Dancing as a man

[DianaS]

OMG!
Help I was asked to dance by a woman last night and found it really difficult. I didn't want to let her down as she was new but it was really tricky. I have been dancing as a man for a few weeks in the beginners lessons and can do the lessons but when it goes to freestyle the moves fly out of my head.
Have other woman become bi-lingual and how did they cope with it?
and is it a good thing in any case?

The venue is short of guys and the guys are all new, so my skills aren't out of line with other guys, it just feels so strange!

Advice welcome even if it is just, don't go there!
Thanks Di

PS she was really nice and it didn't notice when I did all the spacing give me a moment to think routines! I just felt so odd and don't know if I want to dance with other women, or as a man, other than just helpiong out when numbers are short

[Minnie M]

I always lead in the beginner classes in both MJ & WCS - which I find quite rewarding as I can offer that little extra, like tips for the follower that helped me when I first started.

However, I do feel very very odd when a woman asks me to dance :whistle: I actually don't like dancing with another woman very much (unless it's HevMate who leads better than most men) :worthy: Boozey Bird is another great lead :worthy:

NB: Would like to change the name of this thread :confused: Dancing like a " man " hmmmmm............

[Andy McGregor]

I've danced as a man. It's often easier than dancing as a woman because you know what's coming:wink:

Of course, being a woman is quite hard 'because you have to do everything backwards and in high heels' Ginger Rogers

[Gordon J Pownall]

I've danced as a man. It's often easier than dancing as a woman because you know what's coming:wink:

Of course, being a woman is quite hard 'because you have to do everything backwards and in high heels' Ginger Rogers

Teacher training makes you dance both as a man and a woman - I may not be the best dancer to lead (when I dance as a woman :really: ) but it doesn't half give you an amazing clarity of lead when you have experienced the receiving end.

Ask andy McG - he's been on the end of receiving it a few times :really: :wink: :whistle:

IMHO all men should learn to follow as well as lead :sick: ....it's the law...(well not yet anyway)... :hug:

[latinlover]

I've started to dance as a"follower" every now and then,with a man to lead .
I think it is a good thing for guys to do so they can see how the other half .... jives:rofl:
surley it can only be beneficial and broaden one's awareness of the dance generally?
I must, however, admit to a frisson of sexual identity anxiety once in a while -being 'dropped' by a guy is quite weird when you're a red-blooded heterosexual (got that everyone?):whistle: male
maybe it's different for girls?

[Lou]

I have been dancing as a man for a few weeks in the beginners lessons and can do the lessons but when it goes to freestyle the moves fly out of my head.
Have other woman become bi-lingual and how did they cope with it?
and is it a good thing in any case?
Yup - I'm bi-lingual. In fact I found I'm a better lead than a follower, which is quite soul destroying, to be honest! :sad: It's probably because I hate not being in control.

It's a great way of feeling sympathy for beginner men - as most of them find putting the moves together the most difficult part of starting out. I find that I stick mostly to basic moves when I lead. That way, if I'm not sure what I'm going to do in advance, I have a mental note in my head that if I'm starting in a left to right - maybe do a first move or a change places or in a right to right do a yoyo or hatchback - which gives me time to rack my brains for something a bit more interesting.

I remember I'm a man because I'm using my left hand. I do have problems with gender identity in double handed moves! Oh - and perish any lady who tries sabotage moves whilst I'm leading - I get very confused at that point & forget who I am. :confused:

[Rhythm King]

I follow occasionally, having learned to do it when a taxi dancer. I usually only do it with a couple of lady friends who lead. They also lead other ladies and don't think anything of it. I have also double-troubled with a lady and another guy, where we would all take turns at stealing the lead.
I have danced with other chaps during Lindy classes, generally when they are going round the class and learning to follow. I haven't tended to do it socially though. When I was first learning to Lindy, I had a private lesson, together with another beginner lady, with Frankie Manning :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: . This wasn't an arranged thing, we were practising on our own during a lunch break at an event and Frankie walked in on us and gave us the best part of an hour's personal tuition.
I danced with him, so he could reverse lead me through certain moves, to get the feel of how they should swing! A couple of other Lindy teachers use this technique too.
Being the size of a hephalump as I am, people tend not to drop me and I find the following quite hard work -all that spinning and not anticipating :confused: ! I'm not convinced I'm terribly elegant and unlike certain Mcpeople I don't engage in cross dressing either. :D

[DianaS]

thanks for all your responses! I want to resposnd to all of them but am going dancing, so will be brief. I think it did give me a bit of a turn and put me on the spot. As we aren't supposed to refuse I felt I couldn't, but my heart was racing.

I dunno about it all. I expect that she felt safer dancing with a woman and could ask me whereas maybe asking a guy felt a little ambiguous?

I feel though that its not something I had ever thought I would have to do... god I've just realised that I experienced performance anxiety. Funnily enough I don't care when I dance with a man they lead I follow and just sort of enjoy it. being the guy I felt REALLy responsible....

I hope that I never feel like that again and don't know what I'll say if I'm asked again!

GUYS how do you COPE with it :flower:

[Emma]

I dance occasionally as a lead. I found it very difficult initially to get over the 'worry' of thinking up the next move, but after a while I learned that it was easier if I relaxed and didn't try too hard :)

Nowadays I'm happy to dance the lead in the class (it's a good way to get to know the women, apart from anything), and I quite often take a female friend for a spin, or dance with a beginner woman....I enjoy it, but to be honest I don't get nearly as much pleasure out of leading as I do out of following. I find following more rewarding, for some reason.

I have absolutely no problem being led by a woman, many of my female friends are excellent leads and they are an absolute pleasure to dance with! :grin:

[Nick M]

I'm a better lead than a follower

Tell you what Lou, next time we're in a beginner class together, you lead and I will follow!

[DianaS]

I dance occasionally as a lead. I found it very difficult initially to get over the 'worry' of thinking up the next move, but after a while I learned that it was easier if I relaxed and didn't try too hard :)

:blush:
oopps realise that its called dancing as a lead, rather than dancing as a man. Spose that its less gendered language but me and my mates call it dancing as a man cas we didn't know that it was called dancing the lead.

We also talk in deep voices when we are doing it and do guy type things
its sort of fun :rofl:

[under par]

:blush:
oopps realise that its called dancing as a lead, rather than dancing as a man. Spose that its less gendered language but me and my mates call it dancing as a man cas we didn't know that it was called dancing the lead.

We also talk in deep voices when we are doing it and do guy type things
its sort of fun :rofl:


Scratching and picking ........yeuk so unladylike :blush:

[Gadget]

Just a breif :worthy: to all those who do/can reverse roles - I can't follow. At all. I'm only just getting the hang of leading and following is a completley different skill/mind set.

[Lou]

Tell you what Lou, next time we're in a beginner class together, you lead and I will follow!*lol* Done! So long as you promise not to battle over the lead, otherwise I get far too confused..... :wink:

[under par]

Just a breif :worthy: to all those who do/can reverse roles - I can't follow. At all. I'm only just getting the hang of leading and following is a completley different skill/mind set.

I am going to give following a try soon with a lady lead.

To try and get a better idea of what I am supposed to be doing. :flower:

[Peter]

I am going to give following a try soon with a lady lead. To try and get a better idea of what I am supposed to be doing. :flower:

Me too ... I just need to find a female lead who can cope with a 6'3 (ish) follower ...

[DianaS]

Okay chaps I'm at Daventry this weekend and so if any of you are there and fancy a spin with a girlie doing the guys stuff drop me a private. I do ALL the guy things including beginners moves and have excellent lines that I've picked up while dancing as a woman:-

You stop suddedenly look deeply into the womans eyes and whisper gently in her ear..
Don't you know how to follow?

I also pet your hands, use your hand to scratch my nose and call you my "bird"!

I'd love to feel how it is to dance with a man dancing as a woman so honestly I will behave if you fancy giving it a try...

Any one esle heading to Daventry?


D

[under par]

Me too ... I just need to find a female lead who can cope with a 6'3 (ish) follower ...


Peter , if you think you have problems I have to find someone who can lead a 6'8" ish follower.................I could be waiting a weee while. :wink:

Seriously though :whistle: height won't make any difference if my lead has very long arms. :flower:

[DianaS]

Peter , if you think you have problems I have to find someone who can lead a 6'8" ish follower.................I could be waiting a weee while. :wink:

Seriously though :whistle: height won't make any difference if my lead has very long arms. :flower:
Hey even if your tall you can dance with a shortie. One lady at our venue is really tall (6' at least) but she bobs down really gracefully for a spin :clap:

[Gordon J Pownall]

Hey even if your tall you can dance with a shortie. One lady at our venue is really tall (6' at least) but she bobs down really gracefully for a spin :clap:

Actually.....no....and this is why.....

READ WHY HERE (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=70549#post70549)

:what: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :wink:

[Trish]

Okay chaps I'm at Daventry this weekend and so if any of you are there and fancy a spin with a girlie doing the guys stuff drop me a private. I do ALL the guy things including beginners moves and have excellent lines that I've picked up while dancing as a woman:-

You stop suddedenly look deeply into the womans eyes and whisper gently in her ear..
Don't you know how to follow?

I also pet your hands, use your hand to scratch my nose and call you my "bird"!

I'd love to feel how it is to dance with a man dancing as a woman so honestly I will behave if you fancy giving it a try...

Any one esle heading to Daventry?


D
I wouldn't recommend it! No offence guys but as a woman who has lead men quite frequently, the majority of them are fairly hopeless! You will find that unless you're immensely strong they will end up trying to pull your arms out of your sockets or decide half way through the dance that they have had enough and are now going to lead! Having said that it's great fun, and if any of you guys happen to be in the Peterborough area...

I lead quite frequently (and probably better than I follow, as I'm not the most elegant girl in the world unless the music gets to me). I started leading because there were too many women and I'd rather dance with women than sit about, but now I really like the challenge of it, from what the girl's I dance with say I'm a good lead, but it did take me quite a while to get the hang of it. I used to do all the moves with the wrong hand and get very confused - although sometimes I wish I could do that now as you'd end up with some interesting stuff, reverse wurlitzers or pretzels etc. It gets better with more practice and I'd recommend you try asking the lady taxi dancers at your venue to dance with you - they're used to helping the guys, so they can probably help you with anything you're not sure of.

Trish

[DianaS]

Thanks Trish for the advice. I think that if I do get asked to dance by girls and I don't know how often this may happen, then I'd better have a routine that I can just pull out of the bag.
I go totally blank and feel a tad panicky otherwise!

[under par]

Thanks Trish for the advice. I think that if I do get asked to dance by girls and I don't know how often this may happen, then I'd better have a routine that I can just pull out of the bag.
I go totally blank and feel a tad panicky otherwise!


Dianas, can I borrow this bag next Tuesday???? I could do with a routine for when I panic too......Pleeaase! :hug: :yeah:

[spindr]

I wouldn't recommend it! No offence guys but as a woman who has lead men quite frequently, the majority of them are fairly hopeless!

The snag is that guys don't tend to get any practice following -- though I'd definitely like to improve.

I'm just not sure whether the local venue's going to be too happy to see me in the follower's queue (especially when there're more ladies over than usual)?

SpinDr.

[DianaS]

Dianas, can I borrow this bag next Tuesday???? I could do with a routine for when I panic too......Pleeaase! :hug: :yeah:
I'll lend it you!!but has anyone one got one that i can borrow :rofl: ?

[Trish]

The snag is that guys don't tend to get any practice following -- though I'd definitely like to improve.

I'm just not sure whether the local venue's going to be too happy to see me in the follower's queue (especially when there're more ladies over than usual)?

SpinDr.
Yes I know what you mean there, there's usually too many ladies, we'll if you're ever in the Ceroc Central area... Peterborough, St Neots, Bedford, Luton... and fancy a dance I'm usually around at freestyles!

[Sheepman]

Any one esle heading to Daventry?I'll be a long way from Daventry this w/e, but if you have the patience of a saint, we could give it a try at Beach Boogie?

Greg

[Trish]

When I first started leading I was told it's useful to learn which hand each move starts on and use a lot of pushspins and moves like manspins/shoulderslides (then you can catch with either hand). A lot of people find themselves getting into patterns of first moves or armjives, swapping hands helps with this. The other thing I found helped me (the first time I lead sucessfully) was getting very, very drunk!!! It didn't improve my balance, but at least I learned not to care what I was doing and just to go with the flow - you don't really know what moves you're doing but you just do something and see what happens, strangely I found it worked out all right. Well actually I can't speak for the girls I was dancing with... they probably thought it was possibly the worst dance they'd had all night... I've never looked back since and can now lead sober!

[DianaS]

I'll be a long way from Daventry this w/e, but if you have the patience of a saint, we could give it a try at Beach Boogie?

Greg
OMG your on!
I'll have to get the guys to show me a good routine to impress you! I don't do dropsbut I have done leans, but I may try out my sexy moves just to feel what its like from the other side!

Promise you won't tell? :kiss: :rofl:
D

[Peter]

OMG your on! I'll have to get the guys to show me a good routine to impress you! I don't do dropsbut I have done leans, but I may try out my sexy moves just to feel what its like from the other side! Promise you won't tell? :kiss: :rofl: D

Oooo! I fancy some of that. I will be at BB on the first night only so can I be first in the queue? I should point out that I'm about 6ins taller than Sheepy, in case you need a get out clause (claws?)

[DianaS]

Oooo! I fancy some of that. I will be at BB on the first night only so can I be first in the queue? I should point out that I'm about 6ins taller than Sheepy, in case you need a get out clause (claws?)
Okay I've got a mate who is really good at sensuous stuff (I don't like really explicity moves so definatelly won't thrust you with my groin. You're safe), I'll ask him to give me a few of his routines! :clap:
CU there Peter!

[Sheepman]

OMG your on!
I'll have to get the guys to show me a good routine to impress you! I don't do dropsbut I have done leans, but I may try out my sexy moves just to feel what its like from the other side!

Promise you won't tell? :kiss: :rofl:
D I've only just spotted your reply, so my lack of response has nothing to do with fear, honestly! :blush:
It sounds like an enlightening experience! But please note I am a beginner at this, I'll be impressed by anyone who can lead me without the use of a sledgehammer.

But as you say, this is just between you and me, and maybe Peter?

Greg :kiss:

[DianaS]

I've only just spotted your reply, so my lack of response has nothing to do with fear, honestly! :blush:
It sounds like an enlightening experience! But please note I am a beginner at this, I'll be impressed by anyone who can lead me without the use of a sledgehammer.

But as you say, this is just between you and me, and maybe Peter?

Greg :kiss:
hi Greg,
It IS really tricky I had a go leading my friend Mary and even though she know the woman's part and I called the moves we ended in tangles!

I seems to be really confident in a lesson, but when I go to freestyle I have times when I just go blank and have difficulty putting moves together. Perhaps if we did part of a class with me being a man (just the start) it would work because you need to learn how to do the womans part too, then before we get too heebee geebee-ish we can swop into our usual roles and move around.

Let me know your thoughts, SM
I have the hee bee gee beeies already! :rofl:

[Peter]

as you say, this is just between you and me, and maybe Peter ..

.. plus 250 onlookers, 5 video cameras and all the folks at home ..

[DianaS]

.. plus 250 onlookers, 5 video cameras and all the folks at home ..
hmmmm this is going to need careful management...
:o

[Sheepman]

Let me know your thoughts, What you say sounds reasonable, but at BB there won't be many classes suitable for me - complete beginners! As I said, you'll need the patience of a saint, so maybe best to play it by ear. Looking forward to trying though.

Greg

[DianaS]

What you say sounds reasonable, but at BB there won't be many classes suitable for me - complete beginners! As I said, you'll need the patience of a saint, so maybe best to play it by ear. Looking forward to trying though.

Greg
ah bless, you sound as nervous as I feel, Greg. It's a bit like driving on the wrong side of the road and starting back wioth a provisional licence. The rules change and suddenly your expected to do a host more things.

I'm pleased that you're a beginner. I can show you a lot of how it is to learn how to follow because its what I'm still learning too. Remember I've only been dancing 9 months so its really all new to me.

We can probably just work on a few bits and pieces together rather than have to dance a whole dance. Some things if a guy understands how it feels may really help him. Being flicked to spin backwards is one of them. They draw you one way then flick you back another and sometimes wonder why you don't spin immediately (your weights on the wrong foot!)

What I have found is that women are so nice to dance with, they really help and encourage other women and never say horrid things and their arms are so soft!

I'll sure you'll be lovely, and I'm really looking forward to dancing with you,
Have you packed your bucket and spade?
best wishes,
Diana

[Tiggerbabe]

Remember I've only been dancing 9 months so its really all new to me.
Good on you Dianas, I think I'd been dancing for about a year and a half before I ventured into leading (no comments please :blush: ). I'll do both the beginners and intermediate class as the lead and enjoy dancing with girls and any of the guys who fancy trying their hand at following.

I've had some truly amazing dances - especially over the last weekend with Sparkles, Wendy and Linda :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

At the moment I worry most about leading the moves properly and fitting in moves that go with the music - I'm concerned that I'm not making the most of the moves that I know, as I tend to fall back into my old favourites when I'm dancing in freestyle.

I enjoy being able to help with the beginners and, also, it means that if a great track comes on and no-one has asked me to dance :tears: I don't need to sit it out - I can get on the dancefloor too :clap: :clap:


I'll sure you'll be lovely, and I'm really looking forward to dancing with you,

He is :hug: :kiss:

[Sparkles]

I've had some truly amazing dances - especially over the last weekend with Sparkles...

The pleasure was all mine :worthy: :flower:



I enjoy being able to help with the beginners and, also, it means that if a great track comes on and no-one has asked me to dance :tears: I don't need to sit it out - I can get on the dancefloor too :clap: :clap:
:

This is one of my favourite bits about being able to dance as a man - it means you never have to sit out when you'd rather be dancing. IMO one of the best things about social dancing is to be able to walk into a room and feel that you can confidently (relatively) walk up to anyone there and ask them for a dance :clap:

[DianaS]

The pleasure was all mine :worthy: :flower:

This is one of my favourite bits about being able to dance as a man - it means you never have to sit out when you'd rather be dancing. IMO one of the best things about social dancing is to be able to walk into a room and feel that you can confidently (relatively) walk up to anyone there and ask them for a dance :clap:
Hi Sparkles,
Its nice to hear from you again. I think that your absolutely spot on here, so often there are 12 -15 women over in our venues (so guys if you want a good night no refusals and lots of really good women head for South Birmingham!)and if we go out to a night club we have to really try to get equal numbers or its hopeless,
There are a couple of balls that me and my mates want to go to but we feel that asking a guys to spend 35 pounds for the pleasure of our company and to dance with us is a little much when we have no alterior motives!
So if I learnt to dance the lead it would mean that we perhaps weren't so dependent,
A cunning plan eh?
just must get over the hee bee gee biies, girls don't bite do they?!
:cheers: :clap:

[Gordon J Pownall]

...girls don't bite do they?!
:cheers: :clap:

Oh yes...they do, but in the nicest way.....although I feel that unless specifically requested, you may be exempt from teeth action...! :really: :wink:

[Sheepman]

you sound as nervous as I feelSo what would I have to be nervous about? Making a fool of myself? Nah, never happens!! :wink:


What I have found is that women are so nice to dance with, Phew, I'm glad that's not just me then, can I steal that quote for my new signature?


Have you packed your bucket and spade? If I'm lucky, I'll remember to pack it this year, along with the kitchen sink . . .

Greg

[DianaS]

Phew, I'm glad that's not just me then, can I steal that quote for my new signature?

Greg
corse you can :clap:

[DianaS]

If I'm lucky, I'll remember to pack it this year, along with the kitchen sink . . .

Greg

I've talken your advice and am bringing a camping fridge so if you've got a sink we're sorted!

[Magic Hans]

IMHO all men should learn to follow as well as lead :sick: ....it's the law...(well not yet anyway)... :hug:


:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

Totally agree. One hundred and 10 percent!!

[Peter]

IMO one of the best things about social dancing is to be able to walk into a room and feel that you can confidently (relatively) walk up to anyone there and ask them for a dance

mmm so, the flip side of that must be that once I have mastered following, I will then be able to walk up to the other 50% in the room (ie the guys) and ask them to lead me ... how confident will THEY feel?

[Lory]

mmm so, the flip side of that must be that once I have mastered following, I will then be able to walk up to the other 50% in the room (ie the guys) and ask them to lead me ... how confident will THEY feel?
I've just had this funny vIsion of you going up to guys and asking them in the style of the Flower in 'The little shop of horrors' but instead of 'feed me! ......... LEAD ME! :eek: :rofl: :rofl:

[Rhythm King]

I've just had this funny vIsion of you going up to guys and asking them in the style of the Flower in 'The little shop of horrors' but instead of 'feed me! ......... LEAD ME! :eek: :rofl: :rofl:

Yes but that would only work if they're called Seymour! :grin:

[Andy McGregor]

I've talken your advice and am bringing a camping fridge

I expect that kind of fridge bitches about your soft furnishings. Does it have a mincing attachment? :wink:

[DianaS]

I expect that kind of fridge bitches about your soft furnishings. Does it have a mincing attachment? :wink:

:rofl:
Its a cool camping fridge and doesn't mince
but bitches awfully about my taste :rofl:

[Andy McGregor]

mmm so, the flip side of that must be that once I have mastered following, I will then be able to walk up to the other 50% in the room (ie the guys) and ask them to lead me ... how confident will THEY feel?

In my experience most guys are actually frightened by being asked to dance by another guy. Don't ask me to explain why, I haven't a clue, just accept it.

To answer Peter's post, don't wait until you've 'mastered following' to start dancing with guys as a follower. In my experience the best leads are mostly guys, I think it's simply because they get more practice. Some girls are brilliant leads but they usually dance with good followers so have a nice gentle lead - and, because us guys start of as a beginner follower we usually need something much firmer...

[DianaS]

In my experience most guys are actually frightened by being asked to dance by another guy. Don't ask me to explain why, I haven't a clue, just accept it.

To answer Peter's post, don't wait until you've 'mastered following' to start dancing with guys as a follower. In my experience the best leads are mostly guys, I think it's simply because they get more practice. Some girls are brilliant leads but they usually dance with good followers so have a nice gentle lead - and, because us guys start of as a beginner follower we usually need something much firmer...
well perhsps this gives Peter Greg and me a way forward at BB
If Peter leads Greg, and Greg leads Peter, then I can dance with both of them immediately after and they'll think I'm really good! :clap:
Cool plan!
D

[Gordon J Pownall]

In my experience most guys are actually frightened by being asked to dance by another guy. Don't ask me to explain why, I haven't a clue, just accept it

:yeah: :yeah:

Quite agree,

Mind you, do you think it has anything to do with the seamed stockings, red high heels and boa that you wear...??? :really:

I get better results just wearing my usual clothes - and usually only am led by guys I dance with regularly...... :wink:

[Trish]

In my experience most guys are actually frightened by being asked to dance by another guy. Don't ask me to explain why, I haven't a clue, just accept it.

To answer Peter's post, don't wait until you've 'mastered following' to start dancing with guys as a follower. In my experience the best leads are mostly guys, I think it's simply because they get more practice. Some girls are brilliant leads but they usually dance with good followers so have a nice gentle lead - and, because us guys start of as a beginner follower we usually need something much firmer...

I agree with you about men being mostly better leads because of practice, although it's not always true. However much practice they've had, if men don't notice that they're hurting their partner and are too rough with their lead that's not comfortable. I think that is why most women leads are gentler, they know what it feels like to have your shoulder wrenched by a rough guy, or a guy that's pulling your arm in the wrong direction, and how much nicer it feels if you are lead gently but firmly in the right direction! A lot of women have told me they prefer dancing with women (well the ones that lead frequently) because they aren't as strong a lead. Guys definitely need a firmer lead mostly when dancing as a follower, nearly always IMHO much firmer than a beginner lady would need. I think perhaps (although I'm interested to hear anyone elses view on this) that this might be because they are so used to leading they find it hard to switch their brains off, and therefore lead even when they're supposed to be following. I think sometimes, being 5'3'' I find it difficult to lead men (and some tall girls) strongly because of the height difference.

I also wonder if men have more worries about people thinking they are gay than women do. Women are almost "allowed" to be more touchy feely with their own sex, although I don't really know why that should be. I don't personally watch two guys dancing together and jump to the conclusion they are gay, I presume they're enjoying the challenge of dancing in a different way.

[DianaS]

Oooo! I fancy some of that. I will be at BB on the first night only so can I be first in the queue? I should point out that I'm about 6ins taller than Sheepy, in case you need a get out clause (claws?)
The heat of the moment in the cool light of day

A talented but nameless stranger asked me to dance at BB, obviously a Forumite, as he stood in the centre of the floor holding out his hand like a girlie, with an expectant but coy look on his face. I was too giggly to do a thing, the moment past and he expertly took charge! Wheehhh...

BTW am I the only woman whose been dropped for a dog at BB?! :rofl:

[MartinHarper]

From elsewhere (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1978):


ladies taking the lead role is not advised for beginners

I'm curious: whose advice is this, and what are the reasons? Is the advice that ladies shouldn't try to learn both roles at once, or that they shouldn't learn the lead role before the follow role?

[Gadget]

I'm curious: whose advice is this, and what are the reasons? Is the advice that ladies shouldn't try to learn both roles at once, or that they shouldn't learn the lead role before the follow role?
My opinion only, but they are two seperate skills, and learning them both together would blur the line between them and make both skills less. Learning one first solidifies the actions and reactions before being bombarded with contrary instructions from the other one.
I would reccomend everyone to try both sides of the partnership - Once I have got my leading to a level I am completley confident with, I plan to learn following; but I'm a controll freak and find it very hard to sit in the back and have no controll over where I am going or what I am doing. {OK, an exaduration, but that's what it feels like to me.}

There are many ladys that can/do take up the lead's role - it is fun and helps when there is a shortage of men. However I believe that most ladies like to feel like ladies: danceing as a man every now and again is fine, but only every now & again.

{IMHO}

[Graham]

I'm curious: whose advice is this, and what are the reasons? Is the advice that ladies shouldn't try to learn both roles at once, or that they shouldn't learn the lead role before the follow role?
I don't know whose advice this is, but I certainly agree with it. In my opinion, the biggest hurdle to overcome for most people learning to follow is to not lead/anticipate. It's difficult for the majority of beginner women to do this anyway, because they have a tendency to think (often correctly) that they know better than their partner what move is being attempted and how it should go. Of course, if they have previously or simultaneously actually learned the lead role, it will be even harder for them to "forget" this and relinquish control to their partner. It's not a hard and fast rule - there will always be exceptionally good dancers who would have no trouble switching between the roles, but my own experience and observations of other dancers has led me to the conclusion that if you're going to learn to do both well it's better to learn to follow before learning to lead.

[Trish]

My opinion only, but they are two seperate skills, and learning them both together would blur the line between them and make both skills less. Learning one first solidifies the actions and reactions before being bombarded with contrary instructions from the other one.
I would reccomend everyone to try both sides of the partnership - Once I have got my leading to a level I am completley confident with, I plan to learn following; but I'm a controll freak and find it very hard to sit in the back and have no controll over where I am going or what I am doing. {OK, an exaduration, but that's what it feels like to me.}

There are many ladys that can/do take up the lead's role - it is fun and helps when there is a shortage of men. However I believe that most ladies like to feel like ladies: danceing as a man every now and again is fine, but only every now & again.

{IMHO}

Yes I quite agree about these being separate skills etc. As a lady who leads a fair bit, I found when I started that it was confusing remembering which hand a move started from, from the other perspective. As it is now, I think I take them as a whole set of extra moves, and my brain has got used to it.

I really like leading - I like the challenge of it, although sometimes I get really fed up with it, and would rather be swept off my feet by some nice big bloke. Unfortunately there aren't as many guys skilled in musical interpretation at my local venue as I'd like :sad: , and so to some tracks I'd rather lead than have some guy lead me with no account for the music whatsoever. It's lovely when you go to a freestyle full of men who can really DANCE though :worthy: !

[MartinHarper]

If you're going to learn to do both well it's better to learn to follow before learning to lead.

*sniff*
doomed!

I will have to drink more, so I can forget how to lead and start again properly...

[Petal]

OMG!
I have been dancing as a man for a few weeks in the beginners lessons and can do the lessons but when it goes to freestyle the moves fly out of my head.


I dance lead and follow in the beginners classes, but have only danced lead a few times in intermediate classes.

I can dance freestyle for almost a whole track the then i get a mind block, but peaches and i take turns in dancing lead with each other everyone week to try to build up our repertoire of moves, and have great fun doing it. :rofl:

[LMC]

To all the men out there - OK, we admit it - it's harder for you to start with (and stop b****y laughing at us :mad: - even if we are falling around ourselves :rofl: )

To all the lady taxi dancers - :worthy: :worthy: for making it look so easy!

To all the ladies at Chesham tonight who coped with us learning to lead for the first time, thank you :flower: - and we're going to be doing it again, get used to it

and :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: @ us

haven't laughed so much in ages!

A new challenge.... :clap:

[Icey]

:yeah:

Newkid and I tried the beginners class last night as "men" and it was bl**dy hard. Guys, I take my hat off to you!

BIG thank you to the girls who put up with us last night - especially when we went into freestyle at the end of the lesson. I made a complete hash of it - it really screws with your head trying to learn and lead the mens moves when you already know the ladies.

Thanks also need go to Newkid who let me get some practice in leading her during the freestlye later on.

:worthy: :worthy: Taxi dancers, I stand in total awe of you

[Sparkles]

it really screws with your head trying to learn and lead the mens moves when you already know the ladies.


I certainly does, and if I may add a word of caution, maybe it's that one should be careful not to get confused between the two.

As I'm sure everyone on the forum knows by now I think it's completely the right thing for men to learn to follow and women to learn to lead, especially if they are or wish to be taxi dancers.

The only reason I am adding a caution to this post is that I have danced with many women who are learning to lead and if they're not yet completely comfortable with following all the basic moves the fact they are learning to lead so early on can seriously affect their following abilities (and it's much harder to later break bad back-leading habits than it is not to get into them in the first place).

Of course I don't know you or how comfortable you are with your dancing and this is not meant to put you off, I think it admirable that you want to learn to lead.
My warning is to all beginners that it may be as well to be aware that in the early stages of a dancing career swapping roles can hinder as well as help you.

:flower:
S. x

[Lou]

My warning is to all beginners that it may be as well to be aware that in the early stages of a dancing career swapping roles can hinder as well as help you.
:yeah: I totally agree with everything that you've just said. :) :flower: Learning the opposite role can improve your dancing immensely.

When you're leading, it's the perfect opportunity to see how the other ladies dance. You can adapt their strengths to your own dancing, and recognise your own bad habits and change accordingly.

But I have to admit that occasionally (particularly if I'm tired) I forget which I'm dancing & start unintentionally backleading. :whistle: I'm glad I have a few years experience of following to fall back on, to be able to recognise when I'm up to no good... ;)

[bigdjiver]

There was an interesting program comparing the mental traits of men and women. Men are generally better at spatial tasks, and women generally better at empathy, but individuals can excel at either. I knew that already, but for the first time it clicked that having the male leading, although sexist, was based on a sound principles. It is possible that their experience of following means that top women make the best leaders.

[LMC]

Thanks also need go to Newkid who let me get some practice in leading her during the freestlye later on.
And you're betterer than me at it (witness the fact that you couldn't stand *me* leading *you* for a whole track and insisted on taking over, I need more practice :rofl: ). I ain't just being nice tho', you were good :worthy: :clap: :flower:


Learning the opposite role can improve your dancing immensely.
It was INCREDIBLY enlightening:
- guys - hats off, as Icey has said
- I now understand how annoying it is to be backled... :rolleyes: - I really don't think I am too bad on this (and genuinely want to know if I am doing it so I can apologise and more importantly, STOP doing it :blush: )
- whaddaya mean, leaders have to move their feet? :eek: (was gradually starting to get the hang of that by the end of the lesson lol)
- there is a whole new level of awareness of framing/following which I can't articulate right now - needs some more thought and practice before I bore you all to tears with my thinks :na:


The only reason I am adding a caution to this post is that I have danced with many women who are learning to lead and if they're not yet completely comfortable with following all the basic moves the fact they are learning to lead so early on can seriously affect their following abilities (and it's much harder to later break bad back-leading habits than it is not to get into them in the first place).
Although I've been dancing only just over 2 months, I've been going a LOT - (addict? me? :rofl: ) - and making a point of doing the beginners classes every time - to the point where I was conscious of starting to anticipate as I know the moves so well now (hence the decision for a 'change of perspective' as I didn't want anticipation to turn into backleading!).

So leading last night didn't screw my following for much longer than the first half of the first freestyle track as a follower. Trying to go back to *leading* later in the evening was a problem for me (wasn't it Icey? :rofl: ). I suspect that that is because I really really try hard not to backlead, so leading is a very alien skill - I don't think I'll ever be more than competent, but even that would suit me and is beyond aspirational at the moment :D . Point taken though, I think I will continue to do at least one beginners in four as a follower so I don't "lose it", thanks Sparkles.

Finish off with my normal pot-stirring (= blatant attempt to win Forum Wooden Spoon Award) - are women who are used to following/good followers far more sensitive to backleading than many men - because they are used to being led and therefore recognise backleading - which an inexperienced man might not (i.e. he thinks he's leading but he's actually being backled)?

[MartinHarper]

Prior dancing experience, of any sort, will help beginner leads cope, and therefore provide them with more free brain space to be aware of things like being backled. Beyond that... don't know.


learning to lead so early on can seriously affect their following

How much is this a problem with learning to lead too soon, and how much is it a problem with stopping beginner follow classes too early?

[Lou]

to the point where I was conscious of starting to anticipate as I know the moves so well now (hence the decision for a 'change of perspective' as I didn't want anticipation to turn into backleading!).
Ahhhh... Just an idea (but it helped me at a similar stage)... try to get as many dances as you can with anyone who can lead. Then concentrate on feeling every single nuance of the lead. DON'T ANTICIPATE!! It's as bad as backleading. :flower: Don't think about what move you think he wants you to do, just follow where he takes you.



Finish off with my normal pot-stirring (= blatant attempt to win Forum Wooden Spoon Award) - are women who are used to following/good followers far more sensitive to backleading than many men - because they are used to being led and therefore recognise backleading - which an inexperienced man might not (i.e. he thinks he's leading but he's actually being backled)?
Oooh... interesting idea. I'd not thought of that. :) But I wonder if it's more to do with the fact that mostly more experienced ladies lead, and that more experienced dancers, no matter what sex, can pick up on stuff like backleading.

[LMC]

Ahhhh... Just an idea (but it helped me at a similar stage)... try to get as many dances as you can with anyone who can lead. Then concentrate on feeling every single nuance of the lead. DON'T ANTICIPATE!! It's as bad as backleading. :flower: Don't think about what move you think he wants you to do, just follow where he takes you.
Er, isn't that what freestyle is for? :whistle:



are women who are used to following/good followers far more sensitive to backleading than many men - because they are used to being led and therefore recognise backleading - which an inexperienced man might not (i.e. he thinks he's leading but he's actually being backled)?
Oooh... interesting idea. I'd not thought of that. :) But I wonder if it's more to do with the fact that mostly more experienced ladies lead, and that more experienced dancers, no matter what sex, can pick up on stuff like backleading.
Quite probably :nice:

[Lou]

Er, isn't that what freestyle is for? :whistle:
:D Yup. :rofl:

All I was trying to say is that there's a difference between following a move thinking "Ooooh.... he's led me into his side - it's going to be a Yo-yo. Oooh... I know this move :nice: . I'll just step here, and turn, and here.... etc..." and actually "listening" to each of his leads. That's what I tend to think of when someone says "anticipation", you see. :) But I'm sure you don't do that in freestyle, and you were just talking about the lesson.

[spindr]

Ok, given the discussion on other threads thought I might try out the can opener on this
can of worms (http://www.salsamafia.com:8080/yabbee/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=1999;sta rt=0#msg33190) :)

SpinDr.

[Lou]

Ok, given the discussion on other threads thought I might try out the can opener on this
can of worms (http://www.salsamafia.com:8080/yabbee/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=1999;sta rt=0#msg33190) :)
:blush: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :blush:
So that's why I always lead Becky. :eek: SalsaMafia are wicked!

Hmmmm... I wonder why it brought to mind that bit in Shall We Dance when Jennifer Lopez does the "The rumba is the vertical expression of a horizontal wish" spiel. :whistle:

[LMC]

Ok, given the discussion on other threads thought I might try out the can opener on this
can of worms (http://www.salsamafia.com:8080/yabbee/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=1999;sta rt=0#msg33190) :)

SpinDr.

I would dispute that the above hypothesis has been validated for a number of reasons:

- lack of rigorous methodology
- insufficient quantitative data
- no mention of controls
- no evidence of peer review
- no statistical analysis of random/systematic variances

If all thread hijacks start going in this direction then more than a few of us are going to start getting a complex!

[Buttons]

I started dancing as a man in the class when there was a shortage of them. I found initially that my dancing suffered. I kept forgetting that I was leading. Now, I can lead double trouble, nick the man's lead in freestyle(only with those I know like to follow), and lots of women ask me to dance lead for them. It is a bit strange being asked by a woman but it beats sitting out.

A lot of men actually like me stealing the lead they say it takes the pressure off them and they can enjoy the spontinaity of following making my dancing a bit more interesting.

[Trish]

I started dancing as a man in the class when there was a shortage of them. I found initially that my dancing suffered. I kept forgetting that I was leading. Now, I can lead double trouble, nick the man's lead in freestyle(only with those I know like to follow), and lots of women ask me to dance lead for them. It is a bit strange being asked by a woman but it beats sitting out.


:yeah: Me too! Great isn't it? :clap:

As to the debate about whether girls that haven't been following all that long should lead, I agree with Sparkles, that you want to be really sure of your following first. For me though I started off thinking of the leading and following as two separate groups of moves - that way I didn't get so confused. Now though I've been leading so long and so often that I can usually swap it around, and follow a move that I've learnt as a man, or lead a move that I've learnt as a woman. I also find that the men tend to use me as a resource if they've forgotten a move as I can show them how to do it (usually using a willing woman volunteer), and then dance it with them to make sure they've got it.

[JoC]

It's taken me a while to get round to thinking about having a go at dancing lead, recently I tried a couple of random class nights that were short of women and it was fun, and they went ok but I didn't really take too much in.

The last two weekends though in Inverness, which has been a class of almost entirely absolute beginners, men and women, I've been a lead and it's been a fantastic 'proper' introduction to leading.

A couple of reasons why this was soooo great....

1. I attended two afternoon beginners workshops taught by Franck. There was a lot of work on the essential principles of lead/follow and basic leading skills (and following obviously for the followers). We also got some great tips like relaxing into a few man spins or shoulder slides while you think up your next move that'll help keep the dance flowing when your mind goes blank. I've probably forgotten a lot already, but I'm also sure a lot will stick if I keep practising. So, I can't recommend enough attending a beginner workshop.

2. The other thing that helped, especially in freestyle (and it was only after two workshops that I got brave enough to try leading in freestyle), was that I had a choice of leading experienced (good!) followers, or absolute beginners. The beginner ladies were so inexperienced, that it made me feel a little extra confident (maybe they wouldn't notice if I fluffed it...plus most of the other leads were total beginners too). The experienced ladies on the other hand, allowed me to get a feel for leading a 'good' follower and could give feedback.

This situation is going to be pretty rare unless there's a new class starting somewhere remote I guess but it was fantastic!

Now, just got to be brave and ask some more ladies for dances... :D

[robd]

Inverse to the thread title but I have to mention seeing Alex Faulkner 'following' his partner at the Tea Dance at Peterborough on Sunday. I was sitting one out and his multiple spins were quite eye-catching if a bit 'look at me, look at me' for a leader - it was when my partner pointed out that actually he is following his partners lead that I started to see why he was spinning so often and so rapidly. He was sensational, as was his partner leading him it has to be said.
However, I did regret encouraging my partner to ask him to dance early on in the evening as it made me think things could only go downhill for her from there if she was dancing with me :sad:

[Tazmanian Devil]

OMG!
Help I was asked to dance by a woman last night and found it really difficult. I didn't want to let her down as she was new but it was really tricky. I have been dancing as a man for a few weeks in the beginners lessons and can do the lessons but when it goes to freestyle the moves fly out of my head.
Have other woman become bi-lingual and how did they cope with it?
and is it a good thing in any case?
I wouldn't worry about it too much it happens to the best of us. The guys go through it when they first start dancing also.
I have been dancing the lead for about 2 years now and still get mental blocks at times. Either that or I feel like I am doing the same moves over and over. Keep with it girl I am sure you will be great. :kiss: :hug:

[Tellina]

I have recently started to learn to lead, for the reasons stated in this thread (lack of men at dances, to improve my dancing as a follow, for the challenge etc.) and I have a question for the ladies who can dance the lead: Do you change anything else about your dancing other than the arm movements? What I mean is, do you feel that you have a different tension in your arms / different frame / different style etc. when you dance "as a man"? Also, for those of you who always do a back-step with the right foot when following, is it better to step back on the left when leading or to stay with the reflex of the right foot?

Any other advice for someone who is starting out on the lead road? (I am comfortable following and I agree with what has been said so far about not learning the other role too early.)

Thanks! :grin:

Lily

[Trish]

I have recently started to learn to lead, for the reasons stated in this thread (lack of men at dances, to improve my dancing as a follow, for the challenge etc.) and I have a question for the ladies who can dance the lead: Do you change anything else about your dancing other than the arm movements? What I mean is, do you feel that you have a different tension in your arms / different frame / different style etc. when you dance "as a man"? Also, for those of you who always do a back-step with the right foot when following, is it better to step back on the left when leading or to stay with the reflex of the right foot?

Any other advice for someone who is starting out on the lead road? (I am comfortable following and I agree with what has been said so far about not learning the other role too early.)

Thanks! :grin:

Lily

I don't think I change much as far as tension etc goes, but to some extent you have to adapt to the person you're leading, and maybe be a bit firmer if they are also strong (with some nervous beginners it's like dragging them through treacle!) The alternative to this is not to be so strong, but to let them go where they want and make a move out of that, but this is probably not the easiest thing to try when you've only just started and have a limited repertoire. You might find you have to alter your tension a bit if you tend to be a bit on the spaghetti side of things, but I'm sure you've probably got the right tension anyway.

It depends a bit on what your style was in the first place. In the unlikely event that anyone on this forum suffers from bouncy hands, I'd say that doesn't really help you lead. I was also told at one point that I didn't look very masculine! So when I started for a while I tried not to do so many step and not to put my spare arm out - but then I thought, no, I'm doing this for my own enjoyment and not to teach or anything, so why shouldn't I look feminine?! This business of being less feminine seems to be a big thing if you're thinking of teaching though, as I guess they don't want to produce a load of effeminate male leads!

You may need to step back on the left for certain moves - I find this is generally the case with a first move, and I think it's usually taught that way in our area anyway. Steping back with the right is better for a basket/octopus type move. I'd say watch what your teacher does in the beginner lesson and follow that. The main thing is to make sure you step in for a turn and then back again afterwards - sounds obvious but when you're thinking of a lot of other things it's easy to miss!

The two things I found helpful were to think of the moves as a load of new moves, different to the ladies moves, and to concentrate hard on remembering which hand each move begins on, which stops you getting so confused.

Hope that helps - bit of a long one I'm afraid!

Trish

[Piglet]

Hey need to share!

I've just done my first night of a lead in a beginner's class and really enjoyed it. I did half of a class last night cos the moves were the arm jive swizzle, in and out and octopus to start with and I knew I could lead those (well - was quite confident). It really makes me think, but I'm enjoying the challenge. :clap: Not ready for freestyle at all yet - give me another 16 months to get my head around that idea :rofl:

[JoC]

Not ready for freestyle at all yet - give me another 16 months to get my head around that idea :rofl:No need to wait that long!!! Lots of man spins or shoulder slides, that's the ticket!!! Fancy a dance sometime? ;)

[ducasi]

Hey need to share!

I've just done my first night of a lead in a beginner's class and really enjoyed it. Cool. :)

Tonight I had to fight off a girl who was determined to lead me through as many windmills as possible. :sick:

Wouldn't have been so bad, but I was meant to be leading that dance! :blush:

Still want to try a beginner's class or two as a follower to see what it's like. Need to see if I can think of any sympathetic lady leaders... :rolleyes:

[Piglet]

No need to wait that long!!! Lots of man spins or shoulder slides, that's the ticket!!! Fancy a dance sometime? ;)

You are on Jo ! :D :D :flower:

[Piglet]

Still want to try a beginner's class or two as a follower to see what it's like. Need to see if I can think of any sympathetic lady leaders... :rolleyes:

I'm sure there are lots of ladies at your normal classes that will help, but if you ever want to come up to Aberdeen... :D :D

Mind you, I'm staying away from the freestyle leading until after the competition!

[ducasi]

I'm sure there are lots of ladies at your normal classes that will help, but if you ever want to come up to Aberdeen... :D :D

Mind you, I'm staying away from the freestyle leading until after the competition!
Funny you should say that... :nice:

I'm planning a wee tour round Scotland the week after Musselburgh... When's a good day to be in Aberdeen anyway?

[Piglet]

When's a good day to be in Aberdeen anyway?

Tuesday night and Wednesday night are my favourites - possibly a bit more room on Tuesdays because its not in the centre of Aberdeen. Thursday is a tiny venue - nice if you like dancing in the dark, but to be honest - the calibre of dancers can be much poorer that night. It would be good to see you though so be sure to let me know when you're coming :hug:

[Tazmanian Devil]

I have recently started to learn to lead, for the reasons stated in this thread (lack of men at dances, to improve my dancing as a follow, for the challenge etc.) and I have a question for the ladies who can dance the lead: Do you change anything else about your dancing other than the arm movements? What I mean is, do you feel that you have a different tension in your arms / different frame / different style etc. when you dance "as a man"? Also, for those of you who always do a back-step with the right foot when following, is it better to step back on the left when leading or to stay with the reflex of the right foot?

Any other advice for someone who is starting out on the lead road? (I am comfortable following and I agree with what has been said so far about not learning the other role too early.)

Thanks! :grin: Lily

I had to think about that one for a bit as I just tend to chop and change from dancing the lead to following. I think I have more tension in my arms as I need to lead the lady where I want her. Frame :confused: I really don't know about that one. Ans style I feel comes with each individual person I dance with, I tend to go with the guys style when following, but I suppose I must have my own style when I have the lead.
The only advise I can give is keep with it, do the lessons and it will all come together nicely. :kiss: :hug:

[Nessa]

......Frame :confused: I really don't know about that one. And style I feel comes with each individual person I dance with, I tend to go with the guys style when following, but I suppose I must have my own style when I have the lead.
The only advice I can give is keep with it, do the lessons and it will all come together nicely. :kiss: :hug:I know that I tend to adapt my leading style to the girl-partner's style, as I figure they've got a lot more experience with the style thing than one of us newish she-males out there! It certainly adds to my repotoire of style moves for use when I switch roles again.


For me one of the funniest things about trying to lead is that, well, some guy leads a move on me and I think, excellent, that looks good, that'd be fun to learn to lead (for example) for a Battle of the Sexes comp. So I try it out on one of my unsuspecting friends and suddenly realise - oh dear, I've just done something that locks us in a physically intimate position. Or as one lady put it - "gosh, look at us, dancing boob to boob." :rofl: VERY embarrassing when not planned... kinda funny if I was trying to shock one of my good friends.

And a BLOODY cunning plan when trawling for BOTS partners - before the CMJ comps in Sydney last June I had 4 girls ask me to dance with them - sadly, we didn't have time for BOTS in that comp :sick: :sad:

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere in this rather lengthy thread - but it seems that girls dancing lead isn't likely to raise too many eyebrows in your fair Isles? It's just that in a few short weeks I'm heading to the UK for my first ever visit - and I'd hate to give y'all the wrong idea about what us Aussie girl Ceroccers do in our spare time :innocent: ...

[Tellina]

I don't think I change much as far as tension etc goes, but to some extent you have to adapt to the person you're leading, and maybe be a bit firmer if they are also strong (with some nervous beginners it's like dragging them through treacle!) The alternative to this is not to be so strong, but to let them go where they want and make a move out of that, but this is probably not the easiest thing to try when you've only just started and have a limited repertoire. You might find you have to alter your tension a bit if you tend to be a bit on the spaghetti side of things, but I'm sure you've probably got the right tension anyway.

It depends a bit on what your style was in the first place. In the unlikely event that anyone on this forum suffers from bouncy hands, I'd say that doesn't really help you lead. I was also told at one point that I didn't look very masculine! So when I started for a while I tried not to do so many step and not to put my spare arm out - but then I thought, no, I'm doing this for my own enjoyment and not to teach or anything, so why shouldn't I look feminine?! This business of being less feminine seems to be a big thing if you're thinking of teaching though, as I guess they don't want to produce a load of effeminate male leads!

You may need to step back on the left for certain moves - I find this is generally the case with a first move, and I think it's usually taught that way in our area anyway. Steping back with the right is better for a basket/octopus type move. I'd say watch what your teacher does in the beginner lesson and follow that. The main thing is to make sure you step in for a turn and then back again afterwards - sounds obvious but when you're thinking of a lot of other things it's easy to miss!

The two things I found helpful were to think of the moves as a load of new moves, different to the ladies moves, and to concentrate hard on remembering which hand each move begins on, which stops you getting so confused.

Hope that helps - bit of a long one I'm afraid!

TrishThanks Trish! It does help. :grin: I certainly don't suffer from Spaghetti arms (if anything, it's the opposite!) but I did notice that if the lady decides to do a move on her own, there's little point in trying to stop her! I've only done a few moves so far so I can't really turn one move into another, but I just try and start leading again as soon as she's finished the move she was doing :whistle:

That's a good point you make about being feminine or masculine when dancing the lead. I hadn't thought about the difference between freestyling where a lead can dance in any way and teaching the lead where it may indeed be better to adopt a more masculine style. As I'd love to be able to teach MJ one day (if I get good enough...) it's definitely something for me to keep in mind!

As far as stepping back and copying the teacher goes, it's a bit biased because our teacher has done a lot of Swing and so he always steps back on his left foot. Also, I am taking Swing classes as a lead so I step back on my left foot there too. I think I'll continue with that style as it actually easier now for me, thanks to muscle memory, to step back on my left foot that to tell myself ity's ok, I can step back on either foot!

I agree that the moves seem to be completely different when I'm leading them as to when I'm following. Actually, it almost seems like a competely new dance. I feel like I'm starting all over again with a new dance but it's really motivating because progress is so much faster!

Thanks again for the advice :hug:

[Tellina]

I had to think about that one for a bit as I just tend to chop and change from dancing the lead to following. I think I have more tension in my arms as I need to lead the lady where I want her. Frame :confused: I really don't know about that one. Ans style I feel comes with each individual person I dance with, I tend to go with the guys style when following, but I suppose I must have my own style when I have the lead.
The only advise I can give is keep with it, do the lessons and it will all come together nicely. :kiss: :hug:Thanks. :grin: I definitely intend to keep learning the lead because I'm surprised at how much fun it is (although I have to admit that it feels so good to return to following!) I wish we had more frequent classes here though as the only way I can get more practice is by taking Swing classes as a lead.

[Lynn]

I've been doing the lead in classes recently, mainly to make up numbers as extra women but also to learn to lead to help my taxi-ing. I had only led a few dances in freestyle though so had a go last night. Its all been beginner ladies and I'm doing all the 'panic can't think of a move, throw an easy one in' (in my case seems to be the man spin) - its good to know what its like for the guys.

Last night there was a visiting Scottish dancer and I asked her up as she didn't know anyone, explaining that I was a beginner lead. And she actually followed what I led. It was a very different experience from dancing with a beginner lady who follows the move she thinks you are doing, rather than the lead you are doing. If someone follows what you actually lead then you can see where you are going wrong in the lead.

I know, I know all the guys know this of course but it was very enlightening for me. Another one of those things I knew in theory but had an impact when I experienced it.

[Freya]

I've been doing the lead in classes recently, mainly to make up numbers as extra women but also to learn to lead to help my taxi-ing. I had only led a few dances in freestyle though so had a go last night. Its all been beginner ladies and I'm doing all the 'panic can't think of a move, throw an easy one in' (in my case seems to be the man spin) - its good to know what its like for the guys.

Last night there was a visiting Scottish dancer and I asked her up as she didn't know anyone, explaining that I was a beginner lead. And she actually followed what I led. It was a very different experience from dancing with a beginner lady who follows the move she thinks you are doing, rather than the lead you are doing. If someone follows what you actually lead then you can see where you are going wrong in the lead.

I know, I know all the guys know this of course but it was very enlightening for me. Another one of those things I knew in theory but had an impact when I experienced it.

Well Done Lynn. It sounds as if your doing great. I have also just started dancing the lead in the beginners classes. Aberdeen has a habbit of having far too many women!!! <Looks around for some hot tasty young men and is sorely disapointed!!!>

I'm just doing the occasional class especially if I know the moves well. Tonight there were far far too many women in the refresher class so as I know the taxi-dancers quite well I offered to help out as a man. At the end of the night I was asked to help out at the beginner's workshop this weekend AS A MAN!!!! EEEEEEEEK :what: I'm nervous but should be great!

I now have so so so much respect for the males :respect: - HAven't quite worked up the guts to dance freestyle yet! :blush:

Just thought I'd share!

Freya
xXx
:flower:

[Frankie_4711]

I've been dancing the beginner classes as a man for longer than I did as a woman!! (basically because of the uneven numbers, I feel it's only fair to reduce the female numbers by 2!) I do prefer to be the woman, but hey, can't always have what you want, can you? And I do take the opportunity to swap back if there aren't that many women in the queue!

The hardest thing was trying to freestyle - "OMG, can't think of a right-handed move ... argh!!" But it came with time and I have no problem freestyling as a man now ...

Except ... I'm totally bored with only being able to do the beginner moves, but as I've only been dancing for just over a year, don't feel that I'm good enough yet as a woman to forfeit the intermediate class and do it as a man.

I did some taxi-ing for some semi-private lessons a while ago, where everyone had had at most a few hours of lessons, and as they were short on men I did the honours. Problem was, because they were being taught for one specific event, rather than getting all the beginner moves in first, then moving on, the teacher decided to do a mix of beginner and intermediate moves, so I was learning at the same time as trying to help these poor people learn! And not only did he do that, but decided that one of these moves was going to be a lift! Yeah, right - didn't actually manage that one, I'm afraid. At least I have got one or two intermediate moves under my belt now, though (not used any of them in freestyle yet ... don't exactly jump to the front of my mind when I'm desperately scrabbling around for the next move!)

[Freya]

but decided that one of these moves was going to be a lift! Yeah, right - didn't actually manage that one, I'm afraid.

Yikes!! :really:

Sounds scary!! <Knees Quibble>

Freya
xXx

[Dave T]

Looks around for some hot tasty young men


Does scoring one out of the four options count? :rofl:

Dave

[Freya]

Does scoring one out of the four options count? :rofl:

Dave
:yeah: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Love ya hun! :love:

XXXXXXXXX

[Genie]

Freya! There are pleanty of tasty young men in Aberdeen.

Just not many who can dance...

[Freya]

You know me I'm Fussy!!! (Maybe thats an understatement!) :wink:

Freya xXx

[Genie]

There's fussy, and then there's impossible

[Freya]

Well....!!

In that case i'm doomed to spinsterville!!!

Freya xXx

[Nessa]

Last night there was a visiting Scottish dancer and I asked her up as she didn't know anyone, explaining that I was a beginner lead. And she actually followed what I led. It was a very different experience from dancing with a beginner lady who follows the move she thinks you are doing, rather than the lead you are doing. If someone follows what you actually lead then you can see where you are going wrong in the lead.

I know, I know all the guys know this of course but it was very enlightening for me. Another one of those things I knew in theory but had an impact when I experienced it.Good on ya Lynn!!

It's very educational isn't it?! I know my first experiences as a guy-dancer/lead were greatly influenced by a bloke dancing at my venue who had a very clear lead. Even when I was a pretty raw beginner I had little trouble dancing blind with him.

Anyway last night I had a similar experience, dancing with some of the most advanced lady dancers in Sydney and just feeling them respond EXACTLY as I had intended. And when they didn't it was always very clear to me what I'd done wrong (usually a choice between- I had no idea what I was doing/lost concentration for a mo, and was trying some move I'd only ever seen and didn't have the feel of it right yet).

It was awesome also feeling these girls hijack the lead with confidence, it was something that I was then able to pass on to the other less experienced gals I danced with afterwards. Having first-hand experience of what a great follow/lead feels like makes it so much easier to replicate!

Big kudos to my gals, one for having the guts to dance with me to Bei Mir Bist Du Schoen (sensually slow to ridiculously fast) when nobody else would, and another brave lady who trusted me to lead her into a couple of challenging dips without damaging her...

[Lynn]

We had loads of extra ladies this week :tears: and when my friend Ruth (whom some of you have met) arrived partway through the class she decided to try the lead. Which she did really well :respect: I later got her up for a dance and let her lead for the first part. Hope she continues, someone else to play lead steal with.

Oh and I managed to dance several tracks as lead, using only about 10 or 11 moves and far too many man spins....but I'm improving!

For some reason a man spin is my 'Help, what do I do now!' move. Handy as its good for a change of hands but doesn't buy me a lot of thinking time!

[Frankie_4711]

For some reason a man spin is my 'Help, what do I do now!' move. Handy as its good for a change of hands but doesn't buy me a lot of thinking time!

That's my 'panic-mode' move too! And I really don't know why, because I always end up catching with the right and then struggling to think of a right-handed move!! My right-handed 'panic-mode' move is the Catapult, so I end up with a routine (if you can call it that!) jam packed with Man-spins and Catapults!!!

[Ghost]

That's my 'panic-mode' move too! And I really don't know why, because I always end up catching with the right and then struggling to think of a right-handed move!! My right-handed 'panic-mode' move is the Catapult, so I end up with a routine (if you can call it that!) jam packed with Man-spins and Catapults!!!
Slo-comb - lots and lots of thinking time :whistle: and you can come out of it with any hand combination :clap:

Take care,
Christopher

[Andy McGregor]

We had loads of extra ladies this week :tears: This "loads of extra ladies" is a phenomenon of new classes and is mostly caused by advertising. In my experience advertising attracts women and couples. Guys come because women have asked them to. Encourage the women to bring a few guys and the numbers will soon sort themselves out.

Speaking for myself I started MJ at the invitation of one of my wife's friends. About a year before I went for the first time I'd actually seen a busk in Worthing and had decided I didn't fancy learning what they were doing. It seemed really basic compared to ballroom and latin. I'd been going to MJ classes for about a month before I realised it was the dance I'd seen in the street. By then I was hooked :clap:

[drathzel]

I spend most of my time dancing as a man in my classes as, lynn mentioned, we have loads of women. I enjoy it and i like it when i get the opetunity to dance as a women,but dancing as a man lets me know how the women in my class are progressing so i know what to include for the women in my teach. It also means there are people dancing as teh class havent entirely grasps the "freestyle" part of the night. I am really grateful to the women who dance as men in my class as it helps "even" out things a bit more.:respect:

[DianaS]

When I read this I realise how naive my earlier posts were. I didn't know the simplest things. "Dancing as a man" should ofcourse read "dancing the lead".
I am enlightened:flower:
At last