The Need for an INDEPENDANT Teacher Training Organistaion

[Gus]

{ODA MOde On}

Picture the scene. You've been dancing for two/three years. You're good, love teaching, have experience of other dance styles and you know an area that doesnt have a club and you know a venue. So ... you want to teach MJ ... but how? You could try to get Ceroc to put you through the CTA but then you have to sign your club and soul to Ceroc. You could try a rival (if they exist nearbye) .. but they seem to have similar restrictions. You could judt try bumbling along but in your heart of hearts you know that not the right forward (you've seen enough examples of cowboy instructors). So who do you turn to?

Isnt it about time that some the 'great and good' got together to form a MJ Teacher Training institiute. Could you imagine an institute run by the likes of N&N, Viktor, Roger Chin? Would Ceroc/Blitz/Mo'jive take kindly to the idea ... is there a real market?

{ODA MOde Off}

Personally I would love to see such an instutute set-up as I believe it would really open up the MJ market. If it was to be set-up it wold be a great opportuntity for experienced teachers to improve their skills. I've done many dance courses in the years since I qualified as a teacher ... but not one of them has been aimed at improving my teaching ... and to my knowledge not even Ceroc or Blitz et al provide such a course.

[Dance Demon]

{ODA MOde On}
You could try a rival (if they exist nearbye) .. but they seem to have similar restrictions. You could judt try bumbling along but in your heart of hearts you know that not the right forward (you've seen enough examples of cowboy instructors). So who do you turn to?
{ODA MOde Off}


Is the problem starting up a venue and teaching MJ without some form of Qualification ? As far as I know, you can apply to the Leroc Federation and do Their exams. Then you can start up a venue and teach without anyone calling you a cowboy. Or is the problem, that different organisations, don't recognise each others qualifications. ? I think that in theory, your Idea of a National MJ teachers qualification ( perhaps an NVQ., if they still exist) is a good one Gus. In practice it may need the patience of a saint and the wisdom of Solomon to bring into being. It could be that One or two organisations might decide not to recognise that qualification, and it becomes just a worthless piece of paper.

[DavidY]

( perhaps an NVQ., if they still exist)NVQs do still exist, in England at any rate. Not sure about Scotland - I think you might have SVQs up there which I guess are similar.

Dance training qualifications do exist with other dance styles- but my guess is they don't (currently) cover modern jive. For instance, the Imperial Society of Teachers of Dancing - Teaching Qualification (http://www.istd.org/training/teachingqualifications/teachingqualifications.html#1) seems to be a fairly generic qualification which could apply to many types of dance. ISTD seem to include "rock'n'roll/freestyle/disco" as one of their dance styles - maybe their teching qualification could be applied to MJ as well?

It seems from their website that ISTD are working towards having their teaching qualifications accredited as part of QCA's National Qualification Framework, which would mean it would have formal recognition as a qualification (in the same way as NVQs which are also part of the QCA framework). (QCA are the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority who regulate exams and qualifications in England. There are equivalent bodies for other parts of the UK - SQA are the equivalent body in Scotland for instance).

I think other organisations may have similar qualifications - I'm just picking ISTD as an example because I found their website first.

However having a recognised qualification isn't enough - you also have to find someone to deliver it....

[Gadget]

I think that (again) a lot of the problem may lie in trying to define what exactly MJ is.
Ceroc have the CTA - It teaches how to teach Ceroc: which is a good foundation for developing your MJ.
I think that the shear diversity in what is and is not MJ makes it impossable to have a qualification beyond a basic "Teacher" that could teach spins, connection, leading and listening to music. These skills could be taught by almost any of the ISTD courses - what makes MJ different is the lack of specifics.

A nice idea, but I don't see Ceroc/Leroc/whoever letting anyone simply teach under their banner witout being shown how they teach: the best I would imagin would be that it may allow a fast-track through the CTA.

[Gus]

I think that (again) a lot of the problem may lie in trying to define what exactly MJ is.


Not sure that I agree. Blitz and Mo'Jive have a MJ syllabus, possibly based around the original CTA formula. LeRoc have their own. Any qualified teacher on the MJ scene could put together the syllabus .. its having someone with the experienece, time and patience to train the prospective teachers. The use of some of the MJ Greats could be to develop a course that is actualy superiour to the current offering.

The interesting part comes as to whether the course would be assessed (i.e. if you don't pass the exam you dont count as being being trained) or awarded for attendance only.

[Lou]

A nice idea, but I don't see Ceroc/Leroc/whoever letting anyone simply teach under their banner witout being shown how they teach: the best I would imagin would be that it may allow a fast-track through the CTA.

Just a quick correction, Gadget. It's perfectly legal & acceptable to teach LeRoc without going through any certified training (although it probably helps!). LeRoc isn't a single organisation like Ceroc, Blitz or MoJive. It's a generic term.

I liked Dance Demon's answer - that someone who wanted a teaching qualification to start up on their own should consider the LeRoc Federation training. Currently, it's probably the most generic MJ qualification out there, (as it was set up to be independent & a non-profit making organisation) and it's of a very good standard.

[Gadget]

Not sure that I agree. ~ Any qualified teacher on the MJ scene could put together the syllabus.

The interesting part comes as to whether the course would be assessed ~ or awarded for attendance only.
OK, assuming they could put together a decent syllabus; it would teach a "generic" MJ grounding. Not the specific nuances that the individual organisations want to ingrain.
What is the point on having it an "attendance only" course? (in anything?)
Without it, it degrades the whole qualification and {IMHO} makes it less likely to be recognised by any MJ organisation.

... taking the original idea further, could it be run similar to an OU course?: Various workshops could be treated as "modules" and worth so many points. An accumulation of these points with an "exam" at the end would award you with an MJ certification.
The organising body would then only need to concentrate on the end exam and approving workshops/assessing workshop levels. No "teaching" would be required as such. The rating of the workshops could then also be used by joe public as a rough gauge to their level and whether they wanted to attend.

erm... oops - that would be a MJ qualification, not an MJ teaching qualification then. Never mind: the same principles could apply to a teaching qualification couldn't it?

[Lounge Lizard]

LeRoc Federation training. Currently, it's probably the most generic MJ qualification out there, (as it was set up to be independent & a non-profit making organisation) and it's of a very good standard.
Depends how high you set your standards, the first level is associate and very easy to pass, which does not set a high standard, the full membership (of which I understand there is 11 members in ALL of the LeRoc Federation) is harder but seems to ignore or avoid the current way in which modern jive is moving.
Should the exam be easy to get more full members to join or be hard & set a high standard, perhaps excluding some associate members from ever acheiving full member status
I am aware of the training days held by the LeRoc federation but i do not know who the trainers are
Roi Forbes is only one I am aware off - are all 11 full member's qualified to train teachers?
Personaly if I were to attend a teacher training course I would want Nina Daines to be the trainer
PP

[Lou]

Depends how high you set your standards,
True. I just based my opinion on the quality of the teachers I'd seen who have been through the training (such as John Gimber and Graham Weeks, for instance).

I'm happy to revise my opinion, LL - especially because you've experienced more than me (you're an assoc member?). Maybe there's a need for the assoc course to become harder? I don't know. Hopefully John Eastman will flit through here & take on board some of the comments.... :)

[Gus]

Personaly if I were to attend a teacher training course I would want Nina Daines to be the trainer


:yeah: If I was to do more teacher training I would like the instructor to be a 'proper dancer' aswell as a MJer. Nina is one good example, others would be Sue Freeman or Amir. Must admit, I dont know many others in that class.

[Andy McGregor]

Personaly if I were to attend a teacher training course I would want Nina Daines to be the trainer
PP

This would be a great thing. But, put yourself in Nina's position: would you want to train people to compete with you? How would any MJ teacher react if someone came to them to be taught what they know - and then opened up down the road. For Nina that's just about everywhere because she teaches all over the place. And because Nina is a teacher for hire by anyone people might choose between Nina or someone trained by Nina at a lower price for a workshop or evenings teaching.

[cerocmetro]

This would be a great thing. But, put yourself in Nina's position: would you want to train people to compete with you? How would any MJ teacher react if someone came to them to be taught what they know - and then opened up down the road. For Nina that's just about everywhere because she teaches all over the place. And because Nina is a teacher for hire by anyone people might choose between Nina or someone trained by Nina at a lower price for a workshop or evenings teaching.



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Gus]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Urrm .. sorry ... whats the joke? :confused:

[DavidB]

In some other forms of dancing, it is normal for a senior teacher to charge junior teachers more for lessons than other dancers. The reason is simple - it is assumed that the junior teacher will then teach what he has been taught, and potentially deprive the senior teacher of money. However in return, there should be a lot more detail - not just how to do the step, but how to teach it.


My only prerequisite for going for a lesson is that the teacher knows something I want to learn. Whether they have any experience outside of Modern Jive is irrelevant. (Depending on the topic, their knowledge of Modern Jive is irrelevant as well.)


And in keeping with many of the posts in this thread, here is my token speling mitsake.

David

[bigdjiver]

For a start we need an MJ federation or council ( or by another name ) to define common names and descriptions for the basic and a good selection of intermediate moves. Until I see that happening I will keep backing the biggest MJ organisation to rule the roost as the best way of building a solid foundation for MJ. I still believe that the MJ organisations have far more to gain from cooperation than from competition.

[Gordon J Pownall]

For a start we need an MJ federation or council ( or by another name ) to define common names and descriptions for the basic and a good selection of intermediate moves. Until I see that happening I will keep backing the biggest MJ organisation to rule the roost as the best way of building a solid foundation for MJ. I still believe that the MJ organisations have far more to gain from cooperation than from competition.

:yeah: :yeah:

[Gus]

I still believe that the MJ organisations have far more to gain from cooperation than from competition.

[ODA Mode On}
And that will happen when?????
[ODA Mode Off}

Other than that ... fair point but not sure that there needs to be a whole raft of bureaucracy just so someone can teach someone how to teach MJ. If Vilktor/Rog Chin/N&N started a MJ Teacher Training academy would you still wait for the formation of a MJ Federation before throwing money at them to train you?

[bigdjiver]

If Vilktor/Rog Chin/N&N started a MJ Teacher Training academy would you still wait for the formation of a MJ Federation before throwing money at them to train you? With my brains and coordination I would have to wait until hell froze over before anybody trained me. :sad:

I was going to add that it would take more money than Roman Abramovich has, but it occurred to me that the answer to your "when?" on the "federation" might be when he gets taught MJ :grin:

[LilyB]

This would be a great thing. But, put yourself in Nina's position: would you want to train people to compete with you? How would any MJ teacher react if someone came to them to be taught what they know - and then opened up down the road. For Nina that's just about everywhere because she teaches all over the place. And because Nina is a teacher for hire by anyone people might choose between Nina or someone trained by Nina at a lower price for a workshop or evenings teaching.

As DavidB has said, this "dilemma" is normally overcome (in most other forms of dancing) by the senior teacher charging a junior teacher more than he/she would an amateur student. The same applies to professional dancers, ie. those who perform for a fee, who may or may not teach. A professional dancer who seeks tuition from another professional, especially one in the same field, must expect to pay substantially more for that tuition. This is because that professional will then use what he/she has learnt to earn money. Whether or not this deprives the teaching professional of a job is irrelevant. It is a matter of professional courtesy.

From my personal experience, this philosophy does not appear to have made its way into Modern Jive. Many professional & semi-pro dancers take lessons from their contemporaries without paying any more than amateurs, then proceed to compete against their teachers in competitions, or teach the same moves in their own classes. Indeed, some are even known to ask fellow pros to teach them moves etc. for free (as a 'friend'), then go on to use those moves for their own professional gain, whether in competitions, cabarets or classes. I am sure these people do not see anything wrong with their actions, but this sort of behaviour would not normally be tolerated in other dance forms eg. ballroom, ballet, stage.

Whilst I do not want to see MJ go down the path of Ballroom dancing etc, it is IMHO wrong for someone like Nina and Amir, who are both professional dancers ie. they make their living from dancing to be deprived of the appropriate fees due to them from fellow pros who compete against them (even on the very odd occasion) and/or who may use their moves in cabarets and/or to teach to their own students.

LilyB

[philsmove]

you've seen enough examples of cowboy instructors

I have attended a lot of classes and no I don’t think I have

I can remember one appalling teacher but I don’t think he could be described as a "cowboy". He was a very good dancer but simply could not teach

The best teachers seem to have a nature ability to impart knowledge, I am not entirely sure if that ability can be taught

So, no a don’t think an INDEPENDANT Teacher Training Organisation is going to have much effect

That said one does already exist The Leroc federation

[Gadget]

~snip~
Many professional & semi-pro dancers take lessons from their contemporaries without paying any more than amateurs, ~ I am sure these people do not see anything wrong with their actions, but this sort of behaviour would not normally be tolerated in other dance forms eg. ballroom, ballet, stage.
Perhaps this is part of what makes MJ so accessable and so friendly?

It also means that teachers are rated more by how they teach rather than what they teach.

New 'flavours' get introduced and amalgamated into the dance with relative speed.

People are actually taught moves rather than risk injury by trying to emulate from what they've seen.

"Pupils" see teachers learning from each other and conclude that everyone can learn something; their teacher is not infallable and the potential is there to become as good/better than them.

- Aren't these all good things? Why should professional & semi-pro dancers see anything wrong with that?

[cerocmetro]

Perhaps this is part of what makes MJ so accessable and so friendly?

It also means that teachers are rated more by how they teach rather than what they teach.

New 'flavours' get introduced and amalgamated into the dance with relative speed.

People are actually taught moves rather than risk injury by trying to emulate from what they've seen.

"Pupils" see teachers learning from each other and conclude that everyone can learn something; their teacher is not infallable and the potential is there to become as good/better than them.

- Aren't these all good things? Why should professional & semi-pro dancers see anything wrong with that?

This is one of the best comments I have read on here and is closer to the essence of what Ceroc is all about.

We seem to have got a bit wrapped up in having teachers who are legends in the dance world, amazing dancers who are there to make everyone equals.

This is NOT what Ceroc is about and it is NOT why I love Ceroc and love teaching.

Ceroc to me is a social event. I am there on stage to entertain, to take peoples problems of the real world away from them for 3 hours and let them enjoy themselves.

There are a minority who will become "great dancers" but in truth they will whether I teach them or not. The majority learn to become adequate dancers and enjoy it.

To me the best teachers in Ceroc are entertainers who can keep their class amused, teach them something useful and integrate with the class. examples of these are Bill, Lucy, Mike, Linda, Virginia, dare I say me, Gordon, Emma, Franck, Lisa, Lorna. These are only teachers who I have seen who have the quality to do that.

Others teachers, no names mentioned, believe they can teach Joe public to become great dancers. Their classes may start big and popular, but once the realisation sets in that the public can never reach such high levels without going to the gym, studying different techniques as though they were at college and suffering physically by pushing their bodies to the limits atheletes do, then they leave the whole MJ world in dispair and feel failures.

I run small advance classes for people who want to go that extra bit, Fulham does the same and these classes are popular. BUT popular means the 20-30 people max every week who attend. they are never oversubscribed, there are not the numbers of dancers who could do it.

Workshops are a great forum to teach intermediate dancers. we even have advanced workshops but you will never find an advanced dancer in an advanced workshop unless it is on a weekender. Why, because they do not need to.

So I think teachers should be trained how to entertain, how to keep a class moving. How to make everyone in the room feel they are having a great time, not idiots becasue they cannot get the moves.

Perhaps this means we should be looking elsewhere for our supply of teachers.

An immediate arguement I can feel to this is people may say the standards would drop. I do not believe for a second that they would. I believe the numbers on the nights would increase, therefore the minority numbers would increase of the potentially natural good dancers and therfore the overall standard would increase.

What I believe some organisations are doing now by proclaiming to be elitist and having the "best dancers" as teachers is to potentially ruin the whole MJ industry.

There you go no sweeping statements there :whistle:

Adam

[Gordon J Pownall]

We seem to have got a bit wrapped up in having teachers who are legends in the dance world, amazing dancers who are there to make everyone equals.

This is NOT what Ceroc is about and it is NOT why I love Ceroc and love teaching. Ceroc to me is a social event. I am there on stage to entertain, to take peoples problems of the real world away from them for 3 hours and let them enjoy themselves.

...and I think most teachers in Ceroc would agree with that...!!! :cheers:


To me the best teachers in Ceroc are entertainers who can keep their class amused, teach them something useful and integrate with the class. :worthy:

...people go to Ceroc / MJ etc to have fun - not to become professional dancers. :whistle: :really:

Let's face it, for those who want to reach the highest echelons of ability etc., there are so many 'advanced' / 'specialist' classes who would know where to start...??? Is this what our punters want on the regular class night... :confused: IMHO I don't think so... :whistle:

The weekly dance night / class night is the bread and butter of what we do and what we should constantly be striving to do ....as Adam says, :-.....


I run small advance classes for people who want to go that extra bit, Fulham does the same and these classes are popular. BUT popular means the 20-30 people max every week who attend. they are never oversubscribed, there are not the numbers of dancers who could do it.




So I think teachers should be trained how to entertain, how to keep a class moving. How to make everyone in the room feel they are having a great time......

and yet again...we come back to the same argument / point... :whistle:

......not every brilliant dancer makes a brilliant teacher and vice versa.......

to get both factors in one individual is a rare commodity - when you do it works and works well........


(Adam's gimp mode turned off now.....)

[bigdjiver]

All of the teachers at Ceroc Central that I have seen have the gift of entertaining whilst educating.

As a dancer, I too do MJ to have fun, to entertain, to extend myself and my partner, and to educate, although very rarely all at once.

One of the major joys is the richness of the environment. I enjoy the end-product of the perfectionsists, though I have no desire to become one, and I definitely do not wish to have perfectionism thrust upon me, except where safety is concerned.

As for recruiting teachers from a different environment, I believe some of the earliest adverts were in "Stage" magazine. Many beginners are a bit stressed by the new environment and new people, and the quickest and best way to make people relax is to make them laugh together. Many come away from their first lesson feeling that they cannot remember much at all, but if they have enjoyed themselves, they will be back.

I have found that often those who are not naturally gifted, but acquire skill by hard work, often make very good teachers, because they know the difficulties, and can emphasise with the struggling.

[Andy McGregor]

I've just found this (http://www.uq.net.au/~zzdshack/modernjive2/iamj/about.html) which seems to offer what Gus was talking about.

But who are they? I found them because a friend just 'phoned asking me to do a quick search for a class tonight in Chichester - and they do have a link to a Chichester class.

Has anyone else heard of them?

[under par]

I've just found this (http://www.uq.net.au/~zzdshack/modernjive2/iamj/about.html) which seems to offer what Gus was talking about.

But who are they? I found them because a friend just 'phoned asking me to do a quick search for a class tonight in Chichester - and they do have a link to a Chichester class.

Has anyone else heard of them?

Our very own Peter Phillips is an associate member. :yeah:

LL any further info??

[philsmove]

To me the best teachers in Ceroc are entertainers who can keep their class amused, teach them something useful and integrate with the class. examples of these are Bill, Lucy, Mike, Linda, Virginia, dare I say me, Gordon, Emma, Franck, Lisa, Lorna.

Living in Bristol I have not been taught by any of the above, but I get your drift

May I add Mark and Jackie from Cardiff to your list?

Yes I know they are not CeRoc but I hope you will allow me to add them to the list

[spindr]

Our very own Peter Phillips is an associate member. :yeah:

LL any further info??

Hey, just noticed that there's a free lesson voucher, and Bournemouth's not that far :)

[Andy McGregor]

Hey, just noticed that there's a free lesson voucher, and Bournemouth's not that far :)

But it is for a beginners lesson: The Tramp could use it. Where do we use it in Bournemouth? It's not that far for me either. We could have a fourmites beginners convention in Bournemouth :wink:

[John Gimber]

True. I just based my opinion on the quality of the teachers I'd seen who have been through the training (such as John Gimber and Graham Weeks, for instance).

Hi Lou,

For what it's worth, I haven't done any "Federation" training for what it's worth - some of it was taught by David Hancock (Elmgrove LeRoc bossman where I teach, he is a Federation teacher) and the rest has been me teaching myself how to teach. See a problem, fix a problem, kind of thing!

Trying to do "official" training courses may not do me a lot of good - I have real trouble learning new dance stuff unless I experience it at my own speed, but there again I did take up LeRoc becuase I had a phobia about dancing :)

John.

[Minnie M]

Guess what I found on that link Andy posted :


Billy Cullen (Associate) Le Roc Scotland
Wednesdays - Quality Station Hotel Ayr 0141 3310608

I've been there !

Does Billy still run it ? There was only about 30 people there when I went and they all thought I was special :whistle: (mind you it was about 5 years ago)

[Dance Demon]

He's still there Minnie. he also runs a class in Renfrew as far as I know, and a monthly party in Glasgow. He had Peter Phillips up doing a class about a year or so ago.

[Minnie M]

Yep, think I went to the Renfrew one too :clap:

Thanks for the info DD, say hello from me should any forumites bump into him :hug:

Just out of interest do you have any 'bad' MJ teachers in Scotland, you certainly have produced some great dancers.

[Minnie M]

Does Billy still run it ? ..................... it was about 5 years ago

Did I say 5 years ago, more like EIGHT :worthy:

[Gus]

Came across something interesting whilst browsing ... would see like our very own Andy McG is setting up something to rival the CTA ( :wink: ). Appears that he's got young Nigel to run a teacher training course for him. Not like Andy to keep something like this quiet ...... whats the story???

[RogerR]

The catch is that MJ by all its trade names, is a modern developing street dance. The Le Roc syllabus was formed as a basis for the style, and there is new and current ( and will be future ) development to keep the dance vibrant and interesting, there will be aspects of style to reflect up and coming music styles.

The www.howtojive.com site has some notes for teachers and proprietors of new classes. The Le Roc Federation offers training and exams in Le Roc dance membership gets you membership of the UKA and public liability insurance for dance teaching. Your local college will offer a FE teacher training certificate course -- The stage one is 35 hours of class time. so there you have Teaching, Dance, and business.

The strength of Ceroc is that the training and franchise system ensures that the classes teachers and taxis are of a common standard and style. To Gain the benefits you MUST sign up to the franchise rules, -- you cannot be an independant, you must then teach by the ceroc rules-- dance, business and style.

The strength of the Le Roc model is that you have the basic style, and then apply your own finnesses and business model and for a freedom from franchise fees you have the freedom to stand or fall by your own decisions, make your own fortune or.......

[Andy McGregor]

Came across something interesting whilst browsing ... would see like our very own Andy McG is setting up something to rival the CTA ( :wink: ). Appears that he's got young Nigel to run a teacher training course for him. Not like Andy to keep something like this quiet ...... whats the story???Nigel young? :confused:

Yes, I've got Nigel Anderson running a dance teachers training course over the weekend of 12th and 13th March. I'm going on the course myself.

And, we're planning another course for later in the year. This will be for graduates of the first course and dance teachers who'd like to learn to teach like Nigel Anderson. And that course it the one that will finish with an examination resulting in membership of an international dance teachers association if you make the grade.

[Andy McGregor]

I'm going on the course myself.

And that will mark the end of my reign as Queen of the intermediate category :tears:

[ChrisA]

Yes, I've got Nigel Anderson running a dance teachers training course over the weekend of 12th and 13th March. I'm going on the course myself.

And, we're planning another course for later in the year. This will be for graduates of the first course and dance teachers who'd like to learn to teach like Nigel Anderson. And that course it the one that will finish with an examination resulting in membership of an international dance teachers association if you make the grade.
So is this just for people you're promoting? Or existing teachers? Or anyone?

"An" international dance teachers association?

A new one?

:confused:

[Andy McGregor]

So is this just for people you're promoting? Or existing teachers? Or anyone?

This is for anyone who can dance MJ: no matter how attractive and young they are :wink: I'm putting my own trainee teachers on it and so are a couple of other people. I'm really not seeing this particular project as a business, more a way of getting my teachers trained and sharing the costs.

It just needed someone to make it happen. And, this time, that someone is me.


"An" international dance teachers association?

A new one?

:confused:

I've been deliberately vague here because I'm not sure who I'm going to use. I've had an offer from one dance teachers association but haven't even had time to speak to the others about what they could do. Once I've got something to compare I'll make a decision based on a discussion with Nigel. And that will be well in advance of the next course - which I plan for some time in the 3rd quarter of this year.

A new one. Now there is and idea :whistle:

[Gus]

..... will finish with an examination resulting in membership of an international dance teachers association if you make the grade.Thats a thought. Am I correct in saying that only the LeRoc teachers qualification actualy holds any kind of recognition ... something like NVQ or IDTA recognition. For all their grace I dont believe that the CTA or Blitz training courses count for anything in the muggle world. True?

[Andy McGregor]

Thats a thought. Am I correct in saying that only the LeRoc teachers qualification actualy holds any kind of recognition ... something like NVQ or IDTA recognition. For all their grace I dont believe that the CTA or Blitz training courses count for anything in the muggle world. True?

I've been giving this some thought over recent months. I think the big dance organisations qualifications and NVQs have a lot to do with eligibility for special insurance schemes and teaching in schools and colleges.

Within our cosy world of MJ it doesn't really matter if someone has an NVQ in dance. And does that NVQ mean much a few years after you took it. Who could pass their 'A' levels 10 or 20 years after they took them? Not me (although it is 30 years for me :tears: ). What really matters to us in MJ is how good a teacher you are - and, to some extent, how good an example your dancing is.

[RogerR]

Le Roc is a recognised dance style of the UKAlliance one of the learned bodies of dance, and yes membership gets you access to public liability insurance at a reasonable price!!

[Andreas]

{ODA MOde On}

Picture the scene. You've been dancing for two/three years. You're good, love teaching, have experience of other dance styles and you know an area that doesnt have a club and you know a venue. So ... you want to teach MJ ... but how? You could try to get Ceroc to put you through the CTA but then you have to sign your club and soul to Ceroc. You could try a rival (if they exist nearbye) .. but they seem to have similar restrictions. You could judt try bumbling along but in your heart of hearts you know that not the right forward (you've seen enough examples of cowboy instructors). So who do you turn to?

Isnt it about time that some the 'great and good' got together to form a MJ Teacher Training institiute. Could you imagine an institute run by the likes of N&N, Viktor, Roger Chin? Would Ceroc/Blitz/Mo'jive take kindly to the idea ... is there a real market?

{ODA MOde Off}

Personally I would love to see such an instutute set-up as I believe it would really open up the MJ market. If it was to be set-up it wold be a great opportuntity for experienced teachers to improve their skills. I've done many dance courses in the years since I qualified as a teacher ... but not one of them has been aimed at improving my teaching ... and to my knowledge not even Ceroc or Blitz et al provide such a course.


:yeah:

[RogerR]

Can the "great and good" agree what is the true MJ style. Should we agree what is good style? Is Roger's style the same as N+N's the same as Victor's?

Le Roc Has a small but detailed syllabus on which teachers build to make their own classes with their own style. Ceroc has their own course and their own Continued Professional Development to ensure that all ceroc classes are up to standard and up to date, for which they demand continued compliance with the franchise agreement.

When I taught evening classes for my local college they wanted me to have a FE teacher's certificate, this I have. The cert. came as a result of a one week course run by my then local college for aspiring night school teachers for non-vocational subjects. The course assumes you are wise in your subject area and gives you insights into the pupils -their needs and aspirations, and the ways of ordering, presenting and communicating your information to your class for best entertainment and education.

[Andy McGregor]

Can the "great and good" agree what is the true MJ style. Should we agree what is good style? Is Roger's style the same as N+N's the same as Victor's?

I think that what Roger is saying is that there are many good styles in MJ. And that many of them are very different from each other. And I think he's saying that's a good thing - so I agree with him 100%.

.. unless that isn't what he's saying :confused:

[RogerR]

Thank You.

You are almost with me!

In my opinion the best codified and published starting point for MJ is the UKA ratified Le Roc syllabus, the ceroc model is only available to franchisees.

With a sound basis to the MJ dance, style is and should be continuously progressing and variable. Teachers while cherishing their individuality must consider the best ways of putting the subject over to their class and a formal FE teaching qualification helps in academic environs, and recognition by the learned bodies of dance helps on a business front --PLI especially.

[Gadget]

You are almost with me!
:confused: So you are saying that it dosn't matter about an independant modern jive teacher training association, as long as there is some generic teacher training that can be applied to MJ; Yes?

[Andy McGregor]

:confused: So you are saying that it dosn't matter about an independant modern jive teacher training association, as long as there is some generic teacher training that can be applied to MJ; Yes?

No!

What he's saying is;



the best codified and published starting point for MJ is the UKA ratified Le Roc syllabus,

Quite the opposite of yes!

What I'm saying is that there is a need for teacher training and that the LeRoc federation don't offer it, just examination. And that is why I've set up a course to train teachers - for as start, I'd like some training :flower:

[Gadget]

the best codified and published starting point for MJ is the UKA ratified Le Roc syllabus,
What I'm saying is that there is a need for teacher training and that the LeRoc federation don't offer it, just examination. And that is why I've set up a course to train teachers - for as start, I'd like some training
? "Published starting point" sounds like the "MJ" bit to me, not the "Teaching" bit; The LeRoc thing is how to dance, not how to teach, {yes?} so all that's needed is a generic "teacher training" that can be applied to MJ.
Ceroc have an internal one that is customised to MJ, but in specialising, do they leave out other teaching models/methods/concepts that could be applied? Would a generic teacher training not allow more flexability with the teachers so that they can choose which bits suit them?

[Lou]

The LeRoc thing is how to dance, not how to teach, {yes?}
Not quite - The LeRoc thing is a LeRoc teacher examination, based around the Federation teaching syllabus. The one thing that's missing is a training course leading up to it.

[RogerR]

When I contacted Le Roc, I was offered a schedule of exam times and a list of appropriate tutors in my area. I was then able to arrange to meet my chosen tutor at a social event for her to assess my state of dance with a view to training to dance and teach Le Roc with an exam time in mind. Un fortunately my career took a sharp turn as my employer went bust -- end of spare cash for training. Le Roc training is mostly one to one with an approved tutor/examiner.

[Andy McGregor]

When I contacted Le Roc, I was offered a schedule of exam times and a list of appropriate tutors in my area. I was then able to arrange to meet my chosen tutor at a social event for her to assess my state of dance with a view to training to dance and teach Le Roc with an exam time in mind. Un fortunately my career took a sharp turn as my employer went bust -- end of spare cash for training. Le Roc training is mostly one to one with an approved tutor/examiner.
Who are those personal tutors? What yardstick do they use? Can they dance? Do they exist outside Bristol? Why haven't we heard this stuff before?

When I contacted LeRoc I was told it would cost me £190 per person to do the exam!

I looked at the LeRoc Fed and saw old politics. There's politics there that you'd inherit if you joined the LeRoc Fed. And I think we've each got enough politics of our own without taking on someone else's :what:

[RogerR]

From memory Roy Forbes and Suzanne (Pardy) were two tutors, both from SW london both dancers and both also examiners. There are others. There is also learning/ teaching resource material available from Le Roc.

[Gus]

Who are those personal tutors? What yardstick do they use? Can they dance? Do they exist outside Bristol? Why haven't we heard this stuff before?

I looked at the LeRoc Fed and saw old politics. There's politics there that you'd inherit if you joined the LeRoc Fed. And I think we've each got enough politics of our own without taking on someone else's :what:Andy .. after everything that has been said about how one expresses their views in a more concise and polite ways ... then you come out with this. :tears: How about the fact that someone is innocent till proven guilty? .... this series of statements immediatly puts the LeRoc Federation in the position where they have to defend themselves ... WHY?

Andy dear chap, these guys have been on the scene doing good things a LOT longer than you and I. Give some respect ... know your place.

[Andy McGregor]

Andy .. after everything that has been said about how one expresses their views in a more concise and polite ways ... then you come out with this. :tears: How about the fact that someone is innocent till proven guilty? .... this series of statements immediatly puts the LeRoc Federation in the position where they have to defend themselves ... WHY?
Sorry, my "can they dance?" should have read "can they dance MJ?". It's the UK Alliance bit I suppose I'm referring to - they do all kinds of dance and your local guys might no do MJ. That's all I was asking. Of course there's members of the LeRoc Fed that are fabulous MJ'ers and I wasn't really questioning that :flower:


Andy dear chap, these guys have been on the scene doing good things a LOT longer than you and I.

The objectives of the Federation are fabulous and they have done great work in setting up a teaching syllabus, etc. But we never get to hear about it and they don't run a course where they teach it to you.

On the subject of old Politics I stand my ground. I think that a national federation for MJ would be fabulous. There's a British Fencing Associaltion and it's only got about 6,000 members - there's a huge number of MJ'ers but, for some reason, the LeRoc Federation seems bogged down in old politics - at least that's my perception standing on the outside looking in. And this isn't just my view, it's the view of some people I know who are in the LeRoc Fed itself!

Give some respect ... know your place.
I'm trying to stimulate debate and in this matter, it seems, I'm taking the place of Devil's Advocate - the "Official" one is currently on a mission of peace and harmony :wink:

[Lou]

I'm trying to stimulate debate and in this matter, it seems, I'm taking the place of Devil's Advocate - the "Official" one is currently on a mission of peace and harmony :wink:
:rofl:

Yup - the Feds appear to be somewhat political - but, then, all organisations are somewhat political. I guess my squabble with John Eastman last year didn't really help, either. :whistle:

As it happens, I've spoken to John recently about getting accredited with the Feds & he was very encouraging. However, the next exam is too soon for me to feel comfortable with, so I've signed up to the course that Andy's organising, and it'll also give me time to get more teaching experience in, before I do any exams.

If John happens to be lurking around - it'd be great to hear your viewpoint.... :nice:

[spindr]

I'm trying to stimulate debate and in this matter, it seems, I'm taking the place of Devil's Advocate - the "Official" one is currently on a mission of peace and harmony :wink:

Andy, I wonder if you might find you get more response to your questions about the LeRoc Federation here (http://www.leroc.org.uk/forum) rather than on the Ceroc Scotland forum? :)

SpinDr.

[Andy McGregor]

Andy, I wonder if you might find you get more response to your questions about the LeRoc Federation here (http://www.leroc.org.uk/forum) rather than on the Ceroc Scotland forum? :)

SpinDr.


Our users have posted 6 Posts in 5 Topics in 4 Forum(s)
Last Post on 19 January 2005 at 2:24pm By JohnE
We have 17 Forum Members
I expect we've got more LeRoc Fed members on the Scottish Ceroc Forum than there are on the Official website. But now SpinDr has pointed it out, who knows? :wink:

[RogerR]

Perhaps a good project would involve a visit by a Le Roc accredited tutor/examiner to teach dancing skills and a FE teaching cert stage one course run by a local college of FE, then the participants would have dance and teaching training and certification. The UKA aproval of the Le Roc style and syllabus took years of hard organising by several highly committed people, It would be a waste of diuplicated effort to try to create a new organisation with new affilliations and accreditations.

[David Franklin]

Just saw the following on a US forum and thought it amusing (for context - Skippy Blair 'wrote the book' as far as WCS teaching goes).


When I was attending a Skippy Blair workshop about 8 years ago, I remember one dancer asking:

"Skippy, when will I know that I'm good enough to be teaching ?"

Skippy said: "Don't worry about that, you'll be teaching long before then".

Dave (not sure whether to :rofl: or :tears: )

[Andy McGregor]

I've just found this (http://www.uq.net.au/~zzdshack/modernjive2/iamj/about.html) which seems to offer what Gus was talking about.

But who are they? I found them because a friend just 'phoned asking me to do a quick search for a class tonight in Chichester - and they do have a link to a Chichester class.

Has anyone else heard of them?I can't believe how long this guy has been calling me asking for details of a class somewhere miles away - the above quote was over 2 years ago! I've just fixed up a place at Camber for him for the weekend. The funny thing is that I never see him, he never comes to our classes, only calls when he needs a favour, etc, etc. I spent the best part of an hour calling around for him on Saturday and regularly call him back on his mobile 'phone while I'm on a club website to give him directions.

Am I too easy going? Should I answer the 'phone next time he calls?

[Yogi_Bear]

Hmm, it does seem as though you can edit the thread title when you reply.....?! these spelling mistakes really annoy me..

[Andy McGregor]

Hmm, it does seem as though you can edit the thread title when you reply.....?! these spelling mistakes really annoy me..Try to avoid reading anything written by Gadget. You'll stay calmer...

[Daisy]

and yet again...we come back to the same argument / point... :whistle:

......not every brilliant dancer makes a brilliant teacher and vice versa.......

to get both factors in one individual is a rare commodity - when you do it works and works well........


(Adam's gimp mode turned off now.....)

I have to agree with this.

I have been teaching art/design for over 20 years and I have never been a professional artist who has sold any of my own work.

A very pompus art tutor once said 'that to be a good art teacher you had to exibit your own work at least 3 times a year'. What twaddle!!!:rolleyes:

It's all about imparting knowledge, information and skill to others and allowing them to reach their own personal potential. How you, as a personnality does that is paramount, in order to keep the classes attention and help them to understand what is required, so that they can retain as much information as possible.

I managed to get students to acheive an average of 93% A-C for 10 years consistgantly, so I must have done something right......and I never exibited a single piece of artwork done by me!:whistle:

Teaching is about being a good teacher, not necessarily a great dancer...... athough there are a few of Gods chosen few who are that blessed.

I also don't think that the top teacher/dancers would be at all worried about training others independently, as they're so established already. Nigel certainly wasn't when I and others did a MJ teacher training course with him......and he certainly didn't see us as a threat!:respect:

[scotttwin]

Nigel young? :confused:

This will be for graduates of the first course and dance teachers who'd like to learn to teach like Nigel Anderson. And that course it the one that will finish with an examination resulting in membership of an international dance teachers association if you make the grade.

Personally I think the opportunity of obtaining an internationally renowned teaching qualification without an audition or any approval process is fantastic. Maybe you could also run courses in accounting, bio-physics or an MBA in a weekend.

Perhaps you could clarify Andy, would you be comfortable having someone teach at your nights with a weekend's training and no approval process.

The fact that Aerobics was not controlled or any standards set for teachers is singly the reason for it's dramatic decline in the 70's.

[MartinHarper]

The fact that Aerobics was not controlled or any standards set for teachers is singly the reason for it's dramatic decline in the 70's.

Really? I thought it just became unfashionable.

[Andy McGregor]

Perhaps you could clarify Andy, would you be comfortable having someone teach at your nights with a weekend's training and no approval process.And where do I find MJ teachers who have had training or have gone through an approval process?

Most of the teachers at a weekender have had no training at all. They've just decided to teach. Some people who teach at weekenders are absolutely dreadful and some of them are fabulous teachers.

Luckily, I can usually find an opportunity to observe a potential teacher dancing and teaching, often at a weekender. Sometimes I love what I see and can't wait for them to teach for me and other times the standard of teaching or dancing is so poor I'm amazed that a weekender organiser has had the teacher back at all.

I agree with the sentiment behind what scotttwin has written. But, as a MJ organiser with a day job, I can't see what I can do to change things. I'd love to see an organisation of MJ organisers with a proper teaching and examination programme. At the moment I don't believe that the LeRoc Fed offers a consitent product that represents MJ as it is danced nowadays. But I don't have the time, and probably not the support, to set up an alternative. Ceroc offer training if you're pretty and prepared to teach in vests - and you're prepared to join the Borg...

[El Salsero Gringo]

Sometimes I love what I see and can't wait for them to teach for me and other times the standard of teaching or dancing is so poor I'm amazed that a weekender organiser has had the teacher back at all.That's just an illustration of the fact that what you consider to be a good teacher is different to what the event organiser considers to be a good teacher. One problem your putative organisation is going to have to face is to define what good teaching is. Are you ready for that?

[Andy McGregor]

That's just an illustration of the fact that what you consider to be a good teacher is different to what the event organiser considers to be a good teacher. One problem your putative organisation is going to have to face is to define what good teaching is. Are you ready for that?I think that some weekender organisers use a different set of criteria from the ones I'd use to select at teacher for a week-night MJ class. Some people do not even watch the teachers they've employed, they simply go by the ad-hoc feedback they receive. Anybody who knows this can always get a few of their friends and family to tell the organiser what a fabulous class they've just attended:innocent:

On the subject of differences of opinion on an organisation deciding what makes a good teacher: I think it's up to the members to agree benchmarks. I've no idea what any non-existant organisation would set as its benchmarks, that would be up to the members. But, I'd like to think that decision would be made democratically.

[El Salsero Gringo]

But, I'd like to think that decision would be made democratically.A good way to get a camel when what you wanted was a horse!

[Lee Bartholomew]

Im a few weeks in to teaching. Have opened Three classes in Bexhill, Crowborough and Heathfield.

There are several reasons I have done so.

A) I have trained as an IT trainer (if you explain how to send an email to a bunch of 60 year old who have never touched a pc before then you can explain a First Move).


B) There is a lack of people teaching the type of style I like to the type of music I like. I want people to be able to go to night clubs, weddings, partys etc and dance to music that people in the non MJ world know.

C) Im always being asked 'How do you do that' or ' Can you teach me that move'

D) Trying to do something diffrent with it. Want to teach more style and technique than most MJ classes do (at least locally)

Will do the Leroc foundation next year (god thats not long now).

People will decide with their feet and pockets on wether i am a decent enough teacher or not. There are plenty of other classes to attend. The Feedback I have had so far is very positive though.

[bigdjiver]

A) I have trained as an IT trainer (if you explain how to send an email to a bunch of 60 year old who have never touched a pc before then you can explain a First Move)....

:devil: But can you train them to do a spellcheck ?


...Crew Vacanceys...

anway, good luck. :)

[Gus]

if you explain how to send an email to a bunch of 60 year old who have never touched a pc before then you can explain a First Move...and would any qualified teacher want to point out any or all of the errors in that statement? :rolleyes:

[dance cat]

...and would any qualified teacher want to point out any or all of the errors in that statement? :rolleyes:

Depends. Do you mean a teacher teacher or a dance teacher? Personally as a professional I can explain how to send an email to six year olds and eleven year olds (and I've explained it to over 60s) but I don't think I could explain the first move from the lead perspective or even the follower's. I think teaching skills are transferrable but knowledge isn't. Just because I'm a damned good class teacher isn't going to make me a good dance teacher if I don't know how to break the moves down and explain them to the paying punters.
However being a professional teacher might give me the potential to be a really good dance teacher due to the skills in presenting and conveying information to different levels of learners

[Gus]

However being a professional teacher might give me the potential to be a really good dance teacher due to the skills in presenting and conveying information to different levels of learnersGood point well made. If there is one area where MJ teachers fall down is that they well know the moves but they do not understand learning/teaching models. One of the few teachers who I believe has studied this area (AND applies it) is Amir.