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Emma
30th-July-2004, 12:45 PM
...as opposed to a little whine, which is what the grape gave when the elephant sat on it..
[moan begins]
I did an intermediate class the other night. Four nice moves - the first with a bit of mambo-ish footwork, nothing *really* difficult, but hard enough you had to think a bit at first..the rest were pretty straightforward and at least one of them has been taught at the venue before, from what I remember

Anyway...after the routine had been demo'd, a proportion of dancers took themselves with their partners to the back of the hall, to do the class out of the routine. All of them were able dancers. This meant that there was a..how shall I put this..higher proportion of dancers who take a little longer than most to pick up a routine left in the class. Having said that, by the end most of them had pretty much got it :clap:

It *really* irritates me (yes! really! :angry: ) when people go off regularly to the back of the room - it's so selfish...I believe it sends a message to the people left in the class that they are not 'good enough' to dance with, and perpetuates the 'good dancer' hierarchy. It also breeds upon itself, because people staying in the routine or new to the intermediate will see (imo) the people at the back of the class doing the routine separately and think 'Oh, one day I can be good enough to go to the back with those good dancers' (some of whom are taxi dancers - what sort of message is that sending? ).
[/moan ends]

Anyway, I'd like to say for the sake of balance that I realise sometimes there are good reasons to go out of the class, but I don't mean those occasional times, I mean doing it week in, week out.

I'd really like to see an active policy of discouraging this behaviour. :flower: *thinks calm thoughts*

Divissima
30th-July-2004, 01:02 PM
While I see your point of view, Emma, I'm afraid I don't really agree with what you are saying :blush:

I would probably have to count myself as a persistent offender in this category - certainly when attending Amir's classes (which I usually do on a weekly basis), although not usually when I go to ceroc venues (less frequently) where my normal practice is to circulate in the class, if I'm doing the class. My feeling is that I'm paying my money (which I work hard to earn), coming in my (all too scarce) free time, and if I feel I would benefit more from doing the class as a fixed couple, I should make no apology for doing so. :blush: :blush:

How it looks to others is, of course, not something I can control. I understand that, to some dancers in the class, it might look as though the dancers at the back might think they are 'too good to rotate', but that is in their mind, not the minds of the people who take themselves to the back (or, at least, not all of them, I hope :devil: ).

I remember that when I first started dancing, it felt demoralising to see the more established dancers apparently set themselves apart from the rank and file of the class, so I do know what you are saying. It's all a matter of perception - but I do think people are entitled to that choice.

Sorry to disagree :flower:

under par
30th-July-2004, 01:14 PM
While I see your point of view, Emma, I'm afraid I don't really agree with what you are saying :blush:

I would probably have to count myself as a persistent offender in this category - certainly when attending Amir's classes (which I usually do on a weekly basis), although not usually when I go to ceroc venues (less frequently) where my normal practice is to circulate in the class, if I'm doing the class. My feeling is that I'm paying my money (which I work hard to earn), coming in my (all too scarce) free time, and if I feel I would benefit more from doing the class as a fixed couple, I should make no apology for doing so. :blush: :blush:

How it looks to others is, of course, not something I can control. I understand that, to some dancers in the class, it might look as though the dancers at the back might think they are 'too good to rotate', but that is in their mind, not the minds of the people who take themselves to the back (or, at least, not all of them, I hope :devil: ).

I remember that when I first started dancing, it felt demoralising to see the more established dancers apparently set themselves apart from the rank and file of the class, so I do know what you are saying. It's all a matter of perception - but I do think people are entitled to that choice.

Sorry to disagree :flower:

Emma got to say I agree with Divvi.

I have been asked to taxi several times at a couple of venues and refused each request on the ground that I pay my money I dance where I want and with who I want.

I mostly do the lesson and rotate round the class.

On occasions I do the lesson separatley with Mrs Par

I sometimes do the lesson separately with somebody else other than Mrs Par.

I sometimes go outside the hall to practice moves other than the lesson.

Finally I sometimes sit out the lesson completely and chat.

None of the options above are set up to upset the teacher /class. they are just my options when I pay my money at the door of any venue.

I can see how others may percieve the split but if explained properly no insult/harm should be done.
:hug: :yeah:

Pammy
30th-July-2004, 01:19 PM
B. & I do it at the back of the room for the opposite reasons. He doesn't feel all that confident and prefers that it is me he yanks around until he gets it right and feels that he learns more at this stage with someone he knows. Not disagreeing with you, just saying here is a case of a beginner/intermediate doing it at the back. :nice:

tsh
30th-July-2004, 01:25 PM
I'd really like to see an active policy of discouraging this behaviour. :flower: *thinks calm thoughts*

I think you're mis interpreting this behaviour. If some people feel they can only cope with an intermediate lesson by keeping the same partner, then they shouldn't feel pressured to dance with people who can cope with changing partners :D

Maybe after the lesson, you should approach one of the couple, and offer to let them lead you through the routine, just to build their confidence?

Andy McGregor
30th-July-2004, 01:35 PM
Well I agree with Emma. Which unfortunately means I find myself disagreeing with Divissima and under par - and I love them both, but in slightly different ways :hug:

I don't think the biggest problem of this is the impression less experienced dancers get, although that is still one of the problems: the biggest problem is that when women are over, as is usually the case, they get to do the lesson much, much less :tears:

This practice of fixed-partners at the back of the room has reached a ridiculous level at Hipsters on Wednesdays. So much so Sue has switched her allegiance to Tuesday Hipsters as a result. What happened the last time we went was that there were about 69 (approx - I've chosen this number because I can do the maths in my head, it was about 70) dancers doing the class with 9 women over so that's 30 men and 39 women. If everyone lined up like a normal class each woman would dance 3 times before waiting to rejoin the lines. BUT, 18 couples chose to be fixed partners at the back of the room. This left 12 men and 21 women (these are the actual numbers because I counted). So now we had 9 women over: you don't have to be a genius to work out that the first 6 women waiting to come on will dance just once and be back in the waiting line the very next time they are moved on :tears: Those women waiting in line had paid the same money as those women in the fixed couples - but they got about half the teaching. Is this fair? :angry:

I think that Divissima is right that she paid her money. But she didn't design the product. And I think the product is a lesson where people move on in lines and dance with different people. If people want special treatment and a different product I think they should pay a special and different price.

Andy McGregor
30th-July-2004, 01:40 PM
Isn't this great, a Friday moan-in :wink:

The other thing that niggles me (no stronger than that) is what some men do at the start of a lesson. The just walk on and join a line on their own and hold their hand up in an imperious manner - as if to say "have a woman washed, oiled and brought to my room". Come on girls, wait for them to ask you like the gentlemen they should be :devil:

under par
30th-July-2004, 01:43 PM
I think that Divissima is right that she paid her money. But she didn't design the product. And I think the product is a lesson where people move on in lines and dance with different people. If people want special treatment and a different product I think they should pay a special and different price.

I think you are being ever so slightly provacative Andy. where does it say anywhere at any venue what "the product" is?

i've certainly not seen it anywhere nor have I seen any contract stating when I pay my money I must join in and rotate in the class(although I mostly do and enjoy it).

Freedom of choice is what I want for my money. :yeah:

Jayne
30th-July-2004, 01:54 PM
I agree with Divi :flower:

I go to one class a week - Amir's class on a Wednesday. Now Amir's class is taught in three sections. First, there's the dance fundamentals where he teaches technique. This is taught in rotation. Second, there is a body styling section, for which you need no partner. Finally there is an advanced class of advanced moves.

As this is the only class I attend, I want to get as much out of it as possible.

I will rotate for the technique class as there's not much that can go wrong. In fact, I find that dancing with a range of people is a good way of understanding why some things don't work with some people. (The exception to rotating is if Amir is teaching drops - I have a dodgy back and so will either drop out completely or have a fixed partner.)

However, for the advanced class I retreat to the back of the room with my competition partner. That way we both get to learn the routine and associated style points and neither of us gets injured by people who are attempting a class that's beyond them. Occasionally we pick up things that we use for competition too.

I do not go to the back of the room because I think I'm a far better dancer than everyone else in the class.

I can see why some people might perceive this behaviour as selfish. However, I hope that replies on this thread with dispel such myths.

I'd also add that if there are very few couples in the class (a rare thing these days in Amir's classes :clap: ) then I don't dance at the back of the room, but will join the rest of the class. However, once the class has increased in size and can sustain itself I will go to the back of the room, where I find I can learn more effectively.

I hope that modern jive is sufficiently broad minded to appreciate that this is the most effective way for some people to learn (which, afterall, is what we're paying for). I would therefore NOT like to see policies discouraging this behaviour - sorry Emma. :flower:

J :nice:

Sparkles
30th-July-2004, 01:55 PM
IMO, as long as everyone that is in the room and dancing is doing (following) the class how they decide to do it is up to them.

What I find irritating is people who use the back of the room for thier own practice while a class is going on. It's distracting to the people trying to learn and disrespectful to the teacher and demo :angry:

Oh it does feel good to have a moan on a Friday!

spindr
30th-July-2004, 01:58 PM
Well taking it to its logical extreme -- if the class goes to 100% fixed partners, then the "Do I have to bring a partner?" answer would have to be fixed on any advertising literature :)

SpinDr.

under par
30th-July-2004, 02:00 PM
IMO, as long as everyone that is in the room and dancing is doing (following) the class how they decide to do it is up to them.

What I find irritating is people who use the back of the room for thier own practice while a class is going on. It's distracting to the people trying to learn and disrespectful to the teacher and demo :angry:

Oh it does feel good to have a moan on a Friday!


Another hug required Sparkles... :hug: :kiss: :hug:

philsmove
30th-July-2004, 02:03 PM
This is a bit of a problem area and I can see both points view

I went with a partner to a specials class, and we decided to “rotate “ but a lot of the advanced dancers moved to the back and stayed together

This denied us the chance to practice with the better dancers, which is why we went to the class in the first place

Next time, we will probably also stay together, but I am not too happy about this, it seems to go against the spirit of things

Most classes have a set of rules or etiquette (admittedly unwritten) I don’t think just because you are paying to go to the class you have a right break that etiquette


I think teachers should try making it clear weather it is: couples only; all move round; or do as you please. We can then choose which classes we attend, and how we spend our hard earned cash

Divissima
30th-July-2004, 02:06 PM
Well I agree with Emma. Which unfortunately means I find myself disagreeing with Divissima and under par - and I love them both, but in slightly different ways :hug:Hey, disagreement is a healthy part of any friendship :kiss:


This practice of fixed-partners at the back of the room has reached a ridiculous level at Hipsters on Wednesdays. So much so Sue has switched her allegiance to Tuesday Hipsters as a result. What happened the last time we went was that there were about 69 (approx - I've chosen this number because I can do the maths in my head, it was about 70) dancers doing the class with 9 women over so that's 30 men and 39 women. If everyone lined up like a normal class each woman would dance 3 times before waiting to rejoin the lines. BUT, 18 couples chose to be fixed partners at the back of the room. This left 12 men and 21 women (these are the actual numbers because I counted). So now we had 9 women over: you don't have to be a genius to work out that the first 6 women waiting to come on will dance just once and be back in the waiting line the very next time they are moved on :tears: Those women waiting in line had paid the same money as those women in the fixed couples - but they got about half the teaching. Is this fair? :angry: Again, Andy, I have to say that I entirely appreciate the point you are making. And I must admit that, by more people doing the class in a fixed couple, this exacerbates the problem of an excess of men or women (as the case may be) who, as a result, may be rotated onto the bench more frequently than would otherwise be the case.

Hipsters on a Wednesday is perhaps a special case. The second class, after the style workout, is an advanced class, often comprising unusual and demanding moves. My personal motivation for doing the advanced class in a fixed couple with TwK is that it means we can 'bank' a move if we like it,so that we can put it into our repetoire. And if we can get it without having to repeat it too many times, this helps us protect our respective niggling injuries. I am sure that there are many and various reasons why other couples choose not to rotate - all of them as justifiable or unjustifiable as mine.

I'm not sure that it is right to say that the people who rotate get (to take the example you gave of your last visit to Hipsters) half the teaching - although you are right that they get half the practice. I'm not sure that it would be fair to enforce rotation in the class either, although there may be ways to encourage it.


I think that Divissima is right that she paid her money. But she didn't design the product. And I think the product is a lesson where people move on in lines and dance with different people. If people want special treatment and a different product I think they should pay a special and different price.Again, I'm going to disagree. I would suggest that the product is - simply - a collective lesson where people are taught to dance. People can sit out all or part of the class, join part way through, can come one week, then have a few weeks out, come back and pick up where they left off. I'm not sure it is a case of people wanting special treatment or a different product - just to learn in the way which suits them best.

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 02:09 PM
Part (Most?) of me wants to agree with Jayne, UP and Divi. I've always maintained that you pay your money, you take your choice.

However, taking Andy's example to the extreme (who, me?). You could have every man in the class taken off to be a fixed couple, and that'd leave 9 women there with no-one to dance with. I guess no-one would want to be one of those 9 spare ladies. Maybe it's worth just considering how you'd feel in that situation?

Of course, it does look elitist, as Emma says. Probably a bit like 'Hotshots' were considered elitist. Though, of course, we know that none of Jayne, Divi or UP are hotshots, and they all dance with a wide variety of dancers all night.

Apart from a class involving drops, where I'd agree that maybe ladies should have a chance to say who they want to do drops with (though, of course, they could still go round the line, and say to anyone they don't want to do the drop with "I'm sorry, I don't know you well enough to do this with you"), maybe people should be expected to take part in the class, rather than being separate. I don't know.

I'm not sure that I have a problem with people who are practising things other than the class - unless they are doing things that draw attention away from the teacher.

Anyhow, since I very rarely do classes anyhow, who am I to say anything :D

Trampy

Lounge Lizard
30th-July-2004, 02:11 PM
IMO, as long as everyone that is in the room and dancing is doing (following) the class how they decide to do it is up to them.

What I find irritating is people who use the back of the room for thier own practice while a class is going on. It's distracting to the people trying to learn and disrespectful to the teacher and demo :angry:

Oh it does feel good to have a moan on a Friday!I was guilty of this on Tuesday at Hipsters, cos we had to work out a routine for the intermediate class while Roger was teaching, (I was DJ'ing directly after his class), unfortunatly there was no other area (that I was aware off) to practice, but I did feel awkward as it could have distracted from the class being taught. So sorry to rog and anyone in the class
peter

Zebra Woman
30th-July-2004, 02:17 PM
I am one of the women who Andy descibed as on and off again, because of the fixed couples at the back.

But I would defend Divi, Jayne and Mrs Par's right to keep their excellent partners to themselves at the back. It's a free country isn't it?

I have a bad shoulder and back and fingers (all caused by dancing in intermediate classes BTW) :( .....so I often sit out the class. Occasionally I'm offered the chance to keep the same partner, and I leap at the chance.
For me, and whoever my partner is it's the easiest way to really learn the move and add it to the man's repertoire. I find I'm more likely to remember the move too if he forgets it, because I haven't had to walk and count . :confused: very hard walking and counting....

Alison :flower: :flower:

Gus
30th-July-2004, 02:19 PM
i've certainly not seen it anywhere nor have I seen any contract stating when I pay my money I must join in and rotate in the class(although I mostly do and enjoy it).


Afraid I have to back Andy. Ignoring Hipsters, the 'Ceroc' model of running a night is fundamentaly based on rotation and interaction. Its a social thing as much as anything else. at one club we strated having a significant numbers trying to 'partner' up ... we spent time with them to persuade them otherwise. some stayed some left. I've never had a real problem with people partnering up in our classes, not even in the advanced. People appreciate that its a group thing and so join in together.

Personally, if someone wants to 'perfect' the routine later with a partner...fine. BUT I would have a real issue with somone trying to do that during one of my lessons. Maybe its just a North/South thing ..... we're a friendlier bunch up North :devil:

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 02:23 PM
Hipsters on a Wednesday is perhaps a special case. The second class, after the style workout, is an advanced class, often comprising unusual and demanding moves. My personal motivation for doing the advanced class in a fixed couple with TwK is that it means we can 'bank' a move if we like it,so that we can put it into our repetoire. And if we can get it without having to repeat it too many times, this helps us protect our respective niggling injuries. I am sure that there are many and various reasons why other couples choose not to rotate - all of them as justifiable or unjustifiable as mine.
Sorry. While I agree with the rest of your post Divi. I don't quite understand why you can only 'bank' a move that you've done when you do it as a fixed couple.

If you like a move that much when you're moving round in a class, what's to stop you getting together with Toby after the class, running though it a couple of times, and then 'banking' it.

Seems like a bit of a fallacious arguement to me :flower:

Trampy

Trish
30th-July-2004, 02:23 PM
Well taking it to its logical extreme -- if the class goes to 100% fixed partners, then the "Do I have to bring a partner?" answer would have to be fixed on any advertising literature :)

SpinDr.

Yes that's what bothers me about it too. I don't personally agree with people dancing with fixed partners, except in exceptional circumstances (like where someones got a bad back and the teacher is teaching drops - although they do often teach alternatives anyway). As a woman who comes to Ceroc on her own (my husband doesn't dance) I get a bit fed up with it really. Especially when it's mainly the best men (who happen to be dancing with their regular partners) who are "at the back", leaving the lesson filled with the not so good men. It does make you feel that they think they're better than the rest of us. If it's beginners who are keeping to exclusive partners, I can understand this from a confidence perspective. Although two beginners together would in my opinion actually benefit more from rotating, as they're likely to be helped by the more experienced dancers that are rotating, and more likely to confuse each other if they are separate.

At my regular venue, you seem to get a lot of "exclusivity" anyway - which is a shame, as it cuts down the number/vairety of people to dance with.

There - got that off my chest - no offence meant!

Franck
30th-July-2004, 02:24 PM
If people want special treatment and a different product I think they should pay a special and different price.Andy, I totally agree with you.
Ceroc / MJ is one of the few dance classes where you don't have to go with a partner and the above practise seriously jeopardises this.
I personally get irritated, as a teacher, when one or two couples opt out of the rotation, and can't imagine how I would feel or what I would do if 19 couples opted out of the rotation.
Regular weekly classes are different from workshops (where numbers should be balanced) and in my opinion the rotations and changing of partner is not only expected but beneficial to all parties.

I can see why some people might perceive this behaviour as selfish. However, I hope that replies on this thread with dispel such myths.
I disagree, it is selfish, most of the dancers who retreat to the back would probably not be dancing today if that practise was widely adopted as they would either have given up when facing the prospect of an extra 15 women and only 20 or so couples rotating, or simply they wouldn't have had a chance to dance with some of the better dancers at all :sad:
The money you are paying is for a group class, where everyone helps each other. The 6 or 7 pounds your are paying for 2 hours of tuition + freestyle is exactly that. If you want private lessons, then pay for private lessons (typically 30/50 pounds an hour) or do a workshop...

Nothing like that happens in any venue I attend, thankfully, but I would fight it if it ever did. sorry Jayne :flower:

Divissima
30th-July-2004, 02:28 PM
Taking Andy's example to the extreme (who, me?). You could have every man in the class taken off to be a fixed couple, and that'd leave 9 women there with no-one to dance with. I guess no-one would want to be one of those 9 spare ladies. Maybe it's worth just considering how you'd feel in that situation?Well, I'm sure in this extreme example, many of the fixed couples would, of course, move into the class to rotate.


Of course, it does look elitist, as Emma says. Probably a bit like 'Hotshots' were considered elitist.Well, as I said earlier, IMHO this is just a matter of one's point of view.

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 02:29 PM
Can I just say, that it seems a shame that this post seems to have focussed on Hipsters.

I remember ChrisA defending it vigorously to someone a while back, as being really immensely friendly, and that the person (can't remember who - Stewart38 maybe?) who came along once, and found it very unfriendly was totally wrong.

Of course, this perception of it being unfriendly wouldn't have anything to do with almost half the class (in Andy's example) being exclusive amongst themselves at the back of the room, and not joining in with the class.

Obviously, when Jayne says that she does the class at the back with one person, she wouldn't at all mean ChrisA, who is there, in the rotational, helping to maintain the 'friendliness' that we all know totally pervades the room at Hipsters (we know this, ChrisA defended it very vigorously).

Sorry. This was said almost very tongue-in-cheek :devil: :whistle: :flower:

Trampy

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 02:33 PM
Well, I'm sure in this extreme example, many of the fixed couples would, of course, move into the class to rotate.
So. Where does this extreme example start/end then Divi??

10 ladies, 1 man, 38 exclusive couples?
11 ladies, 2 men, 37 exclusive couples?
12 ladies, 3 men, 36 exclusive couples?
.
.
.
.
48 ladies, 39 men, 0 exclusive couples?

And, of course, which of the exclusive couples would start the move back to the class. And which of the exclusive couples would wait for other exclusive couples to make the move back to the class, to the point where they considered it back to being 'acceptable' to stay at the back, as exclusive.

Maybe there could be a rota of exclusivity or something?? :devil: :D

Trampy

under par
30th-July-2004, 02:35 PM
Yes that's what bothers me about it too. I don't personally agree with people dancing with fixed partners, except in exceptional circumstances (like where someones got a bad back and the teacher is teaching drops - although they do often teach alternatives anyway). As a woman who comes to Ceroc on her own (my husband doesn't dance) I get a bit fed up with it really. Especially when it's mainly the best men (who happen to be dancing with their regular partners) who are "at the back", leaving the lesson filled with the not so good men. It does make you feel that they think they're better than the rest of us. If it's beginners who are keeping to exclusive partners, I can understand this from a confidence perspective. Although two beginners together would in my opinion actually benefit more from rotating, as they're likely to be helped by the more experienced dancers that are rotating, and more likely to confuse each other if they are separate.

At my regular venue, you seem to get a lot of "exclusivity" anyway - which is a shame, as it cuts down the number/vairety of people to dance with.

There - got that off my chest - no offence meant!


No offence taken a valid point of view in a really good discussion.

I have taken on board Andy Franck and others opinion, I still reserve the right to dance lesson with Mrs Par but as i have already stated I do the rotation most if the time and realise that most should do so. :flower: :worthy:

Simon r
30th-July-2004, 02:36 PM
Obviously, when Jayne says that she does the class at the back with one person, she wouldn't at all mean ChrisA, who is there, in the rotational, helping to maintain the 'friendliness' that we all know totally pervades the room at Hipsters (we know this, ChrisA defended it very vigourously).

Sorry. This was said almost very tongue-in-cheek :devil: :whistle: :flower:

Trampy
I step forward as witness number 1 Judge Tramp but was totaly guilty of the same... :flower:

Jayne
30th-July-2004, 02:36 PM
Ignoring Hipsters, the 'Ceroc' model of running a night is fundamentaly based on rotation and interaction.
Actually, this is an interesting point. With the exception of the "Ceroc Advanced" nights (which I've not been to and so cannot comment on) I think that there is a fundamental difference between Ceroc and Hipsters - primarily that ceroc teaches beginners & intermediates and that Hipsters teaches advanced.

One of the most important aspects of MJ at the start of the learning curve is getting out there and dancing with as many people as possible - which is where the rotation is so important. Furthermore, rotating means that you get to meet so many people - giving you a social aspect of the night and making newbies want to return the following week.

Historically, Ceroc has been weak in providing for the more advanced dancer. This (I believe) lead to the establishment of nights like Hipsters, where (mainly) competant dancers could go to improve technique and learn advanced moves with advanced dancers. Advanced dancers generally know the people on the dance scene and so there is less emphasis on meeting people and more emphasis on technique and complex moves. The requirements of this group of customers are different from those of the new dancers. This, I believe, is reflected in the way that people learn in the two classes - i.e. initially in rotation and then by dancing with a fixed partner.

I think that the requirements of the two groups of paying customers should be taken into account.

J :nice:

Divissima
30th-July-2004, 02:39 PM
Sorry. While I agree with the rest of your post Divi. I don't quite understand why you can only 'bank' a move that you've done when you do it as a fixed couple.

If you like a move that much when you're moving round in a class, what's to stop you getting together with Toby after the class, running though it a couple of times, and then 'banking' it.

Seems like a bit of a fallacious arguement to me :flower:

TrampyI wasn't advancing this as an argument for fixed couples - just explaining why I personally have found it more effective for me to do Amir's class in a fixed couple. Maybe this is splitting hairs, but the point I was trying to make is that there are bound to be lots of reasons why people might want to do a class in a fixed couple. I don't really draw any distinction between the possible reasons - good or bad, justifiable or not - it depends on your point of view.

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 02:44 PM
Uh huh.

But I still don't understand why you can't 'bank' a move with Toby, having done the class in rotation. You say that you've found it more effective. I just don't understand how/why it would be more effective in this example.

Of course, since you're not advancing it as an arguement, then it's not really a reason, which means that you can't be saying that it's more effective. Because, if it was more effective, as you say, then you'd surely be advancing it as an arguement??

Trampy

Divissima
30th-July-2004, 02:45 PM
So. Where does this extreme example start/end then Divi??

10 ladies, 1 man, 38 exclusive couples?
11 ladies, 2 men, 37 exclusive couples?
12 ladies, 3 men, 36 exclusive couples?
.
.
.
.
48 ladies, 39 men, 0 exclusive couples?

And, of course, which of the exclusive couples would start the move back to the class. And which of the exclusive couples would wait for other exclusive couples to make the move back to the class, to the point where they considered it back to being 'acceptable' to stay at the back, as exclusive.

Maybe there could be a rota of exclusivity or something?? :devil: :D

TrampyHey Trampy, I was commenting on the extreme example you gave! Of course it's a matter of degree :rolleyes: I'm hoping that your post is mostly tongue-in-cheek as most dancers I know are perfectly capable of using their discretion to judge such a situation. Sorry, Trampy, I don't want to get drawn into a spurious argument with you (and, besides, my brain doesn't do arithmetic on a Friday afternoon :tears: ).

I have been trying to put the alternative view to Emma's in a reasonable way. Don't want this thread to degenerate like so many others.... :tears:

Jayne
30th-July-2004, 02:46 PM
Nothing like that happens in any venue I attend, thankfully, but I would fight it if it ever did. sorry Jayne :flower:
I can see your point of view Franck. :flower: However, please also see my second post on this thread (composed while you were replying to my post).


most of the dancers who retreat to the back would probably not be dancing today if that practise was widely adopted as they would either have given up when facing the prospect of an extra 15 women and only 20 or so couples rotating.
With all due respect, when I learnt MJ on a Wednesday at Glasgow University Union it was quite often the case that there were so many extra women that it was one dance partner, then off to the bench again. I know exactly how frustrating this can be. However, three and a half years later I am still dancing.

J :nice:

Andy McGregor
30th-July-2004, 02:50 PM
Firstly, I think the 'they're better than me' reason for not being fixed couples is weak. All the upset, if there is any, is with the observer: with no intent to upset by the individuals dancing as fixed couples.

But, when thinking about whether or not fixed-couples are selfish, consider this example: every woman grabs a man, and pursuades him to do the lesson as fixed couples: once all the men are taken there will be women who have no men to do the lesson with them :tears:

Is this fair?

The reason I don't rotate at Hipsters is this very one. If we all did it on the night I used as an example we'd have had nine women who wanted to do the lesson and no men available to partner them :tears:

I know all the arguments for sticking with the same partner and I agree with them. But I also think it's unfair because of the difference in the number of leaders and followers.

Now, if we both led and followed and weren't worried about dancing with a same-sex partner there'd be no such problem ...

.. just a thought.

Divissima
30th-July-2004, 02:50 PM
Uh huh.

But I still don't understand why you can't 'bank' a move with Toby, having done the class in rotation. You say that you've found it more effective. I just don't understand how/why it would be more effective in this example.I don't think it is up to you to decide if something is more effective for me?? What is there to understand? I have found it to be effective for me


Of course, since you're not advancing it as an arguement, then it's not really a reason, which means that you can't be saying that it's more effective. Because, if it was more effective, as you say, then you'd surely be advancing it as an arguement??

TrampyI was advancing it as an example (applicable to me) of one reason why a couple might choose not to rotate. I was also trying to say that, just because it was my reason, I could appreciate why other people might not necessarily agree that, in their opinion, it was a good reason.

I think you can back off now, Steve.

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 02:51 PM
earlier post about Weds Hipsters and not rotating snipped
........ :yeah: What Jayne said. :clap:

For a moment, I was worried I'd have nothing to add :whistle: but fortunately Andy came to the rescue :D



I think that Divissima is right that she paid her money. But she didn't design the product. And I think the product is a lesson where people move on in lines and dance with different people. If people want special treatment and a different product I think they should pay a special and different price.
The product at Hipsters on a Wednesday, consists of two classes and a style workshop, as Jayne has explained in detail. The third one is based on the techniques taught in the first one. And both the first and third classes are relatively difficult (at least for me), not possible for most intermediate-level dancers to pick up in an instant if they turn up late.

Which, regrettably, is what many people tend to do. I think that Amir's classes are terrific, and make a big effort to get there on time. I know that Jayne makes a similar effort. But despite the difficulty, some people still expect to turn up half way through the lesson and muddle through.

Since I find Amir's classes pretty difficult at times, I don't have any qualms about not rotating in the third class, since on at least one rotation out of three I'm likely to get someone who turned up late to the first one - or missed it entirely - and will be very likely to scupper my attempts at learning - of course there are exceptions, and sometimes the dedicated ones are delayed for some reason...

...but it's extraordinary that the latecomers are sometimes the worst yankers and anticipators. You'd think they'd be the ones that tried the hardest to follow... :tears:

Chris

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 02:52 PM
Hey Trampy, I was commenting on the extreme example you gave! Of course it's a matter of degree :rolleyes: I'm hoping that your post is mostly tongue-in-cheek as most dancers I know are perfectly capable of using their discretion to judge such a situation. Sorry, Trampy, I don't want to get drawn into a spurious argument with you (and, besides, my brain doesn't do arithmetic on a Friday afternoon :tears: ).

I have been trying to put the alternative view to Emma's in a reasonable way. Don't want this thread to degenerate like so many others.... :tears:
But it's not really a spurious arguement is it?? And there isn't really a need to do any arithmetic to understand the point that I was trying to make. Unless you were going to aim to provide us with numbers, where it would be 'acceptable' (I say 'acceptable', since, if the people who are being exclusive would move back into the class in this extreme situation, then presumably even they would find the extreme example 'unacceptable') for couples to be exclusive.

It's not spurious, since it addresses the point that you make, about couples moving back into the class in an unacceptable extreme situation. Who decides that the situation is extreme? And who picks the couples who move back? Since, presumably all the couples want to be exclusive now. So, I don't perceive any mass rush to go back to being unexclusive.

Though, it was still sort of said tongue-in-cheek.

And of course, you don't have to respond, and be drawn into any arguement, ever (spurious, or unspurious). That's your freedom of choice. (Is that exclusive??) :devil:

ODA mode, defintely on! :D

Trampy

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 02:55 PM
I don't think it is up to you to decide if something is more effective for me?? What is there to understand? I have found it to be effective for me

I was advancing it as an example (applicable to me) of one reason why a couple might choose not to rotate. I was also trying to say that, just because it was my reason, I could appreciate why other people might not necessarily agree that, in their opinion, it was a good reason.

I think you can back off now, Steve.
Sorry Divi... I'm really not picking on you. I'm just striving to understand....

I never said that it wasn't effective for you, or not effective, or anything of the sort. In fact, if you re-read what I said, I asked you a question. I was merely also seeking to come to some understanding of your position, so that I would be able to agree with you :flower:

Trampy

Gus
30th-July-2004, 02:57 PM
) I think that there is a fundamental difference between Ceroc and Hipsters - primarily that ceroc teaches beginners & intermediates and that Hipsters teaches advanced.

Urrr ... think thats a sweeping generalisation. I was talking about the 'Ceorc' model. Within that model a number of clubs, mainly non-Ceroc have been teaching advanced classes for some time. Even in my days at Ceroc Nantwich we were teaching 'unofficial' advanced lessons because we recognised the need for them. Blitz has had advanced lessons for a number of years. I don't want to get into the argument of whether Hipsters is MORE advanced ... but maybe the point is this .... if you are going to dance 'advanced moves/style' on the dancefloor with dancers who aren't your regular partner ... shouldnt you learn how to do the moves without your regular partner in the first place? Jut a thought :wink:

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 02:59 PM
With all due respect, when I learnt MJ on a Wednesday at Glasgow University Union it was quite often the case that there were so many extra women that it was one dance partner, then off to the bench again. I know exactly how frustrating this can be. However, three and a half years later I am still dancing.
With all due respect (just so that I'm not accused of picking on Divi exclusively), Franck didn't say ALL ladies would be put off dancing. Just many. Maybe that's why so many people start, and don't come back (just a thought).

Of course, we're all glad that you carried one dancing Jayne :flower: Though, you'll probably never dance with me again :tears:

Trampy

Franck
30th-July-2004, 03:00 PM
I think that the requirements of the two groups of paying customers should be taken into account.I totally agree, and I think that classes should be open about their intentions from the outset.
If Hipsters advertise their classes as open to everyone with / without partner etc... then they should deliver on that promise. If they are selling a premium product where you need a certain level of expertise and a partner, then that should be reflected in the advertising / price etc...
The problem arises when a night isn't sure of what it is...
I still think that for special workshops and classes exclusive partners should be allowed (and indeed advertised is it's a potentially dangerous class - aerials or drops for example).
On a regular class, advertised as such, then opting out is selfish. Notwithstanding exceptional cases like the 'partially sighted' lady on Tuesday at Jumpin' Jaks who for obvious reasons opted out of the rotation.
With all due respect, when I learnt MJ on a Wednesday at Glasgow University Union it was quite often the case that there were so many extra women that it was one dance partner, then off to the bench again. I know exactly how frustrating this can be. However, three and a half years later I am still dancing.Well, exactly, when there were 15 or more extra women, at least you didn't have to feel insulted because half a dozen couples thought they could bypass the problem selfishly!
Most classes have extra women, there is little we can do about it, but there is no need to add insult to injury.

David Franklin
30th-July-2004, 03:04 PM
Sorry. While I agree with the rest of your post Divi. I don't quite understand why you can only 'bank' a move that you've done when you do it as a fixed couple.Here are two specific reasons:

Something that quite often happens to me is that I realise I'm "stuck" with a bit of the move where I can't actually see what's going on (i.e. I'm facing away from the teacher). If I'm rotating (and particularly if the ladies are getting moved on a lot), I really don't want to say "do you mind not having your turn so I can watch the teacher?".

Also, if I just can't get the first part of the routine, if I'm not rotating, we can just agree "we'll just do a first move and travelling return instead" (say), and still get something from the rest of the class. You can't really do this when rotating.

These are situations where if I'm rotating, I might not even "get" the move enough to be able to repeat it outside the class, so the "solution" of practising it with my partner afterwards doesn't really work.

Going from the abstract to the specific - in practice the m/f imbalance at Hipsters is such that I do usually rotate - seems a bit unkind not to. (Plus I can never do the routine anyhow, so Bryony needs to rotate so as to have a chance :tears: )

Dave

Chicklet
30th-July-2004, 03:05 PM
Wey Hey, Ems, honey I think everyone's missed the point, you were saying that the poor folks with only one person to dance with should come up to the front, not stay at the back, weren't you??????? :whistle:

And this whole thread was just so that I could jump in and say that I could *direct* them to the front of the plane, I mean room, in my nice new vintage 1976 Caledonian Airways uniform (complete with tammy) eh????

But seriously, personally I find this a very difficult question upon which to form ONE opinion, on the one hand I agree with practially all of the reasons put forward for rotation but, being perfectly honest, would have to say I have often looked at people dancing with a fixed partner with green eyed monster eyes (not jealous of particular people, OK one or two then, more of the concept) and would love to have such an opportunity. I can completely see Jayne and Divi's points of view.

So this post really doesn't help, but hey, I've not been round much recently and in my day we didn't have serious stuff on a Friday, we just had accountant jokes :D

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 03:07 PM
I remember ChrisA defending it vigorously to someone a while back, as being really immensely friendly, and that the person (can't remember who - Stewart38 maybe?) who came along once, and found it very unfriendly was totally wrong.

I think Trampy's got a valid point (though I still reserve the right to be rude to him :devil: )

I think Wednesday Hipsters probably is a little less friendly and welcoming than it used to be, partly because of the drift towards fewer couples rotating.

But the product has changed. It is undoubtedly more serious now. It is not like a Ceroc night, it is difficult (to me) material that can really only be mastered with months of the classes, unlike four intermediate moves that are taught with little technique (and which most people won't dance in freestyle anyway). :rolleyes:

So there you go. Guilty as charged, but without apologies. If people don't like the product, there are plenty of other places offering alternate products - some very good, such as the fab duo of BillCo and Lily at the Jive Bar. But I am quite certain the MJ world is richer for the presence of the "Amir Product" - and big up to the Hipsters team for such a pioneering spirit. :clap:

My earlier defense of Hipsters' friendliness was about the people, not the product. I still maintain that they're a friendly bunch, although quite a few are doing Wednesdays because for the classes at least, they are predominantly interested in the serious learning, and only secondarily about the fun aspect.

And even the people who don't rotate dance with lots of people during the freestyle. :flower: :flower:

Chris

Stuart M
30th-July-2004, 03:08 PM
I would say that with a standard Ceroc/other organisation night, with Beginner and Intermediate lessons, any benefits of dancing with a fixed partner would be outweighed by the various bad habits one could develop. As such it should be discouraged. As Gus says, Modern Jive is a social dance and the social aspect is a fundamental part of the teaching. So I agree with Franck I think.

However, with Advanced classes or workshops I can see the point of working separately - these are often moves etc. which require specific knowledge of a partner's limits/tastes/style/shape :what: .

I think, developing on points made earlier, whether fixed partners are allowed or not, should be advertised by the workshop organisers/advanced class venue. That way, customers can makes their choice before they pays their money...I've been to a couple of workshops where the woman have been grumbling about 'all the good blokes working with a fixed partner', thus meaning they got very little out of the workshop.

Apologies if someone's already suggested this - haven't been able to read the whole thread as it's moved so fast!

Divissima
30th-July-2004, 03:08 PM
But it's not really a spurious arguement is it?? And there isn't really a need to do any arithmetic to understand the point that I was trying to make. Unless you were going to aim to provide us with numbers, where it would be 'acceptable' (I say 'acceptable', since, if the people who are being exclusive would move back into the class in this extreme situation, then presumably even they would find the extreme example 'unacceptable') for couples to be exclusive.Sorry if I was unclear on this, I meant that it would be spurious to try to create some kind of mathematical formula (even if I could :tears: ). I'm certainly not going to offer myself as an expert on where it would be acceptable to draw the line. I think most dancers are pretty good at responding to this kind of situation.

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 03:09 PM
Here are two specific reasons:

Something that quite often happens to me is that I realise I'm "stuck" with a bit of the move where I can't actually see what's going on (i.e. I'm facing away from the teacher). If I'm rotating (and particularly if the ladies are getting moved on a lot), I really don't want to say "do you mind not having your turn so I can watch the teacher?".

Also, if I just can't get the first part of the routine, if I'm not rotating, we can just agree "we'll just do a first move and travelling return instead" (say), and still get something from the rest of the class. You can't really do this when rotating.

Hiya David. Nice of you to join in the discussion!! :flower:

Have to say that if someone with your experience is struggling that much to do the class all the time (or at least enough that you'd actually anticipate not being able to do the first part that you'd use that as an excuse to become an exclusive couple), then it must be blooming hard, and I can't see many (any) of the people in the class actually getting it, so I can quite understand why you'd maybe want to become exclusive. (I guess that kinda isn't the actual reason why though, and there's a compliment in there somewhere!!).

Trampy

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 03:12 PM
Sorry if I was unclear on this, I meant that it would be spurious to try to create some kind of mathematical formula (even if I could :tears: ). I'm certainly not going to offer myself as an expert on where it would be acceptable to draw the line. I think most dancers are pretty good at responding to this kind of situation.
So you don't think that there'd be a need for my (great) idea of a rota of exclusivity??? :D

:hug:

:yum: <-- it's sort of in my cheek :na:

Trampy

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 03:17 PM
However, taking Andy's example to the extreme (who, me?). You could have every man in the class taken off to be a fixed couple, and that'd leave 9 women there with no-one to dance with. I guess no-one would want to be one of those 9 spare ladies. Maybe it's worth just considering how you'd feel in that situation?

I have to say, all this business of taking examples to their extreme, and basing any kind of argument on the consequences of that extreme, is quite specious.

The extreme is not the reality - which is that for the most part, it works quite well on a Wednesday.

The product is different. It is not based, except loosely, on a Ceroc night model. It is difficult.

Yet despite all this it is popular.

More so, incidentally, and with no implication of disrespect to the great man himself, than when Viktor was teaching at Hipsters.

I put this down simply to there being a market for the new product which undoubtedly draws people in. Maybe there are lessons for other organisations to learn. Maybe they're learning them, as well. Didn't someone say recently that the Advanced Class at Fulham was fixed partner?

Chris

Jayne
30th-July-2004, 03:21 PM
Urrr ... think thats a sweeping generalisation. I was talking about the 'Ceorc' model. Within that model a number of clubs, mainly non-Ceroc have been teaching advanced classes for some time. Even in my days at Ceroc Nantwich we were teaching 'unofficial' advanced lessons because we recognised the need for them. Blitz has had advanced lessons for a number of years. I don't want to get into the argument of whether Hipsters is MORE advanced
Absolutely it was a sweeping generalisation. I wanted to get the point across that there were differences in the requirements of customers at different standards of dancing. Explaining that ceroc club x does this advanced class whilst blitz club y does this detracts from point. I know that ceroc does teach advanced classes, as mentioned in my initial post. Likewise, I do not wish to get into a pointless debate of which club is "better" than another club. This merely takes away from my point that different people have different requirements.


if you are going to dance 'advanced moves/style' on the dancefloor with dancers who aren't your regular partner ... shouldnt you learn how to do the moves without your regular partner in the first place? Jut a thought :wink:
In an ideal world, yes. And when you show me a freestyle where the majority of men do many advanced moves I will be more than happy to do an advanced class in rotation. Sadly, a large proportion of men do 20 beginner moves and maybe a dozen intermediate moves in their standard repertoire. Learning an advanced class with a fixed partner enables my partner and I to actually learn advanced moves, which can be used in freestyle later.

The counter argument I can hear coming is that if there were more people in rotation then more men would learn more advanced moves. However, the number of women is usually greater than the number of men - which means that the men dance throughout the class. They should therefore be able to lead the ladies into advanced moves, irrespective of how many excess ladies there are in respect to the size of the class.

Furthermore, I can hear people telling their computer that they do advanced moves. I was only talking about "a large proportion", not all dancers.

J :flower:

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 03:24 PM
I have to say, all this business of taking examples to their extreme, and basing any kind of argument on the consequences of that extreme, is quite specious.

The extreme is not the reality - which is that for the most part, it works quite well on a Wednesday.
Ummm.... I disagree with your premise. Taking any example to the extreme, and seeing where you end up, is quite often vital. My limited mathematics (sorry Divi) suggests that this is what happens in any integration principle, and a lot of mathematical modelling (which has a lot of impact in the real world) is based on this principle (David F will no doubt come on now and tell me how wrong this is).

When I last came to Hipsters (some time ago - prior to Amir taking over the teaching), this situation with almost half the class being exclusive was not the case. Hence, someone 'started' doing it. And other people followed. And now, almost the majority (one more than half) of people are doing it. Can you really predict where it will all stop? Hence, in theory, it might well reach the 'extreme' point - although, Divi assures us that this won't be the case, since some of the people (I still like my idea of an exclusivity rota) will take the plunge, and move back into the rotation.

(Wheeee. I'm having fun today :devil: ) :hug:

Trampy

PS. Incidentally, the theory that it works well on a Wednesday seems also to be fallacious. We've already heard in this thread that at least one person didn't like it enough to stop coming. It just seems to work well for you (and others, not everyone)

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 03:26 PM
Furthermore, I can hear people telling their computer that they do advanced moves.
I don't. I'm just a beginner.... :clap:

Trampy

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 03:26 PM
Of course, we're all glad that you carried one dancing Jayne :flower: Though, you'll probably never dance with me again :tears:

Ahem... she'd probably be safer if she didn't :devil:

Chris

Jayne
30th-July-2004, 03:28 PM
Of course, we're all glad that you carried one dancing Jayne :flower:
Thanks, Trampy. :flower:


Though, you'll probably never dance with me again :tears:
The split lip has healed now, so I guess I'm ready for the second round. :what:

J :wink:

under par
30th-July-2004, 03:29 PM
When I last came to Hipsters (some time ago - prior to Amir taking over the teaching), this situation with almost half the class being exclusive was not the case. Hence, someone 'started' doing it. And other people followed. And now, almost the majority (one more than half) of people are doing it. (Wheeee. I'm having fun today :devil: ) :hug:

Trampy

To clarify a point... this only occurs a lot on the Wednesday night with Amirs three lessons ........................................... not the Tuesday when Roger does first lesson and Nigel the second or on the Phat friday.

And to Amirs credit he has increased the wednesday numbers.

David Franklin
30th-July-2004, 03:31 PM
Hiya David. Nice of you to join in the discussion!! :flower:

Have to say that if someone with your experience is struggling that much to do the class all the time (or at least enough that you'd actually anticipate not being able to do the first part that you'd use that as an excuse to become an exclusive couple), then it must be blooming hard, and I can't see many (any) of the people in the class actually getting it, so I can quite understand why you'd maybe want to become exclusive. (I guess that kinda isn't the actual reason why though, and there's a compliment in there somewhere!!).Actually, outside of workshops, I do rotate (other than if I've missed half the class - not fair to inflict that on the other dancers). But I've definitely encountered both those situations in both classes and non-rotating workshops, and it's a lot less stressful in the latter case. I can totally understand a couple who really want to get the most out of a difficult class not rotating.

And in fact, Amir's classes really are that hard. Amir himself says that when you start his classes, if you "get" 25% (i.e. 1 move) from the class, you're doing well. The problem is, that if rotating, probablility says you will both get the move together only 1 time in 16!

Dave

Franck
30th-July-2004, 03:33 PM
I have to say, all this business of taking examples to their extreme, and basing any kind of argument on the consequences of that extreme, is quite specious.

The extreme is not the reality - which is that for the most part, it works quite well on a Wednesday.Sorry Chris, but most of the argument stemmed from the fact that the extreme (19 couples opting out) was reality... I expect that one or two couples opting out might be (initially) given the benefit of the doubt, but when extremes become trends, they threaten other classes around.

There are no issues with any class / teacher advertising a class (advanced or otherwise) as being non-rotational and as long as you had to book with a partner or were allocated one on the night / day, everything would be fine.
It seems however that this is not the case and while some of you are lucky enough to have a regular dance partner that you wish to practise with, what you are asking is for a 'cheap' form of private tuition...
I just checked the Hipsters website and it seems to target Intermediate / advanced modernjivers, which by implication (and with no statement to the contrary anywhere) means that rotation will be expected (as all modern jive classes use the rotation system) and is indeed in operation (for half the class anyway)
VIBE NIGHT with AMIR
ADVANCED MODERN JIVE 8pm-11:30pm

Hipsters Wednesday are aimed at intermediate/advanced modern jiversI would also question the assumption that you would learn better (even in an Advanced class) with a fixed partner... As a few people have mentioned you're more likely to pick up bad habits, how will you know for sure that you are 'leading' a move if you're partner is so used to your style... Is the real acid test that you can work out / lead / dance a move with most people?

philsmove
30th-July-2004, 03:35 PM
With 44 posts in under 3 hours Emma has clearly hit a touchy subject

Frank you say


I personally get irritated, as a teacher, when one or two couples opt out of the rotation

But would you be prepared to turn away customers who do this?

The trend NOT to rotate seems to be on the increase

And if it continued we could see the end of “no need to bring a partner “

The fact I did not need a partner is what attracted me to MJ and it still does

Moving round has the slight disadvantage I may have to dace with someone who was as bad as me when I started

But the great advantage I get a chance to dance with people like Elaine


Classes that allow people to stay in couples should not pretend there is no need to bring a partner

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 03:40 PM
When I last came to Hipsters (some time ago - prior to Amir taking over the teaching), this situation with almost half the class being exclusive was not the case. Hence, someone 'started' doing it. And other people followed. And now, almost the majority (one more than half) of people are doing it. Can you really predict where it will all stop? Hence, in theory, it might well reach the 'extreme' point

I'm not trying to predict where it'll stop. Maybe it will continue evolving as it has been (though the rate of change is much lower now).

But even if it does reach the extreme point, it comes back to the fact that the product is not Ceroc. It isn't promoting fun, frolics and social interaction on a Wednesday any more, though all that still happens. Maybe there's a market for a weekly non-rotating class, I don't know. I'd quite like it (just as I like the other products I buy at other times), others wouldn't.

So what? It would stand or fall on whether it was popular enough to be sustainable.



PS. Incidentally, the theory that it works well on a Wednesday seems also to be fallacious. We've already heard in this thread that at least one person didn't like it enough to stop coming. It just seems to work well for you (and others, not everyone)
I refer the honourable gentleman to the fact that the numbers have gone up, not down, since the format changed.

If one person has stopped coming, that's their choice. Others must have started if the numbers have gone up.

I'm all for variety. When I stop liking a product I'll stop buying it.

Chris

Jayne
30th-July-2004, 03:44 PM
PS. Incidentally, the theory that it works well on a Wednesday seems also to be fallacious. We've already heard in this thread that at least one person didn't like it enough to stop coming. It just seems to work well for you (and others, not everyone)
Can anyone else spot the lawyer in training?

There are probably about 50 people who regularly attend Amir's class - i.e. they come back week after week.

One person said that they didn't like it.

Whilst arguments and counter arguments can be made with stats, I think the numbers here can speak for themselves and don't need to be "reinterpreted" by anyone.

Sorry Trampy. :flower:


Sorry Chris, but most of the argument stemmed from the fact that the extreme (19 couples opting out) was reality...
Sorry Franck, but Chris speaks as a Hipsters regular and is therefore aware of how many couples rotate and how many don't. I don't remember seeing you at Hipsters recently. :flower:

J :nice:

Will
30th-July-2004, 03:44 PM
If I attend a class I'm likely to want to rotate if I'm there to socialise, and likely to want to stay in fixed partners if I want to improve my dancing. Trampy, Divissima is right, it is a lot easier to learn a difficult move if you just stick with your regular partner than if you rotate. I hope you never realise this though as if you do there is a severe danger you might start winning competitions and that would never do! :really:

The more advanced the class is, the more fixed couples you're gonna get. That is probably why you get alot of fixed couples at Hipsters. We have lots of fixed couples in our class when Kate & I teach advanced classes, and I don't have a problem with that if that's what people want to do.

Either way, I think if you pay your money on the door, you are neither the property of the organiser or the other dancers, so it's entirely upto you when and who you dance with. Pays to be nice though and consider other peoples feelings. :flower:

Simon r
30th-July-2004, 03:44 PM
Lets put this into context the proportion of people that do not rotate is very small and there is a place for both agreed it could be seen as off puting for others but i dont think a lot of people really care.

Those that do partner off do so as there own choice because they feel they learn better that way for more complicated moves .
I have seen many begginer couples start this way giving each other moral support.
I agree with most points raised but i dont think we will see a huge increase and the end of jive as we know it ( get real)....
Just my two penny worth :whistle:

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 03:48 PM
Sorry Chris, but most of the argument stemmed from the fact that the extreme (19 couples opting out) was reality... I expect that one or two couples opting out might be (initially) given the benefit of the doubt, but when extremes become trends, they threaten other classes around.

No. The extreme would be if all of them opted out. At the moment it's about half and half. Which only means in fact that a different half of the people there are unhappy with the way things are, than if everyone rotated. :rofl: :rofl:

As for threatening other classes around, this IMHO is tosh. Heavens, it's bad enough people complaining about whether it's right or wrong even within Hipsters - now the level of paranoia is such that it's now others' problem as well?

Heavens above :rolleyes: . All you have to do if you're worried is stipulate that people rotate. And then live and let live. :flower:



As a few people have mentioned you're more likely to pick up bad habits, how will you know for sure that you are 'leading' a move if you're partner is so used to your style... Is the real acid test that you can work out / lead / dance a move with most people?
Absolutely true, Franck.

I won't know for sure as you say, until I dance it with others.

I would be most grateful if the lovely ladies I dance with week after week would tell me immediately if they think my dancing is getting worse :flower: :D

Chris

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 03:49 PM
I'm not trying to predict where it'll stop. Maybe it will continue evolving as it has been (though the rate of change is much lower now).

But even if it does reach the extreme point, it comes back to the fact that the product is not Ceroc. It isn't promoting fun, frolics and social interaction on a Wednesday any more, though all that still happens. Maybe there's a market for a weekly non-rotating class, I don't know. I'd quite like it (just as I like the other products I buy at other times), others wouldn't.

So what? It would stand or fall on whether it was popular enough to be sustainable.

Ummm. Yeah. But then, maybe it needs to be advertised as such, and made clear that this was how it would be??

I'd be interested in hearing what Amir thinks of the whole matter. I agree with Franck that I, as a teacher, would not like to see the class go in this direction, as it's bound to negatively impact on the enjoyment of some people - in this case, the ladies who in Andy's example, got 1.5 goes, before they sat off, rather than the 4 goes they would have got if everyone had been rotating. And since the class isn't advertised this way, it doesn't really seem fair on them. Though, as I have said before (in this thread, and in a number of others), I don't like the idea of people feeling that they HAVE to behave in a certain way, when they are paying their own money for their night out.

Incidentally, whether it's Ceroc or not is a moot point. At least, in the arguements I've been making. I'm looking upon it as the Hipsters model, and haven't referenced in anything to do with Ceroc at all (though, others have).

I refer the honourable gentleman to the fact that the numbers have gone up, not down, since the format changed.

If one person has stopped coming, that's their choice. Others must have started if the numbers have gone up.
Not denying that at all.

Just merely pointing out that (at least) one person has been put off coming because of the situation as described.

Maybe, without the need for exclusive couples at the back of the room, it would have grown more??

Trampy

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 03:51 PM
but i dont think we will see a huge increase and the end of jive as we know it ( get real)....
Careful Simon, we're in danger of agreeing here... :rofl:

Chris

David Franklin
30th-July-2004, 03:52 PM
Ummm.... I disagree with your premise. Taking any example to the extreme, and seeing where you end up, is quite often vital. My limited mathematics (sorry Divi) suggests that this is what happens in any integration principle, and a lot of mathematical modelling (which has a lot of impact in the real world) is based on this principle (David F will no doubt come on now and tell me how wrong this is).Actually, in this case I think I'd agree with you - because I think in practice the worse the imbalance, the bigger the temptation not to rotate because
(a) it's going to be really disappointing sitting out over half the time.
(b) it's not going to help much if only I rotate.

I think Hipsters is a very particular case, because Amir's classes aren't just more "difficult"; they are sufficiently different from a standard MJ class as to be almost a different style of dance altogether. (N.B. no judgement about whether it's better implied... :wink: ) Imagine what it would be like in a Salsa intermediate class if half the people had never done Salsa before. I think pretty quickly you'd see the same phenomenon. [I accept a teacher taking a strong stand on the issue could prevent it - if Amir doesn't like the large number of fixed couples it is probably up to him to do say something].

Dave

Franck
30th-July-2004, 03:52 PM
But would you be prepared to turn away customers who do this?

The trend NOT to rotate seems to be on the increase

And if it continued we could see the end of “no need to bring a partner “Well yes and no :nice:
Ultimately, I think I would.
If 19 couples were opting out, I would first wonder why? There is a culture of 'Advanced elitism' that needs to be in place prior to that kind of numbers happening.
As ChrisA says, maybe the new Hipsters is trying to create an elite team of dancers and they need the extra work in couples.
The above flies in the face of everything I believe with regards to Ceroc, Modern Jive and dancing... My views on elitism and 'Advanced' as a form of natural selection are widely known and posted on previous threads (some about Hipsters, some not).
Maybe there is a market for it but as Adam posted recently, the culture created by this market is insidiously poisonous to other classes :sad:

So if more than one or two couples did this in my classes, I would probably put a record on, step off the stage, and politely ask them to join in the rotation (giving them a chance to justify their opting out) and point out to them what was expected.
Most people would probably apologize and join in, or give up on my classes as a result. This would be just fine by me.

Classes that allow people to stay in couples should not pretend there is no need to bring a partnerI totally agree with that :D

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 03:53 PM
Can anyone else spot the lawyer in training?

There are probably about 50 people who regularly attend Amir's class - i.e. they come back week after week.

One person said that they didn't like it.

Thanks Jayne. I'll take that as a compliment....

Please see my response to Chris in another post. 50 people regularly attend Amir's class. Maybe, if it was a little less exclusive, there would be 75. Or 100. Or 150. Who knows. But the numbers aren't as clear-cut as you make out....

Trampy

MartinHarper
30th-July-2004, 03:55 PM
Perhaps rather than people going for fixed partners, there could be fixed groups of two guys and three girls? That would solve Chris's problem of his learning being disrupted by latecomers, without having women with fixed partners getting unfair access to the men.

Andy McGregor
30th-July-2004, 04:01 PM
The extreme is not the reality - which is that for the most part, it works quite well on a Wednesday.

I would say that reality is getting closer and closer to the extreme. Being in the lesson only half the time is, IMHO, quite extreme :tears.

And, it might work "quite well" on a Wednesday if you're one half of a fixed-couple. But it you're a woman waiting on the side for half of a complex lesson I think that "works quite well" isn't the first comment to cross your mind. "Where else can I go where there's more men in the lesson?" might be closer to it.

And, if you're the husband of one of those women, "works quite well" isn't the description I'd use. For me, the fixed couples fest we have at Hipsters has affected my attendance and enjoyment of the night. I used to be a Wednesday regular and now I'm not :tears:

And, what is most upsetting is Amir's lesson is the best MJ lesson by miles. Maybe I'll start coming on my own and being part of a fixed couple - hey Zebra woman, what do you think? :devil:

..works quite well :huh: :mad:

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 04:01 PM
If I attend a class I'm likely to want to rotate if I'm there to socialise, and likely to want to stay in fixed partners if I want to improve my dancing.
Ah. So you've obviously never stayed in fixed partners then!! :devil: :hug:


Trampy, Divissima is right, it is a lot easier to learn a difficult move if you just stick with your regular partner than if you rotate. I hope you never realise this though as if you do there is a severe danger you might start winning competitions and that would never do! :really:
I prefer to have fun rather more than I prefer winning competitions. If I ever found myself not having fun in order to win a competition, then I'd stop competing immediately (though both is good!). I seriously doubt that any of the people in this thread would have any problems in picking up any of the moves while in a rotational class (that's a compliment btw). And there's nothing to stop said people getting together after the class to work on the move.

Either way, I think if you pay your money on the door, you are neither the property of the organiser or the other dancers, so it's entirely upto you when and who you dance with.
I said this right back at the beginning of the thread. And several other times in other threads too....

However,

Pays to be nice though and consider other peoples feelings. :flower:
I totally subscribe to this too.

Trampy

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 04:02 PM
Just merely pointing out that (at least) one person has been put off coming because of the situation as described.

To what end?

I still say so what? That person just doesn't like the product any more - other people do, and the numbers have gone up, so the demand is clearly there.

We're all free to choose the products we like. The more varied the products, the richer the MJ world, surely.

Chris

Franck
30th-July-2004, 04:04 PM
As for threatening other classes around, this IMHO is tosh. Heavens, it's bad enough people complaining about whether it's right or wrong even within Hipsters - now the level of paranoia is such that it's now others' problem as well? This is unfortunately true. First impressions are very important (as recently discussed with the body language / attitude to someone who say they are 'crap' ).
Many people end up visiting Hipsters because they've read about it here or heard someone mentioned it in effusive tones...
The general impression I get, so far, is that to attend the classes on a Wednesday, you either need to be an incredible dancer (or think you are), you need to dedicate every Wednesday religiously (as missing one class might hold back the others) and crucially have your own partner who qualifies for both above points :sad:
In my opinion not a brilliant picture, and one that certainly put me off going next time I'm in London (even though I was hoping to visit as soon as possible). Having read all the above comments, I think I'll stick to one of the other brilliant nights available in London and hope that it is paranoia on my part and that the general trend isn't really going that way :sad:

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 04:06 PM
To what end?
To the end of refuting your point that it works quite well (or whatever it was that you said).

As I said before. It works quite well for you. And for the people who continue coming. It might not work very well at all for 100000's of other people (obvious exaggaration just because I can), who don't continue coming.

You defend what you do, and the night in general, because you like it that way. Which is fair enough. I'd expect no less. I don't come, so I can take a step back and point out possible failings. Which is all I've done. Without getting personal to score cheap points :flower:

Trampy

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 04:06 PM
For me, the fixed couples fest we have at Hipsters has affected my attendance and enjoyment of the night. I used to be a Wednesday regular and now I'm not :tears:

For me the packed hall, and mad inconsiderate dancers fest on Tuesdays has affected my attendance and enjoyment of the night. I used to be a Tuesday regular and now I'm not :tears:

It's just product choice, Andy.

Chris

under par
30th-July-2004, 04:07 PM
Thanks Jayne. I'll take that as a compliment....

Please see my response to Chris in another post. 50 people regularly attend Amir's class. Maybe, if it was a little less exclusive, there would be 75. Or 100. Or 150. Who knows. But the numbers aren't as clear-cut as you make out....

Trampy

This has been a fantastic thread and lots of views expressed but it is just starting to become a little too much pro/con Hipsters/Amir.

Apart from Amirs Wednesday lesson much discussed already I have visited numerous venues , some Ceroc other not.
At most of these evenings there are always 3 -5 couples doing the lessons exclusively. They usually form a separate row on the dance floor not always "at the back " and on a few occasions I have also done so.

this is not an exclusive Hipsters /Amir "problem" if problem is the right word(ask Emma) and discussion would be healthier if the overall picture was discussed instead of focusing mainly on Hipsters/amir

Franck
30th-July-2004, 04:08 PM
Sorry Franck, but Chris speaks as a Hipsters regular and is therefore aware of how many couples rotate and how many don't. I don't remember seeing you at Hipsters recently. :flower:Maybe the view from the back isn't so good then...

I refer you to Andy's post above for confirmation of the numbers, as I didn't make them up to strengthen my case.

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 04:10 PM
For me the packed hall, and mad inconsiderate dancers fest on Tuesdays has affected my attendance and enjoyment of the night. I used to be a Tuesday regular and now I'm not :tears:

It's just product choice, Andy.
Uh huh. And Andy has a right to criticise something that he's not happy about, and has affected his (and Sue's) enjoyment. In fact, I'd rather expect him too.

In the same way as you've complained about the Friday events there, and now the Tuesday events.

What's the problem??

Trampy

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 04:11 PM
To the end of refuting your point that it works quite well (or whatever it was that you said).

Huh?

Steve, what part of "the numbers have gone up since the format change" didn't you understand?

I can't quite see how one person deciding that they don't like it any more, but enough others decide they do, so they start coming and the numbers go up, refutes my point in the least (though you do know what "refute" means, which is rare :flower: ).

If the trend continues to the extreme, I agree, it'll have to be re-advertised, but the rate of change has slowed almost to zero now.

As I said, it's about half and half now. Which means that if rotating was mandated, the same number of people as now would be happy, and the same number unhappy. Just a different half :D

Chris

Will
30th-July-2004, 04:13 PM
I prefer to have fun rather more than I prefer winning competitions.

That's cool, as long as your cool with (and I'm sure you are!) some people turning up on a night prioritising having fun working at improving there dancing rather than having fun socially during the class.

Will

Andy McGregor
30th-July-2004, 04:13 PM
It's just product choice, Andy.

Chris

The difference is that not everyone is in fixed couples on a Wednesday. I stay in the rotation because I feel that it wouldn't be fair if all the guys joined the fixed couples and left even more women at the side.

It isn't the product that's spoiling Wednesdays, the product is fabulous, it's the shortage of men and the excess of women - and this is caused by the fact that fixed couples fill more than half the hall :tears:

Jayne
30th-July-2004, 04:13 PM
Please see my response to Chris in another post. 50 people regularly attend Amir's class. Maybe, if it was a little less exclusive, there would be 75. Or 100. Or 150. Who knows. But the numbers aren't as clear-cut as you make out...
Two things. First, I believe Amir's class has increased in size from the predominantely rotational Tuesday class to the Wednesday class with some fixed partners (my memories from the few times I could face going on a Tuesday are a bit hazy so I'll be corrected if I'm wrong). Second, the former class on a wednesday (ie Viktor's, which was predominantely rotational) saw a serious decline in numbers before its demise.


And, it might work "quite well" on a Wednesday if you're one half of a fixed-couple. But it you're a woman waiting on the side for half of a complex lesson I think that "works quite well" isn't the first comment to cross your mind. "Where else can I go where there's more men in the lesson?" might be closer to it.
As a woman who does both rotation and fixed partner on a wednesday, I feel qulaified on commenting on this. The thought that springs to my mind is "well I can find more men elsewhere - but I'd much rather be *learning* than going through the motions somewhere else".

As we've shown on this forum, MJ is a big thing and there are different products out there for different parts of the market. Long may that continue. I would hate my learning to be stunted because someone else thinks "that behaviour isn't fair".

J :flower:

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 04:14 PM
Uh huh. And Andy has a right to criticise something that he's not happy about, and has affected his (and Sue's) enjoyment. In fact, I'd rather expect him too.

In the same way as you've complained about the Friday events there, and now the Tuesday events.

What's the problem??

TrampyOf course he does. And I have a right to put an opposing view.

Did I say there was a problem?

I see no problem, except in the amount of work I've got done this afternoon. :flower:

Chris

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 04:15 PM
Huh?

Steve, what part of "the numbers have gone up since the format change" didn't you understand?

I understood it perfectly. My point was that maybe they'd have gone up further if it wasn't for an apparent perceived exclusivity.

Which part of that didn't YOU understand?

Trampy

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 04:16 PM
I see no problem, except in the amount of work I've got done this afternoon. :flower:
Good job I didn't have any work to do this afternoon then, isn't it!! :wink: :hug:

Trampy

Simon r
30th-July-2004, 04:18 PM
Play nice boys

MartinHarper
30th-July-2004, 04:19 PM
This discussion reminded me of a story I'd read on SSQQ (http://www.ssqq.com/information/switchpartners.htm). The point was made there that rotation helps beginning dancers get good lead and follow. But here people suggest that for very good dancers, rotation is actually a hindrance. At what point is the crossover?

Trish
30th-July-2004, 04:19 PM
I would say that reality is getting closer and closer to the extreme. Being in the lesson only half the time is, IMHO, quite extreme :tears.

And, it might work "quite well" on a Wednesday if you're one half of a fixed-couple. But it you're a woman waiting on the side for half of a complex lesson I think that "works quite well" isn't the first comment to cross your mind. "Where else can I go where there's more men in the lesson?" might be closer to it.


:yeah:

As one of the unpartnered women, I quite agree! I also find it very sad that on occasions I've seen a class that I'm love to go to advertised as "fixed partners only" and so I feel very excluded :tears: . I guess I could recruit one of the guys I know but most of the ones I like dancing with already have partners! Oh dear, what's a girl to do, my dancing will never improve at this rate! :sad:

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 04:19 PM
Two things. First, I believe Amir's class has increased in size from the predominantely rotational Tuesday class to the Wednesday class with some fixed partners (my memories from the few times I could face going on a Tuesday are a bit hazy so I'll be corrected if I'm wrong). Second, the former class on a wednesday (ie Viktor's, which was predominantely rotational) saw a serious decline in numbers before its demise.
Ah. But as you say, it's a different product now. So that has almost no bearing on the current figures. Without making the class totally non-rotational, and without being able to tell everyone who doesn't come now, because of any perceived exclusivity, that it has changed, you'll never know.

So, any comments on numbers attending shouldn't be allowed into this debate, as there can be no factual evidence of the effect of the situation on numbers. You can say 'numbers have gone up' as often as you like. My response will always be 'Could they have gone up more'!! :D

Trampy

Jayne
30th-July-2004, 04:20 PM
I refer you to Andy's post above for confirmation of the numbers, as I didn't make them up to strengthen my case.


I used to be a Wednesday regular and now I'm not
Your case is "strengthened" by someone who doesn't go???

Pedantic, I know. I also realise that this could be viewed as a personal attack. It's not in tended that way. I have much respect for Franck, ceroc scotland, the forum and fellow forumites. This has been a fab afternoon and I have done not one second of work since lunchtime! Thanks guys - gotta go soon & consume alcohol. :grin:

Don't make too many posts - otherwise I'll be up all night!

J :nice:

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 04:21 PM
This has been a fab afternoon
I've enjoyed it too.

Is there anyone who now doubts that becoming a lawyer was the right career move for me?? :D

Trampy

Jayne
30th-July-2004, 04:22 PM
This discussion reminded me of a story I'd read on SSQQ (http://www.ssqq.com/information/switchpartners.htm). The point was made there that rotation helps beginning dancers get good lead and follow. But here people suggest that for very good dancers, rotation is actually a hindrance. At what point is the crossover?
errrmmm - intermediates?

J :nice:

Sparkles
30th-July-2004, 04:24 PM
OK, I've just read this whole thread and it's taken me bl**dy ages!

I just wanted to add this:
I regularly attend Hipsters on a Tuesday and love every second of it.
I recently tried Hipsters on a Wednesday (I usually go to the Jive Bar, which I love, but thought I'd see what all the fuss was about) and didn't like it at all. I saw that the people there were enjoying themselves, and the teaching was superb, but for me it was too serious, too regimented, too technical and the moves were too difficult to learn on a rotation system basis (IMO). - I say this last part because I thought I was going to end up getting injured by the less experienced dancers (and so I ended up sitting out :( ) and this was mainly because I was dancing with the more inexperienced dancers most of the time due to the fact that most of the more experinced dancers that I knew of were keeping to themselves at the back of the room and weren't joining in with the rotation, and this not only put me off attempting the moves but made me feel slightly intimidated too (sorry guys, but it's true, I love you all really).
As I sat and watched a lesson that I was (in truth) pleased to be out of, I thought about the lesson, the set up, the split of people etc, and I realised that I was feeling most uncomfortable; I'd turned up without a partner in the hope of a relaxed night's dancing and ended up feeling useless, dejected and thoroughly fed up.
Then I tried to put myself into the shoes of the people that were dancing with fixed partners at the back, and I realised that if I had a fixed partner that I wanted to compete with I would actually be enjoying the challenge of the lesson and it would be very useful for improving our dancing!
Anyway, seeing as that isn't the case and I don't have a partner I've not been back to Hipsters on a Wednesday since. Until the freestyle dancing started I had had a thoroughly miserable evening - and it was no-one's fault, it just wasn't for me :flower:

Divissima
30th-July-2004, 04:24 PM
I've enjoyed it too.

Is there anyone who now doubts that becoming a lawyer was the right career move for me?? :D

TrampyAs someone who has been in the profession for nearly six years :eek: :tears: now, I can say with a degree of confidence that you will be right at home... :hug:

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 04:29 PM
As someone who has been in the profession for nearly six years :eek: :tears: now, I can say with a degree of confidence that you will be right at home... :hug:
Thanks Divi :hug: And I love you all really :flower:

Trampy

Andy McGregor
30th-July-2004, 04:32 PM
Your case is "strengthened" by someone who doesn't go???

Hey, the last class I went to on a Wednesday was, I think, July 7th. Just over 3 weeks ago. Have numbers changed so much?

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 04:34 PM
The general impression I get, so far, is that to attend the classes on a Wednesday, you either need to be an incredible dancer (or think you are)

Piffle. None of the people in Amir's lessons are incredible dancers. In fact all the incredible dancers I know don't go to lessons.


you need to dedicate every Wednesday religiously (as missing one class might hold back the others)

Also piffle. The material is a rolling programme and you can dip in or out whenever you like. But obviously if you do it regularly you'll benefit more. No rocket science there.

My point was that turning up half way through the lesson makes it hard for the ones that make the effort to turn up on time.



and crucially have your own partner who qualifies for both above points :sad:

No one is forced to go !! And if you have no partner you'll still be with half the class that are rotating. And you'll probably get to dance with someone in freestyle who learned it better than they otherwise would by not rotating. And you have other Wednesday options too. Sounds like Wednesday's the best night of the week really ;)



In my opinion not a brilliant picture, and one that certainly put me off going next time I'm in London (even though I was hoping to visit as soon as possible). Having read all the above comments, I think I'll stick to one of the other brilliant nights available in London and hope that it is paranoia on my art and that the general trend isn't really going that way :sad:
Fair enough. No danger of being able to criticise on the basis of your own observation then :D

Franck, chill, dude.

It's not like Ceroc. But it's a big and varied world out there. Celebrate the variety, how about it? :cheers:

Chris

Jayne
30th-July-2004, 04:41 PM
Franck: has this been the fastest growing thread on the forum?

J :nice:

under par
30th-July-2004, 04:41 PM
Many people end up visiting Hipsters because they've read about it here or heard someone mentioned it in effusive tones...
The general impression I get, so far, is that to attend the classes on a Wednesday, you either need to be an incredible dancer (or think you are), you need to dedicate every Wednesday religiously (as missing one class might hold back the others) and crucially have your own partner who qualifies for both above points :sad:
In my opinion not a brilliant picture, and one that certainly put me off going next time I'm in London (even though I was hoping to visit as soon as possible). Having read all the above comments, I think I'll stick to one of the other brilliant nights available in London and hope that it is paranoia on my art and that the general trend isn't really going that way :sad:

Franck, having already posted that we should not be focussing totally on one class at Hipsters on Wednesdays earlier on iwould like to say that you keep focusing on this lesson.
You make several assertions in the above quote about the lesson or the persons attending.
I travel from the South coast to attend , I am not an incredible dancer. I try to be dedicated and it is a real stress trying to get to to the class in time for the start.
I find the lesson extremely hard going but it is a challenge. I wish to partake of the challenge. I mostly rotate but sometimes dance exclusively. It is not your four moves beginners followed by four moves intermediate which is the format on offer most other venues. You do not need a fixed partner to do the lessons.

My knowledge of DANCE, my body, and music has in my opinion vastly increased IMHO. having been to these lessons.
These topics have NOT been covered at ANY other venue I have visited.

I am an improver who wants to improve more. I do not dance exclusively at Hipsters.I also dance at Mikey s Brighton, Andy Magregors Shoreham and Victors Hove regularly.

I do not see Hipsters as ELITE just a venue where a lot of good dancing goes on to good music with good teachers.

The lessons of Amir and Roger Chin will not be everybodys cup of tea but I am willing to travel an hour and half each way when my shift work allows because I do enjoy them.
Your paranoia and your negative slant in this topic MAY make you miss out on an excellent evening. TRY NOT TO KNOCK TILL YOU HAVE TRIED IT. :cheers:


But again we digress from Emma's thread which refers to exclusve dancing at lessons everywhere not just at Hipsters on Wednesday! :flower:

Gordon J Pownall
30th-July-2004, 04:43 PM
The above flies in the face of everything I believe with regards to Ceroc, Modern Jive and dancing... My views on elitism and 'Advanced' as a form of natural selection are widely known and posted on previous threads (some about Hipsters, some not).

:yeah:

Ceroc is primarily a social event where people, both individuals and couples, come to dance and to learn to dance. Ceroc has for many years offered a range and diversity of CerocShops, Style classes, Masterclasses etc for people who want to extend their social dancing beyond beginner / intermediate level.

Some of these are 'move around events' and I strongly resist any couple who wishes to stay together on such events to do so.

Some of these are 'please book with a partner' or 'fixed couples only' and advertised as such. Peter Phillips does exactly that at the dance weekenders - Lifts and Drops Beginners / Intermediate - move 'em round however advanced is fixed couples only due to the complexity of moves or closeness or body contact or whatever....

Mikey, bless him, did the same thing with his classes at the weekender thingys'. He said clearly - fixed couples cos it's gonna be close....



Maybe there is a market for it but as Adam posted recently, the culture created by this market is insidiously poisonous to other classes :sad:

Quite right - as with all the above classes, they are clearly advertised and explained however as Ceroc is a 'no need to bring a partner' social event and here, I'm talking about the classes and class nights specifically, (freestyle afterwards is up to the punter).

This is why regular class nights at Ceroc are never that specialist / difficult / 'advanced (whatever that is) that you would either need to stay in a fixed couple.


So if more than one or two couples did this in my classes, I would probably put a record on, step off the stage, and politely ask them to join in the rotation (giving them a chance to justify their opting out) and point out to them what was expected.

:yeah: ..and this is quite justifiable, IMHO.

If you want to learn specialist classes or be a fixed couple, then do so however regular dance night Ceroc classes are not the place to do it - they are not fixed couple classes and are never advertised as such and the point at which more than one or two couples (taking into account the numbers in the class in total) do the 'we wonna be togevver' thing, becomes a problem and either disrupts or has a negative impact uppon the class taking place, I too would intervene.

Personally, I do this as well for beginners and intermediate CerocShops and other workshops where they are 'no need to bring a partner'...and no one has ever left yet.... :wink:

I always ensure that numbers of men and women on 'no need to bring a partner classes' are equal anyway (or where not, recruit the help of a friend / colleague / taxi dancer of the required gender) - they still move around though.

So, for me, couples that exclude themselves from the rotation of a regular dance night / class night are potentially saboteurs to success of the evening especially when you may have 100 people in the class of which 30 - 40% are 'fixed 'we wonna be togevver' couples and then throw in 10 ladies over and new beginners etc, etc, - recipe for disaster. (please don't quote numbers etc - imagine..... :whistle:

Ceroc is a membership organisation and as such, there are certain expectations of being a member of that organisation....I would (humbly) suggest that if attending the classes people attend wholeheartedly.

If you don't want to rotate or particpate in the way in which the evening is run, then come at 9.30pm (or when the class finishes) and pay only for freestyle.......
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

Of course couples could just book the teacher to give private lessons to them or go through the class on an individual basis (for which a fee woudl, of course, be payable.... :whistle:

Rant over - ten out of ten Franck - sage words.......

Andy McGregor
30th-July-2004, 04:44 PM
My point was that turning up half way through the lesson makes it hard for the ones that make the effort to turn up on time.

At last, something I can agree with ChrisA about. I think it's important to get there at the start of a complex lesson - so much so, Sue and I have left at 5.30pm to be certain to get there by the 8pm start.

So, how annoying would that be? Four hours in the car (two and a half hours there and one and a half back) to stand out for half of the lesson because more than half the men are in fixed couples :angry:

Jayne
30th-July-2004, 04:45 PM
My knowledge of DANCE, my body, and music has in my opinion vastly increased IMHO. having been to these lessons.
These topics have NOT been covered at ANY other venue I have visited.
Absolutely! I feel my dancing has improved greatly in the last few months, compared to the preceeding three years.

J :wink:

Gordon J Pownall
30th-July-2004, 04:51 PM
So, how annoying would that be? Four hours in the car (two and a half hours there and one and a half back) to stand out for half of the lesson because more than half the men are in fixed couples :angry:

Andy - wise words again......see my post above and as we agree - have some rep...!!!!! :cheers:

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 04:51 PM
I understood it perfectly. My point was that maybe they'd have gone up further if it wasn't for an apparent perceived exclusivity.

Maybe this is true.

So why is no one criticising Will and Kate's CEROC Advanced classes for allowing fixed partners?

Chris

Andy McGregor
30th-July-2004, 04:52 PM
How about a poll. Here is my proposal.

Is fixed couples in a Modern Jive lesson good or bad?

Good
Makes no difference
Bad

Anyone else got anything to add before someone starts this poll?

under par
30th-July-2004, 04:54 PM
How about a poll. Here is my proposal.

Is fixed couples in a Modern Jive lesson good or bad?

Good
Makes no difference
Bad

Anyone else got anything to add before someone starts this poll?

Lets not make this poll about Hipsters or Amirs great lessons.

I think you will find Emma was not at Hipsters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :hug:

Gordon J Pownall
30th-July-2004, 04:56 PM
How about a poll. Here is my proposal.

Is fixed couples in a Modern Jive lesson good or bad?

Good
Makes no difference
Bad

Anyone else got anything to add before someone starts this poll?

How's about -
It has a negative impact on new to the scene dancers (or doesn't)

I would / wouldn't go to a venue where fixed couples may impact upon my personal enjoyment the regular class being taught

or something like that....

Make it so people can choose one or more options as well so you can include.

I do rotate

I don't rotate - I stay with my partner

I only rotate if my partner isn't there

I don't do classes anyway - what's the fuss...

Please bear in mind htis is related to regular dance nights - beginners and intermediate classes taking place freestyle afterward...not 'advanced or specialist classes'...or is it...?

Will
30th-July-2004, 04:58 PM
How about a poll. Here is my proposal.

Is fixed couples in a Modern Jive lesson good or bad?

Good
Makes no difference
Bad

Anyone else got anything to add before someone starts this poll?

Options look fine to me. Just word it so that it's the "option" of having fixed couples that we are voting on as no-one forces you to be in fixed couples except in close moves or ariels classes.

Will

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 04:59 PM
At last, something I can agree with ChrisA about. I think it's important to get there at the start of a complex lesson - so much so, Sue and I have left at 5.30pm to be certain to get there by the 8pm start.

So, how annoying would that be? Four hours in the car (two and a half hours there and one and a half back) to stand out for half of the lesson because more than half the men are in fixed couples :angry:
Then do it together, silly...

:devil: :devil: :flower: :flower: :flower: :devil: :devil:


Chris (UDA)

Simon r
30th-July-2004, 04:59 PM
So not to focus just on hipsters i have seen a couple of begginers partner up and even though this is not preferable ,i feel it is acceptable as when freestyle tracks came on i made a point of getting them to dance with other members.
Lets be honest this is the case at most venues were one or two do partner up.
I do not think i would single people out for partnering up as no one signs a contract when they become a member and free will and all that..

Divissima
30th-July-2004, 04:59 PM
Can I vote not to have a poll? If only because this thread seems to be doing a particularly good job at showing up the different (and in some cases strongly-held) opinions of forumites on this question. What will it prove - that more people think fixed couples are (to paraphrase and amalgamate two terms used on this thread) 'selfish saboteurs', than people who think it's OK to do a class in a fixed couple? Or the other way around? Or whatever. I'm not sure a poll will add anything at this stage. At least the thread has enunciated in greater detail why people hold their views than a poll would show. Just my opinion :hug:

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 04:59 PM
So why is no one criticising Will and Kate's CEROC Advanced classes for allowing fixed partners?

Well. Emma posted it about a venue that almost certainly wasn't Hipsters.

In the 2nd post, Divi brought up the subject of Amir's classes. And it sort of focused on Hipsters from thereafter - probably because most of the people defending the exclusivity thing do it at Hipsters.

I think that UP is right. We need to remind ourselves that it's not just a Wednesday at Hipsters thing, and happens elsewhere as well. And then start picking on Will for allowing it to happen at his classes. Or for supporting Man City. Or for hundreds of other things!! :devil: :clap: :rolleyes:

Trampy

Gordon J Pownall
30th-July-2004, 05:02 PM
Or for supporting Man City. :devil: :clap: :rolleyes:



Trampy






Oi...!!!!!!

Leave it.........:angry: :angry: :angry:

under par
30th-July-2004, 05:06 PM
Well. Emma posted it about a venue that almost certainly wasn't Hipsters.

In the 2nd post, Divi brought up the subject of Amir's classes. And it sort of focused on Hipsters from thereafter - probably because most of the people defending the exclusivity thing do it at Hipsters.

I think that UP is right. We need to remind ourselves that it's not just a Wednesday at Hipsters thing, and happens elsewhere as well. And then start picking on Will for allowing it to happen at his classes. Or for supporting Man City. Or for hundreds of other things!! :devil: :clap: :rolleyes:

Trampy


Ah so somebody did read my pleading posts....thought my pc was broke :flower:

philsmove
30th-July-2004, 05:09 PM
As one of the unpartnered women, I quite agree! I also find it very sad that on occasions I've seen a class that I'm love to go to advertised as "fixed partners only" and so I feel very excluded . I guess I could recruit one of the guys I know but most of the ones I like dancing with already have partners! Oh dear, what's a girl to do, my dancing will never improve at this rate!

When the Bristol classes run “Partners only” classes they also run a “matching service” for singletons. :hug: It works very well

Dave @Trinity has a male and female e mail list , if there is, say, too many women he sends an e-male

If fact I suspect he emails all the women saying there is a shortage of women

And at the same time emails all the men to say there is a surplus of women. Anyhow at the end of the day he seems to get the numbers to balance

It’s interesting to note that even at “partners’ only” classes quite a few people still elect to rotate

Doesn’t any one do any work on Friday afternoons

Divissima
30th-July-2004, 05:11 PM
Well. Emma posted it about a venue that almost certainly wasn't Hipsters.

In the 2nd post, Divi brought up the subject of Amir's classes. And it sort of focused on Hipsters from thereafter - probably because most of the people defending the exclusivity thing do it at Hipsters.
Trampy

Well, yes I did. But I only mentioned it once :innocent::tears:
I would probably have to count myself as a persistent offender in this category - certainly when attending Amir's classes (which I usually do on a weekly basis), although not usually when I go to ceroc venues (less frequently) where my normal practice is to circulate in the class, if I'm doing the class. But even though Hipsters is my regular venue, I tried to keep the post more general in its application. Maybe not so easy to achieve. Sorry, guys, it wasn't my intention to turn this into another 'Hipsters vs. Ceroc' thread.

under par
30th-July-2004, 05:11 PM
When the Bristol classes run “Partners only” classes they also run a “matching service” for singletons. :hug: It works very well

Dave @Trinity has a male and female e mail list , if there is, say, too many women he sends an e-male




Does he also send "e-female" :rofl:

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 05:13 PM
Can I vote not to have a poll? If only because this thread seems to be doing a particularly good job at showing up the different (and in some cases strongly-held) opinions of forumites on this question. What will it prove - that more people think fixed couples are (to paraphrase and amalgamate two terms used on this thread) 'selfish saboteurs', than people who think it's OK to do a class in a fixed couple? Or the other way around? Or whatever. I'm not sure a poll will add anything at this stage. At least the thread has enunciated in greater detail why people hold their views than a poll would show. Just my opinion :hug:
........ :yeah: What Div said. :hug:

It's a big "it depends" IMHO. Rotation should probably be virtually mandatory in beginners classes (since beginners only ever dancing with one partner is very bad news), strongly encouraged in intermediate classes if the emphasis is on social interaction rather than a heavier learning load, and if the MJ org in question makes a big deal out of "no partner required", optional in some specialist classes (such as Amir's) and prohibited in others (such as Mikey's).

Horses for courses, live and let live IMHO. :flower:

Chris

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 05:15 PM
Sorry, guys, it wasn't my intention to turn this into another 'Hipsters vs. Ceroc' thread.
Div, it wasn't you that did it on your own.

You have no need to apologise. It's been a fab thread, totally trashed my afternoon :tears:

Chris

Divissima
30th-July-2004, 05:22 PM
It's been a fab thread, totally trashed my afternoon :tears:

Chris
Ditto. Now what on earth am I going to put on my timesheet?

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 05:28 PM
Sorry, guys, it wasn't my intention to turn this into another 'Hipsters vs. Ceroc' thread.
I don't know that you did. It certainly wasn't for me. All of my comments have been equally applicable to any venue that has this sort of exclusivity - and it exists at Ceroc venues too, just the same as at Hipsters, and everywhere else (although, maybe to a lesser degree! :na: ) :D

Trampy

Andy McGregor
30th-July-2004, 05:41 PM
Doesn’t any one do any work on Friday afternoons

I was just finishing off my VAT Return before posting it - what better time to have a good moan :wink:

philsmove
30th-July-2004, 06:02 PM
I was just finishing off my VAT Return before posting it

Quick panic -can breath again got another- 30 days :whistle:

Gus
30th-July-2004, 06:24 PM
Interesting thread (understatement of the year)

Looked back to what started it ... it was about rotation at a standard night. Somewhere down the line the thread seems to have got a little confised because Hipster is NOT a standard Ceroc night ... so (IMHO) its comparing apples and pairs. Rotation is intrinsic to standard MJ nights and should be encouraged.

As to the question as to te aching methods, well personally I see that Hipsters is an entirely different product and should be lauded for that. The unofficial view held by Ceroc was that Ceroc intended to target dancers up to 2 years experienece as it was seen as too difficult to address the 'minority' needs of advanced dancers. I dont know that under the new administration whether that aim has changed. Despite the composition of the forum, advanced dancers will alwys comprise of a minority of a club night attendance for a standard MJ club ... thats where products like Hopsters etc. move in to fill that gap. At the end of the day you pays yer money and takes yer choice (as many before have said). The most important thing is that the choice exists! Viva la difference. :grin:

Just remebered .... the way I managed to progress from intermediate was by spending a lot of time working things through with a fixed dance partner ... so I can apprecaite the argument against rotation :blush:

Jive Brummie
30th-July-2004, 07:02 PM
Have to say something but want to keep it short and sweet as soooooo much has already been said.....

my opinion is:

weekly beginners and intermediate class......rotate

weekly 'advanced' class......rotate (it'll be advanced every week and you can only retain so much, don't be selfish....dance with everyone)

special workshop/ lesson.....fixed partners ok, but could still rotate.

james... :flower:

philsmove
30th-July-2004, 07:08 PM
weekly beginners and intermediate class......rotate

weekly 'advanced' class......rotate (it'll be advanced every week and you can only retain so much, don't be selfish....dance with everyone)

special workshop/ lesson.....fixed partners ok, but could still rotate.

james...

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Emma
30th-July-2004, 08:47 PM
BuhlOOODy hell...did I hit a raw nerve??!

I've only skimmed through the avalanche of replies to this thread (will read it properly later) but I'd like to add a few things that have occurred whilst I've skimmed.

Firstly - I'm not talking about Hipsters. It happens at Hipsters too? Big Deal. I can't get there, as it's just too troublesome a journey for me on a week night. I'm faintly irritated that this thread has brought out the old 'isn't Hipsters great/Hipsters isn't that special' brigade yet again. This is a very old and frankly rather dull argument now, I'd love to see it given a rest. I was talking about those plain-old-dull-old aimed-at lowly-old-intermediate-dancers intermediate classes I attend in all sorts of bits of South East London.

Secondly (and more importantly) I completely understand that many people have lots of valid excuses (sorry, reasons ;) ) for staying out of the rotation. In my experience of speaking to people that do it (and that honestly includes virtually no-one from the forum...and you're all delightful saints, I know) people are doing it because 'no-one in the class is going to get it and I'll do better with a fixed partner'. While this may well be true, I just have this Pollyannaish idea that actually, if everyone did the classes the overall standard would be raised and *everyone* would therefore improve....even the poor sods like me who don't have a boyfriend or a regular dance partner to go to the back of the hall with. And yes, of COURSE I am jealous of those who do have. It's why it irritates me so much :wink:

Jayne
30th-July-2004, 08:48 PM
Two things. First, I believe Amir's class has increased in size from the predominantely rotational Tuesday class to the Wednesday class with some fixed partners (my memories from the few times I could face going on a Tuesday are a bit hazy so I'll be corrected if I'm wrong). Second, the former class on a wednesday (ie Viktor's, which was predominantely rotational) saw a serious decline in numbers before its demise.

As a woman who does both rotation and fixed partner on a wednesday, I feel qulaified on commenting on this. The thought that springs to my mind is "well I can find more men elsewhere - but I'd much rather be *learning* than going through the motions somewhere else".

As we've shown on this forum, MJ is a big thing and there are different products out there for different parts of the market. Long may that continue. I would hate my learning to be stunted because someone else thinks "that behaviour isn't fair".

J :flower:
Why did I get (anonymous) negative rep for this post? Maybe the individual might want to enlighten me, either by posting as themselves, as a guest or by PM.

Many thanks
J :nice:

Franck
31st-July-2004, 12:32 AM
Piffle.

/snip/

Also piffle. I wasn't remotely suggesting that Hipsters was at all like that, just expressing what reading posts on this thread made me feel...
I know Amir is a great dancer / teacher, I know that most of the people who attend Hipsters are great, I also know that I would benefit from the classes...
It is just that reading through the general elitism / intolerance expressed here I felt unwelcome :sad:
Having said that, I 'm sure I'd have a great night there, I would take part in the rotation, learn a few new concepts, help out unsuspecting visitors, and generally dance with everyone :D
Easy for me to say though as I'm male, experienced and confident...
As Sparkles pointed out, thing might be different if I were one of the extra 15 women...

Fair enough. No danger of being able to criticise on the basis of your own observation then :D

Franck, chill, dude.

It's not like Ceroc. But it's a big and varied world out there. Celebrate the variety, how about it? :cheers:I am quite chilled and still intend to give Hipsters a go one day... I don't think Hipsters is anything more than a couple of good dancers / teachers trying out new ideas, and still think that going after the 'Advanced' market is a big mistake, but would love to see it in action!
The world is big and varied, and I am all for variety, indeed, I'm responsible for a lot of variety being introduced in Ceroc, but I still think that we must keep our eyes on the ball and stick with the original founding principles... There is no place in my world for 'elitism'

Zuhal
31st-July-2004, 11:33 AM
I wasn't remotely suggesting that Hipsters was at all like that, just expressing what reading posts on this thread made me feel...
IIt is just that reading through the general elitism / intolerance expressed here I felt unwelcome :sad:
Having said that, I 'm sure I'd have a great night there, I would take part in the rotation, learn a few new concepts,
Easy for me to say though as I'm male, and confident...
As Sparkles pointed out, thing might be different if I were one of the extra 15 women...


:yeah:
I never mind attending a new venue as a solitary male but the impression given is that your average intermediate dancer with no partner is not welcome.

Best try it one day. On time, of course. :waycool:

Zuhal

Gus
31st-July-2004, 01:42 PM
I don't think Hipsters is anything more than a couple of good dancers / teachers trying out new ideas, and still think that going after the 'Advanced' market is a big mistake, ......but I still think that we must keep our eyes on the ball and stick with the original founding principles...

Don’t know if I've mis-read this ... but (personal view) is that Ceroc should stick to what it knows best ... and leave the advanced stuff to the organisations and teachers who can put products together to meet that need. The main class format rarely meets the needs of the advanced dancers ... and this isn't an 'elitist' thing. If it was, say, a karate team I wouldn't expect my fighting squad to train with the beginners/coloured belts if they want to improve. For the best to get better they need to train with the best ... I would accept that as an axiom. At the same time, though, the overall club improves by the A team fighters training with the lower grades.

This is precisely the problem we hit in my area ... no single club at the moment has a good enough concentration of 'advanced' dancers to allow them to improve greatly (unlike Hipsters) so we've got an informal 'self-help' group going which will help those involved learn new techniques, experiment with new music etc. this is not the type of thing they can do on a club night.

Andy McGregor
31st-July-2004, 02:34 PM
With regard to fixed couples or rotating with the class I think it's got a lot to do with how self-centred you are. There is a school of thought that says the people sticking with one partner are self-centred because they get the most from the lesson and give nothing to the other dancers in the lesson. And, people say, fixed-couples justify their position by saying they've paid so they can do what they like. Well, with apologies to Emma, Franck, Gordon, Sparkles, Mr Brummie, etc, etc, I SAY YOU ARE WRONG!!!

THAT ISN'T SELF-CENTRED COMPARED TO ME, I AM MUCH MORE SELF-CENTRED THAN THAT!!!

I rotate in the class. I always get the lesson, maybe not as quickly as the fixed couples because I sometimes get a partner that hasn't got it (but probably will by the end of the lesson :clap: ). And, because the teacher watches the class until people get it, I usually get it in the end: if I didn't get the lesson I could always ask the teacher after the class. So, my conclusion is that I get exactly the same as the fixed couples in terms of teaching.

Now here we come to the area where I confess my greater selfisness :blush: I think that if I rotate in the lesson I will encourage future dancers and, in doing that I will have partners for ever, a selfish motive indeed :blush:

My own bahavior contrasts with the fixed-partners-at-the-back who are not being as selfish as me, if everyone did what they did, we'd have nobody new to dance with in a year or two. So, I don't think the fixed-couples are being selfish at all, at least when you compare them to my own selfish behavior :sorry:

Peter
31st-July-2004, 02:47 PM
I never mind attending a new venue as a solitary male but the impression given is that your average intermediate dancer with no partner is not welcome. Best try it one day. On time, of course. Zuhal

You are definitely welcome ...

Unfortunately, I did have to work yesterday so missed all the excitement on this thread. As usual, I found myself agreeing with both sides of the argument.

I have danced fixed at ceroc advanced classes, including Adam's. And there are definite benefits to this.

Largely due to other dance commitments, I have only attended less than 75% of Hipsters Tuesday and Wednesday nights since the format changed. Over the last year I have learnt far more from Amir than from any other teacher, no question (in my mind).

So far this year I have had four dance partners, all of whom live North East of London and rarely attend Hipsters. I have never danced fixed at Hipsters. So I end up learning with the generally less experienced rotating dancers. I usually manage to cope with the entire routine on both nights (although I have more success on Tuesday than Wednesday) and aim to lead the routine at least twice in freestyle the same night, with a fair degree of success. My problems are leading the moves on a subsequent occasion and remembering any of the style points.

Partly as a consequence of the large number of fixed partners at Hipsters, I rarely dance with the fixed partner “hotshots”, including Jayne and Claire. Fortunately, most of the advanced dancers who never attend lessons will dance with me and, although they rarely know all of the moves that were taught in class, they generally enjoy learning them!

In my opinion, the less experienced dancers would benefit if there were fewer fixed couples. I am sure that I would benefit from learning the moves with a higher standard of dancer. But that is not an option for many of us. And I can certainly understand why, faced with this elitism, new people are reluctant to return. Although Viktor’s Wednesday class was not so popular as Amir’s new format, newcomers did return!

under par
31st-July-2004, 05:24 PM
You are definitely welcome ...

Unfortunately, I did have to work yesterday so missed all the excitement on this thread. As usual, I found myself agreeing with both sides of the argument.

I have danced fixed at ceroc advanced classes, including Adam's. And there are definite benefits to this.

Largely due to other dance commitments, I have only attended less than 75% of Hipsters Tuesday and Wednesday nights since the format changed. Over the last year I have learnt far more from Amir than from any other teacher, no question (in my mind).

So far this year I have had four dance partners, all of whom live North East of London and rarely attend Hipsters. I have never danced fixed at Hipsters. So I end up learning with the generally less experienced rotating dancers. I usually manage to cope with the entire routine on both nights (although I have more success on Tuesday than Wednesday) and aim to lead the routine at least twice in freestyle the same night, with a fair degree of success. My problems are leading the moves on a subsequent occasion and remembering any of the style points.

Partly as a consequence of the large number of fixed partners at Hipsters, I rarely dance with the fixed partner “hotshots”, including Jayne and Claire. Fortunately, most of the advanced dancers who never attend lessons will dance with me and, although they rarely know all of the moves that were taught in class, they generally enjoy learning them!

In my opinion, the less experienced dancers would benefit if there were fewer fixed couples. I am sure that I would benefit from learning the moves with a higher standard of dancer. But that is not an option for many of us. And I can certainly understand why, faced with this elitism, new people are reluctant to return. Although Viktor’s Wednesday class was not so popular as Amir’s new format, newcomers did return!

Somehow we are back to discussing Hipsters and Amir again which I keep trying to say is not what the thread is about. The thread starter Emma was on about fixed couples at a classt.

Surely Hipsters has been discussed ad infinitum here and elsewhere and the topic here is fixed couples at any venue.

I reserve the right to dance a particular class with a fixed partner for whatever reason (selfish or not) if I wish to do so as I have paid my entrance fee.
I agree with many posters that it would not be good for most venues to have lots of fixed couples. It would eventually destroy the atmostphere that exists.

I generally do the lesson by rotating with everybody else.

More importantly in my opinion, I try to dance with as many beginners and strangers as possible at a class during freestyle. Which is far more of a priority in my opinion as the rotation method of classes.

I wonder if those who have declared the selfishness of fixed couples affecting beginners coming back to classes are as free with their own time when it comes to getting the beginners up to dance during freestyle.

I see enough beginners sitting around like wallflowers and leaving early at various venues to doubt whether enough regular dancers give that much time to the newbies.

But will this topic generate as much heat as this hipsters sorry.... fixed couples thread I very much doubt it will.

Tiggerbabe
31st-July-2004, 06:59 PM
Somehow we are back to discussing Hipsters and Amir again which I keep trying to say is not what the thread is about. The thread starter Emma was on about fixed couples at a classt.

To be fair, UP, Peter was talking about fixed couples doing the class, and his experience of the same (he mentioned Adam as well as Amir and Viktor) and he made a valid summation of his thoughts at the end of his post IMHO. :hug: :flower:

under par
31st-July-2004, 08:12 PM
To be fair, UP, Peter was talking about fixed couples doing the class, and his experience of the same (he mentioned Adam as well as Amir and Viktor) and he made a valid summation of his thoughts at the end of his post IMHO. :hug: :flower:

Sheena, I put my hands up, slight gaff, in the interest of fairness..I'm sorry PETER. :blush:

Tiggerbabe
31st-July-2004, 08:33 PM
Sheena, I put my hands up
Aw, don't do that :wink: how would I ever reach them to ask you for a dance? :hug: :kiss:

Andy McGregor
31st-July-2004, 08:55 PM
Aw, don't do that :wink: how would I ever reach them to ask you for a dance? :hug: :kiss:

I find that a dig in his solar plexus usually caused him to lower his top half quite effectively :devil:

Tiggerbabe
31st-July-2004, 09:01 PM
I find that a dig in his solar plexus usually caused him to lower his top half quite effectively :devil:
Andy - I'm shocked - you're surely not advocating violence against an officer of the law :wink: :whistle:

Emma
31st-July-2004, 09:08 PM
If it was, say, a karate team I wouldn't expect my fighting squad to train with the beginners/coloured belts if they want to improve. For the best to get better they need to train with the best ... I would accept that as an axiom.
Obvioualy this is totally understandable - but I am not talking about a fighting squad here, or even couples practising before a competition..at which point of COURSE they would want to dedicate some time to working purely on their own dancing. Neither am I talking about people with injuries, or those who extract themsleve because they once in a while feel more comfortable with doing a class with a trusted person. I am talking about a regular group of people (some but not all of whom are non-competitors) who just take themselves up the back. Yes of course they have paid their money and they can take their choice, but if they did it during the beginner's class can you imagine the furore?!...so why is it different for the intermediate class...? Does someone as an intermediate dancer have less of a right to recieve help from those dancers better than themselves? There is much talk on this forum of the importance of 'bringing on' beginners as the 'dancers of the future'. It would appear there is a cut-off point at which one can no longer expect help :devil:


At the same time, though, the overall club improves by the A team fighters training with the lower grades.And THAT is what I think some people are missing. :flower:

Andy McGregor
31st-July-2004, 09:11 PM
Andy - I'm shocked - you're surely not advocating violence against an officer of the law :wink: :whistle:

Only the ones over eight feet tall :devil:

Emma
31st-July-2004, 09:13 PM
Only the ones over eight feet tall :devil:Entirely reasonable approach, I'd say :grin:

Lory
1st-August-2004, 11:04 AM
WOW, I've just read this LONG thread! and boy, it IS long! So I thought I'd add to it! :D

I don't have a fixed partner and enjoy rotating, it's my way of meeting new people and marking their dance cards for later! :o

I have to say, I do find it a bit off putting if I come onto a venue and lot's of the 'good' men have paired off exclusively. I can't help it, it gives me the impression that they don't want to dance with the likes of ME, :tears: even after the class I'd be inclined not to ask them, for fear, if they didn't want to dance with anyone else during the class, why would they want to dance with me during freestyle? :confused:

The case isn't so bad for me at my regular venues, as I know a majority of the people :na: but I can imagine if I went to somewhere like Scotland, where I wasn't familiar with the people, I'd find it REALLY off putting and intimidating. :mad:

Minnie M
1st-August-2004, 11:30 AM
WOW, I've just read this LONG thread! and boy, it IS long! So I thought I'd add to it! :D

I don't have a fixed partner and enjoy rotating, it's my way of meeting new people and marking their dance cards for later! :o

I have to say, I do find it a bit off putting if I come onto a venue and lot's of the 'good' men have paired off exclusively. I can't help it, it gives me the impression that they don't want to dance with the likes of ME, :tears: even after the class I'd be inclined not to ask them, for fear, if they didn't want to dance with anyone else during the class, why would they want to dance with me during freestyle? :confused:

The case isn't so bad for me at my regular venues, as I know a majority of the people :na: but I can imagine if I went to somewhere like Scotland, where I wasn't familiar with the people, I'd find it REALLY off putting and intimidating. :mad:

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Thank you Lory - wanted to add my comments but you have said everything I would have said myself - can't give you rep points gotta wait :tears:

Amir
1st-August-2004, 02:13 PM
Being a fixed couple is totally selfish. It means you take yourself out of the class to focus entirely on your own dancing, technique, form and understanding, with just one other person you already know.

But being selfish every now and then isn’t such a bad thing is it? Most people indulge themselves in some ways sometimes. Its probably quite healthy, as long as its balanced out with other kinds of behavior! Anyway, how a class is run should be up to the teacher or organization, I think. There are good and bad things about rotating and good and bad thing about fixed partners. There’s not one best way to run a class that I know of.

I think many fixed couples would stop coming to classes if they were forced to rotate. I would rather they keep coming and learning more.

One last quick observation; the fixed partners I know are often the same people who end up taxi dancing, demonstrating, teaching, djing, helping organize events, writing posts on the forum, competing, inspiring others and generally contributing to the jive scene in a myriad of other ways! This occasional selfish focus on their own dancing progress doesn’t mean they aren’t giving a lot back in other areas!

Andy McGregor
2nd-August-2004, 12:23 AM
Amir is, as usual, absolutely right; in the short term, at least, and who knows what tomorrow will bring, not me, that's for sure.

Here is one thing to consider; put yourself in the position of a woman who's preparing to go out dancing on a given weeknight. She has a number of places to go: having been once to a particular class she knows that over half the men at that class will choose to stay in fixed partners for a difficult lesson, and that those men will probably be the most experienced dancers. She also knows from experience that there will be so few men and so many women over that she will only have a partner for about half of the lesson.

Where will she go?

Gary
2nd-August-2004, 01:04 AM
Being a fixed couple is totally selfish. It means you take yourself out of the class to focus entirely on your own dancing, technique, form and understanding, with just one other person you already know.

But being selfish every now and then isn’t such a bad thing is it?
:yeah:

I'll drop out of rotation very occasionally for an advanced class, but I don't kid myself that it isn't selfish.

philsmove
2nd-August-2004, 08:35 AM
Put yourself in the position of a woman
And what about us men

A simple plea if “fixing” is allowed or normal, let us know in advance, don't tell us "no partner required"

I normally go to classes on my own, but if I know the better dancers are going “to fix”

I will arrange to go with a partner


But being selfish every now and then isn’t such a bad thing is it?
Selfish (Self"ish) (?), a.

1. Caring supremely or unduly for one's self; regarding one's own comfort, advantage, etc., in disregard, or at the expense, of those of others.

Amir I think you mean “self indulgent” and no there is nothing wrong with that every now and then

Gary
2nd-August-2004, 08:40 AM
Selfish (Self"ish) (?), a.

1. [...] regarding one's own [..] advantage, etc., [...] at the expense, of those of others.

Amir I think you mean “self indulgent” and no there is nothing wrong with that every now and then
I think that the above definition fits quite well the "drop out of rotation and pair off" behaviour, and as you, Amir and myself all agree, sometimes it's OK.

ChrisA
2nd-August-2004, 08:53 AM
Here is one thing to consider; put yourself in the
position of a woman who's preparing to go out dancing on a given weeknight.

Where will she go?

Well, this is the same point as you've been making all the way through, Andy. And the answer's the same - it depends.

It depends on:

- whether she thinks the class is still going to be worth it for her
- whether the freestyle dancing she gets is going to be good enough later on.
- whether her mates will be there
- whether the location is convenient
- etc, etc, blah, blah

Maybe there might also be an advantage in dancing with some of the guys who are slightly more selfish... if one of the ones that did the class in a fixed couple asks her to dance later on, is it possible she might feel that he really wants to dance with her....

.... more so, just maybe, than someone whose declared way of choosing a partner is just to pick the closest one with whom he hasn't yet danced?

Just a thought :devil: :whistle: :innocent:

Chris

Tiggerbabe
2nd-August-2004, 09:02 AM
is it possible she might feel that he really wants to dance with her....

If a guy asks me to dance then, funnily enough, I always think that it's because he really wants to .........
Unless, of course, it's Clayton and Franck made him do it!!!!! :grin: :hug: :D

Tiggerbabe
2nd-August-2004, 09:13 AM
and, before anyone takes that the wrong way - I had two fabulous dances with Clayton, (he asked for another after the first one :D ) he smiled throughout and never made me think for one second that he didn't really want to dance with me.
Ask Paul F :blush: I was floating on air for ages afterwards :wink:

under par
2nd-August-2004, 09:16 AM
and, before anyone takes that the wrong way - :wink:
As IF anybody would................... :hug: :rofl:

Andy McGregor
2nd-August-2004, 09:45 AM
.... more so, just maybe, than someone whose declared way of choosing a partner is just to pick the closest one with whom he hasn't yet danced?

Just a thought :devil: :whistle: :innocent:

Chris

There's something wrong with this?

This is, of course, part of my being self-centred. I want to have partners for the future. Dancing in fixed couples in the lesson and being fussy about who you dance with in the freestyle is far less likely to encourage new dancers so it is less selfish...

Trish
2nd-August-2004, 10:18 AM
Secondly (and more importantly) I completely understand that many people have lots of valid excuses (sorry, reasons ;) ) for staying out of the rotation. In my experience of speaking to people that do it (and that honestly includes virtually no-one from the forum...and you're all delightful saints, I know) people are doing it because 'no-one in the class is going to get it and I'll do better with a fixed partner'. While this may well be true, I just have this Pollyannaish idea that actually, if everyone did the classes the overall standard would be raised and *everyone* would therefore improve....even the poor sods like me who don't have a boyfriend or a regular dance partner to go to the back of the hall with. And yes, of COURSE I am jealous of those who do have. It's why it irritates me so much :wink:

:yeah:

Absolutely! I feel exactly the same way!!!

TheTramp
2nd-August-2004, 11:31 AM
But being selfish every now and then isn’t such a bad thing is it? Most people indulge themselves in some ways sometimes.
Ah. You mean most weeks they do join in the rotation. It's just every now and then they are doing the exclusive thing at the back of the hall??

Or, did you mean that said people will join in the rotation at other classes, and not do the exclusive thing at the back of the hall at other classes.

Or did you mean that generally these people are selfless and giving at all other times when they are dancing, going up to people who are beginners, and asking them to dance, making them feel good, and enhancing their evenings like that. Or picking on people who've been sitting down for ages, probably too shy to ask people to dance, but would love to be asked.

Or did you mean that they are so philanthropic in the rest of their every day lives that "every now and again" is just whenever they come dancing, and it's fine to be exclusive at the back of the hall, and then just dance in their own group when the freestyle starts.

Just wondering :devil: :whistle: :flower: :wink:

Trampy

ChrisA
2nd-August-2004, 11:35 AM
{blah, blah, blah snipped}
Just wondering :devil: :whistle: :flower: :wink:

Still no work to do this week, then, Trampy?

:devil:

Chris

TheTramp
2nd-August-2004, 11:38 AM
Still no work to do this week, then, Trampy?

:devil:
Of course not. I'm a student. I'm in the middle of 3.5 months holiday. Only another 6 weeks to go though....

Anyhow, when I read what Amir had to say, I just had to ask for clarification, on what he thought was an acceptable amount of selfishness. Since it's ok to be selfish sometimes. Allegedly :D

You don't have any to do either then?? :na:

Trampy

ChrisA
2nd-August-2004, 11:46 AM
Anyhow, when I read what Amir had to say, I just had to ask for clarification, on what he thought was an acceptable amount of selfishness.
Only a lawyer (student or otherwise) would need a clarification of that post.

Chris

Dreadful Scathe
2nd-August-2004, 11:48 AM
Gah! It took me ages to read this and its rubbish :).

Emma moaned about fixed partners wek in/out at her venue but allows for occasional fixedpartnerness. Divi answered saying she was guilty of this horrendous behaviour at hipsters but not at Ceroc. Under Par also says he doesn't stay as a fixed partner at Ceroc except on the odd occasion. Then people start flinging themselves on the 'hipsters' bandwagon at the expense of readers ability to care what the thread was about anymore. Plagues off locusts later and we're back the lovely Emma stating 'I never mentioned bloody hipsters you fools' !

Anyway, I agree with all of you :). Ceroc is a no-partner needed dance night, fixed partners should be taken out and shot. Unless they have a good reason - like the time I was learning to follow and chose not to inflict myself on all the men in the class :). Hipsters, Workshops and other classes should be taken on their own merits. I would normally be happy to rotate in all classes but this last week at Beach Boogie I stayed with my partner for all Amirs classes mainly because Ive not danced much recently and theres the Scottish Competition in 2 weeks time. Is that a good excuse? As far as Hipsters is concerned you can see from Amirs reply what his thoughts are, and as the teacher he may have something to say if one week its ALL fixed partners except for 3 woman who turn up with no one to dance with - he'll handle that when the times comes. The balance at Hipsters at the moment must be about right i.e. as many complaints and compliments :)

I'd agree with Amirs sentiments on people 'giving something back' the people at the back are usually all nice and will be happy to freestyle with you later, or they taxi dance or they love kittens ;) - assume the best of people at all times even if at one time you have been dissapointed :).

this URL posted earlier sums it up very well, so read it if you havent already...

http://www.ssqq.com/information/switchpartners.htm

Dreadful Scathe
2nd-August-2004, 11:51 AM
Also...Trampy you're warbling more than usual ....write us a novel or something

:)

Once upon a time in a beginners dance lesson....

Jayne
2nd-August-2004, 11:55 AM
Maybe its just a North/South thing ..... we're a friendlier bunch up North :devil:
A forumite told me on Saturday that at Beach Boogie it was just the Scots who were doing the harder classes (ie Amir's) in fixed partners.

I was told the rest of the class were rotating.

J

Dreadful Scathe
2nd-August-2004, 12:02 PM
Out of 8 or so fixed couples out of a room full, 6 or so were Scots - all of whom are entering something in the Scottish Champs in 2 weeks. The reason Amir commented on it in class is because we told him why we were fixed couples.

Ignore Gus' insinuation that Southerners aren't friendly ;)

TheTramp
2nd-August-2004, 12:16 PM
Is there anyone who now doubts that becoming a lawyer was the right career move for me?? :D


As someone who has been in the profession for nearly six years :eek: :tears: now, I can say with a degree of confidence that you will be right at home... :hug:
I'm still trying to work out btw, whether this is a compliment or not!! :whistle: :clap: (possibly :tears: )

Trampy

Gus
2nd-August-2004, 12:24 PM
fixed partners should be taken out and shot.

And I thought I was the unsubtle, rather direct, one :whistle:




Ignore Gus' insinuation that Southerners aren't friendly

WHO said that thos poor souls doomed to live in empty existence within the confines of the M25 were unfriendly???? Not I sir. I merely said that Northerners were MORE friendly :grin: Mind you ... I wasnt talking about all these Scots hanging around at the backs of clasess at BB taking competitions FAAAR too seriously :devil: :devil: :wink:

Dreadful Scathe
2nd-August-2004, 12:29 PM
You suck DS

I have been deeply affected by your insensitive post, having not spotted the tongue-in-cheek tone that was obvious to everyone else, and I'm going to have to ask you to step outside! :)

Emma
2nd-August-2004, 12:34 PM
I have been deeply affected by your insensitive post, having not spotted the tongue-in-cheek tone that was obvious to everyone else, and I'm going to have to ask you to step outside! :):rofl: It's good to have you back, Scathe :hug:

Gus
2nd-August-2004, 12:56 PM
I....and I'm going to have to ask you to step outside! :)

I take it you will now proceed to ask me if I've now spilt your pint, am I looking at your 'bird' in a funny way etc. etc. :sick: :sick:

As Emma said, welcome Sir ... things have been far too sensible in your absence. :waycool:

ANYWAY .... will we be able to spot the Scotland Six when they come to compete? Will points be deducted for taking things far too seriously ... and will you all have to compete in the Open because of your unfair edge? :whistle:

Andy McGregor
2nd-August-2004, 01:28 PM
Hey DS, where were you when we needed you last Friday? We had nobody to gently take us off-topic. So much so this thread grew and grew, people had even resorted to saying what they really think :eek:

Welcome back. We have, of course, kidnapped all agents of Smurf - who were easy to spot at Hipsters as they were the only ones rotating in the lesson :devil:

Banana Man
2nd-August-2004, 02:34 PM
Apologies for the delayed reaction in posting, but had too much work on Friday to join in, fab thread though :clap: :clap: , so her'e's my twopenneth for what it's worth.

Emma's got a point :hug: but I don't know how much of a problem this is across general Ceroc venues. Is this really a major issue? Many of the forumites posting mention Hipsters and are based in the South East. I do go to Hipsters on a Tues and in London I also dance at Jive Bar, Fulham, Casbah, and Chimes. I see hardly any couples paired off at the back at Ceroc, and only a few at Hipsters.

Advanced classes are a different thing. At Jive Bar, there are usually a couple of spare guys or girls so Bill and Lily move people round. At Fulham, I did a couple of Lily and David's classes and they asked what participants preference was, and it was to stay together, however numbers were even, and a very large percentage had gone to the class as partners. For these classes, covering musicality and some difficult dips/drops, it made sense to be with the same partner as there's a requirement for fine-tuning before the moves work. At JB, the classes have a different approach and it makes sense to move round.

Guess my point is that it is each to one's own, the organisers and teachers do their best to create venues and nights to suit the punters. If there's not enough people to make the venue profitable (this is a business remember) then formats can be adjusted (as at Hipsters). Ceroc is large organisation and its core membership comes from beginners and intermediates. Maybe the problem (if there is one) is that if you stick to the regular format the people that do beginners and intermediate classes will not get good enough to become advanced dancers like those seen in advanced and open competitions, without going to workshops etc. If the people in the classes aren't progressing enough there will be no need for an advanced class, but if there's no one teaching advanced moves then people will not progress - a bit like the chicken and egg scenario?

There's been a lot of talk about Hopsters. It's in London, and it has the potential to attract and to reach a large catchment area, I think it does fill a niche in the market, but only because of the location. Some people have said it doesn't suit them, but there are usually alternative venues, so what's the big deal. If you don't like it, vote with your feet, or speak to the organiser.

Gus, Peter, feel the same way about progressing as you guys, there seems to be a point at which dancing regularly with one or several partners and focusing on specific techniques can really make a difference. Guess it comes at a different time for each, which is why some rotate and some don't. But certainly, IMHO, there is a need for a regular outlet, rather than workshops, that teaches beyond intermediate.


but I still think that we must keep our eyes on the ball and stick with the original founding principles... There is no place in my world for 'elitism' Does this apply to comps with graded categories? Are you saying that people need to stick rigidly to a format that (I hope you agree) has a lot of constraints? :- I don't see too much mention of lead/follow, arm tension, hand grip, footwork, positioning, weight, or balance in intermediate classes, and the absence of these has to be accounted for. If there isn't a regular route to something more than just moves how can people really improve, particularly if they enjoy Ceroc so much they want to carry on after more than a couple of years?? :confused: Is it a case of once you want to progress past intermediate level you have to pay for private lessons, for example?


Here is one thing to consider; put yourself in the position of a woman who's preparing to go out dancing on a given weeknight...She also knows from experience that there will be so few men and so many women over that she will only have a partner for about half of the lesson... >Where will she go?Ans=To a double trouble class - Jive Bar :wink: . 20+ spare women last week :what: so Billco changed the class to Double Trouble (strictly 1 man - 2 women, sorry Andy!), then there were 12 spare men! - did us good to learn how to count. :blush:

If you got this far, thanks for reading.

The Pilgrim
2nd-August-2004, 08:28 PM
Unless pre-advertised as fixed couples, not rotating is totally against the spirit of MJ and EVERYBODY knows that.

Gordon J Pownall
3rd-August-2004, 10:35 AM
.....I don't see too much mention of lead/follow, arm tension, hand grip, footwork, positioning, weight, or balance in intermediate classes, and the absence of these has to be accounted for.

Quite agree and many Ceroc teachers will incorporate this into the regular class however we are time restricted as the minute you cut into freestyle time, it becomes unfair on people who have come along purely for freestyle.....that is why....... (on to next bit...) :what:



If there isn't a regular route to something more than just moves how can people really improve, particularly if they enjoy Ceroc so much they want to carry on after more than a couple of years?? :confused:

There is actually......CerocShops, workshops, advanced classes, Masterclasses and loads of other stuff going on across all franchises. :worthy: :worthy:

As an example :-

CerocMetro offers (and this is just what I can remember) :-

A monthly intermediate Masterclass at Cheshunt - first Monday of the month
3 classes on Wednesday at St Albans - Beginners/Beginners Plus/Intermediate
X Factor training
Advanced Masterclasses


Workshops / CerocShops :-

Beginners 1 + 2
Beginners Plus
Intermediate 1 + 2
Lifts, Drops and Seducers (two workshops)
Advanced Latin Jive (next one on 22 August 2004 in Finchley)
Double Trouble
Fantastic Footwork
Close Moves 1 + 2
Up Close and Personal
Choreographed Routines (five at varying levels at the last count)
Musical Interpretation
JiveMasters - The Moves (gimp mode on - video still available for 2003 - gimp mode off)

As well as a range of guest teachers (such as Salsa at the recent freestyle on Saturday in Stevenage, Amir and Kate a year or perhaps longer ago) :grin:

So there is loads of opportunity (and this is just one franchise - www.cerocmetro.com for more information on any of the above or email :- ceroc@hotmail.com ) :cheers:


Is it a case of once you want to progress past intermediate level you have to pay for private lessons, for example?

Not if you don't want to. It depends on what you are after...I have coached couples for their first wedding dance and choreographed routines for people who wanted something a bit different at parties / weddings etc etc. I have coached competition entrants as well.

Each had specific needs and requirements however for dancers who want to generically progress beyond what the intermediate class can offer then just refer back to the above.....and this is just CerocMetro.....

If people want to pay for 1-2-1 tuition then that is also readily available from most teachers at varying costs / levels / abilities etc.

But people don't have to.......if you consider just purely Ceroc and everything it has to offer, punters still do move around as their abilities / tastes in music / dancing preferences change. :really:

I went back to ballroom classes about three years ago for a while - not because I was limited by Ceroc or bored with it or anything particularly negative - I just fancied a bit of a change.

There is a huge range of talent in both teachers and dancers out there - why not arrange a get together one evening or on a Sunday afternoon (as my partner DJ Bunnie did a year or so ago).

Get together and have a load of dancers / friends / mates teach their four favourite moves / style tips or whatever, no egos, no elitism, no 'I'm advanced' etc etc...... :worthy:

On that day, we had a BBQ, twenty dancers, fantastic music cos' we all brought what we liked and a blo*dy great afternoon of sharing, coaching teaching, tips (call it whatever) - great idea - great success and great fun...... :cheers:

Andy McGregor
3rd-August-2004, 10:39 AM
Unless pre-advertised as fixed couples, not rotating is totally against the spirit of MJ and EVERYBODY knows that.

Some people seem to have forgotten :wink:

Or, their logic goes something like this;

1. I'm good enough to do a difficult lesson :clap:

2. I'm not good enough to rotate at a difficult lesson :tears:

3. Therefore I'll be one of the fixed couples at the back and leave the rotating to the people that don't have the problems I have that mean I need to stay in a fixed couple :confused:

Divissima
3rd-August-2004, 10:44 AM
Unless pre-advertised as fixed couples, not rotating is totally against the spirit of MJ and EVERYBODY knows that.

Some people seem to have forgotten

Or, some people simply disagree (as evidenced by this thread) :wink:

Gordon J Pownall
3rd-August-2004, 10:49 AM
Some people seem to have forgotten :wink:

Or, their logic goes something like this;

1. I'm good enough to do a difficult lesson :clap:

2. I'm not good enough to rotate at a difficult lesson :tears:

3. Therefore I'll be one of the fixed couples at the back and leave the rotating to the people that don't have the problems I have that mean I need to stay in a fixed couple :confused:


:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

It is about the individual and not the social spirit that is MJ......and that is what is disappointing....the one thing that kept me in Ceroc / MJ was that people were friendly, tolerant, patient and welcoming. My first ever Ceroc night was a freestyle with NO CLASS...!!!

The dancers there didn't refuse to dance with me, they took time out to teach me and criticise my technique in a positive and developmental way and most importantly, they still (or so it appeared), remembered that they were once beginners or newly into the intermediate class and made sure that newbies were looked after and not made to feel inadequate (even if we did feel that way)... :hug:

If I had not had been greeted by these traits, then I would question whether I would have stayed.

Rotate - do the fixed couples thing in workshops....... only then will venues go some way to avoiding the formation of cliques, closed to the public dancers and intimidation by a sense of inadequacy....... :yeah:

Andy McGregor
3rd-August-2004, 10:50 AM
Or, some people simply disagree (as evidenced by this thread) :wink:

But haven't we disagreed well :clap:

So far this debate has been brilliant - and not a drop of blood has been spilt on the dance floor. Just goes to show we can have a disagreement without it getting personal :clap:

p.s. Well, I disagree with you :thumbs nose: :devil:

Divissima
3rd-August-2004, 10:52 AM
But haven't we disagreed well :clap:

So far this debate has been brilliant - and not a drop of blood has been spilt on the dance floor. Just goes to show we can have a disagreement without it getting personal :clap:

p.s. Well, I disagree with you :thumbs nose: :devil:Right :angry: :angry: That's it - outside now sir, I demand satisfaction :angry:

P.S. only kidding :flower: :hug:

Andy McGregor
3rd-August-2004, 10:53 AM
intimidation by a sense of inadequacy....... :yeah:

Sorry to disagree with you Gordy, we are inadequate: it's the only thing we're good at :flower:

Andy McGregor
3rd-August-2004, 10:54 AM
I demand satisfaction

So many women have said this to me...

Divissima
3rd-August-2004, 10:56 AM
So many women have said this to me...
... and so few have been disappointed :wink:.... on the dancefloor (can only speak from personal experience, of course)

Gordon J Pownall
3rd-August-2004, 11:00 AM
Sorry to disagree with you Gordy, we are inadequate: it's the only thing we're good at :flower:

It has been said that men and women are equal.........if so........

Why is it that some women think that they are slightly more equal...??? :confused: :( :( :confused:

Sparkles
3rd-August-2004, 11:22 AM
So many women have said this to me...

I've never had the opportunity :tears:

Andy McGregor
3rd-August-2004, 11:22 AM
It has been said that men and women are equal.........if so........

Why is it that some women think that they are slightly more equal...??? :confused: :( :( :confused:

Just to slip (momentarily and only slightly, I promise) into serious mode. Us guys are to blame for this. During the mating season (which lasts 365 days a year in humans - longer for Smurfs) we agree with everything women say - well, there's no chance they'll hang around to mate with us if we disagree with them.

Once we realise we've go not chance with them we can be as equal as we like :confused:

Andy McGregor
3rd-August-2004, 11:24 AM
I've never had the opportunity :tears:

Ahh, my dream woman - one who wants to be disappointed :whistle:

Sparkles
3rd-August-2004, 11:25 AM
Ahh, my dream woman - one who wants to be disappointed :whistle:

You never know, you might surprise yourself :drool:

under par
3rd-August-2004, 11:34 AM
I've never had the oppertunity :tears:


You just have to take your chance :whistle:

Who knows what will happen :wink:

Lory
3rd-August-2004, 11:50 AM
It is about the individual and not the social spirit that is MJ......and that is what is disappointing....the one thing that kept me in Ceroc / MJ was that people were friendly, tolerant, patient and welcoming. :yeah: This is exactly what I was trying to express.
The most important thing, when entering a new venue, is the atmosphere, that everyone is equal, anyone can talk to anyone and ask anyone to dance, regardless of what standard your at.

The only way people get to improve is by dancing with people better than themselves.

I can clearly remember certain individuals in classes, who stood out as being 'good' dancers, taking the time to teach me and these people automatically went way up in my estimation as nice people too :worthy: and I will be forever grateful to them :hug:

The roles have been reversed recently and I've been in the position of being able to help some people who aren't as far down the road as me. I hope I've been able to encouraged them and make them feel as special and as welcome as I was made to feel! :flower:

Like it or not, walking into a venue where half the class is fixed couples, sadly does make it appear less friendly!

Maybe there is a place for workshop style evenings, where it's advertised as fixed couples only :confused:

Peter
3rd-August-2004, 11:53 AM
I can clearly remember certain individuals in classes, who stood out as being 'good' dancers, taking the time to teach me and these people automatically went way up in my estimation as nice people too :worthy: and I will be forever grateful to them :hug: The roles have been reversed recently and I've been in the position of being able to help some people who aren't as far down the road as me. I hope I've been able to encouraged them and make them feel as special and as welcome as I was made to feel! :flower:
I feel so guilty ... in the last year I have danced with very few beginners ...

mick
3rd-August-2004, 12:06 PM
some of whom are taxi dancers - what sort of message is that sending?

Why can't the organiser insist that taxi dancers (who get in free, when off duty) join with the classes?

Rachel
3rd-August-2004, 12:52 PM
... taxi dancers (who get in free, when off duty) ... Free? Maybe where you're from!!
Rachel

under par
3rd-August-2004, 12:56 PM
some of whom are taxi dancers - what sort of message is that sending?

Why can't the organiser insist that taxi dancers (who get in free, when off duty) join with the classes?

Mick

You come across rightly or wrongly in aggressive way.

Is this how to want to be percieved?


Peace love and understanding to all. :yeah:

Andy McGregor
3rd-August-2004, 12:57 PM
Free? Maybe where you're from!!
RachelSome organisers let their taxi dancers in free every week but only ask them to taxi every two or three weeks :clap:

Andy McGregor
3rd-August-2004, 12:59 PM
Mick

You come across rightly or wrongly in aggressive way.

Is this how to want to be percieved?


Peace love and understanding to all. :yeah:

Who you calling agressive? WHO? WHO?

YOU AND WHO'S ARMY?

:flower:

Rachel
3rd-August-2004, 01:01 PM
Some organisers let their taxi dancers in free every week but only ask them to taxi every two or three weeks :clap: Actually, to be fair, we get free entry on our taxi night, and an additional admit one for free entry at one other class.

Didn't someone once mention free drinks for taxi dancers somewhere?
Rachel

under par
3rd-August-2004, 01:04 PM
Who you calling agressive? WHO? WHO?

YOU AND WHO'S ARMY?

:flower:


OUTSIDE NOW with your army. :hug: :kiss:

Come and join me and Gordy in a hugathon. :rofl: :kiss: :hug: :hug:

mick
3rd-August-2004, 01:12 PM
Mick

You come across rightly or wrongly in aggressive way.

Is this how to want to be percieved?


Peace love and understanding to all. :yeah:

I apologise if that is the case but I thought I had made a perfectly reasonable point.

When I started doing intermediate classes, I found it very difficult. It was much easier ( though harder on the ego) when the partner knew what she was doing.
So at a venue, if experienced dancers pair up (which has not been my experience so far) then it would be very difficult to start intermediate.
And why would taxi dancers even need to do this?

under par
3rd-August-2004, 01:15 PM
I apologise if that is the case but I thought I had made a perfectly reasonable point.

When I started doing intermediate classes, I found it very difficult. It was much easier ( though harder on the ego) when the partner knew what she was doing.
So at a venue, if experienced dancers pair up (which has not been my experience so far) then it would be very difficult to start intermediate.
And why would taxi dancers even need to do this?

Your point very well made and apology not required just thought I'd say how you came across. :cheers: :hug:

Sheepman
3rd-August-2004, 03:08 PM
It seems like I was having a whole lot more fun last Friday than most of the people on here. I did 2 classes that day (at Beach Boogie), at one I rotated, at the other a friend REALLY didn't want to rotate, so as to avoid a certain partner, so I fixed with her. The numbers were even in the class which eased my guilt, but of course I did get to do the class with one of the best dancers there.

I do occasionally stay out of the rotation, and I always feel bad about it. My main reason will be due to competition practice. If you are doing the lesson with a fantastic dancer (and I wouldn't compete with any other type :wink: ) it is so much easier to learn the moves, play around and maybe enhance them, as well as usually find time to (quietly) work on some of your own stuff. There are definitely moves that have moved into my normal freestyle dancing that I have learnt this way, if I'd been in the rotation I wouldn't have felt confident enough to use those moves at all.

So out of about 14 lessons I did last week, I was out of the rotation for 3 of them, (a much higher proportion than normal for me). Each time it was because I was asked, (even though there were extra men in one of the classes), apart from the reason stated above, I was asked because of competing together, and because of my partner having a badly injured back, and not wanting to damage it further. All valid reasons IMO, but I still think that standing out has to be bad news for MJ generally.

One class last week started with a demo, immediately I realised I would not cope with the class due to my injuries, should I have stayed in the class, and said to each partner that I was unable to perform about half of the routine, or should I have stayed out of the rotation? I often have to say to partners in the class "sorry I can't do this move" maybe this is just as annoying as me being at the back with a partner who doesn't mind missing out part of the class?

On a few ocassions I have been asked to stay out of the rotation with a partner who would otherwise not bother doing the class at all. What should I say? Maybe I'm too soft a touch, as I have agreed to do the class with them.

I think the argument about those at the back getting a "private lesson" is rather spurious, as this is nothing like the individual attention you get in a private lesson, or even in a workshop. If I have progressed from Intermediate :wink: it is mainly down to working individually with Mary (who now holds a national title :worthy: ) and other partners. Though most of this effort has only rarely been during classes.


or even couples practising before a competition..at which point of COURSE they would want to dedicate some time to working purely on their own dancing So is this a chink in Emma's armour? Is this part of the "Are Competitions Evil?" debate. I think there are some valid reasons for not rotating, but because it is easier is not a good one, (and neither is being so much in love with your partner that you can't bear to be separated!!)

Greg

The Pilgrim
3rd-August-2004, 03:51 PM
Maybe there is a place for workshop style evenings, where it's advertised as fixed couples only :confused:

Spot on Lory. There is a place for workshop style evenings for fixed couples and it should be advertised as such.



----------------
"A seeker of truth is no stranger to controversy."

ChrisA
3rd-August-2004, 05:03 PM
Partly as a consequence of the large number of fixed partners at Hipsters, I rarely dance with the fixed partner “hotshots”, including Jayne and Claire. Fortunately, most of the advanced dancers who never attend lessons will dance with me and, although they rarely know all of the moves that were taught in class, they generally enjoy learning them!

Well, well, well.

From Peter’s outspokenness on this thread, I had been assuming that he was like Andy – rotate in the classes and dance with everyone, including beginners, on a fairly impartial basis.

Particularly since he is prepared to name names, in public, as to who, in his opinion, are hotshots, I do find it necessary to draw attention to the staggering admission here, in the context of his rather accusing and, I might add, now apparently hypocritical earlier comments:


I feel so guilty ... in the last year I have danced with very few beginners ...

Now, I dance at Hipsters on Wednesdays. I rotate in the first class, like Jayne; and with Jayne, do the 3rd class as part of a fixed couple. So I guess that qualifies me as a hotshot too, in Peter’s eyes. Which I find as offensive as I know she and Claire do.

Now anyone is entitled to form any view they like of dancers’ behaviour – either general or specific.

They are also entitled to explain that view in a public forum.

But courtesy and decorum suggest, at least to me, that publishing lists of individuals whose behaviour is not to the poster’s taste is poor form, and likely to be offensive.

In this particular situation, however, I think that for someone to have a public dig, explicitly at named individuals, and implicitly at others, saying that they’re hotshots is offensive. And it becomes hypocritical in the extreme in the context of admitting that he won't dance with people who do classes in fixed couples, and, guilt aside, nor with beginners except rarely, though he will dance with those “advanced dancers” that are so good that they “never attend lessons”, and take pleasure in teaching them the routine.

I really think a public retraction of these accusations is in order here. I am aware that the opportunity for a private clarification of Peter’s views in this context has been totally ignored, which IMHO is also extremely discourteous.

Chris

Lory
3rd-August-2004, 05:22 PM
But haven't we disagreed well :clap:

So far this debate has been brilliant - and not a drop of blood has been spilt on the dance floor. Just goes to show we can have a disagreement without it getting personal :clap:

It WAS all going soooo well! :tears:

Gus
3rd-August-2004, 05:23 PM
I really think a public retraction of these accusations is in order here. I am aware that the opportunity for a private clarification of Peter’s views in this context has been totally ignored, which IMHO is also extremely discourteous.

Chris

Speaking as one who has on occaision gone in with gun's blazing ( :devil: ), maybe this thread could be seen as getting a little personal. I think that Emma made a good openning comment and its led to a healthy (for the most part) debate about when to be fixed and when not .. and a little side debate about Ceroc v Advanced classes. However, I dont think that its productive for individuals to be 'named and shamed', especialy if its over something that may not be worth 'shaming' over.

Could we just agree to disagree and use PMs to sort out any misunderstandings? :flower:

Jayne
3rd-August-2004, 05:36 PM
Could we just agree to disagree and use PMs to sort out any misunderstandings? :flower:
Absolutely!

It was only yesterday when I saw Peter's post. My initial reaction was to post on the forum with all guns blazing. Instead, I counted to ten and PMd him. The PM was picked up last night. No response came.

Since then he has been on-line for several hours and made eight posts, whilst still ignoring my PM.

The diplomatic approach was taken, but ignored.

I am all for agreeing to disagree - without publishing personal attacks as part of the disagreement.

J

Andy McGregor
3rd-August-2004, 06:32 PM
..although it is fairly good fun to watch a scrap from a distance :wink:

I'll step in and separate them if anyone pulls a knife :eek:

DavidY
3rd-August-2004, 06:36 PM
the people at the back of the class doing the routine separately and think 'Oh, one day I can be good enough to go to the back with those good dancers' (some of whom are taxi dancers - what sort of message is that sending? ).Thought about this and I have once or twice danced "fixed partner" when taxiing. But I think it was in exceptional cases when the refresher class finished early and/or Intermediate class ran on late, so I joined the class in the last 10 minutes and just for fun tried to pick it up with a fellow taxi dancer.

I didn't feel selfish doing this - as I'm supposed to be leading I never feel comfortable joining the rotation (scattering? :whistle: ) after the intermediate class has got underway. Unless I know the moves already it's not fair on whoever ends up with me if I'm trying to work out the 1st move when they're really interested in getting the 4th move right.

More generally if someone who's leading joins a class late, could it be more selfish to join in the rotation than to dance fixed partner? (Obviously everyone would ideally be there at the start, but it's not always possible.)

(Apologies if someone made this point 3 pages back & I missed it! :blush: )

Emma
3rd-August-2004, 09:55 PM
So is this a chink in Emma's armour? Ooh blimey, am I wearing armour? :wink: I think you'll see oh wooly one, that my point was originally made in regard to people who consistantly stay out of the general rotation. Just to make my point again (for the third time - I realise it's blimmin long thread) I was NOT referring to peope who step out occasionally for reasons of injury, competition, lerve or (even) hormones :flower:
Is this part of the "Are Competitions Evil?"debate. That'd be a "no". If it were, I think it would've come up, already :nice: Really, not :)
I think there are some valid reasons for not rotatingMoi aussi, mon ami - as previously stated :grin:

without publishing personal attacks as part of the disagreementTo be honest... although I realise Peter used the word 'hotshot' which has become a term of abuse on the 'rum...are you absolutely sure he meant it as such? I rather read it as a compliment, indicating that he regarded yourself and Divi as fabby dancers. Chill! :flower: (just trying to pour some oil here!!).

MartinHarper
4th-August-2004, 11:11 AM
I read someone earlier saying that dancing as a fixed couple was selfish, but that sometimes, a little self-indulgence is a good thing.

Could the same be said of occasional "hotshot" behaviour?

Peter
4th-August-2004, 11:28 AM
I dislike posts like this one, but clarification has been requested. Hopefully this post is clearer than the last one. As always, anything offensive is an error …


Partly as a consequence of the large number of fixed partners at Hipsters, I rarely dance with the fixed partner “hotshots”, including Jayne and Claire. Fortunately, most of the advanced dancers who never attend lessons will dance with me and, although they rarely know all of the moves that were taught in class, they generally enjoy learning them!


Most of the dancers at Hipsters are much better dancers than me, with many more years of varied dance experience. I have been dancing for little more than two years and hope, one day, to be able to emulate at least some of their dancing.

Hotshot •n. informal an important or exceptionally able person. →a sports player with a good aim. Concise Oxford Dictionary

I have always considered the word “Hotshot” to be complimentary and far from offensive. When skim reading this incredibly long and detailed thread, I thought Trampy had used the word “Hotshot” to describe those who dance fixed at the rear of Ealing Town Hall. Apologies!

I mentioned Claire and Jayne only because I have finally matched the face and their forum member name, they had both contributed several times to this thread and I thought they both danced fixed. In my opinion, they are both excellent dancers and I admire them. But I rarely dance with either (a) until Claire asked me to dance on Saturday night, we hadn’t danced for a year; I thoroughly enjoyed those dances (b) I have hardly ever danced with Jayne in a lesson and don’t think I have ever danced with her in freestyle. With the benefit of hindsight, I should not have mentioned any names. So I apologise unreservedly for this!

I consider those with fixed partners to be very lucky. I totally understand why they want to practice with each other, particularly in Amir’s lessons. I certainly do not think that dancing fixed is in poor form - I do it myself (so far, only in North East London (ceroc) venues, close to one of my partners!). However, it does have some adverse consequences for those not dancing fixed, principally a reduction of options.

As a consequence of dancing at many different venues for a year, a large number of ladies ask me to dance. Sometimes someone new, perhaps someone that I danced with when rotating, asks me. I will dance with anyone. But I do tend to dance with the same 60 or 70 most of the time. And I rarely have an opportunity to request a dance, particularly at Hipsters. When I do request a dance, it is usually someone that I know has been chasing me, or with whom I haven’t been able to dance for ages - I have been trying to dance with one forumite for three months. Another forumite’s post on Monday made me resolve to make a bigger effort to dance with beginners, although I doubt I should feel particularly guilty about this - last night at Hipsters I rotated, made no special effort in the freestyle and danced with seven beginner/intermediates.

After the Hipsters class, I tend to dance on the same part of the floor as I did during the class, that is towards the stage end. Many of those who turn up after the lesson also dance towards the stage end, so I frequently dance with them. I am so busy dancing that I rarely get off the dance floor, let alone sit down or move towards the rear of the hall. I suspect that others, including many of the fixed couples, do the same at the opposite end of the hall – so our paths rarely cross.

Hopefully this has clarified my views.


PS I think that tonight might be my first time dancing fixed at Hipsters ... I certainly don't consider this would elevate me to the dizzy heights of Hotshot ...

PPS my original post earned me a surprising level of positive rep and no negative (not yet anyway!)

Andy McGregor
4th-August-2004, 11:31 AM
I read someone earlier saying that dancing as a fixed couple was selfish, but that sometimes, a little self-indulgence is a good thing.

Could the same be said of occasional "hotshot" behaviour?

You couldn't be an 'occasional' hotshot. If you're occasionally dancing with beginners or people you don't know or occasionally doing the lesson rather than always chatting/joking with your mates at the side you can't be a hotshot - which is nice :flower:

Andy McGregor
4th-August-2004, 11:41 AM
Hotshot •n. informal an important or exceptionally able person. →a sports player with a good aim. Concise Oxford Dictionary

I have always considered the word “Hotshot” to be complimentary and far from offensive. When skim reading this incredibly long and detailed thread, I thought Trampy had used the word “Hotshot” to describe those who dance fixed at the rear of Ealing Town Hall. Apologies!

There has been much debate on here about "hotshot dancers": here is the quote that started it all;

"Beginning dancer. Knows nothing.
Intermediate dancer. Knows everything. Too good to dance with beginners.
Hotshot dancer. Too good to dance with anyone.
Advanced dancer. Dances everything. Especially with beginners." - author unknown

But, please, please, please, let's not start that debate again :tears:

I expect that Peter used the word hotshot in its true way rather than the way many of us do. He was paying people a compliment :clap: And, well done Peter for taking the time to explain yourself - have some more rep.

mick
4th-August-2004, 11:46 AM
[QUOTE=Peter]

I consider those with fixed partners to be very lucky.
QUOTE]

It has advantages and disadvantages.

You got to take the bitter with the better.

Peter
4th-August-2004, 11:54 AM
There has been much debate on here about "hotshot dancers": here is the quote that started it all;

"Beginning dancer. Knows nothing.
Intermediate dancer. Knows everything. Too good to dance with beginners.
Hotshot dancer. Too good to dance with anyone.
Advanced dancer. Dances everything. Especially with beginners." - author unknown

I keep telling my wife that I don't spend enought time on the forum ... if only I had read this post earlier.

Is there a dictionary in here ??

TheTramp
4th-August-2004, 11:57 AM
Well. Considering that quote about levels of dancing, doesn't really have anything that anyone would want to be, between Beginning dancer, and Advanced dancer, everyone will be labelled with something they don't want to be really.

Probably needs another few categories in there - some on an either/or basis too....

Trampy

Andy McGregor
4th-August-2004, 11:59 AM
I keep telling my wife that I don't spend enought time on the forum ... if only I had read this post earlier.


No harm done, I think :flower:



Is there a dictionary in here ??

If you read just about any of Gadget's posts you'd know the answer to that one :wink:

Divissima
4th-August-2004, 12:25 PM
Thank you, Peter, for clarifying :flower: Apology accepted, of course - now may I have another dance tonight? I agree with Andy, no harm done - just glad you didn't mean a nasty type of hotshot! :really: :eek: Although, since TwK and I are now preparing for a big comp in :eek: :sick: :eek: under four weeks' time, I'm afraid we are likely to spend much of freestyle panicking - oops, I mean practicing - together.... :devil:

spindr
4th-August-2004, 12:36 PM
A slightly different benefit of rotation is that it make it easier for shy people (like myself) to ask people [they've already met and danced with in a class rotation] for a dance later during the freestyle.

SpinDr.

ChrisA
4th-August-2004, 01:30 PM
Thank you, Peter, for clarifying
......... :yeah:

Guess I've been spending too much time on the forum... to the point that I'm totally conditioned to interpret the term "hotshot" in only one way. :blush:

"Hotshot" is a term that's come to have a special meaning here - namely people who, by their behaviour, give the impression that they aren't interested in dancing with people below the standard of their circle of chums.

It results in them seeming somewhat exclusive, and even disdainful towards lesser dancers.

However, over time I've come to discover that those I had thought were hotshots, in fact weren't - and I've come to the conclusion that the true hotshot is a much rarer breed than many people imagine.

Which is good, of course.

Though it doesn't help the people who feel less good about their dancing than they'd like - it's quite nice to be able to blame a hotshot for not asking one to dance, rather than looking to oneself and finding out what needs improvement.

I can feel another thread coming on :devil:

Chris

Stuart M
4th-August-2004, 01:47 PM
"Hotshot" is a term that's come to have a special meaning here - namely people who, by their behaviour, give the impression that they aren't interested in dancing with people below the standard of their circle of chums.

It results in them seeming somewhat exclusive, and even disdainful towards lesser dancers.

However, over time I've come to discover that those I had thought were hotshots, in fact weren't - and I've come to the conclusion that the true hotshot is a much rarer breed than many people imagine.



A slightly different benefit of rotation is that it make it easier for shy people (like myself) to ask people [they've already met and danced with in a class rotation] for a dance later during the freestyle.

SpinDr.

Related points here...?

I'd agree with Chris that there are actually very few dancers out there who are hotshots in the perjorative sense. But the rotation is very important in breaking the ice socially, and those who don't take part in it are inevitably going to be seen as less approachable. And potentially missing out on future good dance partners (i.e. people on their way up, who end up with a tainted opinion of the non-rotator whom they never got the chance to talk to).

Peter
4th-August-2004, 02:05 PM
... the rotation is very important in breaking the ice socially, and those who don't take part in it are inevitably going to be seen as less approachable. And potentially missing out on future good dance partners (i.e. people on their way up, who end up with a tainted opinion of the non-rotator whom they never got the chance to talk to).

I totally agree.

Is there a non dancing social situation with a similarly (or more) successful ice breaker?

ChrisA
4th-August-2004, 02:34 PM
Related points here...?

I'd agree with Chris that there are actually very few dancers out there who are hotshots in the perjorative sense. But the rotation is very important in breaking the ice socially, and those who don't take part in it are inevitably going to be seen as less approachable. And potentially missing out on future good dance partners (i.e. people on their way up, who end up with a tainted opinion of the non-rotator whom they never got the chance to talk to).
Welllll....

In a difficult class, where 100% concentration and application are required to get the material being taught, I'm not all that interested in social ice-breaking. I'm there to learn. I'd rather be able to dance the moves with all those ladies later in freestyle and lead them comfortably and effortlessly through them (in my dreams), than appear all sociable and miss half of it - as some do, much to my irritation sometimes.

And if my worth as a future dance partner is going to be judged solely on how approachable I come across as, in rotation in a hard class that I'm only just keeping up with, then I'd have to question whether I'd be that fussed if they didn't ask me to dance later.

Chris

Zebra Woman
4th-August-2004, 02:36 PM
. But the rotation is very important in breaking the ice socially, and those who don't take part in it are inevitably going to be seen as less approachable.

Yes yes, the rotation is a really efficient way to break the ice, and gives me the confidence to approach someone later.

As I said 10 pages ago, I have no objections to static couples, but the result is I am far less likely to actually approach someone and ask for a dance if I haven't met them in the rotation. Until they have found some other way to break the ice with me, it's down to them to do the leg work I'm afraid. Luckily, mostly they do :worthy: ....no names :wink:

I would particularly like the static men come and ask me for a dance and to try the new moves on me during the freestyle unannounced if possible, assuming the music isn't too fast and is it is safe etc. The true test.

On the plus side ...one more thing:
On the very rare occasions I have danced statically (at Ceroc) it has been with an intermediate/advanced dancer was feeling despondent about their static repertiore of (they say) boring moves. While we are static, my partner and I have usually had to invent a pet-name for the new move, talk about the lead follow details, make changes, do extra run-throughs as the women walk around etc. All this extra effort usually results in a move which is remembered and leadable.

In 6 years of dancing I have done this less than 8 times ever. So I am no expert. But to this day I and the men I have danced statically with have still got quite a few of those moves in our heads. I always smile when one of those moves is served up out of the blue, we both smile... :grin: :grin: Progress :clap:

IMHO I think the price of progress is worth paying

Alison :flower: :flower:

Peter
4th-August-2004, 02:56 PM
I'd be mortified to think my friends would vote for me if we weren't the best couple

Is there any evidence to suggest that this actually happens .... ? (tongue still firmly in cheek).

Jayne
4th-August-2004, 03:47 PM
Re Peter's post: reply sent by PM

J :nice:

latinlover
4th-August-2004, 05:00 PM
I'd rather be able to dance the moves with all those ladies later in freestyle and lead them comfortably and effortlessly through them (in my dreams), than appear all sociable and miss half of it - as some do, much to my irritation sometimes.Chris
:yeah:

I totally support the rotation, ice-breaking concept ,and I almost invariably stay in the rotation ,and meet people & chat & disturb the class :blush: :whistle:
but sometimes I find myself with a classy teacher or difficult moves and as I am a slow learner at the best of times, then I will opt out in order to maintain maximum concentration, (and get help from Mrs LL who usually gets it together long before I do anyway) :worthy:
and as Chris so rightly says , I prefer to be able to lead correctly in the freestyle, than have one or two unsuccessful attempts and forget the whole thing :cheers:

Lory
4th-August-2004, 05:21 PM
I'm not all that interested in social ice-breaking. I'm there to learn. I'd rather be able to dance the moves with all those ladies later in freestyle and lead them comfortably and effortlessly through them (in my dreams), than appear all sociable and miss half of it - as some do, much to my irritation sometimes.


Chris
OMG Chris, I must be your ultimate nightmare! :tears: :rofl: :hug:

Peter
4th-August-2004, 05:41 PM
OMG Chris, I must be your ultimate nightmare!

Really missed dancing with you last night .... xxxx

ChrisA
4th-August-2004, 05:59 PM
OMG Chris, I must be your ultimate nightmare! :tears: :rofl: :hug:
Oh, if only you were, Lory, if only you were. My life would be perfect indeed.

:hug:

Chris