Freedom of Refusal???

[Pink Lady]

Sorry, but I really have to get this off my chest! I know it's the unwritten law never to refuse a dance, but last night my cup of patience and compassion very nearly ran out and I was a hair's breadth away from walking off the dance floor! :mad: I was "dancing" with someone and found myself thinking: "I pay to come here and enjoy dancing, so why am I enduring this abject torture?"

If there is someone who you consistantly hate dancing with - have NEVER enjoyed a single dance with and dread being asked for a dance with, can't you say NO? :blush: I'm NOT talking about beginners here who, of course, get cut plenty of slack and heaps of encouragement :nice: , and who I always make an effort to smile at and generally be nice. (After all I'm a nice person!) :flower:

I don't claim to be the worlds best dancer, but I like to think I'm at least competant :what: and entitled to enjoy dancing when I go to dance.
I know this will probably open the floodgates for a torrent of abuse and folk crying "What a hard hearted ****". So I would like to know if there is anyone else out there who thinks along the same lines?? (Please :flower: )

[Trish]

Absolutely!!!

There's one guy I know who is very tall and has arms like a chimpanzee - every time I've ever danced with him he has pulled me very nearly off the floor (I am nowhere near as tall as he is). He also had a tendancy to tread on your toes or kick you (his legs are as out of control as his arms). I have never refused a dance with him but will not ask him (I do ask a lot of the guys), and he asked me once why I didn't - so I told him! The last twice I danced with him I said "I'll dance with you as long as you don't pull my arms out of their sockets... etc" - neadless to say he did do this and I spend the dance very pointedly saying "ouch" and "ow" to get the point over. He has never asked me since - hooray!!!!

I think he got the point, unfortunately he's been dancing a long time and is still torturing a lot of my female friends - if it was up to me he'd be sent to private lessons or something until he learns not to do these things!!!

So anyway - I think if anything I'm even more heartless than you are! IMHO if you've got good reasons for not dancing with someone: make them known, ask the guy to change and if he won't/can't there's your reason for not dancing with him.

[Flash]

I know it's the unwritten law never to refuse a dance

It does appear so....


If there is someone who you consistantly hate dancing with - have NEVER enjoyed a single dance with and dread being asked for a dance with, can't you say NO? :blush:

I think you can? I do but as there are not many people I can say the above about it doesn't happen often.
At my previous venue I did actually walk off the floor once in the casbah. An elderly non-gentleman was whirling me around with great force, hurting my wrists (he didn't use a hand to hand grip often). I as you say, did not pay for that so I walked away.

[Pink Lady]

Thanks Trish - nice to know I have at least one ally! :nice:
Good on you for speaking up for yourself :worthy:
Cheers
L

[Gadget]

You're not alone; there was another thread a while ago that said basically it's polite to accept, but there are loads of (legitemate) reasons to say no - including simply that you don't want to dance with that person.

Dance Refusals (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2871)
Nice ways to say get lost (http://whttp://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1641)
but do a search for "dance refusal" and you will pick up more.

[jezza]

I was "dancing" with someone and found myself thinking: "I pay to come here and enjoy dancing, so why am I enduring this abject torture?"

What exactly was the problem, with your dance partner. You haven`t been
to specific. E.G bad breath, tight hand hold, off the beat, dangerous drops.

Men need to know where they are going wrong.

[Pink Lady]

Thanks Gadget, I don't feel so bad now. So it's OK for me to politely say no thank you?, and I just need to toughen up a bit maybe? (Not that I would ever refuse a dance with you, mind)
By the way, where have you been hiding? Haven't seen you at dancing for aaaaages.

L

[Pink Lady]

What exactly was the problem, with your dance partner. You haven`t been
to specific. E.G bad breath, tight hand hold, off the beat, dangerous drops.

Men need to know where they are going wrong.


Ok, are you ready for this?:
A) He smells bad :eek:
B) He doesn't lead and makes strange disconnected type of improvisations that leave you wondering what on earth he's doing. :sick:
C) He doesn't look at you which makes you wonder why you are there at all and is a bit disconcerting because as a follower you have to watch your partner to see what he's doing next.

So as you can see, loading all this on the poor guy at one time would be enough to give him a major ego deflation. Any suggestions? Thanks :flower:

[Dance Demon]

I think you have to weigh things out here. As you have correctly stated, you pay your money to come along & enjoy dancing. You therefore have the right to refuse to dance with someone that you do not like dancing with. The law on refusing is, as you have said an unwritten one. If this guy is a fairly isolated case, then you need not worry. As Gadget says, there are other threads which have discussed how to refuse, and ways of tactfully avoiding people. I think there would only be a problem if you were refusing lots of people ( which I would doubt would ever be the case)....and then you might get the tag of being too fussy, or even a hotshot...( think you need black & white shoes for that though.. :wink: )............One woman who sometimes dances at the venues I go to is a bit like this, and only dances with guys that she thinks are good dancers, and it doesn't appear to concern her when she turns guys down. Upshot is that she doesn't get a lot of dances, and ends up sitting out a lot.....
However, I think if you turn this guy down a few times he will eventually stop asking you to dance, and.....problem solved. :nice:

[ChrisA]

Ok, are you ready for this?:
A) He smells bad :eek:
B) He doesn't lead and makes (snip)
C) He doesn't look at you (snip)

So as you can see, loading all this on the poor guy at one time would be enough to give him a major ego deflation. Any suggestions? Thanks :flower:

The way I see it is that if a guy asks a girl to dance and she graciously accepts, there is an implicit contract...

... he doesn't stink
... he doesn't yank
... he doesn't grope, grind or perv at you in any way you don't want.

Any breach of any of these, and IMHO you are entirely within your rights to decline a dance. Whether or not you do it in a way that gives him any insight into why you're declining is entirely up to you, and whether you want to give him information that will help him improve.

You are there to enjoy yourself, and although cutting beginners and newbies a little slack is nice, persistent offences and/or an absence of consideration and improvement in behaviour are not acceptable, and there should be no stigma whatsoever associated with declining in those situations.

Modern Jive should cause no pain - whether to the senses or to the joints. And if it feels like abject torture, well that sounds like pain to me :D

So decline away, I say, and if you can bring yourself to tell him why, I say go for it. If he's basically a decent bloke he'll feel bad but try to change. If he's not, I don't see why you should worry too much about offending him.

Good luck,

Chris

PS All this applies just as much the other way round, too, IMHO. It's just that girls that stink are extremely rare, guys are usually stronger so can cope with the ladies that yank more easily (though long term it's still bad news) and it's mostly the guys doing the perving. :tears:

[Pink Lady]

Chris & Dance Demon - you are obviously both gents and I hope to have to good fortune to dance with you one fine day. I feel a lot better about refusing this guy in future and hasten to add he is the person I have ever considered refusing a dance with - I definitely don't consider myself a hot-shot! (Don't have the black & white shoes, although I do aspire to be worthy of them one day!)

Thanks all for your words of encouragement! :hug:

[Gadget]

By the way, where have you been hiding? Haven't seen you at dancing for aaaaages.
Sort of forced absence - been dancing on Wednesdays at Jumping Jacks for a while. Don't worry - I will be back; save me a dance :wink:

And point him out next time & I'll have a word in his shell-like. :D :devil:

[Trish]

Ok, are you ready for this?:
A) He smells bad :eek:
B) He doesn't lead and makes strange disconnected type of improvisations that leave you wondering what on earth he's doing. :sick:
C) He doesn't look at you which makes you wonder why you are there at all and is a bit disconcerting because as a follower you have to watch your partner to see what he's doing next.

So as you can see, loading all this on the poor guy at one time would be enough to give him a major ego deflation. Any suggestions? Thanks :flower:

Personally I'd tell him some of the above - perhaps tell him that you find his lead a unorthodox or that he smells :sick: (I'd say politely suggest he could do with some better deodorant is a better way of handling that one - I've even offered some of mine to guys - some of them have taken me up on the idea!). I wouldn't tell him all of that though as he'd probably just get mad at you! Also if for example you tell him his lead is bad and next time it improves you can then tell him he smells. If that then improves you might have the makings of an ok dancer! The looking at you is probably the easiest of the three as it sometimes works if you make a joke out of that one. Good luck with it anyway - he sounds like a strange one! :eek:

Just in case this goes a bit weird and anyone wonders why, I'm trying out these smilies as I haven't got the hang of this posting lark completely yet - hope it works!

[DianaS]

Personally I'd tell him some of the above - perhaps tell him that you find his lead a unorthodox or that he smells :sick: (I'd say politely suggest he could do with some better deodorant is a better way of handling that one - I've even offered some of mine to guys - some of them have taken me up on the idea!). I wouldn't tell him all of that though as he'd probably just get mad at you! Also if for example you tell him his lead is bad and next time it improves you can then tell him he smells. If that then improves you might have the makings of an ok dancer! The looking at you is probably the easiest of the three as it sometimes works if you make a joke out of that one. Good luck with it anyway - he sounds like a strange one! :eek:

Just in case this goes a bit weird and anyone wonders why, I'm trying out these smilies as I haven't got the hang of this posting lark completely yet - hope it works!

hi trish
I think that I agree with you here, (and I do like the smilies they are really cool), sometimes its really helpful if people do tell you how you can be better to dance with rather than just avoid you. I asked a guy to dance last night who stopped me mid dance and told me what he how he wanted me to dance
then he trained me for three dances before handing me on to his daughter who continued to put me through my paces. I was knackered by the time they had finished with me!

At the end of the night I was saying goodbye and he suggested that every time I saw him I should ask him to dance. I felt that he'd taken the time to show me how he wanted me to dance with him and he'd seen that I'd responded. I may have felt slightly humiliated if he'd taken my dancing to pieces, told me how to improve and then walked off.

So perhaps if we do go down the path of telling people how to improve we may like to consider whether we want to stick around to see it happen (which feels kinda nice to me), or whether we are just going to criticise and leave. In which case is what we are saying valid if we still wouldn't want to dance with them more if they changed?

:) :nice: ;)
Cool smiles eh?

[Andy McGregor]

I've been in this position a couple of times.

After much thought and soul searcing I came to the conclusion that I shouldn't have to dance with a woman who really annoys or repulses me.

So, after being nice and putting up with it for ages I have, on one occasion, asked a woman not to ask me to dance again.

Thinking back, it was so easy, I just danced with her for a track and then said 'I feel really uncomfortable dancing with you, could you please stop asking me to dance' - although, at the time, I felt horrible:tears:

And she didn't ever ask me again - problem solved.

The other time my wife, Sue, unknowingly solved the problem for me - thank goodness.

So, I agree, don't dance with people who you really, really, really, don't want to. But, do dance with everyone else - including me:flower:

[TheTramp]

I've been saying this for ages.

I don't agree with any 'unwritten rules' that say you have to dance with anyone who asks you.

You turn up to dancing. You pay your money. Why should you dance with anyone that you don't want to dance with? I don't even see that you necessarily have to have a "reason".

I use the "2 rejects" rule myself..... If I ask someone, and she says no, then I won't ask her again that night. Next time I see her, I'll ask her, and if she says no, then I'll come to the conclusion that she doesn't really want to dance with me, so I won't bother asking her again.

This is of course cancelled out if she then comes back to me and asks me to dance.

Trampy

[Andy McGregor]

This is of course cancelled out if she then comes back to me and asks me to dance.

I usually try to encourage them to ask me later by telling them that they can ask me later if they change their mind - in my mind this is a offered olive branch:flower:

But, like Trampy, I won't humiliate myself further by giving a woman the chance to turn me down a 3rd time:tears:

[philsmove]

I visited a new venue and managed to get rejected by 5 ladies in a row :tears: :tears: :tears: :tears: :tears:

You did not need to remind me to smile when the 6th said yes :grin:

[Daisy Chain]

"I pay to come here and enjoy dancing, so why am I enduring this abject torture?"


If there is someone who you consistantly hate dancing with - have NEVER enjoyed a single dance with and dread being asked for a dance with, can't you say NO? :


There was one man who made my flesh crawl because he used to hold my hand at unnecessary moments (eg during the lesson) and rub it with his thumb. Yuck! Eventually, I cured him by snatching my hand away and snapping "Do you have to do that? It gives me the creeps" He's never asked me to dance since then. Result! :whistle:

Daisy

(A fussy little flower)

[Kay]

I know the guy in question Pink Lady and 'dancing' with him is not a pleasant experience!!! I'm lucky I suppose as he doesn't usually ask me to dance, but if I see him heading in my direction, I'll ask someone else closeby to dance so that I don't have to dance with him as I don't like to refuse. The only problem is during the classes when you rotate round - you have no option but to dance with him if you end up opposite to him, but at least it isn't for long! Perhaps up girls should gang up on him? - what do you think?

[ChrisA]

Perhaps up girls should gang up on him? - what do you think?
I'd be inclined to suggest, just be straight with him, and others like him.

If all that ever happens is that people see him coming and avoid him, how will he know that people don't like dancing with him? Some poor girl will end up not being quick enough to avoid him, will dance with him (and hate it) with that fixed grin that the creepy ones never recognise for what it is, and the status quo will be maintained.

If the guy is basically nice but weird, then he will try to change if he gets some honest feedback.

If he isn't, and creeps everyone out, it would be better for all IMHO for people not to dance with him, tell him why, and for him eventually to stop coming back.

Harsh? Maybe, but I don't believe that anyone should be able to enjoy themselves at lots of others' expense.

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

Perhaps up girls should gang up on him?

I like the idea of the girls ganging up on me - what do I have to do? :whistle:

[Pink Lady]

I know the guy in question Pink Lady and 'dancing' with him is not a pleasant experience!!! I'm lucky I suppose as he doesn't usually ask me to dance, but if I see him heading in my direction, I'll ask someone else closeby to dance so that I don't have to dance with him as I don't like to refuse. The only problem is during the classes when you rotate round - you have no option but to dance with him if you end up opposite to him, but at least it isn't for long! Perhaps up girls should gang up on him? - what do you think?

Hi Kay
Yes I know you know who it is because I remember you being at the receiving end of my initial rant! I like the idea of a show of solidarity amongst the ladies. We don't necessarily have to "gang up on him" but maybe if we all "boycotted" him it might work :devil: . Alternatively, how would "someone in charge", i.e. Franck, Lisa, Lorna feel about voicing our combined gripes to him??? :what:

Cheers
L

[Sheepman]

I'd be inclined to suggest, just be straight with him, and others like him.

If all that ever happens is that people see him coming and avoid him, how will he know that people don't like dancing with him? Some poor girl will end up not being quick enough to avoid him, will dance with him (and hate it) with that fixed grin that the creepy ones never recognise for what it is, and the status quo will be maintained.

Harsh? Maybe, but I don't believe that anyone should be able to enjoy themselves at lots of others' expense. In essence I would agree with this, it's all common sense, but in practice, to go up to someone you hardly know, and effectively say "I never want to dance with you again" has to be REALLY hard to do (even for Andy :wink: ) I don't think I could do it.

There are only 2 or 3 women I've come across that I've felt were very creepy, and though I would not object to one dance, there would be the "wounded puppy" expression after this, and the insistence that we carry on. These women seem to have all dissapeared from the scene :grin:
I have had one lady say to me "Is your wife jealous?" This was after several occasions when Mrs Sheepy would "rescue" me from enduring that 3rd or 4th dance!

Refusing an individual dance is quite reasonable IMO, if someone doesn't get the idea after 2 rejections, (and some of us aren't good at remembering how often we've been rejected :tears: ) and you want to make it more permanent but can't face doing it yourself, why not get a friend to talk to that person. Difficult though it was, I have spoken to a miscreant in this way, and it certainly solved the problem. In fact as he no longer appears at the venues I go to, it has solved the problem for everyone else too!

Greg

[Zebra Woman]

:yeah: Yes I think it's a good idea to work together.

I said no to a creepy guy last week, only to find my friend completely copped it. I felt pleased for myself to get through a night without dancing with him, but also guilty 'cos he had loads more with her, and kept her for conversation too. :tears: :angry:

So next time we're all going to be working on her 'No'. :eek:

[ChrisA]

In essence I would agree with this, it's all common sense, but in practice, to go up to someone you hardly know, and effectively say "I never want to dance with you again" has to be REALLY hard to do (even for Andy :wink: ) I don't think I could do it.

I wasn't suggesting you have to go that far - though in extremis, it's obviously a good idea.

Just that if you need to refuse because he stinks, yanks or pervs (or wipes, now :eek: ), tell him why.

That gives him the opportunity to reform, and as I've said - nice guys will make the effort to do so. The not-nice guys won't - but they're not the people, IMHO, whose feelings need to be spared.

Just don't dance with them though, with that fixed "I'd going to get through these three minutes somehow" grin. Because they don't perceive it as such, and get the opposite of the reinforcement you'd like.

Chris

[Zebra Woman]

I can see how a stinker or yanker might change, but when the guy makes me feel uncomfortable.....I feel that is a permanent state I'm afraid, because it's not just a physical thing it's much worse it's a mental thing.

A perv would have completely ignored loads and loads of negative body language from me over a period of weeks, deliberately :angry: :angry: :confused: :confused:

If I was brave I would tell him I don't want to dance with him anymore because he makes me feel uncomfortable. So he would know why, but I wouldn't be interested in his re-habilitation, sorry. :blush:

Is there such a thing as a reformed pervert? :confused:

[ChrisA]

Is there such a thing as a reformed pervert? :confused:

I believe not.

I have seen evidence of pervs modifying their behaviour after confrontations of one kind or another, but witnessed them continuing to scope out the girls they wanted to dance with, with the same leery look.

I wasn't really including these in my mental list of candidates for rehab - more the nice-but-dim ones that hold awkwardly without knowing what they're doing.

We have no disagreement here, I'm quite sure :flower:

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

A perv would have completely ignored loads and loads of negative body language from me over a period of weeks, deliberately :angry: :angry: :confused: :confused:

As opposed to your normal 'come hither' look it must be quite a contrast :what:

[Zebra Woman]

As opposed to your normal 'come hither' look it must be quite a contrast :what:

Believe me it is! I'll give you a demo of the 'other', when we next dance.

Maybe you could give me some tips? :what:

[Zebra Woman]

I wasn't really including these in my mental list of candidates for rehab - more the nice-but-dim ones that hold awkwardly without knowing what they're doing.

We have no disagreement here, I'm quite sure :flower:
Chris

I have never had a problem with nice-but-dim because they only need a small gesture or word to change, completely different.

So - no disagreement at all. :flower:

[Gadget]

Alternatively, how would "someone in charge", i.e. Franck, Lisa, Lorna feel about voicing our combined gripes to him??? :what: I would ask Lisa to have a dance with him and "offer some advice". (I would actually say Lorna would be better, but not in her current state)

[Gordon J Pownall]

I would ask Lisa to have a dance with him and "offer some advice". (I would actually say Lorna would be better, but not in her current state)Always a good idea to talk to the teach or the venue manager.....I've had a few requests to address 'not so nice dancers' in varied forms and usually a quiet word can make a difference but sometimes diplomacy doesn;t always work....
Remember that all punters at a dance have paid their money to enjoy the night and shouldn't have to tolerate inappropriate or offensive or even downright rude / ignorant 'others'....

[Andy McGregor]

Believe me it is! I'll give you a demo of the 'other', when we next dance.

Maybe you could give me some tips? :what:

I've usually got the sensitivity on my sensor turned up high, thanks for the warning otherwise I'm not sure I'd survive :eek:

[Tiggerbabe]

I visited a new venue and managed to get rejected by 5 ladies in a row :tears: :tears: :tears: :tears: :tears:

You have got to be joking right ? :eek: Come to Scotland, where the lovely Linda and I will make sure you're dancing all night :kiss: :hug:

[Gordon J Pownall]

I visited a new venue and managed to get rejected by 5 ladies in a row :tears: :tears: :tears: :tears: :tears:


You coudl always ask Andy McG or me for a dance - we'd never turn you down....

...we'd even let you lead.... :flower:

[Andy McGregor]

You coudl always ask Andy McG or me for a dance - we'd never turn you down....

...we'd even let you lead.... :flower:

Gordy and I would even do double trouble with you :flower:

I'll bet these 5 women the same ones who haven't asked RobC on a date :whistle:

[Gordon J Pownall]

Gordy and I would even do double trouble with you :flower:
...and trouble it would be.....but great fun... :really:

[Trish]

hi trish

So perhaps if we do go down the path of telling people how to improve we may like to consider whether we want to stick around to see it happen (which feels kinda nice to me), or whether we are just going to criticise and leave. In which case is what we are saying valid if we still wouldn't want to dance with them more if they changed?


Yes, I like that idea Dianas, that's very thoughtful of you. I think sometimes I don't stick around enough really to see if people have improved. Especially when I'm taxi dancing. If I'm then not on the rota for a few weeks I'll not dance with someone and they'll stop wearing their sticker, so I'll sort of forget about them. I'll have to think about that next time.

[Trish]

Is there such a thing as a reformed pervert? :confused:

Yes sort of!!! There's a guy I know who would always make me feel uncomfortable. He'd stare at me in a creepy fashion, and gives me complements in a slightly letchy way. He is however a really good dancer. So I told him he creeped me out by staring at me and made me feel uncomfortable (I am quite a forthright person, and just thought "what's the worst that can happen?!"). The next few times I saw him he questioned me about this and refused to look at me at all, but after persevering I now find he doesn't do the creepy thing any more, isn't half so intense and I tend to have a laugh with him, so he is really nice to dance with :nice: . It took a bit of perseverance, and I had to ask him to dance a few times so he felt I did want to dance with him. Also he's a bit strange, but not someone that the thought of dancing with actually made my skin crawl (I have met one of those!), so I thought he was worth trying to reform! I think he's someone who in a way is a bit shy, but also a bit of a flirt, so that comes out the wrong way.

So girls if the guy is slightly creepy, but a good dancer I'd tell him! What's the worst that can happen?!

[johnthehappyguy]

I am always glad to dance at any MJ venue, and consider it the gentlemanly thing to accept any invitation to dance.

This changed last night when I had a night off, and went to a Ceilidh.

It was chronic, I saw one woman getting thrown/spun into a security barrier.

A young lady asked me to dance, and for the first time ever, I refused. Having observed her wild antics earlier in the evening, dancing with her would have been more of a liability than a pleasure.

When I gave my reason , she replied by saying she could dance well :sick:

Enough ranting,

I compared that night to Ceroc :grin: , where even the clumsiest of beginners are trying to do their best and dance with consideration.

Chalk and Cheese.

MJ, way to go :clap: