Strategies to keep beginners

[Gus]

Just found out that our local Ceroc club is giving away eight weeks of free entry to new members (as well as making their next freestyle free :sick: ). Is this a national Ceroc campaign? Has Ceroc finally turned into an altruistic charity or is this a localised attempt to keep beginners?

I wonder if it will work. Are beginners concerned about the cash outlay (and face it, £6 a week is a lot of money for something that can be scary) or are other factors more important?

[Andy McGregor]

Seems a bit cheap to me. They must have a long-term strategy. I wonder what it is :confused:

I've not seen this down here. And it costs £7 to get into some of our local Ceroc venues - that's £56 worth of freebies. I think I'll be a beginner too.

Seriously though, how will the regulars that pay £6 or £7 a night feel if beginners, who they are expected to have charity dances with, are getting it for free?

[cerocmetro]

Seems a bit cheap to me. They must have a long-term strategy. I wonder what it is :confused:

I've not seen this down here. And it costs £7 to get into some of our local Ceroc venues - that's £56 worth of freebies. I think I'll be a beginner too.

Seriously though, how will the regulars that pay £6 or £7 a night feel if beginners, who they are expected to have charity dances with, are getting it for free?


Why pay £6 or £7, we at CerocMetro offer it for £5. :whistle:
Also we offer incentives to newcomers. We also offer free entries to existing dancers who bring along newcomers.

What is wrong with offering free for a few weeks to encourage new blood. The life cycle of the average dancer is 7 months, we have to think of the future.

If existing dancers commited to two years, I would offer them free entries for a few weeks every year. It has to work both ways surely.

I sell annual passes, they work out at about £3 a night for the people who have them, how cheap do you want it? :wink:


Adam

[MartinHarper]

If it's Nationwide, it's not got as far as Ceroc Cheltenham yet.

Beginners have simpler lessons, teach good leading, following and floorcraft skills to advanced dancers, and aren't going to become part of the competition any time soon. Free lessons is a good start, but charitable advanced dancers should really be leaving tips too.

[philsmove]

Come to Bristol you can get a LeRoc lesson for £4

Most of the classes here do incentives

(e.g. bring a friend and get in free)

but the last The classes I attended did not need incentives; I don’t think you could have got another couple on the floor

The “issue “ in Bristol at the moment is keeping the interest of advanced dancers

And yes Adam, having watch the CerocMetro team at W S Mare :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :clap: :clap: :clap:

some of us are thinking of moving to Stevenage

Or at least forming a team down here

[Andy McGregor]

What is wrong with offering free for a few weeks to encourage new blood. The life cycle of the average dancer is 7 months, we have to think of the future.

I think offering free classes for beginners is brilliant. The only issue is the expectation of the established dancers. They pay full-price and help the beginners - well I do, anyway. I suppose some appreciation for those helpful established dancers would be nice.

I knew Adam charged £5 for the Jive Masters nights but didn't realise it was the same in all his venues. Well done Adam :clap: So why are some Ceroc classes charging 40% more than Ceroc Metro :confused:

Just to stay on-topic: what other strategies have been used to keep beginners coming back?

[Gus]

Just to stay on-topic: what other strategies have been used to keep beginners coming back?

Well we tried something a bit radical ..... using experienced and well trained Blitz Jivers (aka Taxi Dancers), paying attention to them all night, putting the revision session in a separate room, making sure they dont feel alone and talking to them as they leave :whistle: Yeah .. I know thats what you would expect as minimum standard but how many clubs have crew that havent got clue how to coach beginners? As an additional strategy, while we've been starting up, we've also had a team of at least 7 crew on hand each week and we've using a qualified MJ instructor to lead the revision class. So far seem to be working :grin:

[Tiggerbabe]

Well we tried something a bit radical .....Not sure if you're taking the Michael here, Gus, but.............
You're right, I don't think that's radical at all - and whilst having the revision class in a separate room is desirable, it's only possible if your venue has another room you can use. :whistle:
Up here, the revision class is always in another part of the venue, separate room in Stirling, Glasgow Uni (IIRC), and O'Donaghues. The Jumpin Jaks venues have loads of space available for the taxi dancers to use, the Invercarse, Dundee has space away from the main dance floor too. In fact the only venue I'm aware of that has the revision class on the same floor as the main dancers is 'Culter (and the dance floor there is SOOOOOOO long that it's not a problem at all)
Franck also has cd players available, for the taxis, so that the class can practice to music, which is very popular with the beginners :D

And Andy, I'm trying very hard not to reply to your "charity dances" comment as I know that you do dance with, encourage and help the beginners. I'm sure a lot of beginners who read (but don't post) the forum will be upset by comments like that :sad:

[TheTramp]

:yeah: What Sheena said.

