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View Full Version : The Hipsters formula - Recipe for a successful club?



Peter
1st-July-2004, 10:51 AM
Amir's (advanced?) musicality class last night was one of the best that I have EVER attended ..

- excellent techniques (eg signalling breaks half a beat ahead, to give the lady time to react)

- fascinating new ideas (eg putting breaks in your dancing at times other than breaks in the music / dancing through the breaks in the music - apparently this is all the rage at USA swing competitions)

- challenging music (eg double bass only jazz / syncopated rhythms)

Not surprising those 4 beginners decided to give up and get a refund after 40 mins!

Lounge Lizard
1st-July-2004, 12:37 PM
Amir's (advanced?) musicality class last night was one of the best that I have EVER attended ..

- excellent techniques (eg signalling breaks half a beat ahead, to give the lady time to react)

- fascinating new ideas (eg putting breaks in your dancing at times other than breaks in the music / dancing through the breaks in the music - apparently this is all the rage at USA swing competitions)

- challenging music (eg double bass only jazz / syncopated rhythms)

Not surprising those 4 beginners decided to give up and get a refund after 40 mins!I thought the wednesday Hipsters was to attract new dancers not scare them off
Surley Tuesday is the advanced class
If hipsters Tues and Wed is now aimed at the 'top' dancers and unsuitable for the beginners has it become an elitest club, depending on other venues such as Ceroc to recruit new dancers, ready fore hipsters to cream them off.
I am not dishing Hipsters,cos they are providing a level of dancing that ceroc are not providing (I guess) - but not adding to the dance pool, is this right?

So is Hipsters correct in (what appears to be) targeting the 'better dancer' and effectivle excluding beginners from their 'elite' club
Is Ceroc wrong in not providing this level of dance teaching (and if Ceroc do provide real advanced classes then Hipsters market their product better cos we all know about it)

Would it not be better for amir to teach on Tuesdays (as he used to) and Roger to teach, Wednesdays, Roger is the Wednesday DJ, he is one of the most respected and experienced teachers on the MJ circuit and could be more beginner friendly

Must be enough there for a heated debate and Ideas, and I know the Hipsters team read the forum so no nrrd to be polite :wink:
LL (in a controversial mood)

spindr
1st-July-2004, 01:05 PM
I am not dishing Hipsters,cos they are providing a level of dancing that ceroc are not providing (I guess) - but not adding to the dance pool, is this right?

Hmmm, dishing == dissing?? Get down wid' da kidz Pete, it's well wick'? :)

Perhaps you could view Hipsters as adding to the MJ dance pool, by keeping certain dancers interested in MJ -- rather than having them leave for more exotic and technical dances like Salsa, AT, WCS, etc. And of course showing intermediates that there's more room to grow. And of course encouraging the use of "non-classic" MJ music -- unlike other venues -- hey, I can be controversial too!! :)

SpinDr.

Lounge Lizard
1st-July-2004, 01:49 PM
Perhaps you could view Hipsters as adding to the MJ dance pool, by keeping certain dancers interested in MJ
snip
. And of course encouraging the use of "non-classic" MJ music -- unlike other venues -- hey, I can be controversial too!! :)

SpinDr.errr I dont think Hipsters is the only venue that expands the music - I play at least two NEW unheard MJ SUITABLE tracks at my venues EVERY week then there are many DJ's playing great new music,
Re your other comments - learn to dance at Ceroc and THEN go to Hipsters
Ok if it works, but as they have Lindy on a Tuesday, why not WCS + MJ on a Wednesday

spindr
1st-July-2004, 03:19 PM
errr I dont think Hipsters is the only venue that expands the music - I play at least two NEW unheard MJ SUITABLE tracks at my venues EVERY week then there are many DJ's playing great new music,

Thought you might bite :) (the pedant in me is wondering how do DJs know an unheard track is MJ suitable tho').


Re your other comments - learn to dance at Ceroc and THEN go to Hipsters. Ok if it works, but as they have Lindy on a Tuesday, why not WCS + MJ on a Wednesday

Learn to dance wherever, keep enjoying and progressing wherever -- Hipsters is one option -- there are others. As for WCS + MJ on a Wednesday sounds great to me, tho' perhaps Boogie Woogie + MJ would be even more fun!

SpinDr.

DavidB
1st-July-2004, 03:22 PM
- signalling breaks half a beat ahead, to give the lady time to react
- putting breaks in your dancing at times other than breaks in the music / dancing through the breaks in the music - apparently this is all the rage at USA swing competitions
- double bass only jazz / syncopated rhythms
Of course Franck was organinsing workshops teaching this sort of thing last year...

Dance Demon
1st-July-2004, 04:00 PM
(the pedant in me is wondering how do DJs know an unheard track is MJ suitable tho').


Probably because all the good DJs are also dancers themselves...(Lounge Lizard, Emma, Dan Hudson, Roger Chin, Steve Lampert...to name a few
:wink: )....... I know that I always try dancing to a new track before unleashing it on to the punters.I've been to nights where the DJ isn't a modern Jiver, and they sem to play more tracks that are hard to MJ to IMHO.

ChrisA
1st-July-2004, 04:05 PM
I thought the wednesday Hipsters was to attract new dancers not scare them off
Surely Tuesday is the advanced class

Not any more. When Viktor left there were a few weeks of limbo, then Amir moved to Weds and Roger took over the 8pm spot on Tues.

I think they're quite brave taking the explicit 'we don't cater for beginners' tack - and there's been a lot of debate about that - but at the end of the day, they've made the decision and implemented it without being wishy-washy about it.

And the numbers in Amir's classes are definitely justifying the decision. Given that it's an hour and three quarters of solid Amir, with no real break, I think the fact that the numbers are higher than they were when Viktor was teaching on Wednesdays must count for something.



If hipsters Tues and Wed is now aimed at the 'top' dancers and unsuitable for the beginners has it become an elitest club, depending on other venues such as Ceroc to recruit new dancers, ready fore hipsters to cream them off.

It's not so much that Wednesday is aimed at top dancers - many of the people in Amir's classes are not advanced yet by any means - it's that it's aimed at people who choose to undertake longer term learning - technique, style, and musicality, rather than a quick fix of four moves.

It's not elitist at all. Amir is incredibly patient, and teaches it all in a way that allows even people with relatively little experience to learn a little at a time - so pretty well anyone would benefit. The beginners last night that left after 40 minutes were very new indeed. A few months experience elsewhere would probably be beneficial first for people not prepared to throw themselves in at the deep end.

Chris

ChrisA
1st-July-2004, 04:06 PM
Of course Franck was organinsing workshops teaching this sort of thing last year...
Workshops, sure.

But would you not say it's unusual to have a weekly class at this level?

Chris

Lounge Lizard
1st-July-2004, 04:37 PM
And the numbers in Amir's classes are definitely justifying the decision. Given that it's an hour and three quarters of solid Amir, with no real break, I think the fact that the numbers are higher than they were when Viktor was teaching on Wednesdays must count for something.


It's not so much that Wednesday is aimed at top dancers - many of the people in Amir's classes are not advanced yet by any means - it's that it's aimed at people who choose to undertake longer term learning - technique, style, and musicality, rather than a quick fix of four moves.
Chrisso what are the numbers 50 - 100 - 150- 200? (Hipsters is a 200+ capacity venue)
Would it be something that others should adopt or given the fact that it is london based in probably the most famous MJ venue in the UK with arguably the top uk teacher are the numbers low in comparison to other venues, eg fleet, dorking. ashtons, woking etc. which I understand all get in excess of 100.
Still find it strange that any dance organisation completly ignores the 'new' dancer, but if the approach is quality not quantity they should be applauded :clap:

Oh and spindr - how do DJ's know if a track is suitable for MJ.....that's what we are paid for, I like to think I can spot a good MJ track on first listen (some take two or three but seldom more)....the problem is having the time to play them all.

Zebra Woman
1st-July-2004, 04:50 PM
I've only done a couple of Amir's classes at Hipsters (because I dance locally or not at all during the week) but would agree that he is teaching things that aren't taught on a normal ceroc night, not in my area anyway. His classes were inspiring, and hard work physically and mentally, and he almost gives you homework too!!

I like to feel I'm getting better, but I honestly haven't improved much over the last couple of years. I couldn't see the way forward for me. Now I can see for miles. I feel like a beginner again... I can see a lot of dancing in the kitchen is in order, standing on one leg when no-one is looking, doing rondes, naughty hands, nice hands.....and then I can dance with the door. :wink:

I think beginners who've had 6 weeks of ceroc would benefit enormously from his teaching, what a foundation they would have. :worthy:

It is very sad that the good dancers travel so far and don't dance locally, I miss them. But it's market forces, and if they didn't go to Hipsters they'd maybe drift off to salsa or lindy, and then we could lose them for good. Salsa usually teaches four levels, very different kettle of fish but maybe Amir is providing the level 3 that ceroc is lacking. :what:

I think his classes would be like a level 5 for salsa dancers. He's like a multi-purpose icing for all cakes IMHO. :worthy:

ChrisA
1st-July-2004, 05:29 PM
so what are the numbers 50 - 100 - 150- 200? (Hipsters is a 200+ capacity venue)

Well they vary during the night - quite a few turn up for the freestyle as they do anywhere. Less than 100 I suppose, but still more in the classes than before all the big changes.

But as you say, it's not just about numbers - and there is undoubtedly a place for teaching that focuses on quality and detail rather than ensuring that the numbers remain high (not that there's anything wrong with that approach either).

Much of what Amir teaches would be very difficult if there were 150 in the room.

Chris

Emma
1st-July-2004, 05:36 PM
Why did Viktor leave?

ChrisA
1st-July-2004, 05:45 PM
Why did Viktor leave?
I don't know. When I asked him he was talking in terms of it being time for a change.

But I was always amazed that the attendance wasn't higher - a teacher of Viktor's stature, interesting classes, beautifully taught, a terrific London venue, good music, open till 11...

... it just never took off particularly for some reason. I was very disappointed to see him go, but had I been in his position I might well have done the same thing.

Chris

Gus
1st-July-2004, 06:01 PM
Would be a shame if he started making more trips up North :wink:

Daisy Chain
1st-July-2004, 06:20 PM
Would be a shame if he started making more trips up North :wink:

:yeah: :drool:

Lounge Lizard
1st-July-2004, 06:51 PM
Perhaps you could view Hipsters as ....
snip... encouraging the use of "non-classic" MJ music -- unlike other venues SpinDr.I do not dance in London but I thought venues such as the Casbah or Ashtons were as good (if not better) for Music than Hipsters.

What is the best London Venue for Music...is it hipsters or are Ceroc better

Does Amir leave all other teachers standing in his shadows
I remember at Southport he taught A good class to 200+ dancers, then Mikey had the next class, and was joined byabout 700 who took part in Mikeys class
LL

under par
1st-July-2004, 07:16 PM
Does Amir leave all other teachers standing in his shadows
I remember at Southport he taught A good class to 200+ dancers, then Mikey had the next class, and was joined byabout 700 who took part in Mikeys class
LL

Mikey IMHO is as much an superb entertainer as a teacher and his class at Southport was excellent fun and so well recieved by the audience.
It was also well advertised by the compere. :whistle:
He teaches cheeky lessons, cheeky moves and I for one really enjoy his style.

Amir IMHO is a primararily an excellent dancer who teaches technically all aspects dance really brilliantly, who can also be entertaining, but entertainment is not necessarily his primary function.

Most teachers teach 4 moves in an hour and teach them very well.

Amir took nearly an hour covering 2 moves. The difficulty level was very high and the technical advice was superb.

Both have there place in MJ and both add to the riches of skills we all seek to have.

ElaineB
1st-July-2004, 09:25 PM
Mikey IMHO is as much an superb entertainer as a teacher and his class at Southport was excellent fun and so well recieved by the audience.
It was also well advertised by the compere. :whistle:
He teaches cheeky lessons, cheeky moves and I for one really enjoy his style.

Amir IMHO is a primararily an excellent dancer who teaches technically all aspects dance really brilliantly, who can also be entertaining, but entertainment is not necessarily his primary function.

Most teachers teach 4 moves in an hour and teach them very well.

Amir took nearly an hour covering 2 moves. The difficulty level was very high and the technical advice was superb.

Both have there place in MJ and both add to the riches of skills we all seek to have.

If only London was nearer to Bristol :tears:


Elaine

Zebra Woman
1st-July-2004, 10:06 PM
Mikey IMHO is as much an superb entertainer as a teacher and his class at Southport was excellent fun and so well recieved by the audience.
It was also well advertised by the compere. :whistle:
He teaches cheeky lessons, cheeky moves and I for one really enjoy his style.

Amir IMHO is a primararily an excellent dancer who teaches technically all aspects dance really brilliantly, who can also be entertaining, but entertainment is not necessarily his primary function.

Both have there place in MJ and both add to the riches of skills we all seek to have.
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Hey Under Par, you're so diplomatic. :flower: :flower:

under par
2nd-July-2004, 12:26 AM
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Hey Under Par, you're so diplomatic. :flower: :flower:

Diplomatic? No! there is room for both, both are great, both very differing styles. I happen to like both styles. If they where c**p I would say as much(diplomatcally maybe) but LL tries to make the point that Amir had 200+ and Mikey 700 at Southport.

Does that make Amir (and Kate BTW) bad teachers. I say no! LL is comparing chalk and cheese, adding 2 + 2 and coming up with David Beckham!!!!!

Mikey had his highly entertaining much talked about STRICTLY SINFUL class and another less sinful class over the weekend. Amir and Kate had a different lesson, less highly publicised, not previously done at a weekend (to my knowledge).
Both their lessons were great.

LLs number crunching does not take account of the graveyard shift either the lesson just after lunchtime (from memory).

I know LL was in his contraversial mood and accept his post in the tongue in cheek way it was supposed to be seen, I just feel comparing Amir and Mikey in such a way detracts from his original point of do Hipsters look after beginners on a Wednesday.

Andy McGregor
2nd-July-2004, 12:54 AM
Does Amir leave all other teachers standing in his shadows? I remember at Southport he taught A good class to 200+ dancers, then Mikey had the next class, and was joined by about 700 who took part in Mikeys class. LL

What point are you making here LL? Are you trying to say that Mikey is a better dancer than Amir? Or a better teacher? Or just more popular?

The Spice Girls were more popular than Opera. But which contains the best musicians?

under par
2nd-July-2004, 12:58 AM
What point are you making here LL? Are you trying to say that Mikey is a better dancer than Amir? Or a better teacher? Or just more popular?

The Spice Girls were more popular than Opera. But which contains the best musicians?

It took me half a page of A4 to reply as you have so succinctly Andy.


Spice Girls where good though zigger zig zag :clap: :kiss: :yeah:

Andy McGregor
2nd-July-2004, 01:03 AM
Spice Girls where good though zigger zig zag :clap: :kiss: :yeah:

Sporty for me please, I've always gone for the most talented:wink:

under par
2nd-July-2004, 01:28 AM
Sporty for me please, I've always gone for the most talented:wink:

Scarey for me I am a masochist........I think.

Did you hear about the sadist who threatened to beat the masochist to within an inch of his life and then didn't...................................

spindr
2nd-July-2004, 01:55 AM
Now here's a positive view on how classes outside London should deal with the higher standard of dancing in the metropolis, from a post I received recently [although it was posted to a distribution list, I've snipped a few details, to protect the guilty and to make a point later]:

"It is recognised that the standard taught in London is higher than that outside of London. At ... we have always tried to maintain our levels at the highest around and together with ..., ... and our other teachers, we are working to get our standard up to the same as in London. The top level class in ... has for a long time been a high level intermediate class. You may have noticed that ...'s class has become progressively more challenging as he brings people up to London Intermediate levels and towards Advanced level techniques and routines. ...'s class will also be working to this goal. As a result, this is likely to mean some people will be asked to change the level they are in to give them the opportunity to pick up on some of the techniques they may be needing individually. Please don't be disheartened if you are asked to change, it is intended to help you and you will become a better dancer for it!"

Shame it was from a Salsa class!

I don't *ever* remember getting quite such a positive, and frankly honest, email from a non-London Jive class -- although I hope someone will prove me wrong.

SpinDr.

P.S. Oh and they kept the price for classes the same as well and they are 90 minutes in total for each level! :)

under par
2nd-July-2004, 02:09 AM
Now here's a positive view on how classes outside London should deal with the higher standard of dancing in the metropolis, from a post I received recently [although it was posted to a distribution list, I've snipped a few details, to protect the guilty and to make a point later]:

"It is recognised that the standard taught in London is higher than that outside of London. At ... we have always tried to maintain our levels at the highest around and together with ..., ... and our other teachers, we are working to get our standard up to the same as in London. The top level class in ... has for a long time been a high level intermediate class. You may have noticed that ...'s class has become progressively more challenging as he brings people up to London Intermediate levels and towards Advanced level techniques and routines. ...'s class will also be working to this goal. As a result, this is likely to mean some people will be asked to change the level they are in to give them the opportunity to pick up on some of the techniques they may be needing individually. Please don't be disheartened if you are asked to change, it is intended to help you and you will become a better dancer for it!"

Shame it was from a Salsa class!

I don't *ever* remember getting quite such a positive, and frankly honest, email from a non-London Jive class -- although I hope someone will prove me wrong.

SpinDr.

P.S. Oh and they kept the price for classes the same as well and they are 90 minutes in total for each level! :)


It sounds fantastcally positive..... there are lessons that could be learned from other styles of dancing apart from other styles of dancing.

Lounge Lizard
2nd-July-2004, 09:19 AM
What point are you making here LL? Are you trying to say that Mikey is a better dancer than Amir? Or a better teacher? Or just more popular?

The Spice Girls were more popular than Opera. But which contains the best musicians?Sorry not trying to make a point
I originaly raised the point over Hipsters no longer catering for new beginners (as implied in another post)
I questioned wherher Hipsters was being elitest or selective towards dancers
are they creaming off the best dancers or keeping them interested in the MJ scene
is an advanced specialist class the way forward or the mass appeal of a good entertainer.
Hipsters is undoubatly the number one club on the MJ scene, it is therefore usefull to make a comparisom with the regular clubs.
As an independant organiser I will look at others around me, question and learn to immprove my venues.
Is Hipsters success based on ...
Best Venue
Best teachers
Best organisation
Best music
The Nigel Factor
also is Hipsters a real success in financial terms for others to emuate - eg If I payed.....
Nigel, Jules, JB, Andy, Rena & Roger to come to my local town hall and have Franco covering the bar would I benefit from it - probably not, would the dancers on the south coast benefit?
So just a dance based discussion, no more, no secret message
LL

Andy McGregor
2nd-July-2004, 09:32 AM
Is Hipsters success based on ...

