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stewart38
29th-July-2004, 11:28 AM
I danced with a women recently and she told me many times that "she was crap" her words.

Now this was her first time and it put me off

She wasn’t a great dancer but it was her first time so, so what ?

I tried to encourage her, but then I wonder why we do that ?

I've done this. I must have apologized 6 or 7 times at the Hammersmith champs when I was paired of with a teacher in the lucky dip !

There is a difference between saying 'be gentle I’m a beginner' and constantly reminding your partner at what ever level your not good enough to dance with that person !

I could have told her yes you are crap and that dance teacher could have said to me yes your not very good but it wouldn't help would it. :sick:

Emma
29th-July-2004, 11:45 AM
I think people do it for lots of reasons..

Some beause they are very new and feel overwhelmed
Some because they are very shy and feel like they have to 'warn' people
Some because they are very modest and genuinely don't believe they are any good
Some because they like it when people say 'no, you're not, you're good'
And some for a mixture of the above....:nice:

I think when it's the first reason (and it sounds as though the lady you were dancing with was in this category) then all you can do is be as encouraging as possible, tell them they *aren't* crap and do all those wonderful things to make them relax and enjoy themselves that people did for us when we were starting out and were so nervous we couldn't remember our own names, let alone dance :)

Peter
29th-July-2004, 11:55 AM
We do it to encourage .... and build morale


... and hope that others do the same for us ...

bigdjiver
29th-July-2004, 12:11 PM
I danced with a women recently and she told me many times that "she was crap" her words. ... Responses I might use:
"Oh, good! I need somebody to look up to me sometimes."
"Don't remind me of when I started"

"This is called the slow comb, you just stand there and wiggle until I push you back. Hey, we're dancing! Hey, we're looking cool ... "
and /or Simple one handed bounce in and out. Repeat "hey, we're dancing ..."

and/or Recurrent hand jive motion whilst going down and up. It does not matter if she just stands up. " Hey..."

and/or This is called a freeze. "Hey ..."

If I can raise a smile, and I usually can, "If you are enjoying yourself you are doing it right."
I often use the speech about it being a male led dance, and it being my job to lead her correctly, "Just go where I put you".

Rachel
29th-July-2004, 12:16 PM
... and/or Recurrent hand jive motion whilst going down and up.... I'm definitely not with it today ... I've just been trying to figure out which move could possibly be called the 'Redcurrant hand jive'!
R.

Daisy Chain
29th-July-2004, 12:36 PM
I danced with a women recently and she told me many times that "she was crap" her words.



There used to be one man who gave me the creeps. He always used to ask for a dance by saying that he wasn't good enough to dance with me. One week (I must have had a touch of PMT), I agreed that no, he wasn't good enough to dance with me. :whistle: Errr.....he has never asked me to dance since. Result!

Personally, I'd never tell a man that I wasn't good enough to dance with him.............................I'd let him find out for himself and then agree with him that all my errors must be his fault as he is leading. After all, whatever is wrong, it's always the man's fault.

Daisy
(A fussy little flower)

ChrisA
29th-July-2004, 12:40 PM
There used to be one man who gave me the creeps. He always used to ask for a dance by saying that he wasn't good enough to dance with me. One week (I must have had a touch of PMT), I agreed that no, he wasn't good enough to dance with me. :whistle: Errr.....he has never asked me to dance since. Result!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

ChrisA
29th-July-2004, 12:51 PM
I danced with a women recently and she told me many times that "she was crap" her words.

Now this was her first time and it put me off

Er, why on earth would it put you off? :really: :confused:

Lots of 1st time beginners say this - it's because they feel awkward, uncoordinated, foolish - any one of a number of things people feel when they start learning something. :blush: :blush:

If I'm taxiing and they say this to me, I sometimes grin at them and say "you're supposed to be crap for the first few weeks, otherwise we'd have nothing to teach you". That always gets a smile and breaks the ice. :nice:

Or I may say "It's completely normal to feel crap at the beginning but don't let that put you off - you should have seen me when I started, I was dreadful" :D

Or if I can tell they're going to be able to learn to follow pretty quickly, I stick my neck out and say "I promise you, you won't feel so bad by the end of this track" - and watch them start to get a grin a mile wide as they start to dance. :clap:

IMHO, if you're an experienced dancer and you can't do/say something along these lines, and in particular if it puts you off when they talk like that, then you shouldn't dance with first time beginners. And it's not enough just to say they aren't crap, cos it sounds like you're bullsh1tt1ng them, which will make it worse for them.

Chris

Daisy Chain
29th-July-2004, 01:04 PM
Just need to check whether it wrong of me but, in the lesson last week, I moved onto a man who beamed and greeted me with the words "Complete Rookie"

I beamed back at him and stated "Complete Expert"

Sorry Gus. No wonder some beginners don't come back for a 2nd week.

Daisy.

philsmove
29th-July-2004, 01:09 PM
The exact words you use do not matter, but gently you need to explain

The best way to improve your dancing is to dance

Your first lessons are always then most difficult

And next time you dance with them let them know their dancing has improved

Lynn
29th-July-2004, 01:30 PM
I'm afraid I felt like starting every dance at Southport with an apology, simply because I thought everyone there was more experienced than me,to 'warn them' I suppose. And when I was dancing with forumites who I knew were good dancers, I felt bad when I got a move wrong - but - they just smiled, said it was their fault (even when it wasn't), etc - really nice. :hug: I don't think I had a single bad dance and by the end of the weekend wasn't apologising any more, or not as much.

Pammy
29th-July-2004, 01:49 PM
IMHO, if you're an experienced dancer and you can't do/say something along these lines, and in particular if it puts you off when they talk like that, then you shouldn't dance with first time beginners. And it's not enough just to say they aren't crap, cos it sounds like you're bullsh1tt1ng them, which will make it worse for them.

:yeah:

People who aren't used to touching and communicating in a "dance" way often need some sort of ice-breaker before the dance begins. "Would you like to dance" "Yes please" isn't quite enough and so a comment like "By the way I'm crap" is just a persons way of trying to create some sort of go-between and relationship between you as people. Newbies are people and not "dancers" as such, and are used to dealing with controntational situations that make them feel uneasy by talking. Saying you're crap is a way of being submissive and looking for reassurance and support. It's not such a big thing to give if you're an experienced dancer, is it? :confused:

Andy McGregor
29th-July-2004, 02:18 PM
At least a couple of times a night I get women telling me "I'm not very good". My answer is usually "who told you that?" More often that not we have a nice dance - at the end of the track I ususally say to the woman something like "I thought your dancing was good, you might like to tell whoever said you weren't very good that it's him that can't lead you" :devil:

Pammy
29th-July-2004, 02:26 PM
At least a couple of times a night I get women telling me "I'm not very good". My answer is usually "who told you that?" More often that not we have a nice dance - at the end of the track I ususally say to the woman something like "I thought your dancing was good, you might like to tell whoever said you weren't very good that it's him that can't lead you" :devil:

That's great, that would really buck up someones confidence. We can all remember back to the days when the first person said "You're good!" and you'd go home with your head hardly fitting through the door and would be telling all your friends for a week. Well done Andy! :hug:

Sparkles
29th-July-2004, 02:48 PM
I think comments like that are just nervousness. They state something that is obvious for almost any beginner as a brief apology, because they're nervous, a way of saying "be gentle with me", whatever. I've been dancing for years, but when I was a beginner at Ceroc I did it too, it was just nerves and not wanting to look foolish.

I've found that as a taxi dancer the best thing to do is to be honest. I don't try and flatter beginners with false praise because I want them to learn and get better - and if they already think they know it all they won't. So with everyone I dance with I try and find something they do well and pick up on that - this calms them down and also makes them more receptive to constructive criticism:
I had a lady in the revision class last night that was having terrible trouble with the moves, so on the next rotation of ladies I made sure she was dancing with me and when I did the move with her it was almost a complete disaster, but she did the most wonderful spin! So, very quietly, I said to her "you spin beautifully" and she had the most almighty grin - and spent the rest of my taxi-session asking me and the other taxi dancer questions and practicing, and she was so much better by the end!

All it takes is someone to be understanding, offer a little encouragement and praise where it's due and soon enough beginners stop doing the 'I'm crap' comment before a freestyle dance because they know that there are things they can do well and things they can work on just like everyone else. Some of the best dancers I know will be the first to admit that they still have a lot to learn...

stewart38
29th-July-2004, 04:05 PM
Er, why on earth would it put you off? :really: :confused:

Lots of 1st time beginners say this - it's because they feel awkward, uncoordinated, foolish - any one of a number of things people feel when they start learning something. :blush: :blush:

Chris

No I think there is a big big difference between "I'm new or be gentle or i'm not good at this" mentioned once or twice against a constant Im no good in a dance which lets be fair doesn't happen that often. I think the word "crap" really bought it home.

However it can happen at all levels, a women said to me why I don't do more drops, I said I never really learnt them and she started to show me some which was fine. If I said Im so sorry I cant do drops 7 times during the rest of the dance/s that would be different

In the 10yrs of dancing i've only walked of twice because Im afraid the girl was so bad she would cause an injury to me or her and each time Ive apologized.

Pammy
29th-July-2004, 04:36 PM
No I think there is a big big difference between "I'm new or be gentle or i'm not good at this" mentioned once or twice against a constant Im no good in a dance which lets be fair doesn't happen that often. I think the word "crap" really bought it home.

I still say "Sorry" or "I'm so sorry" if I bugger something up. Are you sure that the look on your face wasn't why she was saying I'm crap. Sometimes I've found that if I dance with someone who makes me feel crap I keep trying to apologise and perhaps make them soften towards me. You get a move wrong and you see the look on the persons face, so you say "don't mind me, I'm useless" and it's said tongue in cheek, but half meaning because you feel the need to make excuses and in effect, lighten up the catalogue of disasterous moves! You did say you was put off by what she'd said, so perhaps she could sense that in your body language, hence kept on trying to compensate for being a beginner, by stating "I'm crap" at various points through the dance. If you feel uncomfy, sometimes that's what people do.

ChrisA
29th-July-2004, 05:28 PM
No I think there is a big big difference between "I'm new or be gentle or i'm not good at this" mentioned once or twice against a constant Im no good in a dance which lets be fair doesn't happen that often. I think the word "crap" really bought it home.


Let me suggest a motto: "When in a hole, stop digging."

If you, a dancer of 10 years' standing, have to listen to a 1st-time beginner saying they're crap, or expressing their feeling of awkwardness in any damn way whatsoever, then your job is to do everything in your power to make the dance as enjoyable and fun as damn well possible, and leave them feeling a little less crap.

It is not to feel "put off" yourself, poor diddums.

If you can't do that, don't dance with beginners.

Oh yes, and what Pammy said about body language... :mad:

Chris

Lory
29th-July-2004, 05:41 PM
I think I'd quite endear myself to the dancer who said 'that' :)

at least it's better that one I got last night........ A man asked me to dance, he was obviously a beginner and wasn't at all clear what he was trying to lead but I tried to follow as 'best' as I could, smiling nicely, in a non critical way! :innocent:
Then he chirped up, 'Oh! I saw you dancing with some other guys before and I thought you could do it! I replyed sweetly, 'don't be fooled by all you see! :wink: :rofl: Who was I to disillusion the guy? :innocent:

MartinHarper
29th-July-2004, 05:55 PM
Of course, one can do everything in one's power to make the dance great... AND feel a little put off. A learning point for non-Ceroc life: I'll have to remember not to apologise to the plumber for my lack of plumbing ability.

Body language is a good point. When something happens that I don't expect (whether it's good or bad), I always get a half-second flash of consternation across my face, and that does get apologies. I'm working on replacing this with the little yelp of surprise I find so attractive in followers... :)

Sparkles
29th-July-2004, 09:25 PM
don't dance with beginners...

after all, if one can't stand the heat... :wink:

Forte
29th-July-2004, 09:26 PM
Er, why on earth would it put you off? :really: :confused:

Lots of 1st time beginners say this - it's because they feel awkward, uncoordinated, foolish - any one of a number of things people feel when they start learning something. :blush: :blush:

If I'm taxiing and they say this to me, I sometimes grin at them and say "you're supposed to be crap for the first few weeks, otherwise we'd have nothing to teach you". That always gets a smile and breaks the ice. :nice:

Or I may say "It's completely normal to feel crap at the beginning but don't let that put you off - you should have seen me when I started, I was dreadful" :D

Or if I can tell they're going to be able to learn to follow pretty quickly, I stick my neck out and say "I promise you, you won't feel so bad by the end of this track" - and watch them start to get a grin a mile wide as they start to dance. :clap:

IMHO, if you're an experienced dancer and you can't do/say something along these lines, and in particular if it puts you off when they talk like that, then you shouldn't dance with first time beginners. And it's not enough just to say they aren't crap, cos it sounds like you're bullsh1tt1ng them, which will make it worse for them.

Chris


Sigh! I can't wait to dance with you! :flower: You say such lovely things and are a real dance ambassador. :worthy:

stewart38
29th-July-2004, 11:22 PM
Let me suggest a motto: "When in a hole, stop digging."

If you, a dancer of 10 years' standing, have to listen to a 1st-time beginner saying they're crap, or expressing their feeling of awkwardness in any damn way whatsoever, then your job is to do everything in your power to make the dance as enjoyable and fun as damn well possible, and leave them feeling a little less crap.

It is not to feel "put off" yourself, poor diddums.

If you can't do that, don't dance with beginners.

Oh yes, and what Pammy said about body language... :mad:

Chris

why do threads now always soon go to personal attack ?

you dont know me chris so you dont know what i say. I always offer support and will continue to dance with beginners.

ChrisA
29th-July-2004, 11:42 PM
why do threads now always soon go to personal attack ?

you dont know me chris so you dont know what i say. I always offer support and will continue to dance with beginners.

Well I'm sorry if you feel it was a personal attack. It wasn't. It was an expression of my irritation with what sounded to me like an appallingly self-indulgent attitude towards beginners.

I'll say it again:

If a 1st time beginner is feeling awkward and keeps saying she's crap, even several times, you have no business feeling "put off". You are the one with all the experience and know-how, she is a 1st timer, for heavens sake.

In those situations, as the saying goes, "it's not about you".

If you can't cope with it, or if you aren't capable of making the beginner feel "not crap" (and this of course may not even be possible in extreme cases, although there are incredibly few of those, in my experience), then I find myself very much in the position of sympathy with the beginner, not with you I'm afraid.

As far as not knowing what you say is concerned, well this is of course true. If you think I've misinterpreted you, and you're interested enough, feel free to re-express your point, because if you're not being self-indulgent, then I fail to understand where you're coming from in either of your posts on the subject of "feeling put-off".

Chris

ChrisA
29th-July-2004, 11:46 PM
Sigh! I can't wait to dance with you! :flower: You say such lovely things and are a real dance ambassador. :worthy:
You're most kind.

I try. I don't always succeed. But when I fail, I try (not always successfully, but increasingly so) to blame myself, not someone else. I can't improve others, but I can improve myself - so that's where I start.

Chris :hug:

stewart38
29th-July-2004, 11:49 PM
I'll say it again:

If a 1st time beginner is feeling awkward and keeps saying she's crap, even several times, you have no business feeling "put off". You are the one with all the experience and know-how, she is a 1st timer, for heavens sake.

In those situations, as the saying goes, "it's not about you".

If you can't cope with it, or if you aren't capable of making the beginner feel "not crap" (and this of course may not even be possible in extreme cases, although there are incredibly few of those, in my experience), then I find myself very much in the position of sympathy with the beginner, not with you I'm afraid.

As far as not knowing what you say is concerned, well this is of course true. If you think I've misinterpreted you, and you're interested enough, feel free to re-express your point, because if you're not being self-indulgent, then I fail to understand where you're coming from in either of your posts on the subject of "feeling put-off".

Chris

Try slagging someone else off im not responding in an open forum

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 12:04 AM
Try slagging someone else off im not responding in an open forum
I have no desire to slag anyone off. If it helps, then I withdraw, with apologies, the "poor diddums" reference. Though in the interests of balance, I would like to thank the person who gave me positive rep for it ;)

However, in open forum I can report that it has been suggested to me in a PM (it would be inappropriate to disclose from whom) that I stop being "bloody rude to people on the forum" and that "I do this to people again and again".

In the same PM I was also asked where I dance. Needless to say, I found this mildly threatening so I chose not to answer the question.

All I can say is that if there's a consensus that I am repeatedly rude to people (other than Andy and Trampy, obviously), then please would any of my victims take the trouble to PM me with an example, and I will be only too glad to apologise to them for any rudeness.

