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Gus
9th-October-2002, 02:45 PM
Contentious Subject No. 34a

One of my common bugbears about 'cowboy' instructors has been their predeliction with drops and seducers ... there are several in my area which have caused me (and other dancers) no end of problems in letting badly trained dancers off onto dancefloors doing moves they are patently not capable of doing safely.

Ceroc Teacher Association (CTA) trains Ceroc teachers only to do the minimal amount of drops on stage (orange moves) ... ALWAYS to be taught with an alternative and NEVER to teach red moves (e.g. Ballroom drop, Nelson seducers, lifts).

Imagine my surprise when over the last few months I've seen and heard of sevral occaisions of such moves being taught from stage. :tears:

OK .. don't claim to be a master expert in drops but I've done enough training and taught enough to know that you CANNOT teach such drops safely in the usual Ceroc format ... they should always be taught in a workshop environment. Even the main independant oirgainstaions agree on that.

So ... whats going on .... is it some teachers just having a rush of ego or has there been a change of policy. Could be a bit contentious as (alledgely) there was a case brought against a Ceroc teacher that was only dropped because of the cost of financing the case. Given all the news about injuries been caused, this is any area that really needs to be watched.

Also ... from a risk management standpoint, if a teacher teaches a non-Ceroc move and is then sued, does the Ceroc Public Liability Insurance still cover this incident?

Oh ... and before the non-Ceroc instructors start any holier than thou responses .... from what I've seen, Ceroc are the least worst of the competitors I've seen.

Comments please

Lou
9th-October-2002, 03:17 PM
So - what are you suggesting, Gus? All drops, leans, lifts, seducers, etc. should only be taught in workshops/specialist classes? If you are - I think I'm on your side.

Personally, I loathe it when one of those moves is included in a regular class. I find it hard to put my trust in a stranger.

To give him his due, Mandy & Sherif do arrange specific drops classes, where you stay with the same partner. That works well. Also, if, on the occasion they include one of these moves in the regular class format, they're careful to teach an alternative - normally a wiggle-type move - for those of us who are uncomfortable with it. I, for one, appreciate it - but not all Leroc teachers in this area are so obliging.

Emma
9th-October-2002, 03:34 PM
Hmmm..funny you should bring this up Gus..I was recently at a party night where a jump was taught, taught very quickly and with no alternative...

This probably wouldn't have bothered me to be honest, only I got dropped (or did I fall off? It all happened rather quickly..) which bruised my knees as well as my pride and left me feeling very chary about the whole concept of jumps and drops. Like - never again with someone I don't know :what:

Bill
9th-October-2002, 03:57 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gus
[B]Contentious Subject No. 34a

One of my common bugbears about 'cowboy' instructors has been their predeliction with drops and seducers ... there are several in my area which have caused me (and other dancers) no end of problems in letting badly trained dancers off onto dancefloors doing moves they are patently not capable of doing safely.



For goodness sake man.........................I can't keep up with reading your threads let alone reply to them..........:rolleyes:

But again you are right:sick: .......I'm really going to have to have a go soon:p


I do few drops though I do like seducers :D mainly becuase I'm too aware of how dangerous they can be and I'd like to get my partner off the floor in one piece and without blood pouring from her !

The number of times I've seen close shaves with feet and heads in close proximity :eek: and very often the man dropping the woman being totally oblivious to it ! But some women love drops and if it's safe, plenty of room and you know your partner then yep.....go for it and have fun but I know up here Lorna and Franck and the others teach these moves very safely, go through all the blurb about doing it safely and demonstrate an alternative.
They are also very good at reminding couples to discuss whether they want to do the move with their new partner as they move on.

The few drops I do do, I do with a few women I trust and who trust me :) but there are some women who almost throw themselves into drops or seducers even if you didn't intend doing the move. :reallymad

Nice to know we are safe up here......or rather that the moves are taught safely. The teachers can hardly be responsible for how some individuals then use or interpret the moves.