LL

I think there is an assumption in the above question. It is assumed that Hipsters is a success. IMHO Hipsters is successful in certain terms and not yet successful in others. I also think that the success that Hipsters enjoys is a fragile and changeable thing.

If we consider Ceroc, with a few notable exceptions, my observation is that Ceroc is about the formula, the manual, the CTA training, etc. Hipsters is about the people and the personalities: they are what makes the night what it is. So when the people change at Hipsters the product changes too. When the people change at a Ceroc night the product stays the same.

Lory
2nd-July-2004, 10:43 AM
Is Hipsters success based on ...
Best Venue
Best teachers
Best organisation
Best music
The Nigel Factor
LL
I think you've missed one major factor! THE DANCERS!

I think basically it's just a self perpetuating phenomenon. Good dancers are attracted to venues where they know other good dancers will be and they know they're on a cert at Hipsters.

Yes, it may also be the case that the not so confident or lesser dancers feel intimidated, therefore don't return. So it appears elitist!
But how many times have we all turned up at our local venue and although it's really friendly and the teaching is of a good standard and we're made to feel really welcome, we might only be certain of getting a couple of really great dances, with the teacher etc. but because Hipsters has a 'name' in the dance world, people who are visiting London from all over are drawn towards it, therefore it has a constant turnover of the better dancers.

And I hate to say it because I do really like the teaching there but I have a feeling that the numbers of good dancers wouldn't change that much even if they didn't have a lesson at all, cos the majority of the REALLY good dancers turn up after the lesson's finished anyway! :rolleyes:

TheTramp
2nd-July-2004, 10:57 AM
Maybe you'd get more turning up if there was no lesson, and just 3.5 hours of freestyle...??

I know that'd make me come if I lived down there!! :D

Trampy

under par
2nd-July-2004, 11:09 AM
And I hate to say it because I do really like the teaching there but I have a feeling that the numbers of good dancers wouldn't change that much even if they didn't have a lesson at all, cos the majority of the REALLY good dancers turn up after the lesson's finished anyway! :rolleyes:

It's certainly the dancers that Mrs Par goes to Hipsters for. There isn't a venue like it for a good female dancer who wants to be pushed to the limit.

Only at weekend events do you get the amount of quality male leads other than Hipsters in the south of England. We travel at least once a week 160 miles round trip to Hipsters.

I love the lessons but quite often get there too late to join in (bl**dy London traffic). Mrs Par sits out the lessons more often than not as it is mainly 10 ladies+ over .

I too have become a convert though.

Initially I refused to consider travelling so far to dance and Mrs Par travelled with other addicts from nearby. But after a few visits I got hooked and I really look forward to going now.

I feel my standard of dancing has improved due to the lessons and the amount of superb dancers to 1. dance with and 2. watch :yeah:

Watching from the sidelines occasionally, in awe of their ability to look smooth and uncomplicated and really get into the music. I keep trying to pinch little bits of style/moves from my watching. really really helpful :worthy:

Lory if I do eventually become a good dancer does that mean I have to arrive after the lesson? :whistle:
If so it would give Mrs Par more time to do her hair before we set off. So I will have to try harder. :rofl: :hug:

under par
2nd-July-2004, 11:12 AM
Maybe you'd get more turning up if there was no lesson, and just 3.5 hours of freestyle...??

I know that'd make me come if I lived down there!! :D

Trampy

So would I Trampy but would Mrs Par ever get her hair done if we had to get there so early. :whistle: :blush:

Lounge Lizard
2nd-July-2004, 11:25 AM
so what makes Hipsters the 'dance god' magnet - Why not the Casbah or other venues
good dancers go to Hipsters it seems cos the teaching is brill.....and arrive after or sit out the lesson (excep ChrisA, Andy et al)
Very little mention on Music, Location, Promotion ETC.
Would Hipsters work without JB & Rog?
Could it be a success if located in Windsor or Central London?
LL

Andy McGregor
2nd-July-2004, 11:41 AM
If so it would give Mrs Par more time to do her hair before we set off. So I will have to try harder. :rofl: :hug:

Mrs Par (Sharon) is always perfectly turned out and looks a million dollars. She'd be beating them off with a stick if she spent more time on her looks:waycool:

TheTramp
2nd-July-2004, 11:49 AM
Ummm. You don't think the sight of Mr. Par might scare a few off then???

Trampy

under par
2nd-July-2004, 11:50 AM
so what makes Hipsters the 'dance god' magnet - Why not the Casbah or other venues
good dancers go to Hipsters it seems cos the teaching is brill.....and arrive after or sit out the lesson (excep ChrisA, Andy et al)
Very little mention on Music, Location, Promotion ETC.
Would Hipsters work without JB & Rog?
Could it be a success if located in Windsor or Central London?
LL


Peter a good question

The music is important. JB Roger and Toby are brill. great mixes of MJ and bluesy music. Always a good mix of well known with the odd new more challenging tracks for good measure.

The teaching is important. Nigel Roger Amir and co teach at consistently high levels all aspects of dance that are not covered at most other venues.

The dancers are important. Because the teachers are so good the dancers are a relatively higher standard (even the beginners) than other venues.(trust me I dance in many local venues and I still dance with beginners a lot)

It also helps that the venue is London based as it attracts dancers from up to a 80 mile radius if you consider the Bristol/Northampton and Sussex based visitors. If not further!

Not being a "dance god" I can only summise that all of the above attract them.

Andy McGregor
2nd-July-2004, 12:01 PM
so what makes Hipsters the 'dance god' magnet - Why not the Casbah or other venues?
LL

I've never been asked to go to the Casbah or been told anything about it. I was told about Hipsters and asked to support the opening night: so I did, and I've been going back ever since.


good dancers go to Hipsters it seems cos the teaching is brill.....and arrive after or sit out the lesson (excep ChrisA, Andy et al)LL

As you know, I always do the lesson if I get there on time - which I make a great effort to do. Some people do sit out the lesson and chat, I think it's because Hipsters is often the only place they meet and they're catching up with gossip. This Wednesday I would have to have left at about 5.30pm to be sure of being in time for the lesson. Sue and I simple couldn't get away by that time so we didn't go - because we don't think it's worth driving all that way (four hours driving!) for an hour and a half of freestyle no matter how good the other dancers are.

The teaching is brilliant but sometimes the other people in the class don't get the lesson because the level is pitched too high. A great woman going around the lines of male dancers who don't get it might give up after a while and chat with their friends. IMHO Hipsters should be like Salsa or Ceroc Australia, you should be told which level you're at and given a lesson suitable for your level - you don't get much out of the lesson being too easy or too hard.


Very little mention on Music, Location, Promotion ETC.
LL

Music - mostly good:wink:
Location - Good location for people who live in London. Not too bad for us people who live outside London compared to other London venues which don't have such good motorway links.
Promotion - This is word of mouth: which seems to work best in MJ if you aren't after beginners.


Would Hipsters work without JB & Rog?
I think a good DJ who understands MJ is essential. JB and Roger aren't the only ones but they are amongst the best known. I think a DJ that played relentless pop music all night could kill Hipsters in a month:tears:


Could it be a success if located in Windsor or Central London?
LL

Once you'd actually defined what Hipsters is it could work anywhere in/near a population centre that has a number of successful MJ classes:clap:

My own opinion is that Hipsters Legend is bigger than its reality. People that don't go think it's some kind of perfect place. It's just a very good dance class with some very good, and not so good, dancers.

Gus
2nd-July-2004, 12:07 PM
so what makes Hipsters the 'dance god' magnet - Why not the Casbah or other venues
good dancers go to Hipsters it seems cos the teaching is brill.....and arrive after or sit out the lesson (excep ChrisA, Andy et al)
Very little mention on Music, Location, Promotion ETC.
Would Hipsters work without JB & Rog?
Could it be a success if located in Windsor or Central London?
LL

Arrhhhh .. Grasshopper .. you are looking for logic! Sometimes clubs 'just' become succesfull for no reason .. or for different reasons than those that you would expect. I think it would be easy to point to the composite elements and say thats why Hipsters works .. but I'm sure that there are examples where other venues have tried the same and failed. :sad: I think its great that Hipsters works ... or at least creates a legend of the 'super-club'. I think thats what's needed eslewhere. We're going to try to create something in the North West, well a less ambitious version. We're located between a number of established clubs, starting with experienced crew at a venue with an excellent rep for freestyles, with heavy focus on music and will only used the best instructors at our disposal.

Will it work ?? God knows ... despite all the postiive factors we could still crash and burn ... BUT its the 'myth' of Hipsters that has incentivised us to try to create a similar mecca in the North .... but is the North ready for it?

under par
2nd-July-2004, 12:15 PM
Will it work ?? .......................snip......its the 'myth' of Hipsters that has incentivised us to try to create a similar mecca in the North .... but is the North ready for it?

Lets hope so, good luck with venture. :clap: :clap:

All parts of the country deserve something similar to Hipsters. :yeah:

spindr
2nd-July-2004, 12:22 PM
Kieran Loftus' ran a sort of Hipsters (before Hipsters) at Eastleigh for the Southampton dance community.

BTW - if you haven't experienced Kieran's teaching style, I recommend it for his novel approach and banter, etc. especially if there is heckling from Barry.

The club went through a number of different permutations; originally it was targeted without a beginner's class -- later on a brief "style" class was added on. I think it worked quite well for several years given the location, etc. -- the fact that it didn't have a beginners class pulled in dancers from around the area because you were fairly assured of getting a good intermediate/improver level dance.

Eventually, I think the formula got a little staid, and attendance started dropping -- and a beginner's class was started up to bring fresh bodies through. I think Kieran closed the class about 18 months or so afterwards.
There could well have been pressure from MoJive classes or JiveRiot in that area.

In contrast to Hipsters there was no website, and only infrequent email updates. Also Kieran doesn't tend to teach at weekenders of do cabarets like Nigel + Nina, or Andy + Rena.

SpinDr.

Gus
2nd-July-2004, 12:37 PM
Kieran Loftus' ran a sort of Hipsters (before Hipsters) at Eastleigh for the Southampton dance community.

The club went through a number of different permutations; originally it was targeted without a beginner's class -- later on a brief "style" class was added on. I think it worked quite well for several years given the location, etc. -- the fact that it didn't have a beginners class pulled in dancers from around the area because you were fairly assured of getting a good intermediate/improver level dance.
.

Although we have similar aims ... I dont pretend that we have the teaching draw that Hipsters has. We will be operating with the baisc MJ formula ... beginners class will remain but the intermediate class will seen as an 'improvers' class ... greater emphasis on style and interpretation rather than just moves. We dont intend to make each class 'advanced' .. as I dont believe that is the path to improving dancers. The main 'Hipsters' development will be the music. We will seek to play a reasonable amount of 'advanced' tracks to challenge the dancers and encourage more dancing and less move-junkies.

Its a hard path to tread between commercial success (i.e. just pack the numbers in) and dance development .... be interesting to see where the balance ends up.

Lory
2nd-July-2004, 01:51 PM
I think a good DJ who understands MJ is essential. JB and Roger aren't the only ones but they are amongst the best known. I think a DJ that played relentless pop music all night could kill Hipsters in a month:tears:



:yeah:

RobC
2nd-July-2004, 02:24 PM
Sporty for me please, I've always gone for the most talented:wink:
You're not an Old Spice person then ? :devil:

:hug:

Andy McGregor
2nd-July-2004, 02:29 PM
You're not an Old Spice person then ? :devil:

:hug:

OK, since you're offering: send Ginger spice too:devil:

Peter
2nd-July-2004, 02:38 PM
IMHO Hipsters should be like Salsa or Ceroc Australia, you should be told which level you're at and given a lesson suitable for your level - you don't get much out of the lesson being too easy or too hard.

I agree! Has this been discussed in here before? Even more interesting, has there been a poll on this topic?

Lounge Lizard
2nd-July-2004, 03:05 PM
OK could the Hipsters brand be sold...
Only events approved and moniterd by the Hipsters team can (officialy) use the name and a certain level of quality and format must be maintaind to keep using the name,
Could other independants match the standard?
Would anyone (organiser) be interested?
Could ceroc go down a simmilar path using the casbah as the brand name (I keep refering to the casbah cos when I started dancing this was the top UK venue by reputation....but not anymore......or is it?
I repeatI am not trying to say H or C is best just create an open discussion on the leading brand names
So Gus would you consider :Hipsters of the North'
What formula could Ceroc develop to match Hipsters
Is there another MJ brand name (other than Hipsters or Ceroc) that is instantly recognisable outside it's region -Not sure if Leroc counts as it is not a cohesive organisation, just a group or organisers using the same name.
LL

Gus
2nd-July-2004, 03:37 PM
OK could the Hipsters brand be sold...
......What formula could Ceroc develop to match Hipsters
LL

Isn't that what Ceroc Plus is?

Lounge Lizard
2nd-July-2004, 04:14 PM
Isn't that what Ceroc Plus is?ceroc plus is the name for the ex jive bug venue run by simon, my understanding is that it has a larger infux of beginners and less advanved dancers since the change (RobC can verify)
So no I think it has brought the successfull Ceroc formula to fleet but is not matching Hipsters
LL

Simon r
2nd-July-2004, 04:33 PM
ceroc plus is the name for the ex jive bug venue run by simon, my understanding is that it has a larger infux of beginners and less advanved dancers since the change (RobC can verify)
So no I think it has brought the successfull Ceroc formula to fleet but is not matching Hipsters
LL
:yeah:
Imust admit not been back since

ChrisA
2nd-July-2004, 04:48 PM
ex jive bug venue run by simon, my understanding is that it has a larger infux of beginners and less advanved dancers since the change (RobC can verify)

Just musing, pending Rob's confirmation of this or otherwise....

A notable change since Jivebug Fleet became Ceroc+ is that Nigel and Nina no longer do advanced classes there. If there are indeed fewer advanced dancers there now, I wonder if there's a connection.

Not that I think of myself as an advanced dancer, but with N&N no longer doing their spot down there, it has less to attract me than it did before. Why would I drive all that way down the M3 when there is so much available to me in London? There are venues I greatly enjoy for different reasons on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, and from time to time at weekends, so for me to drag my danced-out corpse down to Fleet on a Thursday would need something special, and N&N (together with the dancers they attract) would have fitted that bill very nicely.

Chris

RobC
2nd-July-2004, 05:05 PM
ceroc plus is the name for the ex jive bug venue run by simon, my understanding is that it has a larger infux of beginners and less advanved dancers since the change (RobC can verify)
So no I think it has brought the successfull Ceroc formula to fleet but is not matching Hipsters
LL
To be honest, the only conclusion I can really draw from our transition from Jive Bug to Ceroc Plus, is that there appears to be a lot of biggotted dancers out there who appear to have stopped coming to Fleet just because we are now part of the Ceroc family. :tears: Anything else would just be speculation. There were just too many changes all happening at the same time to put Fleet's current status down to any one factor.

Sure, we have had a lot of new people come down to Fleet since the start of the new year, but then we have done a number of successful busking sessions, and the new year is traditionally when a lot of people try something new and decide to work off those inches gained over christmas.

There have also been a few people stay away that used to travel long distances once a month just to come to Nigel & Nina's advanced class (AndyMcG being one example), which has resulted in the appearance that some of our top dancers are no longer there. However, we are still running monthly advanced classes with guest teachers brought in (we have had Adam & Mandy and Mick on various occasions in the last few months), and those dancers that weren't just drawn in by N&N are still dancing with us and enjoying the monthly 'challenging' classes.

I think what will be more interesting will be when we open a new venue down in Farnham in september. Once we get through that initial 'new venue' phase and things settle down, we will have a lot more space available to us and will be able to offer a lot more to our dancers. Anyone who has been to previous MJC's when it was held in the Farnham Maltings will know that there is space to hold up to 5 concurrent classes. :clap:

ChrisA
2nd-July-2004, 05:23 PM
To be honest, the only conclusion I can really draw from our transition from Jive Bug to Ceroc Plus, is that there appears to be a lot of biggotted dancers out there who appear to have stopped coming to Fleet just because we are now part of the Ceroc family. :tears: Anything else would just be speculation. There were just too many changes all happening at the same time to put Fleet's current status down to any one factor.

It seems extremely harsh to me, to use a term such as 'bigoted', when in the next breath you say that there have been too many changes for it to be possible to put things down to any one factor.

The thing about Ceroc is that it goes to great lengths to appear consistent - content, style, format, whatever. This is one of its greatest strengths, and has contributed much to its universality in the MJ world.

But as with many things, strengths can also manifest themselves as weaknesses, and particularly for seasoned jivers who go to lots of venues, driving a long distance to go to "another Ceroc venue" might not have the appeal of an independent - if only for its variety - if such dancers already have access to lots of good Ceroc venues.

So even if it's true that people aren't coming because Fleet is now Ceroc, it is uncharitable verging on unfriendly, to accuse them of bigotry. In fact the more I think about it, the more astonished I am that you chose to use such a word. :really:

Chris

RobC
2nd-July-2004, 05:26 PM
It seems extremely harsh to me, to use a term such as 'bigoted', when in the next breath you say that there have been too many changes for it to be possible to put things down to any one factor.

I have been told to my face, by more than one person, that they no longer come to Fleet because we are Ceroc ! That seems pretty clear to me. :sick:

Maybe it was unfair for me to use 'a lot', but these people do exist. :tears:



big·ot
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
I think bigot is a suitable description.

ChrisA
2nd-July-2004, 05:30 PM
I have been told to my face, by more than one person, that they no longer come to Fleet because we are Ceroc ! That seems pretty clear to me. :sick:

But as I say, there are legitimate reasons why someone might not go somewhere because it is Ceroc - and not because they don't like Ceroc. I like Ceroc, but I wouldn't want to go to exclusively Ceroc venues, since there isn't enough variety in the product.

So if I choose not to drive to a Ceroc venue, whereas I might choose to drive to a non-Ceroc venue on a particular night, it doesn't mean that I don't like Ceroc, and it certainly doesn't make me a bigot. :mad:

Chris

TheTramp
2nd-July-2004, 05:33 PM
:yeah:

Was going to write exactly what Chris said.

And I'll add, that while Ceroc has done lots of very good things in bringing jive to the masses, it has, as a company, upset a good number of people along the way (what successful company hasn't?).

Hence, if those people don't want to come to a venue, and contribute money towards the ceroc organisation, why should they be 'bigoted'???

If you choose not to go to McDonalds, because you don't like the product, or you don't like that type of restaurant, or you don't like the staff who work there, you are not bigoted against McDonalds. You are just choosing which organisation you don't want to spend your money at. It's no different because it's dancing and ceroc...

I think that you are taking people exercising their free right of choice way too personally Rob....

Trampy

RobC
2nd-July-2004, 05:52 PM
Hence, if those people don't want to come to a venue, and contribute money towards the ceroc organisation, why should they be 'bigoted'???

If you choose not to go to McDonalds, because you don't like the product, or you don't like that type of restaurant, or you don't like the staff who work there, you are not bigoted against McDonalds. You are just choosing which organisation you don't want to spend your money at. It's no different because it's dancing and ceroc...

I think that you are taking people exercising their free right of choice way too personally Rob....

Ok, so maybe I could have dug a bit deeper to find out if there was more to these people not wanting to come to Fleet anymore, but when someone comes regularly to a venue, and then come 1st Jan they just stop, even though (with the exception of N&N) all the teachers/crew involved with the venue remain the same, without even giving us the benefit of the doubt, I would call that pretty intolerant.

BTW, your McDonalds analogy isn't quite accurate here. A better one would be when Burger King took over Wimpy, with people that previously ate a Wimpy restaurants but decided not to go back to the rebranded Burger King. On day 1, the way the burgers were cooked probably won't have changed much, since the original staff would need to be trained how to cook burgers the 'Burger King' way. (Which we haven't yet - we're still cooking the Wimpy way !)

I'm not criticising peoples right to the freedom of choice, but when someone says to your face that they no longer go to a venue which you are actively involved in, because the brand name has changed ....... of course it's going to be personal to a degree.

TheTramp
2nd-July-2004, 05:56 PM
No. It's not at all personal. They aren't coming because of you, or anything you did. They are coming because of the brand name. That's not personal at all. That's business.

I guess it might be personal, if you are the owner of the business, but since you're not (you're not financially backing Mike, are you?), then it can't be personal.

And, if they've somehow been upset in the past by ceroc, because of something that ceroc did to them, or to their friends (even perceived), then it's hardly intolerant, not wanting to support the ceroc company with their money. That's just a freedom of choice thing. You can hardly expect them to support a company that they have issues with. Would you? Though, I will agree that it's a shame that this sort of thing gets in the way of the dancing....

Trampy

under par
2nd-July-2004, 05:58 PM
:yeah:

Was going to write exactly what Chris said.

And I'll add, that while Ceroc has done lots of very good things in bringing jive to the masses, it has, as a company, upset a good number of people along the way (what successful company hasn't?).



I think that you are taking people exercising their free right of choice way too personally Rob....

Trampy

And Rob if I may add that you are using language of hate instead of the all inclusive language of love and peace that might just bring more people through the door.

Mcdonalds will try and make their product more appealing to the masses of stay away customers rather than publicly chastise them. :sick:

RobC
2nd-July-2004, 07:33 PM
No. It's not at all personal. They aren't coming because of you, or anything you did. They are coming because of the brand name. That's not personal at all. That's business.
Actually I'd like to think that the loyalty of regular customers does have something to do with not only the teachers and DJs at a venue but also the rest of the crew / venue owner etc for the environment they create.



I guess it might be personal, if you are the owner of the business, but since you're not (you're not financially backing Mike, are you?), then it can't be personal.
You and I both know that there is more to investment in a venue than just financial ! Every teacher, DJ and crew member invests time and effort into the venue to make an evening enjoyable and, dare I say it, profitable, not just on the night, but in preparation for lessons, DJ sets, busking to attract new members ..... the list goes on. So I would argue that all of the above are personally involved in a venue and can take it personally when someone decides to stop coming to the venue for no other reason than it has changed it's name.


You can hardly expect them to support a company that they have issues with. Would you?
But what about a venue you were previously loyal to that had nothing to do with previous gripes ?


Though, I will agree that it's a shame that this sort of thing gets in the way of the dancing....
Ditto.

TheTramp
2nd-July-2004, 07:51 PM
Actually I'd like to think that the loyalty of regular customers does have something to do with not only the teachers and DJs at a venue but also the rest of the crew / venue owner etc for the environment they create.

Absolutely. But in this case, it's not the teachers, DJ's or crew that's made the difference. It's the change of company.

I agree with all your points. But you still can't take it personally when it's nothing that you've changed.

And you can't blame the people who have left either. It's their decision, for whatever reason they made it. As Under Par said, it doesn't help calling them names or anything like that. If they read the forum, then it's not going to attract them back.....

Just gotta get on with the rest of the people, and keep trying to attract new ones. Wish you all the best.

Trampy

Gus
2nd-July-2004, 09:27 PM
But in this case, it's not the teachers, DJ's or crew that's made the difference. It's the change of company.


I think its naive to believe that Jive Bug could move under the Ceroc banner and not have some fall-out. Ceroc has alientated a fair few people over the years (OK ... they are not alone in this) and some people really would not want their cash ending up in Ceroc coffers ... regardless of those at the front end of the transaction. Its no different to someone have undying admiration for a footballer ... then loosing that when they join a despicable club ... like Leeds Utd. :wink:

DavidB
2nd-July-2004, 09:51 PM
then loosing that when they join a despicable club ... like Leeds Utd.??? You mean we can afford to sign someone? Things are looking up.

djsaz
3rd-July-2004, 12:36 AM
ceroc plus - not all the crew stayed the same!! i will say no more.....xx

Lounge Lizard
3rd-July-2004, 09:56 AM
Ok Rob. firstly Fleet was only referd to in this thread cos Gus suggested it was Ceroc equilivant of Hipsters, so no need to get so defensive.
I commented that it appeared to target/put more emphasis on newer dancers rather than the top level dancers.
Something you have confirmed in your comments.

I think you are way off line with your bigoted comments

Jive Bug to Ceroc changes resulted in
Nigel nina (and I think Jules) no longer teaching
Me & sarah no longer DJ'ing - if none of us attracted any dancers I would be suprised, if the dancers that we appealed to stopped going to your venue i would not be suprised
BUT Ceroc Plus more than filled any gap with new dancers

What also suprised me was at MJC I recognised loads of dancers and not that many new faces I had expected a whole new crowd from the ceroc camp.

Considering this was possibly Ceroc's biggest weekender to date was the event well attended by the mainstream ceroc dancer (i.e. the dancers that only go to their local ceroc venue and think Hipsters is a form of clothing)
or despite it being Ceroc does it still mainly attracted the regular followers of MJC
We are not having a go at Ceroc or Hipsters here so be carefull ....you are a big lad to be perched on a wobbly soap box :grin:

RobC
3rd-July-2004, 11:20 AM
I commented that it appeared to target/put more emphasis on newer dancers rather than the top level dancers.
Something you have confirmed in your comments.
Not at all. Yes, there has been a shift in balance of numbers towards the newer dancer, but not because we are targeting or putting any extra emphasis on them, other than the usual amount of advirtising & busking that most venues will do. In fact, since we became Ceroc Plus, we have actually put on more classes for the 'advanced' dancer, with Adam and Tas teaching every week instead of the Improvers class Debi and I used to run under Jive Bug, and we still run the monthly advanced jive class with guest teachers instead of N&N.

ChrisA
3rd-July-2004, 11:41 AM
with Adam and Tas teaching every week
Ooh... could you give an idea of the sort of stuff they teach please, Rob?

They would be an incentive to get me down there :clap:

Chris

Zuhal
3rd-July-2004, 11:45 AM
In fact, since we became Ceroc Plus, we have actually put on more classes for the 'advanced' dancer, with Adam and Tas teaching every week instead of the Improvers class Debi and I used to run under Jive Bug, and we still run the monthly advanced jive class with guest teachers instead of N&N.

There is surely a difference between a standard MJ evening that offers a Beginners and Beginners improver concurrant (sic) with a Intermediate class and the efforts that Ceroc/Bug/Plus are making to provide an additional Advanced Level class at any venue where there is space.

That additional class does not come from the Ceroc formula but is a valuable service that the owners of Ceroc Plus will decide is viable and desirable. Personally I admire the drive that creates the opportunity for the punter. :clap:

Zuhal

RobC
3rd-July-2004, 12:02 PM
Ooh... could you give an idea of the sort of stuff they teach please, Rob?

They would be an incentive to get me down there :clap:

Chris
Well I've never done or seen their class because I'm always busy downstairs with the repeat beginners class, while Dan is on stage with the Intermediate class. The class is called Jive Fusion and my understanding is that they teach moves with a twist of Hip Hop, Jive and other styles thrown in. We don't video their routines like we do the beginners and intermediate classes as they often do moves which are drawn from their competition / cabaret routines and they don't want to give away their competitive edge :wink:

Andy McGregor
3rd-July-2004, 12:42 PM
As I'd been mentioned I thought I'd chip in with my honest spin-free view.

I did used to go to Jive Bug, and not just on the nights Nigel and Nina were teaching. I liked Simon's teaching too. Even though it takes me longer than Hipsters to get to I still thought it was worth the trip.

I do go to Ceroc classes. I went to Horsham last Wednesday, Chigwell last Sunday, Godalming a couple of weeks ago, etc, etc. And I really do believe RobC when he says Ceroc Plus provides good teaching and has a good crowd of dancers.

I have, jokingly, told RobC that I'm not going because there are nearer Ceroc classes. I have compared it to McDonalds and asked why I would drive past 3 McDonalds to go to a more distant McDonalds for my identical Big Mac. This is not the main reason I don't go to Ceroc Plus in Fleet - I have not told the complete truth because the above reason is more palatable than my real reason.

The simple reason I don't go to Ceroc Plus is because they upset Nina.

Franck
3rd-July-2004, 12:45 PM
The simple reason I don't go to Ceroc Plus is because they upset Nina.Is that because they told her she wasn't allowed to smoke there? :whistle:

Andy McGregor
3rd-July-2004, 12:52 PM
Is that because they told her she wasn't allowed to smoke there? :whistle::rofl:

Very funny, I tried to give you some positive rep for that but it seems you even need to spread it around before you can give rep to the master.


And, to answer your question, after teaching for Jive Bug for quite some time, Nina was told that them joining Ceroc meant that they could no longer employ Nigel and Nina as teachers.

RobC
3rd-July-2004, 01:18 PM
And, to answer your question, after teaching for Jive Bug for quite some time, Nina was told that them joining Ceroc meant that they could no longer employ Nigel and Nina as teachers.
OK, I might be wrong here, but I believe that it was actually Nigel we were not allowed to have teach for us, due to his involvement with a competing london venue..... Nina was not the issue, but of course, the chances of getting her back down to Fleet without Nigel .... :sad:
(I believe the same holds true about their absense from MJC.)

Andy McGregor
3rd-July-2004, 02:23 PM
OK, I might be wrong here, but I believe that it was actually Nigel we were not allowed to have teach for us, due to his involvement with a competing london venue.....

Which brings us neatly back on-topic. It seems to me that Ceroc HQ see Hipsters as the spawn of the devil. I can not imagine that it was Simon who stopped Nigel and Nina from teaching for him. My guess is that it was a condition of him becoming a Ceroc franchisee.

And now we come on to the hypocrisy of this decision. Let's assume that RobC is right when he says "it was actually Nigel we were not allowed to have teach for us, due to his involvement with a competing london venue". Let's consider this further.

1. John Brett is DJ and partner in Hipsters. He is also DJ at many Ceroc Metro venues.

2. Nigel works for Ceroc Metro recruiting people to take part in Jive Masters.

3. Our own Lounge Lizard, Peter Phillips runs his own successful, competing, dance organisation - and he was a DJ at MJC. This is what the MJC website says about him "he frequently plays guest slots at our Fleet and Bisley venues including our last new years eve dance".

If we consider the above, it seems that the "involvement with a competing venue" rule has not been applied unilaterally. The only thing I can think of is that this rule might only apply to teaching - but don't Joseph and Tricia teach at their own venue?

I have no answer to offer, I could make something up to possibly explain why events have taken the course they have - but I leave that to others who are sooo much better than me at fabrication:wink:

In the meantime I'm left with a small light blinking on my control panel that says "no proper answer given", "no proper answer given", "no proper answer given", etc.

But I do have another question. What, exactly, have Ceroc HQ got against Hipsters?

..or is it personal? :mad:

Gadget
3rd-July-2004, 10:44 PM
Is there going to be a "wooden spirtle" award at the BFG for stirring it? If so, I nominate McG.

Does it really matter what the reasons were behind the descision? It was between Nigel and Ceroc Plus - all anyone else needs to know, or should be interested to know is that he's not teaching there. It's in the past. A descision has been made, and everyone should now be looking at the present, leading to the future.

I really don't understand what the fascination is with gossip. I suppose that's why I don't like soaps on TV.

Martin
4th-July-2004, 01:34 AM
I have been told to my face, by more than one person, that they no longer come to Fleet because we are Ceroc ! That seems pretty clear to me. :sick:

Maybe it was unfair for me to use 'a lot', but these people do exist. :tears:


I think bigot is a suitable description.


mmmm strange thread - I read it as it was talking about Hipsters originally.

One observation I did have was that word biggot...

Keeping in mind the statement "OK, I might be wrong here, but I believe that it was actually Nigel we were not allowed to have teach for us, due to his involvement with a competing london venue....."

Now has this got any corrolation to the below description also offered by yourself?

big·ot
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

mmmm does make you wonder?

Back on Thread - after all it not all about you (athough reading the second half of this thread one might think it is :tears: )

There is definately a place for Hipsters - is it sucessful? - Well if you mean raw numbers given it's location and teaching, DJ'ing staff, no it is not - If you mean providing the more advanced dancer somewhere to go (your prime steak burger if you like) yes it is very successful.
In the past it was Lindy hop and Salsa that got the advanced dancers as Ceroc only catered up to intermediate Level.
Go Hipsters... :clap:

Andy McGregor
4th-July-2004, 02:11 AM
Is there going to be a "wooden spirtle" award at the BFG for stirring it? If so, I nominate McG.

Does it really matter what the reasons were behind the descision? It was between Nigel and Ceroc Plus - all anyone else needs to know, or should be interested to know is that he's not teaching there. It's in the past. A descision has been made, and everyone should now be looking at the present, leading to the future.

I really don't understand what the fascination is with gossip. I suppose that's why I don't like soaps on TV.

What is this post about?:confused:

Gadget doesn't dance at Fleet/Ceroc Plus, he doesn't dance at Hipsters. If anyone's stirring things up it's Gadget. And he's stirring a pot he's never going to eat from.

If Gadget doesn't understand or like Gossip he's on the wrong forum. As far as I can see, we LOVE gossip here, in fact I thought that gossip was one of the cornerstones of the Forum. So, come on Gadget, tell us what you think we should do if we're not here to gossip?:confused:

Gadget may not like gossip on TV but as far as I can see he's here and taking part in major gossip on a daily basis. Come on Gadget, get real and get authentic - you love gossip and you're in denial:wink:

Gadget
5th-July-2004, 11:06 AM
My point is that your post was circumstantial and tabloid in appearance:
"Nigel leaves venue!" Was he sacked? Did he quit? Or is there a conspiracy against dancers? Full story page 5&6 with exclusive pictures!!

I have no problem with discussing the pros/cons of a decision. I have no problems with discussing the ramifications of a decision. I don't really mind postulating on the reasoning behind a decision. What I dislike is your framing of it: Accusatory without presenting evidence of these convictions.
If you have discussed the reason behind the decision with Nigel and got the opposing viewpoint from Ceroc, then formed an opinion, I will apologise unreservedly for accusing you of gossip-mongering. Unfortunately the tone of your post doesn't lead me to this conclusion.

When gossip becomes inflammatory and derogatory, it ceases to be gossip and is rapidly heading towards slander and liable. In this, I want no part. My use of the term "gossip" was referring to speculating about specific people, their motives and politics. Something, personally, I try to avoid. {with the odd exception :devil:}

Admittedly it is doubtful that I will have the chance to experience any of the venues involved in the above, have never experienced the venue before Ceroc assimilation; but I was not commenting on them - only on your presentation.

{Don't know why, but I seem to be using a lot of big words today. sorry :blush: My spell check almost gave up on me :innocent:}

Andy McGregor
5th-July-2004, 11:21 AM
My point is that your post was circumstantial and tabloid in appearance:
"Nigel leaves venue!" Was he sacked? Did he quit? Or is there a conspiracy against dancers? Full story page 5&6 with exclusive pictures!!

Nigel and Nina were told their services were no longer required when Jive Bug became Ceroc Plus, I was told by and insider that it was a condition of the deal. I thought I'd said that. I never said any of the other stuff. ONLY Gadget said those things, again I wonder why:confused:



When gossip becomes inflammatory and derogatory, it ceases to be gossip and is rapidly heading towards slander and liable. In this, I want no part. My use of the term "gossip" was referring to speculating about specific people, their motives and politics. Something, personally, I try to avoid. {with the odd exception :devil:}


Does the only derogatory stuff about Ceroc seem to be in Gadget's example? Has he used the tabloid journalists trick of posing a question rather than making a statement? Is Gadget "taking no part"? What "specific people" did Andy speculate about in an "inflammatory and derogatory" way?


{Don't know why, but I seem to be using a lot of big words today. sorry :blush: My spell check almost gave up on me :innocent:}

spell check + Gadget = :confused:

TheTramp
5th-July-2004, 11:34 AM
Does it really matter what the reasons were behind the descision? It was between Nigel and Ceroc Plus - all anyone else needs to know, or should be interested to know is that he's not teaching there. It's in the past. A descision has been made, and everyone should now be looking at the present, leading to the future.
Can I also say that this statement is quite untrue.

For those who might either be (a) friends of Nigel, or (b) just enjoy the teaching provided by Nigel and Nina (obviously Nina isn't going to go on her own), then yes, it may well matter what the reasons are. Since it has impinged on their enjoyment of the evening.

If Lorna was to suddenly be stopped teaching in Aberdeen, then I'm sure that you'd want to know, and comment on the reason.

Agreed that you have to look to the present/future. But that doesn't mean that what's happened in the past shouldn't affect you. Or affect your choices in the new world...

Trampy

Andy McGregor
5th-July-2004, 12:02 PM
Nigel and Nina were told their services were no longer required when Jive Bug became Ceroc Plus, I was told by and insider that it was a condition of the deal. I thought I'd said that. I never said any of the other stuff.


changing your story again :mad: I agree with Gadget!

Now I am confused. Which bit of my story has changed? Which bit of Gadget's post does he/she agree with? I've only stated 2 facts in my last post.

1. Nigel and Nina were told their services were "no longer required when Jive Bug became Ceroc Plus". I've said this a few times, I may have added a few bits about how Nina felt about it but the basic story remains the same.

2. "condition of the deal" - RobC, who is an insider, has confirmed this is true on this very thread!

So how has my story changed?:confused:


Hipsters Influences the Evolution of Modern Jive

And, to get back on thread. I've been thinking about this a bit. I think that the perceived success of Hipsters is what has upset the Masters of Ceroc - whoever they are. But, I believe that, without Hipsters, Ceroc would not now be teaching advanced lessons. I think that those Masters of Ceroc have risen to the perceived challenge of Hipsters in a brilliant way that all dancers gain from. And, I'm sure that those independants who base their formula on Ceroc will soon follow suit. So everyone who goes to Ceroc has benefitted from Hipsters existence, even people who never go to Ealing.

Martin
5th-July-2004, 12:09 PM
Please do correct me if wrong, but gadget - from what I have read you do not attend these venues...

So why post?

I have attended both venues.

I have read "Ceroc is great" - blah blah posts, that is cool as that is your opinion.

I attended "Simon and Marilaine's" 'new' venue called Jive Bug... Things have moved on and I see various opinions.

I attended because they were friends of mine.
Nigel and Nina was a once a month bonus.

Now all changed - so instead of looking outside, look inside...

Big Mac's suit some people, other like steak burgers... :cheers:

If you saw a fall off... maybe you got it wrong...

spindr
5th-July-2004, 12:12 PM
...I believe that, without Hipsters, Ceroc would not now be teaching advanced lessons.

Which venues are giving advanced Ceroc lesssons Andy?

SpinDr.

Andy McGregor
5th-July-2004, 12:18 PM
Which venues are giving advanced Ceroc lesssons Andy?

SpinDr.

None of the ones I've been to. But I've read about it on here. I'd like to know the answer to this one too*. Maybe someone could start a thread on this subject - a Hipsters thread probably isn't the place:devil:


*please let me know if they're smoking or non-smoking venues:wink:

RobC
5th-July-2004, 12:23 PM
Which venues are giving advanced Ceroc lesssons Andy?

SpinDr.
Ones that I personally know of are:
Ceroc Plus - Fleet (Thursdays)
Ceroc Surrey - Godalming (Sundays)
Ceroc Surrey / Plus - Woking (Tuesdays)
(not sure, but I think) Ceroc Surrey - Surbiton (Wednesdays)

Anyone want to add to the list ?

RobC
5th-July-2004, 12:24 PM
Ones that I personally know of are:
Ceroc Plus - Fleet (Thursdays)
Ceroc Surrey - Godalming (Sundays)
Ceroc Surrey / Plus - Woking (Tuesdays)
(not sure, but I think) Ceroc Surrey - Surbiton (Wednesdays)

Anyone want to add to the list ?
Oh, and they're all non-smoking :wink:

Martin
5th-July-2004, 12:24 PM
None of the ones I've been to. But I've read about it on here. I'd like to know the answer to this one too*. Maybe someone could start a thread on this subject - a Hipsters thread probably isn't the place:devil:


*please let me know if they're smoking or non-smoking venues:wink:

So where do "we" go for advanced stuff?

Ceroc - please give us an answer?
(nah not swing and Salsa - Ceroc stuff)

Marty

Lory
5th-July-2004, 12:24 PM
Anyone want to add to the list ?Fulham on Thursdays
Ceroc Metro does an X factor class on Monday's with Adam!

Martin
5th-July-2004, 12:27 PM
Ones that I personally know of are:
Ceroc Plus - Fleet (Thursdays)
Ceroc Surrey - Godalming (Sundays)
Ceroc Surrey / Plus - Woking (Tuesdays)
(not sure, but I think) Ceroc Surrey - Surbiton (Wednesdays)

Anyone want to add to the list ?

And what do you call ADVANCED?

Teachers, styles, credibility?

Not not funk or swing - CEROC advanced?

Martin
5th-July-2004, 12:28 PM
Fulham on Thursdays
Ceroc Metro does an X factor class on Monday's with Adam!

Tried Fulham on Thursdays - nah - not tried Metro though

DavidB
5th-July-2004, 12:31 PM
Anyone want to add to the list ?Jive Bar on Wednesday

spindr
5th-July-2004, 12:31 PM
To me advanced means a discussion of technique -- not just an overlong improvers class -- or convoluted moves.


Ones that I personally know of are:
Ceroc Plus - Fleet (Thursdays)

Hmmm, that's definitely not advanced Ceroc; half the time it's an unpartnered hiphip stroll -- bl**dy good fun, but not advanced Ceroc.

I believe it's advertised as Jive Fusion -- which matches with the lessons I've been to; unless Ceroc's now added WCS sugar push, Lindy circle, Lindy turn, reverse Lindy turn, and LindyHop partnered charlestons to its advanced curriculum :)


Ceroc Surrey - Godalming (Sundays)
Ceroc Surrey / Plus - Woking (Tuesdays)
(not sure, but I think) Ceroc Surrey - Surbiton (Wednesdays)

Anyone want to add to the list ?

Haven't been -- they're a bit too far for me.

SpinDr.

Lory
5th-July-2004, 12:36 PM
And what do you call ADVANCED?

Teachers, styles, credibility?

Not not funk or swing - CEROC advanced?Over to you David Barker :worthy:

Martin
5th-July-2004, 12:45 PM
RobC

So interesting that you have avioded the BIGOT comeback AND comments about your "revised venue"

Ah well you and Gadget should get together and think of pleasent things and ignore what the real reasons are...

RobC
5th-July-2004, 12:50 PM
And what do you call ADVANCED?

Teachers, styles, credibility?

Not not funk or swing - CEROC advanced?
Something that gives you more than your usual intermediate class. Often a mixture of all of the above. Sometimes adding in footwork patterns, more in depth teaching of lead/follow techniques and styling points. Sometimes drawing on the influence of other dance styles (hip-hop, latin, etc) to 'twist' variations on existing 'jive' moves.

N.B. I dont call a teacher going through a really tough routine an advanced class, it needs to offer something more than just a complicated choreographed move that both leader and follower need to know in order to dance it in freestyle. Now if it is broken down in such a way as to teach the lead/follow, style points and other factors involved to enable the moves to be danced freestyle with a partner than may not know the move, then that's a different matter.

Martin
5th-July-2004, 12:52 PM
Something that gives you more than your usual intermediate class. Often a mixture of all of the above. Sometimes adding in footwork patterns, more in depth teaching of lead/follow techniques and styling points. Sometimes drawing on the influence of other dance styles (hip-hop, latin, etc) to 'twist' variations on existing 'jive' moves.

N.B. I dont call a teacher going through a really tough routine an advanced class, it needs to offer something more than just a complicated choreographed move that both leader and follower need to know in order to dance it in freestyle. Now if it is broken down in such a way as to teach the lead/follow, style points and other factors involved to enable the moves to be danced freestyle with a partner than may not know the move, then that's a different matter.


Seriously that is great stuff - so who do you get to teach it?

Is that once a month or every week?

Andy McGregor
5th-July-2004, 12:54 PM
IMHO advanced dancing is usually something that advances your dancing. And it think it depends on your current level. What is advanced to me might be basic stuff to a beginner like The Tramp:confused:

This is nothing to do with the thread but I'm wondering if anyone else gets this. Just recently, and only from time-to-time I've been experiencing a Zen-like place when I'm dancing. I've had all the time in the world to do moves, I've been aware of my breathing/heartbeat and felt exactly where every body part is as if I was looking from outside, I could choose from a number of possible moves, listen to the music and know what's coming, respond to my partner as if I could read their mind, be in the right place and it all goes right - in fact, now I think about it, I'm not sure I'm doing moves or even thinking at all:confused: At the end of the track, or when someone bangs into me, I feel like I'm slowly surfacing from underwater.

I used to get this feeling when I'd been fencing for years, but at the time I put it down to wearing the mask - which also improved my looks:waycool:

DavidB
5th-July-2004, 12:57 PM
To me advanced means a discussion of technique -- not just an overlong improvers class -- or convoluted moves.That would be my preference. However a lot of people do prefer learning moves.

The Fulham advanced classes are done at the moment by guest teachers for a month at a time. Currently for July it is James Geary. Myself & Lily did June, and Will & Kate did May. I believe Will & Kate are doing August??? Rob May has also done some in the past.

We tried to do one simple move that emphasised a particular technique - mainly Lead & Follow, but also a bit of Musical Interpretation. We would also do a more complicated move for those that liked something a bit more challenging. As such they were not aimed at established advanced dancers, but more for people who wanted to learn about what they can do.

David

RobC
5th-July-2004, 01:00 PM
One observation I did have was that word biggot...

Keeping in mind the statement "OK, I might be wrong here, but I believe that it was actually Nigel we were not allowed to have teach for us, due to his involvement with a competing london venue....."

Now has this got any corrolation to the below description also offered by yourself?

big·ot
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

mmmm does make you wonder?

So interesting that you have avioded the BIGOT comeback AND comments about your "revised venue"

What, me, bite the hand that feeds me ? :what: :whistle:
Surely not - that's not like me at all :devil:

spindr
5th-July-2004, 01:00 PM
Seriously that is great stuff - so who do you get to teach it?

Well Nigel may still be free on Thursdays -- but he's not free monthly on Mondays, as he's teaching with Nina at RebelRoc in Woking, like tonight :)

SpinDr.

Andy McGregor
5th-July-2004, 01:03 PM
Well Nigel may still be free on Thursdays -- but he's not free monthly on Mondays, as he's teaching with Nina at RebelRoc in Woking, like tonight :)

SpinDr.

I've only been to this class once. I wouldn't have called it an advanced lesson as it had to be pitched for early intermediates to cope with - but it was very stylish - as usual:clap:

RobC
5th-July-2004, 01:05 PM
Seriously that is great stuff - so who do you get to teach it?

Is that once a month or every week?
Goldalming on Sundays is a weekly class usually taught by Paul Kingston.
Woking on Tuesdays is a weekly class taught by Will & Kate.
Fleet on Thursdays has a weekly Jive Fusion class taught by Adam and Tas (which may not always teach strict jive moves, but definitely gives you that something extra to think about and merge into your own dancing style), and a monthly adnvanced class with a guest teacher (last month was Mick, but was have also had Adam & Mandy down on occasion).
Not sure about the Surbiton class.

Martin
5th-July-2004, 01:07 PM
OK, so all credit for RobC not biting :flower:

Plus, did not know about Fulham - David and Lily, so cool :clap:

Stand corrected and humble in front of RobC and his integrity. :worthy:

Gadget
5th-July-2004, 02:20 PM
{skip to the (--relevant--) bit to avoid rant :wink:}
I went back to re-read Andy's post to make sure that I wasn't being completely unfair: the post is littered with assumptions, presumptions and guesses that are used to draw conclusions or point the reader to a specific conclusion - if that's not tabloid gossip, then what is?

My “Headlines” were drawing (what I thought) fairly outrageous statements. I didn’t expect them to be read out of context and with any seriousness :what: – again you used it to question people’s motives and politics (well, mine actually) I hope I’m right in reading it as a jest.

I agree that I was a bit single-minded about saying that the past bears no relevance to the present/future: To use Tramp’s parallel; if Lorna stopped teaching in Aberdeen, I would be curious as to the reason behind it (unless she was getting progressively bigger in the weeks leading up to the absence :whistle: ) but I can’t think on any scenario that would affect my dancing, attendance, or lack there-of. Even if I felt that the reasoning behind the decision was bias, flawed, incorrect, dubious or outrageous. As with Gus’s thread – dance politics exist, but I don’t think they should affect my dancing, and I think that any organiser of any venue tries very hard for this to be the case.

From what’s been said, JiveBug->Ceroc had more changes than just a teacher re-structuring – putting the changes in attendance/demographics down to just one factor is rather narrow-minded IMHO.

—relevant—
Can someone tell me what the difference is between an advanced class and a workshop? (besides numbers and more focused teacher attention)
Is the “Advanced class” sort of a stage in-between and intermediate class and a workshop? Is it better a weekly thing, or a monthly thing?

RobC
5th-July-2004, 02:35 PM
Can someone tell me what the difference is between an advanced class and a workshop? (besides numbers and more focused teacher attention)
Is the “Advanced class” sort of a stage in-between and intermediate class and a workshop? Is it better a weekly thing, or a monthly thing?
Do you mean the difference between an advanced class and an Advanced workshop ? There are many types of workshops - Ceroc themselves run a number of beginners / intermediate workshops around the country. :wink:

Workshops, IMHO, tend to be longer running (several hours) with smaller numbers, allowing a more one-on-one approach to the teaching style, where as a class is usually less than an hour long with the teacher on a stage, often >20m away from the pupils at the back of the class.

Gadget
5th-July-2004, 03:00 PM
I meant in terms of the subject matter - most (/all) workshops I've been to have not been designated as "advanced" or "intermediate": they are just workshops.

I was asking to try and get an idea if you would get more out of attending an "advanced class" or a "workshop" ?

TheTramp
5th-July-2004, 03:17 PM
I agree that I was a bit single-minded about saying that the past bears no relevance to the present/future: To use Tramp’s parallel; if Lorna stopped teaching in Aberdeen, I would be curious as to the reason behind it (unless she was getting progressively bigger in the weeks leading up to the absence :whistle: ) but I can’t think on any scenario that would affect my dancing, attendance, or lack there-of. Even if I felt that the reasoning behind the decision was bias, flawed, incorrect, dubious or outrageous. As with Gus’s thread – dance politics exist, but I don’t think they should affect my dancing, and I think that any organiser of any venue tries very hard for this to be the case.
It may not affect you Gadget. But I'm betting that if someone bought out Franck, and starting running the classes is Aberdeen, and told Lorna that she wouldn't be teaching anymore, then there would be people who would question that decision, and may well decide not to go to the venues, in a show of support for Lorna. Fortunately this scenario isn't going to happen. But it would definitely have a negative effect with some people. You may choose not to believe me, but I've seen it happen - and not just with Fleet.

Trampy

Andy McGregor
5th-July-2004, 03:24 PM
{skip to the (--relevant--) bit to avoid rant :wink:}
I went back to re-read Andy's post to make sure that I wasn't being completely unfair: the post is littered with assumptions, presumptions and guesses that are used to draw conclusions or point the reader to a specific conclusion - if that's not tabloid gossip, then what is?

I read back through that post too. There was a bit where I said 'my guess is' but that was a figure of speech as I knew what I was saying is true. Other than that I'm at a loss to find 'assumptions and presumptions'.

We need to settle this like gentlemen.

Gadget, my seconds have posted my message here. (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=69864&posted=1#post69864)

Gus
5th-July-2004, 05:47 PM
So where do "we" go for advanced stuff?


Interesting question. Lots of MJ and Ceroc clubs advertise 'advanced' classes ... but most seem to concentrate on getting the punters to do complex moves .... very little try to focus on real style. Why? Because the majority of punters EXPECT that .... and complain if you try teaching them how to dance instead. Once more teachers have to compromise their teaching ideals beacuse of commercial reality :tears:

Gadget
5th-July-2004, 05:52 PM
...and may well decide not to go to the venues, in a show of support for Lorna. Fortunately this scenario isn't going to happen. But it would definitely have a negative effect with some people. You may choose not to believe me, but I've seen it happen - and not just with Fleet.
I'm not disputing that it does happen - but I have always wondered how not attending is a show of support?
I would agree if those people went to another venue that teacher was now (forced to?) teach at - that is showing support. If the primary reason you attended the venue was because you liked that teacher, then by their absence, you may well choose another venue - better floor, different music, ... eliminate the "teaching" factor and there are a plethora of other reasons to choose club A over club B. Why let politics get in the way of having a good time?



It seems to me ...I can not imagine... My guess is ...Let's assume ...Let's consider this further.. it seems that ...The only thing I can think of is ... possibly explain...
assumptions and presumptions? :devil: :whistle:

Martin
5th-July-2004, 05:54 PM
I read back through that post too. There was a bit where I said 'my guess is' but that was a figure of speech as I knew what I was saying is true. Other than that I'm at a loss to find 'assumptions and presumptions'.

We need to settle this like gentlemen.

Gadget, my seconds have posted my message here. (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=69864&posted=1#post69864)

Sabre it is then - look, really fun to read posts BUT PLEASE make sure you know a BIT about the subject :sick:

(not you Andy)


Forum is fun - inane comments from elsewhere PLEASE...
Marty

Andy McGregor
5th-July-2004, 05:54 PM
assumptions and presumptions? :devil: :whistle:

Touche

Andy McGregor
5th-July-2004, 05:58 PM
Sabre it is then

Not sure yet: I'm still waiting for Gadget to confirm. The difference is that sabre will look more spectacular and is much louder:waycool:

..but slightly more painful for the loser :eek:

Martin
5th-July-2004, 06:06 PM
Interesting question. Lots of MJ and Ceroc clubs advertise 'advanced' classes ... but most seem to concentrate on getting the punters to do complex moves .... very little try to focus on real style. Why? Because the majority of punters EXPECT that .... and complain if you try teaching them how to dance instead. Once more teachers have to compromise their teaching ideals beacuse of commercial reality :tears:
So what is advanced? maybe you have not seen it "up north"

IMHO travel to Hipsters, not about complex, more about style and interpretation....

I did teach at Hipsters at Nigels request, so I pulled out what I thought was advanced for the UK market and Janet partnered me :drool:

Don't knock it til you done it...

IMHO :waycool:

spindr
5th-July-2004, 06:28 PM
For me an advanced class is one that helps my dancing.
Improver's / intermediate classes only help me dancing Modern Jive.

Strangely, some teachers' beginner classes can be regarded as advanced in this respect :) -- getting that Zen feeling, now!

Oh I guess I should be somewhat concrete:

floor craft
frame
lead and follow
style / musicality
poise / elegance
balance / frame
expanding movement vocabulary


SpinDr.

Andy McGregor
5th-July-2004, 06:49 PM
Strangely, some teachers' beginner classes can be regarded as advanced in this respect :) -- getting that Zen feeling, now!

Pull up a cushion :cool: