£150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

[Mikey]

I posted a little while back about a new strictlysinful website which i created, so anyone could see pictures of former classes at weekend events, swap chat and news, and also see when and where in the Uk sinful etc might be.. it was more for information of the jive community rather than promoting my teaching or a monday in Brighton (given that most of the forumites are from the North and Scotland) However a lot of them have been at Various weekenders like Southport and camber and i thought would have got a kick out of seeing the pictures of the classes etc. However i realised the very next day it was removed without a message or anything at all said to me :(

I now note it seems to cost £150 to tell other dancers news like this on here ? or was there some other reason i have missed ?

I have looked through a lot of the posts since the site has taken the commercial route and it does not seem to have the buzz it used to.. not so many dancers talking about what they did, where they went or even where they are going, why ? because it costs how much ? While a £150 may not seem like much to a large dance organisation like Ceroc, it is a massive cost to a small independant and its the postings from those we have lost. They were a large part of what helped make the Forum originally. It also strikes me (and not just because i am an independant teacher myself) that this is a loss for the forum members and detracts from their enjoyment. In my own area it is all small independants so hence i get no local events news on the forum anymore.
I can understand and agree with the need to cover costs and the £10 fee for anyone who uses the forum a lot is very reasonable... ( and no i have not paid it, simply because i don't get on her as much to warrant it) but has the commercial factor now spoilt things a little and taken some of the originality away ?
I thought it might just be me thinking it, but i asked and others feel the same, so, i thought i would be the one to say it at last.. after all, The Bad Boy is known for speaking his mind , is he not ?
not sure how long this thread will last mind you, but hey ho.. :cool:

[bigdjiver]

CEROC is a business. They learn. Of course the forum is diminished by business considerations, but we were being spoiled. There is nothing to stop anybody rich enough and so inclined to set up a completely open access, non-profit forum.

[Franck]

Hi Mikey,

Since I have added the new Commercial option, I have only removed half a dozen posts. All of them pure adverts, ie, not someone asking who is going to this event, or can anyone help with accommodation for such etc... If you look in the Social events area, you'll notice that it is buzzing as usual with discussiong of the Leroc competition, Hipsters, etc... pretty much the same as it was six months ago.

I can understand your reluctance to pay the £150.00 to become a commercial member but the fact is that you are using the Forum in a commercial way, and as such (in my view) should shoulder some of the cost. Ceroc Ltd is not paying for the Forum, I am, and I am an independent promoter, as I run many nights, some successful, some where I'm investing a lot of time, effort and money into, I know the value of advertising, and to me paying around £12.00 a month for such a targetted medium seems very good value!

I have taken great care not to remove any access for regular readers / posters who don't wish to or can't afford the £10 / £15.00 Silver membership and I believe that apart from initial hiccups, everything is just the same, you can read the same content, post as often as and say what you wish (including this thread by the way :nice: )

As BigDJiver said, anyone (including yourself) can start a discussion Forum and allow all and any advertising on it, but you'll find that £150.00 is what you end up paying monthly (rather than annually) :eek:

[DangerousCurves]

There is nothing to stop anybody rich enough and so inclined to set up a completely open access, non-profit forum.

Ironically, there is a wee discussion lounge attached to Mikey's new site, where anything and everything can be discussed. Its obviously nothing on a scale to rival this mighty forum, but people can say what they like there. He has also set up a page where ANY organiser or individual can submit their news of events for all to read - his only criteria is if they have their own web-site they provide reciprocal web links. He doesn't have any plans to charge...ever! :devil:

My own view is that I really get a lot of enjoyment from the forum - I have joined the BigBrother treehouse, and the book club, and have discovered a lot of new music that I would otherwise have missed out on - but there is no longer any event news on here for my area. If I wasn't involved in the other "activities" I would no longer log on here so frequently. I can't help thinking that this must damage the forum, since most people really come on here for dance news - not book clubs etc.

I guess any good thing gets commerciallised eventually... but that's not necessarily an improvement - or for the good of the customer :tears:

[CJ]

- but there is no longer any event news on here for my area. If I wasn't involved in the other "activities" I would no longer log on here so frequently. I can't help thinking that this must damage the forum, since most people really come on here for dance news - not book clubs etc.DC,

What you need is a local organiser who is savvy enough to weigh up the things of which you speak above, and a charge of £12.50 a month to advertise/plug/inform all of goings on in his area.

Mmm: £12.50?? Maybe 2 entrance fees per month? Equates to 1/2 a person a week to justify the expense.

Is a lot to think about... :whistle:

:devil: :wink: :devil:

[Franck]

He doesn't have any plans to charge...ever! :devil: Who does indeed?
I never had any plans to charge either when the Forum started I was happy to invest 20 pounds a month to create a community in Scotland and a place where everyone could chat about anything. I had also decided that everyone could publicise any event (Ceroc or otherwise) and that anyone could speak their mind without (heavy) censorship. This is still the case, and every organisation is welcome to advertise their events in here and all views are welcome.
When my monthly payments increased from 20 pounds to 200 pounds, what was I to do?
Should I just give up and say, well guys, it's been good, but I can't afford to run it any more, so as of next month we're closed?
I took the most sensible course of action, offered regular members the chance to pay a token amount to support the forum, and get more features in exchange, and started charging for all commercial members who benefit from the forum on a weekly basis.

There have been many discussions on advertising dance classes and it looks like while many promoters are happy to hand out leaflets at competing nights etc... few are prepared to pay for advertising (be it adverts in local papers / radio / busks etc...). This in my opinion is a shame as it shows a lack of maturity of the MJ business model...
I am not hitting the small independents at all, in fact, all it takes is for a couple of people to discover their events / nights each month for their fee to be recouped, and with the facility to advertise on the Social events, and to add events to the public calendar etc... this seems like a more than reasonable target.

[Mikey]

Hi Mikey,

Since I have added the new Commercial option, I have only removed half a dozen posts. All of them pure adverts,

Given the new "Commercial Memberships" I can recognise the need to police postings that are "pure adverts". However, I don't feel that my posting fell into this category. As I explained before, most forumites are in the North, and not about to come to a Monday Night class on the south coast! The new web-site is a fun place for dancers to see pics and gossip about dance. I even have a page where they can add their own picture galleries. Sure, there is stuff on there about where I teach - but that's not why I wanted to tell the forum people about it. I really hate the commercialisation of dance - so I have a page where ANYONE can list their dance events. And at my venue I put out ANYONE's leaflets who provides them to me. I offered to take leaflets from any Forum members back on the thread which I posted about my Brighton Venue a couple of months ago before Commercial Memberships came in ... so this is not a new line from me... but sadly that thread now seems to have been deleted in its entirety.

It would have been nice to have had some explanation as to why the postings (and the original thread) were removed.



If you look in the Social events area, you'll notice that it is buzzing as usual with discussiong of the Leroc competition, Hipsters, etc... pretty much the same as it was six months ago.

Sorry, but I don't agree. The Social Events area seems very flat - with major events getting the usual coverage perhaps, but not smaller local events.



I can understand your reluctance to pay the £150.00 to become a commercial member but the fact is that you are using the Forum in a commercial way, and as such (in my view) should shoulder some of the cost. Ceroc Ltd is not paying for the Forum, I am, and I am an independent promoter, as I run many nights, some successful, some where I'm investing a lot of time, effort and money into, I know the value of advertising, and to me paying around £12.00 a month for such a targetted medium seems very good value!

For the reasons given above, I see the Forum as a social thing, not a commercial tool. Most of the dancers are too far away from me for the Forum to be an effective means of advertising. There are a lot of South Coast Teachers and promoters on the Forum, who are not exactly hastening to take out Commercial Membership either - and probably for the same reason. But sadly, we now cannot let the small group of Southcoast dancers on here know about anything going on locally.... The people on here are instead friends who I've met at Weekenders etc and who might get some fun from the new site.... and that was my intent in telling people about it.


As BigDJiver said, anyone (including yourself) can start a discussion Forum and allow all and any advertising on it, but you'll find that £150.00 is what you end up paying monthly (rather than annually) :eek:

Errr - didn't specifically want to brag about it... but we do have a discussion lounge on my new strictlysinful site. And it is free :flower:

[Pammy]

I think our Franck does a marvellous job at running this forum :worthy: . The amount of time and money he has invested into the jive world, and more importantly, our pleasure is more than just commendable.

From my dealings with Franck, he is a selfless, committed friend to all of us on this forum who has dug deep into his own pocket over the years to ensure we can all enjoy this buzzing little community that has evolved, which we all thoroughly enjoy being a part of.

The growing rates that such forums cost to provide has resulted in a need for Franck to re-coup some of the monthly outgoings - judging by the number of fully paid members and given that our yearly subscriptions to the forum hardly seems to make a dent in the £200 a month Francks now having to pay out, I don't see why those who are making money from jive events should object to putting their hands in their pockets and paying something towards these costs. It's hardly unfair. What is unfair is when our poor old Franck is made to look like he's somehow imorrally gaining from our yearly subscriptions. Somehow I can't see our Franck living it up, night after night on the takings he's getting from his forum members....

Keep up the good work Franck!!! :clap: :clap: :hug:

[philsmove]

This in my opinion is a shame as it shows a lack of maturity of the MJ business model...


I am not an event organiser, but do run a small business and am aware how much advertising, promoting and maintaining my own web site (nothing to do with dance) costs


When I first read Mike’s post I assumed he was being charged £150 per advert but £150 for a whole year does not seem unreasonable

[DangerousCurves]

Who does indeed?
I never had any plans to charge either ....
I took the most sensible course of action, offered regular members the chance to pay a token amount to support the forum, and get more features in exchange, and started charging for all commercial members who benefit from the forum on a weekly basis.

I think that the silver membership idea was a very good one. I get a lot of fun from the Forum and was happy to immediately take out a subscription. I would be quite happy paying a higher fee to be honest :eek:

I can also see why the idea of commercial subscriptions is attractive - the only thing is that in my personal experience it has detracted from my enjoyment of the forum, since the people whose local news I used to enjoy reading can no longer post about their events. This may not be an issue for people in areas where it makes financial sense for local organisers to subscribe - but it is true of my area.

I don't write this to upset you, or imply criticism of your motives - far from it - but just to give you honest feedback on how the change in the membership structure has worked out.



I am not hitting the small independents at all, in fact, all it takes is for a couple of people to discover their events / nights each month for their fee to be recouped, and with the facility to advertise on the Social events, and to add events to the public calendar etc... this seems like a more than reasonable target.


and



DC,

What you need is a local organiser who is savvy enough to weigh up the things of which you speak above, and a charge of £12.50 a month to advertise/plug/inform all of goings on in his area.

Mmm: £12.50?? Maybe 2 entrance fees per month? Equates to 1/2 a person a week to justify the expense.

Is a lot to think about... :whistle:

:devil: :wink: :devil:

Sounds good in theory - but sadly doesn't work out quite that way. You see, I bet I pretty much know all the local dancers on the forum already (there's not actually that many of them).

And whilst people join the forum every day, I'm not seeing two people from my area joining every month. Even if they did... there is not going to be a 100% take up rate to rush along to a particular class.

So any promoter in my area taking out a commercial membership is not about to recoup his costs.

This is not said to denegrate the value of the commercial membership in areas where the forum has a lot of members - there I would agree it is a very focused marketing tool. Its simply not the case in my area.

[Mikey]

I think our Franck does a marvellous job at running this forum :worthy: . The amount of time and money he has invested into the jive world, and more importantly, our pleasure is more than just commendable.

From my dealings with Franck, he is a selfless, committed friend to all of us on this forum who has dug deep into his own pocket over the years to ensure we can all enjoy this buzzing little community that has evolved, which we all thoroughly enjoy being a part of.

The growing rates that such forums cost to provide has resulted in a need for Franck to re-coup some of the monthly outgoings - judging by the number of fully paid members and given that our yearly subscriptions to the forum hardly seems to make a dent in the £200 a month Francks now having to pay out, I don't see why those who are making money from jive events should object to putting their hands in their pockets and paying something towards these costs. It's hardly unfair. What is unfair is when our poor old Franck is made to look like he's somehow imorrally gaining from our yearly subscriptions. Somehow I can't see our Franck living it up, night after night on the takings he's getting from his forum members....

Keep up the good work Franck!!! :clap: :clap: :hug:

sorry if this isn't clear for you hun, but i am not and have not attacked franck, i do not disagree about how well he has done in the creation of this Forum. I am not saying he is making money out of it and partying on the profits either !!!

If costs needed to be recouped thats fair enough, but maybe we could have all discussed the best way to contribute to the mounting costs and maybe commercial memberships were not the best way forward for everyone... thats what i am discussing, not shooting Franck !!!

[Pammy]

And whilst people join the forum every day, I'm not seeing two people from my area joining every month. Even if they did... there is not going to be a 100% take up rate to rush along to a particular class.

So any promoter in my area taking out a commercial membership is not about to recoup his costs.

This is true, but also it should be noted therefore that advertising the event would only attract those same few people thus what would be the point.

There has to be a rule somewhere on what is/isn't allowed. Franck has decided as best he could and should be supported in his decision.

He's not trying to stop people making money, just trying to spread some (and by some, it's hardly even breaking the surface) of the costs, which seems pretty fair to me. :flower:

I've been involved in running websites and forums in the past (on a much smaller scale than our Franck :worthy: ) but I have learnt that you can never please everyone with choices you have to make. All you can do is try and please the majority, which I think Franck does here. Infact I think Franck more than does that.

I certainly don't think that the forum has been spoilt by costs. I would never use the world "spoilt". At times I have felt the forum has lost some of the "buzz" it used to have, which is sad. This, I feel, is simply down to the number of arguments and bickerings that have errupted on here as opposed to anything that Francks recent charges have started.

[Pammy]

thats what i am discussing, not shooting Franck !!!

Anyone who wants to shoot Franck has to shoot Boomer first! :devil: :whistle:

Pammy shoves poor old Boomer into the firing line instead of herself :rofl:

NO!!! :eek: Put the gun away, I was only joking :blush: :tears: :tears: :tears:

[Franck]

I can also see why the idea of commercial subscriptions is attractive - the only thing is that in my personal experience it has detracted from my enjoyment of the forum, since the people whose local news I used to enjoy reading can no longer post about their events. This may not be an issue for people in areas where it makes financial sense for local organisers to subscribe - but it is true of my area.

I don't write this to upset you, or imply criticism of your motives - far from it - but just to give you honest feedback on how the change in the membership structure has worked out.Thanks for the feedback, and I do agree with you that in an ideal world everything should be free and open. Maybe I should explain to my webhosts that their charges are discriminating against the growth of independent businesses in the South of England...
As I mentioned earlier only 3 or 4 posts have been removed since the Commercial membership was established, so you haven't missed any 'wonderful' announcement you didn't know about already.
In the same period, those whose advert had been removed have (with more or less success hi-jacked other threads (or created new ones such as this one) to bypass the fee and promote their events / website / party etc...


And whilst people join the forum every day, I'm not seeing two people from my area joining every month. Even if they did... there is not going to be a 100% take up rate to rush along to a particular class.

So any promoter in my area taking out a commercial membership is not about to recoup his costs.There are many classes and events going on in your area, and as such, people face a choice every time they decide to go out dancing. They might go to their local, or they might try out that new class / party that they read about on the Forum, especially as so many of their friends seem to be going too... they don't need to be new members, all you need is 2 or 3 people deciding to give your event a go as a result of reading about it here to make a difference!

[Andy McGregor]

I think our Franck does a marvellous job at running this forum :worthy: .

-snip-

Keep up the good work Franck!!! :clap: :clap: :hug:

:yeah:

I agree with Pammy.

As I said at the time Franck started charging, I don't think Franck will recoup his costs, let alone get paid for the time he spends moderating and programming.

This Forum costs Franck to run. If an organiser were to advertise his/her event on here he would profit from that advertising - I can think of no other reason for an organiser/teacher/etc to promote his/her event here other than to recruit customers. And, in recruiting those customers, increase his/her profit. So there you have it: Franck pays, others profit - and unfair situation IMHO.

I am pleased to contribute to Franck's costs and believe that the commercial membership fee is justified.

[Andy McGregor]

There are many classes and events going on in your area, and as such, people face a choice every time they decide to go out dancing. They might go to their local, or they might try out that new class / party that they read about on the Forum, especially as so many of their friends seem to be going too... they don't need to be new members, all you need is 2 or 3 people deciding to give your event a go as a result of reading about it here to make a difference!

Again I think Franck is right. Using the Southport weekend as an example, I think that a number of Forumites went to this weekend because they read it on here. How many would it have needed before the organiser got his £150 back?

[Mikey]

In the same period, those whose advert had been removed have (with more or less success hi-jacked other threads (or created new ones such as this one) to bypass the fee and promote their events / website / party etc...


:sick: If i had been looking for free advertising I would have started a far less controversial thread and kept a few more friends as a result !!!

EG: come and see the photos of kittens wearing strictlysinful t shirts :rofl:


It really was an issue i wanted to discuss and I must admit i am pleased to see the thread has galvanised everyone into action.. :clap:

Doubt i will ever get a dance off Pammy again though either.. :tears:

[Mikey]

Again I think Franck is right. Using the Southport weekend as an example, I think that a number of Forumites went to this weekend because they read it on here. How many would it have needed before the organiser got his £150 back?
sadly andy , you have missed the goalpost... The Southport weekender is a huge event and obviously it would have benefitted from advertising on here...
Do you think you or I would benefit from paying £150 a year ? Have you put your hand in your pocket out of interest ?(If he does Franck, I want commision.. :rofl: IE: 1 Free post !!! :whistle: )

[Gadget]

Ironically, there is a wee discussion lounge attached to Mikey's new site, where anything and everything can be discussed.
That's not irony - that's using this dance forum and web site to advertise another dance related forum and web site. I could understand it if there was a reciprocal link, or if even if Mikey said "I have put pictures up of XYZ on my web site here (url\photos)"

However the post was more "I have a new web site (url) that has some photos on it and details of my classes and stuff.": There has been a lot of discussion about advertising rival venues from within established ones... how does this differ?


Advertising on the web is something I have recently been looking into for my current employer and the main 'problem' is that it's a World-Wide-Web - while you may hit your target demographic, it's much harder to hit them in the right geographical area.
I think perhaps if the "social events" was split into different regions, and promoters payed the regular 'silver' membership, but had to pay a surcharge per thread (/event) regarding their event it would seem better value.
Perhaps an option to either pay X(£10?) per "advert" or pay the yearly membership and get as many as you want. This way, people arranging one-off events could also consider it. Large events would want a post in each area, therefore ching Small events would only want local regional advertising, therefore pay less.
Anyone visiting a region could look it up and see who/what's on in that area.

I would also say that the "advertising" charge also allowed for the event to be placed in the calendar so it comes up on the front page.

Summary: I don't see a problem with charging for advertising - I just think that the model needs a bit of work.

[Dance Demon]

As I explained before, most forumites are in the North, and not about to come to a Monday Night class on the south coast!

Maybe not quite the case. If you look at the social events forum, the first ten threads mention events in:..............Bristol, Greenwich, Hipsters(London), Beach Boogie (Isle Of wight ), Chesham, Kettering, Ashtons, weston super Mare, Ealing, and Bournemouth. hardly what we scots would call the North. the first mention of any Scottish venue, is about 11th in the list, and that was the Scottish jivemasters. Yes This is the Ceroc SCOTLAND forum, but the majority of posters are from the home counties or further south. Just thought I would mention this, as I too have had a thread removed, which was advertising one of the few Scottish events that take place, and at that it is only a monthly freestyle, which does not earn large sums of money, consequently, i have not taken out a commercial membership either. however i understand where Franck is coming from re the cost to him personally, to provide us with this excellent forum, and accept the situation as it stands. I would point out though that I haven't resorted to handing out flyers at other peoples events either ( unless of course i have their permission to do so), At Route 66 we have flyers from various different organisations on our front desk, incuding Ceroc ones for the scottish comp.

[Mikey]

I think perhaps if the "social events" was split into different regions, and promoters payed the regular 'silver' membership, but had to pay a surcharge per thread (/event) regarding their event it would seem better value.
Perhaps an option to either pay X(£10?) per "advert" or pay the yearly membership and get as many as you want. This way, people arranging one-off events could also consider it. Large events would want a post in each area, therefore ching Small events would only want local regional advertising, therefore pay less.
Anyone visiting a region could look it up and see who/what's on in that area.

I would also say that the "advertising" charge also allowed for the event to be placed in the calendar so it comes up on the front page.

Summary: I don't see a problem with charging for advertising - I just think that the model needs a bit of work.


This is a excellent idea - although I can imagine it might be an awful lot of work for Franck to set up and run. Maybe it could be an idea for the future??

Rome wasn't built in a day!

[Gadget]

If he can set-up a big brother house, he can do anything!!! :D:D

[Franck]

Summary: I don't see a problem with charging for advertising - I just think that the model needs a bit of work.I agree with that, and I am still thinking the concept around.
I really appreciate the suggestions you make, and I had been considering a monthly commercial membership (which would allow a more modest outlay) but as far as I could tell, that would actually benefit the 'larger' one-off events rather than the small independent classes...

Keep the ideas coming, I am open to constructive suggestions and would love to find a solution that worked for everyone and didn't involve so much moderating...

[Emma]

I think our Franck does a marvellous job at running this forum :worthy: . The amount of time and money he has invested into the jive world, and more importantly, our pleasure is more than just commendable.

From my dealings with Franck, he is a selfless, committed friend to all of us on this forum who has dug deep into his own pocket over the years to ensure we can all enjoy this buzzing little community that has evolved, which we all thoroughly enjoy being a part of.

The growing rates that such forums cost to provide has resulted in a need for Franck to re-coup some of the monthly outgoings - judging by the number of fully paid members and given that our yearly subscriptions to the forum hardly seems to make a dent in the £200 a month Francks now having to pay out, I don't see why those who are making money from jive events should object to putting their hands in their pockets and paying something towards these costs. It's hardly unfair. What is unfair is when our poor old Franck is made to look like he's somehow imorrally gaining from our yearly subscriptions. Somehow I can't see our Franck living it up, night after night on the takings he's getting from his forum members....

Keep up the good work Franck!!! :clap: :clap: :hug:

Yeah. What she said! :)

Personally I do not feel that the introduction of the commercial membership has had any detrimental affect on the forum. In fact if anything, I think it's made it better because posts which are 'pure advertising' add nothing to the community. I certainly don't miss them.

I know that Franck has invested a great deal of his own money into the forum, and that the (entirely optional) individual and commercial membership fees don't even come close to covering that expense. I know the vast majority of forum members are with me in giving Franck our thanks for providing us with a community that has considerably enriched our dancing lives. :) :) :hug:

[DangerousCurves]

There has to be a rule somewhere on what is/isn't allowed. Franck has decided as best he could and should be supported in his decision.

He's not trying to stop people making money, just trying to spread some (and by some, it's hardly even breaking the surface) of the costs, which seems pretty fair to me. :flower:



I don't think you can recommend something more highly than to volunteer the information that you would happily pay more for it! :D

Its really not a question of "supporting" or "not supporting" Franck. Of course we all think he does an extraordinary and wonderful job, and we want him to continue making good decisions based on our feedback and his own good judgement ...this is simply a discussion... :flower:

[bigdjiver]

I suspect that the members of this forum, as a whole, would be in the "market leader" category, and few could be classed as beginners. Even if you get only one or two there they would lift most nights. One example, I, and many others, stopped dancing to watch Marc in action last Friday.

I heard this forum, Southport, and the quality of the Scottish dancers all mentioned at Bedford last night. I think that this forum has done far more that any of us can imagine for the MJ scene in general, and for Ceroc, and especially Ceroc Scotland. I have personally recommended two Bedford beginners going to work in Glasgow to the Ceroc scene there.

How much value has Hipsters got out of this forum, directly and indirectly? My guess would be at least £4,000. I would not be surprised if it were double that or more. A reads about it, tells B,C, D & E. One of them goes, tells ...

My guess is that Mikey has done exceedingly well out of it too, more than he realises.

[Andy McGregor]

and at that it is only a monthly freestyle, which does not earn large sums of money, consequently, i have not taken out a commercial membership either. however i understand where Franck is coming from re the cost to him personally, to provide us with this excellent forum, and accept the situation as it stands.

I agree with DD. I think that taking out the commercial membership is a commercial decision. It doesn't make commercial sense to advertise nationally for a local event unless the return justifies the investment. This might be the case for something that attracts people from miles around. But, like DD, I run a small local event and can't think of any benefit I'd get from advertising it on here: so I haven't taken out a commercial subscription.

If I do something that would attract people from far and wide I'll gladly pay the £150 as I think it's a good value way to communicate with hundreds of dancers.

[Mikey]

I agree with DD. I think that taking out the commercial membership is a commercial decision. It doesn't make commercial sense to advertise nationally for a local event unless the return justifies the investment. This might be the case for something that attracts people from miles around. But, like DD, I run a small local event and can't think of any benefit I'd get from advertising it on here: so I haven't taken out a commercial subscription.

If I do something that would attract people from far and wide I'll gladly pay the £150 as I think it's a good value way to communicate with hundreds of dancers.


I can hardly believe i am agreeing :what: But yes, Andy I entirely agree and it's the point I was trying make... :cheers:

[Gadget]

Keep the ideas coming, I am open to constructive suggestions and would love to find a solution that worked for everyone and didn't involve so much moderating...
I like to see adverts: I like to feel that I am special and all these people are clambering for my business. But I only want to see them when I am actually looking for something they are selling.

I still think that splitting the "Events" section into (eg)...
Scotland
North England
Central England
South England
London
Antipodeans
Rest of the World
(Note that Scotland comes first :whistle: )
... is a good idea, no matter what follows on from that.

As with "reported" or "outside" posts that moderators highlight, you could have a "Advert" class that moderators could put stuff into until approved (/paid for)

How to highlight ads...? Prefix the title with Ad: like "Poll:"? Have a "special member" who actually posts the ad (moderators can log in as them to add/edit/change/credit posts) Advertisers would PM the member with the advert and they would post it.
Don't know how payment or checking that a user had paid would work... Poss 'credit' the account from a PP payment of that person on a field that moderators could see on the user info screen?

Tag line of the "Advertiser" would be something like "PM adverts to me: only £10 per ad, pay through the button on your user control panel"

A bit of work to set-up, but once done, moderators could administer the ads instead of just the administrator.


{I know soneone who's boss was an imagineer... I just love that title: wish I was one :D}

[Andy McGregor]

I can hardly believe i am agreeing :what: But yes, Andy I entirely agree and it's the point I was trying make... :cheers:

:confused: :even more confused:

[spindr]

Well, from my perspective I've probably been to a venue 2/3 times since finding it mentioned here -- and brought along a friend -- so I guess that's 3/4 entry fees extra they've got from it being mentioned here.

To be honest from my naive punter viewpoint, I'd equate the commercial benefit as at least that of leaving a pile of leaflets at a competition, or similar venue -- although of course there are no printing costs, no travelling/postage costs to deliver them -- and its open 365/24/7. And it's a lot easier to fix typos and date mistakes :)

SpinDr.

[Andy McGregor]

However, I think this subject does need to be discussed as some people weren't on the Forum the last time there was a thread about it. IMHO this is Franck's forum: he is responsive to feedback: he is obviously intelligent and he's giving his time and money to this forum.

If there was a way for Franck to get a bit more money by offering a regional commercial membership then I'm all for it. Maybe there could be a Social Events section divided into a National Events section followed by a number of regional divisions. People could pay the £150 to post in the national section and pay a lesser sum to post in each regional section.

[Gus]

For what is worth thought I'd stick my two-penneth in. :devil:

To answer Mikey's question, "has commercial cost spoilt the forum" I would have to say NO. Personally I was starting to get a little sick of af ew forum members using the Forum purely as an advertising medium for their own events. I alwys fekt that the forum was an area for discussion and debate. Those that solely used it for promotion may well have killed the golden goose.

As mentioned previously in a post ... advertising costs! Why should anyone expect a freebie. If you think it is worth the cost then you pay ... if you don't, you don't pay. At the moment I dont think that I could make a return on #150 through this advertising medium ... though there may well come a point in the future when it is.

The old argument about "free speech" is fine ... when someone has made all the effort and incurred the cost to create a platform to make advertising so easy. If I remember correctly, that was the view that the Southport orgnaisers use as their justification for flyering car parks of other Jive Organisations. Given Mikey's close ties with Jive Addiction I would have thought the easiest way to promote his activities would be to use their mailing list ... I'm sure they wouldnt charge him for it ... and he could then be far more selective in targeting who gets his ads. :grin: As for me .... I'm going to follow the example laid out by Jive Addiction and will be flyering all the cars at the next few Southport Events ... lot cheaper than paying #150 ( :wink: :waycool: :devil: ) ... only joking of course :whistle:

[Mikey]

For what is worth thought I'd stick my two-penneth in. :devil:

To answer Mikey's question, "has commercial cost spoilt the forum" I would have to say NO.

Personal opinion, duely noted and glad to have your views too...




The old argument about "free speech" is fine ... when someone has made all the effort and incurred the cost to create a platform to make advertising so easy. If I remember correctly, that was the view that the Southport orgnaisers use as their justification for flyering car parks of other Jive Organisations..

Just in case there is any confusion here, in 14 years of teaching etc i have never flyered a car park for any reason what so ever.. and think it a poor way to promote.. even in retaliation..


Given Mikey's close ties with Jive Addiction I would have thought the easiest way to promote his activities would be to use their mailing list ... I'm sure they wouldnt charge him for it ... and he could then be far more selective in targeting who gets his ads. :grin: :

They have actually set up a recprical link from thier website to my website, just the same as others have done .. and we are discussing some joint promotions for this coming Septembers event in Southport. However, i find targeting my local dancers the most effective use of my advertising budget and have taken out adverts in several local papers and online local event guides too..


As for me .... I'm going to follow the example laid out by Jive Addiction and will be flyering all the cars at the next few Southport Events ... lot cheaper than paying #150 ( :wink: :waycool: :devil: ) ... only joking of course :whistle:

You would save yourself a lot of shoe leather if you just put them on the table like everyone else did last time at the Southport event. If you want your flyers out at thier very successful event in Southport, then simply ask to do an exchange of flyers and they will oblige i am sure.. but i suspect you might rather loose a limb first.. pride over business.. many have done it, including myself in the past years... :sad:

[Mikey]

However, I think this subject does need to be discussed as some people weren't on the Forum the last time there was a thread about it. IMHO this is Franck's forum: he is responsive to feedback: he is obviously intelligent and he's giving his time and money to this forum.

If there was a way for Franck to get a bit more money by offering a regional commercial membership then I'm all for it. Maybe there could be a Social Events section divided into a National Events section followed by a number of regional divisions. People could pay the £150 to post in the national section and pay a lesser sum to post in each regional section.

your killing me here... I have to agree again Andy... :tears:

[Mikey]

Okay from a punters point of view I don't want to read threads like this....

It's a choice you make personally hun.. no one forces it in your face, but plenty of people are enjoying debating a serious issue :what:


It feels like someones walked into someone else's house ignored the house rules and thrown a few plates about to make a scene.....

No one has been abusive on the thread or personal, apart from one slip by your favourite friend andy in his footnotes...


Okay a scene has been made, and you have had some attention, Mikey, but have you raised these things with Frank earlier on a one to one basis? .....

Actually yes i have had a private chat between myself and franck and he is quite happy the point has been raised, and some very good ideas and suggestions are coming forward which otherwise might never have been voiced.. :grin:
QUOTE]

Cleary you are someone who has a personal problem with me for whatever reason, fine , not everyone is likeable in this world, if we were how boring would that be eh... But should the Forum improve as a result of this debate, then all members will benefit, which is the whole point of this thread. Stiffling debate kills the opportunity for honest feedback and ultimate improvement..

bye :clap:

[DianaS]

Originally Posted by Dianas
It feels like someones walked into someone else's house ignored the house rules and thrown a few plates about to make a scene.....

Originally Posted by Mikey
No one has been abusive on the thread or personal, apart from one slip by your favourite friend andy in his footnotes...

I think your mis-understanding me, my perceptions are that your origional advertising message was removed and rather than open the issue with Frank on a one to one basis then open the area up for discussion you walked into his "house" to publically challenge him. If you thought that what you were doing was okay, surely you wouldn't have anticipated that the new thread would be removed?


Originally Posted by Dianas
Okay a scene has been made, and you have had some attention, Mikey, but have you raised these things with Frank earlier on a one to one basis? .....

Originally Posted by Mikey
Actually yes i have had a private chat between myself and franck and he is quite happy the point has been raised, and some very good ideas and suggestions are coming forward which otherwise might never have been voiced..

Well would it have been better to raise it with Franck before you made the origional or second new thread postings? I private messaged him before I opened a thread on Beach Boogie out of courtesy and surely behaving with courtesy in someone else's home is the least we should expect?

Originally Posted by Mikey
Cleary you are someone who has a personal problem with me for whatever reason, fine , not everyone is likeable in this world, if we were how boring would that be eh... But should the Forum improve as a result of this debate, then all members will benefit, which is the whole point of this thread. Stiffling debate kills the opportunity for honest feedback and ultimate improvement..

Hmmm Mikey, there's debate, and there pressure group politics, and I wonder whether you were using the forum as a means to exert pressure on our host rather than to stimulate debate. That's where I take issue with you, its concerning the use and misuse of private and public space, for me it's a professional issue rather than personal one, learning and communication technology is my trade, and I actively debate its use and development.

[Mikey]

If you thought that what you were doing was okay, surely you wouldn't have anticipated that the new thread would be removed?.

Errr... joke??... the remark was meant lightly, not literally.. hence the smiley.. :confused:


... surely behaving with courtesy in someone else's home is the least we should expect?.

Sorry, maybe it's me, but I was sure this was a forum for debate.. enough said.. :rolleyes: I have made it clear in repeated postings that no criticism of Franck was implied, I am merely asking for debate on a change made to the forum, not anyone's personal morality etc. All debate has been polite and considered. Good suggestions are being made - which could benefit all - Franck included.


... Hmmm Mikey, there's debate, and there pressure group politics, and I wonder whether you were using the forum as a means to exert pressure on our host rather than to stimulate debate..

Group ? what pressure group... most who have posted have publically disagreed - though some have also made excellent suggestions to make things even better, but I have had messages both privately and via e mail supporting the views I expressed from people who do not want to make a public statement and take the heat...


... That's where I take issue with you, its concerning the use and misuse of private and public space, for me it's a professional issue rather than personal one, learning and communication technology is my trade, and I actively debate its use and development.


The function of a forum is to permit people to express views, even ones which not everyone will agree with...it would be a waste of this public space if only voices in agreement were heard...

As for your claim your posting is a professional view and not a personal one.. might Iremind you your first posting on this thread was far from impersonal...

To refresh your distant memory...


..."Never mind Andy, I don't read him either, mainly 'cas I don''t like some aspects of what he teachers, to me it isn't dance, and if I wanted people acting like that with me I wouldn't be so sad to pay for it!".

I may not enjoy reading your personal view of myself considering you have never met me I suspect, nor spent time in my company, you have seen me teach and judged the book by it's cover at best - but I uphold your right to express yourself in this public space (without needing to send me a private message to clear it first :nice: )

However, I would like to see this thread get back on topic...
:yeah:

[Chickadee]

I can hardly believe i am agreeing :what: But yes, Andy I entirely agree and it's the point I was trying make... :cheers:

:really: I am in complete shock! :wink:

[Forte]

I think our Franck does a marvellous job at running this forum :worthy: . The amount of time and money he has invested into the jive world, and more importantly, our pleasure is more than just commendable.

From my dealings with Franck, he is a selfless, committed friend to all of us on this forum who has dug deep into his own pocket over the years to ensure we can all enjoy this buzzing little community that has evolved, which we all thoroughly enjoy being a part of.

The growing rates that such forums cost to provide has resulted in a need for Franck to re-coup some of the monthly outgoings - judging by the number of fully paid members and given that our yearly subscriptions to the forum hardly seems to make a dent in the £200 a month Francks now having to pay out, I don't see why those who are making money from jive events should object to putting their hands in their pockets and paying something towards these costs. It's hardly unfair. What is unfair is when our poor old Franck is made to look like he's somehow imorrally gaining from our yearly subscriptions. Somehow I can't see our Franck living it up, night after night on the takings he's getting from his forum members....

Keep up the good work Franck!!! :clap: :clap: :hug:
:yeah: :clap:

[Forte]

Actually yes i have had a private chat between myself and franck and he is quite happy the point has been raised, and some very good ideas and suggestions are coming forward which otherwise might never have been voiced.. :grin:
QUOTE]

bye :clap:


Somehow it doesn;t surprise me that Franck is happy to have points raised.. in my limited knowledge of him He is a really open special generous kinda business minded :clap: guy... :clap:

[Gus]

If you want your flyers out at thier very successful event in Southport, then simply ask to do an exchange of flyers and they will oblige i am sure.. but i suspect you might rather loose a limb first.. pride over business.. many have done it, including myself in the past years... :sad:

Not really a case of loosing limbs. I choose very carefully those who I do business with. There is no denying that Southport was very succesful and very well run ... however, if I have ethical reservations about those running the event I feel it would be rather two-faced for me to ignore that reservation just to save a few bucks. Integrity should always win out over commerciality dont you agree?

[Mikey]

Not really a case of loosing limbs. I choose very carefully those who I do business with. There is no denying that Southport was very succesful and very well run ... however, if I have ethical reservations about those running the event I feel it would be rather two-faced for me to ignore that reservation just to save a few bucks. Integrity should always win out over commerciality dont you agree?


In princible yes, integrity should be paramount. However as falible human beings we should always check whether we really have an ethical issue or whether we are just being stubborn for some other reason, again one we are all guilty of from time to time. I personally have no reservations about Jive Addiction and I am only too aware that every story has two sides.. :wink:

[RobC]

I would point out though that I haven't resorted to handing out flyers at other peoples events either ( unless of course i have their permission to do so),
Unlike one certain poster on this thread (at least according to a 2nd hand story I heard). He even tried handing one of his flyers to the franchise owner without realising who they were !!! :rofl:

At Route 66 we have flyers from various different organisations on our front desk, incuding Ceroc ones for the scottish comp.
Down here in Sunny Hampshire, we always have flyers out for both Ceroc and non-Ceroc events. Some (of the non-ceroc events) even get advirtised by the teachers at the end of the classes.

Unfortunately Simon doesn't use the forum, and I don't know if I can persuade him to pay for a commercial membership for me to advirtise the Ceroc Plus classes / events that might be coming up in the not too distant future.

I suppose I could always get around it but putting it in my signature :whistle:

[Tiggerbabe]

I suppose I could always get around it but putting it in my signature :whistle:
No, you couldn't - because it would still be blatant advertising and as such would be removed. If you feel that you want to have people read it every time you post - then surely it would be worth the £12.50 monthly you're being asked to pay? :whistle:
As for your picture Mikey - do you honestly believe that people reading the forum are so naive as to not work out why the picture was there? :what:
Personally, if you are in business I can't see the problem with expecting to pay money to advertise your product..........you wouldn't expect a national newspaper to carry an advert without paying for it, nor your local printer to run up leaflets out of the goodness of his heart.

In answer to your original question Mikey - then no I don't believe it has. I'm quite happy (and in total agreement with Pammy, Em, CJ, Gus and Andy to name but a few) not to have to read posts by those who come on purely to advertise their events.

The Ceroc Scotland Forum has been a tremendous success through Franck's tireless efforts, hard work and foresight. :worthy: :worthy:

[Gordon J Pownall]

The Ceroc Scotland Forum has been a tremendous success through Franck's tireless efforts, hard work and foresight. :worthy: :worthy:

:yeah:

...and in defence, many people indirectly advertise by simple thread labels such as Bristol 2004 or JiveMasters etc etc etc...

If I am reading this right, then blatant commercial advertising comes at a price on the forum - fair do's....

Indirect advertising of an event by punters as opposed to business owners / franchisees, is OK and accepted as it tends to be along the lines of, "...anyone going to Chesham tonight..."....

I pay for advertising in the local paper, I pay for my own website and pay to have the website advertised, I pay to have the website listed in search engines.....

It's just part of running a business (an it can be offset against tax / VAT).....

[Gus]

I personally have no reservations about Jive Addiction and I am only too aware that every story has two sides.. :wink: Only two? That brings it down a little. You should try the debate about who actualy started Ceroc/LeRoc .... :devil:

Think Sheena has summarised things nicely. There are those that think that all information should be available to all at no cost ... then they should do what Mikey (and other have done) set up their own website to advertise ... just dont expect everyone else to have to advertise you site.

Re Gordon's point, reciprocal advertising is the way forward .. unfortunately the majority of offers to reciprocate seem to come from people with no database of their own so its a bit one sided. I've also been stitched a few time by me putting out flyers for events but them not doing likewise :sad:. The only flyers I make an effort with these days are for the main comeptitons and anything by Beach Boggie and Rock Bottoms ...... oh and Route 66 if they send me some more flyers :wink:

[Lou]

:yeah: ...and in defence, many people indirectly advertise by simple thread labels such as Bristol 2004

Yup - but that thread was started quite some time before Franck created the commercial account option. :nice:

FWIW, because I don't have an organisation to promote, I'll miss the chance to post stuff like that for altruistic purposes (or as Gordy put it - "indirectly advertise" ;) ). The annual Bristol comp was the only thing I'd ever post on there - and to be honest it was mostly just to see who was coming down to visit us! :)

I think I'll miss the "social side" of that forum - but it's a small sacrifice as I totally understand Franck's decision to charge for the priviledge.

[Gadget]

I don't think that there will be a blanket ban on "I'm going, who else is coming down for XXX" type posts; just the ones "We are holding an event; please come".

There-in lies the difficulty in charging for advertising - It's really up to the person posting an advert how much their ethics get in the way: As Franck said, the "advertising" posters that were removed just re-worded the advert so that it was less of an advert and more of a "legitemate" post, hence getting the information accross and stimulating discussion.

{or that's how I am reading it anyway... I'm sure that someone will correct me.}

[Forte]

FWIW, because I don't have an organisation to promote, I'll miss .
Erm... what does FWIW mean...? :confused: Please... :nice:

[Forte]

FWIW, because I don't have an organisation to promote, I'll miss .
Erm... what does FWIW mean...? :confused: Please... :nice:
Just got a PM explaining it! :rofl: For what it's worth and IMHO I think that was very thoughtful...ta!

[johnah]

I agree with that, and I am still thinking the concept around.
I really appreciate the suggestions you make, and I had been considering a monthly commercial membership (which would allow a more modest outlay) but as far as I could tell, that would actually benefit the 'larger' one-off events rather than the small independent classes...

Keep the ideas coming, I am open to constructive suggestions and would love to find a solution that worked for everyone and didn't involve so much moderating...

Franck, you have done and continue to do a great job with the Forum. And, certainly, from Jive Addiction's point of view the Forum helped to spread the word about the first Southport Extravadanca.

You went further than allowing this, because you also distributed leaflets for us at Beach Ballroom. In return, we offered you reciprocal leaflet distribution at Southport and put a link on our website.

Wes and I were grateful for your support in our event's infancy, and we were delighted to host a reception for Ceroc Scotland Forumites at Southport. We also had no problem with honouring reciprocal agreements about literature with the many organisers who also supported us, and this policy will be maintained at all our events.

We believe that dancers should be able to make informed choices and to do that they need information. Jive Addiction endeavours to provide information about its events through its own database, reciprocal efforts and appropriate websites. The Ceroc Scotland Forum is an appropriate medium to us.

So, Franck, Jive Addiction will be happy to support you now, we are well aware of the costs to maintain your site. Please send us your invoice for Commercial Membership at £150 and our payment will wing its way to you.

:cheers:

JohnAH
www.jiveaddiction.com

[Gus]

Franck, you have done and continue to do a great job with the Forum. And, certainly, from Jive Addiction's point of view the Forum helped to spread the word about the first Southport Extravadanca.

We believe that dancers should be able to make informed choices and to do that they need information. .......The Ceroc Scotland Forum is an appropriate medium to us.

So, Franck, Jive Addiction will be happy to support you now, we are well aware of the costs to maintain your site. Please send us your invoice for Commercial Membership at £150 and our payment will wing its way to you.



Can't argue with that :grin:

[Sheepman]

You will need a Commercial membership to be able to start a thread / publicize your event. I haven't started any "who's going to ..." threads since the changes in the forum, but having a quick look at the Social Events, it is clear that plenty of people without the commercial licence have.

I think it is perfectly reasonable that advertising on the forum should be charged for, as has already been discussed, the difficulty is in making that cost a reasonable one for the particular event. There may be around 1000 members of the forum, but geographically they are very widespread, and how many even look at it on a regular basis? Inevitably with this spread, it is national events that are going to gain the most benefit, (eg weekenders/competitions.) If it is a regular local class then few people are going to be prepared to travel long distances to it. (Maybe with one notable exception.)

For those of you that don't know, I regularly DJ at a small club, so in the past I have posted details for the club. There is certainly no personal gain in doing so for me, and as far as I can tell, there has been no benefit to the club. A few more people know it exists, but they are too far away to ever come along. As I am connected with the club, I would say it has to count as advertising, but if I did this only as a punter then presumably it is not?

We cannot expect Franck to define what is, and what isn't, advertising, because there will always be those who will want to get around such rules, so it has to be a matter of discretion. With the costs Franck has to bear on running the forum, I'm all for anything that will maximise the income. I like the idea of regionally based advertising at a reduced cost. Are there organisers out there prepared to say that they would go with such an approach, and at what cost?

A final thought, how many event organisers reciprocate by advertising the forum (& the benefits of subscription) at their venues?

Greg

[Andy McGregor]

So, Franck, Jive Addiction will be happy to support you now, we are well aware of the costs to maintain your site. Please send us your invoice for Commercial Membership at £150 and our payment will wing its way to you.

:cheers:

JohnAH
www.jiveaddiction.com

:yeah:

[DianaS]

Franck, you have done and continue to do a great job with the Forum. And, certainly, from Jive Addiction's point of view the Forum helped to spread the word about the first Southport Extravadanca.

You went further than allowing this, because you also distributed leaflets for us at Beach Ballroom. In return, we offered you reciprocal leaflet distribution at Southport and put a link on our website.

Wes and I were grateful for your support in our event's infancy, and we were delighted to host a reception for Ceroc Scotland Forumites at Southport. We also had no problem with honouring reciprocal agreements about literature with the many organisers who also supported us, and this policy will be maintained at all our events.

We believe that dancers should be able to make informed choices and to do that they need information. Jive Addiction endeavours to provide information about its events through its own database, reciprocal efforts and appropriate websites. The Ceroc Scotland Forum is an appropriate medium to us.

So, Franck, Jive Addiction will be happy to support you now, we are well aware of the costs to maintain your site. Please send us your invoice for Commercial Membership at £150 and our payment will wing its way to you.

:cheers:

JohnAH
www.jiveaddiction.com

Well sorted, John,

I had a great time at Southport and got linked to this forum after the event to keep up with the new friends that I made (note the date of registering here!)

It's so good to see a happy ending! :flower:

[Mikey]

I haven't started any "who's going to ..." threads since the changes in the forum, but having a quick look at the Social Events, it is clear that plenty of people without the commercial licence have.

I think it is perfectly reasonable that advertising on the forum should be charged for, as has already been discussed, the difficulty is in making that cost a reasonable one for the particular event. There may be around 1000 members of the forum, but geographically they are very widespread, and how many even look at it on a regular basis? Inevitably with this spread, it is national events that are going to gain the most benefit, (eg weekenders/competitions.) If it is a regular local class then few people are going to be prepared to travel long distances to it. (Maybe with one notable exception.)

For those of you that don't know, I regularly DJ at a small club, so in the past I have posted details for the club. There is certainly no personal gain in doing so for me, and as far as I can tell, there has been no benefit to the club. A few more people know it exists, but they are too far away to ever come along. As I am connected with the club, I would say it has to count as advertising, but if I did this only as a punter then presumably it is not?

We cannot expect Franck to define what is, and what isn't, advertising, because there will always be those who will want to get around such rules, so it has to be a matter of discretion. With the costs Franck has to bear on running the forum, I'm all for anything that will maximise the income. I like the idea of regionally based advertising at a reduced cost. Are there organisers out there prepared to say that they would go with such an approach, and at what cost?

This posting is excellent, it actually gets to the heart of the issues.. nice one Sheepman...

I would be interested in a regionally targeted approach or possibly a one off even.... cost, well, that depends on just how many people there was in the region to reach.. so that would need discussion with franck to reach and adequate figure for both sides.... :cheers:


A final thought, how many event organisers reciprocate by advertising the forum (& the benefits of subscription) at their venues?
Greg

I offered in a PM to Franck to put a link from my website to the Scottish Forum and I still stand by that offer :grin:

As for flyers etc.. as anyone who truly knows me will tell you, I will carry anyones flyers etc if they take the time to either send them or bring them to my venue... :cheers:

[bigdjiver]

I offered in a PM to Franck to put a link from my website to the Scottish Forum and I still stand by that offer :grin:
My suspicious mind tells me that that would be an offer of a reciprocal link :devil: I really would like to be wrong ...

[Mikey]

My suspicious mind tells me that that would be an offer of a reciprocal link :devil: I really would like to be wrong ...

Actually you are wrong for two reasons... :angry:

1.. This is a Ceroc forum and as you well know Ceroc do not have links to other organisations that I know of...

2. Since franck has nowhere on this forum that he does links to other websites or such like.. why would i expect him to do it for me ? :devil:

I did not ask for a reciprocal link, nor did i expect one.. since the Forum itself is a fairly unique in it's set up.... shame your mind thought that way, mine didn't.. sorry to disappoint you...

[RobC]

1.. This is a Ceroc forum and as you well know Ceroc do not have links to other organisations that I know of...

Actually, I beg to differ - the Ceroc Plus links (http://www.cerocplus.co.uk/html/links.html) page links to several non-ceroc organisations.

[Mikey]

Actually, I beg to differ - the Ceroc Plus links (http://www.cerocplus.co.uk/html/links.html) page links to several non-ceroc organisations.

mmmmmm.. yes.. and in the category of other "Modern Jive Dance organisations" it lists a grand total of 2 and oops.. sorry 1 of them is ceroc guilford.. and the other is "jivebug" , which is now actually Ceroc Plus.. Ok.. so what links does jivebug have... cerocplus, ceroc gulidford and MonsterJiveCocktail.. err.. MJC.. who bought into that again ?... not Ceroc was it by any chance... but it's a start i suppose... :wink:

Sorry for the sarcasm in this reply RobC... but lets be honest... apart from various other links to Lindy or general listing organisations.. which are not what you would call direct competitors.. it's very.. errmm "CEROC" in truth...

would they like to set a link up with me i wonder ? :whistle: somehow I doubt it, don't you.. ?

[Tiggerbabe]

2. Since franck has nowhere on this forum that he does links to other websites or such like.. why would i expect him to do it for me ? :devil:

There are various links here (http://cerocscotland.com/links.htm)

[Mikey]

There are various links here (http://cerocscotland.com/links.htm)

Your point is what Sheena ? Every link is to other Ceroc organisations.. no NON ceroc organisations, unless it's a listing site like uk jive or lindas list... or maybe a large Uk event like chance2dance...

as i said in point 1..

1.. This is a Ceroc forum and as you well know Ceroc do not have links to other organisations that I know of...

perhaps clarification is required..

"... other dance organisations that I know of..."

It would be more benificial if we discussed some of the excellent ideas brought forward in this Debate by the likes of Gadget instead of nit picking at what I have had to say all the time.. RobC's original quiery was whether my offer of the link was strictly on a recripical basic, I thought I had answered that already :sick:

By the way... the point you highlighted regards links on this Forum.. there are no links directly fom this forum.. the page you brought attention to is part of Ceroc Scotlands pages itself.. not this forum...

[bigdjiver]

Actually you are wrong for two reasons... :angry:

1.. This is a Ceroc forum and as you well know Ceroc do not have links to other organisations that I know of...

2. Since franck has nowhere on this forum that he does links to other websites or such like.. why would i expect him to do it for me ? :devil:

I did not ask for a reciprocal link, nor did i expect one.. since the Forum itself is a fairly unique in it's set up.... shame your mind thought that way, mine didn't.. sorry to disappoint you... Apologies, and far from disappointed I am very pleased. :cheers:
Now I am wondering why Franck would refuse permission for a no-obligation, no reciprocity, link. :confused: I think that the more people that know about this forum the better.
The spirit of Scottish independence, perhaps?

[Mikey]

Apologies, and far from disappointed I am very pleased. :cheers:
Now I am wondering why Franck would refuse permission for a no-obligation, no reciprocity, link. :confused: I think that the more people that know about this forum the better.
The spirit of Scottish independence, perhaps?

Apology accepted Big Man... :worthy: Franck has not actually refused, simply not responded to it yet, no problem to me either way.... :waycool:

[RobC]

and the other is "jivebug" , which is now actually Ceroc Plus..
FYI, yes JiveBug Fleet did become Ceroc Plus, but Marilene continues to run JiveBug, offering Modern Jive Workshops and West Coast Swing classes.

... apart from various other links to Lindy or general listing organisations.. which are not what you would call direct competitors..
and since Ceroc Plus offers Lindy Hop classes, in what way are these not direct competitors ? Besides, I think that you are being incredibly naive if you don't consider dance classes for other dance styles as competitors. Historically, most people seem to leave modern jive venues to go to learn other styles such as salsa and lindy hop.



It would be more benificial if we discussed some of the excellent ideas brought forward in this Debate by the likes of Gadget instead of nit picking at what I have had to say all the time.. RobC's original quiery was whether my offer of the link was strictly on a recripical basic, I thought I had answered that already
Well since we are nit picking - the original query was from bigdjiver, not me. My post was purely educating and enlightening you about an area you obviously had no knowledge of, even though you were offering an opinion.

[Mikey]

FYI, yes JiveBug Fleet did become Ceroc Plus, but Marilene continues to run JiveBug, offering Modern Jive Workshops and West Coast Swing classes.

and since Ceroc Plus offers Lindy Hop classes, in what way are these not direct competitors ? Besides, I think that you are being incredibly naive if you don't consider dance classes for other dance styles as competitors. Historically, most people seem to leave modern jive venues to go to learn other styles such as salsa and lindy hop.


Well since we are nit picking - the original query was from bigdjiver, not me. My post was purely educating and enlightening you about an area you obviously had no knowledge of, even though you were offering an opinion.

Rob in all honesty the picture can be painted and tinted in many ways... hairs can be spilt and words can be twisted.....

I recall a conversation we had once about Ceroc taking over and creating the Ceroc Plus bit.. you told me you and several others were to be trained as Ceroc teachers.. has the promise made good yet ? I hope it has in honesty...

Anyway..I shall leave all this side tracked chat now and await in hope of further discussion on this original debate... lets see what other excellent ideas come forward from people on how to help the small organisor advertise on here at a reasonable cost... :cheers:

[johnah]

A final thought, how many event organisers reciprocate by advertising the forum (& the benefits of subscription) at their venues?

Greg


A very interesting topic Greg. I originally heard about the Forum from a friend, then visited the site. Apart from at 2 [Blackpool & Southport] or possibly 3 [inc Hammersmith] events, the Forum appears to sadly lack reciprocal advertising of any description.

At Jive Addiction, we value the Forum. Indeed, we liked the idea so much, we added one to our website for dancers attending our events to keep in touch. We also have a direct link to this Forum from our website, host a reception at Southport for Forumites, and welcome display of their banner and literature. Now I can't be absolutely sure, but I think we are the only organisation of our type that willingly promotes the Forum in this way.

Of course, we have now gone further by agreeing to take out commercial membership too. It will be interesting to see if any other promoters of weekenders/freestyles follow suit!
:cheers:

www.jiveaddiction.com

[Lounge Lizard]

Well I think mikey could be right
this forum is a dance based discussion group
it is used for talking all points relating to dance
whats on
whats it like
where is it
was the music/dancers/venue any good
can we meet there etc.etc

I will be honest I do not know what the commercial membership is about, but if it means I (as an organiser) have to pay to get my venues on this forum...... but one of my dancers (a non organiser) can mention/promote it without paying it seem flawed

What is THE most talked about venue/event on the Ceroc Scotland Dance Forum........HIPTERS

Standard posting from a non London forum member 'I am coming to London should I go to Hipsters'
Yet it can be one of the quietest venue in London and has never been directly promoted on this forum by any of the organisers.

I guess I am totaly wrong with this but could as a result of the commercial fee, we be faced with a senario where.....
Peter/Mikey/Gus etc having to pay £150 (or whatever is charged) to get their events onto the forum but Hipsters will continue to get free un-moderated publicity?
Or will all threads relating to Hipsters/Jive Bar/Ceroc Plus be moderated to remove unapproved and unpaid for advertising...

Even if I am way off track with tthis it will probably add to the debate

For the dancers that think all advertising is a good thing, my most successfull advertising has been free information in 'whats on' listings and free busking, my worst £1000 radio advertising.

Ok advertising on the forum would be great for some, and help franck but not for majority of organisers
about a week ago there was a big effort to get the maximum numbers on line at one time...the target........55 not exactly massive and not representative of the dancers within the MJ community. (I think it was a failed attempt)

So my £150 advertising may only reach a small group of die hard forumites not the 1000's of dancers out there.
Like any advertising medium I would like to see the readership increase before i pays my money
Peter

[Andy McGregor]

This is how I see it.

1. Franck put up a forum for his customers to chat.
2. Hundreds of other chatty dancers joined increasing the usage of Francks website.
3. This meant that Franck's Internet Service Provider started chaging Franck for this extra usage.
4. Franck has attempted to recover some of his costs by asking his users to chip in - some of us have willingly done so.
5. Some people benefit from advertising on here so Franck has asked them to pay if they advertise - after all why should Franck pay for someone else's advertising?
6. The non-commercial members of the forum still chat about where they're going, where they've been, etc (as we are about our outing to Ashtons tomorrow).
7. But, people posting for commercial gain are spotted and have their posts removed. They didn't like it :tears:
8. People bleated on about freedom of speech: of course they've still got that. But you wouldn't expect to get free advertising or even say anything you want on the local radio station so why expect it here? :confused:
9. At the end of the day this is Francks playground, he can make up the rules, he can change the rules and he can decide how he interprets them too. But I think Franck is very fair and he's just asking people who gain from promoting their product on here to chip in. And, it seems to me that Franck is open to suggestions on price based on how much the advertiser might stand to gain from his promotion. All hail Franck :worthy:

So, in conclusion, I don't think the commercial posters being asked to pay has spoilt the forum - if it was spoilt people wouldn't want to advertise here so it's an odd question to ask. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. And, if you don't like it you can always start your own Forum: I suggest that's what the whiny people should do and leave us to our inane chatter and debate about dance :mad:

[paulyboy]

this is not a attack on anybody
just a question as this forum is now chargable for commercial purposes if an organisation wishes to advertise events e.t.c
are the charges tax deductable
for that organisation
and can receipts be obtained for the charges

[Franck]

So my £150 advertising may only reach a small group of die hard forumites not the 1000's of dancers out there.
Like any advertising medium I would like to see the readership increase before i pays my moneyYou are right LL, there is a bit of confusion re. the Commercial Membership fee.

The £150.00 is an annual fee (I am currently considering a lower fee for a shorter period of time, to allow for one off events etc...).
For the 150 pounds, you get the ability to advertise (start threads etc...) any event, you can add an advert in your signature (which is very useful if you are a regular poster) and crucially, you can add your events to the Forum Public Calendar with full details, and booking information. That means your event will appear on the front page of the forum and get much more exposure...
The full list of advantages is available from the subscriptions page in your User Control Panel (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/subscriptions.php?) but here it is again:
Commercial membership
This level of subscription is available to anyone who runs / promotes events or classes. The extra level of service allows you to start threads in the Social events area (to advertise specific events), to include advertising / events mention in signature and to post public events on the calendar. The Commercial membership level also includes all the benefits of Silver membership: - View the 'Who's online page' - Ability to be invisible on the Forum - Ability to edit / delete own posts - Ability to upload larger attachments - Upload a custom avatar - 2000 Private messages limit - Private Message tracking - Ability to choose a different Forum style (colour)

I can appreciate that the price might seem to high for some promoters, but I had hoped to make it fair for everyone. As discussed, for someone who runs a weekly class, all that would be needed to recoup the investment (and good kharma) would be a couple of new people turning up per month. This is not the only benefit of course as most of the regular contributors are great dancers who by their very presence would improve your night.

Just to add a few numbers and statistics to the equation, while we have close to 1000 members, most of them don't read or contribute to the forum any longer. We do however get around 150 individual members visiting every day, and that is excluding all the guests (ie unregistered visitors) who visit and read the threads. All of them are targetted customers who love to dance and want to try discover new venues. While of course most of them might not be in your area, you would be surprised at the distances people will travel...

I believe it offers good value and would pay (and indeed already pay) much more than that, but maybe I'm slightly more ambitious than most dance classes promoters :nice:

[Franck]

this is not a attack on anybody
just a question as this forum is now chargable for commercial purposes if an organisation wishes to advertise events e.t.c
are the charges tax deductable
for that organisation
and can receipts be obtained for the chargesHi Paulyboy.

The fee for commercial membership is the same as any business expense and would be claimable against your income tax.
I believe that once you've completed the transaction through the online Paypal system, you get an email receipt for your money which you can use in your accounts.
Should you need more I would be happy to provide a paper receipt.

Anyone who would like to apply for the Commercial membership without using the online Paypal system can email me and I'll send them an invoice.

[paulyboy]

Thanks that answers mine and a probably a few others questions

[Lounge Lizard]

This is how I see it.

1. Franck put up a forum for his customers to chat.
2. Hundreds of other chatty dancers joined increasing the usage of Francks website.
3. This meant that Franck's Internet Service Provider started chaging Franck for this extra usage.
4. Franck has attempted to recover some of his costs by asking his users to chip in - some of us have willingly done so.
5. Some people benefit from advertising on here so Franck has asked them to pay if they advertise - after all why should Franck pay for someone else's advertising?
6. The non-commercial members of the forum still chat about where they're going, where they've been, etc (as we are about our outing to Ashtons tomorrow).
7. But, people posting for commercial gain are spotted and have their posts removed. They didn't like it :tears:
8. People bleated on about freedom of speech: of course they've still got that. But you wouldn't expect to get free advertising or even say anything you want on the local radio station so why expect it here? :confused:
9. At the end of the day this is Francks playground, he can make up the rules, he can change the rules and he can decide how he interprets them too. But I think Franck is very fair and he's just asking people who gain from promoting their product on here to chip in. And, it seems to me that Franck is open to suggestions on price based on how much the advertiser might stand to gain from his promotion. All hail Franck :worthy:

So, in conclusion, I don't think the commercial posters being asked to pay has spoilt the forum - if it was spoilt people wouldn't want to advertise here so it's an odd question to ask. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. And, if you don't like it you can always start your own Forum: I suggest that's what the whiny people should do and leave us to our inane chatter and debate about dance :mad:Andy I am not taking away from Franck changing the forum I am asking if there is a distinction between me starting a post asking if anyone is going to my dance this Saturday at 'Toytown' or one of my regulars going online to say 'I am going to peters dance this Saturday witch sounds great who else is going?'
will both posts be moderated...if so then one of the main talking point in a dance discussion group ie the venue and whats on is removed to all but those that can afford to pay for it?
In the future will I have to pay to say I DJ at Dorking? it is not my venue I am an employee of the organiser.
does Adam have to pay to mention his video (if he was charged for each mention would that pay for the fourm costs anyway)

If I pay £150 can I just put up loads of postings saying I am going to be here, my dance is on, my next class is at... etc. etc. if so this could fill the forum with advertising spam
I have stopped putting my flyers out at certain venues cos there are just soooo many that it takes ages for interested dancers to filter the good ones out so they are ignored.
could paid advertising by organisers on the forum have the same effect.

Mikey has raised a good point, there is often a trend on this forum to be 'nice' about anything... eg
instead of putting a venue is not empty....we say...it has loads of dance space
the music was not bad...we say...it was challenging
the class was immpossible and boring...we say.... I had never seen moves like that before
Mikey came on and asked a direct question whether for commercial or other reasons it was and is a reasonable direct question

Mikey went straight to the point and I would rather read this thread than a hollow tree cos it is relevant to my interest in dance

Franck could you clarify (a bit more) what we get for £150 and its possible effect on the forum
where it can appear on the forum,
is there a limit to the number of advertisers
extent of advertising 'mid thread' that you would allow each advertiser
The forum is also hard to keep up with, miss a week and the number of threads and postings means we need a day to catch up wit the forum news - will there be an area for whats on now and in the future for exclusive use by the advertisers, not one that can be hijacked by Andy hiding Pammys fish in Boomers gorila suit whilst Minnie M hides behind a Gadjet
peter

[Sheepman]

Standard posting from a non London forum member 'I am coming to London should I go to Hipsters'
. . .
(Hipsters) has never been directly promoted on this forum by any of the organisers.
This is an example of the most powerful form of advertising - "word of mouth."
So there is the problem, because surely the forum is all about word of mouth. The ex-London forum went down the route of adding Hipsters to its list of censored words, I wonder who was worst affected by that?

I wonder why it is that the 'sters are so voluble on here. Is it a matter of the very keen dancers having a mutual outlet both for the dancing and the chatting? Perhaps it is because we are more friendly at Ealing than other southern venues? :devil:

On the face of it, it doesn't make sense to have a part of your business that effectively promotes your competitors, though there is that difficult to quantify asset - goodwill. I can't imagine that Franck sees any weekly classes in the south as competition, and vice versa (but I wonder where the bordeline is.) On the plus side, whenever we do go travelling, we are more likely to make the effort to visit the venues that get mentions in these pages. (Looking forward to our Spetember tour!)

Maybe one way the "Who's going to . . ." threads could be managed is with a time limit before the event, eg for a weekender (which are normally booked months in advance) such threads could be allowed within a month of the event, for more regular events perhaps a maximum of a week. This then gives you the chance, if you are wavering over an event to go to, you find out "so & so" will be there to help you make up your mind. Something I'm sure we all do by phone/email/chatting at events, and the time factor would mean it can't really be considered as advertising.

This leaves a question over the "I have 2 places free at "xxxx" weekender" threads, because this is clearly advertising of a type, but I'm sure it is not what Franck classes as commercial.

If the commercial subscription is not succesful in raising more funds, I know I would be happy to have an increased private subscription to offset Francks deficit. (Sorry Franck, I can't cover all of it!!) Perhaps different levels of subscription would work, though there has to be some way of still attracting new members, maybe free mebership for 6 months? I think it is also pertinent that we have an idea about the running costs, rather than thinking that Franck is "minting it", certainly I had no idea until recently what sort of costs are involved.

Greg

[Franck]

I am asking if there is a distinction between me starting a post asking if anyone is going to my dance this Saturday at 'Toytown' or one of my regulars going online to say 'I am going to peters dance this Saturday witch sounds great who else is going?'
will both posts be moderated...if so then one of the main talking point in a dance discussion group ie the venue and whats on is removed to all but those that can afford to pay for it?Both posts will be moderated, and the criteria for allowing one of the other will be based on whether the thread is serving the needs of dancers / forum members or there to advertise an event and serve the needs of the dance organizer.
The line won't always be clearcut, but the decision will be at the discretion of myself and other moderators.

If I pay £150 can I just put up loads of postings saying I am going to be here, my dance is on, my next class is at... etc. etc. if so this could fill the forum with advertising spamNo, this wouldn't be allowed either. Spamming will still not be tolerated, and no more than one (on rare occasions 2) threads should be started on any specific event. Hi-jacking other threads to mention your events would also be disallowed.

Franck could you clarify what we get for £150 and where it can appear on the forum, is there a limit to the number of advertisers and extent of advertising 'mid thread' that you would allow each oneI have explained the benefits earlier in the thread. There is currently no limit on the number of advertisers (though they're not really beating a path to my doorstep).
All policies are currently very flexible until such time as a happy medium is found.

[Mikey]

Andy I am not taking away from Franck changing the forum I am asking if there is a distinction between me starting a post asking if anyone is going to my dance this Saturday at 'Toytown' or one of my regulars going online to say 'I am going to peters dance this Saturday witch sounds great who else is going?'

If I pay £150 can I just put up loads of postings saying I am going to be here, my dance is on, my next class is at... etc. etc. if so this could fill the forum with advertising spam

exclusive use by the advertisers, not one that can be hijacked by Andy hiding Pammys fish in Boomers gorila suit whilst Minnie M hides behind a Gadjet
peter

I have a direct point to show here.. and before anyone says it as I am sure they will.. This is not a personal attack of any kind, purely an excellent example..ok....

Why should I as an organisor pay £150 a year to advertise any event whilst a non organisor can post an event they happen to be going to or question who is going ? But happen to include the venue name, address, date, costs and contact details.....

Any unethical promoter could simply ask a friend to do this for them, rather than pay any subscription costs.. which is a point LL mentioned..


How much did this cost ? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3302)

Sorry but as pointed out.. it's flawed and in my eyes unfair...

[Pammy]

Sorry but as pointed out.. it's flawed and in my eyes unfair...

Why unfair? Nobody went, as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong). This was simply an attempt at trying to find something we (as a forum group) could do together, and NOT an attempt at promoting or advertising an event for a friend, either on the sly or directly.

If I had been doing that, I'd have expected to achieve some sort of turn out/gain hence would happily have paid for the commercial subscription.

The thing I get tired of on this forum is how some people only seem to post negatively. There are hundreds of interesting and entertaining threads. Why is it that you find the same few people arguing and moaning on one subject only rather than contributing globally to whole forum.

Incidentally, when I mentioned in a previous post on this thread that I felt the "down turn" on the forum due to negative posts, this is exactly what I was referring to.

I for one will not be posting on this thread anymore as it's starting to wind me up. It just seems to be going in circles from what I can see.....

[Mikey]

[COLOR=Red]This is for those who think i started this for personal gain.... Acopy of the negative feedback I have been receiving.... NOTE... none added thier name by the way..... It takes guts to put your name to your words i suppose....



£150 ? Has commercial c... 22nd-July-2004 09:46 AM Not constructive, just critical.

£150 ? Has commercial c... 22nd-July-2004 01:30 AM Nobody wants to be linked from your website. it would make them look bad! bad smell you see

£150 ? Has commercial c... 22nd-July-2004 01:29 AM you are a prat! anything goes as long as you're right. Grow up
£150 ? Has commercial c... 22nd-July-2004 01:27 AM clutching at straws now

£150 ? Has commercial c... 21st-July-2004 09:59 PM This post is criticising Franck and is provocative. You create conflict on the forum and people don't like it. Go away and don't come back.


£150 ? Has commercial c... 21st-July-2004 09:43 AM Please stop doing this. Several people left last time you started this sort of arguement on the forum. You do far more damage than any commercial charge that Franck makes.

This is for those who might think starting this thread was an easy desicion to make.. it' wasn't and this is the reason why.... :mad:

[Andy McGregor]

I for one will not be posting on this thread anymore as it's starting to wind me up. It just seems to be going in circles from what I can see.....

:yeah:

See you in the hollow tree.

Entry = one cucumber!

[Minnie M]

........../big snip/........ whilst Minnie M hides behind a Gadjet

:confused: Have I missed something here :confused:

[Dance Demon]

Andy I am not taking away from Franck changing the forum I am asking if there is a distinction between me starting a post asking if anyone is going to my dance this Saturday at 'Toytown' or one of my regulars going online to say 'I am going to peters dance this Saturday witch sounds great who else is going?'
will both posts be moderated...if so then one of the main talking point in a dance discussion group ie the venue and whats on is removed to all but those that can afford to pay for it?
In the future will I have to pay to say I DJ at Dorking? it is not my venue I am an employee of the organiser.
does Adam have to pay to mention his video (if he was charged for each mention would that pay for the fourm costs anyway)

If I pay £150 can I just put up loads of postings saying I am going to be here, my dance is on, my next class is at... etc. etc. if so this could fill the forum with advertising spam
I have stopped putting my flyers out at certain venues cos there are just soooo many that it takes ages for interested dancers to filter the good ones out so they are ignored.
could paid advertising by organisers on the forum have the same effect.

Mikey has raised a good point, there is often a trend on this forum to be 'nice' about anything... eg
instead of putting a venue is not empty....we say...it has loads of dance space
the music was not bad...we say...it was challenging
the class was immpossible and boring...we say.... I had never seen moves like that before
Mikey came on and asked a direct question whether for commercial or other reasons it was and is a reasonable direct question

Mikey went straight to the point and I would rather read this thread than a hollow tree cos it is relevant to my interest in dance

Franck could you clarify (a bit more) what we get for £150 and its possible effect on the forum
where it can appear on the forum,
is there a limit to the number of advertisers
extent of advertising 'mid thread' that you would allow each advertiser
The forum is also hard to keep up with, miss a week and the number of threads and postings means we need a day to catch up wit the forum news - will there be an area for whats on now and in the future for exclusive use by the advertisers, not one that can be hijacked by Andy hiding Pammys fish in Boomers gorila suit whilst Minnie M hides behind a Gadjet
peter

Excellent post Peter. A lot of relevent points well put.... :)

[Emma]

This is for those who think i started this for personal gain.... Acopy of the negative feedback I have been receiving.... NOTE... none added thier name by the way..... It takes guts to put your name to your words i suppose....

£150 ? Has commercial c... 22nd-July-2004 09:46 AM Not constructive, just critical.

£150 ? Has commercial c... 22nd-July-2004 01:30 AM Nobody wants to be linked from your website. it would make them look bad! bad smell you see

£150 ? Has commercial c... 22nd-July-2004 01:29 AM you are a prat! anything goes as long as you're right. Grow up
£150 ? Has commercial c... 22nd-July-2004 01:27 AM clutching at straws now

£150 ? Has commercial c... 21st-July-2004 09:59 PM This post is criticising Franck and is provocative. You create conflict on the forum and people don't like it. Go away and don't come back.


£150 ? Has commercial c... 21st-July-2004 09:43 AM Please stop doing this. Several people left last time you started this sort of arguement on the forum. You do far more damage than any commercial charge that Franck makes.

This is for those who might think starting this thread was an easy desicion to make.. it' wasn't and this is the reason why.... :mad:God help me for posting this but how *exactly* does the fact that you have got negative rep for posting prove you didn't do it for personal gain??! Honestly Iam not saying you DID but really the fact that several people disagree with you really does not prove that you didn't!

[DangerousCurves]

Well, I think the point Mikey is making is that he knew that being the person to start this thread, he would attract a bit of flack. Many people have posted - some have said they think the changes were good, some have suggested modifications to the changes, some have agreed with Mikey's points, some have taken the discussion into areas that he hadn't thought of.

At the end of the day we may well end up with new ideas for revenue streams for the forum (eg regional commercial memberships, or one-off posting fees) which is great; we may end up with more targetted advertising threads (which means that people who don't want to read ads can easily avoid them) which is great; we may end up with small organisations or charities being able to promote their events which is great; and we may end up with more regional news/ads for people who want to know what's on in their area - also great. I can't remember another thread with so many potentially positive outcomes for a long time.

But for daring to start the debate... Mikey has had a pile of sh*t on his head! Some of the comments he has quoted are not just "disagreement" - which is fair enough - but abusive and mean-spirited. "You Smell" is hardly adult debate. Anonymous messages of this kind just mark out their sender as an ill mannered coward.

There have been some postings suggesting that Mikey started the thread to raise his own commercial profile, rather than to debate the issues. I think what he's showing is that he suspected from the outset - and was right in suspecting - that this was not going to be something that would win him any popularity contests. He knew instead that raising his voice could actually damage his commercial profile. It's not really true that all publicity is good publicity, as some of those nasty messages prove. If people dislike you - they are not that likely to frequent your venues!

He started it because he felt it was right to raise the issues - and as stated above, starting the thread could have some very positive outcomes for us all. I think praise should also go to Franck, who has mediated the (often very heated) thread very fairly, and has shown his own fine character in his patient explanations and his stated willingness to listen to suggestions put forward. His commitment to the forum, and balancing the interests of its very diverse members is clear and uncontestable.

And one final thought - whether you agree with him or not - Mikey always puts his name to what he writes....

[Emma]

And one final thought - whether you agree with him or not - Mikey always puts his name to what he writes....As do I DC, which is why I foolishly posted publically and risked raising the heat of an already over-personalised debate, rather than negative repping Mikey. :)

[DangerousCurves]

As do I DC, which is why I foolishly posted publically and risked raising the heat of an already over-personalised debate, rather than negative repping Mikey. :)

Honest debate is always a good thing! I'm waiting to see if I get bad rep for my posting... but like you I prefer to say what I think and put my name to it! Share my last rolo with you anytime :hug:

[Lounge Lizard]

I have made two postings basicly supporting Mikey (got both positive and negative rep for them :what: )
As a teacher-organiser-DJ I could benefit from advertising, I have three DVD's to sell I play music at events throughout the country and would like to be more involved in workshops nationwide.
So I am very keen to advertise, it is just the current offer is not clear in a number of areas as it is still in its early days.
Advertising as a freelance on a Ceroc forum where Ceroc (pretty much) does not use freelance is uneasy ground.

When i check the forum I click on new posts, I skip anything with big brother hollow tree, smoking, or northen events (nothing personal guys), first posts I read will be music related etc. etc
I never read what else is on offer on the forum, I guess many others are simmilar

So I found out about the commercial option via Mikeys thread, Franck was given new ideas and food for thought cos of Mikeys postings and subsequent replies, I find Mikeys direct approach no more annoying than Pammy's fluffy ways (would be great to see them swap over - Pammy posts like Mikey, Mikey like Pammy).

Why critisise the guy for asking a direct question?
Even if Mikey did use the thread for his own personal agenda, no problems with me, we have all done that from time to time, if an interesting and open discussion resulted (as has been the case) then well done that man and have some rep
LL

[bigdjiver]

The newspapers have been wrestling with these sorts of problems for hundreds of years, and they still have no consistent solution. The local drama group puts on a show - is that news that you pay a reporter to put in the paper? Or do you allow the organiser to put in a puffed up promo for free? Or do you charge them for advertising it?

Is the paper paid for by its readers, or by the advertisers? or a mixture?

We get seemingly ridiculous anomolies. The "Local" paper may charge for the local drama group to advertise its production of "Grease", but it pays money to the broadcasters for the privilege of carrying the TV programs that tell us "Grease" is on national TV.

I cannot define what is fair or commercially correct, and even if there was someone that could I doubt that the rest of us would recognise it. I have settled for the simplistic attitude - It is Francks forum - whatever rules he cares to impose are OK by me. Long live King Franck.

[Gus]

This is for those who might think starting this thread was an easy desicion to make.. it' wasn't and this is the reason why.... :mad:

I think its unfortunate that you recieved all that negative rep. Although I vehemently disagree with your point of view I think its a legitimate point of view to raise .. and people should be able to express an opinion withour resorting to negative rep (a new version of flaming? :sad: ).

I think there have been some going points raise (esp by LL) and some very good responses (esp by Franck). I think, like a number of other debates what is right comes down to what you as an individual believe.

I say all the above from the perspective that I'm not always Mikey's greatest fan :sick: ... and I think that you do your self an injustice sometimes .... but I dont think you deserve some of the abuse you've received for this thread. Full marks for raising the issue in the first point .. and the same to Franck for allowing the debate to run without censor. :grin: I would dearly like to say some things about a venture I'm involved in for a number of reasons but am aware that any mention of it could consitiute 'advertising' ... which is a little sad ... but I do understand Francks position.

[Franck]

I think its unfortunate that you recieved all that negative rep. Although I vehemently disagree with your point of view I think its a legitimate point of view to raise .. and people should be able to express an opinion withour resorting to negative rep (a new version of flaming? :sad: ).An interesting debate, which doesn't belong in this thread at all...
There have been many recent incidences of posters complaining about negative reputation publically, either because they feel hard-done by, misunderstood or simply in the hope (generally correct) that they will get sympathy positive reputation.
I took a look at the negative rep that Mikey posted and most of it, wasn't for raising the issue of commercial membership but for either having a go at individuals (sometimes in self-defence), promoting his website via this thread or for other attacks on Ceroc etc... Not for making the original point, and this is crucial.

To get back on topic, I have seen many useful contributions to this thread, and I have already admitted that the 'Commercial membership' hadn't been implemented properly. There are many gaps in concept (as Mikey, Sheepman and Gus have pointed out) and this is why I hadn't promoted it much.
Amongst the few people who have had posts deleted, a couple have emailed me to offer support (despite losing the facility to advertise). A couple have repeatedly hi-jacked threads and used friends to 'help' advertise their events, which saddened me :sad:
Mikey started this thread, and while it was earlier than I had planned, I was glad to get the opportunity to discuss the issues at stake, and only one organization so far have offered to take up Commercial membership (Jive Addiction)...

From where I'm sitting, the outcome is not hugely positive, and certainly doesn't solve the initial issue: how to raise funds from those who benefit the most from the Forum?

My conclusions so far, having read all the above several times, are:

1 - Currently, the Forum doesn't have a large enough membership to justify £150.00 for local advertising, but it does for national events.

2 - Policing and moderating adverts is very difficult (and prone to mis-judgements) as well as time consuming. The ideal solution would be for all (most) dance events / classes organisers to subscribe to the Commercial membership. This will only happen if the cost is significantly reduced from the current £150.00 for local / small independents.

3 - The Forum is a public service / resource and it would be a shame if dancers with no ties / financial interest in the events they mention couldn't post questions about events. This will lead to potential abuse, but in my opinion is still worth allowing, relying on the integrity of all promoters.

These are my current thoughts and I would be happy to receive more feedback on how to develop the system. :nice:

[Lou]

There have been many recent incidences of posters complaining about negative reputation publically, either because they feel hard-done by, misunderstood or simply in the hope (generally correct) that they will get sympathy positive reputation.
Or, to add to your list, because they can't see the point of neg rep with no comments as it fails to add to the discussion. (Much better to debate on the thread itself). I certainly didn't post in order to get sympathy. :tears: Although I did feel the teensiest bit hard-done by! :whistle: :wink:

[Tiggerbabe]

Although I did feel the teensiest bit hard-done by! :whistle: :wink:
And, if I remember rightly, you hadn't got neg rep at all :blush: :hug:

[Lou]

Yup! :blush: :rofl: Oooops! Some days I'm not all that bright.....

[Lounge Lizard]

My conclusions so far, having read all the above several times, are:

1 - Currently, the Forum doesn't have a large enough membership to justify £150.00 for local advertising, but it does for national events.

2 - Policing and moderating adverts is very difficult (and prone to mis-judgements) as well as time consuming. The ideal solution would be for all (most) dance events / classes organisers to subscribe to the Commercial membership. This will only happen if the cost is significantly reduced from the current £150.00 for local / small independents.

3 - The Forum is a public service / resource and it would be a shame if dancers with no ties / financial interest in the events they mention couldn't post questions about events. This will lead to potential abuse, but in my opinion is still worth allowing, relying on the integrity of all promoters.

These are my current thoughts and I would be happy to receive more feedback on how to develop the system. :nice:
Hi Franck, when I advertise in a local paper I dont want my advert to be lost in the main body of the paper, but located in a 'what's on' page.
I refered to this in my previous posting.

Could you make a seperate "What's On" catagory, Threads can only be started by paid up members but all can contribute to postings
As a moderator you would include any key event (whether paid for or not) to keep public interest high.
To make it work the relevant threads in social events would need to be moderated

I would like to advertise my DVD's and availability for workshops 24/7 and any event I am DJ'ing at plus my own dances/classes on a regular week by week basis.

If this was the case I would pay the £150 now, but my main stumbling block (where does that phrase come from?) is any advertising being lost amongst the other postings - Even a special thread amongst Social events would be lost if other postings pushed it down the Line.

To clarify is it possible to add another heading (like DJ booth) titled "What's on" that is a permanent feature for commercioal advertisers to use?

I realise this has potential issues - if Jive addiction pay £150, and I then promote other weekenders (who do not subscribe to the £150 membership) cos I am appraring there that is unfair and wrong,

Also it would be wrong to prevent discussion on a major event cos the organiser is not a member
Peter

[bigdjiver]

Learn from the newspapers, a Classified ads section?

with the ability to set "display until" dates? and a search unread facility?

[Dance Demon]

I think that it's a shame that this thread has deteriorated into a public slagging match. Mikeys original posting was a valid posting asking a pertinant question. The forum has gone through a number of changes recently, and whenever you come accross change, there are usually teething problems, as there have been with the Forum. However the teething problems have mostly been sorted out over a period of time , using comments, feedback, and suggestions made by Forum members. I think that Mikeys original post was reasonable and well put, and has encouraged some people to come up with good suggestions as to how we can best sort out the commercial membership scheme fairly. Franck to his eternal credit, has allowed everyone to comment, and has taken everything on board and will almost certainly come up with a solution after looking at all of the suggestions that have been made. With regard to people hijacking posts to advertise their events, I will admit to being a guilty party on a couple of occasions. It has mostly been done tongue in cheek, but I understand where Franck is coming from, and I won't do it again. Please accept my humble apology fFranck :blush: :blush:
I don't consider Mikeys original post to be inflamatory, however soon after his original posting, the thread turned into a personal attack with all sorts of accusations being thrown around. Had it kept to discussing the points raised, we hopefully could have had a reasonable debate.
I don't always agree with Mikeys point of view, or his method of expressing it, however on this occasion the unpleasantness was not started by him. Hopefully this thread can return to debating the matters in a controlled fashion, and any personal attacks can be posted in the outside section...where they belong. :)

[Lynn]

Been looking at this thread with interest. A lot of advertising is word of mouth (we are organising a workshop here in Belfast and almost every booking has come that way). The forum is a place where people chat and so events will be spread by 'word of mouth' which here equals posts (Southport is an example - someone - with no direct involvement with JiveAddiction at all - suggested to me in a thread about weekenders that it would be an easy location to travel to from NI and I passed the word on here in Belfast...) But that makes the 'advertising/word of mouth' a harder line to draw - sometimes it is an 'advertisement' by someone who only uses the forum to advertise and doesn't join in any other discussions - and sometimes it is a regular forum member saying 'hey guys, this is where I am teaching/DJing next month, should be a good night, come along'. The former should clearly pay to advertise, and the latter should maybe pay something, but I'm not convinced both should be treated the same.

I'm glad there has been debate on this subject as this is our forum, and its great that there can be this open discussion. Franck has costs and needs to work out a fair way for all, as I am sure he will!

[Franck]

With regard to people hijacking posts to advertise their events, I will admit to being a guilty party on a couple of occasions. It has mostly been done tongue in cheek, but I understand where Franck is coming from, and I won't do it again. Please accept my humble apology fFranck :blush: :blush: Thanks DD I appreciate your apology, and I do realise that you were doing it in a 'tongue in cheek' way which is why I didn't remove any of the posts.
I think that once the system is improved and worked out, the moderation will have to be stricter.

As Lynn says, the most effective means of advertising is word of mouth, but sometimes for word of mouth to start, you need the event to be advertised in the first place!
This Forum is the ultimate word of mouth loudspeaker... Which is why I think that every commercial organisation which benefits from the Forum should apply for Commercial membership, but there is no way for me to enforce it in practise, and as long as there are enough Hipsters supporters (for example) who out of loyalty or a sense of positive re-inforcement (ie I chose Hipsters therefore Hipsters is the best) then Hipsters will get lots of free publicity, and unless organizers decide to buy commercial membership (and why should they? they get everything for free) then there is nothing I can do about it... :wink:

[stewart38]

(given that most of the forumites are from the North and Scotland)
Do we have any figures on this ? what % on here are north of watford

What % are scotish on the ceroc Scotand forum,probably dealt with on another thread ?

I wouldnt have gone to Southport had it not been for this forum

And wont be going to Barcelona as a result of this forum (I understand nos way down)
So it must have a commercial impact

stewart

[Graham W]

I PM'd someone yesterday saying that I think things are ripe for change - in a sim way that music was before punk, happened - this charge is one example of it, G

[Gadget]

things?

[Andy McGregor]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.


For Franck - plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

[Dan Hudson]

OK, I have just finished reading this entire thread and to be honest it became quite tiresome!

For me.. as a commercial member I have benefited greatly from advertising my events on this forum.

My regular nights are there for all to be seen on the calender.

And my large party night this week.. at £10.00 a head attracted no fewer than 10 forum readers from London and the south and even one from Dundee!!

I offered a £2.00 discount for forum readers, but that still made me £80.00 I wouldn't have... Doesn't take long to recoup...

LL.. just keep posting on your own social events thread to keep it at the top!! :cheers:

I agree with Pammy, Andy, Sheena et al that the forum is only here coz of FP's hard work and dedication... not to mention the large costs he has.... .I am more than happy to contribute...
:cheers:
Thats what I do!!

[Lou]

I think things are ripe for change - in a sim way that music was before punk, happened - this charge is one example of it, G

Oh, to put it more simply:

But the money's no good
Just get a grip on yourself

:D ;)

[Zuhal]

OK, I have just finished reading this entire thread and to be honest it became quite tiresome!

For me.. as a commercial member I have benefited greatly from advertising my events on this forum.

My regular nights are there for all to be seen on the calender.

And my large party night this week.. at £10.00 a head attracted no fewer than 10 forum readers from London and the south and even one from Dundee!!

I offered a £2.00 discount for forum readers, but that still made me £80.00 I wouldn't have... Doesn't take long to recoup...

!!

Yep. Dan is absolutely right. I would never have looked at his website to travel from SW19.
However I saw it here on the forum, tickled my interest and off I went. A printout from the forum also got me a discount :clap:

Zuhal

P.S. I see that I have reached the magic 30 so I can dish out ANONYMOUS rep :devil:

[Franck]

Franck to his eternal credit, has allowed everyone to comment, and has taken everything on board and will almost certainly come up with a solution after looking at all of the suggestions that have been made. Well, I have looked at all the posts and suggestions on this thread and decided to change the scale of charges for Commercial membership.
As of today, there are 2 levels you can apply for:

Big fish: for large organisations who run more than one weekly/monthly class or organize large national events, and
Small fish: for the smaller, independent operators running one class or localized parties.
There is also a quarterly option for the 'Small Fish' who can't afford the one-off £75.00 annual fee...

I am looking into adding different areas for advertisers and other options at the suggestion of Lounge Lizard, but this will take a bit more setting up, so will have to wait :nice:

[johnah]

Well, I have looked at all the posts and suggestions on this thread and decided to change the scale of charges for Commercial membership.
As of today, there are 2 levels you can apply for:

Big fish: for large organisations who run more than one weekly/monthly class or organize large national events, and
Small fish: for the smaller, independent operators running one class or localized parties.
There is also a quarterly option for the 'Small Fish' who can't afford the one-off £75.00 annual fee...

I am looking into adding different areas for advertisers and other options at the suggestion of Lounge Lizard, but this will take a bit more setting up, so will have to wait :nice:

Hey Franck, don't think Wes & I have ever thought of ourselves as BIG Fish, but that doesn't change our willingness to support you.

Also think you are approaching the more localised organisers in the right vein.

:cheers:

www.jiveaddiction.com

[Gus]

I am looking into adding different areas for advertisers and other options at the suggestion of Lounge Lizard, but this will take a bit more setting up, so will have to wait :nice:

Nice One :grin: Its good to see that Ceroc Scotland once more is listening to what the public want. Wonder if Mikey is happy now?:wink:

[Dance Demon]

Nice One :grin: Its good to see that Ceroc Scotland once more is listening to what the public want. Wonder if Mikey is happy now?:wink:

Should think that Mikey and all the other venue organisers wiil be very happy at the outcome Gus. It would seem from the number of posts that this thread has attracted ( forgetting all the unpleasant stuff )that a lot of people had thoughts about this subject. It took Mikey to start the thread, and get everyone discussing possible solutions, for it all to get sorted out. So the way I see things is that
1. Mikey Started the thread
2. SOME people put forward reasonable suggestions
3. Franck listened to the suggestions and came up with solutions
4. Organisers of events have benefitted
5. The thread has fulfilled its purpose.

In between time things got nasty and heated. but all in all, forgetting personal feelings and politics, a satisfactory result has been achieved. Lets all get on with discussing things rationally now

:cheers:

[Minnie M]

I am looking into adding different areas for advertisers and other options at the suggestion of Lounge Lizard, but this will take a bit more setting up, so will have to wait :nice:

Wot a man :worthy:

[Gordon J Pownall]

Hey Franck, don't think Wes & I have ever thought of ourselves as BIG Fish, but that doesn't change our willingness to support you.

Also think you are approaching the more localised organisers in the right vein.

:cheers:

www.jiveaddiction.com
Johnah - wasn't that the name of a whale :confused: .....and yes...
a whale is a mammal - I know..... :whistle:
(looks like a bloody big fish tho'.....) :rofl: :rofl:

[Gordon J Pownall]

Well, I have looked at all the posts and suggestions on this thread and decided to change the scale of charges for Commercial membership.
As of today, there are 2 levels you can apply for:

Big fish: for large organisations who run more than one weekly/monthly class or organize large national events, and
Small fish: for the smaller, independent operators running one class or localized parties.
There is also a quarterly option for the 'Small Fish' who can't afford the one-off £75.00 annual fee...

I am looking into adding different areas for advertisers and other options at the suggestion of Lounge Lizard, but this will take a bit more setting up, so will have to wait :nice:

Who's the daddy - Who's the daddy...



FRANCK'S THE DADDY

[DangerousCurves]

:yeah:

[CJ]

Lets all get on with discussing things rationally now

:cheers:

Get stuffed, smelly!! :D

[under par]

Should think that Mikey and all the other venue organisers wiil be very happy at the outcome Gus. It would seem from the number of posts that this thread has attracted ( forgetting all the unpleasant stuff )that a lot of people had thoughts about this subject. It took Mikey to start the thread, and get everyone discussing possible solutions, for it all to get sorted out. So the way I see things is that
1. Mikey Started the thread
2. SOME people put forward reasonable suggestions
3. Franck listened to the suggestions and came up with solutions
4. Organisers of events have benefitted
5. The thread has fulfilled its purpose.

In between time things got nasty and heated. but all in all, forgetting personal feelings and politics, a satisfactory result has been achieved. Lets all get on with discussing things rationally now

:cheers:

Hear hear!!!

Well done to Mikey and Franck.

As for discussing things rationally now....I'm with CJ....get stuffed smelly! :hug:

[Dance Demon]

Get stuffed, smelly!! :D

SMELLY!!! SMELLY!!!!!.........I'll haveyou know I have a shower every August.........whether I need it or not!!!!!!.............
:D

[Dreadful Scathe]

get lost smelly

he's ugly too :)

[under par]

he's ugly too :)


Ugly! Ugly! been chasin parked cars for years. :wink: :whistle:

[Gordon J Pownall]

Ugly! Ugly! been chasin parked cars for years. :wink: :whistle:

Now then boys - play nice - just because someone set fire to his head with napalm and then put it out with a coal shovel - no need to mock the afflicted...! :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :wink:

[Dance Demon]

OI YOU LOT!!!!!!!!.........what've I done.... :tears: :tears: :tears:

[Tiggerbabe]

OI YOU LOT!!!!!!!!.........what've I done.... :tears: :tears: :tears:
Aw! Don't worry about the boys DD :wink: the girls still love you :hug: :hug: :kiss:

[Dance Demon]

Aw! Don't worry about the boys DD :wink: the girls still love you :hug: :hug: :kiss:



:D :D :D :D :D ............ :na:

[Martin]

Aw! Don't worry about the boys DD :wink: the girls still love you :hug: :hug: :kiss:


What!!! :eek: That smelly one with the coal shovel face? :tears: :tears:

[Martin]

Just read this WHOLE thread (sorry DD, had to do it)

Firstly I was quick to pay my 10 pounds (dunno what the 15 is) - even though it meant sorting out English pounds all the way from Aussie.

Through the Forum, I met Linda in Sydney :grin: , got to visit Scotland (which I would not have done had it not been for the forum - would not have thought of it). Got to stay with Linda, in sunny? where-ever, got to demo with the incredible Lisa. Such fun, thanks guys.
I also found out about Southport here and so extended my stay + encoraged several to attend- so that 150 is sure worth it guys.

I think LL's idea of a promoters area is cool - I would read it.

I do think promoters should pay more, how much more, well that one maybe the debate...

My memory fades on dates, but Mikey, "in 14 years of teaching etc", I'm not sure Modern Jive was in Brighton 14 years ago?
Maybe the etc. kicks in here :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
(I'm often wrong so happy to be flamed)

Marty :cheers:

[bigdjiver]

...

My memory fades on dates, but Mikey, "in 14 years of teaching etc", I'm not sure Modern Jive was in Brighton 14 years ago?
Maybe the etc. kicks in here :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
(I'm often wrong so happy to be flamed)

Marty :cheers: Sorry, no flame icons available, but I I have heard from a usually reliable source that Mikey was teaching in the Ceroc Central area way back.

[Martin]

Sorry, no flame icons available, but I I have heard from a usually reliable source that Mikey was teaching in the Ceroc Central area way back.

Sorry, bigdjiver - that was a little personal aside to Mikey.
Me being cheeky. :D
Thanks for considering a flaming though :cheers:

[bigdjiver]

Sorry, bigdjiver - that was a little personal aside to Mikey.
Me being cheeky. :D
Thanks for considering a flaming though :cheers:No probs, I believe he is no longer on the form to defend himself.

[Lynn]

I also found out about Southport here and ... encoraged several to attend :yeah: same here - ended up 8 from NI last time and again this time. Though it wasn't from an 'advertising' thread or post - just another forumite pointing out that it would be an easy journey from NI (I didn't know where Southport was :blush: ) when I was lamenting the fact that I wasn't going to one of the other weekenders.

[Gus]

Sorry, no flame icons available, but I I have heard from a usually reliable source that Mikey was teaching in the Ceroc Central area way back.

Sorry ... source is mistaken .... I was in Central Area at the time ....

[bigdjiver]

Sorry ... source is mistaken .... I was in Central Area at the time ....More likely that I am mistaken, his name came up in a discussion of old time teachers. Do you know if he was a demo?

[Gus]

More likely that I am mistaken, his name came up in a discussion of old time teachers. Do you know if he was a demo?


Have a vague recollection of him demoing with Michella .. but my ageing memory does play tricks occaisionaly. :blush: