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Jive Brummie
31st-July-2004, 02:01 PM
With all this discussion of advanced dancing...........who exactly determines who an advanced dancer is....

Are there not enough problems with people getting all over excited and jumping from beginner to intermediate without intermediates throwing themselves into the lions den that is the 'advanced dancer'??


james

Gus
31st-July-2004, 02:09 PM
With all this discussion of advanced dancing...........who exactly determines who an advanced dancer is....


Arrghhhhh not that debate again :tears: :tears: :wink:

The answer is ... dunno! BUT ... for the group of mates who are now working together I've only invited those who I know who are (or will be) very competent dancers, are willing to develop/change their dancing and (most importantly) can interpret music rather than just doing moves. This last criteria rules out 95% of dancers on the local circuit at least. :sick:

Daisy Chain
31st-July-2004, 04:05 PM
Arrghhhhh not that debate again :tears: :tears: :wink:

I've only invited those who I know who are (or will be) very competent dancers, are willing to develop/change their dancing and (most importantly) can interpret music rather than just doing moves. This last criteria rules out 95% of dancers on the local circuit at least. :sick:

:tears: :tears: :tears: Oh well, back to the beginners consolidation class for me.

Daisy

Gus
31st-July-2004, 04:28 PM
The answer is ... dunno! BUT ... for the group of mates who are now working together I've only invited those who I know who are (or will be) very competent dancers, are willing to develop/change their dancing and (most importantly) can interpret music rather than just doing moves. This last criteria rules out 95% of dancers on the local circuit at least. :sick:

Hmmm ... just negative rep (ananonymous of course :wink: ) for this post, maybe because I didnt make things clear. I not bothered about the nagative rep but I do worry about the attitude that came with it. The comment was "I'll bet everyone who goes to your class will be thrilled to read this post :-( " the sessions I referred to are nothing to do with club nights ... as I said its just a bunch of mates getting together because we want to improve ourselves. If thats seen as elitest ... I must admit I cant see why. Myself and my crew bust a gut every week to bring MJ to as many people as possible. Its not just a case of helping out a few beginners on a club night ... its a case that we've all made a serious effort to help people on and, in my own case, put a lot of money at risk to do so. If people then want to develop themselves in their own time whats the problems with that? :confused:

Daisy Chain
31st-July-2004, 04:43 PM
Hmmm ... just negative rep (ananonymous of course :wink: )

OMG, it wasn't me! Honest, I was too busy dealing with Andy's bed of Daisies. But, as predicted by the ananonymous poster, I was quite thrilled. how many more thrills do I need before I'm thrilled skinny?

Daisy

Daisy Chain
31st-July-2004, 05:15 PM
Arrghhhhh not that debate again :tears: :tears: :wink:

I've only invited those who I know who are (or will be) very competent dancers, are willing to develop/change their dancing and (most importantly) can interpret music rather than just doing moves. :sick:

*sniff* Bet he makes them dance to Craig Interesting Davis :wink:

I'll shut up now.

Daisy

Gus
31st-July-2004, 05:24 PM
*sniff* Bet he makes them dance to Craig Interesting Davis :wink:

Funny you should mention that ...

Actualy they like Craig David, and the Jazz Funk, fast Hip Hop and soft-rock ... its the Will Young they really rebelled about :tears:

Tiggerbabe
31st-July-2004, 07:14 PM
Serious note - if you don't have a sense of humour - don't read this post!!


Having a couple of Ceroc teachers as close personal friends, I recently discovered that having one's head up one's own arse actually helps with the execution of the super duper advanced moves... most of which can only be achieved in that glorious land, hemmed in by the M25.

I found this in a thread from long, long ago and just thought it might help anyone who's struggling to get to grips with their advanced classes :whistle: :wink: :kiss:

Andy McGregor
31st-July-2004, 07:20 PM
Ahh, you must mean the Rectum Autowrap, it's taught as a beginners move in Essex :devil:

Tiggerbabe
31st-July-2004, 07:26 PM
Ahh, you must mean the Rectum Autowrap, it's taught as a beginners move in Essex :devil:
:worthy: :worthy:

Emma
31st-July-2004, 08:14 PM
This last criteria rules out 95% of dancers on the local circuit at least. :sick:Darling, if I were on your 'local circuit' and I read that comment, and I wasn't taking the Mary Poppins approach to reputations...I might also be rather tempted to neg rep you, especially if I hadn't been *invited* to your 'non elitist' group (how can a invitation only group NOT be elitist?!) :hug: :flower:

Tiggerbabe
31st-July-2004, 08:40 PM
can interpret music rather than just doing moves. This last criteria rules out 95% of dancers on the local circuit at least. :sick:
Have to agree Gus, if I danced in your area I'd be very unhappy reading that - and if I were a teacher in your area I'd be even unhappier :tears: :tears:

ChrisA
31st-July-2004, 09:28 PM
Have to agree Gus, if I danced in your area I'd be very unhappy reading that - and if I were a teacher in your area I'd be even unhappier :tears: :tears:
All Gus seemed to be saying by that was that if you don't interpret the music, you're not an advanced dancer.

Is that such a big deal? That if you don't, you aren't? Not that if you do, you are, of course. I am trying to these days, and I don't think of myself as advanced yet.

Maybe there are some "moves only" dancers that would qualify as advanced, but I'd be interested to hear how... :flower: (excluding by doing aerials :D )

Chris

Jive Brummie
31st-July-2004, 09:32 PM
All Gus seemed to be saying by that was that if you don't interpret the music, you're not an advanced dancer.

Is that such a big deal? That if you don't, you aren't? Not that if you do, you are, of course. I am trying to these days, and I don't think of myself as advanced yet.

Maybe there are some "moves only" dancers that would qualify as advanced, but I'd be interested to hear how... :flower:

Chris

What Gus may lack in subtlety, he does make up for with honesty, and here is Chris to back him up...........have to say, I tend to agree as well.

please don't hate me :tears:

james x x

Emma
31st-July-2004, 09:38 PM
My interpretation of what Gus said is that at least 95% of the dancers in his area are unable to interpret the music. NINETY FIVE?!

(It may well be true that all advanced dancers can interpret music and that therefore if you cannot you are not an advanced dancer, this is not what I was picking up on and I'm pretty sure it's not what Sheena was commenting on either:flower: )

Tiggerbabe
31st-July-2004, 09:40 PM
All Gus seemed to be saying by that was that if you don't interpret the music, you're not an advanced dancer.

Yes, but he also said that 95% of the dancers in his area don't.......and I find that a bit hard to believe. Ok, maybe they don't interpret each break with some fabulous drop, dip or showcase freeze because they don't know them yet - but I'm sure that more than 5% of the dancers recognise differences in the music and adjust their moves to suit.

ChrisA
31st-July-2004, 09:47 PM
Yes, but he also said that 95% of the dancers in his area don't.......and I find that a bit hard to believe. Ok, maybe they don't interpret each break with some fabulous drop, dip or showcase freeze because they don't know them yet - but I'm sure that more than 5% of the dancers recognise differences in the music and adjust their moves to suit.
Including all of them?

Beginners and early intermediates too?

Nope, I reckon 95% is probably not that far off the mark. :tears:

Not commenting on any particular area... just assuming that most areas are more or less similar.

Chris

Tiggerbabe
31st-July-2004, 10:05 PM
Beginners and early intermediates too?

Why not? Some people are much more aware of "music" than others - and I'll grant you some don't ever, EVER seem to be listening to the music at all :whistle:
I was in Glasgow, Jumpin Jaks the other Tuesday and danced with a young man, there for the very first time and by the end of the evening he was dancing "with" the music.........now I'll grant you he's the exception but goes to show that musical interpretation does not belong to one group of dancers. :worthy: :worthy:

I do remember Nina, at a workshop, saying, that for musical interpretation she was only looking for a sign that the couple dancing recognised there had been a difference in the structure of the music and that it didn't have to be a huge flashy move. :clap:

Guess, we'll just have to agree to disagree - but if I were Gus I'd sense a major workshop opportunity :wink:

bigdjiver
31st-July-2004, 10:57 PM
With all this discussion of advanced dancing...........who exactly determines who an advanced dancer is....
james There are relationships between the partners, and between the partners and the music. I believe that the most important one is between the partners. I go to MJ with my prime purpose to enjoy myself, and I can only do that if I think my partner is enjoying it too. Every once in a while, if partner is up for it, I will deliberately do something that I hope the spectators will enjoy. If my partner likes to interpret the music, I will try to do that, but mostly I am playing. For me the order of importance is play, perform, and lastly "art", or, to put it another way, the dancefloor is firstly a playground, secondly a stage, and thirdly a canvas. (I have assumed it is a meeting ground for everybody) For me an advanced dancer is one that can use the dancefloor for all of those purposes, to suit partner, and the moment.

Anyway, I have put up a poll for others to give their views.

Gus
1st-August-2004, 02:18 AM
Guess, we'll just have to agree to disagree - but if I were Gus I'd sense a major workshop opportunity :wink:

Look ... as DD once said , 76.3% of statistics are made up ... so my '95%' wasn’t meant to be taken literally BUT;

1) I've been dancing and teaching long enough to know what good looks like ... even if I cant always aspire to it myself.

2) I can watch dancers for a while and assess whether they are really working with the music or just doing some great looking moves

3) MANY dancers currently rated as 'advanced' DO NOT interpret music (IMHO) ... one of the reasons I became disillusioned with the competition circuit (go on. flame me ... I've had a great night out, loads of Bacardi so I don’t care :grin: )

4) Its my time and effort to coach ... sorry, no its to facilitate the development of the chosen few. I make no apologies ... (blunt as ever) ... but at the end of the day I stand to be judged by the improvement (or not) off those dancers over the next 5 months. If there is a discernable improvement then I may argue that the ends justifies the means.

5) Re the workshop opportunity, there are probably only about 3 teachers in the UK who could teach true musicality and interpretation to people who fundamentally lack such skill ... and I aint one of them. :sad:

MartinHarper
1st-August-2004, 04:57 PM
Who exactly determines who an advanced dancer is?

It's subjective. You decide who is advanced for you by looking at people and judging how they dance and listening to what other people say about how they dance. There's no centralised bureau for the classification of dancers.

quiet_flame
2nd-August-2004, 09:23 AM
With all this discussion of advanced dancing...........who exactly determines who an advanced dancer is....


I posed a similar question on the Australian Forum. I was amazed at the responses...

THis one I think somes it up for me tho... the rest are priorities.



What makes an advanced dancer? It depends who is asking. A similar question is "are you an advanced dancer?" It depends on who's opinion you consider most important.

Generally there are three individuals/groups who have an opinion - your partner, the audience, and the judges.

Your partner
If you are purely a social dancer, then the only opinion that really counts is your partner's. And it is their opinion of how it feels, not looks.

To me the main skill for an advanced social dancer is leading/following. After that for leaders it is probably what you lead, and what opportunities you give to your partner. It is also knowing what your partner likes and doesn't like - ESP is useful! I like followers to improvise, but also to know when not to improvise. I also like some feedback on what I'm leading. Whether it is a smile or a glare, it gives me a chance to change what I'm doing. Telepathy doesn't always work.

Musical interpretation can be very subtle - a hesitation, an acceleration. If your partner can feel it then it is enough - it doesn't have to be rammed down their throats.

What is far less relevant is how it looks. Nice lines are not important. I can rarely see my partner's spare arm.

If you want to comment on someone else's ability as a social dancer, you can only do it after dancing with them, and not by just watching.

The Audience
Almost the opposite of your partner's opinion. It is the look that is paramount, not the feel. Subtlety becomes invisible - it is the more dramatic things that get noticed. Aerials & drops impress people. So do complicated moves. Simple things done well look boring. Musical interpretation sometimes gets overlooked because it is not obvious enough to be seen - it has to be almost continuous throughout the song before many people realise.

You need to see people dancing live (ie not on a video) to rate them. Video (especially the typical 6-couples-in-the-frame competition video) makes even the best dancers look flat.

The Judges
Hopefully they are somewhere in the middle. They can only watch, but they should be able to see how it feels as well.

The 'look' and the 'feel' are not exclusive of each other. They are not inclusive either. There are advanced social dancers who are virtually invisible to an audience, and boring to watch. But they are still advanced. You can look amazing, but give your partner a hard time. The very best dancers are good at both.

The nice thing about advanced social dancing is that everything can be learned. It does not rely on any natural ability.

David