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Sheepman
1st-July-2004, 05:34 PM
With yet another discussion starting on this topic, I think the time is right for a poll, a thread I've been meaning to start for months, (OK it wasn't my idea originally).
Slotted dancing is where you are dancing from point A to point B, at either end of the slot - like you do in all (?) MJ classes. If there is space, the slot can widen - with the travel going perpendicular to the original slot, though you normally return to the original slot. Keeping your bearings is easy in most venues - because they tend to be rectangular, the circular venues are more of a problem!

At a friend's party recently, I was grabbed for a dance by a young lady I didn't know, after a minute or so she asked "What are we doing?"
My stock answer to something like this (because it's true!) "I don't know."
She said "We seem to be walking up and down?"
My reply "Oh, I do a lot of West Coast Swing."
"Oh no! I Don't do that, I only do jive, where you go round and round. "

I just managed to hold back from having an apoplectic fit!

So for me, after years of "going round and round" it has to be slotted. It's safer, more stylish (IMO), gives you more space, and probably easier. Of course it doesn't stop you doing circular moves, but you return to the slot by going round a half or full circle, as you would in the lesson.


So what is the best way of squeezing more people on the floor.

Less than 2.5 square metres, and something has to give.
- You can shorten the connection to make the circle smaller. A 1.5 m circle and you can get almost 50 couples on the floor without bumping, or 55 with.
- You can take the WCS idea of dancing in a slot - you can still move a lot, but the man has to be better at controlling the lady's direction (A 2m by 1m slot and you get 50 couples on the 10 by 10 m floor.)
- Or do both, and you get 65 couples on the floor.

So it might be better to suggest to people to dance in a slot as the floor gets busier, and make the most of the available room.



He has encouraged people to dance in a slot as you take up less room. Every jive lesson is taught in a slot in order to maintain the rows and if dancers choose not to use this in freestyle, then there will be less floor space.

Kate

under par
1st-July-2004, 06:52 PM
With yet another discussion starting on this topic, I think the time is right for a poll, a thread I've been meaning to start for months, (OK it wasn't my idea originally).
Slotted dancing is where you are dancing from point A to point B, at either end of the slot - like you do in all (?) MJ classes. If there is space, the slot can widen - with the travel going perpendicular to the original slot, though you normally return to the original slot. Keeping your bearings is easy in most venues - because they tend to be rectangular, the circular venues are more of a problem!

At a friend's party recently, I was grabbed for a dance by a young lady I didn't know, after a minute or so she asked "What are we doing?"
My stock answer to something like this (because it's true!) "I don't know."
She said "We seem to be walking up and down?"
My reply "Oh, I do a lot of West Coast Swing."
"Oh no! I Don't do that, I only do jive, where you go round and round. "

I just managed to hold back from having an apoplectic fit!

So for me, after years of "going round and round" it has to be slotted. It's safer, more stylish (IMO), gives you more space, and probably easier. Of course it doesn't stop you doing circular moves, but you return to the slot by going round a half or full circle, as you would in the lesson.


I am just getting my head around what slotted dancing is.

I feel that without ever having been taught (ie the theory)of it or fully understanding what it is I feel I sometimes use it when it is busy.

The more threads about
1.lead and follow
2. frames
3. slotting and
4. Gadgets superb introspective on his abilities,
that I read the more the more I go out to dance trying to use or put into practice some of these theories.

I find whilst I am out dancing when I try to put into practice the theories I am currently concerned with I become more "wooden" as the mind races.

Perserverance with different aspects has paid dividends for me and I now try to set a little objective for myself each evening.

Gus
1st-July-2004, 07:50 PM
I remember the (former) Mrs Ceroc (aka Janie) had a big downer about 'crabbing', i.e. continually circling ... so for that perspective I agree with Messr Sheepman. HOWEVER, I find the 'slot' dance a bit restrictive ... I like to see dancer using room and using broad sweeping movements to interpret dance and put a bit of life into the game (dance room permitting). In fact I think was Amir that really got me thinking about using floorspace and dynamic movement as an added dimension to musical interpretation. Gladly, there are still a few larger venues where ther is room to dance 'un-economically' with space.

Emma
1st-July-2004, 10:34 PM
As a follower one doesn't have much choice, if the lead is dancing in a slot and you're follwing, you dance in a slot.....

spindr
2nd-July-2004, 01:42 AM
Ah, I think that there's two concepts that are getting mixed:

1). The man leaves the lady's line free.
2). The lady dances in a slot.

1) doesn't necessarily imply 2) as you can rotate, but still keep the lady's line free.

I generally dance 1). and then if it gets crowded I dance 2).

under par
2nd-July-2004, 02:42 AM
Ah, I think that there's two concepts that are getting mixed:

1). The man leaves the lady's line free.
2). The lady dances in a slot.

1) doesn't necessarily imply 2) as you can rotate, but still keep the lady's line free.

I generally dance 1). and then if it gets crowded I dance 2).

I tried to do a bit more "slot" dancing tonight.......found it extremely difficult with beginners but I was more successful with more experienced dancers.

I do not think I could enjoy dancing like this all the time though.!! :what:

Gadget
2nd-July-2004, 11:23 AM
FWIW, here's my thoughts on 'slotted dancing':

Why we dance in circles.
Because it's natural and flowing. Wrap a lady into a basket, and the momentum rotates you slightly. Draw a lady behind you for a catapult and you take a gentle step right to line up. On a step-across, you step to her left and turn to face....Most movements involve moving the lady to your right or stepping lightly left. Most ladies don't spin on the spot; they 'step' and spin (normally stepping to the right).
If the lady is going to be "out of position" relative to the floor, it will be more to the right; then the man rotates slightly to face "square on". If they over-rotate, the man will compensate by stepping slightly to the left and rotating.
Round and round we go.

Why dance in a 'Slot'?
Several arguments, but all fairly weak - If you like dancing in circles, then continue.
- Takes up less space; you can get more folk in a venue and on the floor if everyone would just keep to their "slot" {line dancing anyone?}
- Looks more controlled; you are actually 'dancing' rather than just moving with the music.
- Moves are taught linearly; If you are learning from the teacher, and you dance in class in a line, why change it for freestyle?
- Easier to follow; the lady gets more idea of where she should be, regardless of the man's lead.
- Better floor-craft; you know where people are going to be and where you are going to lead the lady - less accidental impacts.
- Better use of space; it is easier to see and take advantage of spatial openings around you on the dance floor

How to dance "slotted"
Imagine a thick line, the width of your body, extending from you to your partner on the floor. It extends beyond them and behind you. All moves should move along this line and end up on this line. Keeping within it is not vital, as long as you are parallel, move along it and return to it.

Expanding this concept, you get "cross shaped" dancing {I first was introduced to this by Marc at a fairly recent workshop}.
Narrow that slot and put a shorter one extending right/left to either side of the lead. Now the object is to actually contain all moves within this cross - leading the lady to move forward and back along the slot and stepping onto your tangent slot to get out of her way. Step off the cross and the crocodiles get you.
This is really hard to master - but I think that it works well. On some traditionally "circular" moves, you move the lady onto your 'slot' and everything snaps round 90 degrees. And again, and again...
One of the more difficult things to do is to make sure that all your turns, spins and flowing movements stop so that the angles of the cross shape are maintained.

Personally, I think that it takes a lot of concentration and very good leading (&following) to be able to pull it off. Once it's embedded, it should be easier, but the precision required can only improve your dancing. (At least I hope so...:D)

As a side effect, I've found that I do a lot more "walks" since trying this method of dancing (and I have never 'liked' walk moves :what: )

{BTW I am both flattered and humbled that any comments I make here affect anyone's dancing :blush: - I'm not a teacher, I'm not even a taxi dancer; I just have a passion for this dance we call MJ. I only hope any influence is in a positive way. (and nothing to do with licking eyeballs :whistle: )}

under par
2nd-July-2004, 11:32 AM
FWIW, here's my thoughts on 'slotted dancing':

Why we dance in circles.
Because it's natural and flowing. Wrap a lady into a basket, and the momentum rotates you slightly. Draw a lady behind you for a catapult and you take a gentle step right to line up. On a step-across, you step to her left and turn to face....Most movements involve moving the lady to your right or stepping lightly left. Most ladies don't spin on the spot; they 'step' and spin (normally stepping to the right).
If the lady is going to be "out of position" relative to the floor, it will be more to the right; then the man rotates slightly to face "square on". If they over-rotate, the man will compensate by stepping slightly to the left and rotating.
Round and round we go.

Why dance in a 'Slot'?
Several arguments, but all fairly weak - If you like dancing in circles, then continue.
- Takes up less space; you can get more folk in a venue and on the floor if everyone would just keep to their "slot" {line dancing anyone?}
- Looks more controlled; you are actually 'dancing' rather than just moving with the music.
- Moves are taught linearly; If you are learning from the teacher, and you dance in class in a line, why change it for freestyle?
- Easier to follow; the lady gets more idea of where she should be, regardless of the man's lead.
- Better floor-craft; you know where people are going to be and where you are going to lead the lady - less accidental impacts.
- Better use of space; it is easier to see and take advantage of spatial openings around you on the dance floor

How to dance "slotted"
Imagine a thick line, the width of your body, extending from you to your partner on the floor. It extends beyond them and behind you. All moves should move along this line and end up on this line. Keeping within it is not vital, as long as you are parallel, move along it and return to it.

Expanding this concept, you get "cross shaped" dancing {I first was introduced to this by Marc at a fairly recent workshop}.
Narrow that slot and put a shorter one extending right/left to either side of the lead. Now the object is to actually contain all moves within this cross - leading the lady to move forward and back along the slot and stepping onto your tangent slot to get out of her way. Step off the cross and the crocodiles get you.
This is really hard to master - but I think that it works well. On some traditionally "circular" moves, you move the lady onto your 'slot' and everything snaps round 90 degrees. And again, and again...
One of the more difficult things to do is to make sure that all your turns, spins and flowing movements stop so that the angles of the cross shape are maintained.

Personally, I think that it takes a lot of concentration and very good leading (&following) to be able to pull it off. Once it's embedded, it should be easier, but the precision required can only improve your dancing. (At least I hope so...:D)

As a side effect, I've found that I do a lot more "walks" since trying this method of dancing (and I have never 'liked' walk moves :what: )

{BTW I am both flattered and humbled that any comments I make here affect anyone's dancing :blush: - I'm not a teacher, I'm not even a taxi dancer; I just have a passion for this dance we call MJ. I only hope any influence is in a positive way. (and nothing to do with licking eyeballs :whistle:)}


Excellent post again Gadget I personally get a lot out of your postings. :cheers:

Long may it continue. :yeah:

You have certainly given me lots of things to think about when I go out dancing.

I have taken to more walks too!! :what:

Trish
2nd-July-2004, 12:19 PM
I've just been thinking about this slotted dancing and trying to work out what I do when I lead (which I do quite frequently - there often aren't enough men at Peterborough). I think I have tended to do a lot of circle dancing, but have recently realised that I prefer it when men lead me in a cross or a line for at least some of the time, so I have tried to transfer this to my own leading. I agree with Gadget (if I've understood his point correctly!), that the reason you tend to dance in circles is often to compensate for the girl getting slightly off the line. I have now got to a stage where I dance in circles for a while and then try to vary it with a more linear move such as a walk. Hopefully the girls dancing with me will find this more interesting. Surely Slotted moves all the time are just as samey as circling moves all the time? And also I would have thought that as long as you look out for where you're going, and lead into the space, then circling can be just as successful. Or am I wrong about that?

Trish

Rhythm King
2nd-July-2004, 12:34 PM
I learned a lot of my MJ in a small, crowded venue, where slotted dancing was the norm. We had a truly excellent, Latin-influenced teacher (Michaela Walker :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: ), who, amongst other things, taught us to make good use of floor space as it became available, including various walks, promenades etc, but to remain situationally aware, in order to avoid stealing other people's intended manouevre room and to protect our partners. As I've moved round the MJ circuit, I have come across a certain number of ladies who will dance in a circle, no matter how hard you try to keep them in line (short of brute force :wink: ). Aside from becoming dizzy, it cuts down severely on one's choice of leadable moves and variations and therefore I don't care for it (he says as diplomatically as he can :whistle: ).
Whether I use slot, or cross, or every inch of available space is therefore dependent on manouevre room, confidence of/with partner and musical interpretation.

Stuart M
2nd-July-2004, 12:54 PM
I've started practicing dancing more in a slot recently, mainly to try to cut down on my floorspace use, and also to try the cross thing Marc taught in his workshop.

Thing is, I've developed a suspicion that the circling starts as a way of compensating for followers not turning/returning on the spot - Trish has already noted this above. More pertinently, it's a way for leads to disguise the lack of precision in their lead*, which is usually the cause of followers not turning/returning on the spot.

Thoughts? It's just a theory - happy to see it shot down by the experts out there.

*Could even be argued that it's a form of imprecise lead in itself!

Trish
2nd-July-2004, 01:35 PM
I've started practicing dancing more in a slot recently, mainly to try to cut down on my floorspace use, and also to try the cross thing Marc taught in his workshop.

Thing is, I've developed a suspicion that the circling starts as a way of compensating for followers not turning/returning on the spot - Trish has already noted this above. More pertinently, it's a way for leads to disguise the lack of precision in their lead*, which is usually the cause of followers not turning/returning on the spot.

Thoughts? It's just a theory - happy to see it shot down by the experts out there.

*Could even be argued that it's a form of imprecise lead in itself!
You could be right there Stuart, perhaps these ladies are out of position because I don't lead them right, although I think I'm fairly precise (I shall have to watch myself and try to work out if this is the case).

I think the problem I have with this is that as a lot of the Peterborough ladies I dance with are fairly inexperienced dancers, they pull the lead off-centre as they haven't learnt to spin on the spot. I am sure this is the case with beginners when I'm taxi dancing, as I often find my shoulders aching from trying to keep them from spinning into other people and causing an injury! Perhaps I just need to go down the gym and develop the muscles to lead them or stop worrying about it and just let them collide!

Peterborough is often crowded, so if beginners are totally off-centre I'll try to get them to dance at the side away from the main dance floor to avoid these problems. Everyone's got to start somewhere, and I was probably the worst spinner you've ever come across when I first started!

Actually I think my dancing is perhaps a little more linear when I dance with the more experienced girls, as they don't look at you blankly if you ask them to do a columbian or lead them into some walk.

DavidB
2nd-July-2004, 01:51 PM
Thought it was tome to confuse everyone.

There is a concept taught in Hustle of a 'rotating slot'. Instead of imagining a simple slot or a cross, think about a bicycle wheel with spokes. The man is the axle, and stays roughly in the middle. The spokes don't go straight through the centre of the axle - they touch the edge of the axle. The lady goes from one point on the wheel rim to another via the spokes, and not around the rim. (That would make her tyred...) She won't make it all the way to the opposite end of the slot - instead she will be slightly to one side.

You still get most of the benefits of keeping the dance slotted (the look, the control, the safety) but you do take up more space than a pure slot.

A slot can be hard to keep to with faster music. A 'rotating slot' makes things a bit easier.

Graham W
2nd-July-2004, 01:52 PM
Nigel & Nina teach slotting well, too

If more people took it up it's great for crowded dance floors & challenging..

G :-)

RobC
2nd-July-2004, 02:19 PM
There is a concept taught in Hustle of a 'rotating slot'. Instead of imagining a simple slot or a cross, think about a bicycle wheel with spokes. The man is the axle, and stays roughly in the middle.
So that's how you get to dance on the spot and make the women do all the travelling ? :wink:

thewacko
2nd-July-2004, 03:15 PM
As a follower one doesn't have much choice, if the lead is dancing in a slot and you're follwing, you dance in a slot.....
OK i am one of the three who can not grasp what you are all talking about so :D
Em my love looks like i will have to have a dance with you again so you can enlighten me, and if I like it I may try some slotting on you! :cheers:

Zebra Woman
2nd-July-2004, 03:20 PM
I like a mixture of slot and swirling depending on the music. But for expressive dancing I think the slot has more opportunities.

When a venue gets really crowded and also if I'm tired I only really want to dance in a slot. I feel much safer and it's even better if the surrounding dancers are slot dancing too.

I have danced with a vigorous swirler at a really crowded venue and we collided with another couple a few times. The other man said 'watch it mate' then after two more bumps, he stopped dancing to tell my partner off. I was actually relieved he'd spoken, 'cos I was getting a bit battered and was starting to worry about the next hit. Embarrassing, but IMHO on a busy dance floor reckless swirling can be anti-social. :blush:

My slot dancing near- collisions have been more amusing than painful, I have been up close face to face with other women, hastily reversed out of a columbian , when another couple have advanced, and had some funny stand-offs. There is more time to play with the other couple and it can turn into a game. :D

Andy McGregor
2nd-July-2004, 03:33 PM
I have danced with a vigorous swirler at a really crowded venue and we collided with another couple a few times. The other man said 'watch it mate' then after two more bumps, he stopped dancing to tell my partner off. I was actually relieved he'd spoken, 'cos I was getting a bit battered and was starting to worry about the next hit. Embarrassing, but IMHO on a busy dance floor reckless swirling can be anti-social. :blush:

Was this me?:devil:

I usually just glare like this:mad:

The guys that dance in circles on a busy dance floor must think that they're so good all the other dancers are giving them room. Meanwhile, us slotted dancers are dancing smaller and smaller to keep out of their way:tears:

Someone recently told me about a Paris dance club where the slots are marked out on the floor and people get chucked off the floor if they stray out of their slots - you'd have to give those swirling dancers at least 3 slots: maybe they should pay 3 times as much to come in as well:wink:

Zebra Woman
2nd-July-2004, 03:59 PM
Was this me?:devil:
:
No but feel free to speak out in future...please

I have experienced the shrinking dance space many times. It is often really good dancers being squeezed out by the space grabbers. It takes them a great deal of thought and skill to keep the woman safe, no wonder they don't get into the groove on those nights. :mad:
There are a few slot dancing men who seem to maintain their space effortlessly no matter how bad it gets, I don't know how they do it. :worthy:

How do you do it guys? :confused:

RobC
2nd-July-2004, 04:04 PM
The guys that dance in circles on a busy dance floor must think that they're so good all the other dancers are giving them room. Meanwhile, us slotted dancers are dancing smaller and smaller to keep out of their way:tears:
Personally if I find myself dancing next to one of these inconsiderate types, I tend to back into 'their dance space' and do a few moves where I'm stationary and keep my partner just out of their reach. When they invariable collide with me, trust me, they feel it more than I do, and I'm in the right 'cos I'm stationary and they came into me :waycool:

IMHO, slotted dancing is the only way to dance safely on a crowded floor, and everyone ought to be taught how to do it. :rolleyes: What am I saying - everyone is taught how to dance in a straight line - afterall, that's exactly what they should be doing in their lessons. So why do dancers regress into circle dancing ? :confused:

RobC
2nd-July-2004, 04:24 PM
There are a few slot dancing men who seem to maintain their space effortlessly no matter how bad it gets, I don't know how they do it. :worthy:
It's not effortlessly, trust me. :(

Andy McGregor
2nd-July-2004, 04:36 PM
How do you do it guys? :confused:

I think you eat all your greens and grow big and strong :waycool:

Or, in the case of some guys, you eat all the pies :whistle:

Katie
3rd-July-2004, 04:54 PM
I was once asked whether i was originally a west coast swing dancer and i replied that i knew the basics but was mainly a modern jive dancer. He said that i should be doing WCS instead, which offended me a little. Throughout the whole dance, he was laughing at me because whenever he tried to lead me i would force him back into the slot. I insisted that i wasn't! He described me as a 'train' going whoosh from point A to point B, but then he still asked me for another dance so i couldn't have been that bad!

Anyway, i do favour slotted dancing as opposed to circle dancing but more recently i prefer Amir's style of travelling as well as slotted dancing. Slotted dancing for a whole track can appear too structured IMO. Sometimes, not having a set place for the lady to be in is refreshing. However, being a lady we get variety whenever we switch partners.

Lory
3rd-July-2004, 05:04 PM
I have danced with a vigorous swirler at a really crowded venue and we collided with another couple a few times. ~snip~ I was getting a bit battered and was starting to worry about the next hit.
I think I got him last night! :angry:

This guy thought he was really good, dancing BIG and swirling me all over the place, with no regard for where I was going to end up! He wasn't watching and HE wasn't the one bumping into everyone! Ouch! :tears: I actually did a polite ducking wincing smile and said 'oops careful', a couple of times but he just laughed it off! Taking it as a joke!

I was glad when the track ended! :sick:

Luckily he was the exception rather than the rule. And there was an announcement made later on, asking people to be considerate, as the floor was crowded! :clap:

As for slot dancing, as Emma said, the girl really has no choice, it's totally in the mans hands! :innocent:

Zebra Woman
3rd-July-2004, 06:44 PM
He wasn't there Lory, he hasn't come back since he was criticised, but there were plenty of replacements eh? With all that swirling going on, it was hard to relax even when my partner was experienced and sticking to a slot. I'm glad JB spoke up.

BTW The all of the Forumites I danced with were SLOT-TASTIC!!
Thank you guys, you know who you are :hug: :kiss: :worthy: :flower:

Lory
3rd-July-2004, 09:36 PM
He wasn't there Lory,
Must have been his brother then! :rolleyes:



BTW The all of the Forumites I danced with were SLOT-TASTIC!!
Thank you guys, you know who you are :hug: :kiss: :worthy:
:yeah: I'd go as far as to say SLOT-ILLIANT! :worthy: :D

ChrisA
3rd-July-2004, 10:42 PM
As for slot dancing, as Emma said, the girl really has no choice, it's totally in the mans hands! :innocent:
Often this is true, but not always.

There are ladies (and you're not one of them :flower: ) who seem determined to travel round the guy in a clockwise manner, regardless of what is led. So, for example, any return becomes a travelling one, and the slot rotates clockwise through some arbitrary angle.

The guy (ie moi) has carefully planned the move to finish where other dancers aren't, but these ladies are determined to foil such carefully laid plans. So they travel wherever they will, often into the path of other muppets.

Thus reducing the guy (whose priority is to ensure the safety of his lady) to a nervous wreck, because it makes the task staggeringly difficult. :tears:

Chris

Gadget
3rd-July-2004, 10:53 PM
:yeah::D

Andy McGregor
4th-July-2004, 02:18 AM
:yeah::D

So, come on Gadget, which bit of ChrisA's post is 'yeah that' was it the bit about Lory being a clockwise follow - which I haven't found BTW, I've always thought she is fab.

Or was is some other bit of ChrisA's post? A bit more precision if you please:innocent:

RobC
4th-July-2004, 06:47 AM
The guy (ie moi) has carefully planned the move to finish where other dancers aren't, but these ladies are determined to foil such carefully laid plans. So they travel wherever they will, often into the path of other muppets.

:yeah:
However, these women tend to be relative beginners who still haven't mastered the art of following, and dare I say it, are trying to back lead moves, and anticipate (wrongly) the moves we are leading. :sad:
When their following improves, this annoying trait of circle dancing usually fades with it. :clap:

ChrisA
4th-July-2004, 09:19 AM
:yeah:
However, these women tend to be relative beginners who still haven't mastered the art of following, and dare I say it, are trying to back lead moves, and anticipate (wrongly) the moves we are leading. :sad:
When their following improves, this annoying trait of circle dancing usually fades with it. :clap:
If only :tears:

The ones I'm thinking of have been dancing for ages.

Chris

Minnie M
4th-July-2004, 10:39 AM
If only :tears:

The ones I'm thinking of have been dancing for ages.

Chris

Hate to say this :blush: but it is true :(

I can lead the basic 6 moves in WCS and when in a line up, there are a few "experienced" followers who insist of "travelling" when following :rolleyes: even when being lead by a fellow woman they still think they know - Following is so much more fun :D

Emma
4th-July-2004, 11:17 AM
So, come on Gadget, which bit of ChrisA's post is 'yeah that' was it the bit about Lory being a clockwise follow - which I haven't found BTW, I've always thought she is fab.

Or was is some other bit of ChrisA's post? A bit more precision if you please:innocent:Er...doesn't it rather specifically say in Chris' post that Lory is not a clockwise follow? :flower:

ChrisA
4th-July-2004, 11:26 AM
Er...doesn't it rather specifically say in Chris' post that Lory is not a clockwise follow? :flower:
Thank you, Emma.

Andy - SLAP :mad:

Get your reading glasses out before posting next time... :wink:

TheTramp
4th-July-2004, 11:32 AM
If only :tears:

The ones I'm thinking of have been dancing for ages.
I'd agree with you. I know some ladies who are great to dance with.... except for the circular motion.

Sometimes I just stop, and stand, and look at the place where I expected them to be :wink: Some of them even get the idea!!

The other thing I do, is lead them in counter clockwise moves. Some of them get the idea then too.

Of course, I imagine that they know that they are doing it (in a couple of cases, we've discussed it). But just can't seem to control themselves...

Trampy

Andy McGregor
4th-July-2004, 12:25 PM
Er...doesn't it rather specifically say in Chris' post that Lory is not a clockwise follow? :flower:

:blush:

Sorry Chris and Gadget:flower::flower:

I should read more slowly. I thought ChrisA had made a typo as it was so obviously wrong about Lory's dancing: and all the time it was a crossed wire in my head:tears:

Maybe I was just trying to catch up with ChrisA's 2000+ posts :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

Lory
4th-July-2004, 12:51 PM
All of the above! :blush: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sheepman
5th-July-2004, 12:42 PM
He described me as a 'train' going whoosh from point A to point B, but then he still asked me for another dance so i couldn't have been that bad! :rofl: This is what really surprised me when I heard about it, as Kate is one of the best dancers around. I suppose I have rarely been "forced back into the slot" by my partner, because I dance "slotted" anyway. And guys, how nice is it when you lead someone (eg) forward, that they should move forward, rather than having to be dragged! Though the train analogy is unfair, as that describes something unstoppable! :really: :wink:


1). The man leaves the lady's line free.
2). The lady dances in a slot.

1) doesn't necessarily imply 2) as you can rotate, but still keep the lady's line free. This is an important point. In West Coast Swing you do 1) - if the man gets in the ladies way, (assuming he hasn't deliberately blocked her to send her back where she came from), she is at liberty to barge him/kick him/reprimand him, because in general through this dance, the lady is "the queen" and the guy has to get out of her way. Although MJ can be danced in this way, it isn't normally, so here the slot is about keeping in line, (as you do in a lesson) with moves starting and ending at the end of the slot. This doesn't prevent circular or sweeping moves, but should prevent the lady stepping back or spinning off in some unexpected direction and smacking into somebody.

I agree with Amir about making the dance look more interesting by going away from the slot, but how much of it is supposed to be about look when you are dancing freestyle in a crowded venue? The safety angle is much more important there. (And if you want people to be watching you - you have to do it at the side of the dance floor - which (if it is crowded) inevitable means you have to dance in a slot.)

On Saturday night, I was saying to one lady I regularly dance with, "I need to do some West Coast to this track, but there are only 4 west coasters here." She insisted I try it with her, as she had done "some west coast." We proceeded to have a part slotted, part circular west coast, her perception of west coast obviously didn't recognise the slot! It made me feel less bad about the number of missed holds and fluffed moves in our MJ, as she was rarely where I expected her to be, (though I suffered plenty of aches from trying to get her there.)


Slotted dancing for a whole track can appear too structured IMO. Sometimes, not having a set place for the lady to be in is refreshing. OK, now I'm told. :tears:

Greg

Zebra Woman
5th-July-2004, 01:51 PM
[QUOTE=Sheepman
OK, now I'm told. :tears:
Greg[/QUOTE]

No no don't be told. We're all different, and that's a very good thing. I don't feel bored in your slot ever, although if we wandered out of the slot for a bit that too would be fine. :worthy:

For the record, I am happy to spend the whole evening in a slot. :kiss: :kiss:

(I chose those smileys 'cos they're moving in a slot, see how much fun they have, and they aren't interfering with anyone either :rofl: )

Alison :hug:

Bill
5th-July-2004, 02:12 PM
Often this is true, but not always.

There are ladies (and you're not one of them :flower: ) who seem determined to travel round the guy in a clockwise manner, regardless of what is led. So, for example, any return becomes a travelling one, and the slot rotates clockwise through some arbitrary angle.

Chris

Can be frustrating dancing with a woman who keeps doing this and although I don't always dance in a slot I find it off putting when I feel I'm chasing a woman round in a circle. and it's often women who have been dancing for quite a while and just find it impossible to stay still or to simply step in and back !! The find myself trying hard to keep the tension and 'pull' her on a slot. All part of the joy of dancing mj........ :rolleyes:

Sparkles
5th-July-2004, 02:28 PM
Surely the best dances are the ones that use both slotted and circular moves? Slotted when there's little space, circular or travelling when there's a bit more room. It's all about using the space available.

I confess sometimes I lead when dancing as a lady, but it's usually because I feel that the lead I'm given is ambiguous and open to interptretation (though I am trying to stop doing it at all). If I'm following and not making mistakes I'll happily go in a circle, travel, keep it small, dance close, slotted or whatever my partner leads, but I do do what he leads - so if he leads me badly...
...Actually I've been know before now to just stand still when dancing with someone who's not got consideration for those around them and only do the moves that are led when I know I'm not going to hit anyone else. It might look a bit rude, but I think the other people on the floor would prefer not to have me being thrown into them!

I have to say I was fortunate enough to dance with some amazing people on Friday at Hipsters (most of which are on this forum :flower: ) and on several occasions they took hits from men and women that were using their dancing space badly, but they took the hits by putting themselves in the way in order to protect me (Rob (among others), you're an angel). Chivalry, ladies, is most certainly not dead on the MJ scene :clap:

Sparkles
5th-July-2004, 02:32 PM
Also... I was dancing with a guy the other night and he walked straight into me when he lead a return on the spot (which I followed) - ended up with him standing on me and almost head-butting me!
I said "what happened there?"
his reply "you didn't move."
I said "you didn't lead me to move"
his reply "No, I know, but a lot of women do anyway..."
...nuff said?

Sheepman
5th-July-2004, 03:05 PM
(I chose those smileys 'cos they're moving in a slot, see how much fun they have, and they aren't interfering with anyone either :rofl: ) :rofl: :cheers: :cheers: :rofl:
Now I'm trying to work out which smileys are not in a slot, how sad is that!

Greg

Gadget
5th-July-2004, 03:10 PM
Surely the best dances are the ones that use both slotted and circular moves? Slotted when there's little space, circular or travelling when there's a bit more room. It's all about using the space available.
personally, I don't agree with this: when dancing in a "slot", you are limited to the one plane and moves have to be changed to match other dancers moving in/out of it. When dancing in circles, you are at more of an advantage to use the space because you are not restricted to this linear model; slide into a space and take your partner with you; send her into an opening space and follow; step round untill an appropriate space appears; ...
Sure, when it's crowded and all you've got is a slot at the edge of the dance floor, dance in a slot. But when you're dancing with severly limited ammounts of space, circular dancing wins it for me. (Is "blues" circular, or is it just so lethargic no-one can tell :wink:)

RobC
5th-July-2004, 03:33 PM
personally, I don't agree with this: when dancing in a "slot", you are limited to the one plane and moves have to be changed to match other dancers moving in/out of it. When dancing in circles, you are at more of an advantage to use the space because you are not restricted to this linear model; slide into a space and take your partner with you; send her into an opening space and follow; step round untill an appropriate space appears; ...
Sure, when it's crowded and all you've got is a slot at the edge of the dance floor, dance in a slot. But when you're dancing with severly limited ammounts of space, circular dancing wins it for me. (Is "blues" circular, or is it just so lethargic no-one can tell :wink:)
Hmm, just though of an interesting analogy. It's kinda like the linear movement of a hedgetrimmer against the spinning of a lawnmower blade. Both can be devastating in the wrong hands, but in the hands of a skilled master, the hedge trimmer can produce some masterful works of art :rolleyes:

Jayne
5th-July-2004, 04:29 PM
Re: Space Grabbers....
I'll say nothing about Lindy Hoppers.... :whistle:

Actually, I'd like to clarify that before I get shot down... I have no problem with good Lindy Hoppers, it's the ones that look as if they're having some kind of fit that annoy me (and you all know what I mean, huh?).

Re: Dancing in a slot...
I've been away for the last few days so i've only just read this thread. It seems that all of this discussion has been focussed on social dancing, especially on a crowded dance floor. However, I was wondering what people thought about the slotted style for competition dancing (a beast unto itself compared to social dancing, as we've discussed elsewhere). Chris & I have received huge amounts of feedback in the last few months (thank you! :flower: ) and, rather predictably, some of it has been contradictory. On the one hand we've been advised to do *more* slotted dancing, but someone else has suggested that we do *less* (and both people are well respected teachers in the MJ scene).

So what's the opinion on the look of slotted dancing in comps?

J :nice:

Sheepman
5th-July-2004, 04:44 PM
when dancing in a "slot", you are limited to the one plane and moves have to be changed to match other dancers moving in/out of it. But this doesn't happen when the other dancers are also slotted!
When dancing in circles, you are at more of an advantage to use the space because you are not restricted to this linear model; slide into a space and take your partner with you; send her into an opening space and follow; step round untill an appropriate space appears; ...
Either you have a lot more space at your venues, or you're taking the "slot" too literally, or both. Don't forget that with slotted dancing you can go for the "cross" if there is space, you can then relocate your slot if you want, or return to the original one, and as I've already said, slotted dancing doesn't mean you can't do circular moves.

(Is "blues" circular, or is it just so lethargic no-one can tell :wink:)I've seen blues done as a slotted dance, and non-slotted. Another dance where I could not give a definition of what the dance is, (but I think there was another thread on this.)

Greg

Andy McGregor
5th-July-2004, 04:51 PM
[i] However, I was wondering what people thought about the slotted style for competition dancing (a beast unto itself compared to social dancing, as we've discussed elsewhere). Chris & I have received huge amounts of feedback in the last few months (thank you! :flower: ) and, rather predictably, some of it has been contradictory. On the one hand we've been advised to do *more* slotted dancing, but someone else has suggested that we do *less* (and both people are well respected teachers in the MJ scene).

So what's the opinion on the look of slotted dancing in comps?

J :nice:

For once I'm going to agree with everybody. I think that you need to dance slotted when the judges are sat along a table or in a line - you need to present yourself to them by having a front that is one side of your slot. But when the judges are the audience or walking around it's difficult to know where the 'front' is so I think you need to dance in a circle - although, for me, that means rotating your slot as DavidB described on this thread.

On the subject of social dancing I always dance in a slot but where space allows I might move my slot through 90 degrees, maybe 45 degrees and possibly 22.5 degrees to add a bit of variety. But I still dance with my partner in a slot - at least that's what happens in my head:confused:

RobC
5th-July-2004, 04:52 PM
On the one hand we've been advised to do *more* slotted dancing, but someone else has suggested that we do *less* (and both people are well respected teachers in the MJ scene).

IMHO, when dancing in a competition, you need to be angling your line of dance to optimally show off your moves to the judges. When you only have 5 judges all sat at one stationary point, I would say that the choice is easy, and depending on your moves, most of the time you want to be travelling parallel (slotted) to where the judges are sitting, giving the 'illusion' of large flowing movements. (The bigger the movement, the more the eye notices it).

If however the judges are spread around the room, such as in a lucky dip round, or in the Jive Masters, where your judges are all around you, then maybe there is more call for 'circular dancing', although personally, I would still dance slotted, but periodically rotate the slot to better highlight my moves to the other 'judges' around me.

Andy McGregor
5th-July-2004, 04:54 PM
IMHO, when dancing in a competition,


I always knew RobC and I were twins, separated at birth, obviously:devil:

RobC
5th-July-2004, 04:55 PM
For once I'm going to agree with everybody. I think that you need to dance slotted when the judges are sat along a table or in a line - you need to present yourself to them by having a front that is one side of your slot. But when the judges are the audience or walking around it's difficult to know where the 'front' is so I think you need to dance in a circle - although, for me, that means rotating your slot as DavidB described on this thread.

Are we psychic or what ? :really:
We wrote almost exactly the same thing at the same time. Looks like we've been spending too much time in each others company :blush:

Gadget
5th-July-2004, 04:58 PM
Either you have a lot more space at your venues, or you're taking the "slot" too literally, or both. Don't forget that with slotted dancing you can go for the "cross" if there is space, you can then relocate your slot if you want, or return to the original one, and as I've already said, slotted dancing doesn't mean you can't do circular moves.
Is there much difference between "rotating your slot" and "circular dancing"?

Just now I have l o a d s o f s p a c e to dance in, so I've not really experienced trying to slot in a tight spot - but if the space around you is moving in a random "amoeba" form, trying to dance in a structured linear format seems quite pointless to me.

{Don't tell me you've never trimmed hedges with a fly-mow... :whistle: I haven't tried cutting grass with a hedge trimmer yet tho.}

Andy McGregor
5th-July-2004, 04:58 PM
Are we psychic or what ? :really:
We wrote almost exactly the same thing at the same time. Looks like we've been spending too much time in each others company :blush:

..and snap again:wink:


Maybe we've just spent too much time thinking about the same things.

Sheepman
5th-July-2004, 05:21 PM
So what's the opinion on the look of slotted dancing in comps?

A few examples from successful competitors, (apologies if I've got any of these the wrong way round):-

Slotted dancers
Nigel & Nina
Clayton & Janine
David & Lily
Trampy

Not Slotted
Viktor (though I think Viktor was slotted when he appeared on Come Dancing in 1993 - it's a tough call for my memory!)

Both (ie the majority of the dancing is slotted)
Will & Kate
Tas & Adam
Amir

I'm struggling to draw conclusions from that yet.

Greg

RobC
6th-July-2004, 02:12 PM
Well I thought I would go out last night to a venue I don't often go to and carry out a bit of research and observation into the 'circle dancing' phenomenom.

Firstly, my observations from watching other couples dance. Without making any judgement to how long these couples had been dancing (although they were all participating in the N&N 'advanced' class), with most of the couples, it appeared as though the circular movement was being caused primarily by the guy not moving - not moving in and out with the step backs etc, and definitely not moving out of their partner's line when doing moves like the travelling return, sway or basket. As a result of the males blocking their path, the ladies were forced off their line as they had to dance around their partner, starting off a rotational trend which continued into the next move and the next.....

I then thought I would ask some of these ladies for a dance and see if it was just the male lead causing it, or if there was a 'follower' contributing factor as well. Some of them followed me perfectly, sliding in and out of every slotted move I threw at them - obviously a male 'leading' problem there then. :devil:

For some other ladies, it appeared as though they weren't paying enough attention to my lead, or where I was in relation to them, and because they had gotten into the habit of dancing around their 'stationary partners', they continued trying to do the same with me, even though I had moved off their line and left a clear path in the direction of the empty space I wanted them to move into. :sad:

Then there was just one or two ladies who were just dancing badly, and probably hadn't been taught any better. An example of this being, not turning/returning on the spot, but step turning and travelling while they do it. This of course resulted in them moving around me, or me having to move to compensate for them. Another example being anticipation of moves and turning out too early in moves such as the first move and neck break instead of waiting for the guy to turn them. This also appears to induce a rotational movement and I was having to give them a very firm lead to keep them from straying off the 'slot' and into the adjacent couple on the floor. :tears:

Some of these women I did know, and I know I have seen them at various dance venue over the last couple of years, so I know they have been dancing for a while, however those that fell in the latter 2 categories above, I would not describe as much better than a low intermediate standard.

So my conclusions ? I think I still stand by my earlier statement where, at least from the follower's perspective, the tendancy to dance in a circle disappears the better they get. :clap:

Sparkles
6th-July-2004, 04:48 PM
So my conclusions ? I think I still stand by my earlier statement where, at least from the follower's perspective, the tendancy to dance in a circle disappears the better they get. :clap:

Hurray for science! :clap: :flower:

Andy McGregor
6th-July-2004, 05:35 PM
So my conclusions ? I think I still stand by my earlier statement where, at least from the follower's perspective, the tendancy to dance in a circle disappears the better they get. :clap:

And an experienced dancer would never say "you're pushing me around" :confused:

..when all you're trying to do is lead them:tears:

under par
9th-July-2004, 01:58 AM
Well I thought I would go out last night to a venue I don't often go to and carry out a bit of research and observation into the 'circle dancing' phenomenom..............snip...................... ........

So my conclusions ? I think I still stand by my earlier statement where, at least from the follower's perspective, the tendancy to dance in a circle disappears the better they get. :clap:



Rob an excellent bit of research and well presented I would never have the patience to follow it through. :worthy:

I now know who you are ...... you were pointed out to me on Wednesday or was it Tuesday ! at Ealing. .........I will say hello next time I see you.

Simon r
9th-July-2004, 06:14 AM
I have been keeping an eye on this thread and after Wednesday at Hipsters just thought I would add a little info:
For those experts that have been telling us in great detail how their slotted dancing is superior to (now what were the words) that was it “to other Muppets".
Well firstly they may have slotted to a fashion, but the idea is to hold your line and not to cross on to other dancers lines and then snake across the floor. I was amazed just how poor their appreciation of other dancers was.
Interesting do you not think Mr Bond

ChrisA
9th-July-2004, 08:57 AM
I have been keeping an eye on this thread and after Wednesday at Hipsters just thought I would add a little info:
For those experts that have been telling us in great detail how there slotted dancing is superior to (now what were the words) that was it “to other Muppets".
Well firstly may have slotted to a fashion, but the idea is to hold your line and not to cross on to other dancers lines and then snake across the floor. I was amazed just how poor there appreciation of other dancers was.
Interesting do you not think Mr Bond

Hmm. I've used the term muppets.

Not in the context of my slotted dancing being superior to anyone else's, which I wouldn't claim at all, but at the same time I seem to be the only one to have have used the term on this thread.

Is this a dig at me, Simon? If so, then I'd prefer any criticism to be open so that I can see my fault and apologise for it, rather than this which seems rather snide to me. :tears:

There was a track where just for a laugh and to do something a bit different I tried to find the gaps and travel around the whole room with my partner. I was very careful not to interfere with anyone else's dancing (and I certainly recall no bumps), but if I was less successful than I thought, or got in your way Simon, or anyone else's you were watching, then I happily apologise to you, or to them if they're reading.

Chris :flower:

Andy McGregor
9th-July-2004, 10:31 AM
I was very careful not to interfere with anyone else's dancing (and I certainly recall no bumps),

Hey Chris, I think it was me. I went around banging into people I knew, especially if they were gincing :whistle:

But it was only a gentle nudge:wink:

Bill
9th-July-2004, 12:21 PM
I have been keeping an eye on this thread and after Wednesday at Hipsters just thought I would add a little info:
Well firstly they may have slotted to a fashion, but the idea is to hold your line and not to cross on to other dancers lines and then snake across the floor. I was amazed just how poor their appreciation of other dancers was.
Interesting do you not think Mr Bond


I think this indicates a couple of assumptions ...firstly that all Hipsters' dancers are very good dancers (both lead and follow) and secondly there's room to 'slot' dance. There are some great dancers at Hipsters =- some of the best - but equally there are a number of new/inexperienced/ bad dancers there too.

I prefer the Wednesday because it's less busy and even trying to dance on a slot becomes difficult when there's not a lot of room.I've also seen some experienced dancers who take up a lot of room - perhaps because they feel they deserve the space ??? If we all danced like Davidb then we'd pack hundreds on the floor ..... big man.......great moves....small space :D

Gadget
9th-July-2004, 12:41 PM
For those experts that have been telling us in great detail how their slotted dancing is superior...
I admit that a lot of the discussion has been for the pro's of "slotted" dancing - but that's the title of the thread.
I like "circular" dancing - it flows and glides easily - getting "slotted" dancing to that level of smoothness is a huge challenge. The skill involved in actually dancing in this way primarily invloves being able to controll your partner's position on the floor: Once this skill is learned, you should be able to use it, no matter whether dancing "slotted","circular" or "squigally spiral thing", to make better use of your 'dance space'. {well, that's my theory anyway :)}

Actually learning/practicing/dancing in slots means that your partner is on train tracks... anyone else on those tracks can be in danger of being run down (if the lead has limited floor-craft.) Dancing in one shape or another will not IMHO improve or detract from floor-craft skills. (Which I think was the remainder of your post)

under par
9th-July-2004, 01:07 PM
I admit that a lot of the discussion has been for the pro's of "slotted" dancing - but that's the title of the thread.
I like "circular" dancing - it flows and glides easily - getting "slotted" dancing to that level of smoothness is a huge challenge. The skill involved in actually dancing in this way primarily invloves being able to controll your partner's position on the floor: Once this skill is learned, you should be able to use it, no matter whether dancing "slotted","circular" or "squigally spiral thing", to make better use of your 'dance space'. {well, that's my theory anyway :)}

Actually learning/practicing/dancing in slots means that your partner is on train tracks... anyone else on those tracks can be in danger of being run down (if the lead has limited floor-craft.) Dancing in one shape or another will not IMHO improve or detract from floor-craft skills. (Which I think was the remainder of your post)

The discussion has been enlightening and I have now got my head around a new concept as a result.

I have practised the slotted style a lot recently and I have done so to the detriment of my other regular moves, which have slowly evaporated from my mind!

I could not dance totally slotted in the future because I like to use the floor to move around quite a lot too.

The contol I have learned from trying to dance slotted has been brilliant, using slight hand touch/compressions to move the follower can only improve my technique.

But it is the variety of music and styles that make MJ what we love. :clap:

Sheepman
9th-July-2004, 01:18 PM
telling us in great detail how their slotted dancing is superior has anyone actually said that? (I do say that it is safer) I think we've agreed that the better followers are much easier to dance in a slot with, but that's mostly a lead and follow thing. Is there a parallel with the smoking debate here? I would defend your right of freedom to dance how you like and endanger yourself, as long as it doesn't interfere with others.

And I thought I did a good job of avoiding interference :eek: from Andy while I was west coasting :devil: I came close to a couple of bumps on Wednesday, but my motto is - if there's space use it!

Greg

Jive Brummie
9th-July-2004, 05:12 PM
Slotted dancing is all well and good...and safe....and all that, but only if you're dancing in a good crowd, with other considerate dancers. It's pointless trying to dance a certain way, is it not, if mr & mrs X are giving it big-licks next to you without a care in the world.

Have to be honest, and must apologise if this has been said already, but i personally find purely slotted dancing very dull :really: Don't mean to sound offensive there. I just think that dancing permanently in a slot looks as if you're just doing travelling returns. I think a mixture of slotted and circular dancing hits the right spot.........it just looks, feels and seems far more dynamic and easy on the eye.

Just a thought.

J x x

Sheepman
9th-July-2004, 05:41 PM
Have to be honest, and must apologise if this has been said already, but i personally find purely slotted dancing very dull :really: No offense taken, but to say that, it doesn't sound like you've ever seen Robert Cordoba in action (or Kyle & Sarah, etc, hopefully we'll get them over to this country sometime soon . . .) :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

Greg

spindr
9th-July-2004, 05:54 PM
Slotted dancing is all well and good...and safe....and all that, but only if you're dancing in a good crowd, with other considerate dancers. It's pointless trying to dance a certain way, is it not, if mr & mrs X are giving it big-licks next to you without a care in the world.

I always dance a certain way when mr & mrs X are giving it big-licks next to mewithout a care in the world -- usually I try and move out of the way -- and if that's not possible I keep myself between them and my partner.

If you're dancing slotted-style your partner can still travel, e.g. if you do a right side pass when your follower is on your left (travelling return) and a left side pass (no common MJ equiv.) when your follower is on your right, then the leader can effectively stay in place and protect one edge of the slot, as a precautionary measure.

SpinDr.

Jive Brummie
11th-July-2004, 02:35 PM
No offense taken, but to say that, it doesn't sound like you've ever seen Robert Cordoba in action (or Kyle & Sarah, etc, hopefully we'll get them over to this country sometime soon . . .) :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

Greg

Good. No offense intended.

Have to be honest yet again though. Whoever was dancing slotted and however great a couple they were, I'd still think it was dull....but all the best to Mr Cordoba, Kyle & Sarah etc etc.....enjoy your ......slots??!!

TheTramp
11th-July-2004, 03:20 PM
Ah. James.... I really think that you should wait and see before you say things like that.... I've only seen Robert and Deborah, and they are anything but dull.... :worthy:

(I've been told that I'm mainly a slotted dancer, so I apologise if I'm dull :tears: )

Trampy

Zebra Woman
11th-July-2004, 04:48 PM
I'd still think it was dull....
Dull? Dull? Dull???? :confused: :confused: :confused:

CANNOT COMPUTE


On the plus side Jive Brummie, I'll go wherever you lead me even if it is in circles all night. :drool:

Geordieed
12th-July-2004, 01:39 PM
Probably the best example anyone will see this year of slotted dancing will be at RebelYell this year. Jordan and Tatiana will be there this year. Plus anyone who saw Jodie and Paul would have seen how good it can look.

Can't wait

Trish
12th-July-2004, 03:30 PM
I admit that a lot of the discussion has been for the pro's of "slotted" dancing - but that's the title of the thread.
I like "circular" dancing - it flows and glides easily - getting "slotted" dancing to that level of smoothness is a huge challenge. The skill involved in actually dancing in this way primarily invloves being able to controll your partner's position on the floor: Once this skill is learned, you should be able to use it, no matter whether dancing "slotted","circular" or "squigally spiral thing", to make better use of your 'dance space'. {well, that's my theory anyway :)}

Actually learning/practicing/dancing in slots means that your partner is on train tracks... anyone else on those tracks can be in danger of being run down (if the lead has limited floor-craft.) Dancing in one shape or another will not IMHO improve or detract from floor-craft skills. (Which I think was the remainder of your post)

:yeah:

I have read all of this thread now (should really be getting on with my work!!!), and although I THINK I know what you're all talking about I can't be absolutely sure. Hopefully I'll meet up with one or other of you at some point and you can point it out to me to see if my understanding is correct.

Like Gadget, I also like circular dancing (if by that you mean being swirled round the floor in a haphazard fashion), or at least I like a mixture of styles when someone is dancing with me and I like to try to do a mixture of styles when leading. And like various people have said I don't really enjoy myself as much if whoever is leading is pinning me down to one small lane and not ever moving out of it. I do think though that this sometimes happens when the dancefloor is crowded. I tend to find if I'm leading and can do it, that if the spot I'm in is crowded I will do something like a very long columbian or a rather linear type of triple step and try to move somewhere less crowded (if poss.) Does that make me a slotted dancer if I then twirl the girl in a circle when I get there? Can't work this out! :what:

DavidB
12th-July-2004, 06:56 PM
3 points

If you watch a really good WCS couple, you won't see the lady sticking rigidly to a narrow slot. She will be in the slot when she needs to be - ie at the start of a move, and when she goes past the man. Other than that, her path could be anywhere bounded by a figure-8.

Although slotted dancing can take up less space at the sides, it frequently takes up *more* space down the length of the slot. And especially when the man decides not to move, the whole length of the slot is not occupied all the time. It will look like lots of free space to those dancing near you.

On those rare occasions where there is space, don't keep the lady just going from A to B and back again. Occasionally lengthen the slot, and go to C. Or take the scenic route, and deliberately lead the lady in a big circle for a change.

Banana Man
12th-July-2004, 07:18 PM
....Plus anyone who saw Jodie and Paul would have seen how good it can look.

:yeah: Jodie and Paul were at MJC, fab WCS, style and technique workshops, and to top it off a stunning cabaret.

IMHO learning or understanding a variety of styles gives you more scope, can make it more interesting for you and your partner, and keep you both safe on the dance floor - usually :wink:

Minnie M
12th-July-2004, 07:49 PM
Probably the best example anyone will see this year of slotted dancing will be at RebelYell this year. Jordan and Tatiana will be there this year. Plus anyone who saw Jodie and Paul would have seen how good it can look.

Can't wait

Have you lot been sleeping for the past couple of years :confused:

Paul does look good when dancing and he looks fab with both Jody and Sally BUT .............

Remember Robert & Deborah at RebelYell 2002 & 2003 (the 2002 cabaret which was in fact freestyle was REALLY amazing) and what about Lily and David B - hasn't anyone seen them freestyling - IMO they are by far the best West Coast Swing couple we have in this country :worthy:

Paul might be more visual than David (he has more hip movements) however David is a much better lead, and Lily's style and grace puts Jody in the novice corner AND we would not have West Coast Swing over here if it wasn't for David & Lily they have kept it alive and worked very hard at keeping it there - please please give them the credit they truly deserve :angry:

Gordon J Pownall
13th-July-2004, 12:19 AM
Have you lot been sleeping for the past couple of years :confused:

AND we would not have West Coast Swing over here if it wasn't for David & Lily they have kept it alive and worked very hard at keeping it there - please please give them the credit they truly deserve :angry:

Although I don't do west coast (more of an east coast myself (cos it's easier)), I do know that by reputation alone, David and Lilly have brought WCS alive in the UK and kept it alive.......(IMHO).... :worthy:

Banana Man
13th-July-2004, 01:36 PM
Have you lot been sleeping for the past couple of years :confused:

..... we would not have West Coast Swing over here if it wasn't for David & Lily they have kept it alive and worked very hard at keeping it there - please please give them the credit they truly deserve :angry:Not sleeping, just not doing MJ for that long, so not aware of who's done what, forgive the ignorance. Knew a bit about David and Lily's background in Ballroom/Latin, thought their Classes at Fulham were fantastic :worthy: , always try to get a dance with Lily at Jive Bar :yum: :innocent:

Minnie M
13th-July-2004, 02:14 PM
:blush: apologies to all who HAVE mentioned Robert & Deborah and have stated how great they are - I just saw red that nobody mentioned our own 'home grown' D & L as since MJC all I have heard is Paul & Jody, Paul & Jody again and again - not that they aren't good, but credit were credits due. :really:

However, I did fly off the handle without reading the other posts properly and a couple of you have mentioned the 'yanks' - my personal favourites are Kyle & Sarah. I am very honoured to say I have danced with both Jordon & Kyle, both amazing dancers and great leads, however Kyle made me feel special and therefore I danced better with him AND I just liked K & S style more (a bit funcky)

bigdjiver
13th-July-2004, 03:01 PM
my personal favourites are Kyle & Sarah. I am very honoured to say I have danced with both Jordon & Kyle, both amazing dancers and great leads, however Kyle made me feel special and therefore I danced better with him AND I just liked K & S style more (a bit funcky) I have seen too little of KYle, but what I have is very inspirational to me. Being of lumbering brute proportions, I am curious. Kyle looks tall with Sarah. How tall is he?

DavidB
13th-July-2004, 03:11 PM
Kyle looks tall with Sarah. How tall is he?I'd guess just over 6'. It is just that Sarah is snack-sized.

bigdjiver
13th-July-2004, 09:37 PM
I'd guess just over 6'. It is just that Sarah is snack-sized. Thanks. That was my guess. Tall enough to give me no excuse. :tears:

Gordon J Pownall
14th-July-2004, 12:22 AM
Thanks. That was my guess. Tall enough to give me no excuse. :tears:

...too tall for CerocMetro though...not a proper size... :wink:

Andy McGregor
14th-July-2004, 02:32 AM
...too tall for CerocMetro though...not a proper size... :wink:

:yeah:

Gordon J Pownall
14th-July-2004, 09:18 AM
:yeah:

It is nice to feel as though you belong......just not sure where although I've had a few interesting suggestions..... :sick:

Sheepman
14th-July-2004, 11:03 AM
Aaargh!

I had the Weston-Super-Mare Winter Gardens Ballroom described to me in detail last night. It sounds great, but the shape is - oval.

Maybe it won't be so bad, I had planned to go a bit wild after all, but if you see me looking disorientated on Saturday, it'll be because I can't find my slot!

greg

Gadget
14th-July-2004, 11:45 AM
:D Marc taught it in one of the strangest shaped dance-halls you will find {northern hotel in Aberdeen} ... hard to describe, but the building is on point of a Y shaped junction with the dance hall at the tip. The stage is almost in a small cave, the ceiling bows in to an oval with the sky and birds painted on it (it's not a particularly high ceiling), there are a few 'alcoves' with 60's ladys painted in them... it's all curves. :waycool:

Geordieed
14th-July-2004, 01:58 PM
[QUOTE=Minnie M]
Remember Robert & Deborah at RebelYell 2002 & 2003 (the 2002 cabaret which was in fact freestyle was REALLY amazing) and what about Lily and David B - hasn't anyone seen them freestyling - IMO they are by far the best West Coast Swing couple we have in this country :worthy:

QUOTE]

I have not been able to keep up with the forum everyday but would like to reply to this comment. David and Lily have shown many times that there dancing performance or otherwise is on such a high plain. David is top of my list for leads and is a constant source of inspiration when I remind myself why I look for new ways to improve my lead. Although I can't lead Lily that well when we dance I find again dancing with Lily an inspiration as well as a huge amount of fun. I have seen them dance together in a few different disciplines and can't recall seeing them dance much WCS. My enthusiasm stems from WCS freestyle is based on a few people that I have seen. It is also thanks to David and Lily that I began to learn WCS. Without them I could not have realised a dream.

Sparkles
14th-July-2004, 02:17 PM
Aaargh!

I had the Weston-Super-Mare Winter Gardens Ballroom described to me in detail last night. It sounds great, but the shape is - oval.

Maybe it won't be so bad, I had planned to go a bit wild after all, but if you see me looking disorientated on Saturday, it'll be because I can't find my slot!

greg

You should try the Octagon in Sheffield!
Especially when you're ballroom dancing, which relies on knowing where your corners are, because there are just too many and if you're not careful you can end up going around the floor the wrong way! :eek:

Lory
14th-July-2004, 02:34 PM
David is top of my list for leads and is a constant source of inspiration when I remind myself why I look for new ways to improve my lead.
Holly and I were wondering what that NEW move was called, that David did on Lily last night? :confused: Basically he held her up like a rag doll and shook her about......a lot! :worthy: :D

Very very funny! :clap: :rofl:

Sheepman
14th-July-2004, 03:06 PM
he held her up like a rag doll and shook her about......a lot!

Very very funny! Yes but was it slotted?

Maybe that should be "and shook her about......a slot!"

Greg

Lory
14th-July-2004, 04:07 PM
Yes but was it slotted?



GregI suppose it could very loosely fit into the slotted criteria :rolleyes: :whistle: ..

David stood on the spot and held Lily under her armpits and swung her legs from side to side in an enthusiastic pendulum motion! :rofl:

Gordon J Pownall
14th-July-2004, 04:27 PM
I suppose it could very loosely fit into the slotted criteria :rolleyes: :whistle: ..

David stood on the spot and held Lily under her armpits and swung her legs from side to side in an enthusiastic pendulum motion! :rofl:

That'll be the pendulum then...

LilyB
15th-July-2004, 01:34 AM
Holly and I were wondering what that NEW move was called, that David did on Lily last night? :confused: Basically he held her up like a rag doll and shook her about......a lot! :worthy: :D


That's called the "Lily's-too-tired-so-David-will-do-all-the-hard-work" move. Now, if only I could get him to do the same at home .... :whistle:

LilyB

under par
15th-July-2004, 09:42 AM
That's called the "Lily's-too-tired-so-David-will-do-all-the-hard-work" move. Now, if only I could get him to do the same at home .... :whistle:

LilyB


:rofl: :rofl:

dannyboy
2nd-August-2004, 04:12 PM
Numbers of bodies per square inch aside, I prefer the 'look' of slotted styles, eg. like West Coast Swing. Some of the 'top' ceroc dancers have a more slotted style in recent years.

Yogi_Bear
16th-August-2004, 09:26 PM
.....we would not have West Coast Swing over here if it wasn't for David & Lily they have kept it alive and worked very hard at keeping it there - please please give them the credit they truly deserve :angry:

:yeah:

MartinHarper
14th-April-2005, 06:13 PM
This thread seems relevant to recent rantage (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5130)

To my mind, there are several concepts to think about:

1) Dancing in a static rectangular space - IE, what happens during regular MJ classes, though it rarely gets explicitly taught. Depending on who you ask, this is either optional or compulsorary.

2) The "woman's line of dance" (LOD) - IE, keeping the woman moving along an invisible line, while the man gets out of her way. This doesn't happen in regular MJ classes, because if I get out of my partner's way by moving to my left, I normally get in the way of the couple to my left, because the male of that couple has stood still and lead his partner to go round him.

3) As above, with female help. IE, if the woman is lead to move forward but very slightly off her LOD, she'll assume that the slight offset is a mislead or some other artifact, and stay on her LOD. I've never seen this taught in MJ, but I understand that it's a concept in some slotted dances.

There are MJ moves taught in which the guy stands still and his partner walks around him. That's clearly leading the girl way off her line of dance. If MJ is a slotted dance, are these moves "wrong"?

David Bailey
14th-April-2005, 08:42 PM
1) Dancing in a static rectangular space - IE, what happens during regular MJ classes, though it rarely gets explicitly taught. Depending on who you ask, this is either optional or compulsorary.

I'd vote for optional myself.



There are MJ moves taught in which the guy stands still and his partner walks around him. That's clearly leading the girl way off her line of dance. If MJ is a slotted dance, are these moves "wrong"?
I think, in a slot context, these are only "wrong" if you end up "off-slot" :) - i.e. not back in the position you started.

I personally am firmly in the circular camp - this has developed for me over the past few years, and has been influenced by the style of salsa I learned. Doesn't mean it's the best way, but that works for me.

Having said that, some moves just feel wrong if you try to force the follower back to exactly the same position, I think they almost require a bit of travelling. Don't ask me for examples, but I know there are some...

DavidB
15th-April-2005, 01:31 PM
I have been asked to explain some comments I made regarding circular vs slotted dancing. I've put it in this thread so that I don't annoy Sparkles

Most partner dances rotate, and they rotate in a clockwise direction. In a closed hold this is due to the way you stand - ie with your partner slightly offset to your right. It just makes it easier to turn clockwise. There is nothing to stop you turning anticlockwise, but it takes a bit more effort. When going from an open hold to a closed hold the rotation is exaggerated by momentum.

The vast majority of moves in any swing dance go to the man's right side, not his left. This again contributes to the clockwise rotation.

You also expect the lady to go to your right side even when you don't lead her there. In both a first move and a yoyo, you lead her hand to the left side of your body. But you want her to position her body on your right side. If she actually followed what you led, she would stand either astride your left foot, or even completely to your left.

To my mind virtually everything in swing dancing is making the dance rotate, so if there are no other influences, why fight it.

But there are other influences. Perhaps the main one is space. I usually dance at the edge of the floor so that I minimise accidental contact with other couples. So I can't dance in a complete circle, because all I have is a semi-circle.

Another is presentation. If you are presenting the dance to just one direction (eg the judges, a class, or an audience) then dancing in a slot is a good idea. But a word of warning - dancing in a slot looks boring to anyone standing on or close to the line of the slot.

You can explicitly teach a dance as a slotted dance eg WCS. Then it becomes part of the dance and you have to make a conscious effort to take it out of the slot.

I initially found the suggestion that MJ is slotted because it is taught that way a bit farcical, and then a bit worrying. I have never heard any teacher say in a class "Modern Jive is a Slotted Dance". Whereas I have heard that in every WCS class I've been to, or taught. If the teachers wanted to convey something that fundamental, I'm pretty sure they would say it, and not teach it by osmosis. I started to think how many other spurious 'rules' were being unintentionally passed down in classes. I've seen this before when teaching WCS and talking about 6 count and 8 count moves, and someone thought that you could only do 6 count moves to some tracks, and 8 count moves to others.

I teach modern jive with everyone in rows, or in a circle, just because it has always been done like that. There is no deeper meaning to it. I get everyone to start facing the same way because it makes it easier to learn. In freestyle you can face any direction you want.

You can dance MJ in a slot if you want. I would only advise it as 'best practice' for competitions, but that is virtually a different dance now. Personally I don't dance in a slot. Instead I rotate the dance about 180 degrees at a time when I need to. It might look the same, but the difference is exaggerating what is natural, rather than placing an unnatural restriction on the dance. It is just dancing in a circle, but opting not to use most of it.

I am a big believer in natural movement. I don't need a strong lead, because very little of what I do is leading. I just start the lady moving and keep hold of her hand while she does what comes naturally. (Unfortunately my brain then kicks in with that most dangerous thought - "I wonder what would happen If I did this...". That is when I have problems.) Constraining MJ into a slot is not worth the effort for the majority of dancers.

I also disagree that ladies who travel when doing a non-travelling return have bad technique. They are doing what comes naturally. The man is leading what comes naturally. My view is that a non-travelling return is in itself not natural.


I used to find the whole 'social dancing in a slot' debate rather funny. But it seems to have taken a disturbing turn when people claim that dancing in a slot is the only correct way to dance MJ. You can place me firmly in the 'MJ is circular' camp.


This has reminded me of why I stopped taking part in this forum in the first place. Too many people (including myself) were becoming so polarized in their views that meaningful debates seemed to be a thing of the past. I couldn't complain about people not listening to other views until I could do it myself. So I decided to stop posting and just listen to what other people said. I still have a long way to go. But before I return to my vow of silence:
- Congratulations Will & Kate. Hopefully you have a bit of money left over to buy Will a new shirt, and maybe an iron...
- Sparkles - hope you start enjoying dancing MJ again.
- Happy birthday to everyone I missed this year
- Good luck to everyone in the Ceroc Champs
- Merry Christmas

David

Geordieed
15th-April-2005, 02:35 PM
It seems like alot of people have taken the route of not posting comments on the forum. I see a long list of people when I open the site logging in to view threads that previously made contributions to the topics raised.

I for one frequently read what many people write and for the majority of the time leave the forum without making any contributions. I think in the long run the forum will get better and better. That will include many previous members coming back to add their views. As dancing with in general whether it be social or competition, I think the forum helps us to discover and understand ourselves more.

Without dancing the likes of Will and Kate may well not have met each other and look where they are now.

Chef
15th-April-2005, 02:36 PM
OK then that settles it for me. I take it all back and will start to dance in a circle. It will make life much easier for me and my partner to not have to concentrate to much on being precise about where we start and finish.

We will approach each other and rotate around each other a random number of degrees between 1 and 720 (I get really dizzy after that) and then I will send my partner out into who knows what. Once my partner is twirlling away from me there is little opportunity to yank her back if someone is in or has moved into the way.

Now we know that we are supposed to do this we can stop bothering with the apologies after collisions now that I know I have no need to avoid any others dance space. I always used to plan my moves so that my partner and I would start in a certain place, come together and either swap places or rotate so that when she exited she would return to either her starting position or mine. I didn't do this because I was practicing for competitions (which I never do) but because I thought I was being considerate to others by not having me or my partner crashing into them.

Now I know that it is OK I can armour my partners back and legs and send her anywhere I like.

This is going to be so much easier that all that trying to be precise stuff.

It really used to tick me off when my partner and I would take our step back at the beginning of a move only to find someone elses partner spinning into the space between us while clouting us with their arms and legs.

Must admit. There is a savage streak in me that is quite looking forward to the idea of getting my own back after all these years of people spinning across the dance floor into me. I used to think that they were just inept and incapable but now I know I just read the situation wrong. When they spin their partner into me that is just fair game.

No more Mr nice guy. At least I now know that I am allowed to fight back.

El Salsero Gringo
15th-April-2005, 02:41 PM
{snip}Why do you feel the need to write like such a sarcastic stroppy git?

Chef
15th-April-2005, 02:48 PM
Why do you feel the need to write like such a sarcastic stroppy git?

Because I have read a lot of your posts. :whistle:

Sorry about that. It was just too big a target not to shoot at. Bloody hell. I think I am turning into Ceroc Jock with these stroppy and cutting one liners.

HELP!

El Salsero Gringo
15th-April-2005, 02:54 PM
Because I have read a lot of your posts. :whistle:

Sorry about that. It was just too big a target not to shoot at. Bloody hell. I think I am turning into Ceroc Jock with these stroppy and cutting one liners.

HELP!No problem. At least that one was funny. (You let yourself down a bit with the smiley though.)

ChrisA
15th-April-2005, 03:15 PM
I also disagree that ladies who travel when doing a non-travelling return have bad technique. They are doing what comes naturally. The man is leading what comes naturally. My view is that a non-travelling return is in itself not natural.

Do you not think that a lot of dancing is learning to do something that doesn't come naturally, but still ends up feeling nice once learned?

I like the fact that there is a distinction between a return and a travelling return, providing each can be led and followed, since it adds variety.

Interesting how positions change over time isn't it... I refer the honourable gentleman to this (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7833&postcount=9) :)

(It's a strength, not a reason for criticism, of course, to be able to change your position over time :flower: )

I realise that's a space argument rather than anything else, but if people can't dance in a slot, they don't have the option when space needs to be conserved.

Gadget
15th-April-2005, 04:20 PM
~big "yea-that" snip~
I am a big believer in natural movement. I don't need a strong lead, because very little of what I do is leading. I just start the lady moving and keep hold of her hand while she does what comes naturally. (Unfortunately my brain then kicks in with that most dangerous thought - "I wonder what would happen If I did this...". That is when I have problems.) Constraining MJ into a slot is not worth the effort for the majority of dancers.
:yeah::D :worthy:

Chef: DavidB's "I don't dance in a slot" is not quite accurate - as he said; visually, it looks almost identical to dancing in a slot - he just rotates it as needed and as space dictates. :rolleyes: From my view of David and his dancing, that equates to him saying "I don't dance in a strict slot" - and I think his "loose" is equivelent to my "strict" in terms of style and technique; therefore what I would consider "strict slot dancing" would look very much like his "I don't dance in a slot" dancing. {IMHO :wink:}

taken from the first post of Improving my dancing (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3116) in June 04:

~...Following on from Marc's workshops and dancing in a cross: At the time, I interpreted this as leading the lady to follow the cross; and it definitely helped me in comprehending that I can lead the lady relative to her position on the floor rather than just leading her relative to me. (subtle, but a distinct revelation to me!)
Now I'm trying to turn this into my following the cross. A lot of my moves tend to be circular - mainly because that's the direction the moves flow: Sort of like satellites orbiting some phantom point between you. Oval paths. Turning this into horizontal and lateral movement requires a more controlled lead...~
I now dance in a slot that rotates 90º every so often and to suit the moves/my partner. I think it looks a lot more controled and less 'wild' - it certainly feels it. This allows the control of a slot, but flows with the 'natural' rotation of the dance.



This has reminded me of why I stopped taking part in this forum in the first place. Too many people (including myself) were becoming so polarized in their views that meaningful debates seemed to be a thing of the past.There was meaningful debate? cool. must have been before I joined. :whistle:

David Bailey
15th-April-2005, 04:51 PM
I realise that's a space argument rather than anything else, but if people can't dance in a slot, they don't have the option when space needs to be conserved.
I'm not totally convinced* that slot dancing is always more space-efficient than circular dancing - you've still got the same number of people, same number of arms and legs... I guess it depends on how fast you rotate the circle, as to how much space you take up. In addition, I think a more flexible approach to "line" space enables you to move around more freely to avoid bashing other dancers - whereas slot dancing is almost by definition based around ownership of a certain line. So would 100 good circle dancers, moving freely around each other, take up more space than 100 good slot dancers, owning areas of floor?

* However, I've just been firmly assured I don't actually dance in a circle, so there's a good chance I don't know what I'm talking about...

Gadget
16th-April-2005, 11:33 PM
Another thread that wen t over this same ground: Hipsters feat. Robert Cordoba (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4310) (I've not re-read all of it; I was looking for somthing else)

Barry Shnikov
17th-May-2005, 10:06 AM
I learned a lot of my MJ in a small, crowded venue, where slotted dancing was the norm. We had a truly excellent, Latin-influenced teacher (Michaela Walker :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: )

OK, I'll bite. Where was this small, crowded venue, and when?

Mick and Phil were my first ever teachers, and I have to say that they are still amongst the best teachers I've ever seen. When I moved to London, I would babble regularly about how good they were, to everyone's disgust. I was later vindicated when a friend who moved to Hertfordshire came back to dance in London and said that Mick had been the best teacher she'd had.

(I first learnt to dance in the mighty halls of the Sports and Social Club down Mill Lane...)

bigdjiver
17th-May-2005, 10:55 AM
OK, I'll bite. Where was this small, crowded venue, and when?

Mick and Phil were my first ever teachers, and I have to say that they are still amongst the best teachers I've ever seen... :yeah:

We are very fortunate in Ceroc Central with the high standard of teachers that we have. The bad news is that Michaella will not be teaching at the Corn Exchange freestyle this Friday :sad: The good news is that Emma will be taking the class instead. :clap:

I cannot say that I have been taught to dance in a slot, it is more leading by example. My perception is that it is the norm around Ceroc Central, with some teacher emphasising it more than others.

MartinHarper
19th-July-2005, 12:35 AM
So, this week I was taught a move (twice! woo!) that I couldn't get to work slotted. It was this "First Move Walkaround" - First Move to "2", then both walk forwards for a bit, then continue as normal First Move.
It's a fine move, but for it to work smoothly, the "step in", the walking, and the "twist out" have to all be at the same speed, which means that if I walk round for two beats, I could be aligned in any random direction. Ok, in class I can bodge it, but that feels terrible, so I'd prefer to avoid that in freestyle.

Are some moves implausible in a purist slotted dance? Or can they be adapted to be both smooth and slotted?

Gadget
19th-July-2005, 11:44 AM
So, this week I was taught a move (twice! woo!) that I couldn't get to work slotted. It was this "First Move Walkaround" - First Move to "2", then both walk forwards for a bit, then continue as normal First Move.
It's a fine move, but for it to work smoothly, the "step in", the walking, and the "twist out" have to all be at the same speed, which means that if I walk round for two beats, I could be aligned in any random direction. Ok, in class I can bodge it, but that feels terrible, so I'd prefer to avoid that in freestyle.

Are some moves implausible in a purist slotted dance? Or can they be adapted to be both smooth and slotted?
Take more than two steps?
Make the roatation tighter so that it's timeing is the same, but the distance traveled is greater (eg. lady walks backwards as you walk forwards)?
Take your time and rotate 180º instead of a full 360º?
Use the exit of the move to put the lady back into the slot?
Rotate the slot in 90º incraments? {I dance in a "cross" rather than a "slot", so this is the option I use - as long as any turn/spin/walk/rotation ends on one of these arms, then it's working for me.}

How did you "bodge" it?

JoC
19th-July-2005, 12:59 PM
Is this slotting a bit of a guy (or lead) thing?

Have noticed it does seem to have a slight space advantage and it's great if all you've got is a narrow strip on the edge of the dance floor, though it didn't help one couple I saw dancing in a 'textbook' slot recently who still got whacked...

(p.s. I'm happy to try whichever the lead fancies for the time being...) :)

ducasi
19th-July-2005, 01:40 PM
Is this slotting a bit of a guy (or lead) thing? No. It's a lead and follower thing.

I think I will usually try to dance in a slot, but when my partner wants to wander round in a circle, there's not much I can do about it. :tears: Perhaps though there's a weakness in my lead which can cause some followers to travel when none was intended. :sad:

I'm sure this was discussed before though... Maybe even on this thread... :nice:

David Bailey
19th-July-2005, 01:40 PM
Are some moves implausible in a purist slotted dance? Or can they be adapted to be both smooth and slotted?
Some moves are clearly better done non-slotted; you can make almost any move work in a slot, and classes are taught slotted for space reasons, but some just naturally move partners around, and I think it's better to go with the flow.

The trick is not to be lazy and whirl around like MJ dervishes of course...

JoC
19th-July-2005, 04:53 PM
No. It's a lead and follower thing.
I just got a vague impression skimming through the thread that the few ladies who'd posted favoured a bit of variety, whereas the chaps had somewhat stronger views.

It may not always work out as discussed at length in previous posts, but it's the lead who ultimately chooses circular or slot. The follower then just follows well or badly...I would have thought...no?

ducasi
19th-July-2005, 05:12 PM
... It may not always work out as discussed at length in previous posts, but it's the lead who ultimately chooses circular or slot. The follower then just follows well or badly...I would have thought...no? I guess... But it might be the lead who is leading well or badly too.

I never deliberately choose to go round in circles (it makes me dizzy :sick:) but often I have no alternative. :blush: As this happens with some of the (in my perception) better dancers I dance with, I feel it may be unfair to blame them.

It's always the lead's fault! :sad:

(I can see foresee some interesting dances tonight. :whistle:)

JoC
19th-July-2005, 05:19 PM
(I can see foresee some interesting dances tonight. :whistle:)
So shall we say slotted dancing only for this evening and see what happens? I'll make a special effort to avoid orbitting.

ads
20th-July-2005, 08:06 AM
So do you think ladies that know how to dance in a slot are better follows (I do) and if so why?

JoC
20th-July-2005, 12:41 PM
So do you think ladies that know how to dance in a slot are better follows (I do) and if so why?
For me I think an awareness of the existence of particular dance patterns (like slotted) might help one follow if that's what's being led.

I doubt it helps to have a follower thinking too much about these things though does it? Though a bit of thinking might help a follower identify if they're forcing unwanted circles on someone who's trying their best to lead a slot or vice versa.

Have concluded I'm not fussed, I just want to follow as well as possible, slots, circles, squares, triangles, pyramids, cones bring it on.

In answer to the above question, I don't really know because I follow, but I would guess that the best followers, follow what's being led, to state the obvious. So perhaps technically a follower who is sensitive to such finer points as dance pattern in a lead, might have the edge over someone who doesn't have this sensitivity. Not sure if that technical edge will necessarily mean a more enjoyable dance though owing to all the other joy factors in a dance. :D

Mr Cool
20th-July-2005, 08:05 PM
I doubt it helps to have a follower thinking too much about these things though does it? Though a bit of thinking might help a follower identify if they're forcing unwanted circles on someone who's trying their best to lead a slot or vice versa.

Have concluded I'm not fussed, I just want to follow as well as possible, slots, circles, squares, triangles, pyramids, cones bring it on.

In answer to the above question, I don't really know because I follow, but I would guess that the best followers, follow what's being led, to state the obvious. So perhaps technically a follower who is sensitive to such finer points as dance pattern in a lead, might have the edge over someone who doesn't have this sensitivity. Not sure if that technical edge will necessarily mean a more enjoyable dance though owing to all the other joy factors in a dance. :D[/QUOTE]

I agree it is the the lead should dictate the pattern I for one enjoy leading a lady in a slot. ( by the way other than people doing W/Cs I see very few MJ dancers dancing this way so many men spend there time running around there partners isnt that awful) Most ladies with rythm have no problem following a slot lead. I also enjoy other dance patterns, I find it rewarding to dance in and out of slots for me the fun of MJ is that you can lead almost anything and many ladies can follow any confident lead. :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

MartinHarper
21st-July-2005, 12:23 AM
So many men spend their time running around their partners - isn't that awful?

What makes it awful?

Lou
21st-July-2005, 11:09 AM
For me I think an awareness of the existence of particular dance patterns (like slotted) might help one follow if that's what's being led.

I doubt it helps to have a follower thinking too much about these things though does it? Though a bit of thinking might help a follower identify if they're forcing unwanted circles on someone who's trying their best to lead a slot or vice versa.
:yeah: Before the whole slotted concept was raised originally, it had never even occurred to me. When dancing with an average lead, I do tend to rotate. :whistle: But that's down to the style of my teachers, who I've also noticed rotate a fair bit when freestyling.

I can only think of one local chap who obviously leads a slotted dance - Steve Wannacott of Kingswood LeRoc. :) So it's very easy to stay in a slot with him, and it feels very good. However, I can't say I've noticed many other people trying to deliberately lead a slot.

So, does it actually matter, if, as a follower, I start to travel more? And is it wrong, as a follower, to add it?

Simon
21st-July-2005, 12:03 PM
I can only think of one local chap who obviously leads a slotted dance - Steve Wannacott of Kingswood LeRoc. :) So it's very easy to stay in a slot with him, and it feels very good. However, I can't say I've noticed many other people trying to deliberately lead a slot.

Grab me next time and I'll send you up and down a slot to your heart's content! :wink:

Lou
21st-July-2005, 12:14 PM
Grab me next time and I'll send you up and down a slot to your heart's content! :wink:
I'd love to, Simon - but I never get a look in with the queue of ladies you already have lining up for you! :D

ElaineB
14th-August-2005, 07:35 PM
:yeah: Before the whole slotted concept was raised originally, it had never even occurred to me. When dancing with an average lead, I do tend to rotate. :whistle: But that's down to the style of my teachers, who I've also noticed rotate a fair bit when freestyling.

I can only think of one local chap who obviously leads a slotted dance - Steve Wannacott of Kingswood LeRoc. :) So it's very easy to stay in a slot with him, and it feels very good. However, I can't say I've noticed many other people trying to deliberately lead a slot.

So, does it actually matter, if, as a follower, I start to travel more? And is it wrong, as a follower, to add it?

Lou, Lou - my Simon dances slotted as well!


Elaine

marty_baby
1st-September-2005, 12:36 PM
Slotted dancing huh?

Thats WCS territory isn't it! :)

hhhmmm.... thats on tough cookie to crack...

I dunno how may times I stubbed poor Beck_strawberry_princesses's toe doing it!

Lou, you going Gloucs Sat? Maybe we can give it a whirl then if you like.... (I'll try not to stub our toe as well! :D )

Martin
:hug:

Yogi_Bear
1st-September-2005, 01:52 PM
Give me slotted as a general rule. Considering how mj classes are taught with punters dancing in a slot, where does the urge come from to head off in seemingly random directions when not in a class? It's disconcerting to try to lead your partner in a slot only to have to find she's finished somewhere entirely different, and you have to get her back....but I guess it's my leading that needs improvement, too :whistle:

David Bailey
1st-September-2005, 03:48 PM
Give me slotted as a general rule. Considering how mj classes are taught with punters dancing in a slot, where does the urge come from to head off in seemingly random directions when not in a class?
By it's very nature, some moves (such as a travelling return) will feel better if there's a bit of flexibility, at least they do for me. So a lot of returns / manspins will probably naturally push you into a rotating (non-slotted) style.

On the other hand, the lovely cross-body leads by their nature do seem more slotted, so that type of Latin Jive style may very well be better suited for slots.

On the third hand, anyone inflexible enough to want to stick to one single style in all circumstances probably needs to loosen up a little. If there's space, I love to run around the floor with my partner in all manner of different directions as the mood takes me...

Yogi_Bear
1st-September-2005, 03:56 PM
Trevelling returns - definitely slotted - how else could they work?
Cross-body leads - :clap:
travelling around the floor - yes, but only in a slot! :D
yb

David Bailey
1st-September-2005, 04:18 PM
Trevelling returns - definitely slotted - how else could they work?
Depends how far you travel. If you do a travelling return into a mambo, say, fair enough. But a travelling return of just a few feet, that's more awkward to fit into a strict slot; I think it feels a bit unnatural.

Obviously classes are taught slotted, or everyone would be crashing into each other all the time, facing different directions etc. But that doesn't mean that some moves are strictly slotted "by nature".

Yogi_Bear
1st-September-2005, 04:24 PM
Depends how far you travel. If you do a travelling return into a mambo, say, fair enough. But a travelling return of just a few feet, that's more awkward to fit into a strict slot; I think it feels a bit unnatural.

Obviously classes are taught slotted, or everyone would be crashing into each other all the time, facing different directions etc. But that doesn't mean that some moves are strictly slotted "by nature".

Well, surely a travelling return has to be slotted otherwise it ceases to be so described... and the follower has no idea where to end up? If it's only a few feet of travel then ,again it can't be a 'travelling' return.

My point was that if people learn in a slot then why exactly do they abandon slots on the dance floor, at the risk of collisions?

David Bailey
1st-September-2005, 04:30 PM
Well, surely a travelling return has to be slotted otherwise it ceases to be so described... and the follower has no idea where to end up? If it's only a few feet of travel then ,again it can't be a 'travelling' return.
OK, maybe a "travelling-return-lite" then :)
Don't ask me, I just make it up as I go most of the time...


My point was that if people learn in a slot then why exactly do they abandon slots on the dance floor, at the risk of collisions?
It's taught in a slot for convenience; then you go onto the dance floor and find that, for example, a return (non-travelling!) can feel more natural if it's not slotted. So people dance what feels better, rather than exactly what they're taught. And that's a Good Thing.

Yogi_Bear
1st-September-2005, 04:34 PM
OK, maybe a "travelling-return-lite" then :)
Don't ask me, I just make it up as I go most of the time...


It's taught in a slot for convenience; then you go onto the dance floor and find that, for example, a return (non-travelling!) can feel more natural if it's not slotted. So people dance what feels better, rather than exactly what they're taught. And that's a Good Thing.
I would agree with the last sentiment, at least as it applies to modern jive :) But other than redirecting a move to avoid a collision, the advantages of a slot are that both people know where to go, at least most of the time :whistle:

jockey
2nd-September-2005, 01:00 AM
There is no category which states: I tend to dance in a slot because I like it and I tend to initiate it. (Which I would have ticked)
In your intoduction Gregg I fully endorse the view that if there is circularity it is better if it is 180 or 360 degrees and followers who choose the Circular route are strangely unaware of the significance of Hammersmith and the Dartford Tunnel. When I am leading I am constantly aware of "the compass" and where each move should end up and if the follower ends up "anyoldplace" we are goingto be at different angles to each other at significant moments.I always thought that circular jive is constructed (footwork etc) to "arrive back" ..(?) e.g., take your typical jive class - the men all end up facing the same way after a move, either the way they were facing at the beginning or the opposite. Thats all multiples of 180 degrees.

David Bailey
2nd-September-2005, 08:38 AM
... if the follower ends up "anyoldplace" we are goingto be at different angles to each other at significant moments.
:confused: Surely as long as you end up facing your partner, that's the main thing - we're not doing ballroom dancing here.


take your typical jive class - the men all end up facing the same way after a move, either the way they were facing at the beginning or the opposite. Thats all multiples of 180 degrees.
Sure - but (I believe) that's because it's easier to teach that way in a row formation, not because those moves are naturally slotted.

A few years ago, I used to be very very circular in MJ, basically whizzing around my partner at high speed. This I think was influenced by the (Cuban) salsa I was learning at the time. I'm now dancing some more slotted movements - this I think is more influenced by the (cross-body) salsa I'm struggling with now.

Some moves are slotted, some are circular, some are neither. Surely it's better to mix and match than to overspecialise?

Lou
2nd-September-2005, 09:21 AM
Lou, you going Gloucs Sat? Maybe we can give it a whirl then if you like.... (I'll try not to stub our toe as well! :D )
What? Go to a venue twice in one week?! :eek: But people in Churchdown have already seen my new shoes! ;)

Sorry - am not doing Glos this time. It's been a hectic week, what with the work stuff, so that'll be my night off.

BTW... have had some lovely practice at slotting with Simon B. :drool: And some WCS practice, too. So thanks, mate. :clap: And I'm afraid I get too silly with your Simon, Elaine, to even think about where he's leading me. And I wouldn't change that for the world! :na:

Lynn
2nd-September-2005, 09:59 AM
I will go where I am led. But I like being led in a slot. :grin:

I'm not sure why though, have to think about that. I haven't done any WCS (though would like to learn some). I think it may be because if I sort of know where I am going (travelling up and down the slot) then I can play more with the music and styling? I seem to get more opportunity for MI when led in a slot, but maybe that's to with the type of lead who dances in a slot?


What? Go to a venue twice in one week?! :eek: But people in Churchdown have already seen my new shoes! ;) You have new shoes? :clap:

Lou
2nd-September-2005, 04:03 PM
You have new shoes? :clap:
Yup. My old Mock Crocs are showing true signs of wear and tear :tears: , and I needed cheering up after finding out about the office closure (I know - I wanted to leave, but I'd rather it was my choice). So, I ordered some new shoes from Heavenly. Same style as the Mocks - lots of straps, but in shiny red and black patent leather.

Lynn
3rd-September-2005, 12:54 PM
So, I ordered some new shoes from Heavenly. Same style as the Mocks - lots of straps, but in shiny red and black patent leather. Red and black - sound fab! You clearly have the 'lots of good reasons why I need new dance shoes' talent. (Me too!) Its a great skill! :clap:

David Bailey
3rd-September-2005, 09:00 PM
Red and black - sound fab! You clearly have the 'lots of good reasons why I need new dance shoes' talent. (Me too!) Its a great skill! :clap:
OK, I hereby propose a CerocScotland equivalent of Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law), which I shall modestly call David's Law:
"As an online discussion on the cerocscotland forum grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving shoes approaches 1 (i.e. certainty)."

Dorothy
16th-September-2005, 04:15 PM
To get back on topic, I didn't that cealise ceroc was a slotted dance.
I do other dance styles that are, ceroc is rarely linear (in my experience)

JoC
16th-September-2005, 04:32 PM
Having spent a dance here and there over the last couple of months really concentrating on following exactly where I'm led, and making sure I don't travel while spinning (I'm not saying I've done these perfectly by any stretch, and I've not been obsessing about this during every dance or anything) but I've noticed that as well as orbitting ladies (mentioned way back in this thread), you also get orbitting men.

Not really making any grand comment about it, just saying.

Dreadful Scathe
16th-September-2005, 04:32 PM
To get back on topic, I didn't that cealise ceroc was a slotted dance.
I do other dance styles that are, ceroc is rarely linear (in my experience)
It isnt, but it can be. Just as it can have elements and moves from other styles.

Yogi_Bear
20th-September-2005, 04:53 PM
To get back on topic, I didn't that cealise ceroc was a slotted dance.
I do other dance styles that are, ceroc is rarely linear (in my experience)
Well, as been said before, it's taught as a slotted dance (lines of couples) but for some reason that doesn't often translate onto the dance floor. Not that I'm suggesting everybody freestyles dancing in lines. I would prefer my partner to stay slotted if I'm dancing that way, so that I know where she will be at the end of the step, count 6 or 8 or whatever. If she ends at a funny angle to me then I have to keep readjusting.

TA Guy
21st-September-2005, 01:51 PM
Ceroc isn't a slotted dance is it ?
I know it's taught like that, but my history professor told me that was just to ease management of 'lines'.

Even WCS is 'fairly' loose on the slotting, certainly if the clips from the WCS open champs is anything to go by.

I have a theory about this :)
I don't like rules in dance. There is dance, and there is sport. Sport has rules, dance has interpretation. Competitive ballroom is, to my small mind, a sport there are so many rules. If someone wants to interpret the music in an orbit, space permitting, good luck to em. Specially for that orbitting octopus :)

JoC
21st-September-2005, 02:01 PM
my history professor told me... Is your history professor your guru of all things? Quite like this idea actually, where'd I get one?


Specially for that orbitting octopus :)Liking the image :D

Geordieed
21st-September-2005, 02:03 PM
Ceroc isn't a slotted dance is it ?
I know it's taught like that, but my history professor told me that was just to ease management of 'lines'.

Even WCS is 'fairly' loose on the slotting, certainly if the clips from the WCS open champs is anything to go by.


Ceroc is NOT a slotted dance. Plus there is a clear difference to the routines that many people have seen on DVD, internet sites etc... to the fundamentals of the dance. The routines you see are performances and as such are different. Plus what is taught will have restrictions if being judged in WCS Jack N' Jill. You will actually get marked down for playing off and turning the slot.

MartinHarper
21st-September-2005, 03:40 PM
It's taught as a slotted dance (lines of couples)

If it was taught as a slotted dance, I would hear the word "slot" a few times in each lesson, as occurs when slotted dances are taught. There's a little more to slotted dancing than having the guys facing the bar at the end of each move.

El Salsero Gringo
21st-September-2005, 03:50 PM
There's a little more to slotted dancing than having the guys facing the bar at the end of each move.That's quite true. They need to learn how to order the drinks and pay for them too.

David Franklin
21st-September-2005, 04:02 PM
If it was taught as a slotted dance, I would hear the word "slot" a few times in each lesson, as occurs when slotted dances are taught. And I guess if it was taught as a dance using compression and leverage, you would hear the words "compression" and "leverage" a few times in each lesson as well. I actually think you have a point, but it's difficult to draw firm conclusions from the terminology used when the MJ philosophy tends to steer clear of such things.

Mr Cool
25th-September-2005, 11:47 AM
I don't like rules in dance. There is dance, and there is sport. Sport has rules, dance has interpretation.
:yeah:
I agree the strength and mass appeal of MJ is anything goes if you want to dance in a slot you can. you can dance in and out of the slot to suit, it is not to difficult but it is fun and adds interest and shape to the dance.
viva la difference :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

Little Monkey
25th-September-2005, 03:04 PM
Well, as been said before, it's taught as a slotted dance (lines of couples)

Ummmm, no.

Ceroc is not taught as a slotted dance. In the classes the couples are standing in lines out of practical reasons, but this does not make it a slotted dance. In a slotted dance, the man will always step out of the lady's line of travel, to allow her to travel from point A to point B. Then he closes the gap again, and is back on the 'train track' or his 'line'. The lady does not orbit around the man in any way, but always follows her line from A to B, and back.

This is absolutely not the case in ceroc! Anything goes, orbiting around the man, the couple travelling together in any direction that takes their fancy, etc. However, if people want to, they can dance ceroc 'slotted'. Or as blues. Or latin-inspired. In fact, when it comes to ceroc, there's very little you can't do. I would, however, be very impressed if I ever saw anyone who could dance ceroc whilst ironing. Or baking a cake..... Now, there's a challenge!!! :whistle:

LM

Yogi_Bear
25th-September-2005, 09:17 PM
Ummmm, no.

Ceroc is not taught as a slotted dance. In the classes the couples are standing in lines out of practical reasons, but this does not make it a slotted dance. In a slotted dance, the man will always step out of the lady's line of travel, to allow her to travel from point A to point B. Then he closes the gap again, and is back on the 'train track' or his 'line'. The lady does not orbit around the man in any way, but always follows her line from A to B, and back.

This is absolutely not the case in ceroc! Anything goes, orbiting around the man, the couple travelling together in any direction that takes their fancy, etc. However, if people want to, they can dance ceroc 'slotted'. Or as blues. Or latin-inspired. In fact, when it comes to ceroc, there's very little you can't do. I would, however, be very impressed if I ever saw anyone who could dance ceroc whilst ironing. Or baking a cake..... Now, there's a challenge!!! :whistle:

LM
You're right. I was using the term 'slotted' very loosely in order to make a point, which was that despite normally being taught to dance in lines for convenience, people tend to break out of line and dance in random directions as soon as they are given the opportunity. This often beans no relatrionship to the amount of space on the floor available to them.
Next Southport, I will have to dance MJ with you whilst ironing in order to impress you, I guess :D

DavidB
26th-September-2005, 12:33 AM
I would, however, be very impressed if I ever saw anyone who could dance ceroc whilst ironing. Or baking a cake.I have done MJ while eating a cake - does that count?

Also done it while ordering and paying for a round of drinks at the bar.

Little Monkey
26th-September-2005, 04:08 PM
You're right. I was using the term 'slotted' very loosely in order to make a point, which was that despite normally being taught to dance in lines for convenience, people tend to break out of line and dance in random directions as soon as they are given the opportunity. This often beans no relatrionship to the amount of space on the floor available to them.
Next Southport, I will have to dance MJ with you whilst ironing in order to impress you, I guess :D

Cool - I thought that was what you really meant. Oh, and I'm looking forward to our next dance! Will this be classified as 'extreme ironing' (see discussion on the Singletons Sofa, and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_Ironing


I have done MJ while eating a cake - does that count?

Also done it while ordering and paying for a round of drinks at the bar.

Were you actually eating it, eg holding the cake in your hand and taking bites whilst dancing (3 points)/ holding plate with cake, fork etc, and managing to eat whilst dancing (in which case I'm truly impressed, 10 points!!), or were you only chewing and dancing at the same time? The latter is rather un-impressive.

Second: Did you order the drinks, get your wallet out, pay, receive change and then carry the drinks to your table whilst dancing, or just telling the barman what you wanted to drink whilst dancing? For the first option you score 10 points, for the second just 1.

Pedantic Little Monkey

DavidB
26th-September-2005, 04:35 PM
Were you actually eating it, eg holding the cake in your hand and taking bites whilst dancing (3 points)/ holding plate with cake, fork etc, and managing to eat whilst dancing (in which case I'm truly impressed, 10 points!!), or were you only chewing and dancing at the same time? The latter is rather un-impressive.Sadly it was the latter. In my defence it is a very difficult task. The problem is not holding your cake and eating it - instead it is trying to dance whilst your partner is trying to pinch your cake.

Second: Did you order the drinks, get your wallet out, pay, receive change and then carry the drinks to your table whilst dancing, or just telling the barman what you wanted to drink whilst dancing? For the first option you score 10 points, for the second just 1.I'll claim 8 points - I did order, pay, receive change and pour out a bottle into a glass. But I didn't carry the drinks across the floor.

Little Monkey
26th-September-2005, 06:08 PM
Sadly it was the latter. In my defence it is a very difficult task. The problem is not holding your cake and eating it - instead it is trying to dance whilst your partner is trying to pinch your cake.
I'll claim 8 points - I did order, pay, receive change and pour out a bottle into a glass. But I didn't carry the drinks across the floor.

Ah yes, I see the problem. Have 3 points for the cake experiment, then.

You definitely deserve 8 points for the ordering-drinks-whilst-dancing one! Well done! Heck, I must rep you for this! :D

LM

under par
26th-September-2005, 06:25 PM
Ah yes, I see the problem. Have 3 points for the cake experiment, then.

You definitely deserve 8 points for the ordering-drinks-whilst-dancing one! Well done! Heck, I must rep you for this! :D

LM

i feel a new thread coming on Little Monkey... :flower:

Lynn
26th-September-2005, 07:59 PM
Second: Did you order the drinks, get your wallet out, pay, receive change and then carry the drinks to your table whilst dancing, or just telling the barman what you wanted to drink whilst dancing? Yeah, then he led the barman for a few moves holding the end of the £5 note he was paying with (without tearing...) :whistle:

Yogi_Bear
26th-September-2005, 08:05 PM
If it was taught as a slotted dance, I would hear the word "slot" a few times in each lesson, as occurs when slotted dances are taught. There's a little more to slotted dancing than having the guys facing the bar at the end of each move.
This is true. I have been very loose with terminology :o