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Gordon J Pownall
2nd-August-2004, 10:24 AM
OK, so you go weekly (or more) to a Ceroc (et al) class and the teacher demos the intermediate class (or not) and then procedes teaching...

The next move is called "the ladies half nelson crab duck octopull comb dip"

Do the names of moves mean anything to you....?
Do you take any notice of the name...?
Do they actually describe the move at all...?
Does naming moves cause confusion (for those doing classes)...?

Whaddya reckon.... :confused: :confused: :confused:


(You can choose more than one option on the poll)

Pammy
2nd-August-2004, 10:37 AM
I normally forget the real names, but end up making up my own. There was PaulF's "lock of death" - don't know what the real name is but that was one we made up.

Tony and I had a few names for some we did as well. Don't know many "real" names of moves though....

HeatherX
2nd-August-2004, 10:38 AM
I like to know the names of moves, and find it frustrating when the teacher doesn't repeat them or even use them....the teacher will say something like 'this starts like a first move and then this happens and then this and then this and then this' and when calling out the sequence of moves towards the end of the class says no more than 'first move' and maybe 'return' or 'guys, step to the side'.

I know some moves may end up sounding like the German for windscreen wiper with about seven component names, so I would welcome a shorthand.

I think some of the problem is that moves are devised by v. creative people who see moves arising naturally out of the way bodies work together. I see expert dancers every week who just go with their own artistic flow, looking fantastic, but doing not very much that looks like ceroc. Teaching is a different skill. Some people (me included) learn best by having a name acting as a peg to hang my learning on.

spindr
2nd-August-2004, 10:43 AM
This is what I wrote in another place (http://www.afterfive.co.uk).

Neil.

----------

Some classes provide lists of moves, which can sometimes give the impression that these moves are "official" and therefore "better" than others. These lists typically have three categories of move names:
names like "Flingy Flung" are charming, but don't convey a lot of information.
some moves have more structured names, but can be awkward, e.g. "I'm going to lead a first move sway interruption lariat spin return".
multiple moves (double, or triple, etc.) - usually repeating the same move.

In contrast, the most popular move name with teachers appears to be "It's a sort of twisty, spinning, twirly move". When I started dancing Modern Jive, there was a sort of "arms race" between classes, with each class attempting to "out list" each other's moves.

Lists of moves are fun, but can sometimes encourage the use of Modern Jive "jargon" which can be a bit of a barrier for beginners, and a "Gotta' dance 'em all" collecting attitude. Collecting moves and names can be fun, but don't let that constrain your creativity - a move doesn't have to have a name for it to be led and followed well - only well known moves have well known names, otherwise they are usually specific to a particular instructor, or class. I've discovered several moves that I thought were original (since I had "found" them, without seeing them before) subsequently being taught in "real" classes.

-----------

This is part of "Modern Jive - A Dancer's Guide. Copyright Neil Matthews. The latest version of this guide is available at http://www.afterfive.co.uk/ (http://www.afterfive.co.uk) in formats including: XHTML, PDF, RTF, LaTeX and XML. Please contact moves@afterfive.co.uk for further information.

philsmove
2nd-August-2004, 10:45 AM
Learning MJ is just like sailing

You need the differance beween your LUFF, LEACH, FOOT, HEAD, TACK, CLEW and ROACH

but the only thing I need to know about the tunnel is it’s a ‘orrible move not to attempted under any circumstances

And Philsmove??? I have to honest I can never remember how do it

what’s the alternative

We all know the first move

Should keep it simple and just have a second, third, and fourth move

Lou
2nd-August-2004, 10:46 AM
Do the names of moves mean anything to you....?

Do you take any notice of the name...?

Do they actually describe the move at all...?

Does naming moves cause confusion (for those doing classes)...?

Here in Lerocland, a number of the organisations actually write the names of the moves & stick them on the walls to help the class remember when running through the routines. Some also give out handouts with the names on as an aide-memoire. Lots of people find them useful. :grin:

If I saw something like "the ladies half nelson crab duck octopull comb dip" I'd know to find myself a fixed partner & disappear to the back of the room or, indeed run screaming as far away as possible. :whistle:

Of course, we have some different names for moves, like
Arm Jive = Push Pull (at Elmgrove)
Octopus = Loophole (except the man goes through the loop first in a Loophole)
Archiespin = Arch
Spinger = Nigel's Move (not sure exactly which Nigel it is....)
Hallelujah = Overhead Change
and when I saw the post about a Shoulder Drop, I thought Stewart38 was refering to a totally different move until I saw the description!

Lou
2nd-August-2004, 10:49 AM
We all know the first move

Should keep it simple and just have a second, third, and fourth move
hehe! But what happens when you teach a routine with all those moves in, but in a different order? "Let's start at the First Move, which was the 2nd Move, followed by the 3rd Move, which was the 1st Move......" :what: :wink:

eastmanjohn
2nd-August-2004, 10:58 AM
Octopus = Loophole (except the man goes through the loop first in a Loophole)



This one always gets me. Surely it matters where in the flow of moves these two variations fit? If I dance a loophole (or octopus if you like) then it depends on where I finished the last move as to whether I (the man) or my partner goes through the loop first.

Examples:
1)If I have just done First move and return then I will go through the loop first (Loophole in the above description).

2)If I've just done a basket but have decided not to do a return, then I will lead my partner to go first (i.e the Octopus).

Leading the return and then putting my partner through the loop (Octopus) would be like doing a return, allowing the step back, and then doing another return. Feels awful.

Spindr, what is your take on this?

TheTramp
2nd-August-2004, 11:36 AM
Have to admit, I don't bother with names of moves - except for the beginner ones. But then, I don't have a big book with lists of all the moves (by name) and descriptions of how to do them.

Hence, when I teach intermediate (or advanced) classes, most of the names become variations of whichever beginner moves they are.

Couple of weeks ago, I taught a routine that was a first move variation, a yo-yo variation, a figure of eight, and a catapult variation.

(Of course, I have no idea how it went now :D)

Trampy

spindr
2nd-August-2004, 11:37 AM
Leading the return and then putting my partner through the loop (Octopus) would be like doing a return, allowing the step back, and then doing another return. Feels awful.

Spindr, what is your take on this?

Hmmm, well of course "The Octopus" is the "proper" name for the broken basket :) 'cause you need about 8 arms to lead it -- also the nickname for several dancers :devil:

Loophole is also called a man/lady breakthru.

I think a return into a lady loophole could work -- you'd have to keep tension to prevent the lady stepping back after the return and effectively roll the two moves together -- the snag is the two consecutive anticlockwise movements.
If the leader lets the lady step backwards (on her left foot) then she'd have to readjust weight back onto right foot and then step forwards onto left to do a clockwise turn.

Much easier just to replace the return with the lady loophole -- basically the loophole's just a travelling return anyway.

As for lady/man versus man/lady -- mix and match to your heart's content -- I like to lead several consecutive lady loopholes and then finish (as a sort of minibreak) with a man loophole.

Have fun,
SpinDr.

Lou
2nd-August-2004, 11:43 AM
Leading the return and then putting my partner through the loop (Octopus) would be like doing a return, allowing the step back, and then doing another return. Feels awful.
Yup - when I first learnt to lead the Octopus (following a return) it just felt bizarre - exactly as you've described, John. I just assumed it was because of many years of man through first, etc.... But you're right - it's because it followed that return. Cheers! :grin:

Trish
2nd-August-2004, 11:48 AM
The next move is called "the ladies half nelson crab duck octopull comb dip"


Does this really exist? It's a bit of a mouthful! What does it look like?!

Sheepman
2nd-August-2004, 01:01 PM
Should keep it simple and just have a second, third, and fourth move I spoke to someone recently who talked about classes where they were taught moves just by numbers (I think they were talking about salsa). Once they had mastered all the moves, the instructor would just call out numbers for each move and it all worked smoothly.
My argument against this, was that this might work for a dozen or fifteen moves, but last time I looked at a list I compiled (a long time ago), there were over 700 moves and variations. I certainly can't remember more than about 60, no way can I recall many names, and numbers would be even more meaningless.

I think names can be useful when you're starting out, and for the teachers in class, especially where many moves have a root from a familiar move, everyone knows what's meant when you say "it starts like a first move." However, I do think it is important not to get hung up on names, if it is leadable, then that is where you have the communication with your partner.

When it is not leadable, or where very similar leads result in different moves, then you are going to need a name, signal, or a sequence that leads to that move. The fact that it is not leadable implies you are doing it with a partner you have practiced it with, so you can make up your own name for it. Ideally a short one if it is to be understood in the heat of the moment.

So if anyone hears me shouting out "crap!" while I'm dancing, it's not a comment on my partner's dancing, it's the shortest, most appropriate name we came up with for that move!!

Greg

Bigger Andy
2nd-August-2004, 01:08 PM
Do the names of moves mean anything to you....?

Do you take any notice of the name...?

Do they actually describe the move at all...?

Does naming moves cause confusion (for those doing classes)...?

Whaddya reckon.... :confused: :confused: :confused:

I reckon the names are important - assuming they are descriptive of the move.

I find that while I can remember the moves taught in the class during the freestyle afterwards, I am likely to have forgotten some or all of them by the following week !

Consequently, I write down what we have been taught so that I can look back at it later to remind myself. If the moves are named it helps.

Gordon J Pownall
2nd-August-2004, 01:14 PM
Does this really exist? It's a bit of a mouthful! What does it look like?!

I can assure you that this move DOES NOT exist and is merely a figment of my imagination however there are moves (listed in the Ceroc bible which I rarely if at all refer to nowadays), that have the ability to instill a similar feel / description to that above..... :eek:
All gets a bit crazy after a while and I know many Ceroc teachers who just don't use move names at all for intermediates. Some teachers do put the names of moves up on the wall. :clap:
I have done this for beginners and found it quite useful to do this weeks moves .....last weeks moves etc...buit only for beginners
I do agree though for beginners, it's useful to have names so that they can hang their dancing on to when starting out.... :yeah:
I only tend to focus on move names when teaching / dancing when it is a move that is either not that easy to lead (some footwork for example) where the leader can say - Do you know the first move cross step slide...???
At least that way it gives the follower a fighting chance....... :what:

Another question.... :confused:

When competing, particularly at aerials / open level, do danceers i.e. you lot...talk to your partner and say what's coming up next...???
A sort of verbal lead for the next few moves or do people tend to focus on the physical lead and / or hand signals (or any other bit of the anatomy for that matter.....??? :sick:

jiveoholic
2nd-August-2004, 01:49 PM
Do you use a hoover or a vacuum cleaner? Do you take asprin or acetylsalicylic acid? What we need is a generic naming convention limited to words that are generally accepted or communicate what they mean (not the flingy-flung!). I have no problem with "Basket unwrap flick-spin catapult".

Trish
2nd-August-2004, 02:07 PM
I can assure you that this move DOES NOT exist and is merely a figment of my imagination however there are moves (listed in the Ceroc bible which I rarely if at all refer to nowadays), that have the ability to instill a similar feel / description to that above..... :eek:


I hoped it didn't! I tried to go through the list in my head and picture it, and as I couldn't I presumed it was just an example of the daftness of names being strung together. I agree that it's useful for beginners to have names, so they can go to the Taxis/teachers and say "I wasn't sure about that catapult", our venue always has the beginners moves on the wall - also useful for forgetful taxi dancers! I also agree, that moves that often lead on to something else (like most of the Ceroc beginners moves) are better named, but I can't say the really long names are useful to me as I always forget them! Having said that I seem to remember more names than most people I know. Doesn't help when you learn something in one venue as one name and then another time as something else either!

Yliander
2nd-August-2004, 02:15 PM
When competing, particularly at aerials / open level, do danceers i.e. you lot...talk to your partner and say what's coming up next...???

A sort of verbal lead for the next few moves or do people tend to focus on the physical lead and / or hand signals

i have a regular dance partner and we don't tend to use a lot of verbal leads for aerials as we have developed unique (well unique here at least) move combinations into the various aerials we do. The exception to this is the variations - ie an arabesque - if my partner wants to do a spinning one he will say "spin" while doing the entry - so that I know that he is going to lift and spin me rather than lift and dip me.

However whenever teaching a bigger move to someone always teach them to give a verbal lead - so that the girl has an option and plenty of notice

Gordon J Pownall
2nd-August-2004, 02:17 PM
However whenever teaching a bigger move to someone always teach them to give a verbal lead - so that the girl has an option and plenty of notice

Always do........ :cheers:

Yliander
2nd-August-2004, 02:20 PM
Always do........ :cheers:

so very good to hear :flower: can you come dance with me .....

MartinHarper
2nd-August-2004, 03:02 PM
As to confusion, I've already found out that a man's spin in ceroc is the same as a man's pass in jazz jive - and I've not yet seen a ceroc equivalent for jazz jive's man's spin (though it seems leadable).

Gordon J Pownall
2nd-August-2004, 04:48 PM
so very good to hear :flower: can you come dance with me .....

I would love to and on an thread somewhere, you will see that accommodation is ready and raring to go - the thread listed people in Oz and the UK who could accommodate visitors from other places....

You're more than welcome when Sally and I come to Oz for our teaching tour with Nicky H...

Just don't know when yet... :sick:

The Pilgrim
3rd-August-2004, 10:00 PM
Giving ‘intermediate’ moves which are simply variations of a beginner move complex names, invariably read by the teacher from a pre prepared note because they can’t remember them, is asinine.


----------------
"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

alex
4th-August-2004, 01:38 AM
Pilgrim

I'd be interested to know where you teach, as you believe you have more knowledge, better teaching skills, and a better memory than all the teachers you comment on.

alex

under par
4th-August-2004, 01:59 AM
Pilgrim

I'd be interested to know where you teach, as you believe you have more knowledge, better teaching skills, and a better memory than all the teachers you comment on.

alex


yeah let us hear a bit more about the pilgrims credentials!!!

Gordon J Pownall
4th-August-2004, 02:21 PM
Giving ‘intermediate’ moves which are simply variations of a beginner move complex names, invariably read by the teacher from a pre prepared note because they can’t remember them, is asinine.

Errr........asinine.....???

I often will write down the names of the intermediate class that I intend to teach and have it up on stage with me on the floor of the stage as a reminder. :confused: How does this affect you as a dancer...??? Is the bit of paper, hidden out of sight off putting...??? :confused:

Does it distract you from looking at the teacher / your partner...??? :confused:

I teach usually four nights / week and avoid teaching the same routine every night as many dancers come to more than one of my venues.....

I am curious as to why you think that a teacher making sure he or she is prepared, confident in what he / she is about to teach and takes a precaution to ensure the best possible delivery is asinine...??? :mad:

Surely having an aide memiore is better that forgetting the name / beats of a move / routine...???

No different that when learning a choreographed routine - having a guide available is a safety precaution - that's all and many renowned teachers :worthy: have the moves written down and prepared.

And...considering I tend to teach straight after work and with three different demonstrators at 3 or four different venues, I see it is as a useful way of ensuring both I and my demonstrator deliver a quality product. :yeah:

Of course at Sainsbury's, Tescos, B&Q etc, the girls / blokes on the tills don't have a list of products / items which they refer to do they... No... they remember every single item in the store....NOT

Not a good post - have to give you negative rep for this one mate...

I'm still curious about your background as it appears that you are avoiding in this and other threads, giving us forumites an isight into your background and experience... or are you just stirring the pot without being willing to stand by your own convictions / observations / comments

It might give us humble readers of your knowledgeable posts a foundation upon which to base our perspective - for all we know, you could be James Cronin and therefore well qualified to make some of the comments you have.....

Then again......

On a final note, I do welcome your observations - even more so I welcome your criticisms as they, in particular, reveal so much about you to me...... :wink:

jiveoholic
4th-August-2004, 08:16 PM
You might be interested in a "jiveoholics dictionary", the link found at the bottom of the main page at http://www.jiveoholic.org.uk. The idea is to present only those terms that are generally agreed. Any mistakes or missing terms gratefully received.

Andy McGregor
4th-August-2004, 10:56 PM
On a final note, I do welcome your observations - even more so I welcome your criticisms as they, in particular, reveal so much about you to me...... :wink:

And that comment reveals to me that Gordy is annoyed, and he's trying to get even in a subtle way. Don't be subtle, go round his house and break his train-set :devil:

And, on a final note, Gordy's comment reveals so much more about Gordy. But does this comment reveal anything new about me - I think not: you already knew it all :whistle:

The Pilgrim
4th-August-2004, 11:42 PM
Thank you Gordon, for the explanation, but do RELAX. :waycool:

In my saying –

Giving ‘intermediate’ moves which are simply variations of a beginner move complex names, invariably read by the teacher from a pre prepared note because they can’t remember them, is asinine.

this was NOT a personal swipe at you - although from your post you recognised your own personal behaviour within the statement.

Watch other good teachers, a few are mentioned in my previous post (and I shall be pleased to advise of others) none of them feel the need to give pseudo made up names to moves which no one then remembers.

(Although - and I know you like to joke about, names like – "the ladies half nelson crab duck octopull comb dip American”- can be a source of levity amongst the class at the time.)


----------------
"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

Gordon J Pownall
4th-August-2004, 11:44 PM
And that comment reveals to me that Gordy is annoyed, and he's trying to get even in a subtle way.

Actually Andy mate, gotta put you right here...

Not annoyed, just at a bit of a loss why an anonymous individual feels it appropriate to make value judgements without any justification.

The forum is a place where discussion and opinions are expressed and are done so by intelligent (?) people who will explain and justify the basis for such comments.

Just saying teachers who write own moves are asinine as an isolated comment is no different than the opinions held by Nazi germany, South Africa during apartheid etc.

"You're a lesser person because you are black or because your are a Jew..."

"Why....?"

"....Because you are....."

This comment I found totally inappropriate, unjustified and one that perhaps the forum could do without.

If The Pilgrim was a 'regular' forumite, known be reputation or by his / her sharing of a sense of humour or perspective, then that would be a different case and the comment may be taken in a different way.

Perhaps when you and I spar with the Gimp comments - however who is this Pilgrim, what basis does he / she have for making such comments......?

Sorry Andy, not annyed, just confused and seeking some resolution.

Pilgrim has also played a game on other threads with Rachel as well... It is for this post and others that I question then comment and The Pilgrims motivation...the signature also gives clues to motivation...

Is The Pilgrim just here to cause controversy and mayhem...???

Gordon J Pownall
4th-August-2004, 11:53 PM
In my saying –

Giving ‘intermediate’ moves which are simply variations of a beginner move complex names, invariably read by the teacher from a pre prepared note because they can’t remember them, is asinine.

this was NOT a personal swipe at you - although from your post you recognised your own personal behaviour within the statement.

IMHO This is a personal swipe at any teacher who makes notes... and done so without any reason, justification or, as long as you remain unwilling to state from which perspective you come from, any substance whatsoever - are you a teacher, have you ever taught a class, have you ever been in the situation of needing to feel confident and prepared...???



Watch other good teachers, a few are mentioned in my previous post (and I shall be pleased to advise of others) none of them feel the need to give pseudo made up names to moves which no one then remembers.

Nor do I.....when giving names of moves, I use those which can be found (where appropriate) from the Ceroc Moves Folder as issued to all qualified Ceroc teachers...???

Don't understand your comment here - if you are referring to a post earlier, you will also read that I gave this as a (stated as made up) example of where moves have been overnamed in some instances.,.....still confused...???

I notice, with interest, that you still hide behind your pseudonym.... still unwilling to share any details about yourself as requested by Rachel...???

under par
5th-August-2004, 07:07 AM
Pilgrim

I'd be interested to know where you teach, as you believe you have more knowledge, better teaching skills, and a better memory than all the teachers you comment on.

alex

Is the Pilgrim another BASIL BRUSH!!!! :whistle: :wink:

Lory
5th-August-2004, 09:36 AM
Swiftly back on topic..... :D

I know the names of and how to properly execute, precisely 4 moves, :waycool:
The first move
The hand jive
The comb and
The slow comb :clap:

After that, all I ever worry about is, if I hear the words..... Duck, Tunnel or Drop, at the end of anything, it's time for me to beat a hasty retreat! :cool: :rofl:

Gordon J Pownall
5th-August-2004, 11:02 AM
Hi All,

Sorry to go off thread - last time hopefully.

I had a PM which I feel I need to respond to with respect to the sender here on the thread, just to add a little perspective upon my comments earlier as the sender of the PM has made me aware of how my comment may have been taken out of context. Please accept my unreserved apolgies if anyone has taken offence at this comment and below is also the message to the PM sender.....

I would also add that this was an open and honest dialogue and not an angry exchange.....


I'm afraid that I find your comparison lacking in perspective and rather offensive - not to "The Pilgrim", about whom I care little, but to the millions of people dead as a result of Nazi actions. Godwin's law very much applies.

On reflection maybe a little strong however such uninformed beliefs held and expressed by individuals who have little consideration for the other person (such as The Pilgrim) are fundamentally what caused such atrocities.

In terms of being offensive, as a writer and researcher into the Holocaust, my mother has brought myself and brothers up with an in depth understanding and insight of the WW2 atrocities.

I made the comment (albeit perhaps tentatively linked) based upon that fact that The Pilgrim holds and has expressed views that are offensive to many people, that hold absolutely no substance, that are based upon discriminatory beliefs and that he cannot (and has refused to) justify other than him / her saying that 'individuals are asinine '...because he / she says so.

That is no different than saying people with dyslexia are asinine because they can't read or write, or people with a hearing impairment are asinine because they use a hearing aid or minicom.

I understand your perspective however still stand by the conviction that The Pilgrim is out to stir up trouble in making the comment he did and which I still find totally unjustified.

Thanks however for your thoughts and comments... :flower:

....and The Pilgrim still remains a pseudonym....... :whistle:

Andy McGregor
5th-August-2004, 11:23 AM
I think Gordy has done well in his recent post apologising for an earlier slightly OTT comparison. I thought some people might have been upset by this. And it seems I was right. I think that the person who was upset was right to email Gordy alerting him and I think Gordy was right to make his apology public as others may have been upset and not PM'd anyone about it. Gordy has apologised and I believe that apology is sincere. Let's hope that's an end to it. Well done Gordy :clap:

As I said some time ago, The Pilgrim is posting like an old hand. In fact, to use the usual pub comparison, like someone who's just stepped outside as if leaving then put on a disguise and come back in as someone else. We've seen people who wouldn't reveal their true selves before on here - so far I've not observed any of them to be a force for good.

spindr
5th-August-2004, 11:45 AM
Hmmm, I read...

Giving ‘intermediate’ moves which are simply variations of a beginner move complex names, invariably read by the teacher from a pre prepared note because they can’t remember them, is asinine.
as

Giving ‘intermediate’ moves which are simply variations of a beginner move complex names is asinine.
by removing the extra clause in the commas.

And I have some sypathy for the editted version -- names with no information are just jargon. For example: it would be somewhat foolish to call a standard first move with a double return, say ``Neil's move'' or ``The Aadvark'' or whatever [although, I believe that a first move with a travelling double return coming back into dancehold is sometimes taught as "A Double Dennis"].

In contrast, names with too much information are never going to be remembered.

I would prefer teachers tried to relate complex moves to their simpler versions -- e.g. a loophole is *just* a travelling return with an extra handhold that breaks and makes, etc.

As for the clause in commas:

invariably read by the teacher from a pre prepared note because they can’t remember them
it's a bit harsh. Although I so find that MY confidence in a teacher (or rather their professionalism) tends to drop somewhat if they have to keep referring to their notes A LOT during a class.

SpinDr.

Rentaghost
5th-August-2004, 12:25 PM
To be fair to Gordon, he only has the names of the moves written on a piece of paper with the beat counts written next to them. It is not as if he is reading them step by step or at least he doesn't appear to be... :whistle:

However, as a professional teacher, I often have notes with me when I am teaching. It keeps lessons running smoothly and was something that :eek: OFSTED quite liked when they inspected my school. :waycool:

Please can I have a dance tonight, Gordon? :flower:

Sarah

Gordon J Pownall
5th-August-2004, 01:16 PM
As for the clause in commas:

it's a bit harsh. Although I so find that MY confidence in a teacher (or rather their professionalism) tends to drop somewhat if they have to keep referring to their notes A LOT during a class.

SpinDr.

Couldn;'t agree with you more me old luv. :worthy: If the teacher is constantly referrring to bits of paper or notations then it would be totally off putting however as The Pilgrim has obviously been to at least one of my classes (from a previous post)...he / she knows that this is soooooooo not the case here..... :angry:


If I choose to use a written note at all its :-

...on a bit of paper...

Neckbreak.....................8
Dble Hand Sway.............8
Hallelujah......................3
Back to Back Spin...........10


Now...taking into account that :-

I teach about four nights a week - different routine each time
Usually arrive to teach straight from work with minutes to spare
Have three or four different demonstrators each week
Usually teach at least one or two workshops per month
Have at least one or two private lessons each week
Want to give the class names of moves accurately (as per Ceroc Bible)
Have a thousand other things going in my mind
Need to keep an eye on the class and ensure that they are having the night deserved

:sick: :sick: :sick:

What makes having this :-

Neckbreak.....................8
Dble Hand Sway.............8
Hallelujah......................3
Back to Back Spin...........10

on a bit of paper on the stage asinine.....???? :confused:

It's as useful to me WHEN I NEED IT as it is to the demonstrator as a quick reference, gained through a glance.....


As I said some time ago, The Pilgrim is posting like an old hand. In fact, to use the usual pub comparison, like someone who's just stepped outside as if leaving then put on a disguise and come back in as someone else. We've seen people who wouldn't reveal their true selves before on here - so far I've not observed any of them to be a force for good.

....I have to concur here Andy :worthy: ...quite right, particularly as all invitations to give a little bit of background etc have been totally ignored on at least three threads.....not a force for good at all......

Gordon J Pownall
5th-August-2004, 01:19 PM
To be fair to Gordon, he only has the names of the moves written on a piece of paper with the beat counts written next to them. Please can I have a dance tonight, Gordon? :flower:

Sarah

....and as Sarah demo'd for me last week - she speaks from the front line finger right on the pulse position.....


And of course I would love to dance with you this evening........ :flower: :hug: :hug:

Gordon J Pownall
5th-August-2004, 01:20 PM
I think Gordy has done well in his recent post apologising for an earlier slightly OTT comparison. I thought some people might have been upset by this. And it seems I was right. I think that the person who was upset was right to email Gordy alerting him and I think Gordy was right to make his apology public as others may have been upset and not PM'd anyone about it. Gordy has apologised and I believe that apology is sincere. Let's hope that's an end to it. Well done Gordy :clap:

As I said some time ago, The Pilgrim is posting like an old hand. In fact, to use the usual pub comparison, like someone who's just stepped outside as if leaving then put on a disguise and come back in as someone else. We've seen people who wouldn't reveal their true selves before on here - so far I've not observed any of them to be a force for good.

Gotta spread it around a bit so here's a hug instead :hug:

Gadget
5th-August-2004, 01:29 PM
I'm with Tramp on this one: I know the beginner move names - the rest is just a blur of variations and amalgamations. (although I still get the 'yo-yo' and 'catapult' names mixed up)

The intermediate routine I get from watching the stage, not by the name: A "wet teapot" to me is a good thing, although Lisa was saying it is a bad thing last night. :confused: {:wink:}

Personally; I think that teachers need the names because they have to record the lesson, may have to repeat the move exactly the same way again, have to stick to the routine more than twice without varying it, and need to be able to discuss the move referring to various distinct parts of it.
Beginners and new intermediates I think need them to give a sense of consistancy and to prove that they do actually know a few moves. It is also a usefull reminder for changing repertour or calling to your partner if you are about to do a variation.
But are they important to me: no. "twiddly bit, back-pass, smooth slide, catch" does me just fine. :waycool:

Gordon J Pownall
5th-August-2004, 01:37 PM
I'm with Tramp on this one: I know the beginner move names - the rest is just a blur of variations and amalgamations. (although I still get the 'yo-yo' and 'catapult' names mixed up)

The intermediate routine I get from watching the stage, not by the name: A "wet teapot" to me is a good thing, although Lisa was saying it is a bad thing last night. :confused: {:wink:}

Personally; I think that teachers need the names because they have to record the lesson, may have to repeat the move exactly the same way again, have to stick to the routine more than twice without varying it, and need to be able to discuss the move referring to various distinct parts of it.
Beginners and new intermediates I think need them to give a sense of consistancy and to prove that they do actually know a few moves. It is also a usefull reminder for changing repertour or calling to your partner if you are about to do a variation.
But are they important to me: no. "twiddly bit, back-pass, smooth slide, catch" does me just fine. :waycool:


:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

Have some..... :hug:

Emma
8th-August-2004, 08:26 PM
Personally I couldn't give a stuff about the names of moves - as a follower the name is irrelevant to me..I just need to be able to follow (we live in eternal hope ;) )...but I can see that as Gadget says there is a point in having them for teachers because...'first move variation number number 42' gives few clues and teaching MJ/Ceroc isn't suppsed to be a memory test. I also know several men (most of whom I imagine are somewhere on the asperger's spectrum, not that there's anything wrong with that! :devil: ) who like to collect them, and write them down. And no doubt cross reference them :nice:

Tiggerbabe
8th-August-2004, 09:05 PM
Personally I couldn't give a stuff about the names of moves - as a follower the name is irrelevant to me..I just need to be able to follow
:yeah:

I also know several men /snip/.............. who like to collect them, and write them down. And no doubt cross reference them :nice:
And then they ask you (while dancing) if you know the wurlitzer, wrap around, duck under, swizzle variation - :D 'fraid I usually just say - "no idea - you lead it and we'll see" :wink: or alternatively - by the time you've said "WHAT?" they're doing it :whistle:

Tiggerbabe
8th-August-2004, 09:07 PM
On a serious note though, as Gadget says - there have to be names so that the teachers can keep a track of what they have used in their lessons, and the taxi dancers can find out what was taught the previous week (when they weren't on duty :grin: )
I too, know the names of the beginner's moves but struggle to remember the names from the intermediate class. :blush:

DavidY
8th-August-2004, 10:57 PM
I also know several men (most of whom I imagine are somewhere on the asperger's spectrum, not that there's anything wrong with that! :devil: ) who like to collect them, and write them down. And no doubt cross reference them :nice:I think some of us just aren't blessed with perfect memories. :tears:

It used to really annoy me when I couldn't remember moves 2 days after I'd been taught them in a class.

So I started writing them down. I don't really enjoy it & I find it a pain to write moves down in sufficient detail to mean anything later on, as it takes up valuable time when I could be dancing/ sleeping/ reading the forum/ whatever. But it does mean I stand a chance of remembering stuff from week to week - and I think it has helped my dancing.

These days I usually only bother to write down a move when I like a move or routine (or, even better, when someone I'm dancing with tells me she likes it). Also I'll write down hints and tips that I take away from classes & workshops - these may not be actual moves so much as style advice etc.

I can't remember the actual names - I just write "First Move Variation, let go left hand" (or some such). Knowing the names of Beginner's moves (and some other "building block moves") is a helpful aide memoire to how more complex moves start.

I don't cross reference them either... :na:

Emma
8th-August-2004, 11:04 PM
I think some of us just aren't blessed with perfect memories. :tears:
~snip
I don't cross reference them either... :na:Oh dear, I knew I was bound to tread on a few toes with that comment :blush: there's nothing at all wrong with doing that! :flower: I *do* realise it's a way that lots of leaders use to help themselves to remember moves (sorry sorry shouldn't have taken the p*ss!!) :nice:

Tiggerbabe
8th-August-2004, 11:44 PM
It used to really annoy me when I couldn't remember moves 2 days after I'd been taught them in a class.

So I started writing them down.
:hug: As Emma says David, nothing wrong with that - I've written down moves myself from workshops and things - but it's an aid for yourself - not something that you're going to start reeling off verbatim to your dance partner in the middle of freestyle :flower: :flower: :flower:

Gordon J Pownall
9th-August-2004, 09:53 AM
I think some of us just aren't blessed with perfect memories.

It used to really annoy me when I couldn't remember moves 2 days after I'd been taught them in a class.

....and you are not alone by any means....I teach four nights a week and can't remember which venue I'm at most of the time..... :whistle:

Seriously, there is this (sweeping statement now) belief held by men that they have to remember x00s of moves to be a good dancer. This is particularly true of men who have just recently moved into the intermediate class or have been dancing for about 4-8 months.(sweeping statement over )

STOP trying to remember every move you've been taught in a class. You will never remember and freestyle more than about 15 - 20 moves maximum because the brain will just not work that well (unless you're some sort of genius). :sick:

I need you and other men who are worried about remembering loads of moves to do something for me (or better still do it for yourself)........

At your next class night / dance night / freestyle sit down for three tracks and watch just one man dance three tracks..... :what:

Repeat this for two or three men and you will see that whilst the order of moves or links may be different, they will be dancing the same repertoire (more or less) of moves with each lady.....try and count how many moves and you will see that there are not that many (excepting perhaps a few variations)....

Ladies are lucky, they get a different dance every time (twenty - thirty a night perhaps) whereas men only get one dance - that is the one they lead...!!! :(

Putting yourself under pressure to learn and then remember whilst on the floor will only make dancing more difficult as you try to remember what moves you have done, what you haven't done and what is left that you know or you think you know.....and this is dancing for pleasure...??? :eek:

Just do the class, focus on maybe one or two moves that you enjoy or like or find easy or which appeal to your nature / whatever and don't worry about remembering everything.

If this was possible then work out being taught one lesson each week for even just one year that's over two hundered moves you're looking to notate / remember.....

Sounds like hard work....... :drool:

You will find that whilst you repertoire may change, it will not get bigger week by week - what will happen is that as you introduce a new move into your dancing repertoire, you will find that in three months time you've not danced a neckbreak for ages for example.... so stick with what you enjoy.....

Unless you're training for a competition or a showcase, MJ and Ceroc is based upon freestyle dance at the centre of it...you turn up, ask (or get asked) to dance - you boogie on down and then on to the next dance......

I am sure (and I've asked a few) ladies would prefer a nice dance with a few moves rather than a disjointed half confused / pressured dance with thirty moves half executed and you looking upwards for divine intervention or inspiration.....

Enjoy and concentrate on enjoying the dance and the lady in your arms.....:yeah:

Coooo......I don't half go on sometimes......hope this was helpful...... :hug:

Tiggerbabe
9th-August-2004, 11:33 AM
Coooo......I don't half go on sometimes......
And every now and then you post something incredibly sensible :wink:
As a follower (mostly) and a leader (sometimes) I totally agree with everything you just said :hug:

Gordon J Pownall
9th-August-2004, 12:28 PM
And every now and then you post something incredibly sensible :wink:
As a follower (mostly) and a leader (sometimes) I totally agree with everything you just said :hug:

Why thank you kindly ma'am...... :hug: :hug: :flower:

MartinHarper
9th-August-2004, 12:55 PM
Repeat this for two or three men and you will see that whilst the order of moves or links may be different, they will be dancing the same repertoire (more or less) of moves with each lady

Sure, I've seen lots of men do this, and I do it myself... but I still aspire to do better than that. This doesn't mean I stress about it, or have a particular target. :)

People seem to suggest changing the moves you do depending on the skill of the follower, on the style of music, on the speed of the music, on how tired you both are, on whether the follower likes a certain type of move, on how sweaty you both are, on how late it is, on how crowded it is, ... and I don't see how you can get enough flexibility to do all that if you can only remember 15-20 moves max.

I guess the benefits of naming moves varies depending on how your mind works. For me, names are important: if I can't name something, I find it much harder to understand it.

DavidY
9th-August-2004, 06:36 PM
....and you are not alone ... ~SNIP~ Coooo......I don't half go on sometimes......hope this was helpful...... :hug:Hi Gordon, Thanks for your reply which is very helpful and I agree with most of what you said but ...
I need you and other men who are worried about remembering loads of moves ...I didn't mean to imply I was worried about remembering loads of moves.

I felt Emma's original post might discourage some beginner men reading this thread from writing moves down. (Sorry Emma :flower: ) So I was only trying to say that (IMO at least) it's OK to write down moves, and probably a good idea, especially if you're a beginner trying to remember them. Not sure I succeeded in getting that across though. :sad:

As I said in my original post, these days I don't bother unless it's a move I particularly like - the stuff about not increasing your repertoire (as you learn new moves you forget old ones) is (sadly :tears: ) too true.

David

Lory
9th-August-2004, 09:41 PM
Ladies are lucky, they get a different dance every time (twenty - thirty a night perhaps) whereas men only get one dance - that is the one they lead...!!! :(


This is very true but there's a few men I dance with regularly, maybe once or twice in a night every week, I actually know their basic routines now! BUT, I hasten to add, I still LOVE dancing with them! :nice: Sometimes, when us followers know what's coming, that's when we can chance being a little experimental ourselves. :clap: :cheers:

MartinHarper
2nd-November-2004, 12:51 AM
My attempts to build a JazzJive to Ceroc dictionary continue... I now know that a JazzJive Sugar Push is an American Spin in Ceroc, but an American Spin in JazzJive is a Lady Spin in Ceroc, but a Lady Spin in JazzJive is a Wurlitzer Exit in Ceroc.
Or something like that, anyway - I get confused.

spindr
2nd-November-2004, 12:53 PM
Hmmm, incomplete, etc. but might help a bit -- here's the alternative names I've found (http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/Index.html)


Andy Pandy, see Crazy Catapult
Apache turn, see Backhander
Arch, see Archie Spin
Archie Eight, see Archie Double Spin
Arm Breaker, see Backhander
Arm Swing, see Catapult Towel
Bar Push, see Left-Handed Hatchback
Barry's World, see Bibbledy bop
Basket flip (flick), see Basket Spin
Behind Arm Jive, see Catapult Towel
Butterfly, see Slidebreak
Doggy Paddle, see Ralph's Move
Eskimo Roll, see First Move - Checked
First Move Block, see First Move - Checked
Five Beat First Move, see First Move Push
Fountain, see Overhead Change
Hairbrush (Salsa), see Comb
Hallelujah, see Overhead Change
Hatch Flick, see Nigel's Move
Hatchback trust, see Confident Hatchback
Hip Spin, see Backhandle
Hip to Hip, see Shoulder Bumps
I Turn, You Turn, see Figure Of Eight
Kleaver, see Cleaver
Little Window, see Cajun Window
Man Spin (Step Across), see Change Of Places
Man/Lady Breakthrough, see Loophole
Monkey Walks, see Monkee Walks
Octopus, see Loophole
Push and Pull, see Arm Jive
Rainbow, see Overhead Change
Short Backhander, see Chopped Backhander
Shoulder Pull, see Cleaver
Split Pretzel, see Zany Pretzel
Step Across, see Step Under
Step Through, see Step Under
Texas Tommy, see Backhander
Travelling Arm Jive, see Grinder
Wrapper, see Flingy Flung
Wurlitzer Hesitation, see Flingy Flung

jivecat
2nd-November-2004, 01:17 PM
:hug: As Emma says David, nothing wrong with that - I've written down moves myself from workshops and things - but it's an aid for yourself - not something that you're going to start reeling off verbatim to your dance partner in the middle of freestyle :flower: :flower: :flower:


I don't think David would ever do that. :nice:

Zebra Woman
2nd-November-2004, 01:40 PM
I like to just dance in the zone with no words exchanged and no recognition of actual moves. But occassionally if the man needs inspiration and offers me a request I'll ask for a move I like. That's when the name is handy. If there is a name for an intermediate move I would like the teacher to announce it.

I like to invent my own names for moves too. Ceroc Jock did a good one at Ashtons...I've called it EYES WIDE SHUT :eek: :eek: :eek:

Believe me they were :blush:

stewart38
3rd-November-2004, 08:19 PM
I think some of us just aren't blessed with perfect memories. :tears:

It used to really annoy me when I couldn't remember moves 2 days after I'd been taught them in a class.

So I started writing them down. I don't really enjoy it & I find it a pain to write ......

I don't cross reference them either... :na:

Would this work with remembering womens names, sometimes its embarrassing :sad:

philsmove
3rd-November-2004, 08:34 PM
Would this work with remembering womens names, sometimes its embarrassing :sad:
I have to confess to writing a few names down at the end of a lesson
I look at them just before the next lesson :blush:
Yes it does work
One tip don’t write too many down at once

jiveoholic
1st-May-2005, 11:36 PM
Some who are not already aware can get a list of well known jive terminology in the "Jiveoholics dictionary of terminology at www.jiveoholic.org.uk under advice. Suggestions for additions welcome - see back page.

kingo
4th-May-2005, 07:51 PM
Only for one reason...
You go to a new venue and someone teaches you a move that you like.
A week later you can remember most of the move but something's missing or it doesn't feel the same, so you can't share it with your friends.
If you've remembered the name, then there is a fighting chance that your regular teacher (assuming they are from the same organisation) can remind you/your partner what it looks like, or even include it in their routine the following week.

However if it was simply called a 'variation on a basket' instead of a 'short basket into ladies nelson' then he/she is going to have to run through a lot of potential variations before you recognise your move.