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DianaS
15th-July-2004, 09:03 AM
Does any one one know where there is a list online with all the walk variations listed? or just a few even!

I seem to do so many and am pretty sure that there must be some pattern to them, but each variation seems to come as a complete surprise to me!

Cheers Di :cheers:

Gordon J Pownall
15th-July-2004, 09:13 AM
Does any one one know where there is a list online with all the walk variations listed? or just a few even!

I seem to do so many and am pretty sure that there must be some pattern to them, but each variation seems to come as a complete surprise to me!

Cheers Di :cheers:

What do you mean by walking - I'm assuming you don't mean ...as in The Ministry of....


If you're talking about footwork etc., then Jiveholic may have a few moves...most teachers, including moi, tend to 'make them up' as we go along...although there are a few notated moves with specific footwork...???

Andy McGregor
15th-July-2004, 09:26 AM
Does any one one know where there is a list online with all the walk variations listed? or just a few even!

I seem to do so many and am pretty sure that there must be some pattern to them, but each variation seems to come as a complete surprise to me!

Cheers Di :cheers:

If the leader is leading you properly you don't need to know each variation. By changing the angle of attack of the frame he/she can indicate which foot you're supposed to move, in which direction, in front of or behind the other, etc.

The trouble I find as a follower is that walks are not done often so there is a moment of surprise where you have to think "oh, he/she wants me to walk" or at least keep going in the same direction rather than coming back, and that might cause you to anticipate the walk you think it is - at least that's what happens with me :blush:

The other problem I find as a leader is that, especially for footwork, the frame needs to be nicely framed - many women collapse their arm, moving their hand towards their shoulder or they break the frame by letting their elbow go behind their back. Either movement will mean that the follower has moved just their hand rather than their whole body - this makes it difficult/impossible to control your partners feet :confused:

The answer is to relax and let your partner lead and trust them - something I tell myself all the time...

DianaS
15th-July-2004, 10:07 AM
The thing is I really love the walks (whats the proper name for them I wonder) some guys do them really well and I never really know how and others don't but I really wish they would! Women are the communicators of dance between men and men often learn from another man through the woman. So if there's something I really like, I find out how to do it from both sides then I show my guy friends and then they can do it too! Cool

I can do the colombian walk no problem (with head moves and a dip!)
and there's twisty log walks which I love and want to practice with my son but can't remember the lead for! It does feel really good though,

there's triple step walk forward walk backwards jobbies which I can do 'cas its just like falling into it...

There's what I call criss cross walks that go variations on this: sway twist back, (man and woman stepping back with right foot) twist forwards, cross (R over l), cross, cross, cross, big kick forwards with r, cross r over l, slide l back, slide r back, twist out, twist forward, cross r over l, cross l over r, cross r over l lean; lovely!

With the sway thingy above if the guy goes back on the right foot that gives me the jog that its likely to be the "cross walk." With the triple step I'm wondering will they go back on their left or right? Because we're told not to look at our feet I try and feel what leg they are going back on to give me the clue...

What I really want to suss is whether there are any conventions that I may twig on to..

but hey maybe there's not :tears:

Gadget
15th-July-2004, 11:13 AM
Personally, I look at the feet for the first few repetitions... erm... OK perhaps a bit longer than that :blush:
I know you shouldn't but what's better - synchronised footwork or looking at your partner?

DianaS
15th-July-2004, 11:22 AM
Personally, I look at the feet for the first few repetitions... erm... OK perhaps a bit longer than that :blush:
I know you shouldn't but what's better - synchronised footwork or looking at your partner?
Hi gadget,
Ive just had a look at your thread on your progress, it seems a better idea than these random threads that I keep starting on this weeks burning issue.

hi thanks for raising this perhaps I'm misunderstanding our teacher (its Andy at Wythall he's an excellent teacher so I do tend to listen to him). We are told REALLY CLEARLY not to look at our feet. Perhaps he means don't look at your feet while your walking rather than don't look at your feet ever! I'll check it out with him, next week, but what I've been trying to do is sense the foot movement by keeping my hip against theirs so I can feel what they are doing and mirror it.

D

Franck
15th-July-2004, 11:37 AM
Personally, I look at the feet for the first few repetitions... erm... OK perhaps a bit longer than that :blush:
I know you shouldn't but what's better - synchronised footwork or looking at your partner?The best is Synchronised footwork and looking at your partner.

As Andy has mentioned, the way the man leads the walk is the crux of the matter. The man should build a frame with his partner and use his hands, elbow, shoulders, thighs, hips, whatever part of the body is in contact to indicate to his partner the direction, distance, angle and speed of travel.
If your partner is looking at your feet, she will try to copy your footwork (and if you're looking at her feet, you might try to match hers) more often than not resulting in even more confusion.
I recommend to anyone who has difficulty doing the walk to actually close their eyes and feel the direction, feel the lead and become aware of where their feet are, rather than have to look at them.
The same applies to guys (though I wouldn't advocate closing their eyes), not only can I feel where my feet are and what they're doing, I am also aware of where my partner's feet are doing because I'm paying attention to her balance / momentum and have built a clear frame.

The above however will only work if you are leading footwork that your partner is 1 - aware of, and 2 - able to follow.
Some footworks / walks are easy enough for complete Beginners, but others really need to be learnt and practised.
So both men and ladies should try and do a footwork workshop, so they get to practise the different steps / walks until their body is able to do them without thinking. Once that is achieved, provided the lead is clear and the frame is in place, the footwork will happen naturally, and look amazing.

under par
15th-July-2004, 11:47 AM
The best is Synchronised footwork and looking at your partner.

As Andy has mentioned, the way the man leads the walk is the crux of the matter. The man should build a frame with his partner and use his hands, elbow, shoulders, thighs, hips, whatever part of the body is in contact to indicate to his partner the direction, distance, angle and speed of travel.
If your partner is looking at your feet, she will try to copy your footwork (and if you're looking at her feet, you might try to match hers) more often than not resulting in even more confusion.
I recommend to anyone who has difficulty doing the walk to actually close their eyes and feel the direction, feel the lead and become aware of where their feet are, rather than have to look at them.
The same applies to guys (though I wouldn't advocate closing their eyes), not only can I feel where my feet are and what they're doing, I am also aware of where my partner's feet are doing because I'm paying attention to her balance / momentum and have built a clear frame.

The above however will only work if you are leading footwork that your partner is 1 - aware of, and 2 - able to follow.
Some footworks / walks are easy enough for complete Beginners, but others really need to be learnt and practised.
So both men and ladies should try and do a footwork workshop, so they get to practise the different steps / walks until their body is able to do them without thinking. Once that is achieved, provided the lead is clear and the frame is in place, the footwork will happen naturally, and look amazing.


Having done 20 minutes of footwork patterns (without a partner) being taught by Nigel at Ealing I have to admit to feeling unco-ordinated, unbalanced and totally in awe of those capable of doing the footwork patterns. :worthy: :worthy:

God help us blokes trying to lead a walk with a partner. :eek: :eek:

DianaS
15th-July-2004, 11:51 AM
The best is Synchronised footwork and looking at your partner.

As Andy has mentioned, the way the man leads the walk is the crux of the matter. The man should build a frame with his partner and use his hands, elbow, shoulders, thighs, hips, whatever part of the body is in contact to indicate to his partner the direction, distance, angle and speed of travel.
If your partner is looking at your feet, she will try to copy your footwork (and if you're looking at her feet, you might try to match hers) more often than not resulting in even more confusion.
I recommend to anyone who has difficulty doing the walk to actually close their eyes and feel the direction, feel the lead and become aware of where their feet are, rather than have to look at them.
The same applies to guys (though I wouldn't advocate closing their eyes), not only can I feel where my feet are and what they're doing, I am also aware of where my partner's feet are doing because I'm paying attention to her balance / momentum and have built a clear frame.

The above however will only work if you are leading footwork that your partner is 1 - aware of, and 2 - able to follow.
Some footworks / walks are easy enough for complete Beginners, but others really need to be learnt and practised.
So both men and ladies should try and do a footwork workshop, so they get to practise the different steps / walks until their body is able to do them without thinking. Once that is achieved, provided the lead is clear and the frame is in place, the footwork will happen naturally, and look amazing.
Thanks Franck, it's really good to hear from you again, I haven't done a footwork workshop so perhaps its time I looked for one near to me.
I have decided to do some ball room lessons from September is there any particular style that combines nicely with MJ?

Franck
15th-July-2004, 12:06 PM
Thanks Franck, it's really good to hear from you again, I haven't done a footwork workshop so perhaps its time I looked for one near to me.
I have decided to do some ball room lessons from September is there any particular style that combines nicely with MJ?I reckon all ballroom dances will teach you about frame and get you to practise footwork a lot, the only thing I find with Ballroom is they try to teach too many things at once, with the result that you progress very slowly (if at all) in any particular style.

The footwork workshops we teach up here, tend to be an introduction to the basic steps / patterns, which allows you to learn which ones you like or suit you and then go practise them.
I often recommend practising footwork during the Beginners class, while you're 'expected' to get things wrong and fall over :wink:
You can practise the crossovers / side steps / cross behind with the armjive.
You can work on your triple steps (focusing on subtlety) during the first move, basket etc... as well as working on sweeps / rondes in the twist out!

One thing to be aware of though is that every time you learn / work on new footwork, your dancing will suffer badly, until you've assimilated the pattern. Your leading / following will almost disappear, which is why it's better to practise at home and during the Beginners class, leaving the freestyle to be fun.

Gadget
15th-July-2004, 12:10 PM
I've just had a look at your thread on your progress, it seems a better idea than these random threads that I keep starting on this weeks burning issue.
Your way has the advantage of being a specific topic to discuss and get feedback. I'm just waffling in my thread {what's new? :rolleyes:}. Keep it up. :D

perhaps I'm misunderstanding our teacher: We are told REALLY CLEARLY not to look at our feet.
Nope I don't think you are - as per Franck's post, what I've been taught is to never look at your feet or your partners. Looks a lotbetter.
I have been taught how to hold the 'frame' and control the lady within it; from excellent teachers like David/Lilly, Adam/Mandy, Franck, Lorna....

It's relatively easy in classes because the lady knows what's happening, but actually leading it in freestyle...:what:

The problem I have is that I really can't do footwork: it took me three weeks to get the basic salsa "tap-step out/transfer-transfer back-step in." :tears:
I would hate to even attempt Lindy'.

It's a weakness I normally try to hide by not doing any walks. Unfortunately, recent developments in my dancing mean they are now fairly common...I suppose it's yet another thing to work on.

bigdjiver
15th-July-2004, 12:14 PM
I like putting in simple walks from the first move step back position, just saying "walk" and stepping in time with the music. Few partners have a problem following my style, and most seem to enjoy something different. I also like what I call "crab" walks, side to side. Move toes R. weight on toes, move heels R, weight on heels etc
I also like a slow pass after a side-to-side with leader and follower "crabbing" in opposite directions.

There is a whole science of "strolling" which was developed in the Rock'n'roll era and goes back to the swing era, which has evolved into Line Dance and the Madison etc. There is a guy called Duncan who has made Strolls a feature of the 3rd Floor Wed. Jive Sessions in Bedford. He has incorporated these techniques into his MJ. P.M. me if interested.

spindr
15th-July-2004, 12:25 PM
If you really want to sort out walking try Argentine Tango -- it's nothing *but* walking (and I still can't get it right! :( ). I think some (of the Bristol) classes are even mixing it up: MJ + AT == Jango?

One thing I find difficult is to lead a MJ followers to commit weight onto a single (known) foot -- it's more difficult to lead swivelling moves if you can't get the lady to commit weight onto one foot.

SpinDr.

Franck
15th-July-2004, 12:32 PM
One thing I find difficult is to lead a MJ followers to commit weight onto a single (known) foot -- it's more difficult to lead swivelling moves if you can't get the lady to commit weight onto one foot.This can be lead (even with Beginners MJ dancers) by taking extra time, and doing a couple of 'blues' swaying motion, using your frame to help your partner transfer her weight on either foot.
Once you can feel your partner moving with you, you will be aware of her momentum and where he weight is, you can then lead any swivelling motion.
I normally explain that when teaching moves like the one where you sweep your partner's left foot out to the side with your right foot / leg and then drag her right foot with your left. This will only work if you're aware of your partner's position and able to control her weight transferance.

spindr
15th-July-2004, 12:34 PM
I would hate to even attempt Lindy'.

Gadget, don't be disheartened -- Lindy really is very, very simple to start with -- you don't have to dive into complicated triple steps straight away.

Just start with the simplest 6 beat version:
SLOW: step (flat L)
SLOW: step (flat R)
QUICK/QUICK: back-rock (L/R)

You can replace the SLOW with a step-press QUICK/QUICK action on toe and then to flat OR you can replace the SLOW with a tri-ple-step 1-a-2 action.

Then you can do the 8 beat variations :)

SpinDr.

spindr
15th-July-2004, 12:40 PM
This can be lead (even with Beginners MJ dancers) by taking extra time, and doing a couple of 'blues' swaying motion, using your frame to help your partner transfer her weight on either foot.

This is basically what you do in AT to start.

I guess what I really meant was it's difficult at speed -- the best I've come up with is to lead a first move up until the lady sways back and then most ladies will have their weight committed mostly on their left foot, as they won't keep much weight on the right at that point. And then try to lead "definite" steps with a real weight change -- so that the lady doesn't leave half her weight on both feet.

SpinDr.

Franck
15th-July-2004, 01:02 PM
I guess what I really meant was it's difficult at speed -- This is why I said it could be done by taking extra time.

One of the things about Ceroc / MJ is that as a leader, you can make very few assumptions about your partner, you really have to pay attention and take the necessary measures to make sure your partner will follow what you're about to lead.
In Tango, you can take a frame for granted, in West-Coast-Swing, you can expect your partner to walk along the slot, etc...
In Ceroc anything can (and often does) happen, which is why I think ultimately it is richer and more fun, all of the above can still happen, but you're not trapped within it.


the best I've come up with is to lead a first move up until the lady sways back and then most ladies will have their weight committed mostly on their left foot, as they won't keep much weight on the right at that point. And then try to lead "definite" steps with a real weight change -- so that the lady doesn't leave half her weight on both feet.I'm not sure what you mean by leading definite steps? or how you do it?
The example above is a great start-up position for becoming aware of your partner's balance and you can do a lot using a good frame and eye contact... :nice:

spindr
15th-July-2004, 01:29 PM
This is why I said it could be done by taking extra time.

One of the things about Ceroc / MJ is that as a leader, you can make very few assumptions about your partner, you really have to pay attention and take the necessary measures to make sure your partner will follow what you're about to lead.
In Tango, you can take a frame for granted, in West-Coast-Swing, you can expect your partner to walk along the slot, etc...

Ok, I was going to write I expect a good frame in Ceroc / MJ -- actually that's not true: I really, really like a good handhold connection and frame in Ceroc / MJ and I find dancing with a follower with a good frame (and who gives you their body :devil: ) can be amazing.

Anyway, I don't know that you can take anything for granted in any dance style if you're dancing socially with a variety of people at varying levels :)


In Ceroc anything can (and often does) happen, which is why I think ultimately it is richer and more fun, all of the above can still happen, but you're not trapped within it.

I am no where near able to do it -- but I think if you're good enough you can play about with any dance form -- I've seen turns improvised into social tango, and the odd lift, drop and semi-acrobatic move -- and at least WCS seems to lend itself to improvisation.


I'm not sure what you mean by leading definite steps? or how you do it?

I think there are maybe three options:
1). use right hand on hip to lower lady slightly on that foot -- similar with left hand try to indicate a lowering of weight.
2). make the steps light and quick so that the lady (doesn't have time to think?) and just steps left, right, left, right...
3). lead a really good slide -- hopefully the lady's weight will be on the foot in the direction of the slide?


The example above is a great start-up position for becoming aware of your partner's balance and you can do a lot using a good frame and eye contact... :nice:

It's definitely good for adding unexpected clockwise "circling" to a sequence.

SpinDr.

Emma
15th-July-2004, 01:45 PM
Nope I don't think you are - as per Franck's post, what I've been taught is to never look at your feet or your partners. Looks a lotbetter.My twopennorth (for what it's worth, am not exactly a footwork queen :rofl: ) is that recently I have noticed that footworky stuff often works better/feels better if you don't look at your feet. This relies on the lead (as Franck said), but Mr Pownall (sir) also mentioned on Sunday night that it also ensures your balance is right.

Plus you can fix a big grin on your face and *sparkle* which hopefully draws the lead's attention away from the fact that you're fudging it up :grin:

Gordon J Pownall
15th-July-2004, 02:40 PM
My twopennorth (for what it's worth, am not exactly a footwork queen :rofl: ) is that recently I have noticed that footworky stuff often works better/feels better if you don't look at your feet. This relies on the lead (as Franck said), but Mr Pownall (sir) also mentioned on Sunday night that it also ensures your balance is right.

Plus you can fix a big grin on your face and *sparkle* which hopefully draws the lead's attention away from the fact that you're fudging it up :grin:

Ceroc has usually said as an added bebefit of it being an accessible form of dance that there is no complicated footwork.

I truly believe that (when I started dancing anyway), little footwork was taught and some teachers (but not many IMHO and from personal experience), did very little footwork in classes.

Have a look (those that can) in teh Ceroc Moves Bible - very few with footwork patterns..

In classes though I do try to introduce simple footwork patterns, or footwork movements.

Use it or lose it - (see my previous post somewhere about footwork and footwork patterns)....it is a catch 22 situation - if it's not taught then it's not known, if it's not known it's not danced....

Just ask a MJ class who wants to do / likes footwork (as I have done) - the usual response is eeeuuugh.........don't like footwork....(certainly from the majority).

Anyway,

thanks Emma for your kind comments on the class I taught at CerocMetro's Chigwell venue on Sunday last.

I'm glad you and the rest of the class (who when asked, said they didn't like footwork) had a great laugh, a good dance and by the end of the class looked really good and proficient with the footwork patterns...... :clap: :worthy:

Franck
15th-July-2004, 02:49 PM
Ceroc has usually said as an added benefit of it being an accessible form of dance that there is no complicated footwork.The important thing, is that there is no complicated footwork for Beginners. Many intermediate moves involve footwork, and it is (or indeed should) be taught regularly.

My view is that if you teach footwork too early, you put people off dancing as they get all the difficult stuff at the beginning and very little positive feedback.
Once people are hooked and motivated, teaching them footwork is useful to help them improve.

I believe that over the last 5 years, more (and fancier) variations have been 'borrowed' from other dance styles (as they started to breakthrough in the UK thanks in part to a larger potential base of dancers brought on by Ceroc and other MJ classes). This is a great thing, as not all footwork suits everyone, different styles fit different people, not everyone looks good doing WCS footwork, or hip hop, lindy, tango etc... However, most people get a chance to try the different variations, all under one roof and with no pressure to conform.

Gordon J Pownall
15th-July-2004, 03:03 PM
The important thing, is that there is no complicated footwork for Beginners. Many intermediate moves involve footwork, and it is (or indeed should) be taught regularly.

My view is that if you teach footwork too early, you put people off dancing as they get all the difficult stuff at the beginning and very little positive feedback.
Once people are hooked and motivated, teaching them footwork is useful to help them improve.

I believe that over the last 5 years, more (and fancier) variations have been 'borrowed' from other dance styles (as they started to breakthrough in the UK thanks in part to a larger potential base of dancers brought on by Ceroc and other MJ classes). This is a great thing, as not all footwork suits everyone, different styles fit different people, not everyone looks good doing WCS footwork, or hip hop, lindy, tango etc... However, most people get a chance to try the different variations, all under one roof and with no pressure to conform.


:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

Emma
15th-July-2004, 03:07 PM
I truly believe that (when I started dancing anyway), little footwork was taught and some teachers (but not many IMHO and from personal experience), did very little footwork in classes.

Have a look (those that can) in teh Ceroc Moves Bible - very few with footwork patterns..

In classes though I do try to introduce simple footwork patterns, or footwork movements.

Use it or lose it - (see my previous post somewhere about footwork and footwork patterns)....it is a catch 22 situation - if it's not taught then it's not known, if it's not known it's not danced....

Just ask a MJ class who wants to do / likes footwork (as I have done) - the usual response is eeeuuugh.........don't like footwork....(certainly from the majority)Oh look....man on mission! :wink: :hug:

Gadget
15th-July-2004, 04:04 PM
(see my previous post somewhere about footwork and footwork patterns)
We're not going to have another "footwork" discussion are we? :rolleyes:
Walks, by their very nature, involve footwork. Anything else (*) is just styling and balance. I believe that the feet are only there to make sure you don't fall over - most specific foot positions are for maximum balance and "centering" of your & your partner's weight. As long as your feet prevent you/your partner from falling over - that's all that technically matters. The rest is just style and flourish.

{IMHO}

(* within reason :whistle: )

under par
15th-July-2004, 04:13 PM
We're not going to have another "footwork" discussion are we? :rolleyes:
Walks, by their very nature, involve footwork. Anything else (*) is just styling and balance. I believe that the feet are only there to make sure you don't fall over - most specific foot positions are for maximum balance and "centering" of your & your partner's weight. As long as your feet prevent you/your partner from falling over - that's all that technically matters. The rest is just style and flourish.

{IMHO}

(* within reason :whistle: )

Gadget , well said ......being 6'8" my feet are very long way from brain, messages take light years to arrive. :whistle:

I end up stepping out of some classes if they involve too much footwork cos it makes my brain ache trying to get it right.

spindr
15th-July-2004, 04:46 PM
Just ask a MJ class who wants to do / likes footwork (as I have done) - the usual response is eeeuuugh.........don't like footwork....(certainly from the majority).

ODA mode on: I blame the teachers! :)

I think that *some* teachers (and note the some there) -- actually worry the class much more than they need to -- and some of those may do so to raise their apparent abilities.

I see some Salsa teachers *just say* -- "lead a double-time spin", or "guys do 2.5 turns under the arm" -- and they don't make a big thing about it.

When I see some MJ teachers teach similar moves, they say "I'm going to teach you all a very hard move now"...
(subtext: I'm a really good teacher to try and teach you this -- but you probably won't be able to do it)
...doesn't put the class into a particularly receptive mode to learn?

It's not just a Ceroc / MJ issue tho' -- I've seen Lindy teachers say that the Swingout (Lindy Turn) is really hard *before* they teach it... unsurprisingly, less of the class managed to get it than in classes where it's just taught without worrying everyone.

ODA mode off.

Anyway, just wonder whether asking the class about footwork is a good idea 'cause it might worry them that it might be slightly challenging. Maybe asking at the end of the class if they'd be happy to do similar stuff again next week -- that's a different question :)

SpinDr.

Lory
15th-July-2004, 04:57 PM
Just ask a MJ class who wants to do / likes footwork (as I have done) - the usual response is eeeuuugh.........don't like footwork....(certainly from the majority).


Well I love it!

As I used to Tap dance, I find footwork fairly easy to follow but what I find frustrating, is whenever someone throws some in, in the middle of freestyling, it always comes as a complete suprise and catches me out! :tears: (because its so infrequently done)

I often ask the lead if they would repeat the move later on, with some warning, to give me a chance to do it properly! :cool:

DianaS
15th-July-2004, 06:02 PM
Well I love it!

As I used to Tap dance, I find footwork fairly easy to follow but what I find frustrating, is whenever someone throws some in, in the middle of freestyling, it always comes as a complete suprise and catches me out! :tears: (because its so infrequently done)

I often ask the lead if they would repeat the move later on, with some warning, to give me a chance to do it properly! :cool:
I love it too! probably because martial artists are very precise with their movements, and I felt a real sense of accomplishment perfecting a pattern

Tiggerbabe
16th-July-2004, 01:11 AM
......being 6'8" my feet are very long way from brain.
I take it your brain is situated in a different place from the "typical" male then :wink: :whistle: :whistle: :innocent:

under par
16th-July-2004, 01:45 AM
I take it your brain is situated in a different place from the "typical" male then :wink: :whistle: :whistle: :innocent:

My brain is in the normal place Sheena..................

.................about 6'7" from my toes :angry: :hug:

Tiggerbabe
16th-July-2004, 08:18 AM
Just checkin' :blush: :blush: :wink: :hug: :kiss:

Lou
16th-July-2004, 08:35 AM
Anyway, just wonder whether asking the class about footwork is a good idea 'cause it might worry them that it might be slightly challenging. Maybe asking at the end of the class if they'd be happy to do similar stuff again next week -- that's a different question :)

The funny thing is that until I came here I didn't realise footwork wasn't taught in Ceroc! Every LeRoc class I'd been to taught it as standard, and I knew no different. Yes - it was something extra to think about when I was first starting out - but it didn't put me off. And, with hindsight, I'm actually glad I was taught it, because it has made me a better dancer.

I equate it to learning to type properly. I've so many bad habits - I wish I'd learnt it at an early age, instead of relying on my interesting 4 finger style I have now! :rolleyes:

Franck
16th-July-2004, 09:57 AM
The funny thing is that until I came here I didn't realise footwork wasn't taught in Ceroc! Every LeRoc class I'd been to taught it as standard, and I knew no different.I'm not sure what you mean by footwork in that context? Do you mean that beginners at Leroc are taught walks? Columbians? Tango cross overs? Triple steps? Lindy kicks?

Yes - it was something extra to think about when I was first starting out - but it didn't put me off. And, with hindsight, I'm actually glad I was taught it, because it has made me a better dancer.There are 2 assumptions here. First that it didn't put you off, so therefore it is fine, it might have been fine for you, but how many people (men in particular) gave up *because* of the footwork?
The second is that it made you a better dancer. Of course you became a great dancer, but where is your evidence that classes where footwork is not forced upon you wouldn't have worked just the same?
As discussed in another thread on which foot to step back on, this is all to individual preference and (sometimes fanciful) theories by individual teachers. Teaching Beginners to step back on their {insert right or left depending on preference} foot will only result - as you said - in something extra to think about (and by implication something extra to get wrong), in my view quite un-necessarily.
I could just as easily argue that we produce more great dancers by barely mentioning footwork to Beginners as fewer of them give up, and footwork can be taught later on, once you're hooked on dancing.

I equate it to learning to type properly. I've so many bad habits - I wish I'd learnt it at an early age, instead of relying on my interesting 4 finger style I have now! :rolleyes:This is an interesting analogy. Some people become very good at typing with 2/3/4 fingers and can indeed type very fast. Touch typing purists would argue that you have to learn the proper way (preferably at school) and that it's the only way to type properly.
Personally, I was a very good 2 finger typist until I needed to be able to type and watch my children at the same time. I taught myself to touch-type using one of the free typing programmes available on the internet, and I was touch-typing within 2 weeks. I didn't feel disadvantaged because I had learnt to type with 2 fingers first, and I'm very pleased I did, but if someone had insisted I learnt to touch-type before I could use a computer, and spend days / weeks learning before I felt I needed to, in order to use it, I might just have thought it wasn't worth the effort!

DianaS
16th-July-2004, 10:15 AM
Little update

I saw my dance teacher at another venue last night and asked him about following on the walkie things. It was really useful, and perhaps I should talk to him more, but I tend to respect the space of my teachers quite a bit because after two one hour lessons I'm sure that they are tired and need to chill...

Thanks for talking to me about this stuff. If I hadn't articulated my thoughts here and been able to read other people's ways and experience I wouldn't have been able to ask him so precisely about aspects of leading and following on walks.

Best wishes
D :clap:

Lou
16th-July-2004, 10:32 AM
I know I'm totally in the minority here with my viewpoint! :grin:


I'm not sure what you mean by footwork in that context?
Just the simplest steps back with particular feet. So, for instance for the lady to always step back on the left before a First Move, etc., always to step back on the right before a return, always to step back on the left when completing a return, etc....


There are 2 assumptions here. First that it didn't put you off, so therefore it is fine, it might have been fine for you, but how many people (men in particular) gave up *because* of the footwork?
Absolutely! Unfortunately, there's no way to quantify, because we're not offered an alternative. But there's a lot of LeRoc dancers in Bristol....


The second is that it made you a better dancer.
It did - but that's because I'm not a natural dancer and I personally find it easier to follow a taught technique. But, again, I can only speak for my own experience.


As discussed in another thread on which foot to step back on, this is all to individual preference and (sometimes fanciful) theories by individual teachers. Teaching Beginners to step back on their {insert right or left depending on preference} foot will only result - as you said - in something extra to think about (and by implication something extra to get wrong), in my view quite un-necessarily.
As I say - I know I'm in the minority here! :nice: In general, my footwork has a logic which ties into direction of spin. I think it was SpinDr who said there was a similar technique in Salsa on that thread (sorry if I've remembered wrongly). There was also a thread about it on our Australian Cousins' site, which said that they taught similar footwork for very similar reasons. All I know is that it works for me & makes it easier for me. And that I have less of a hang-up about footwork - as it's always been a part of the dance for me.

I suspect it's just one of those subjects that we'll have to agree to disagree on!

Baruch
18th-July-2004, 08:53 AM
I know I'm totally in the minority here with my viewpoint! :grin:
...

I suspect it's just one of those subjects that we'll have to agree to disagree on!

I'm with you on this. I've been taught basic footwork ever since I started Le Roc, so it's not an added burden for me. You get used to it quickly. I do think sometimes it looks better if you step back on a certain foot, e.g. mirroring your partner when doing a first move, and if you learn footwork from the start you don't have to unlearn any bad habits later on when you're improving.

In reply to Franck, though, in Cardiff we do learn triple steps, columbians etc in the beginners' class occasionally. Generally the rest of the beginner moves will be relatively easy ones though, and the teachers usually make it clear that the trickier move is more for improvers than beginners. I guess the theory is that it makes the step up to intermediate easier.

Lou
19th-July-2004, 01:40 PM
I'm with you on this. I've been taught basic footwork ever since I started Le Roc, so it's not an added burden for me. You get used to it quickly.
:grin: It's nice to know I'm not the only one.

Although I'm quite disappointed that I received an anonymous neg rep for that post. I wish that person had posted their viewpoint instead, as I'm always open to a good debate.

Andy McGregor
19th-July-2004, 02:32 PM
Although I'm quite disappointed that I received an anonymous neg rep for that post. I wish that person had posted their viewpoint instead, as I'm always open to a good debate.

I get a lot of negative rep for some of my posts:tears: I also get slightly more positive rep so I keep the 3 green squares :clap: :thankyou: I've found that when I complain about anonymous negative rep givers I get even more negative rep for complaining :tears:

I expect I'll get some more negative rep for revealing this :innocent:


My advice is to post like nobody's reading, dance like nobody's watching and

err..

..make love like a tiger...? :confused:

Lou
19th-July-2004, 02:37 PM
My advice is to post like nobody's reading, dance like nobody's watching and

err..

...work on my Latin footwork? :wink:

:flower:

Franck
19th-July-2004, 02:40 PM
I'm with you on this. I've been taught basic footwork ever since I started Le Roc, so it's not an added burden for me. You get used to it quickly. I do think sometimes it looks better if you step back on a certain foot, e.g. mirroring your partner when doing a first move, and if you learn footwork from the start you don't have to unlearn any bad habits later on when you're improving.I have no argument with the above, and agree that some footwork looks better than others in some circumstances, but in most cases footwork is a style point rather than an absolute necessary. You (and Lou) obviously survived / enjoyed the challenge, but what about the dozens of people who are / were truly ackward and self conscious about their feet? Forcing them to learn footwork, when they would be perfectly able to learn to dance and have a great time without it seems a shame to me!

Some people start at classes and are naturals, they do fancy footwork and follow / lead well from the start.
Others struggle to learn even the basics, but somehow get motivated and work hard at it.
Some struggle, are put off and don't come back. For them, the fun, inspirational element of dancing *had* to come first.

For all the above footwork and other style and technical aspects can be learned at a later date, when they are ready for it!

In reply to Franck, though, in Cardiff we do learn triple steps, columbians etc in the beginners' class occasionally. Generally the rest of the beginner moves will be relatively easy ones though, and the teachers usually make it clear that the trickier move is more for improvers than beginners. I guess the theory is that it makes the step up to intermediate easier.That completely baffles me I must admit, there is a huge difference between introducing beginners to step back on (left / right) foot and teaching them the above fancy variations.
I also don't think this is a Leroc / Ceroc difference as most of the Leroc classes I am aware of, hardly ever teach any footwork at all. It is more likely to be an 'individual teacher' influence. Probably one or two of your local teachers are good at and love footwork and started teaching more and more of it.

To be clear, I don't mean that you cannot teach footwork to complete Beginners, any good teacher should be able to do so, I am only questioning the necessity and benefits of doing so... There are many really good dancers I know who would probably never have made it that far if having 2 left feet was a problem. In the long term, I see no evidence that teaching footwork produced better / more technical dancers either. There will be as many good dancers in Bristol say as in Edinburgh, Aberdeen etc... (Dundee notwithstanding as it is the centre of the dancing universe :wink: )

Although I'm quite disappointed that I received an anonymous neg rep for that post. I wish that person had posted their viewpoint instead, as I'm always open to a good debate.Just to correct you there Lou, you never got any negative reputation, just a neutral reputation (I believe it was meant as a positive one) by someone who hasn't posted enough to give plus or minus points. So you can relax, everyone loves you still :nice:

Lou
19th-July-2004, 02:56 PM
So you can relax, everyone loves you still :nice:

:clap: Awwwwwww.... shucks! :flower: :hug: :etc.....: ;)

DianaS
2nd-August-2004, 04:41 PM
How many people practice their walks up and down the isles of the supermaket? Amirs Snake walk, wow does that make you feel sexy, was well in action last night...Umm
and while we're at it how many people dance with the trolley? and does it follow better than your usual partner!?

I hadda lovely time and didnt want to come home :tears:

Baruch
2nd-August-2004, 04:51 PM
and while we're at it how many people dance with the trolley? and does it follow better than your usual partner!?
I will confess to doing the odd bit of dancing with a shopping trolley in the aisles of Morrison's now and then. Like a real living partner, it has a mind of its own and doesn't always go where you want it to :whistle:

under par
3rd-August-2004, 12:13 PM
How many people practice their walks up and down the isles of the supermaket? Amirs Snake walk, wow does that make you feel sexy, was well in action last night...Umm
and while we're at it how many people dance with the trolley? and does it follow better than your usual partner!?

I hadda lovely time and didnt want to come home :tears:

I found myself practising the walk in the corridors of a court house the other week. :eek:

It must of looked very silly as I was dressed in my uniform. :rofl:

I'm sure nobody saw me!! :blush:

Lory
3rd-August-2004, 12:56 PM
I will confess to doing the odd bit of dancing with a shopping trolley in the aisles of Morrison's now and then. Like a real living partner, it has a mind of its own and doesn't always go where you want it to :whistle:I alway's get the trolley that wants to do circle dancing! :angry: :rofl:

Gordon J Pownall
3rd-August-2004, 02:05 PM
I alway's get the trolley that wants to do circle dancing! :angry: :rofl:

Could be worse.......it could be a trolley that wants to do line dancing and loves the Mavericks or Country and Western music...... :drool: :eek:

under par
4th-August-2004, 02:07 AM
Could be worse.......it could be a trolley that wants to do line dancing and loves the Mavericks or Country and Western music...... :drool: :eek:


There's nothing wrong with the Mavericks...... excellent group.

Gordon J Pownall
4th-August-2004, 02:45 PM
There's nothing wrong with the Mavericks...... excellent group.

Shall we agree to disagree - I really don't have the energy in all this heat..... :whistle:

under par
4th-August-2004, 04:14 PM
Shall we agree to disagree - I really don't have the energy in all this heat..... :whistle:


No I definatley disagree to agreeing with you :eek:

It is hot!!!!

Gordon J Pownall
4th-August-2004, 04:15 PM
[QUOTE=under par]No I definatley disagree to agreeing with you :eek: /QUOTE]


We're agreed then....good..... :grin:

DianaS
4th-August-2004, 04:31 PM
You two are SO silly...
I'm going to put you in the naughty corner! :clap:
Question: Do you dance with trolleys?
And have you ever been refused?

Gordon J Pownall
4th-August-2004, 04:37 PM
You two are SO silly...
I'm going to put you in the naughty corner! :clap:
Question: Do you dance with trolleys?
And have you ever been refused?

Errr.....Dance with trolleys - I think this girl has gone quite mad and is living in another reality.........

Errr... Dianas.......trolleys can't talk dear....they are used for carrying shopping about......

Mind you (thinks laterally)... I did once have a bit of a dance with a trolley in Tescos - it was my second choice of trolley because I couldn't get my pouind coin in the first one so I guess it kind of refused......

Horror - I've been refused a dance by a shopping trolley :what: :what: :what: :what:

Lory
4th-August-2004, 05:08 PM
Horror - I've been refused a dance by a shopping trolley :what: :what: :what: :what:Gordy baby! you really aren't doing your street cred any good at all! :wink: :rofl:

under par
5th-August-2004, 06:03 AM
You two are SO silly...
I'm going to put you in the naughty corner! :clap:
Question: Do you dance with trolleys?
And have you ever been refused?


I agree to go to naughty boys corner....................but I disagree if I can't wear the big hat instead of 'im :angry: :hug: :wink:

DianaS
5th-August-2004, 11:44 AM
I agree to go to naughty boys corner....................but I disagree if I can't wear the big hat instead of 'im :angry: :hug: :wink:
See you there then :wink:

anitaL
10th-August-2004, 08:37 PM
I agree, I really love being led into various 'walks' when dancing--unfortunately very few men do this. Luckily the main teacher I learn with in Bristol loves walks so I usually get walked all over the dance floor in the freestyle if theres space--Im not sure how he leads it though-- its so subtle that it seems to happen naturally, although I am guilty of looking down at our feet sometimes.

DianaS
10th-August-2004, 08:54 PM
I agree, I really love being led into various 'walks' when dancing--unfortunately very few men do this. Luckily the main teacher I learn with in Bristol loves walks so I usually get walked all over the dance floor in the freestyle if theres space--Im not sure how he leads it though-- its so subtle that it seems to happen naturally, although I am guilty of looking down at our feet sometimes.
I had a really nice dance with Andy, my teacher the other night. He doesn't know about my other on line life...
and I looked at him and said "I'm not looking at my feet" and he said "neither am I" (He probably thinks I'm crackers)
It just seemed to come naturally. We went on a walk and I didn't even think about it, 'till I realised! I do like the walks. Some people around here call them promenades, they are really lovely, and feel really special!
D