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View Full Version : Specious arguments, no. 1: Children



Barry Shnikov
5th-July-2004, 08:40 AM
The religious beliefs thread has died, so here's a new bone of contention.

The following argument is wrong:

"Children are entitled to the protection of the European Declaration of Human Rights and therefore - since physical assault on an adult is a crime - smacking children should be banned outright."


It's wrong because children are not entitled to the protection of the EDHR in the way that adults are, and also because the analogy between behaviour toward adults and behaviour toward children is misconceived.

Dreadful Scathe
2nd-September-2004, 05:34 PM
The religious beliefs thread has died, so here's a new bone of contention.

The following argument is wrong:

"Children are entitled to the protection of the European Declaration of Human Rights and therefore - since physical assault on an adult is a crime - smacking children should be banned outright."


It's wrong because children are not entitled to the protection of the EDHR in the way that adults are, and also because the analogy between behaviour toward adults and behaviour toward children is misconceived.
I missed this thread before. Interesting subject and I agree with you. Children should not be treated like Adults until they are actually Adults. Seems obvious to me but societys attitude toward children has changed a lot in the last few decades. Long gone are the victorian days of 'speak only when spoken to' but we've passed out the other side and now children have way too much power in their day to day life. Examples ? Teachers, the Police and even the parents can't discipline their children the way they want to (and discipline is a very broad term so dont assume i mean smacking) as there are 'rules'. As more rules are brought in, the family unit is weakened, then society and we have a generation of unruly brats - some say we already have.. but i dont think its that bad! When it comes down to adult versus child nowadays - children are treated equally, is this right? Are children just as mentally and physically developed.....no!
Parenting must be down to the parents i think and you would find it hard to justify the excuse of 'the rules protect children' as adults are quite used to breaking rules, thats why we have prisons :). So who do the rules protect? (ill wait for someone else to come up with a list of law and social changes i.e. "the rules"...or i will, but later :) )

discuss .... :)

Dance Demon
2nd-September-2004, 06:13 PM
I think that there is not only a lack of discipline, but also a lack of respect in todays children. i was always brought up to respect adults, and other peoples property. I was also brought up in an era where teachers had more control over pupils because they were allowed to discipline them. I think there were the odd few teachers who perhaps were prone to be a bit severe, but they were in the minority. however rules are rules, and a child who continually breaks them should be subjected to some form of punishment. Kids these days are well aware that they can get away with misbehaving without any form of real punishment, so there is no deterrent. I would hate to be a teacher today. Re the Police, I think that there is not the same respect for them because there is not the same contact between them and the public. In the days when you had beat bobbies patrolling on foot, they were part of the community, and got to know everyone. everyone knew their local policeman. Now the Police patrol in cars, and the only ones they get to know are the known criminals.

Dreadful Scathe
3rd-September-2004, 09:59 AM
I think that there is not only a lack of discipline, but also a lack of respect in todays children. i was always brought up to respect adults, and other peoples property. I was also brought up in an era where teachers had more control over pupils because they were allowed to discipline them. I think there were the odd few teachers who perhaps were prone to be a bit severe, but they were in the minority. however rules are rules, and a child who continually breaks them should be subjected to some form of punishment. Kids these days are well aware that they can get away with misbehaving without any form of real punishment, so there is no deterrent. I would hate to be a teacher today. Re the Police, I think that there is not the same respect for them because there is not the same contact between them and the public. In the days when you had beat bobbies patrolling on foot, they were part of the community, and got to know everyone. everyone knew their local policeman. Now the Police patrol in cars, and the only ones they get to know are the known criminals.
Yup. Children, as part of growing up, continually prod the boundaries of life. They see what they can get away with and if it turns out that there are very few boundaries, then theyll continue looking ... shouldn't boundaries be lower NOT further away. No one even gets on at Children for swearing anymore so it becomes habit.

Andy McGregor
3rd-September-2004, 10:25 AM
There are some simple ingredients to bringing up your children properly - you've got to want to bring them up well and you've got to put a lot of work into doing it.

I see many parents in supermarkets giving their children a serious beating for asking questions or speaking too much - IMHO this is a failure of the parents rather than the children. And, it is an assault. Could you stand up in court and say "I slapped his legs 10 times because he kept asking for a packet of Smarties"? Which brings us to the question, what justifiable smacking? And the next question, what degree of smacking is reasonable and what is unreasonable? As a parent I have smacked my children 3 times, one twice, one once and one not at all. Each time it was a gentle slap on the upper arm when they were too young to understand that what they'd done was very dangerous - like running into moving traffic. But, if I've never smacked my youngest because, by the time she came along, I'd worked out better ways to get the message across. And I wouldn't ever have smacked the other two if I'd been a more experienced parent at the time :tears:

The good news is that they don't seem to have been harmed and are growing up to be well adjusted ladies :flower:

So, I think that assaulting a child should be banned because there is no need for it and there is massive potential for abuse in being able to legally assault anyone of any age.

But, I do think legislation has gone too far. Here is an example of rules gone mad that I experienced a few years ago. My youngest daughter kept on getting nits :eek: We'd inspect her hair every night and treat her for them, clear them up - and then she'd get nits again, and again, and again. The situation got so bad the expensive prep school she attended arranged for a visit from a nurse to educate us about nits. Of course, we went along. The nurse told us we were doing everything we could and were getting it right and also that we were only the second parents to see her in 2 hours! The problem was that some other parents weren't doing anything about their children's nits and their children kept re-infesting our daughter. I asked why the school hadn't done anything about it and was told that they weren't allowed to tell the child or the parents due to the rules and regulations!!!

Lou
3rd-September-2004, 10:52 AM
I asked why the school hadn't done anything about it and was told that they weren't allowed to tell the child or the parents due to the rules and regulations!!!
I was chatting to a friend about the very same thing yesterday. Her toddler son attends a nursery during the day. One of the other children there has nits, but the child minder is powerless to do anything except tell the parent of that child that he has headlice. The parent apparently isn't all that bothered, and so all the other children routinely get re-infested. Daft, isn't it.

I was amused by a story in today's Mirror, though. Apparently a bus driver in Newport ordered a women & her 3 kids off a bus because one of the children wouldn't stop crying the whole journey long. And he was backed by the bus company as it's very distracting for the driver & puts the other passengers at risk.

Although, I was less amused at the station when poor old Roger, the ticket man, was forced to give a severe talking to to a teenage lad who was trying to fare dodge. The lad just shrugged & laughed.

Rachel
3rd-September-2004, 11:41 AM
But, if I've never smacked my youngest because, by the time she came along, I'd worked out better ways to get the message across. And I wouldn't ever have smacked the other two if I'd been a more experienced parent at the time :tears: :clap:

Andy, you know, for a Tory you say some bloody sensible things at times!
Rachel

Dreadful Scathe
3rd-September-2004, 12:29 PM
:) Maybe he's a lib-dem in disguise :)

Personally, I dont think smacking should be needed - what i object to is too many rules being forced on parents. Many first time parents, having just pulled their child out of the way of an approaching truck, could feasibly give their child a smack out of sheer shock. Should they be carted off to the police station for this ? Rigid rules are baaaaad!

Andy McGregor
3rd-September-2004, 01:32 PM
:) Maybe he's a lib-dem in disguise :)

I'm certainly not the kind of lib-dem you get around here. Maybe that's why there's no Conservatives in Scotland: they've all joined the lib-dems by mistake :devil:


Personally, I dont think smacking should be needed - what i object to is too many rules being forced on parents. Many first time parents, having just pulled their child out of the way of an approaching truck, could feasibly give their child a smack out of sheer shock. Should they be carted off to the police station for this ? Rigid rules are baaaaad!

I mostly agree with this. However, the police usually use their judgement in cases of assault between adults and don't usually prosecute unless there's actual bodily harm. So I see no reason not to have extend the current law which protects adults to allow it to provide the same protection for children. To be the victim of assault day-to-day, from your own parents must be soul-destroying. We need a law to protect children against this behavior. And we need a law so those parents know they are doing wrong and run the risk of prison if they continue to do so. At the moment they can hide behind an ancient law (1860) permitting parents to administer "reasonable chastisement".

How can any chastisement be reasonable? If people knew that smacking their kids was illegal they'd think twice and find a new punishment which wasn't an assault - and, hopefully, one which actually taught children a more meaningful lesson.

Gadget
3rd-September-2004, 01:45 PM
If people knew that smacking their kids was illegal they'd think twice and find a new punishment which wasn't an assault - and, hopefully, one which actually taught children a more meaningful lesson.
No, they wouldn't. They would just let their kids get away with blue murder. I think that's what has been/is happening just now - parents frightened to smack their children and thinking that's the only form of disapline that works, therefore not giving any chastisement at all (or any that works.)

Andy McGregor
3rd-September-2004, 01:54 PM
No, they wouldn't. They would just let their kids get away with blue murder. I think that's what has been/is happening just now - parents frightened to smack their children and thinking that's the only form of disapline that works, therefore not giving any chastisement at all (or any that works.)

Maybe it's a parental education thing. And it's a carrot and stick thing too. Do you offer an incentive to be good or do you thump them if they're bad? Of course children need to know they will receive a punishment if they're caught breaking the rules - how does that differ from adult life?

Foofs
3rd-September-2004, 01:54 PM
Just some observations:

Why shouldn't the EDHR apply to children and adults alike? It is a declaration of HUMAN rights not ADULT rights - or are children not human?

The use of the term 'reasonable' in a legal sense may seem absurd but it is useful - and is used in a wide range of circumstances. Therefore to say 'reasonable' chastisement is unworkable is to say that most of the current criminal law is likewise unworkable - should it all be change to ultra strict rules?

I will say this outright though - people DO need to want to be parents in order to give their children half a chance (IMHO).

Dreadful Scathe
3rd-September-2004, 02:00 PM
yup I agree. Its not going to be that clear cut. Not every parent is as good a parent as Andy sounds.

You'll get parents who'll smack regardless of rules and maybe they'll get locked up - their children may well end up in social care.

You'll also get parents who will go for no chastisement whatsoever and are unable to come up with an alternative. What kind of children will they bring up ?

Its not the average, sensible parents that are the issue - its the minority parents that are the problem. Leave the laws as they are - 'reasonable chastisement' sounds perfect, its up to police and social services to interpret this. Whats the point in introducing new laws, won't it just confuse the issue further and cause other unforseen social problems ?

Lets have some more parents on here - Im discussing this from the 'got no kids' perspective. :)

Andy McGregor
3rd-September-2004, 02:16 PM
Just some observations:

Why shouldn't the EDHR apply to children and adults alike? It is a declaration of HUMAN rights not ADULT rights - or are children not human?

This is what I think should happen. It should be against the law to assault anyone. At the moment a dog has more protection against being beaten than a child has in his or her own home. This can not be right.


The use of the term 'reasonable' in a legal sense may seem absurd but it is useful - and is used in a wide range of circumstances. Therefore to say 'reasonable' chastisement is unworkable is to say that most of the current criminal law is likewise unworkable - should it all be change to ultra strict rules?

It not the use of 'reasonable' that is being questioned by me, I think the use of this word is essential in English law. It's the 'chastisement' bit that I have a problem with. And what 'ultra-strict' law is being suggested? All that is being suggested is that a current law is extended to protect children as well as adults.

Gadget
3rd-September-2004, 02:19 PM
Maybe it's a parental education thing. And it's a carrot and stick thing too. Do you offer an incentive to be good or do you thump them if they're bad? Of course children need to know they will receive a punishment if they're caught breaking the rules - how does that differ from adult life?
Yes; you offer a carrot incentive for good behaviour, but if there is no 'stick' for bad behaviour, how do you punish them? There is white, and grey, but no black. Does this not breed an indifference to breaking the rules and an indifference to seeing rules being broken? You get a reward for being good, but being bad is the same as staying neutral.

Foofs
3rd-September-2004, 02:29 PM
All that is being suggested is that a current law is extended to protect children as well as adults.

That would lead to the law being (/remaining) different in Scotland versus the rest of the UK... (mind you - does that matter). The problem then becomes the one discussed above - do all black letter assaults = prosecution? (E.g. a smack to stop a child sticking their finger in a plug socket.)

MartinHarper
3rd-September-2004, 02:36 PM
Why shouldn't the EDHR apply to children and adults alike? It is a declaration of HUMAN rights not ADULT rights - or are children not human?

The EU convention on human rights is a nice piece of work, IMO. However, it doesn't appear to contain any right to freedom from smacking, either for children or adults.

Dreadful Scathe
3rd-September-2004, 02:37 PM
Of course all Im saying is that the current law is enough. Social Workers do a difficult job but theres not enough of them (in one areas in Scotland Social Work staff are at 30% compliment). I'd disagree with Andy about a dog having more protection - Children are extremely well protected these days, bruises will be spotted and questioned very quickly. Maybe we cant see what goes on in the home, but an extension of the current law is not going to change that!

My view on 'chastisement' however, does not including smacking children, I wouldnt think there would be a need. I'd go for the loss of privileges option which certainly works if consistently applied.

I meant to mention this earlier but I remember an Oprah show about childrens punishment once, years ago, where Oprah interviewed a lovely religious couple who refused to lay hands "given to them by god" on their children if they misbehaved...they used sticks instead, they even had lengths of stick in the car in case they needed them when out. Take that!! Thwack! I thought that was a tad extreme, maybe its just me ;) And if that happened here, you can guarantee that people would be shocked, the police would be called and something would be done WITH THE CURRENT LAW ;)

latinlover
3rd-September-2004, 02:58 PM
There are some simple ingredients to bringing up your children properly - you've got to want to bring them up well and you've got to put a lot of work into doing it.
:yeah:
I see many parents in supermarkets giving their children a serious beating for asking questions or speaking too much - IMHO this is a failure of the parents rather than the children. And, it is an assault. Could you stand up in court and say "I slapped his legs 10 times because he kept asking for a packet of Smarties"? Which brings us to the question, what justifiable smacking? And the next question, what degree of smacking is reasonable and what is unreasonable? As a parent I have smacked my children 3 times, one twice, one once and one not at all. Each time it was a gentle slap on the upper arm when they were too young to understand that what they'd done was very dangerous - like running into moving traffic. But, if I've never smacked my youngest because, by the time she came along, I'd worked out better ways to get the message across. And I wouldn't ever have smacked the other two if I'd been a more experienced parent at the time :tears:

The good news is that they don't seem to have been harmed and are growing up to be well adjusted ladies :flower:I am very happy to agree with andy on this one even though he IS a tory :D
I can't pretend to have never smacked my children over 21 years,especially in the early years with the older two ,but as a parent of two batches of two (ten year gap) I must say that I have hardly ever felt the need (or the URGE)to smack the twins,(2nd batch) as experience has shown me that there are other,equally effective ways of administering discipline - for one thing I am more patient and able to figure out that they do do what I tell them in the end , without the need for shouting or violence
(one should never rule out bribery or blackmail!)
of course whether they grow up to be reasonably well-balanced individuals or complete Psychotics remains to be seen, but the older two are ok so far...

i have to say that second time around we've been more relaxed and I've probably been a better father to the twins than I was at the same ages to the older girls.....but they still talk to me! :waycool:

children Do need to be protected from abuse but I find the current position where teachers and the police have no authority to punish to be ridiculous
I agree with DS, political correctness has gone too far :mad:

Gadget
3rd-September-2004, 03:20 PM
OK, so it's 2am and your child wakes you saying they want to sleep in your bed...
"why?""because I do.""what's wrong with your bed?""but I want to sleep in your bed!""did you have a bad dream?" *shakes head* "do you want something to drink?" *shakes head* "I want to sleep in your bed." "it's late, everyone else is sleeping in there own beds {:innocent:} please go back to bed.""NO, I want to sleep in your bed!""There's no room; we fill the bed""no, you move over there, I lie in middle""No Logan, you have your own bed - you're teddies will be missing you""but i want to sleep in your bed""No - it's dark outside; the sun has gone to bed; it's sleep time - go to bed.""I want to sleep in your bed!" *Waaaaa*"Logan, please be quiet, you'll wake your brother; you're not getting into our bed"*Waaaaaa*.....etc

This conversation happens every other night and you need to get up refreshed for a hard day's work {:confused:} tomorrow:
So do you...
A) Give in and let her crawl in beside you
B) Let her crawl in until she falls asleep and carry her back to her own bed
C) Leave her to scream at the bottom of your bed and hope she will just go back herself
D) Get up, give her cuddles, calm her and try again to put her back to bed
E) Get up, lift her and put her back to her own bed screaming
F) Get up, shout at her and threaten her into getting back into her own bed
G) Get up, smack her bum, put her to bed screaming; close the door and ignore her, or
H) Something else.

What do you think a "Good Parent" would do?

{I've got a good "social work" story/dilema based on reality as well, but I'll type that up later}

Dreadful Scathe
3rd-September-2004, 04:35 PM
why is 'wonder why you called her Logan' not an option :)

...no no its nice, just makes me think of 'Logans Run' :)

I would do D) and E) Get up, cuddle, try to calm her and probably fail,carry her to her own bed - if you do that every night she'll get the message...children arent stupid , they're just persistant :) In fact, a childs mind is different to an adults in one major regard, they do something without considering the consequences* - which makes consistancy on the part of parents all the more effective - if the kiddies get the same outcome all the time then it doesnt matter that the bairns dont consider the consqeuences, they already know what they are :)


*theres probably some adults reading who think they dont often consider consequences, you rebellious types you...rubbish i say! Other than instant reaction to something, EVERYTHING you do requires consideration, although perhaps some of it is habitual but thats experience innit :)


Go on Gadget - whats your social work story ? :)

MartinHarper
3rd-September-2004, 04:41 PM
your child wakes you saying they want to sleep in your bed...

Get her to sleep in your brother's bed instead.

Gadget
3rd-September-2004, 05:39 PM
why is 'wonder why you called her Logan' not an option :)
Why not? It's wolverene's name too. (that wasn't why we called her it BTW) I don't know anyone by that name, so she can make it her own.

I would do D) and E) Get up, cuddle, try to calm her and probably fail,carry her to her own bed - if you do that every night she'll get the message...children arent stupid , they're just persistant :)
So you are now rewarding your child for getting you up every night; giving them attention and loving acceptance - special 1 on 1 time. Is that likley to stop them doing it tomorrow night? They're not stupid. :)

Go on Gadget - whats your social work story ? :)
Later... it's quite intricate.


Get her to sleep in your brother's bed instead.I'm trying to stop that as well; she climbs in and steals her brothers passifier (another thing I'm trying to break her from :rolleyes: )

Gadget
3rd-September-2004, 10:27 PM
OK, this is going to be a long post, so get your coco or ignore it and go-do-something-more-interesting-instead.

Background:
Child A is eight years old. She is very good at taking facts and spinning half-truths from them to make people listen to her; example, Two kids playing on trampoline - one falls off. Child A witnesses it and helps the fallen child in to mum for a sympathy cuddle before she goes and bounces again. The next day, she had it recounted and spread how the first one pushed the second off. A fallacy that had the parents of the pusher phoning to apologise for their child.
Child A also has a brother of 5 (child B) and a sister of 2. The brother is not as adept as his sister, but getting there.

Child C is a neighbouring child that goes to the same class as child A. They were "friends" of sorts. (well, you go through school with someone; they are friends) She also has a brother (child D) who is so honest that he gets himself grounded by volunteering information on his own actions; example, Another girl is bullying his sister. He hits her. He tells his mum - who has brought him up to not hit girls - and he gets grounded for a month.

The story:
It's a Thursday. Child A, Child B, Child C and Child D walking home from school as they normally do. For some reason, child A covers child C in spittle. Her coat is wet from it. When Child C gets home, her mother asks why it's wet and is told. The mother is obviously concerned and not wanting to jump to any conclusions, phones the mother of child A.
Who goes off the deep end. Her children know right from wrong. They know what's acceptable behaviour and that is not it! A screaming match ensues where child A is held against a wall and shouted at, followed by being shut in the pantry.

Friday. The mother of child A is feeling guilty and says, "look, I lost it; I'm sorry - do you want to take the day off and we'll have a girlie pampering." Well duh?
Meanwhile child B goes to school. In the playground, a supervising teacher hears "...she was in big trouble... mum strangled her, threw her in a cupboard and locked it.... she's dead... " and a few more choice exaggerations from the five year old.
At the end of classes, Child B is taken aside and quizzed by teachers.

Child B is escorted home by a social worker to speak to his mother.

The social worker 'interviews' child A. Child A made a good story even better.

It's 8:00pm. The police have just taken children AB and their sister from their family and cut off all communication with anyone they know.

It's Sunday. Child A is passed to a temporary foster carer while child B and his sister are taken to another. The Mother and Father can't do anything about getting them back or even arranging visiting/talking to their children until Monday.

A week has passed. They managed to arrange to get some clothes and personal stuff to the kids on the Monday. They saw their children on the afternoon of the Wednesday - under supervision. There have been two interviews with the police and social services. The parents are now on the child protection registry. There is a court hearing on Tuesday and they should have their children back in their own beds after that. Neither have slept very much.

It's Wednesday and the children are staying with their gran (two doors down from their own house) The parents are allowed to 'interact' with them, but the kids can't go home until some piece of paperwork is shuffled somewhere. The mother has to go to "good parenting classes" for a month or so.

Now.
How do you discipline your children? You're scared that anything you do will result in them being taken away. What once was an outgoing 3-year old is now acting introverted. The 5 year old understands a bit more, but is even more of a 'cry-baby' than he was before. Child A is getting better at disguising the truth and fabricating plausible realities.

Child A is banned from even seeing Child C (the last time they happend to be in the same place for two mins, child A was grounded for a month.)

Chid A's mother blames everything on Child C or more precisely her mother. Child A's Aunt and her mother (sisters) used to spend half there lives talking to each other - Child C's mother is best friends with the Aunt. A's mother will now cross to the other side of the road (and bundle her kids with her) rather than even acknowledge the existance of her sister and their kids of the same age.


How do you sort this mess out?(*) Was it really in the best interests of the children to be ripped from, then isolated from friends, family and loved ones? What good has come out of the intervention that third parties took? If you were recounted the same story, would you have called in social services? Were they right in their actions?

(*)really, if you have any good ideas; let me know - the 'aunt' is my wife. {and people still ask why I don't watch soap operas :rolleyes:}

Dreadful Scathe
3rd-September-2004, 10:48 PM
Why not? It's wolverene's name too. (that wasn't why we called her it BTW) I don't know anyone by that name, so she can make it her own.

er....except for Wolverine obviously..and Logan from Logans run :) but its cool on a girl too ;)


So you are now rewarding your child for getting you up every night; giving them attention and loving acceptance - special 1 on 1 time. Is that likley to stop them doing it tomorrow night? r

Rewarding ? by not letting them do what they want and ending them back to bed ? hmm how do you work that one out ?(they wouldnt get the cuddles the next night, that'd larn 'em)


and steals her brothers passifier


Pacifier ? What!! you turned American? - its a "dummy tit" where I come from :)

Andy McGregor
3rd-September-2004, 10:56 PM
(*)really, if you have any good ideas; let me know - the 'aunt' is my wife. {and people still ask why I don't watch soap operas :rolleyes:}

Book to see your MP at one of his/her surgeries. H M Gov is ultimately responsible for the actions of Social Services. If you are unhappy with the "Services" you receive your MP should know. I've been involved in a few of these cases and it's surpising how quickly things move once your MP has asked a few questions.

On the other hand, does anyone have a good story with a happy ending to tell about the actions of Social Services?

Gadget
3rd-September-2004, 11:10 PM
I've been involved in a few of these cases and it's surpising how quickly things move once your MP has asked a few questions.
But what could be done? Everyone followed the paths that they saw as 'right' - the only thing that may have been slicker was the paperwork and availability of someone to deal with things on the weekend; the descisions would still have been the same, the actions taken the same, the feelings from these the same.

And anyway, Alex Salmond is a bit busy just now :wink:


Rewarding ? by not letting them do what they want and ending them back to bed ? hmm how do you work that one out ?(they wouldnt get the cuddles the next night, that'd larn 'em)
Exactly my point - this happens every other night. The child gets 'rewarded' for getting up by cuddles and loving understanding - the "carrot" is given for a 'bad' action, therefore encouraging them to do it again....

next.

Dreadful Scathe
3rd-September-2004, 11:22 PM
Exactly my point - this happens every other night. The child gets 'rewarded' for getting up by cuddles and loving understanding - the "carrot" is given for a 'bad' action, therefore encouraging them to do it again....
.


ah point taken. As I said though cuddles the first night, no more cuddles ater :)

I bet its really that easy ;)

Heather
4th-September-2004, 09:17 AM
But, I do think legislation has gone too far. Here is an example of rules gone mad that I experienced a few years ago. My youngest daughter kept on getting nits :eek: We'd inspect her hair every night and treat her for them, clear them up - and then she'd get nits again, and again, and again. The situation got so bad the expensive prep school she attended arranged for a visit from a nurse to educate us about nits. Of course, we went along. The nurse told us we were doing everything we could and were getting it right and also that we were only the second parents to see her in 2 hours! The problem was that some other parents weren't doing anything about their children's nits and their children kept re-infesting our daughter. I asked why the school hadn't done anything about it and was told that they weren't allowed to tell the child or the parents due to the rules and regulations!!!


I totally empathise with this. Just a couple of weeks ago my I found the same thing in my daughters hair, I treated her immediately (not a nice job) but lo and behold 10 days later she has them again!! Another day off school to treat them but unless the child in her class who has them and is passing them around, is also treated, them my poor daughter can, in theory,get them every week.
The school is powerless to act other than send out a general letter, to the effect that an outbreak of head lice has been reported and that parents should check their child's head.
As a parent, I find this totally unsatisfactory, as some parents do not even read letters sent home, let alone act on them!!
As a teacher, I find this totally ridiculous, as even whilst aware that a child in the class is constantly infested with headlice and whose parents totally disregard any communication from the school, I am powerless to do anything about it, other than wear my hair up and avoid contact with the said child!!!!!
I personally would have no objection to a nurse rifling through my child's hair every wee while, indeed I often ask the nurse to look through mine.
Apparently they are not allowed to do so as it constitutes 'an infringement of the child's civil liberties'. How daft is that!!!
Bring back the 'Nit Nurse', and let's get rid of stupid bureaucracy!!!! :angry:

:hug:
Heather.

Andy McGregor
4th-September-2004, 10:22 AM
But what could be done? Everyone followed the paths that they saw as 'right' - the only thing that may have been slicker was the paperwork and availability of someone to deal with things on the weekend; the descisions would still have been the same, the actions taken the same, the feelings from these the same.

Firstly, the parents should be removed from the child protection register. Secondly, there has been an adverse social consequence of the actions of Social Services. They believed a child's lies, they probably have to rather than ignore what could be true. But the consquence of their actions has been far worse than the consequence of their inaction. My stance would be to approach Social Services, outline the situation as it has developed and ask for their help and advice in putting things back on a even keel. Someone at Social Services must have seen this kind of thing before and must have strategies to manage the situation. Someone at Social Services must know what they're doing - please tell me they do :tears:


And anyway, Alex Salmond is a bit busy just now :wink:


Your MP must always make time for his constituents - it's his job to do so :angry:


Exactly my point - this happens every other night. The child gets 'rewarded' for getting up by cuddles and loving understanding - the "carrot" is given for a 'bad' action, therefore encouraging them to do it again....

I've been there, almost exactly the same situation, but every night. And a repeat performance if we put our sleeping daughter back in her own bed while she was asleep. This interrupted sleep took its toll on both of us and we were tired and irritable much of the time. So, after months and months we took the advice given to us by the Health Visitor. It goes like this;

Every baby/child wakes up a few times in the night. Often they just go back to sleep. But, if they cry for attention/ask to sleep in mummy and daddy's bed and get cuddles/let in bed they will do that every time they wake up. You create the problem by giving the cuddles and giving in to their request. The answer is to calmly insist that they go back to their bed, if necessary take them back, and never give in.

On the first night this resulted in 1 hour and 10 minutes of crying at about 1am and about 30 mins of crying at about 4am. The second night there were two sessions of crying of about 15 mins each. The third night onwards there was no crying. This sounds easy, it was not easy at all, by the end of the first session of tears Sue was crying and I was close to tears as well. If you do this don't expect to get much sleep on the first night - but then you weren't sleeping much anyway! We were so desperate for a complete night's sleep we persevered. Remember, you need to be wide awake for your kids during the day, you owe it to the children to be fit to play with them and enjoy their company rather than resent them keeping you awake at nights.

I have passed on this advice to a few parents who have children/babies that keep them awake at nights. It has always worked.

DianaS
4th-September-2004, 11:30 AM
I totally empathise with this. Just a couple of weeks ago my I found the same thing in my daughters hair, I treated her immediately (not a nice job) but lo and behold 10 days later she has them again!! Another day off school to treat them but unless the child in her class who has them and is passing them around, is also treated, them my poor daughter can, in theory,get them every week.
The school is powerless to act other than send out a general letter, to the effect that an outbreak of head lice has been reported and that parents should check their child's head.
As a parent, I find this totally unsatisfactory, as some parents do not even read letters sent home, let alone act on them!!
As a teacher, I find this totally ridiculous, as even whilst aware that a child in the class is constantly infested with headlice and whose parents totally disregard any communication from the school, I am powerless to do anything about it, other than wear my hair up and avoid contact with the said child!!!!!
I personally would have no objection to a nurse rifling through my child's hair every wee while, indeed I often ask the nurse to look through mine.
Apparently they are not allowed to do so as it constitutes 'an infringement of the child's civil liberties'. How daft is that!!!
Bring back the 'Nit Nurse', and let's get rid of stupid bureaucracy!!!! :angry:

:hug:
Heather.
I had a similar problem with Alex when he was 11. His hair was short but he came home time and time again with lice. No-one else in our family had them and Jason was really sweet. He made Alex feel really okay about it all (he was 14) once complaining to me it wasn't fair Alex would share his "friends" with him. How Alex felt was really important and I used to tell him that the nits were having dinner parties and wild times when I looked through and found some.
He didn't like it though and when I talked to the school about how much it was affecting his confidence and self esteem, they explained that they knew about the problem but to actually lay hands on a child to check for nits constituted an assault. It was awful because the child was evidentally being neglected, and other children were moving away from him.
I used a lotion that nits hate the smell of (its really nice though I think it has tea tree oil in it) and every detereant we could lay our hands on.

Eventually Alex asked if he could go to school wearing a swimming cap, children find their own solutions but since he's been in secondary schol he hasn't had any more incidences.

Do try the lotion, it was effective!
But if your really miffed the swimming cap in an absolute sure winner :hug:

Andy McGregor
4th-September-2004, 01:52 PM
Do try the lotion, it was effective!


The most effective treatment we've found is a mousse. Once we'd started using that is was so easy compared to the old method of conditioner and a nit comb - although it was quite satifying to actually see the little blighters washed down the plug-hole :clap:

jivecat
4th-September-2004, 02:47 PM
Incredible thread , this. It's so personal!! A timely reminder to me, as a child-free teacher, of the passionate strength of feeling a parent has for his/her children.


As a teacher, I find this totally ridiculous, as even whilst aware that a child in the class is constantly infested with headlice and whose parents totally disregard any communication from the school, I am powerless to do anything about it, other than wear my hair up and avoid contact with the said child!!!!!
I personally would have no objection to a nurse rifling through my child's hair every wee while, indeed I often ask the nurse to look through mine.
Apparently they are not allowed to do so as it constitutes 'an infringement of the child's civil liberties'. How daft is that!!!
Bring back the 'Nit Nurse', and let's get rid of stupid bureaucracy!!!! :angry:

:hug:
Heather.


Funnily enough, even though I've been a teacher for 25 years, I've never actually caught headlice myself, even when I've seen them rambling rampantly through the hair of children in my class. And I'm sure that occasionally there must have been head to head contact. I heard once about a theory that headlice prefer childrens's heads: adults don't get them because of the change in hormones/chemistry which the bugs don't like. DianaS said her son no longer got them at secondary school - could it be he'd reached puberty and this is the reason? Perhaps a secondary school teacher could tell us if the usual infant head lice epidemic still happens when they get older.

Now, why am I discussing headlice on a forum about dance?

Dreadful Scathe
4th-September-2004, 06:57 PM
this is the Chit Chat area, you can discuss anything you like :)

I assumed that the school nurse would still check children for lice its bizarre that this is no longer the case - i remember getting checked at school.

Tiggerbabe
4th-September-2004, 07:27 PM
i remember getting checked at school.
Did you keep your hat on though? :wink: Don't think I've ever seen a smurf hatless. :hug:

Gadget
4th-September-2004, 10:47 PM
Your MP must always make time for his constituents - it's his job to do so :angry:
Sorry; this was an attempt at humor since he's just been elected leader of the SNP again.

I've been there, almost exactly the same situation, but every night. ~snip~ I have passed on this advice to a few parents who have children/babies that keep them awake at nights. It has always worked.
:D I know - and it's the solution I have been trying for a long time :rolleyes: - unfortunatly she also suffers from night terrors (http://www.nightterrors.org/) {<-scary for any parent} and has my stubborness with my wife's temper. Now I tell her to go back to bed, and she says "you take me". :rolleyes: bloody kid's too smart for her own good.

Re: nitts - I remember getting tem in secondary school, and I remember being checked by the school nurse in primary school - but it wasn't a regular thing; once and that was it.
I did hear that they preferred clean hair, bt whether that was just my parents trying to re-assure me I don't know.

TheTramp
4th-September-2004, 11:27 PM
I remember being checked for nits in school. Didn't have any. Also didn't feel particularly assaulted.

Trampy

Andy McGregor
5th-September-2004, 07:28 PM
I remember being checked for nits in school. Didn't have any. Also didn't feel particularly assaulted.

Trampy

And look how well-adjusted you turned out :innocent:

ElaineB
5th-September-2004, 10:51 PM
My daughter is now 16 and half and recently caught nits again! :angry: This time from a 17 year old, so I don't think hormonal changes work on the little blighters (nits that is, not teenagers!).

Re the smacking scenario, I have seen Adults smack their (misbehaving?) children, when words would have worked. Those children in turn have hit other children when they have been displeased by something another child has done. The reason? They have been taught that violence is the way to solve issues. Recently, I had cause to discuss this with a friend who was smacking her child - the smacking of couse did not work, as the child just became more billigerent. The only thing that I could think of saying to her in the end was 'well, how did smacking your child make you feel?', to which, the answer was 'bad'. I can only hope that the realisation that a) smacking did not change her childs behaviour and b) that it made her feel bad, may have shocked her into rethinking her attitude. She was beaten by her parents as a child and resents it - funny how the circle can continue to turn!

Now, advice please! Teenagers! How do you turn them from selfish introverted monsters into something more human?? My daughter agreed to accompany myself and my mother for my mothers bi-annual 'airing'. My daughter made it clear from the start that she was there under sufferance, hardly strung together a sentance, used her mobile phone until she had 'white finger syndrome' from texting and either walked in front or behind us. Her name is Joanna, but I am thinking of renaming her 'Kevinne'.

Whenever I talk to her, I either get yes or no, or am treated to a full blown political debate on the rights and wrongs of the world. She attends a private School and has very left wing views, but only seems to be bothered to see me if it involves receiving money from me! Contrary or what!

Hmmm, having reread the last bit, perhaps she is normal after all! Seriously though, do I just put up with being treated like something she has just stepped in, or is there a way by which she can see that actually, I am also a human being? Advices oh wise forumites - please!!!


Elaine

Andy McGregor
5th-September-2004, 11:39 PM
Now, advice please! Teenagers! How do you turn them from selfish introverted monsters into something more human??

-snip-

Advices oh wise forumites - please!!!


Elaine

It sounds like we have identical daughters :tears:

I also have daughters aged 18 and 12 :eek:

My advice is to be patient. Remember how we put our parents through it and look how lovely we turned out :innocent:

One thing I have found useful is to get to know their friends. My daugher's friends tell her I'm a cool dad - at least compared to their own dads ...

TheTramp
5th-September-2004, 11:50 PM
{ODA Mode most definitely on}

Teenagers! How do you turn them from selfish introverted monsters into something more human??

It sounds like we have identical daughters
Maybe by smacking them when they were naughty when they were young??

All previous generations of children were (potentially) smacked. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's really only the last generation of children that have had legal protection. Yet, it hasn't really seriously damaged, either mentally or physically any (all?) of us - yes, I too was smacked too on occasion (but never deserved it of course :innocent: ). Maybe that's why these days, children seem to get away with so much more than they used to? Lack of discipline?
{ODA Mode off}

Not being a parent, I haven't really ever had to confront the decision or think about it too much. I just found it interesting that two people who've said that they don't think that smacking is the way to go, have then almost immediately followed it up by saying that their children are selfish, introverted monsters (although, I did take both of those comments - especially Andy's - with a huge pinch of salt). Hence, most definitely said in an ODA mode :cheers:

Trampy

Andy McGregor
5th-September-2004, 11:55 PM
, have then almost immediately followed it up by saying that their children are selfish, introverted monsters (although, I did take both of those comments - especially Andy's - with a huge pinch of salt). Hence, most definitely said in an ODA mode :cheers:

Trampy

My 16 year old would be better described as sulky and uncommunicative when doing something she doesn't want to - rather than introverted - but that could easily be mistaken for introversion.

But when she's getting her own way or wants to get her own way she is delightful ...

Gadget
6th-September-2004, 12:06 AM
My 16 year old would be better described as sulky and uncommunicative when doing something she doesn't want to - rather than introverted - but that could easily be mistaken for introversion.

But when she's getting her own way or wants to get her own way she is delightful ...
:rofl: But that's just women!!!

Gadget
6th-September-2004, 12:07 AM
{damn it... think before posting... think before posting...}

Tiggerbabe
6th-September-2004, 12:10 AM
Nah, she would appear to be perfectly normal - my son will be 15 on Tuesday - I seldom get more than a one word answer from him, unless he's looking for money or a lift :wink:

Lory
6th-September-2004, 12:27 AM
Advices oh wise forumites - please!!!


Elaine
Hi Elaine, as a mum of 2 teenagers myself I know it's a toughie but do try to find the good in her, praise her all you can, and try to ignore some of the annoying but harmless things. Don't run her down in front of her mates or siblings, instead tell them how proud you are of her, she might not feel so inclined to upset you! :)

Encourage her to be open and share what's REALLY going on in her life without the fear of you judging her unfavourably, if she knows it's a dead certainty she's going to get told off, she'll clam up and you wont find out anything. :confused:
Like Andy said, encourage her friends into you home, make them VERY welcome! Learn to accept, she IS normal, that her behaviour is sadly typical of the average teenagers! :rolleyes:

Try to take an interest in what makes her tick, even if it means reading up about some obscure goth band! (she'll be impressed :wink: )

Ask her for advise on things sometimes (even if you don't need it), I bet she's more clued up on today's hair products and makeup than you are!

Also think there are times where you have to be a little bit sneaky, :innocent: like if you get wind of something that they might be planning, that might not meet with your approval, instead of coming down hard and saying RIGHT, I know what your planning and it's NOT going to happen! :angry:
Make something up and just sling it casually into a conversation, eg, I heard of a girl on the TV doing 'blah blah' the other day and she got into terrible trouble, (listing your concerns).......I know you'd never do anything like that! Cos your far too sensible and good! Imagine what her mother must have gone through (thoughful sigh), I know you wouldn't want to put me through that, ;) etc. And that's why I'm so proud of YOU! :hug: :whistle:

And lastly, lighten up a little....

Remember when you were that age, I bet some of your BEST and fondest memories are ones of when you were up to no good! I know mine are! :wink:

Lory
6th-September-2004, 12:43 AM
my son will be 15 on Tuesday - I seldom get more than a one word answer from him, unless he's looking for money or a lift :wink:Oi! You lot! Be grateful, my two never shut up! :sick:

Don't know where they get it from! :D :whistle:

MartinHarper
6th-September-2004, 01:10 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's really only the last generation of children that have had legal protection.

Well, as this thread notes, "reasonable chastisement" is still a defence for parents, so this generation has roughly the same protection as others in that sense. The big difference is schools: corporal punishment in schools is forbidden.

Dreadful Scathe
6th-September-2004, 09:26 AM
Well, as this thread notes, "reasonable chastisement" is still a defence for parents, so this generation has roughly the same protection as others in that sense. The big difference is schools: corporal punishment in schools is forbidden.
more than that - a teacher cant even touch a child anymore without being threatened with assault charges. Its funny, but in the schools where the children really need the discipline they are much more aware of their rights over adults and in effect get LESS discipline than in some of the better schools.

jivecat
6th-September-2004, 11:43 AM
My daughter is now 16 and half and recently caught nits again! :angry: This time from a 17 year old, so I don't think hormonal changes work on the little blighters (nits that is, not teenagers!).


Elaine


Looks like I'll have to scrap that theory, then. Thanks for the data!

Andy McGregor
6th-September-2004, 11:57 AM
Looks like I'll have to scrap that theory, then. Thanks for the data!

I think the hormonal thing only applies to boys. Once a boy reaches puberty I'm told he's unlikely to get nits - then again, maybe those nits can't stand being near the baggy trousers teenage boys wear :devil:

ElaineB
6th-September-2004, 01:39 PM
Thanks for the advice Guys, especially Lory! :worthy:

I must admit that yesterday I probably let the initial irritation get in the way of what should have been a very pleasant day and could have rethought my reactions to what I perceived to be a continual assault of 'teenage' behaviour!

As for Tramp - interesting thoughts! When I said 'introverted', I really meant towards myself and her father. No, I don't believe in smacking as I think that an explanation, punishment (withdrawing crisps or video's when she was younger!) worked far better. I am glad to say that she appears to have high moral values (she will turn into a traffic warden I am sure!) and is popular with her peers. She also managed five A's and five B's in her GCSE's, despite by her own admission, very little revision!

I just want to be a friend to my daughter, to pick up the pieces if need be and offer the love and support that she deserves! Just very difficult when she seems to consider grunting to be the best form of communication (to both parents, but not her friends!).

Elaine

Lory
6th-September-2004, 05:18 PM
I just want to be a friend to my daughter, to pick up the pieces if need be and offer the love and support that she deserves! Just very difficult when she seems to consider grunting to be the best form of communication (to both parents, but not her friends!).

Elaine
Aww that's lovely and all we could ever strive to want to be, as a Mum! :hug:

The most important thing, is to tell her just that, she might only grunt her acknowledgement but you can bet it sinks further in that it appears to! :wink: :flower:

Andy McGregor
6th-September-2004, 06:25 PM
I just want to be a friend to my daughter, to pick up the pieces if need be and offer the love and support that she deserves! Just very difficult when she seems to consider grunting to be the best form of communication (to both parents, but not her friends!).

Elaine

I think that, at this age, they seem to define themselves through their friends and their relationships with them. I try to stay in that loop by getting to know their friends. But I've got to be careful not to work too hard at it - it's a difficult and very fine line to tread.

Emma
6th-September-2004, 07:01 PM
I heard once about a theory that headlice prefer childrens's heads: adults don't get them because of the change in hormones/chemistry which the bugs don't like. DianaS said her son no longer got them at secondary school - could it be he'd reached puberty and this is the reason? Perhaps a secondary school teacher could tell us if the usual infant head lice epidemic still happens when they get older.Older children tend not to get headlice mainly because they have less head to head contact (especially boys). Also headlice like clean hair, and adolescent boys don't :cool:

It's a myth that adults don't get headlice. One of the major problems with the headlice epidemic in this contry is that parents tend to treat their children and not themselves (present company excepted, I'm sure...) thus providing a nice safe haven for nits on their own heads. (Mine itches now!)

-This information brought to you by 'daughter of a nit-nurse(retired)' :flower:

On the subject of smacking - I was smacked, and it didn't do *me* any harm....hang on a minute....didn't it? How can I measure that - I've never met the unsmacked me ;). She might have been better adjusted, more confident, and rich (I can dream). I personally believe that there are other forms of discipline which are probably just as effective as a smack, if not moreso. As a teacher I am not allowed to smack, and discipline has never broken down in my classroom (honest). I also realise that it's different with your own kids and that under extreme stress any parent could be forgiven for resorting to smacking. However this doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to avoid it.

As an aside, I went on a course the other day and was told that they have discovered that at a certain stage of development teenagers lack the chemicals which make them motivated. Hardly a surprise to any parent, but perhaps it might help to know they aren't doing it on purpose (well..not ALL the time!!).