Gus
9th-October-2002, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by bill foreman
[QUOTE The teachers can hardly be responsible for how some individuals then use or interpret the moves.

Good point .. I was at a venue last night where there are posters advertising an advanced workshop with a photo of the instructors (Matt and Helen) doing a stylised ballroom drop.

Cue some lad who grabs a woman, looks at the photo and with that being the sum total of training proceeds to haul the woman round the floor trying to do it. Bring someone elses association I didn't feel I could just step in and stop them, thats for the venue mangement to do, but I did grab the lass afterwards and explain that throwing your head back, taking one foot off the floor and trusting the guy in the first place were all major mistakes.

Not sure how well the guy took it when someone later suggested he should do a workshop.

Fear not Bill ... nearly fnished details for the workshop ... and it will incorpoprate a session on drops.

Tiggerbabe
9th-October-2002, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Gus


Fear not Bill ... nearly fnished details for the workshop ... and it will incorpoprate a session on drops.

Well, I hope you've got a second date arranged for your next workshop coz if it's on the same day as the 10th anniv. party then I won't manage to go:tears: :tears: :tears:

DavidB
9th-October-2002, 07:02 PM
It is unfortunately too late to stop people doing drops. They are just too popular. They allow virtually complete beginners to show in front of their friends without spending the time in learning how to dance. There's nothing wrong with this, as long as they are safe. Defining what is safe is the problem.

Some venues have policies on not doing any lifts, but drops are allowed. Most allow anything. Virtually every venue can be dangerous.

From what I've seen there would be few drops or lifts teachers that could satisfy an insurance company that they are sufficiently qualified or experienced, and all of them would have problems convincing a judge or jury.

Ceroc's grading of drops is a start, but do they have training courses specifically for lifts? Who gets consulted when devising training courses? If the training were not as thorough as say for Gymnastics/Sports Acrobatic coaches, then you can bet a lawyer will point this out.

Do you get taught injury prevention? Do you have qualified first-aiders on hand? Do you get taught how to spot?

I just hope dancers can get together with some other recognised body to say what is safe, rather than waiting for the lawyers. With the 'no win no fee' system, people are not going to be put off by the cost anymore. And then no-one will be able to afford to teach drops.

David

Gus
9th-October-2002, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Ceroc's grading of drops is a start, but do they have training courses specifically for lifts? Who gets consulted when devising training courses? If the training were not as thorough as say for Gymnastics/Sports Acrobatic coaches, then you can bet a lawyer will point this out.

Do you get taught injury prevention? Do you have qualified first-aiders on hand? Do you get taught how to spot?

David

Dave, CTA teachers are taught lifts ... but for private use only ... and I've got to say if I hadn't been trained in aerials by Andy and Rena I still wouldn't be able to do them correctly. CTA has it strengths ... teaching lifts is not one of them ... thats why I don't think there is any lift that a Ceroc teacher can teach from stage.

The only people I would ever recommend for lifts is Andy and Rena ... but even they point out just how dangerous it is. It would be great to get some 'profesional training' from a gym/acro coach ... but where would you go and would they be able to teach moves that fitted in to Modern Jive?

The reality is that while there are no real 'experts' in this field ... just self taught independants, what chace does the average punter have of getting safe training. How many of the cowboys teaching around the UK even have proper indemnity insurance?? That should be the first question you ask ANYONE running a workshop.

JMW
9th-October-2002, 09:30 PM
Gus you dissapoint me.

With a thread title like X-Rated Teachers I expected a plug for the latest Ceroc Calendar (tastefully done of course - although personally I'd be selective of which instructors you'd allow on there); a plea for a whip round for your local rival - so she can buy the other half of her dress; or a discussion on how to teach sleazy moves to the masses.

Seriously drops, seducers etc can be fun (given the right partner/music/space etc.). If those irresponsible experienced dancers do do those moves at your classes (albeit properly, safely and with courtesy to other dancers, after having had all the appropriate training at your specialist workshops), you can bet your bottom dollar the newer dancers are going to want to do them too. Human nature. Having seen the new Audi RS6 I want one. Potential danger to other road users in me having such a car would not be much of a consideration if I could afford one (after all I know what I'm doing). Same sort of mental attitude as newish dancers with drops etc. He can do it - it doesn't look difficult - it looks great - let's give it a go.

JW.
_______________________
"Sometimes the world is a valley of heartaches and tears. And in the hustle and bustle no sunshine appears..."

David Franklin
9th-October-2002, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by Gus


Dave, CTA teachers are taught lifts ... but for private use only ... and I've got to say if I hadn't been trained in aerials by Andy and Rena I still wouldn't be able to do them correctly. CTA has it strengths ... teaching lifts is not one of them ... thats why I don't think there is any lift that a Ceroc teacher can teach from stage.

The star jump used to get taught a few times a year in London. Not that many people did it any better than dreadfully. [Of course, in the old Central club where the far end had a low ceiling, this was probably a good thing!].

Of course, the first move jump isn't particularly difficult - but whenever it gets taught, the freestyle that evening is, um..., interesting, as you try to avoid incoming fire!


The only people I would ever recommend for lifts is Andy and Rena ... but even they point out just how dangerous it is.

As David will undoubtably be too modest to say so, I'll just say that his and Lily's workshop at Camber was the best lifts class I've ever been to. Especially if you really mean lifts rather than airsteps.

The reality is that while there are no real 'experts' in this field ... just self taught independants, what chace does the average punter have of getting safe training.

Unfortunately, there's a real tendency for moves to be taught by "chinese whispers" as well. In other words, someone sees a move at a workshop, remembers (hopefully) 80% of what he was told, but starts teaching it anyway. Repeat for a few generations, and you either have a really good new move, or a lawsuit...

On the perspective front - I know of many more people injured from spins than from dips, drops and aerials.

Dave

Franck
10th-October-2002, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by Gus
Contentious Subject No. 34a Well yes :really: I see you've been busy again... It would be nice (for a change) to check the forum and find a normal thread, you know, with no big argument, just everyone sharing good clean fun stuff :nice:
Somebody wake me I think I'm dreaming :wink: Anyway back to the topic at hand.
Originally posted by Gus
One of my common bugbears about 'cowboy' instructors has been their predeliction with drops and seducers ...First of all on a personal note, I don't like drops / air moves / lifts... I don't even like seducers that much! :really:
However, as JMW says, people will try and do them regardless, and usually without proper training / practise or warm up, and on a crowded dance floor :what: :really: :sad:
As a result, my view is that if you can't stop them, train them!
So, we teach a few basic drops or lifts regularly at classes. Nothing too fancy or dangerous, but it does give us (teachers) the opportunity to bring up all the safety aspects of doing those moves. In particular, warning the women that they do not have to follow the man's lead if he is doing a drop without warning / experience; or indeed for the women not to ever throw themselves into a drop (whether signalled or not :really: )

I believe that by teaching some drops etc, we are making the venues safer for everyone and indeed preventing many potential accidents.

Franck.

P.S. I agree with JMW, the title of this thread was misleading and ultimately disappointing :wink: :devil:

Fox
10th-October-2002, 08:47 AM
X Rated Teachers!!

so when's the pole dancing workshops?

:D

hehehehehe
Fox

Lou
10th-October-2002, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by Franck
P.S. I agree with JMW, the title of this thread was misleading and ultimately disappointing :wink: :devil:

Well, Franck - why not start the ball rolling & post a piccy of yourself? In the manner of the thread title, of course! :wink: :devil:

Franck
10th-October-2002, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by Lou
Well, Franck - why not start the ball rolling & post a piccy of yourself? In the manner of the thread title, of course! :wink: :devil: Well Hmmm :sorry :really: would not want to put people off :sick:
What I meant, :sorry was that the title should be different, rather than start a genuine x-rated thread!

As for pole dancing, I suspect that the experience is fairly similar for women when dancing with men who don't move their feet much (if at all), standing there while the women dance around! :really:
Anyway we've had the Limbo dancing incident already :yum: :devil: (if you have not read this thread, do a search for the words "limbo" and "Filthycute" :D :D :D

Franck.

filthycute
10th-October-2002, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Franck
Anyway we've had the Limbo dancing incident already :yum: :devil: (if you have not read this thread, do a search for the words "limbo" and "Filthycute" :D :D :D

Franck.

Nice one Franck...and here was me thinking everyone had forgotten about this incident!! :what:

Talking of alternative dancing, half of Dundee once thought i was a lap-dancer :really: Thanks to a woman in my work thinking line-dancing and lap-dancing were both the same thing and telling anyone and everyone she knew that i was a "keen lap-dancer" :sick:

BTW...they haven't barred me from Hoagies....have they??? :what:

filthycute x x

JMW
10th-October-2002, 07:53 PM
they haven't barred me from Hoagies....have they???

I seem to remember somebody telling me Hoagies had lost its licence.

JMW
________

PS Not a joke.

Jon
11th-October-2002, 01:29 AM
Only tonight did I have to avoid a couple performing a seducer where the ladys head was at the height of my knee. It ruined the move I was doing with my partner as I had to take emergency avoiding action, and this was on a crowded dance floor. People need more sense, prehaps a workshop on spacial awarness would be a good idea!:reallymad

I personally don't like dips, jumps or seducers and never do them unless I know my partner really well. And as for the women who throw themselves in to one even though you haven't led it. Gggggrrrrrrr springs to mind, I'm leading at least I thought I was!. I've had a couple of near misses before and I know one day the lady is going to end up on the floor.

Gus
11th-October-2002, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by Jon
And as for the women who throw themselves in to one even though you haven't led it......I've had a couple of near misses before and I know one day the lady is going to end up on the floor.

In the darker reaches of my mind there's a voice that keeps telling me that the next time the lady decides to do a seducer on her own I'm going to let her .... it might teach her not to do it again. Unfortunately, so far, pure instinct makes me catch them. But one day.....:devil: :devil: :devil:

Emma
11th-October-2002, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by Gus


the next time the lady decides to do a seducer on her own I'm going to let her ....

Oooh, bad man!! :what: :what:

DavidB
11th-October-2002, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Gus
the next time the lady decides to do a seducer on her own I'm going to let her .... ... and nothing should happen. If the lady thinks you are doing a drop or seducer, and you are not used to dancing with each other, then she should still be trying to support her own weight.

This is what you should get taught when doing drops. Or is it another thing that gets forgotten in the desire to get people to look flashy... Even worse, are drops being taught where there is no option but to put the lady's life into the man's hands.

Gus
11th-October-2002, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
... and nothing should happen. .

Yup, thats the theory but this female lemings seem to think that gravity doesn't apply. I've lost count of the number of time you do a move and suddenly the woman os going earthwards .... you ask them why (after to rescue them) and they say something inane like "My partner alwys does a drop after that move" or "I thought you scratching you nose was a signal for a drop":confused:

Not trying to be nasty ... ok, being NASTY I venture that men should stop interfeering with nature. If some women are dumb enough to want to throw themselves backward on the slightest provocation, who are we to get in the way of Darwins Law? Let evolution takes its natural step and let the lemings wipe themselves out thus removing these defective gene bearers from the genetic pool!

....now, if we can just find a way of removing compuslive male droppers and airsteppers from the gene pools then the land of dancing Nirvana may be within grasp :devil: :devil: :devil:

Yeadh ... before you ask .. I DID have a lousy night dancing last night ... does it show?:sad:

Rachel
11th-October-2002, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
... and nothing should happen. If the lady thinks you are doing a drop or seducer, and you are not used to dancing with each other, then she should still be trying to support her own weight. Agreed! While I rather like drops etc at times, I generally never trust anyone else to support all my weight for me. I'll only chose to do potentially life-threatening drops with my partner (as in, boyfriend) ... cos he knows there'll be hell to pay if anything goes wrong (or, at least, he won't get his tea cooked for him that night!).


Originally posted by Gus
....now, if we can just find a way of removing compuslive male droppers and airsteppers from the gene pools then the land of dancing Nirvana may be within grasp
Agreed!!

Gadget
11th-October-2002, 05:16 PM
Just noticed a little bit of irony in this thread; look at the couple in the top left corner of yor browser ;)

Graham
12th-October-2002, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
he knows there'll be hell to pay if anything goes wrong (or, at least, he won't get his tea cooked for him that night!).

Won't get his tea cooked?? :really: Gosh, you must have him right under your thumb! Anyone know any good threatening workshops we can send Rachel to? :wink: Gus - maybe there's another untapped opportunity there? :grin:

Rachel
14th-October-2002, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by Graham


Won't get his tea cooked?? :really: Gosh, you must have him right under your thumb! Anyone know any good threatening workshops we can send Rachel to? :wink: Gus - maybe there's another untapped opportunity there? :grin: Alright, alright ... I can think of worse threats, but none that I'd post to the board! Actually, when I talk about 'cooking', it's not really much loss to him, as my cooking skills only extend as far as pouring boiling water into a pot noodle!

Come to think of it, he did manage to bash my head on the floor on Saturday night. Of course ... I'd forgotten about that ... that's obviously why he was bringing me beans on toast in bed after we got home that night. (As you can see, his cooking is about as good as mine!)

Gus
14th-October-2002, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Graham


Won't get his tea cooked?? :really: Gosh, you must have him right under your thumb! Anyone know any good threatening workshops we can send Rachel to? :wink: Gus - maybe there's another untapped opportunity there? :grin:

I dunno .... as a sad single guy witholding of feeding rights seems nearly as threatening as the witholding of other rights!

Mind you, Marc's a real nice guy ... can't imagine him dropping Rachel on purpose .... unless he didn't get his tea of course:really:

Dancing Veela
14th-October-2002, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
... and nothing should happen. If the lady thinks you are doing a drop or seducer, and you are not used to dancing with each other, then she should still be trying to support her own weight.
.

Now David I thought you were going to say .....If the lady thinks you are doing a drop or seducer (and you aren't) then maybe you aren't leading some of your moves properly??????

As for supporting her own weight - some of the moves are difficult to support your own weight - like the Ballroom drop (actually must try that out and see).

Think also of some of the moves where the woman has no choice - I've known some men have me upside down over hip with both legs in the air before I even knew it (last week being the last time - with a guy I would never trust to hold me).

And Gus - give us women a break - we get so used to being told to let the man lead that sometimes we do switch off and just do what comes naturally - even when I'm not doing Ceroc these days, if a man is holding my hand and then raises it - I will just turn under it - so if a woman has switched off and her usual partner does do a seducer at a particular time - and that's not what you meant - PLEASE don't let her fall - we all make mistakes - I'm sure even you do Oh Great One!!!!!!!

Gus
14th-October-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Dancing Veela

Think also of some of the moves where the woman has no choice - I've known some men have me upside down over hip with both legs in the air before I even knew it (last week being the last time - with a guy I would never trust to hold me).

Fair comment ... if I guy wants to get you into a half-loop ... ther is very little that you can do about it at the time, though right knee to his groin afterwards may encourage him not to do it again.



And Gus - give us women a break - we get so used to being told to let the man lead that sometimes we do switch off ..... - PLEASE don't let her fall - we all make mistakes - I'm sure even you do Oh Great One!!!!!!!

Man learns from his mistakes ... on that basis I must have learnt a lot ... one of them is I'm reponsible for keeping my head off the floor and if any woman has got any sense she will do the same. Sorry if you feel I'm coming on high and mighty but I've just ran a drops workshop at the weekend and after labouring the safety elements one woman STILL managed to throw herslef backwards when the guy wasn't ready ... WHY? I just don't buy the .... "we switch off" ... there has to be an element of common sense. The man is responsible for his action and yours ... fine, but if you are determined to follow a lead that isn't there then its YOUR FAULT!

Of course the guy isn't going to let you fall to the floor but loads of mates (and myself) have pulled backs rescuing women doing a leming impersonation. Having a woman do a drop just because you rest your hand on her shoulder can scarecly be put down to a 'bad lead'!

Come on ... us guys have got a hard enough time of it as it is ... if you are going to do drops ... plesae make sure you've been on a course first ... otherwise, if in doubt, don't go down!:wink:

Dancing Veela
14th-October-2002, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Gus

Man learns from his mistakes ... on that basis I must have learnt a lot ...
Yes and it took me a while to learn that I shouldn't be so enthusiastic when I'm going into a drop - I do take it easy now - but it did take a wee while to learn to lower myself into a drop rather than throw myself into it (I do rather throw myself into my dancing all together!!!!!)




Originally posted by Gus

Come on ... us guys have got a hard enough time of it as it is ... if you are going to do drops ... plesae make sure you've been on a course first ... otherwise, if in doubt, don't go down!:wink:

No worries there Gus - I would always make sure he was safe before going down!!!!!:what:

Rachel
15th-October-2002, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by Dancing Veela
No worries there Gus - I would always make sure he was safe before going down!!!!!:what: Now I see why this thread is x-rated!!

Gadget
15th-October-2002, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by Rachel
Now I see why this thread is x-rated!!
It's all these cunning linguists; I've been told that women not only like men to be good at dancing, but have a clever toung :yum:

:devil: :innocent:

DavidB
15th-October-2002, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by Dancing Veela
Now David I thought you were going to say .....If the lady thinks you are doing a drop or seducer (and you aren't) then maybe you aren't leading some of your moves properly??????If the only way you can lead a drop is by a signal, then you should really consider if it is worth the risk (Does she know the signal? Can it mean anything else? Did you just accidently do a signal that you've never seen before, but she knows?) If you physically lead a drop, it tends to look like you are wrestling with your partner.

And do drops look good enough to risk injuring your partner, or yourself, or annoying everyone dancing near you? If I'm watching people dancing, and I see a drop merchant, I just ignore them. They won't do anything to impress me.

That's why I only do drops, seducers and aerials in routines - they aren't worth all the risks.

David

Graham
15th-October-2002, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by DavidB
Does she know the signal? Can it mean anything else? Did you just accidently do a signal that you've never seen before, but she knows?
Completely agree. As someone who doesn't do drops (because I haven't been taught them properly, and wouldn't consider it safe), I think that the responsibility for following a signal into a drop has to be at least shared - unless the lady can guarantee that she knows every single signal in modern jive, and the signal she has just seen couldn't possibly be anything else (a similar signal meaning something else, a corruption of a different signal, an accidental movement, or the guy scratching himself) then she would be foolhardy to launch herself. In this event, the worst that could happen is that the guy asks why she didn't do the drop as signalled.

From my observation, drop merchants regularly get "refusals" from their partner in mid-dance (as they do it with everyone, even beginners who couldn't possibly know the signal), so I imagine they would be used to it and not get upset.

It hasn't happened recently, but there have certainly been a couple of instances in the past where a lady has tried to dive into a drop move I didn't even know. :what: Luckily I have never got as far as having to do the back-breaking lunge to save them.

All in all, I think drops, etc. are best saved for regular partners.

Gus
15th-October-2002, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Graham

Completely agree. As someone who doesn't do drops (because I haven't been taught them properly......All in all, I think drops, etc. are best saved for regular partners.

Graham, sage words indeed. Wish more dancers would pay such heed. I must admit, I'm still at a loss as to why some woman love drops ... if they want a thrill wouldn't a rollercoaster be a more effective method?

Could one of the ladies explain the fascination?

filthycute
15th-October-2002, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Gus


if they want a thrill wouldn't a rollercoaster be a more effective method?

Could one of the ladies explain the fascination?

Well you see they don't normally provide rollercoasters at ceroc venues hence the reason most women then have to opt for going down to put a little excitment into their night :wink:

filthycute x x

Dreadful Scathe
15th-October-2002, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by filthycute

hence the reason most women then have to opt for going down to put a little excitment into their night :wink:



cough!

Bill
15th-October-2002, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Dancing Veela

Yes and it took me a while to learn that I shouldn't be so enthusiastic when I'm going into a drop - I do take it easy now - but it did take a wee while to learn to lower myself into a drop rather than throw myself into it (I do rather throw myself into my dancing all together!!!!!)


Yes, I am aware of that Veela :D


No worries there Gus - I would always make sure he was safe before going down!!!!!:what:


mmmmmmmmmm..........:wink: :really: I'm speechless..............

well not quite ! We were at a wonderful weekend at Pitlochry and Kat and Dave taught a dips and drops workshop and as Gus said, did all the right things, going over the safety aspects and at least in the workshop all the women seemed to be taking their time.

Some of us stayed with our partners during the class feeling it was perhaps safer to do so until we mastered the moves. Some nice drops as well. But I can agree with Veela on the point of being caught unawares by the men. I've seen some men whip a woman into a drop before she knew what had happened. It's great to have the element of surprise for some moves so the women don't lead but surely with drops the men must ensure there is space to do it safely and that the woman is likely to enjoy the experience. :mad: :eek:

I know I don't like the woman to go down unless I'm ready for it.:innocent:

Dancing Veela
15th-October-2002, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by bill foreman



mmmmmmmmmm..........:wink: :really: I'm speechless..............


Bill - sort out your quoting will you ???????? :rolleyes: I'm not sure whether you meant you were well aware of me throwing myself into drops when you weren't ready - which may explain why you dropped me on my head so often :wink: - or whether I am enthusiastic with my dancing !!!!!!!



Originally posted by bill foreman
But I can agree with Veela


At LAST someone agreeing with SOMETHING I said - yippee!!!!


Originally posted by bill foreman

I know I don't like the woman to go down unless I'm ready for it.:innocent:

I thought you were always ready for it???

Bill
15th-October-2002, 01:56 PM
Veela.............are you actually working today ??????

You seem to be very active ............ nothing else to do :confused: :grin:

I'm struggling to catch up with all the replies :rolleyes: in between working and having cups of tea :p

and you know me and technology..............being able to quote at all is quite an achievement:sick:

Look forward to dropping youon your head on Sunday then:cheers:

Dancing Veela
15th-October-2002, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by bill foreman
Veela.............are you actually working today ??????

You seem to be very active ............ nothing else to do :confused: :grin:

I'm struggling to catch up with all the replies :rolleyes: in between working and having cups of tea :p

and you know me and technology..............being able to quote at all is quite an achievement:sick:

Look forward to dropping youon your head on Sunday then:cheers:

Yes meant to be working and so much to do - but this is a bit addictive!!!!!!!!

Please try to be careful with my head on Sunday - it's got to last until midnight - and then I'll turn back to a pumpkin - just in time for Halloween!!!!

Franck
15th-October-2002, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Graham
I think that the responsibility for following a signal into a drop has to be at least shared - unless the lady can guarantee that she knows every single signal in modern jive, and the signal she has just seen couldn't possibly be anything else (a similar signal meaning something else, a corruption of a different signal, an accidental movement, or the guy scratching himself) then she would be foolhardy to launch herself. In this event, the worst that could happen is that the guy asks why she didn't do the drop as signalled.This is one of the assumptions that I have spent the last few years trying to dispel.
No drops or air moves should be done following a signal, women should not go "down" following a signal, and men should not expect them to! :reallymad
Any drop or dip, should be led by the man, ie women should feel an active pull (or push) downwards. Of course there are signals, and these do help in preparing the move, but alone, they should never be sufficient to do the move.

Franck.

Tiggerbabe
16th-October-2002, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by Franck


Franck.



You're back again - where you been hiding?

Any chance of a dance on Saturday and/or Sunday?
:nice: