :wink: I am going to agree with you here..
Quote:
From what I've seen on this forum the problem hasn't been with those who deserve to be lauded but with those who know in their heart of hearts they will never be able to attain that level of competence.

It may appear that I am putting my own self down here but I have to be honest and admit that I do envy the position that some people on this forum have attained in the MJ world.

Gus

10th-January-2005, 12:18 AM

Even though I think you are an old trouble maker and just like to stir people up Gus Old ... maybe, trouble maker .. nope ...... just like to put an alternative view ... oh, and occaisionaly let the facts have a chance to speak for themselves. :D

ChrisA

10th-January-2005, 12:20 AM

trouble maker .. nope ......

just like to put an alternative view ...

A word to the wise, Gus, if I may...

Stick to the credible :wink:

Andy McGregor

10th-January-2005, 07:19 AM

Now now Andy - it's not as if he's been smoking at your venues :whistle:
No, but I've just left the Bognor dance weekend where I had to share the dance floor with a simulated horizontal fornication - guess who it was?

This type of act is nothing to do with dance and everything to do with Maslow's 2nd need :wink:

Andreas

10th-January-2005, 01:31 PM

Praise capable people ... thats how the dancers know who are the guys to learn from. As a teacher I see it as my duty to promote those teachers and dancers who my dancers can learn from. I also see it as my duty to point out charlatans and teachers who's self promotional capabiltiy are far in excess of their miniscule ability ... and believe me there are a fair few in my region as well as the Forum.

Pointing out charlatans is a valid idea, because they do harm. But if people really are as good as you think, they will know it. Why shout it out? Have you ever considered that these people may feel embarrassed by the praise? Or if not by the praise by the fact that you rank them at the top and thus exposing them to the jealousy of others?

I know your intentions are good, but trust me the repercussions are not only positive!
:cheers:

Feelingpink

10th-January-2005, 01:36 PM

Pinting out charlatans is a valid idea ...
:cheers:

Is that drinking them under the table? :devil: :rofl: :rofl:

Andreas

10th-January-2005, 01:38 PM

Is that drinking them under the table? :devil: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl:

For a moment I thought you had changed the quote but then noticed my typo :rofl: :blush:

David Franklin

10th-January-2005, 01:50 PM

Pointing out charlatans is a valid idea, because they do harm. But if people really are as good as you think, they will know it. Why shout it out? Have you ever considered that these people may feel embarrassed by the praise? Or if not by the praise by the fact that you rank them at the top and thus exposing them to the jealousy of others?But how do you get people to turn out for a workshop if you don't 'sell' the instructor? The obvious example would be Jordan/Tatianna; I don't know what it cost to get them over here, but just the expenses would have been a lot. Could Katie have justified that without making sure everyone knew just how good they were?

I take your point about the bad side of all this, but I think if you want to teach workshops, you have to accept being "out there" for criticism / evaluation. I do think everybody (both punter and teacher) takes the whole 'A-list' thing too seriously - only one person can be judged 'the best' and most will disagree about who it is anyhow! And you can learn from the 2nd best, or the 3rd best, or the 73rd best... You can even learn from people you are 'better' than... :devil:

Dave

Andreas

10th-January-2005, 05:43 PM

But how do you get people to turn out for a workshop if you don't 'sell' the instructor? The obvious example would be Jordan/Tatianna; I don't know what it cost to get them over here, but just the expenses would have been a lot. Could Katie have justified that without making sure everyone knew just how good they were?

I take your point about the bad side of all this, but I think if you want to teach workshops, you have to accept being "out there" for criticism / evaluation. I do think everybody (both punter and teacher) takes the whole 'A-list' thing too seriously - only one person can be judged 'the best' and most will disagree about who it is anyhow! And you can learn from the 2nd best, or the 3rd best, or the 73rd best... You can even learn from people you are 'better' than... :devil:

Dave

Don't get me wrong, I was not opposing advertising teachers! I was opposing categorising them -> A class, B class. Pointing out what they have achieved and can do should be sufficient.

I agree, I frequently watched even beginners and picked up tricks for moves that they just had worked out for themselves and I had not. You are never too good to learn from anybody. Just as much as nobody is ever too good or too bad to dance with another person. That is why I am against categorising people because it creates a gap.

:cheers:

Leo

11th-January-2005, 01:42 AM

Firstly they are worth it! Secondly, if you had to take out 36 hours of your life (many instructors come up on the Friday and don’t leave till early Sunday), prepare a 4 hour workshop (which is probably at least 3 mandays work) .... how much should you get paid? These are the best in their class yet punters expect them to be paid an hourly rate below minimum wage!

And you would be?? :whistle: If you could achieve the same impact on a group of dancers as Viktor or Amir and pull the crowds as well ... they I'd hire you at the same rate. Slight problem is there aren't any Ceroc instructors who have the same pulling power in the NWest .... but please feel free to correct me. :rolleyes:

Helloooo ... this is the real world ... if I'm doing dance stuff I'm not earning and I've not a charity. Real world lesson .... I can take up to 4 mandays in preparation, organisation and promotion of a workshop. With instructor fees, venues costs, promotional costs and other expenses a workshop can cost around £700 to put on .... and pull in about £800 .. if I'm lucky. Do you do 4 days work for £100

1. My name is not important, I know it, my partner knows it and the rest just sit and watch, saying don't I know you from somewhere....

2. Do I detect a hint of frustration in your voice

3. Yes to all the above, I have tried on three occasions to get my own clubs, classes and events off the ground but you can not compete with the big boys. I have a lot of contact and alot of support from people inside the ceroc circle but you cannot compete with them as you get squished.

4. I never said I taught for ceroc, work for, demoed for and covered classes, taxied, watched the door, competed, slaved my f'ing ass off for, run workshops, put on events and displays but i always refused to comit myself to being a ceroc clone.

5. Never been to manchester in my life.

Leo

11th-January-2005, 01:43 AM

Oh and 4a. Forgot to put in **** on by.........

Andy McGregor

11th-January-2005, 01:56 AM

1. My name is not important, I know it, my partner knows it and the rest just sit and watch, saying don't I know you from somewhere....

There speaks a person with something to hide. Come on Leo what in your life is so embarrassing that you won't tell us who you are? As there are so many successful competitors on the forum we could probably work out who you are by an elimination process, please save us the trouble :wink:

Gus

11th-January-2005, 01:57 AM

3. Yes to all the above, I have tried on three occasions to get my own clubs, classes and events off the ground but you can not compete with the big boys. I have a lot of contact and alot of support from people inside the ceroc circle but you cannot compete with them as you get squished.Au contraire ... Cool Catz competes with both Ceroc and Blitz and is kicking a** :waycool: Likewise ... I belive Hipsters and T-Jive are managing to eek an existence :whistle:

Leo

11th-January-2005, 02:09 AM

Au contraire ... Cool Catz competes with both Ceroc and Blitz and is kicking a** :waycool: Likewise ... I belive Hipsters and T-Jive are managing to eek an existence :whistle:

Best of luck my man

Andy McGregor

11th-January-2005, 02:10 AM

Best of luck my man

I think you forgot to tell us who you are :confused:

Leo

11th-January-2005, 02:12 AM

There speaks a person with something to hide. Come on Leo what in your life is so embarrassing that you won't tell us who you are? As there are so many successful competitors on the forum we could probably work out who you are by an elimination process, please save us the trouble :wink:

Indeed indeed, never a truer word said. Did you see him, did you get a good look at his face, could you pick him ooot in a crowd? I don't think so.

You start at A and i'll meet you at Blackpool somwhere betwixt there and Z

Bill

11th-January-2005, 11:08 PM

Don't get me wrong, I was not opposing advertising teachers! I was opposing categorising them -> A class, B class. Pointing out what they have achieved and can do should be sufficient.

:cheers:

I haven't been on the forum much for a while so apologies if some of this is covered earlier or elsewhere but isn't it difficult not to categorise teachers just as it is dancers - on the whole??? ie good at wcs, great at 'blues', a great leader, follower, most stylish etc.......

There are constant references to A list dancers and teachers , though the lists will change according to individual styles and preferences but generally the same names will crop up from those willing to offer a list eg N & N, Amir, Viktor etc....

Any promoter is going to advertise their teachers as being the, or amongst, the best and possibly list awards, successes etc which may or may not actually mean very much.

There are now so many events, weekenders etc it must be getting difficult to get hold of those recognised as the best so is this a good thing? If a promoter can't get Amir, N & N, Viktor or others deemed to be on the A list but can get Fred and Jean from wherever does this mean that the unknown/ lesser known teachers can develop and get recognition or that many 'punters' will be left with poorer teachers??

It does seem that more and more couples are appearing as teachers who have no obvious track record or have possibly been sucessful at one competition. Not every good couple enters competitions and yes, everyone has to start somewhere but with the proliferation of events will everyone have an opportunity to teach something????? Will we all have our 15 mins of (dance) fame ??????

RogerR

11th-January-2005, 11:25 PM

People who aspire to A list status have to compete to get known, After the comps the promoters will chose to invite those they think will attract members to their club.

Gus

12th-January-2005, 12:59 AM

People who aspire to A list status have to compete to get known, After the comps the promoters will chose to invite those they think will attract members to their club.Sorry ... dont think so .... I asked Amir to teach for us in 2002 after seeing his demo at Camber. Rokoff has been asked to teach on numerous occsasions and I'm not aware he has won any major trophies. Before the JiveMasters ... who has seen Viktor, Nina, Amir etc in a competition? I've seen more people who I would invite to teach who have NOT been a major competition winner than those who have. Winning competitions is a way of gaining attention but it gives absolutley NO indication as to the couples teaching ability.

Andreas

12th-January-2005, 10:06 AM

Sorry ... dont think so .... I asked Amir to teach for us in 2002 after seeing his demo at Camber. Rokoff has been asked to teach on numerous occsasions and I'm not aware he has won any major trophies. Before the JiveMasters ... who has seen Viktor, Nina, Amir etc in a competition? I've seen more people who I would invite to teach who have NOT been a major competition winner than those who have. Winning competitions is a way of gaining attention but it gives absolutley NO indication as to the couples teaching ability.

:yeah:

Andreas

12th-January-2005, 10:11 AM

I haven't been on the forum much for a while so apologies if some of this is covered earlier or elsewhere but isn't it difficult not to categorise teachers just as it is dancers - on the whole??? ie good at wcs, great at 'blues', a great leader, follower, most stylish etc.......

There are constant references to A list dancers and teachers , though the lists will change according to individual styles and preferences but generally the same names will crop up from those willing to offer a list eg N & N, Amir, Viktor etc....

Any promoter is going to advertise their teachers as being the, or amongst, the best and possibly list awards, successes etc which may or may not actually mean very much.

There are now so many events, weekenders etc it must be getting difficult to get hold of those recognised as the best so is this a good thing? If a promoter can't get Amir, N & N, Viktor or others deemed to be on the A list but can get Fred and Jean from wherever does this mean that the unknown/ lesser known teachers can develop and get recognition or that many 'punters' will be left with poorer teachers??

It does seem that more and more couples are appearing as teachers who have no obvious track record or have possibly been sucessful at one competition. Not every good couple enters competitions and yes, everyone has to start somewhere but with the proliferation of events will everyone have an opportunity to teach something????? Will we all have our 15 mins of (dance) fame ??????

I was not negating the fact that you have to make preferences but that people are categorised and that this causes tension. I think my last post or second to last explains that.

As Gus stated just after you, competitions don't necessarily mean a thing. I'd like to see dancers freestyle to get a picture of their abilities. Competition means rehersed and hence in many cases not representative for dancers general ability.

:cheers:

Gadget

12th-January-2005, 11:46 AM

I was not negating the fact that you have to make preferences but that people are categorised and that this causes tension. I think my last post or second to last explains that.
While I agree with the sentiment, I don't agree with the practicality or reality of it:
The tag "A-list" is derived from tabloid and gossip magazines to indicate who they see as the the top of their feild (normally that's getting invited to lots of parties.) As such, the term carries this social context and is used in promotion. Teachers are in business - selling themselves and their tallents; promotion is part of this.
Being left off of someone's 'A' list is not that important; however the more 'A' lsits they can get on, the more their exposure, the better their promotion and the better their reputation.

As Gus stated just after you, competitions don't necessarily mean a thing. I'd like to see dancers freestyle to get a picture of their abilities. Competition means rehersed and hence in many cases not representative for dancers general ability.
lots to dissagree with here :wink:
"Competitions don't necessarily mean a thing." Two teachers, neither of which you have seen or heard of are billed at a weekend - one has a list of titles won, the other none. Who's are you more likley to sign up to?
Never mind the work, practice and time that went into winning - and what was learned on that road.

"I'd like to see dancers freestyle to get a picture of their abilities" This gets an idea of how they dance, not how they teach: go by this and you may as well go by competition results.

"Competition means rehersed and hence in many cases not representative for dancers general ability." Again you are going on dance ability = teaching ability. And practice does not equal "rehersed" (unless you are talking about cabaret or showcase)

MartinHarper

12th-January-2005, 12:07 PM

Two teachers, neither of which you have seen or heard of are billed at a weekend - one has a list of titles won, the other none. Whose are you more likely to sign up to?

I'd primarilly be going by the description of the teachers on the weekend's literature, and the name of the class - trying to pick the teacher best suited to me, rather than the best teacher.

Andreas

12th-January-2005, 12:12 PM

While I agree with the sentiment, I don't agree with the practicality or reality of it:
The tag "A-list" is derived from tabloid and gossip magazines to indicate who they see as the the top of their feild (normally that's getting invited to lots of parties.) As such, the term carries this social context and is used in promotion. Teachers are in business - selling themselves and their tallents; promotion is part of this.

That has been addressed earlier in this thread. your 'A list' will look significantly different to my 'A list', apart from the fact that I do not have one . So if you put one person on a list I may well say 'utter cr*p' and vice versa. So the categorisation is not a valid thing to do and only causes tension.

lots to dissagree with here :wink:
"Competitions don't necessarily mean a thing." Two teachers, neither of which you have seen or heard of are billed at a weekend - one has a list of titles won, the other none. Who's are you more likley to sign up to?
Never mind the work, practice and time that went into winning - and what was learned on that road.

A long list of titles gets my curiosity but not necessarily has me sign up. I need to have seen people to gauge if they do something I wish to learn. Everybody else is being treated pretty similar. Same accounts for your last sentence there. I have seen many competition winners or people that were placed and their general freestyle ability lacked badly because they could only strutt difficult rehersed stuff that they either could not lead properly or the girls could not follow. On the girls side, many of those girls were so used to one person due to that much practice they did not follow well because they were used to a range of moves and to 'precognition' rather than following.

"I'd like to see dancers freestyle to get a picture of their abilities" This gets an idea of how they dance, not how they teach: go by this and you may as well go by competition results.

"Competition means rehersed and hence in many cases not representative for dancers general ability." Again you are going on dance ability = teaching ability. And practice does not equal "rehersed" (unless you are talking about cabaret or showcase)

I do agree here. But the first step is to see if people have anything to offer. Going by others opinion of 'good teaching' is very shakey as it is subjective. So that is something that is based on trial and error.

Essentially, you'll get bored out of your tree if you go to a class/workshop of a teacher that explains extremely well but does not offer anything you wish to learn. The trouble is that most people do not approach workshops with 'what can I learn' but 'I want to learn this' attitude. Hence their attention will laps for quite some part of the class/workshop as soon as they think they know it already.

Practicing for competitions in the vast majority of all cases means rehersing sequences. ALL competitions that I have seen so far had been dominated (in terms of numbers) by people that were dancing mini routines and not freestyle in the freestyle events. Mini routines refers to groups of four or five moves that are being connected in varying order. This is rehersed. The moves in those are practiced.

:cheers:

Andreas

12th-January-2005, 12:17 PM

I'd primarilly be going by the description of the teachers on the weekend's literature, and the name of the class - trying to pick the teacher best suited to me, rather than the best teacher.

:yeah: :cheers: :worthy:

ChrisA

12th-January-2005, 12:56 PM

ALL competitions that I have seen so far had been dominated (in terms of numbers) by people that were dancing mini routines and not freestyle in the freestyle events. Mini routines refers to groups of four or five moves that are being connected in varying order. This is rehersed. The moves in those are practiced.

If you'd said that the groups of four or five moves were connected in the same order all the time (which I haven't seen), then I'd agree that it would constitute a mini-routine.

However, what's freestyle if not groups of moves, chosen from a repertoire, connected in varying order? Hopefully also with varying timings and accents to suit the music, of course, and hopefully usable also in mix-and-match fragments as well as the way they might have been taught in a class.

What tends to happen in comps is that some moves are more attention-grabbing (and consequently need more rehearsal to make them look good) than others, and a given couple will tend to use them more than once - certainly over more than one round. So you look at the couples that do really well, and over several rounds and/or comps you see them do the same moves. You might not like the rate at which they make changes to their repertoire and/or style, and get bored watching them as a result.

But I don't think it's fair to suggest that what they're doing isn't freestyle.

Chris

Andreas

12th-January-2005, 01:06 PM

If you'd said that the groups of four or five moves were connected in the same order all the time (which I haven't seen), then I'd agree that it would constitute a mini-routine.

I appears our definition of routine differes there.

However, what's freestyle if not groups of moves, chosen from a repertoire, connected in varying order? Hopefully also with varying timings and accents to suit the music, of course, and hopefully usable also in mix-and-match fragments as well as the way they might have been taught in a class.

To me FREESTYLE is doing moves to the music, not 'groups' of moves. Doing random (but suitable) moves requires the ability to lead those moves. Doing groups of moves only REQUIRES the ability to lead the first move because subsquent moves can be 'guessed'

But I don't think it's fair to suggest that what they're doing isn't freestyle.

Quite frankly, if the rate of repetition in a competition is too high and the range of moves (depending on level) too small then I have always downgraded dancers because they make their lives too easy. At least I do not reward 'laziness. I reward effort ;) Consequently, the people I trained did not step on the floor doing mini routines and plenty of repetition.

ChrisA

12th-January-2005, 01:10 PM

I have seen many competition winners or people that were placed and their general freestyle ability lacked badly because they could only strutt difficult rehersed stuff that they either could not lead properly or the girls could not follow. On the girls side, many of those girls were so used to one person due to that much practice they did not follow well because they were used to a range of moves and to 'precognition' rather than following.
This may well be true in some cases, but I think there's a frequently-seen myth buried in this comment, to the effect that if partners rehearse enough, lead and follow becomes less necessary.

This isn't true. The difficult rehearsed stuff still needs to be led and followed, and if it isn't, it looks and feels awful, and can't be danced musically, since of course, you don't know what the music is going to be ahead of time. And because it's difficult, the lead and follow need to be better than for simple stuff.

In my very limited experience of practising for competitions, most of what we do centres on how to lead and follow the more difficult things, so that they all flow together - and look as if the freestyled combinations are showcases when in fact they aren't. Not that we always succeed, of course :tears:

Chris

ChrisA

12th-January-2005, 01:22 PM

To me FREESTYLE is doing moves to the music, not 'groups' of moves.

Of course, but they're all chosen from a repertoire, even if what is danced is the assembly of fragments of moves, put together in real time, in a sequence very different from the way they might originally have been taught in a class. That repertoire needs to be practised to make it look and feel as good as possible.

Doing random (but suitable) moves requires the ability to lead those moves.
True.

Doing groups of moves only REQUIRES the ability to lead the first move because subsquent moves can be 'guessed'
False.

The subsequent moves still need to be led and followed. Otherwise the lack of connection makes it impossible to dance them musically, and as I said before, will make them look and feel awful, thus detracting generally from the quality of the dance.

Quite frankly, if the rate of repetition in a competition is too high and the range of moves (depending on level) too small then I have always downgraded dancers because they make their lives too easy.
Sure. No argument there. But that means that the dancers need to work on extending their repertoire, making their style more interesting, and learning to dance what they know more musically. I'll put my hand up straight away and say that I need to do all of that...

... but it's a long way from saying that people are just dancing choreographed material.

Chris

RobC

12th-January-2005, 01:39 PM

I appears our definition of routine differes there.
Uh huh :yeah:

To me FREESTYLE is doing moves to the music, not 'groups' of moves.
And how do you define 'A MOVE' ?

Personally, when teaching anything above beginner level, you could say that I just teach a single move in the whole class, since most of the time there isn't a break in the flow of the sequence, no obvious end point such as a return and has no individually identifiable names to the component that make up the 'routine'. Of course in reality, the sequence will in fact be merging together parts of the basic beginners moves in such a fashion that say the first part of a first move flows into the second part of a basket variation which links directly into a double man-spin combo with shoulder-drop duck under into comb. Now I will obviously break this down into components to teach it, but is it one move that lasts for 4 bars of music ? Or is it an amalgamation of 6 beginners moves with a twist ?

MartinHarper

12th-January-2005, 02:20 PM

Is it one move that lasts for 4 bars of music ? Or is it an amalgamation of 6 beginners moves with a twist ?

I don't know.
I do know that if you prearrange to do this precise move (or moves) with your partner, then in my eyes you're not dancing pure freestyle, at least for the duration of that move (or moves).
*shrug*

spindr

12th-January-2005, 02:24 PM

I think you can sometimes tell when watching when there's a "step-change" into a little "pre-prepared improvisation".

At least when I've thought I've seen it, there seems to be a couple of simple moves to get both partners into the right position and then it looks like both partners take a deep breath and then dance something with more concentration than usual that looks fairly choreographed and with a style that's completely different than the rest of their dancing. For example dancing a lot of mirrored footwork (ballroom jive style flick-ball-change-swivels or whatever) when there's no other footwork in the rest of their dancing. And then the same improvisation appears semi-regularly during the course of the "freestyle".

There's nothing wrong at all with dancing set of moves in freestyle that you already know go well together -- but I don't think that there shouldn't be an obvious join -- well unless the music merits it.

Of course in reality, the sequence will in fact be merging together parts of the basic beginners moves in such a fashion that say the first part of a first move flows into the second part of a basket variation which links directly into a double man-spin combo with shoulder-drop duck under into comb.

Oooh -- when are you teaching that one? I like multiple spins.

SpinDr.

Andreas

12th-January-2005, 02:33 PM

Uh huh :yeah:

And how do you define 'A MOVE' ?

Personally, when teaching anything above beginner level, you could say that I just teach a single move in the whole class, since most of the time there isn't a break in the flow of the sequence, no obvious end point such as a return and has no individually identifiable names to the component that make up the 'routine'. Of course in reality, the sequence will in fact be merging together parts of the basic beginners moves in such a fashion that say the first part of a first move flows into the second part of a basket variation which links directly into a double man-spin combo with shoulder-drop duck under into comb. Now I will obviously break this down into components to teach it, but is it one move that lasts for 4 bars of music ? Or is it an amalgamation of 6 beginners moves with a twist ?

:)

You answer your own question. You are naming several moves that you 'merge' by not inserting a return. There is no definition that a move has to end with a return (or exit for that matter). By naming certain moves you state what you are use. Even if you call it 'tug a variation of this move smoothly on to a variation of that move in double execution and slow down the transition to the variation of that move before you execute a variation of yet another move at double speed. :wink: :flower:

Andreas

12th-January-2005, 02:34 PM

I don't know.
I do know that if you prearrange to do this precise move (or moves) with your partner, then in my eyes you're not dancing pure freestyle, at least for the duration of that move (or moves).
*shrug*

:yeah: :worthy:

Gadget

12th-January-2005, 02:34 PM

That has been addressed earlier in this thread. your 'A list' will look significantly different to my 'A list', apart from the fact that I do not have one . So if you put one person on a list I may well say 'utter cr*p' and vice versa. So the categorisation is not a valid thing to do and only causes tension.
Indeed, our 'A' lists probably differ, however that's not the point: the point is that we both rate teachers. "Publishing" what we see as the top of this list (our "A-list") should not form any "tension"; it's an opinion. Putting "A-list" on literature should not form any "tension"; it's marketing.

A long list of titles gets my curiosity but not necessarily has me sign up. I need to have seen people to gauge if they do something I wish to learn.So you would never attend a workshop or class to learn anything if it's held by someone you have not seen? As I said; If it's a choice between two workshops, would a long list of accoumplishments against one and nothing against the other sway your descision? If the answer is "yes", then competition results are in no way meaningless.

Going by others opinion of 'good teaching' is very shakey as it is subjective. There are some people I would take the advice of a "good teacher", there are others I would not. Generally, if dancers I admire or respect say "he/she is good", then I would trust their opinion enough to sway me for one teacher over another in the above scenario.

The trouble is that most people do not approach workshops with 'what can I learn' but 'I want to learn this' attitude.
Have they not already said "I want to learn this" by signing up for a titled workshop? That only leaves "What can I learn". {I don't really comprehend how you can go into a specific workshop with a view of exactly what you want to learn and have it different from the subject covered.}

ALL competitions that I have seen so far had been dominated by people that were dancing mini routines and not freestyle in the freestyle events.
~
To me FREESTYLE is doing moves to the music, not 'groups' of moves. Doing random (but suitable) moves requires the ability to lead those moves. Doing groups of moves only REQUIRES the ability to lead the first move because subsquent moves can be 'guessed'
The main "problem" is with perception; what should a perfectly led move look like? Should you be able to actually see the lead? If not, then how can you tell if it's 'proper' lead and follow as opposed to lead and regurgitate?
Does repetition of the same move indicate a routine? I know that in freestyle I have a couple of micro-routines I use; am I no-longer dancing 'freestyle' if I apply them? Am I 'lazy' to use them instead of ad-libbing something new and origional?

So, if teachers who win competitions do so on the merrits of rehersed routines, can this add nothing to their own knowledge of practice, what can go wrong, what can be done to fix it, what looks good, what looks bad, tricky leads, subtle changes to feel for in following, listening to music,... ?
I submit that competition wins show not only that a teacher is a good dancer, but that they have the commitment and experiance of actually dancing; they have practiced and analysed their own dancing; they probably have a lot of knowledge that they could impart.
However, it does not show how good a teacher they are.
Example: David & Lilly Barker - From having been to a couple of workshops with them and experianced both their teaching and dancing, I would say that the ammount of knowledge and tallent in dancing that they have outweighs their teaching skills: They are dancers passing on what they have learned rather than teachers passing on what others have learned. My personal opinion is that you could learn far more from them if you (as a pupil) take controll of what you want to learn about a specific subject rather than have them try and work out what bits to teach, what bits are too advanced, what bits are relevant,... Not brilliant teachers, but what they teach has been distilled by their own dancing so that it comes out shining on the other side. Not great teachers, but would run an "A-List" workshop {IMHO - and please don't ask what I think makes a "great teacher"...}.

David Franklin

12th-January-2005, 02:46 PM

Example: David & Lilly Barker - From having been to a couple of workshops with them and experianced both their teaching and dancing, I would say that the ammount of knowledge and tallent in dancing that they have outweighs their teaching skills: They are dancers passing on what they have learned rather than teachers passing on what others have learned. ~snip~ Not great teachers, but would run an "A-List" workshop {IMHO - and please don't ask what I think makes a "great teacher"...}.The thing is, teaching is like anything else, it takes practice - and practice teaching the particular thing as well. It was very enlightening to do an airsteps workshop with Andy and Rena where they taught a new set of moves for the first time. It was well below their normal standard - they might have known how to do the moves themselves, but they didn't (yet) know all the ways other people could get them wrong, need help, etc... Similarly, I'd say David & Lily have got a lot more experienced about teaching to MJ dancers over time.

Dave

Andreas

12th-January-2005, 03:05 PM

So you would never attend a workshop or class to learn anything if it's held by someone you have not seen? As I said; If it's a choice between two workshops, would a long list of accoumplishments against one and nothing against the other sway your descision? If the answer is "yes", then competition results are in no way meaningless.

MartinHarper has posted what I left out. I choose by content in the first place, not by person. If there is nothing in the list of workshops that catches my eye I will either go to a random one or need to have seen people.

There are some people I would take the advice of a "good teacher", there are others I would not. Generally, if dancers I admire or respect say "he/she is good", then I would trust their opinion enough to sway me for one teacher over another in the above scenario.

That is something I have stopped doing: going by admiration of others. I have been disappointed too often.

The main "problem" is with perception; what should a perfectly led move look like? Should you be able to actually see the lead? If not, then how can you tell if it's 'proper' lead and follow as opposed to lead and regurgitate?

I am not sure if it is experience but I do notice when a move is lead or anticipated.

Does repetition of the same move indicate a routine? I know that in freestyle I have a couple of micro-routines I use; am I no-longer dancing 'freestyle' if I apply them? Am I 'lazy' to use them instead of ad-libbing something new and origional?

In strict term, no, you aren't freestyling when you start using you 'micro routines' because you are performing routines even if they are only tiny. Of course it is generally accepted to do mini routines (micro routines) in freestyle events but, again strictly speaking, it is actually not freestyle. To put that simple, one or two moves of this mini routine could fit perfect to the music but the other one or two or three don't. So you are actually 'not doing the best you can' to interpret the music. ;)

So, if teachers who win competitions do so on the merrits of rehersed routines, can this add nothing to their own knowledge of practice, what can go wrong, what can be done to fix it, what looks good, what looks bad, tricky leads, subtle changes to feel for in following, listening to music,... ?

Of course they do learn from that practice. Well, one hopes so anyway :)

As mentioned above, routines ONLY ever do music complete justice if they are in a showcase, for obvious reasons. In mini routines you put moves in sequence that go well together, not knowing what the music is going to do when you are half way through that sequence ;)

I submit that competition wins show not only that a teacher is a good dancer, but that they have the commitment and experiance of actually dancing; they have practiced and analysed their own dancing; they probably have a lot of knowledge that they could impart.

Well, in OZ last year there was a (I think) winning couple in advanced open and the girl had only been doing Ceroc for less than 6 months if I am not mistaken. So winning a competition does not give any pointers towards experience. It also does not tell you how well this person can dance (with others). It does, however, show commitment and good preparation.

However, it does not show how good a teacher they are.

.......dancers passing on what they have learned rather than teachers passing on what others have learned.

That is absolutely correct. Teaching qualities are hit and miss first time around. This also relativates (kind of) my previous statement of seeing people dance and I admit that it is difficult to gauge that by anything but reputation.

David Franklin

12th-January-2005, 03:32 PM

As mentioned above, routines ONLY ever do music complete justice if they are in a showcase, for obvious reasons. Counterpoint: I have seen two 'pairs' of routines by world exhibition champions. One 'pair' of routines was by Tommye and Gregory; in this case, although the routines were to completely different pieces of music, the first 60 seconds were identical to the point that you could play them simultaneously - the lifts, the transitions, the gestures and accents were all the same (there was a drift of about 2 seconds). The others were by Victor da Silva and two different partners. Again, 2 completely different music choices, but the routines were very similar (not as close as the other pair - the timing was different, and a couple of lifts were changed, but definiely using a common 'script'). I'm not entirely sure what this says about musicality but I offer it for consideration. :wink:

In mini routines you put moves in sequence that go well together, not knowing what the music is going to do when you are half way through that sequence ;)Not sure I'd agree - most music is actually pretty predictable. If you choreograph in sets of 8 counts, it might actually look more musical than many people's attempts to dance to the music. And if the music is particularly uninspiring, you may be better off "throwing in the moves" than trying to find some non-existent accents...

In terms of "repetition", here's an interesting question? If a couple followed the WCS approach - mainly basic moves, lots of emphasis on musicality, how would you mark them? Given that they might repeat each of those basics 10 or more times during the dance. [From your posts, I'm sure you'd mark them highly. But I'm not sure how they 'should' be marked under MJ standards. The current criteria do generally include difficulty and complexity of moves, after all...]

Dave

RobC

12th-January-2005, 03:33 PM

:)

You answer your own question. You are naming several moves that you 'merge' by not inserting a return. There is no definition that a move has to end with a return (or exit for that matter). By naming certain moves you state what you are use. Even if you call it 'tug a variation of this move smoothly on to a variation of that move in double execution and slow down the transition to the variation of that move before you execute a variation of yet another move at double speed. :wink: :flower:
Sorry to go off on a tangent again, but you completely missed my point. I wasn't saying "Is it one move or two if I missout the return ?", I was asking at what point a particular arrangement of movements, based on parts of what most people would recognise as basic moves, intertwined and linked in such a way as there is no 'end point' and trying to perform each component in isolation makes no sense or is just straight impossible, when do you consider that one long move ?

The example I quoted before was a non-sensible random choice of names of beginner moves, as possibly didnt give the right impression I was after. To give you another example, this is the routine I taught last sunday. It was not taught in seperate components and then linked to each previous component as is the typical Ceroc style, but built up from the start of the routine adding on each new bit as it flowed together:

Start with a travelling back-hander and as you change sides, lean out against each other counter balancing each other's weight.
Continuing the use of counter balancing for the lady to put a little improvised hip-twist, then moving off forwards again, still counter balanced with a small footwork pattern, guys using the weight transfer to bring the ladies forward through into a kinda-basket pull-through movement and back out to the counter balanced lean. (None of this yet has any stops, breaks or anything else which could indicate the end of a move).
The guys then, using weight transfer again bring the ladies forward and wrap then in one and a quarter turns so they are in sort of a basket hold, lady in front of the guys. (This is the first point at which the routine really 'stops', but is can't be the end of a move as it is part way into the next sequence.)
The routine continues into a 'Titanic-styley' lean and swivel for the ladies with the guys counter balancing again, and as the ladies come into the side, double turning them to unwrap into a double ****-handed lean out.
The routine is finished off with a change of place, guys taking both hands up over respective heads with a flick spin on the end.

So, one move ? None of the components could really be danced in isolation and as such can't be considered moves in their own right, and in calling the routine out, it definitely felt like one move - I was completely out of breath by the end of it as there was little opportunity to gasp a fresh breath.

Andreas

12th-January-2005, 03:56 PM

Start with a travelling back-hander and as you change sides, lean out against each other counter balancing each other's weight.
Continuing the use of counter balancing for the lady to put a little improvised hip-twist, then moving off forwards again, still counter balanced with a small footwork pattern, guys using the weight transfer to bring the ladies forward through into a kinda-basket pull-through movement and back out to the counter balanced lean. (None of this yet has any stops, breaks or anything else which could indicate the end of a move).
The guys then, using weight transfer again bring the ladies forward and wrap then in one and a quarter turns so they are in sort of a basket hold, lady in front of the guys. (This is the first point at which the routine really 'stops', but is can't be the end of a move as it is part way into the next sequence.)
The routine continues into a 'Titanic-styley' lean and swivel for the ladies with the guys counter balancing again, and as the ladies come into the side, double turning them to unwrap into a double ****-handed lean out.
The routine is finished off with a change of place, guys taking both hands up over respective heads with a flick spin on the end.

So, one move ? None of the components could really be danced in isolation and as such can't be considered moves in their own right, and in calling the routine out, it definitely felt like one move - I was completely out of breath by the end of it as there was little opportunity to gasp a fresh breath.

So you did

- a travelling backhander
- possibly what we called in Rhumba a Fence Line
- a basket pull-through variation
- another Fence Line
- basket with lady in front of guy
.......
and all smoothly connected by style elements.

Fact is, even if I do a cradle drop with a swooping exit straight into a guys double reverse spin under his own hand followed by a double-speed girl's double spin into a sway back without any breaks I will still execute all these moves just connect them smoothly because I can or because I am able to. It does by no means make all that one move. All I have done is changed/smoothened out the transitions.

So I essentially did see what you were after, I just disagree ;)

ChrisA

12th-January-2005, 04:15 PM

In strict term, no, you aren't freestyling when you start using you 'micro routines' because you are performing routines even if they are only tiny. Of course it is generally accepted to do mini routines (micro routines) in freestyle events but, again strictly speaking, it is actually not freestyle. To put that simple, one or two moves of this mini routine could fit perfect to the music but the other one or two or three don't. So you are actually 'not doing the best you can' to interpret the music. ;)

Wow. You set the bar pretty high. Even micro-routines aren't freestyle now :tears: . Care to define mini- and micro- for the rest of us mortals?

I know how hard it is for me to dance as musically as I can, and I'm not as good as I'd like to be, by a massive margin.

So if you practise what you preach, where can I come and watch you dance?

Chris

Gadget

12th-January-2005, 04:25 PM

...
Two things:
1) When does a set of movements become a move? When does a set of moves become a routine?

2) "Musical Interpritation" does not derive from moves - it's from the timing and style points used within the moves: Therefore the repetition of moves should not matter, as long as they are done with the music rather than to the music.

Andreas

12th-January-2005, 04:31 PM

Counterpoint: I have seen two 'pairs' of routines by world exhibition champions. ... lotsa text ...

I haven't seen them and am sure they were fabulous. However, I am also pretty sure they could have done better had they choreographed for both pieces individually.

In Ballroom and Latin I have been through the same school. You learn a routine that fits the music .. literally all (?) music of that kind. Yet, it is only a PERFECT fit for the music you use to develop the routine, if at all.

Not sure I'd agree - most music is actually pretty predictable. If you choreograph in sets of 8 counts, it might actually look more musical than many people's attempts to dance to the music. And if the music is particularly uninspiring, you may be better off "throwing in the moves" than trying to find some non-existent accents...

Correct but limiting. Does musicality only express itself in the structure of music or also in the lyrics and theme? The more factors you include into musicality the less your argument draws.

Going by your example, building your 'routines' in 8 beat segments. And now there is a pause in this other piece of music. You start again after four beats and from then on are one bar off? ;) There is no simple solution, luckily :D

In terms of "repetition", here's an interesting question? If a couple followed the WCS approach - mainly basic moves, lots of emphasis on musicality, how would you mark them? Given that they might repeat each of those basics 10 or more times during the dance. [From your posts, I'm sure you'd mark them highly. But I'm not sure how they 'should' be marked under MJ standards. The current criteria do generally include difficulty and complexity of moves, after all...]

Dave

Unfortunately (I mean it), in Ceroc technical difficulty is rated much higher than musicality in comps. In WCS that is different, as you can actually win a comp with relatively simple moves just by sterling execution and interpretation. I haven't seen an MJ contest where this was possible, yet. Having said that, I haven't been to any comps here in the UK so far.

:cheers:

RobC

12th-January-2005, 04:38 PM

Two things:
1) When does a set of movements become a move? When does a set of moves become a routine?
That was my original question that Andreas appears to be side-stepping :wink:

2) "Musical Interpritation" does not derive from moves - it's from the timing and style points used within the moves: Therefore the repetition of moves should not matter, as long as they are done with the music rather than to the music.
:yeah:

Andreas

12th-January-2005, 04:39 PM

Wow. You set the bar pretty high. Even micro-routines aren't freestyle now :tears: . Care to define mini- and micro- for the rest of us mortals?

I know how hard it is for me to dance as musically as I can, and I'm not as good as I'd like to be, by a massive margin.

So if you practise what you preach, where can I come and watch you dance?

Chris

:wink:

mini routines in my (?) terms are 4-5 moves. Actually, I wasn't the one who named them as such. Last year's national champ in NZ advanced freestyle did. :rofl:

LOL

I am not sure if coming to watch me is worth the effort but yes, I do not have any routines, I throw in what feels right with the music. But I'll be at the next Hipsters again.

Nobody should ever be as good as they can. If you have reached that point you should look at doing something else. I love dance because I love music and because no matter how much I improve, there is always something to learn. I can never reach my limit with it because there is more to learn and improve.

:yeah:

ChrisA

12th-January-2005, 04:59 PM

In WCS that is different, as you can actually win a comp with relatively simple moves just by sterling execution and interpretation. I haven't seen an MJ contest where this was possible, yet.

I'd agree that this isn't possible yet, in the UK, with the possible exception of the Blackpool Intermediates last year.

Which brings me on to your comment that:

I haven't been to any comps here in the UK so far.

Which does shock me a little, given that you've been pretty sweeping with what seems to me to be criticism of couples that do well in competitions - I read your comment as referring to UK comps, since this is a predominantly (albeit far from exclusively, I'm glad to say) UK forum.

For example:

ALL competitions that I have seen so far had been dominated (in terms of numbers) by people that were dancing mini routines and not freestyle in the freestyle events. Mini routines refers to groups of four or five moves that are being connected in varying order. This is rehersed. The moves in those are practiced.
...which was what I reacted to in the first place.

IMHO, and having been to all the comps in the UK last year except the Scottish one, the people who did well in the freestyle categories most certainly did dance freestyle, and pretty musically too for the most part. The flash moves were obviously practised, but if by 'moves' you mean the sort taught as such in classes, then there was very little in the way of mini-routines, if a mini-routine is four or five of those.

Perhaps you should go to the comps this year and give yourself the chance to revise your view :flower:

Interestingly, on this note, a friend of mine has recently returned from Australia, havaing spent some months there. She's a good dancer, musical, expressive, and she commented that the Ceroc she experienced in Oz was disappointing.

Her reason? Her perception was that they dance constantly as if they're competing, and that there's no such thing as social dancing.

Now before all our Aussie friends jump in and flame me to a crisp, I do realise that her experience is not necessarily representative, though I've heard similar views on the "slam-dunk" nature of Aussie male dancers. And I do know that there are some very musical Aussies, having seen Robert and Nicky, and more recently Adrian and Louise.

But it's an interesting perspective, I think, even so, in the context of this business of mini-routines.

Chris

David Franklin

12th-January-2005, 05:01 PM

I haven't seen them and am sure they were fabulous. However, I am also pretty sure they could have done better had they choreographed for both pieces individuallyWell, no-one is ever perfect, so there's always room for improvement. However it does show that you can 'adapt' the same routine to fit 2 pieces of music - to a much higher standard than you might think.

Does musicality only express itself in the structure of music or also in the lyrics and theme? The more factors you include into musicality the less your argument draws.My argument would be "if it's good enough for the world champions, it's good enough for me!". Well, no, actually, I wouldn't go that far :wink: . What I am saying is you shouldn't condemn an approach just because it doesn't reach what is perhaps an unattainable ideal of musicality. If a world championship pair, with far more time to choreograph, decide "working out something new is too much work - we can adapt the old routine and it will be good enough", then I'm prepared to cut freestyle competitors a little slack as well...

Going by your example, building your 'routines' in 8 beat segments. And now there is a pause in this other piece of music. You start again after four beats and from then on are one bar off? ;) There is no simple solution, luckily :DWell, I never said it was simple, did I? But there's an awful lot of tracks where you get sections that really are just 8-counts repeating, and you could use such an approach.

By the way, and for what it's worth - I can't say that I've ever consciously done the mini-routine thing, other than for entries and exits for lifts (where I would say it's not only understandable, but actually sensible). In fact, I can't even imagine preplanning to that extent. And yet, I know I tend to follow move X with move Y... [OK, yeah you said it - lazy :tears: ].

Unfortunately (I mean it), in Ceroc technical difficulty is rated much higher than musicality in comps. In WCS that is different, as you can actually win a comp with relatively simple moves just by sterling execution and interpretation. I haven't seen an MJ contest where this was possible, yet. Having said that, I haven't been to any comps here in the UK so far.I'm not sure where I stand. I love the WCS musicality, but a lot of the winning freestyle clips I see tend a bit towards "do a move, anchor, do some isolations, repeat..." for my taste. Maybe my taste is for too much "flash and trash" instead, but hey, it's my taste, and I'm gonna stick up for it...

Dave

Andreas

12th-January-2005, 05:14 PM

That was my original question that Andreas appears to be side-stepping :wink:

:yeah:

oi cheeky ;)

We never spoke about 'movement' we spoke about moves vs. routines.

What you call movement is either a move if you can put a name to it, i.e. bodywave. On second thought, you can always put a name to it ... slide ... points ... shines.

The current Ceroc database apparently comprises of more than 800 moves. Combining those smoothly does not make it one huge 77-minute move.

I disagree with the idea of combining 'simple moves' in variation to 'one move'. To me it is just like giving a slight variation of a known move a new name instead of calling it a variation.

All advanced dancers should be able to combine moves fluently without having a distinct break in there preparing for the next move and I think you agree.

:flower:

Andreas

12th-January-2005, 05:31 PM

Which does shock me a little, given that you've been pretty sweeping with what seems to me to be criticism of couples that do well in competitions - I read your comment as referring to UK comps, since this is a predominantly (albeit far from exclusively, I'm glad to say) UK forum.

Sorry, I only arrived in the UK four months ago. I hope that excuses it ;)

Interestingly, on this note, a friend of mine has recently returned from Australia, havaing spent some months there. She's a good dancer, musical, expressive, and she commented that the Ceroc she experienced in Oz was disappointing.

Her reason? Her perception was that they dance constantly as if they're competing, and that there's no such thing as social dancing.

I totally agree with both, her perception and her reasoning. It is luckily more social in NZ but there too was a strong tendency to 'competitive social dancing'.

Andreas

12th-January-2005, 05:39 PM

In fact, I can't even imagine preplanning to that extent. And yet, I know I tend to follow move X with move Y... [OK, yeah you said it - lazy :tears: ].

same here :blush: I think all of us are guilty of having moves that follow others but this is two moves rather than 4 or 5.

I'm not sure where I stand. I love the WCS musicality, but a lot of the winning freestyle clips I see tend a bit towards "do a move, anchor, do some isolations, repeat..." for my taste. Maybe my taste is for too much "flash and trash" instead, but hey, it's my taste, and I'm gonna stick up for it...

I personally don't watch WCS for moves but for the dynamics and I love those.

Bill

12th-January-2005, 05:57 PM

same here :blush: I think all of us are guilty of having moves that follow others but this is two moves rather than 4 or 5.

Not sure about this. A number of female dancers have commented on the fact that many men have 'mini' routines and are probably completely unaware of them. Far from being disappointed most say it's good because they can then relax a little as they know more or less what's coming.

I'm not sure what mine are but I am sure I must have a few.

In competition I've seen some very obvious mini routines - recognisable because they ignore the beat completely. perhaps the difference between very good dancers and good dancers is that the best can alter the moves or the timing to fit the music even if it is a routine and a few people have mentioned to me recently that a number of very good dancers are now clearly putting routines together for comps and if I was in any doubt I should look at some recent comps and see for myself !

It would be somewhat ironic if Ceroc or judges at other comps valued interpretation and musicality less than any other aspect given that many threads here have debated these and especially the lack of them and too much emphasis on aerials and 'big' moves to win comps.

David Franklin

12th-January-2005, 06:06 PM

It would be somewhat ironic if Ceroc or judges at other comps valued interpretation and musicality less than any other aspect given that many threads here have debated these and especially the lack of them and too much emphasis on aerials and 'big' moves to win comps. :confused: Why would it be ironic - wouldn't it simply prove the point?

Dave

RobC

12th-January-2005, 06:15 PM

oi cheeky ;)

We never spoke about 'movement' we spoke about moves vs. routines.

snip ..... I was asking at what point a particular arrangement of movements, based on parts of what most people would recognise as basic moves, intertwined and linked in such a way as there is no 'end point' and trying to perform each component in isolation makes no sense or is just straight impossible, when do you consider that one long move ?
:confused:

What you call movement is either a move if you can put a name to it, i.e. bodywave. On second thought, you can always put a name to it ... slide ... points ... shines.

So is a First move a routine then ? ;)

The current Ceroc database apparently comprises of more than 800 moves. Combining those smoothly does not make it one huge 77-minute move.
True, I doubt that even the most stylish dancers out there, such as Viktor, could manage to string them together with suitable 'styling points' such that you couldn't spot an 'end point' to classify the start of a new move.

I disagree with the idea of combining 'simple moves' in variation to 'one move'. To me it is just like giving a slight variation of a known move a new name instead of calling it a variation.
Again, it comes down to how you define a move. To some extent, I agree with you if you are talking about stringing whole moves together. But what about parts of moves ? For example, the First Move and the First Move Push Spin - are they two seperate moves or a variation on a single move ?

All advanced dancers should be able to combine moves fluently without having a distinct break in there preparing for the next move and I think you agree.

:flower: :yeah: That's what I'm trying to teach people in my Advanced classes down at Godalming :waycool:

filthycute

12th-January-2005, 09:40 PM

Indeed indeed, never a truer word said. Did you see him, did you get a good look at his face, could you pick him ooot in a crowd? I don't think so.

Um....yeah actually.....your not as smart as you think........ :whistle:

You start at A and i'll meet you at Blackpool somwhere betwixt there and Z

See you there......i know where to look. ;)

fc x x

Gadget

13th-January-2005, 01:54 AM

What you call movement is either a move if you can put a name to it, i.e. bodywave. On second thought, you can always put a name to it ... slide ... points ... shines.
? I think I dissagree with you here:
Your hands move from one point in 3D space to another point (in relation to your body) during the course of a lead - these points normally are passed through on the beat of the track. There are about twelve of these points {shoulders, hips, extended arms.. I can list them}. Moving between them forms a movement segment - several of them are used in making up a "named move". In Ceroc, this normally starts and stops as the hands pass through the 'zero' point directly infront of you and your partner. Body orientation and the location of your partner at that time is almost irrelevant.
{I think that if you joined all the moves in the 'bible' without passing this "zero point", it would look like a single move}
However, although Ceroc may be at the forefront of teching MJ, it is bound and advised by the 'bible' and it's definition of 'moves'.

Ceroc drones (and most other MJ franchises) have been conditioned that movement 1 to 2 to 3 to 2 to 4 to 1* is a first move, and if you go 1,2,3 then 2,4,1 must follow. For most breaking this mould, the 1 at either end is replaced by the start or end of the next move. For others, it is halved and 1,2,3 can lead to 7,8,9 or 7,8,9 can end with 2,4,1. These are commonly seen as variations.
For a few individuals, they are just positions and any one can lead to any other without having to follow the prescribed pattern. However, the follower has to actually follow and not just think [/i]"ah, this is the first move...here, here, here, here, here..."[/i] then wait for the lead to tell them what to do next.

I disagree with the idea of combining 'simple moves' in variation to 'one move'. To me it is just like giving a slight variation of a known move a new name instead of calling it a variation.
So...Example a first move start, then step-through rotating to face taking both hands, then steping to her right in the reverse position. (What move is that? {this is all made it up on the spot while listening to the radio BTW}) Take the move further and take the right hand to left hip and release while leading the lady behind you to catch in a 'cattapult' style hold. (Is this two moves, more, or just one?) Lead her to the right by putting right arm out and left arm in half-nelson, release it and offer above right shoulder while drawing under (is this the same move, or an amalgamation of several? is it a 'micro-routine'?) As the lady turns under to be infront of you, keep hands high, together and rotate away from lady timed so both face same way at same time - lady behind the man, place both hands on same shoulders (just an alternative to a 'proper' ending, or a preperation?) Continue turning, taking right hand over head and ladie's head while left keeps low to lady's left hip while right drops over to lady's right hip - now in straight-jacket infront of you (am I still in the same move?) Release both hands and guide arms up, move right lead back to the left hip and walk under left hand to wrap self in close with feet between each other's feet, use lead on back with knee connection for slow sweep,...
I could continue like this for a whole song {and with the right follower have done :waycool:}. There are no 'whole' moves within that peice, there are no 'normal' places where you could say "...return and step back" or even "...and step back" Does that make it one move? A 'first move variation'?
This is not "combining moves"; this is joining movements. This is the ultimate aim of MJ teachings {IMHO} - there are no moves, just movements. The names of moves are only a language to help communicate ideas; they represent a group of movements.

Gus

13th-January-2005, 04:06 AM

I dont think I've ever seen a thread move so far off thread or disappear up its own orrifice with such anal-retentive codswallop! WHO CARES whether its one move or several??? Dont you think we are in danger of over-analysing things?

Lets keep it real guys ...... the central debate seemed to be around the fact that 'A' lists were;

variable from person to person
sometimes a marketing thing
sometimes irrelevant as content was more important
and sometimes seen as elitest

Any more contributions?

OK .. one specific question. Take a sample 'A list' ... Amir, N&N, Viktor. Given that there about 135 Ceroc, 10 Blitz, 25 LeRoc (total guess) and 10 MoJive instructors, of these 180 'normal' teachers, how many do you think are comparable to the A list instructors? :rolleyes:

MartinHarper

13th-January-2005, 10:25 AM

Also, teachers on "A-lists" tend to have more people turn up to their classes (eg at weekenders). Folks who learn best in smaller groups might do well to avoid them, for that reason.

RobC

13th-January-2005, 02:03 PM

I'll try and stay on track this time ;)

[list]
sometimes a marketing thing
I can't think of any times when this has not been a marketing thing :confused:

sometimes irrelevant as content was more important
Always irrelevant unless you are the promoter, or weak-minded enough to fall for marketing gimmicks

and sometimes seen as elitest
:yeah: but the only people who seem to care are those teachers left off 'the list' that feel they ought to be there - most couldn't care one way or the other.

OK .. one specific question. Take a sample 'A list' ... Amir, N&N, Viktor. Given that there about 135 Ceroc, 10 Blitz, 25 LeRoc (total guess) and 10 MoJive instructors, of these 180 'normal' teachers, how many do you think are comparable to the A list instructors? :rolleyes:
Depends entirely what criteria you are using to do the comparison ? If you are looking for a fun, funky teacher to grab peoples interest for a strolls class, I can name several (Adam and Tas would probably be near the top of my list :worthy: ) and none of your 3 would appear anywhere near my top 5.

Every teacher has their strengths and specialties and any worth their salt will admit their weaknesses too. Given the broad spectrum of styles covered in MJ, even taking personal preferences into account, you are never going to be able to create a single 'A-list' or league table or whatever. And that goes for competitors in Jive competitions as well.

Leo

14th-February-2005, 07:54 PM

Um....yeah actually.....your not as smart as you think........ :whistle:

See you there......i know where to look. ;)

fc x x

Hey Hey Hey :waycool: I canny wait

Zebra Woman

13th-March-2005, 04:30 PM

Benito ???

e quello voi?

Ciao baby :cheers:

Alison x

Daniel Sandars

19th-March-2005, 11:07 PM

Having said that, I have known workshop/freestyle packages to be as little as £25 - the delightful Bluesdance days at Ampthill.

Thanks for that Jivecat...We are dancers doing for ourselves...It would be a struggle for commercial dance promoters to offer that format if their bank accounts depended on it, especially if they had swiss ones!!

Hopefully after our materaty leave we will be able to come up with another delightful day in md-Bedfordshire in the company of noteworth Blues teachers and DJs

Andreas

19th-March-2005, 11:37 PM

Depends entirely what criteria you are using to do the comparison ? If you are looking for a fun, funky teacher to grab peoples interest for a strolls class, I can name several (Adam and Tas would probably be near the top of my list :worthy: ) and none of your 3 would appear anywhere near my top 5.

:yeah: not that I know the two you used as examples but it totally agree with the gist of that and what you said before.

Every teacher has their strengths and specialties and any worth their salt will admit their weaknesses too.

Sadly the majority of people who are hailed and 'a-listed' have not the strength to fight their own egos and admit to weaknesses. That, in my opinion, is eventually their 'undoing' because their own progress slows down (to a grinding halt?) as they get in a routine of being acknowledged and praised. Seen it a hundred times.

Given the broad spectrum of styles covered in MJ, even taking personal preferences into account, you are never going to be able to create a single 'A-list' or league table or whatever. And that goes for competitors in Jive competitions as well. :yeah: As I mentioned in one of my first posts in this thread, none of them makes it into my 'A list'. This is not necessarily because they are not good enough for a listing, simply they do not have what I regard as important enough to list them. :cheers: