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stewart38
29th-July-2004, 11:09 AM
I saw a large number of (I assume) first timers last night, who seemed completely overwhelmed by what they felt was expected of them - I wouldn't be suprised if they didn't come back, but that was based on seeing them at the end of the lesson, rather than the end of the night. Discount vouchers sort of work for this, since it's nice to be able to 'spend' them! Actual cost isn't so important, imo.

Sean

Are we not just making beginners sessions too hard. I attended one the other day that had 5 moves and foot work.

Gus
29th-July-2004, 11:18 AM
Are we not just making beginners sessions too hard. I attended one the other day that had 5 moves and foot work.

Yup ... I saw that routine ... I think this is part of the centralised routines from HQ. If so whoever put that routine together should have been shot! It put undue pressure on the Teacher, it didnt flow, I couldnt see what it was trying to teach the beginners and (most importantly) the beginners were totaly confused about it! I think that what ceroc has done in challenging the traditional format is laudable BUT I have extreme reservation about regarding the shoulderdrop (one of those five moves) as a beginner move. I taught it in intermediate last week and there is a fair amount of movement and co-ordination to convey to the class ... NOt a beginner move (IMHO).

Rachel
29th-July-2004, 11:55 AM
.... BUT I have extreme reservation about regarding the shoulderdrop (one of those five moves) as a beginner move. I taught it in intermediate last week and there is a fair amount of movement and co-ordination to convey to the class ... NOt a beginner move (IMHO). I'm kind of boycotting this thread a little, but I've been absolutely seething since last night when something happened, and I really need to get it off my chest (so please forgive me!).

Marc was having to teach that beginners' routine last night with the shoulder drop. Because it was a long routine and, for some reason, we had a huge number of brand new people, he altered the shoulder drop move slightly to make it easier. And everyone seemed fine with this.

However, I was helping out during the refresher class, and the taxi dancer who was teaching came to the shoulder drop move. He then said to everyone - 'when Marc taught this in the class, he did it wrong. It should be done ... And isn't that so much more stylish?'

I was so angry - for all he knew, Marc had good reasons to alter the move, and he never discussed it with Marc before the refresher. At the very least, it's completely impolite/insulting to announce to all the beginners that the teacher is wrong! I'm even more angry with myself for not saying something about it to this taxi - or the venue manager. I kept putting it off cos every time I saw him, he was talking to beginners and I didn't want to interrrupt or say anything in front of other people. I should have said something, though, and I'm really kicking myself now.

Anyway, that's my rant over for today. Sorry! All I can say is, the sooner they organise training for people who teach the refresher classes, the better.
Rachel

bigdjiver
29th-July-2004, 12:21 PM
... I have extreme reservation about regarding the shoulderdrop as a beginner move. (IMHO).
:yeah:

Definitely not a beginner move. It wiped out a couple of beginner guys at the class I was at. They could not get it, even with help from partners, and that failure spread through the rest of the routine. "I can normally do that one ..."

It is probably just me, but I find it is also very hard on my left shoulder when I am not warmed up.

Gus
29th-July-2004, 12:22 PM
However, I was helping out during the refresher class, and the taxi dancer who was teaching came to the shoulder drop move. He then said to everyone - 'when Marc taught this in the class, he did it wrong. It should be done ... And isn't that so much more stylish?'

Rule 1 Teacher is ALWAYS right
Ruke 2 When a Teacher is wrong ... see Rule1

I can sympathise with that incident totaly. During Teacher training it is(was) custom for the trainee teachers to help out the Taxi dancers at a local club. Iw as doing this at Fulham .. showing the intial grip and how to get into a first move. The lead taxi dancer watching we with an expression that could only be described as mild contempt and .. as I finished the talk through ... proceeded to teach the hold totaly differently commenting that "the theory is fine but in practice ..." etc. etc. Must admit that its the closest I've ever come to decking someone at a MJ event :angry:

tsh
29th-July-2004, 01:12 PM
Yup ... was Mick taking ... lots of venues I know either dont have the facility or just dont bother. My main bugbear is that the majority of Taxi dancers I have seen really dont know how to coach beginners. Not their fault, they just haven't been trained properly ... and we wonder why we loose 90 - 96% of beginners within a few months :sad:

I'd agree with this. I've experienced a big variation in teaching (as opposed to dancing) ability with taxis, but in general the 'review' session was almost entirely focused on the coarse structure of the moves. This is backed up with a strong tendancy for taxis to try and lead (or play an awkward follow). I was also told off by a taxi for jumping straight in with 3 consecutive nights in my first week (as I turned up!)

Most useful, I think, are the follows who mis-interpret my signals until I am clearer, and the ones who pick up on a single repeated mistake and then bother to explain it at the end of a dance! Some taxis do this, but so do a few of the other experienced dancers.

Sean

MartinHarper
29th-July-2004, 04:18 PM
Teacher is ALWAYS right

Contradicting the teacher to beginners can increase confusion for little gain, certainly. I wonder Gus - as a visitor, perhaps you were contradicting the Fulham teacher and regulars, who perhaps had his own style of grip? If so, the taxi had to say something to reduce the potential for beginner confusion.

Still, I'm sure he could have handled it better.

Gus
29th-July-2004, 05:02 PM
I wonder Gus - as a visitor, perhaps you were contradicting the Fulham teacher and regulars, who perhaps had his own style of grip? If so, the taxi had to say something to reduce the potential for beginner confusion.


Hmm ... the teacher was Viktor .... not likely to correct him! Interesting point but the disagreement was a fundamental point ... of NOT using a tight hold on the ladies hand. As a trainee Ceroc teacher the idea was that we were passing on the techniques straight form the 'horses mouth' :what: As Ceroc puts great store on a standardised approach I think they would get very concerned if basics like that were being taught differently. Modifying a move is one thing, changing a basic is another.

tsh
29th-July-2004, 06:10 PM
Are we not just making beginners sessions too hard. I attended one the other day that had 5 moves and foot work.

I don't think so. To start with, I found I could just keep up with the pace of the class (with some help from follower). After the revision session, it sort of made sense - and there was certainly a sense of achievement! The problem is not so much the complexity of the moves, but the huge number of different things that a beginner needs to learn all at once, e.g. leading/following, how to hold hands, which foot is left and right, which way to turn.

Make the routine much simpler, and there wouldn't be much to practice for the rest of the evening. Expectation management might be something to think more about though - the first lession will be tough! The pink sticker seems good for this - it saves apologising to anyone who asks you to dance, and seems to get you lots of attention!

Maybe the shoulder drop is a bit tricky (think I did it in my first class), but no more so than firstmove (too much footwork!), yoyo (both need to understand what happens!), octopus (which arm goes where, and which way do I turn), or catapult (too much moving about and turning). Is it a new move, or just new to beginners?

Sean

bigdjiver
29th-July-2004, 07:05 PM
. . . Maybe the shoulder drop is a bit tricky (think I did it in my first class), but no more so than firstmove (too much footwork!), yoyo (both need to understand what happens!), octopus (which arm goes where, and which way do I turn), or catapult (too much moving about and turning). Is it a new move, or just new to beginners?

Sean The first move is tricky, but it is so useful for regaining control of partner that I would keep it as a beginner move.
I am neutral on the Yo-Yo. There is a hazard for ladies who do not get it right to crash chest into arm.
I have no problem in leading ladies who have never done an octopus or catapult before, but the octopus was difficult for me to learn in the first place, and I lacked the confidence to do the catapult for a while. Both the octopus and the catapult have sufficient "Wow" factor for non-dancers to retain my vote as beginner moves.

under par
30th-July-2004, 03:11 AM
:yeah:

Definitely not a beginner move. It wiped out a couple of beginner guys at the class I was at. They could not get it, even with help from partners, and that failure spread through the rest of the routine. "I can normally do that one ..."

It is probably just me, but I find it is also very hard on my left shoulder when I am not warmed up.

Can anybody describe fully the shoulder drop move?

Is it lead from a hatchback?

Any clues please for someone who doesn't visit many Ceroc classes. Call me a heretic if you want !!!! But there aren't too many in Sussex. :blush:

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 09:11 AM
Can anybody describe fully the shoulder drop move?

I saw it recently... it went like this IIRC:

Start guy's L lady's R.

Count 1: step back (as ever)
Count 2: return the lady
Count 3: guy turns clockwise a half turn and combs himself to end up with his L and the lady's R on his R shoulder.
Count 4: guy steps forward (ie away from the lady) and drops lady's R hand from his shoulder into his R hand.

Finish like a catapult.

It's the count 3 bit that's difficult for beginners, since there's quite a lot to do all at once.

It's the same problem with the new version of the yoyo - the turn-to-face for the guy taking place at the same time as leading the lady back in from the step out. Requires a bit of multi-tasking, which can be a little difficult for beginner guys.

Chris

MartinHarper
30th-July-2004, 09:36 AM
The one I was shown (Ceroc Kidderminster) was similar to Chris's. Starting R-R, though

Count 1: step back (if you do footwork, lady back right, man back left)
Count 2: return the lady, but drop hands down to shoulder height, not waist height.
Count 3: guy turns clockwise a half turn and drops hands onto R shoulder.
Count 4: guy sidesteps left, and leads the girl to sidestep right
Count 5: back to #3
Count 6: guy steps forward (ie away from the lady) and drops lady's R hand from his shoulder into his L hand.
Count 7: guy pulls lady forward and turns her half a turn anti-clockwise
Count 8: step back.

If it's not just part of the shoulderdrop, does the 4&5 bit have a name?

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 09:57 AM
The one I was shown (Ceroc Kidderminster) was similar to Chris's. Starting R-R, though

Count 1: step back (if you do footwork, lady back right, man back left)
Count 2: return the lady, but drop hands down to shoulder height, not waist height.
Count 3: guy turns clockwise a half turn and drops hands onto R shoulder.
Count 4: guy sidesteps left, and leads the girl to sidestep right
Count 5: back to #3
Count 6: guy steps forward (ie away from the lady) and drops lady's R hand from his shoulder into his L hand.
Count 7: guy pulls lady forward and turns her half a turn anti-clockwise
Count 8: step back.

If it's not just part of the shoulderdrop, does the 4&5 bit have a name?

Hmm. This is certainly the way it's described on the Ceroc Kidderminster web site - there's quite a lot in it for a beginners move.

I wonder if the version I saw was simplified for the class it was taught in?

Chris

filthycute
30th-July-2004, 11:02 AM
Your right Martin.....that is the whole move. I think it's way too long and complicated and don't see how they can justify putting something like that in the beginners moves and then putting the wurlitzer and hallelujah in intermediates.........????? :confused:

filthycute x x

Emma
30th-July-2004, 11:15 AM
If it's not just part of the shoulderdrop, does the 4&5 bit have a name?'That bit people miss out in freestyle' ? :wink:

Gordon J Pownall
30th-July-2004, 11:20 AM
If it's not just part of the shoulderdrop, does the 4&5 bit have a name?

Well...this is how I tend to call it as the move is danced...

1.

Gordon J Pownall
30th-July-2004, 11:28 AM
If it's not just part of the shoulderdrop, does the 4&5 bit have a name?

Well...this is how I tend to call it as the move is danced...

1. Step Back
2. Turn the lady
3. To the shoulder

4. NASTY :whistle:
5. NASTY :whistle:

6. Catch
7. Under
8. Step back


Not the most popular move, but certainly not difficult....it depends on what else is being taught within the routine..... :confused:

Problems arise with the set routines where there are sometimes 5 moves and footwork to consider and the moves could be 7 or eight beats long and whilst it is a good idea to standardise the beginners moves within Ceroc, I'm not sure that it remains a good idea to standardise the routines. :sad:

It certainly has taken away artistic license from the teachers to set a beginners routine that meets the needs of the class on that night ie. lots of new members / no new members etc. etc.

I believe the idea was to have a video on the CEROC website of each routine for people to view however a better idea may be to just video the beginners moves for people. :clap:

As long as the teacher has his or her own rolling programme of beginners moves to ensure that all the moves are covered regularly and none are missed out or avoided being taught there shouldn't be a problem....

I used a form for this, held by the venue manager from week to week - worked amazingly well... :wink:

Oh well.....what do other Ceroc teachers think...??? :confused:

bigdjiver
30th-July-2004, 12:17 PM
. . . and whilst it is a good idea to standardise the beginners moves within Ceroc, I'm not sure that it remains a good idea to standardise the routines. :sad:

It certainly has taken away artistic license from the teachers to set a beginners routine that meets the needs of the class on that night ie. lots of new members / no new members etc. etc.

I do know beginners who benefit from the common routines on the same night policy.

I do know of times where the set routine does not fit the class profile, and the teachers were not happy.

If there are variations of beginner moves in the intermediate, then it might be helpful to have the freedom to teach those beginner moves that night to help the transition dancers.

Little Em
30th-July-2004, 12:18 PM
[QUOTE=Gordon J Pownall]Well...

4. NASTY :whistle:
5. NASTY :whistle:





We were told to say
4. Away
5. Together

if you really wanted to know that!!!!!!! :wink:

Nick M
30th-July-2004, 12:30 PM
The one I was shown was similar to Chris's. Starting R-R, though

I always do this from a R/R as well

Bigger Andy
30th-July-2004, 12:41 PM
Definitely not a beginner move.

As it has been explained to me ...
"Beginners moves" are not necessarily called that because they are easy.
There are some more complicated moves included because they form the basis of what is to come.

MartinHarper
30th-July-2004, 12:51 PM
My problem with the move is that it starts identically to one of my favourite Jazz Jive moves called "turn the girl, turn the guy, charleston". I knew another guy there who'd done Jazz Jive, and we both said it was difficult to resist the urge to go into the charleston rhythm.

I'll have to try it L-R next time, and/or with a catapult style exit and/or missing out the fourth and fifth steps. Another nice variation I've seen is going off on a stroll after step three.

Gordon J Pownall
30th-July-2004, 12:52 PM
[QUOTE=Gordon J Pownall]Well...

4. NASTY :whistle:
5. NASTY :whistle:





We were told to say
4. Away
5. Together

if you really wanted to know that!!!!!!! :wink:

Errrr.........no........ :wink: :wink: :wink:

:hug:

DavidY
30th-July-2004, 01:03 PM
I've seen a few variations on this move.

I think I've seen it taught with parts 4 & 5 missed out.

I've also seen 4 & 5 done with both partners stepping the same way at the same time, and also the opposite way, with the leader stepping right while the follower steps left.

I've also seen a "catapult" ending, and also a different ending where the leader steps to the side (right) while the follower steps to the side left, follower's RH sliding down the leader's LH, followed by a return to end facing.

My question is though - if it's a beginner's move and everything is supposed to be standard from Ceroc venue to Ceroc venue, shouldn't it be the same for all Ceroc venues?

If I had been dancing for only a very few weeks, I'd be confused if different teachers or different nearby venues teach different variations from week to week. I stand a chance of remembering things if they're the same every time, but different variations confuse me if they are labelled as being the same thing.

I can see Rachel's point about Marc needing to vary the move because the routine was too long, but I can't remember the last time a teacher changed any of the other beginners' moves in that way. I'm sure Marc was correct to do what he did, but it feels like this might be a fault in the move itself (is the move too long?) or in the routine that was "set" for that night.

When other Beginners' moves (eg. a First Move or an Octopus) get taught, it seems to be an identical move in all Ceroc venues - whoever's teaching. There are variations between eg. ArmJive pushspin and an ArmJive Swizzle, but these are listed as separate Beginners moves in their own right.

Why does the Shoulder Drop get to vary so much? :confused:

Gordon J Pownall
30th-July-2004, 01:06 PM
Why does the Shoulder Drop get to vary so much? :confused:

'cos it's a pants move that no one likes...???(IMHO) :whistle:

DavidY
30th-July-2004, 01:12 PM
'cos it's a pants move that no one likes...???(IMHO) :whistle:Maybe - but it seems to have replaced the sway (which also seemed to be a beginner's move for a while) -and I didn't like the sway much as a beginners' move either. :sad:

Little Em
30th-July-2004, 01:15 PM
Errrr.........no........ :wink: :wink: :wink:

:hug:




rude! :wink:

Gordon J Pownall
30th-July-2004, 01:22 PM
rude! :wink:

Just playful - I was actually reminiscing last night with another Ceroc teacher of the old school how training had changed over the years and how the 'cheese of the training' has been interpreted and implemented (or not) by teachers....

All in jest little cute one.....have a hug... :hug: :hug: :hug:

Little Em
30th-July-2004, 01:37 PM
Just playful - I was actually reminiscing last night with another Ceroc teacher of the old school how training had changed over the years and how the 'cheese of the training' has been interpreted and implemented (or not) by teachers....

All in jest little cute one.....have a hug... :hug: :hug: :hug:


The course has changed quite a lot from what i hear from teachers old an new!!........ the 'cheesy' lines for the key points are always good!! :wink:

Though i must admit i only had the courage to use one proper cheese line on one of my key points the other night and i did get a laugh!!....(at me or with me im not too sure!! :tears: )

i think its more of how you say it than what you say?

If you have any tips for me on anything this would b good!!!! :clap:

Gordon J Pownall
30th-July-2004, 01:49 PM
If you have any tips for me on anything this would b good!!!! :clap:

Do what feels right.......find your own style....if ever the class has more fun than you - give up teaching........

Mind you...that's me....... :flower:

Little Em
30th-July-2004, 01:57 PM
Tips noted and taken on board!! :grin:

I feel a bit static at the moment still..... like im a recorded message!! :sick:

hope i dont come across like that.....youll have to come up to one of my classes and see for youself one night.....would b lovely to have you an sal there??????? thur night @ Rugby is it a possibility? Hhmmm? :confused: :wink:

u going to Twyford by any chance this sat?

E x

Simon r
30th-July-2004, 02:05 PM
Just playful - I was actually reminiscing last night with another Ceroc teacher of the old school how training had changed over the years and how the 'cheese of the training' has been interpreted and implemented (or not) by teachers....

All in jest little cute one.....have a hug... :hug: :hug: :hug:

Did the conversation consisit of seven ,eight (with false grin)

Gordon J Pownall
30th-July-2004, 03:54 PM
Did the conversation consisit of seven ,eight (with false grin)

Certainly did, with an upward intonation on the eeeeeeeeeight..... :whistle:


'Ickle Em,

I'm on my annual pilgrimage this weekend so can't make it to Twyford.....

It's the World Superbikes at Brands Hatch......lots of noise with hot and throbbing things between men's legs and copious amounts of leather..... :blush: :blush:

Mind you, if Andy McG is having a party this weekend..........could get the same kind of experience...... :wink:

bigdjiver
30th-July-2004, 04:41 PM
As it has been explained to me ...
"Beginners moves" are not necessarily called that because they are easy.
There are some more complicated moves included because they form the basis of what is to come.
Thanks for passing that on, but I am not buying that argument for the "shoulder drop". I have seen some beginners having difficulty and coming close to inflicting pain with the arm-jive nelson, but I can see the point of that move.

Gordon J Pownall
30th-July-2004, 04:49 PM
Thanks for passing that on, but I am not buying that argument for the "shoulder drop". I have seen some beginners having difficulty and coming close to inflicting pain with the arm-jive nelson, but I can see the point of that move.

Is this the arm jive taught by Nelson (fro the South / South West...or do you mean the Armjive Swizzle...??? :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

Devil's Advocate mode off ... :wink:

Trish
30th-July-2004, 05:00 PM
I've seen a few variations on this move.
My question is though - if it's a beginner's move and everything is supposed to be standard from Ceroc venue to Ceroc venue, shouldn't it be the same for all Ceroc venues?


I thought that too! I don't like it either. As a taxi dancer, I find that most of the guys have problems with it (and some of the girls). We were taught the long version, and I think they also have problems remembering it! The class where this was taught with 4 other moves also significantly overran timewise.

Also if the moves are taught partly because they lead onto other intermediate variations (like the first move, or the basket) then I can't see what the shoulder drop is doing there from that point of view either - I've not commonly done any variations on this that I can think of! :confused:

bigdjiver
31st-July-2004, 01:03 AM
Is this the arm jive taught by Nelson (fro the South / South West...or do you mean the Armjive Swizzle...??? :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

Devil's Advocate mode off ... :wink:

swizzle

n : any of various tall frothy mixed drinks made usually of rum and lime juice and sugar shaken with ice


don't recognise that ... though it sounds like a good innovation. :grin:

or

To convert external names, array indices, or references within
a data structure into address pointers when the data structure
is brought into main memory from external storage (also called
"pointer swizzling"); this may be done for speed in chasing
references or to simplify code (e.g. by turning lots of name
lookups into pointer dereferences). The converse operation is
sometimes termed "unswizzling".

I rest my case, does that sound like a beginner move? :confused:

MartinHarper
1st-August-2004, 04:24 PM
One query I have with the shoulder drop - how do you lead the lady to let go of your shoulder&right hand and catch your left hand with her right? As opposed to just grabbing your left hand with her left, for example?

Gordon J Pownall
2nd-August-2004, 10:15 AM
One query I have with the shoulder drop - how do you lead the lady to let go of your shoulder&right hand and catch your left hand with her right? As opposed to just grabbing your left hand with her left, for example?

Offer your left hand behind just before letting go of your right hand. As men step forward, let go of the ladies hand on your shoudler and (hopefully) the ladies will take hold....

Kinda like how do the ladies know how to take hold of your left hand when doing the catapult...???

Clear offer behind.... :confused:

Nasty, nasty move.....(IMHO)

Gordon J Pownall
2nd-August-2004, 10:19 AM
swizzle

n : any of various tall frothy mixed drinks made usually of rum and lime juice and sugar shaken with ice


don't recognise that ... though it sounds like a good innovation. :grin:

or

To convert external names, array indices, or references within
a data structure into address pointers when the data structure
is brought into main memory from external storage (also called
"pointer swizzling"); this may be done for speed in chasing
references or to simplify code (e.g. by turning lots of name
lookups into pointer dereferences). The converse operation is
sometimes termed "unswizzling".

I rest my case, does that sound like a beginner move? :confused:


What was the question again...?

(brain has now turned to soup and is trickling down my neck)........


Good point though - Ceroc has a name for all moves however confusion can be created when travelling to different MJ organisations.

Nicky Haslem had great fun when she taught over here about two years ago - said the name of a move and every one went off and did something different to the move she was teaching.......you know,

The next move starts off like a sway...........and everyone was elsewhere.....


Naming moves is tough though.....usually the name of a move (to fully describe it) would take longer to pronounce than actually dance....

What do others think...time for a poll....

MartinHarper
2nd-August-2004, 10:47 AM
I didn't understand your answer, Gordon...

Offering my left hand behind should lead the lady to take it - that seems to be the standard rule in offering hands, and it cuts across shoulderdrop, catapult, whirlitzer, pretzel, etc, etc. In all these other moves, the lady takes up the offered hand with her [B}free[/B] hand. In the shoulderdrop, the lady takes up the offered hand with her right hand, which is not free - it's on my shoulder.

So, what is it that tells the lady to take up my offered left hand with her right hand, as opposed to taking it with her left?

Gordon J Pownall
2nd-August-2004, 01:23 PM
I didn't understand your answer, Gordon...

Offering my left hand behind should lead the lady to take it - that seems to be the standard rule in offering hands, and it cuts across shoulderdrop, catapult, whirlitzer, pretzel, etc, etc. In all these other moves, the lady takes up the offered hand with her [B}free[/B] hand. In the shoulderdrop, the lady takes up the offered hand with her right hand, which is not free - it's on my shoulder.

So, what is it that tells the lady to take up my offered left hand with her right hand, as opposed to taking it with her left?

On beats four and five both couples side step right hand away from shoulder and then hand back to shoulder (see earlier for what happens)

On beat six, the man lets go of the lady's hand with his right hand (leaving the lady's hand on his shoulder and at the same time as he steps forward, his left hand is offered behind the back and the lady (hopefully) allows her right hand to 'drop' into his left hand.....

Does that help....???


(Why do I know so much about this nasty move...???)

Gordon J Pownall
2nd-August-2004, 01:24 PM
I didn't understand your answer, Gordon...

Offering my left hand behind should lead the lady to take it - that seems to be the standard rule in offering hands, and it cuts across shoulderdrop, catapult, whirlitzer, pretzel, etc, etc. In all these other moves, the lady takes up the offered hand with her [B}free[/B] hand. In the shoulderdrop, the lady takes up the offered hand with her right hand, which is not free - it's on my shoulder.

So, what is it that tells the lady to take up my offered left hand with her right hand, as opposed to taking it with her left?


AAhhh...on a re-read - the man steps forward on beats six......that allows the ladies hand to drop...

MartinHarper
2nd-August-2004, 02:25 PM
Hmm, that makes sense. Though I'm stepping forward on my left foot, so I suppose I should make sure I step forward squarely so that my right shoulder moves forward. I guess I'll play with it some more, and see what happens. Thanks for the help! :)

Nicola
3rd-August-2004, 12:24 PM
My question is though - if it's a beginner's move and everything is supposed to be standard from Ceroc venue to Ceroc venue, shouldn't it be the same for all Ceroc venues?

Why does the Shoulder Drop get to vary so much? :confused:

HI David!

The reason the shoulder drop varies is because it was an intermediate move of which there are about 4 variations. WE were told to teach a shoulder drop but weren't told which variation, therefore you'll probably find different teachers taking different variations.

I've clarified this with ceroc now and the one listed earlier in this post is the correct version for beginners! :whistle:

Blame Ceroc.........it's never the teachers fault! :wink:

DavidY
3rd-August-2004, 12:34 PM
HI David!

The reason the shoulder drop varies is because it was an intermediate move of which there are about 4 variations. WE were told to teach a shoulder drop but weren't told which variation, therefore you'll probably find different teachers taking different variations.

I've clarified this with ceroc now and the one listed earlier in this post is the correct version for beginners! :whistle:

Blame Ceroc.........it's never the teachers fault! :wink:Thanks for clarifying Nicola, that makes more sense now. :hug:

(But how many other teachers did the same as you and have clarified which version they should teach? :whistle: )

Nicola
3rd-August-2004, 12:45 PM
Thanks for clarifying Nicola, that makes more sense now. :hug:

(But how many other teachers did the same as you and have clarified which version they should teach? :whistle: )

To be fair, initially we were told to choose for ourselves and it didn't matter. However I think only now we can see that this is confusing people and it should be standardised. I think Ceroc have now sent out the notations on how it should be taught.

Things can only get better! :grin:

Gordon J Pownall
3rd-August-2004, 01:36 PM
To be fair, initially we were told to choose for ourselves and it didn't matter. However I think only now we can see that this is confusing people and it should be standardised. I think Ceroc have now sent out the notations on how it should be taught.

They have indeed and the move is still pants (IMHO).

There continues to be much discussion on the beginners moves and the teaching thereof in Ceroc. I am sure that there will be more changes as time goes on however one thing is important and that is feedback from the dancers themselves. :worthy:

As much as we, as teachers, can say what is easier / more sensible / better to teach, we also need to ensure that the needs of the dancers are met, particularly as it is the beginners class that will make or break a newbie. :clap:

Get it right and a person can be hooked for life :clap: - get it wrong and the person may be put off all forms of dance for ever....... :angry:

I do like to think that we get it right 99% of the time however with change comes the inevitable discomfort for a while - as a teacher I do rely on the class giving me feedback regularly and letting me know if I'm getting it right or not. :hug:

At Ceroc Metro :worthy: we have regular 'prize draw' questionnaires to encourage feedback. I am very much of the opinion that a teacher is a facilitator of a members club night out and as such I am there to make sure the members have the best night possible - this means responding to them... :cheers:

Bigger Andy
3rd-August-2004, 01:42 PM
as a teacher I do rely on the class giving me feedback regularly and letting me know if I'm getting it right or not. :hug:

Gordy,

I haven't been to Maidstone for a while but on the occasions that I did ...

... you were getting it right [IMHO] :flower: :hug: :worthy: :clap:

Gordon J Pownall
3rd-August-2004, 01:46 PM
Gordy,

I haven't been to Maidstone for a while but on the occasions that I did ...

... you were getting it right [IMHO] :flower: :hug: :worthy: :clap:

Cheers Mate - I'm trying to put a face to the name.......come and see me again soon - we will soon be a nosmo venue......

Oh...and in the interests of brotherly :hug: :hug: love, have some rep as well..... :flower: :hug: :hug:

Bigger Andy
3rd-August-2004, 01:50 PM
... a nosmo venue ...


I haven't heard of that !

What's one of those when it's at home ?

under par
3rd-August-2004, 01:51 PM
I haven't heard of that !

What's one of those when it's at home ?

no smoking.....I haven't heard it as NOSMO before either :confused:

Gordon J Pownall
3rd-August-2004, 01:56 PM
no smoking.....I haven't heard it as NOSMO before either :confused:

Sorry guys (and gals)....

When I worked for social services in London, I shared an office with three other social workers / care managers.

Of the four of us, three of us smoked and one didn't. The one who didn't had the surname of King......

Very quickly (within about ten seconds of him starting) he acquired the nickname of Nosmo - as in :-...........


NOSMO KING


So that's what a nosmo venue / office / other place is....... :whistle:

Rhythm King
6th-August-2004, 02:30 PM
Sorry guys (and gals)....

Very quickly (within about ten seconds of him starting) he acquired the nickname of Nosmo - as in :-...........


NOSMO KING


also a 1920s-30s music hall artiste! No I don't remember him first hand, before anyone comments!!