And Andy.... Whatever you do mate. Don't mention 'lemons' when you're talking about your charity dances.

Trampy

[Gadget]

~and we've using a qualified MJ instructor ~
Isn't that another thread? :innocent:

I agree that free entrance to beginners is a good idea, but eight?? Maximum I would consider {if I was running an event} would be three:
First night, not sure.
Second night getting it a bit.
Third night should be hooked and wanting to come back.

To me, eight seems to put the venue in a "desperate" light - it also could put regulars off a bit: "they are getting in for free again?!" It would also not be condusive to keeping beginners after the eight have run out: It was good while it was free, but now I've been introduced to it & can do the basics I can go to any other venue or just stop since I don't think there is that much more to learn.

[Petal]

:D

And Andy, I'm trying very hard not to reply to your "charity dances" comment as I know that you do dance with, encourage and help the beginners. I'm sure a lot of beginners who read (but don't post) the forum will be upset by comments like that :sad:
You read my thoughts sheena, i thought this a bit harsh, and maybe everyone should remember they too were a beginner once upon a time. It's the type of comment i think would put newbies off coming back if they knew they were thought of as a "charity case".

[tsh]

Is the issue with having people come back in weeks 2-4, or is it the 6-10 (or whatever) week period?

I saw a large number of (I assume) first timers last night, who seemed completely overwhelmed by what they felt was expected of them - I wouldn't be suprised if they didn't come back, but that was based on seeing them at the end of the lesson, rather than the end of the night. Discount vouchers sort of work for this, since it's nice to be able to 'spend' them! Actual cost isn't so important, imo.

One thing which I found a bit lacking was the availibility of beginners workshops - I think there was one in a 2 month window (and I can't make it!).

Sean

[Andy McGregor]

And Andy, I'm trying very hard not to reply to your "charity dances" comment as I know that you do dance with, encourage and help the beginners. I'm sure a lot of beginners who read (but don't post) the forum will be upset by comments like that :sad:

Sorry :blush: It was just a throw-away line: not meant to be taken seriously. Bad choice of words: my mistake :tears:

What I was illustrating was that we might feel less inclined to dance with beginners if we'd paid to get in and knew they hadn't, and weren't going to for 8 weeks!

[ChrisA]

What I was illustrating was that we might feel less inclined to dance with beginners if we'd paid to get in and knew they hadn't, and weren't going to for 8 weeks!
Cobblers, IMHO :D

Some of the new beginners that start should be encouraged to stay whether they pay or not... I'll dance with them anyway :drool:

I had an awesome new beginner when I was taxiing a couple of weeks ago. One of the most naturally good followers I've come across. She could have gone straight into the intermediates as far as I was concerned... I'd have been delighted for her to get in for free for a few weeks, cos she'd be a total asset to the night as well as deserving some encouragement, not that she looked like she needed much...

Chris

[Gadget]

What I was illustrating was that we might feel less inclined to dance with beginners if we'd paid to get in and knew they hadn't, and weren't going to for 8 weeks!
:confused:
Less likley to dance with beginners because they paid less? So if an advanced dancer got in for free, you would be less likley to dance with them as well? And what about Taxis? It's part of the perks that you get in for free - are you less likley to dance with them because you actually paid to get in?

It seems that the issue you have is with beginners rather than paying. :devil:

[Andy McGregor]

Cobblers, IMHO :D

Some of the new beginners that start should be encouraged to stay whether they pay or not... I'll dance with them anyway :drool:

I had an awesome new beginner when I was taxiing a couple of weeks ago. One of the most naturally good followers I've come across. She could have gone straight into the intermediates as far as I was concerned... I'd have been delighted for her to get in for free for a few weeks, cos she'd be a total asset to the night as well as deserving some encouragement, not that she looked like she needed much...

Chris

And what about that dancer that hasn't a clue?; that you spend two tracks with and manage to keep smiling through them failing to get the most basic moves; the beginner that doesn't remember a thing and will need loads of help - and because you've been so friendly and helpful the beginner that asks you to dance with them two more times during the evening?

I'm not complaining about beginners, or them getting in for free. I'm saying that the organiser should, just occasionally, recognise the work his regulars do dancing with beginners and patiently showing them how to dance. Free entry once in a while, a drink, an ice-cream: or even just a "thank-you" :flower:

[Andy McGregor]

It seems that the issue you have is with beginners rather than paying. :devil:

I have no problem with beginners. They are tomorrows good dancers. My objective at any night is to dance with everyone in the room. My selection process at the start of a track is next-nearest-person-I-haven't-danced-with-yet. That means I usually dance with every beginner in the room. How many experienced dancers can put their hand on their heart and say that?

As I said above, if the organiser is offering beginners free entry, wouldn't it be nice to give something to his regulars too?

[ChrisA]

And what about that dancer that hasn't a clue?; that you spend two tracks with and manage to keep smiling through them failing to get the most basic moves; the beginner that doesn't remember a thing and will need loads of help - and because you've been so friendly and helpful the beginner that asks you to dance with them two more times during the evening?

I don't buy this. You're acting like a taxi dancer - very laudable but it's your choice to do this. Otherwise you could have one dance with them and when they ask you the second time you can nicely say that you've had several dances with them, and you'd like to dance with someone else at this time.


I'm not complaining about beginners, or them getting in for free. I'm saying that the organiser should, just occasionally, recognise the work his regulars do dancing with beginners and patiently showing them how to dance. Free entry once in a while, a drink, an ice-cream: or even just a "thank-you" :flower:

Well, this isn't the same point at all... you said:


What I was illustrating was that we might feel less inclined to dance with beginners if we'd paid to get in and knew they hadn't, and weren't going to for 8 weeks!

... which seems to imply to me that you're begrudging the fact that they're getting in for free and you're not.

But you've clarified that you don't mean that - fair enough.

However, my point remains - it's your choice to act like a TD with the beginners, so I don't see how the organiser somehow has a moral obligation to accord you a version of the privileges s/he accords to the actual taxis.

On my taxi nights I work damn hard to give the beginners as good a time as I can. When I'm not taxiing I dance with whom I please - which includes some of the beginners and almost all the people that ask me.

Chris

[Gus]

Not sure if you're taking the Michael here, Gus, but.............
You're right, I don't think that's radical at all - and whilst having the revision class in a separate room is desirable, it's only possible if your venue has another room you can use. :whistle:

Yup ... was Mick taking ... lots of venues I know either dont have the facility or just dont bother. My main bugbear is that the majority of Taxi dancers I have seen really dont know how to coach beginners. Not their fault, they just haven't been trained properly ... and we wonder why we loose 90 - 96% of beginners within a few months :sad:

[ChrisA]

I have no problem with beginners. They are tomorrows good dancers. My objective at any night is to dance with everyone in the room. My selection process at the start of a track is next-nearest-person-I-haven't-danced-with-yet. That means I usually dance with every beginner in the room. How many experienced dancers can put their hand on their heart and say that?

Certainly not me, but I don't make a virtue out of it as you do.

I feel I put a lot back. I do dance with beginners, even when I'm not taxiing; I work damn hard when I am on duty, and I rarely refuse a dance, so I also put up with the injuries from a lot of yanking about that I get. :( I also hardly ever get perved at :tears: :devil:

So when I'm not taxiing, I'm there mostly for me.


As I said above, if the organiser is offering beginners free entry, wouldn't it be nice to give something to his regulars too?

Maybe... but I bet very few regulars give as much back as you do, judging by your MO above. So who deserves the organiser's beneficence? Should some get more than others?

Chris

[spindr]

I'm not complaining about beginners, or them getting in for free. I'm saying that the organiser should, just occasionally, recognise the work his regulars do dancing with beginners and patiently showing them how to dance. Free entry once in a while, a drink, an ice-cream: or even just a "thank-you" :flower:

I think at least one set of organisers charges less if you turn up and help dance with the beginners at the beginners' class, than if you just turn up for the intermediates.

SpinDr.

[MartinHarper]

On my very first MJ night (Ceroc Cheltenham), I didn't ask anyone to dance, and the only offer of a freestyle dance was from the person who'd invited me along. Personally I was happy at that - I was guaging the surroundings, looking at the dancers, and getting comfortable. I wasn't hanging round the edge of the dancefloor, so I wasn't surprised not to get any offers.

By my second night (Malvern), I was ready to start asking folks, and there was freestyle within the classes, which was nice.

Is this atypical?

[Gus]

I agree that free entrance to beginners is a good idea, but eight?? .......To me, eight seems to put the venue in a "desperate" light

Ettiquette prevents me from commenting ... after all, it might be said that I now run a competing event ...... and I dont have to give away free entry to my freestyles :whistle: :innocent: :wink:

Confucious he say " You get what you pay for"

[Emma]

Isn't that another thread? :innocent:
nah, I think he's referring to this :wink:

[mick]

When I started, I did a lot of beginner classes and a workshop. I am quite an experienced dancer, but I still felt very uncomfortable, for several weeks, when I progressed to intermediate classes.
I think beginners should be strongle encouraged to master all the basic moves before progressing to intermediate.
I would think that a lot of people are put off by this, and it must be hard, demeaning to go back to beginners classes when you have tried and failed miserably at intermediate.
Or perhaps I'm just a slow learner.

[bigdjiver]

Just found out that our local Ceroc club is giving away eight weeks of free entry to new members (as well as making their next freestyle free :sick: ). Is this a national Ceroc campaign? ...
Not national.
Could be a brilliant experiment. Beginners tend to be the best recruits, and it is easier to recruit for a low cost evening. (there are always associated costs for an evening out) This could be the way to grow a venue at the maximum rate possible, at minimum cost.

[Emma]

I think at least one set of organisers charges less if you turn up and help dance with the beginners at the beginners' class, than if you just turn up for the intermediates....I suppose the above is a kind of less formalised taxi dancing, really.

[Jive Brummie]

However, my point remains - it's your choice to act like a TD with the beginners, so I don't see how the organiser somehow has a moral obligation to accord you a version of the privileges s/he accords to the actual taxis.

Chris


Does that mean Taxi Dancer or is it an abbreviation of another word beginning with 'T' and ending with 'D'..... :whistle:

............sorry Andy, couldn't resist it!!!!

Good thread this Gus. But I do have one problem with it. Is it just me or are beginners getting a bit of a bad rep here? I'm not pointing fingers or anything like that and I'm not trying to be offensive in any way to anyone, but the way some folk speak of beginners, you'd think they were second class citizens....and they're 100% NOT!!

One thing I've found out recently is that dancing with beginners has without doubt improved my own dancing and along the way, had the knock on effect of meeting loads of fantastic new people. Like most things, miracles don't happen over night, and so, if you have a beginner that doesn't 'get-it' as quick as the next one, they may require a wee-bit more attention..... and that in my opinion shouldn't be looked upon as being a hastle, more of a compliment that they're asking you for help in the first place and not mr or mrs X....

All the beginners I've had contact with recently, bar none have been fantastic, and each one for different reasons, enthusiasm, fun, keeness to learn etc etc....if I could bottle that and sell it, I'd be minted!!

So, after all that, if it takes a few free lessons to keep these great dancers of tomorrow, then so be it............... and they'll probably bring their pals as well :wink:

It's an old and well used saying but ..... we really were all beginners once.

:flower:

[Andy McGregor]

Does that mean Taxi Dancer or is it an abbreviation of another word beginning with 'T' and ending with 'D'..... :whistle:

............sorry Andy, couldn't resist it!!!!

Is this my week for being misunderstood?

I think beginners are important. On any night I probably dance with the beginners more than most of the taxis. BUT, I think that an organiser who seems to be giving so much away to beginners and nothing to his experienced dancers has missed something very important - to reward loyalty :tears:

[Gus]

nah, I think he's referring to this :wink:

Good god woman ... where did you get that photo from?? :blush: That was taken back in 1999 at our (short lived) Congleton venue .... happy days. :waycool: My demo on the photo is still a Ceroc crew member I think and still of lovely dancer.

Not sure what its got to do with the discussion through. Think the point I was making that we are (for a while) using a fully qualified Instructor to support the Taxi dancers during the beginners revision session ... dont know many (any?) clubs that do this. Its a bit of a 'sledgehammer to crack a nut' but I'm hoping it pays dividends :)

[Simon r]

Does that mean Taxi Dancer or is it an abbreviation of another word beginning with 'T' and ending with 'D'..... :whistle:

............sorry Andy, couldn't resist it!!!!
:yeah:
Good thread this Gus. But I do have one problem with it. Is it just me or are beginners getting a bit of a bad rep here? I'm not pointing fingers or anything like that and I'm not trying to be offensive in any way to anyone, but the way some folk speak of beginners, you'd think they were second class citizens....and they're 100% NOT!!

All the beginners I've had contact with recently, bar none have been fantastic, and each one for different reasons, enthusiasm, fun, keeness to learn etc etc....if I could bottle that and sell it, I'd be minted!!


It's an old and well used saying but ..... we really were all beginners once.

:flower:
Bill and Becks make a point that we should dance with all new members and i agree that they are second to none in importance as these are the dancers that in the future will make or break our venues.

When were you a beginner you just seemed to appear ;)

[Gus]

... Is it just me or are beginners getting a bit of a bad rep here? I'm not pointing fingers or anything like that and I'm not trying to be offensive in any way to anyone, but the way some folk speak of beginners, you'd think they were second class citizens....and they're 100% NOT!!

Agree totally with you ... some clubs see beginners at best as cash or, at worst, an inconvenience .. as to some club members. In reality they are what keeps clubs going and are the future dance partners for those who initially try to avoid them.




One thing I've found out recently is that dancing with beginners has without doubt improved my own dancing

Sorry, on this point I have to say that my experiences have been very different. A fair percentage of beginners will end up backleading, pulling me the wrong way, requiring me to have to continually compensate and loose my dancing rhythm. I enjoy the teaching but for the most part I have to be honest and say I don’t always enjoy the dancing itself.

[Emma]

Good god woman ... where did you get that photo from?? :blushI found it, the other day, on a site which contains many dancer's bios not updated since 2001 :wink:


Not sure what its got to do with the discussion through. Think the point I was making that we are (for a while) using a fully qualified Instructor to support the Taxi dancers during the beginners revision session ... dont know many (any?) clubs that do this. Its a bit of a 'sledgehammer to crack a nut' but I'm hoping it pays dividends :)Well..you didn't make it clear, I actually thought you meant that the *teacher* was a qualified instructor...you :flower:

...besides...I just needed an excuse to post the pic!! :waycool:

[DavidB]

As a leader, I generally find beginners aren't that dangerous to dance with. Certainly nowhere near as bad as some intermediates. They don't shake their hand. They don't take huge steps and expect you to catch them. They don't suddenly go into drops. At worst they might grip your hand, and I can get out of this. And they are still impressed by First Moves & Yoyos!

(It might be completely different for beginner men/experienced ladies.)


I'm full of admiration for people like Andy & Marc who seem to dance with everyone. I don't have the energy.

David

[philsmove]

Personally I was happy at that - I was guaging the surroundings,

For those of you who have not been to Cheltenham, the surroundings are indeed stunning :waycool:

I was also blown away by my first trip, and yes the only person to ask me to dance was the person I went with :kiss:

[DavidY]

And it costs £7 to get into some of our local Ceroc venues ~SNIP~ How will the regulars that pay £6 or £7 a night feel ...?
Why pay £6 or £7, we at CerocMetro offer it for £5. :whistle:
From Ceroc Metro's home page (http://www.cerocmetro.com/):
Ceroc is:
~SNIP~Cheap: where else can you go out for an evening for £7? :confused: So what does a regular weekday class cost at Ceroc Metro then?
Is £5 a special rate for beginners? Or is the £7 mentioned on the home page the normal cost of a freestyle night rather than a weekday class?

(Or have I missed something obvious here?) :blush: :confused:

[MartinHarper]

It must be hard, demeaning to go back to beginners classes when you have tried and failed miserably at intermediate.

I did this once, as there was a shortage of intermediate guys. I didn't feel demeaned by failing miserably, and the people I danced with were very understanding. I actually felt I learnt a lot, because it was so challenging - would have been demoralising if I'd have kept trying, but with just the one attempt, I enjoyed it.

[ChrisA]

I did this once, as there was a shortage of intermediate guys. I didn't feel demeaned by failing miserably, and the people I danced with were very understanding. I actually felt I learnt a lot, because it was so challenging - would have been demoralising if I'd have kept trying, but with just the one attempt, I enjoyed it. :cheers:

Good for you!

It's not at all demeaning to have a go at something, decide you're not ready for it, and drop back a level for a while.

There are no hard and fast rules in this, you know. There are a number of beginners where I taxi who are on the borderline of whether they'd benefit more from continuing with the beginners/beginners review classes or doing the occasional intermediate class. Sometimes they ask me if they're ready to move up, and if I think they could, I just say to have a go at the class, and if they find it too hard, drop out and come back to the beginners.

I think the point is to make it all no big deal at all, keep everything very relaxed.

Unfortunately, it's only the ones who are sensitive to their own level that ask in the first place. There plenty of beginners that really shouldn't try the intermediates yet, but insist on doing so and never master the basics :tears:

Chris

[mick]

: There plenty of beginners that really shouldn't try the intermediates yet, but insist on doing so and never master the basics :tears:

Chris
Thats what I was trying to say. U put it better than me.
I've seen beginners doing the intermediate class at their first night of mj. Of course there are some dancers who can do this, but I've come across some pretty clueless dancers also.

[mick]

"Compare that with Straight to Number One (original mix), which we were made to dance to last weekend at the LeRoc 2000 Modern Jive competition (final, Open section) - which is 188bpm. Now, that was fast

Trampy"

Here's an idea.
play a few tracks at 180bpm

[Andy McGregor]

Rule 1 Teacher is ALWAYS right
Ruke 2 When a Teacher is wrong ... see Rule1

I can sympathise with that incident totaly. During Teacher training it is(was) custom for the trainee teachers to help out the Taxi dancers at a local club. Iw as doing this at Fulham .. showing the intial grip and how to get into a first move. The lead taxi dancer watching we with an expression that could only be described as mild contempt and .. as I finished the talk through ... proceeded to teach the hold totaly differently commenting that "the theory is fine but in practice ..." etc. etc. Must admit that its the closest I've ever come to decking someone at a MJ event :angry:

I can remember a night (not Ceroc) where I went to an established class where nobody knew me. During the beginners lesson the taxi dancer went to great lengths to show me how to bounce my hand up and down properly and do that side-to-side foowork thing during the countdown to the start of the routine - I think I'd nearly got the knack of it by the end of the lesson :devil:

I even considered doing the beginners consolidation...

[Sparkles]

I can remember a night (not Ceroc) where I went to an established class where nobody knew me. During the beginners lesson the taxi dancer went to great lengths to show me how to bounce my hand up and down properly and do that side-to-side foowork thing during the countdown to the start of the routine - I think I'd nearly got the knack of it by the end of the lesson :devil:

I even considered doing the beginners consolidation...

:rofl:
It always amuses me that some taxi dancers jump straight in with 'helpful' comments without first checking how the person they're dancing with is doing... surely it's common sense to find out if you're dancing with a biginner or not before you start to do something like that...?!

[MartinHarper]

At last: proper lessons in Bouncy Hands (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2719&highlight=bouncy+hands) Jive!

[bigdjiver]

So why are some Ceroc classes charging 40% more than Ceroc Metro :confused:
When a franchise is running many venues with different capacities and at different stages of growth it is difficult to pick a single price to suit all venues.

If the venue is packed to capacity then it is quite probable that some people are staying away because they consider it too crowded.

One obvious solution is to raise the price so that the venue is still packed to comfortable capacity, but now the others are staying away because of the price. They are paying the 40% more to dance in comfort with other dancers keen enough to pay 40% more for an experience they all judge worth the money.

I have just danced with the same beginner on 3 nights this week. She started Monday, went to another venue Tues, and came to the Thurs class too. It does not require free entry to get some beginners coming back, if the experience is right.

There were at least two ladies who were paying £10 on top of the entry fee for baby sitters also there tonight.