Chris :whistle:

MartinHarper
30th-July-2004, 12:16 AM
If you can't cope with (a beginner saying she's crap), or if you aren't capable of making the beginner feel "not crap", ...

I've carefully reviewed this thread, and was unable to find any post by Stewart indicating that he is incapable of coping with a self-deprecating beginner, or of boosting her self esteem. I was wondering where you picked that up from?

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 12:35 AM
I've carefully reviewed this thread, and was unable to find any post by Stewart indicating that he is incapable of coping with a self-deprecating beginner, or of boosting her self esteem. I was wondering where you picked that up from?
You're right. He has indicated no such opinion of himself, and nor do I offer one.

My position is that someone that's been dancing MJ for 10 years should not feel put off by a beginner saying that she's crap. He should be able to take it in his stride, and make the beginner feel less crap.

Maybe he did this, I don't know.

I just picked up on Stewart's comment about feeling put off, which struck me as a bit strange coming from an experienced dancer. And I asked why he felt put off, which he didn't really answer, other than to say that if the beginner had phrased her expression of awkwardness differently, he wouldn't have felt so put off.

Maybe it would be helpful to hear what it put him off doing. Or if he simply didn't understand why a beginner would refer to herself as crap, I and others have given plenty of explanation of why this is often the case.

Chris

TheTramp
30th-July-2004, 01:18 AM
(other than Andy and Trampy, obviously)
That's a bit crap, isn't it Andy!! :tears:

Trampy

Andy McGregor
30th-July-2004, 01:23 AM
All I can say is that if there's a consensus that I am repeatedly rude to people (other than Andy and Trampy, obviously), then please would any of my victims take the trouble to PM me with an example, and I will be only too glad to apologise to them for any rudeness.

Chris :whistle:

ChrisA can be rude to me any time he likes - and he often is. But he always gives me a reasoned argument. Of course that argument is usually flawed, probably on purpose, so I get the opportunity to gainsay ChrisA's point with even more rudeness ...

.. probably :confused:

But, ChrisA and I understand each others motivation. ChrisA is a sincere and earnest dancer who has a particular vision of the way the world should be - and I'm fickle and will do anything to get a laugh ...

Don't ask me why I'm like this, I wish I knew.

What point am I making? None that I'm aware of: but ChrisA is probably right, whatever it is that he's saying :wink:

p.s. ChrisA is a nice guy. Don't be confused by him disagreeing with you, he really does like everyone and want to think the best of them :hug:

p.p.s. ChrisA for Forum O.D.A. - move over Gus, you've been far too reasonable for too long :devil:

Andy McGregor
30th-July-2004, 01:34 AM
That's a bit crap, isn't it Andy!! :tears:

Trampy

We've been tarred with the same brush. What have we done to deserve that :confused:

Anyone remember what this thread was about?

Oh yes, I'm not good enough for you. Well, there's always a difference between partners. And that's what makes it fun. I recently danced with Mrs Ceroc (Linda Barker) and felt like there were buttons I wasn't pressing because I didn't know they were there. She was fabulous and did everything I led - but was there more I could have done for her? Will I ever know?

MartinHarper
30th-July-2004, 01:49 AM
People get put off by different things. Some people are put off by swearing. Some people are put off by shorts (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3290&page=4&highlight=shorts). I'm put off by lime green. Ghastly colour. Doesn't effect my dancing, though. Unless I get temporarilly blinded and dance them into a wall.

When I've been dancing MJ for ten years, should I no longer feel put off by someone wearing lime green? If I did still feel put off, would that be appallingly self-indulgent attitude? Should I no longer dance with such unfashionable people? :)

Feelings are just feelings.

under par
30th-July-2004, 02:39 AM
I'm definitely not with it today ... I've just been trying to figure out which move could possibly be called the 'Redcurrant hand jive'!
R.

:rofl: :rofl: You need some help :rofl: :kiss:

under par
30th-July-2004, 02:43 AM
[QUOTE=Daisy ChainPersonally, I'd never tell a man that I wasn't good enough to dance with him.............................I'd let him find out for himself and then agree with him that all my errors must be his fault as he is leading. After all, whatever is wrong, it's always the man's fault.

Daisy
(A fussy little flower)[/QUOTE]


ALWAYS the mans fault for not leading it properly.. that is what I say to every lady I dance with especially when Ive just trod on their toe or fluffed a move. :wink:

under par
30th-July-2004, 02:45 AM
The exact words you use do not matter, but gently you need to explain

The best way to improve your dancing is to dance

Your first lessons are always then most difficult

And next time you dance with them let them know their dancing has improved


:yeah: :yeah: :worthy:

under par
30th-July-2004, 02:58 AM
Let me suggest a motto: "When in a hole, stop digging."

If you, a dancer of 10 years' standing, have to listen to a 1st-time beginner saying they're crap, or expressing their feeling of awkwardness in any damn way whatsoever, then your job is to do everything in your power to make the dance as enjoyable and fun as damn well possible, and leave them feeling a little less crap.

It is not to feel "put off" yourself, poor diddums.

If you can't do that, don't dance with beginners.

Oh yes, and what Pammy said about body language... :mad:

Chris

When dancing locally I make a point of dancing with as many people as possible. That includes beginners and all those shy ones that sit 3 back from the dance floor.
Many make comments or state how bad they are or how few times they have danced.

I ask them to enjoy the dance follow my hands and tell them that any mistakes are down to me not leading properly.

It's amazing how good some of the dances are when you take the pressure off of the lady and how much the dance is appreciated after.

I like some of ChrisA's tactful helpful responses and will try to remember some of them too. :yeah:

quiet_flame
30th-July-2004, 04:36 AM
When dancing locally I make a point of dancing with as many people as possible. That includes beginners and all those shy ones that sit 3 back from the dance floor.
:yeah: Don't let them think becuase they hide at the back they are safe from the dance floor. Can't let the shy ones stay off the dance floor because (from personal experience) I find they end up being the loudest and most obnoxious dancers once they get the bug that is CMJ


It's amazing how good some of the dances are when you take the pressure off of the lady and how much the dance is appreciated after.

Totally agree with you here, I try to "wrong foot 'em" in other words completely distract them from their "begginner status".
I consider it a challenge: if they say they're crap, (cos I most definately am) I have to prove to them they are not crap and are perfectly capable dancers. For every "sorry" there's a laugh, for every apologetic look there's an "I don't care, you're a begginer". :D

In the end they have to have fun, I try to make them laugh so they understand there really isnt' a "right or wrong way" as such in CMJ, pobody's nerfect and really, I'm just a begginer (like trampy's free email accounts), cos I learn something new everday at Ceroc.

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 08:15 AM
so I get the opportunity to gainsay ChrisA's point with even more rudeness ...

Yep, I'd be worried if there was any break from this tradition... :D



ChrisA is a sincere and earnest dancer

You calling me "earnest", you old git? :angry: :devil:

Now that is the ultimate rudeness.



p.s. ChrisA is a nice guy. Don't be confused by him disagreeing with you, he really does like everyone and want to think the best of them :hug:

Don't you believe it. I am perfectly capable of disagreeing politely with someone and still thinking they're a complete ****er.

And of disagreeing rudely with someone and thinking they're a top bloke, too, of course. :whistle: :flower:

Chris

PS Please, not ODA. I don't like anything too official. UDA, maybe... I prefer to work freelance :devil:

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 08:42 AM
People get put off by different things. Some people are put off by swearing. Some people are put off by shorts (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3290&page=4&highlight=shorts). I'm put off by lime green. Ghastly colour. Doesn't effect my dancing, though. Unless I get temporarilly blinded and dance them into a wall.

When I've been dancing MJ for ten years, should I no longer feel put off by someone wearing lime green? If I did still feel put off, would that be appallingly self-indulgent attitude? Should I no longer dance with such unfashionable people? :)

Feelings are just feelings.

Well, I was interpreting the original words "it put me off" as implying a reduced inclination to, or a reduced ability to, dance sensitively with the beginner concerned.

As in "it put me off my food", or "it put him off his putt and he missed the hole".

If lime green doesn't affect your dancing, I would argue it doesn't put you off.

Comparing a colour preference (which presumably isn't dependent on one's dance abilities that develop over time) with the difference in the way an experienced dancer might react to a beginner's awkwardness, compared with the way a less experienced dancer might, is IMHO a rather facile argument.

But you're right, feelings are just feelings.

Here's a rhetorical question, though. Do you think a dancer who feels "put off" by a beginner's expression of her feelings of awkwardness is going to be less or more likely to be able to be sensitive to that beginner and give her a good experience?

I know, for example, that if I feel intimidated when dancing with one of the dance goddesses, I am to some extent inhibited and don't dance as well as I can. But I'm not in the least inhibited with beginners that say they're crap :D

Anyway, maybe let's put this to bed now. Getting a bit bored with it all now, as I expect lots of people are. :flower:

Chris

Pammy
30th-July-2004, 09:33 AM
Stuart. My feelings are, and I reiterate them, that you was put off by the ladies admission of being "crap", and in turn she could read your feelings of being "put off" through your body language, and so kept on feeling the need to admit to her short falls. What Chris is suggesting is that you change your approach so as to encourage, as opposed to being put off, and as such she would feel more confident and would no longer feel the need to say she's "crap".

Chris is a person who is to the point. He never says things behind peoples backs, which is something I admire. He's not being rude, just up front. There is a huge difference. Knowing Chris personally I can say that he always does his best to make those around him feel good; beginners & experts alike. Rudeness isn't in his nature.

I think the problem lies in that you was hoping for total agreement on the "being put off" feelings you had, but he (and I must say, so am I) were opposed to them, and offered an alternative. Perhaps you do not like the suggestions put forward; that is your choice, but please don't be insulted by them, or take those suggestions as being personal insults. They are, as I said, purely suggestions that could help both you and the ladies your dancing with. It's not something you should take personally, or is something worth falling out over, or reading too much into. Chris was just trying to help, and indeed answer the initial points raised in your original post, which is what I thought you wanted addressing.

Pamster :flower:

stewart38
30th-July-2004, 10:50 AM
Stuart. My feelings are, and I reiterate them, that you was put off by the ladies admission of being "crap", and in turn she could read your feelings of being "put off" through your body language, and so kept on feeling the need to admit to her short falls. What Chris is suggesting is that you change your approach so as to encourage, as opposed to being put off, and as such she would feel more confident and would no longer feel the need to say she's "crap".

Pamster :flower:

First Chris apologies re PM way out of order

2nd 'put off' is a wrong word I shouldn’t have used. I encouraged and danced with her later on. I hope my body language (and she thanked me on 2nd dance) would never suggest I was anyway disinterested in her concerns


The point of the Thread is some people maybe selling themselves short some don’t. Many beginners have told me what I’m doing wrong and that’s fine :tears:

bigdjiver
30th-July-2004, 11:11 AM
I often get the self-depreciating remark as soon as I ask a beginner to dance. I do not put this down to my "body language", but to the fact that the beginners have been watching the experienced dancers, and are full of the "Wow, they're all so good, I'll never be able to do that" factor.
It is a common occurance, and I am glad he gave us the chance to discuss it. This forum should be a place where we can seek help and share views. We are learners at different levels. I saw Stuart's post as a sign of sensitivity, not as a lack of it, and I see no cause whatsoever for anybody to reproach him.

ChrisA
30th-July-2004, 11:52 AM
First Chris apologies re PM way out of order

Thank you. No probs. :flower:



2nd 'put off' is a wrong word I shouldn’t have used. I encouraged and danced with her later on. I hope my body language (and she thanked me on 2nd dance) would never suggest I was anyway disinterested in her concerns

Fair enough.



The point of the Thread is some people may be selling themselves short some don’t.
Indeed, and this variation is very common. Some beginners just seem to get on with it, some are much more sensitive.

For the experienced dancer dancing with the more sensitive ones, it's especially important not to be phased by anything they do, but just to take it all in one's stride and ensure they have fun and are not challenged beyond where their confidence and ability allow. I can't comment on whether Pammy's points about body language apply to you, but they're very well worth bearing in mind. And not just with beginners, as I've learned to my cost - there are plenty of sensitive non-beginners out there :tears:

Chris

Sparkles
30th-July-2004, 12:11 PM
Does this mean we can all have a big group hug now? :hug:

under par
30th-July-2004, 12:40 PM
Does this mean we can all have a big group hug now? :hug:

:yeah: :kiss: :hug: :kiss: :hug: :yeah: :flower:

Sparkles
30th-July-2004, 12:43 PM
:yeah: :kiss: :hug: :kiss: :hug: :yeah: :flower:

Mmmm, hugs from Under Par :drool: :blush: :grin: