Improving my dancing

[Gadget]

This may, or may not be of use/interest to folk; I'm committing it to hard copy because I find this is the best way for me to crystallise my thoughts. {and since I'm writing it anyway, I may as well post it :)}

I've been getting some advice on my dancing and how to improve it, but to understand where it's coming from here's some background:
My skill in dancing has reached a point that I can lead a lady anywhere I want to on the dance floor; into any arm twisty, knotwork move; fairly seamlessly recover from missed catches, miss-directed spins, unusual interpretations of my lead. I have been dancing exclusively for my partner - I will move to accommodate strong resistance or to flow the 'feel' of a move better.
Along the way I have picked up some (what I think{/thought} of as) "stylish" embellishments; knowing that it doesn't really matter what I do: I can lead the lady no matter where I face or where my body is. The net result is that it may 'feel' smooth and stylish :waycool:, but it looks wild, chaotic and flailing:sick:: I want to move in curves and smooth movement reminiscent of a constant trickle of water snaking down angled glass. What I actually look like is probably closer to a powerful garden hose left on - thrashing and cavorting with no control.:what::tears:

So to the tips:
- Posture
I've been told this from a couple of dancers that I respect, and I can see it in others; it's just so hard to pin-point exactly where and when I drop my shoulders, hunch my back, stick my bum out. Someone telling me "stop it" or hinting while dancing really helped {...please, no running criticism while dancing unless requested :rolleyes:... or deserved:innocent:}

- Styling
Minimalist. Almost every 'style' thing I do is big. Long leg sweeps, extended arm movements, exaggerated hand motions, throwing my torso about... flailing basically. I'm surprised that I've not been asked if I've taken my epilepsy medicine. Again, it's something I see in others and think to myself "smaller". But I need to reel myself in.
I think that most of this comes from trying to mirror or mimic ladies; they always seem more stylish than the men. Admittedly, there are only a few men who can successful pull off wiggles, shimmies, struts, rolls, flourishes and sweeps. And I'm not one of them.

- Moves
This I find hard: I've now broken moves down so much that a "basic" move requires a lot more concentration than just joining bits and pieces. Take for example the basket - I can lead the lady into this by stepping forward while turning her on the spot; I can step in while leading her in; or I can stay where I am and draw her towards me. I can take her to my side; I can have her 'half' infront {cuddle position?}; I can lead her infront of me. I can then drop a hand; convert to 'hip' hold; twist out; lead her back while stepping forward (as per octopus); keep her close and 'style' the front hand; change her position infront of me; ... and there are even more exits.
What I need to try and do is follow the 'structured' basic moves in order to control my own movement and remove(/reduce) some of the flamboyant "oversized" embellishments.

- Positioning
Following on from Marc's workshops and dancing in a cross: At the time, I interpreted this as leading the lady to follow the cross; and it definitely helped me in comprehending that I can lead the lady relative to her position on the floor rather than just leading her relative to me. (subtle, but a distinct revelation to me!)
Now I'm trying to turn this into my following the cross. A lot of my moves tend to be circular - mainly because that's the direction the moves flow: Sort of like satellites orbiting some phantom point between you. Oval paths. Turning this into horizontal and lateral movement requires a more controlled lead, however I find it accentuates the next point I am trying to cut-down on...

- Looking
I'm sure there's a better word for it, but it's the position of your torso in relation to the lady and where you are looking. It was suggested that it's too much fencing background, but a lot of my moves start/end (or at least have changes in direction) where I am looking at my partner across my shoulder. Since I am looking at my partner, it's not as "distant" as it cold be; but I could do with following some of David & Lilly's "flashlighting" advice they taught... I just need to stop being so lazy and actually face my partner (or lead her more, so that she ends up infront of me.)


I'm sure that after working on these for a few years {:rolleyes:} my dancing will improve; leaner and a more uniform background of dancing so that a few well placed dramatisims have more impact.

The only concern I have is that (I would like to think that) I am a fairly gentle and responsive lead; and a few (most) of these tips involve taking more control of the dance/my partner than I currently do:- Can I retain that gentle guidance without dominating too much?

[Emma]

Wow Gadget, this is such a brave post. Respect! :nice: :hug:

[Rachel]

Excellent post, Gadget. I just wish I could be so self-aware of what I'm doing when I'm dancing. Most of the time, I have absolutely no idea if what I'm doing looks ok, or ridiculously crap!

BTW loved what you said about leading the lady relative to [i]her position on the floor.... It just feels sooo much better than continually dancing round and round in circles. David and Lily give excellent tips on this. I do know that one of my worst faults is that I'm always looking to step into the guy's right-hand side, rather than hanging back, which just encourages 'circle' dancing.

Anyway - enjoyed your post, and have always loved the times we've danced together!
Rachel

[Gadget]

Brave... na. un-interesting possibly.

It's not so much self-awareness, as being told "that: don't do it". I would definitely recommend one-on-one teaching, (as long as your ego can stand it... I've got enough that a few dents won't hurt).

I knew that my internal image was a long step away from what was shown; my wife and I were at the Jive Aces one of the times they played in Aberdeen, and she commented that it looked like the ladies didn't seem to be going where I wanted them, unlike another dancer. I knew that the ladies were going exactly where I wanted them {well, exactly where I led them - which can be two separate things :rolleyes:}. So it must be my style, or lack thereof, that gave the chaotic appearance.

Thinking things through on the drive home last night (and into work this morning) I was trying to sort out all the information given in an intense few songs of tuition. It may be that I have miss-interpreted some of the things said, but the above makes sense to me. It's like glancing in a mirror and seeing a face you don't know, then realising that it's you. (or am I the only one who has done that? :sick: )


I do know that one of my worst faults is that I'm always looking to step into the guy's right-hand side, rather than hanging back, which just encourages 'circle' dancing.But that's where you're led: Most men stay stationary and lead you into their side - what Marc was doing was a little side-step with the same lead, so that the lady travels in a straight line instead of in a diagonal: you are still stepping into the man's right-hand side - it's just moved a bit.
I don't really think that ladies can do much about the circle thing - they go where the men tells them to: it's up to us leads to "sort it".

Rachel, any dance with you is a delight - I don't think I've noticed any faults in your dancing; either as a spectator or partner. :worthy: :yum: :flower:

[Rachel]

... But that's where you're led: Most men stay stationary and lead you into their side - what Marc was doing was a little side-step with the same lead, so that the lady travels in a straight line instead of in a diagonal: you are still stepping into the man's right-hand side - it's just moved a bit.
I don't really think that ladies can do much about the circle thing - they go where the men tells them to: it's up to us leads to "sort it".

Rachel, any dance with you is a delight - I don't think I've noticed any faults in your dancing; either as a spectator or partner. :worthy: :yum: :flower: Gadget - thank you so much! Although I know I have many many faults to work on. One day, I'd love to get private tuition ... But any constructive criticism from people who dance with me would be welcomed.

What I meant about going to the man's right side, is that, often, I don't even wait to be led there - I always just want to do it automatically after every single move, even if they guy's just stood not leading me anywhere. I have to concentrate so hard not to do this!
R.

[Lorna]

Hello Gadget,

I was wondering whether you would post something today. I was even worried that you may feel like giving up. I hope you didn't mind all my comments and personal tuition last night. You took it like a real man, well done!! :worthy:

As I said last night, you know loads of moves and you have a very strong and clear lead. You just need to work on your style. I was thinking that the best thing to do next, if you're up for it, would be to video yourself!!

But as I said last night, no one has the right to change your style. I would just like to help you smooth out your style. :grin:

I hope that some of the comments were of use and as I said I'd be delighted to continue working with you.

See you next week,

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

[Gadget]

I didn't know if you would want to be associated with the above {note: it's my interpretation of what was said - not her words}, so I was purposely vague about it - nice to get your views :)

You took it like a real man,you know, that's one of the more disturbing comments I've read here :what: :wink:

I did say thank you - I did mean it: It takes just as much gumption to approach someone with advice when you don't know how they will take it, as it does to actually take the advice being given. {did that make sense?} Respect :worthy:

As I said last night, you know loads of moves ...Now I know I've managed to pull off the greatest blag of all time :D - I only know about a five or so actual "moves"; the remainder is made up on the fly from bits and pieces of basic moves thrown in at random.


You just need to work on your style. I was thinking that the best thing to do next, if you're up for it, would be to video yourself!!I'm up for that, but give me a week or so to try to put theory into practice - Shown just now, I think that I would try and fix things I saw rather than actually take your advice. And they would probably be tiny things that no-one else would notice or huge things that just need reduced rather than eliminated. :sick:


But as I said last night, no one has the right to change your style. I would just like to help you smooth out your style.I don't think that anyone could change my style :blush: it's a bit ingrained - just needs some polish and smoothing of the rougher edges... maturing I think is a good word.


I hope that some of the comments were of use and as I said I'd be delighted to continue working with you.Only if I am understanding the comments correctly. :flower: for having the patience, and thinking I'm worth the attention. :D Look out world...


Doing a bit more self-examination: I think that until now I have been focused on my partner - MJ is a partner dance; they should be led well and shown off. No regrets about that - I have developed very good skills in leading.
But I think that I've missed the point - MJ is a partner dance: I have as much responsibility for myself as I do for my partner. You should dance 'together' - hard to explain properly: I have been dancing while leading my partner, and she has been dancing to that lead. However there is very little 'synergy' between the two of us. I'm not focused enough to pick up on her movements and styling and adapt to them - and very few partners can pick up on the man's styling and adapt to it.
I think that this may be the next lesson after my style is sorted. Don't want to think on too many things at once :sick:

[DianaS]

hi Gadget
I can really relate to a lot of what you were saying in your post, I think that you must be a lovely person to dance with, you are so very aware. I feel kind of embarrassed to admit that I may be the female version of you with, wide sweeping movements and a tendency to keep side on but I think that maybe I do. I like the side look over the shoulder, and the sweeping movement just takes the movement out to the tips of my fingers, but I guess it may look kind of silly! Hmmm you've given me something to think about, I may have to ask a trusted friend!

Guys I know don't seem to talk about dance they just sort of do it, so its a pleasure to meet you. :hug:

Best wishes,
Diana

[DianaS]

Sorry about the duplicate message above.
I don't know how to delete one of them Can any one assist? :sad: :tears:
D

[Tiggerbabe]

Sorry about the duplicate message above.
I don't know how to delete one of them Can any one assist? :sad: :tears:
DNo problem, Dianas, done :hug:
Silver members can edit their own posts - check out the paid subscriptions in your user cp :)

[Gadget]

...with, wide sweeping movements and a tendency to keep side on but I think that maybe I do. I like the side look over the shoulder, and the sweeping movement just takes the movement out to the tips of my fingers, but I guess it may look kind of silly!Not at all; in ladies it looks stylish and flowing - don't change. Please. :flower: :waycool: A good lead should be able to use it and create opportunities to let you shine.
In men however, unless they match the lady (and know when to match the lady) it can look as if they are trying to steal the limelight - become the centre of the dance and weave the lady in a pattern around them. Or it can just look over-enthusiastic and child-like. Or just look a mess. :blush:

Lisa reminded me of a good analogy at the weekend; the man should "frame" the lady. If the lady paints a beautiful picture, the frame should not be garish and detracting from the contents - it should be complimentary and show the picture to it's best.

As I've said, I tend to go beyond the stylish - In my quest to get a smooth and flowing, natural feel to my dancing, I take the dynamics of a move and continue them. Very nice theory. Feels nice to dance to. But taking it too far leads to a chaotic and un-controlled appearance - the difference between a nicely kept cottage garden and a gone-to-seed, over-run briar patch. Just need to prune a bit here & there; tame down a few over-developed things; and bring a little order and discipline to accentuate some areas and give shape to others.

Knowing what to do is easy. Putting it into practice is the hardest part...

{...and I think that I would very much enjoy a dance with you... :D:flower:}

[DianaS]

Not at all; in ladies it looks stylish and flowing - don't change. Please. :flower: :waycool: A good lead should be able to use it and create opportunities to let you shine.
In men however, unless they match the lady (and know when to match the lady) it can look as if they are trying to steal the limelight - become the centre of the dance and weave the lady in a pattern around them. Or it can just look over-enthusiastic and child-like. Or just look a mess. :blush:

Lisa reminded me of a good analogy at the weekend; the man should "frame" the lady. If the lady paints a beautiful picture, the frame should not be garish and detracting from the contents - it should be complimentary and show the picture to it's best.

As I've said, I tend to go beyond the stylish - In my quest to get a smooth and flowing, natural feel to my dancing, I take the dynamics of a move and continue them. Very nice theory. Feels nice to dance to. But taking it too far leads to a chaotic and un-controlled appearance - the difference between a nicely kept cottage garden and a gone-to-seed, over-run briar patch. Just need to prune a bit here & there; tame down a few over-developed things; and bring a little order and discipline to accentuate some areas and give shape to others.

Knowing what to do is easy. Putting it into practice is the hardest part...

{...and I think that I would very much enjoy a dance with you... :D:flower:}


Thanks for clarifying this. I was scarlet when I first read the post and realised the similarlity in our styles!

I'd love to dance with you, Gadget, and continue to chat to you here!
Speak soon,
Diana
PS Whats your REAL name, and why do you call your self Gadget?

[Gadget]

Well, week 1 of Gadget's new and improved dancing has elapsed...
{BTW that is my name: I've been known as "Gadget" longer than by any other name. Even my 'real' name is not my proper name.}

I've pruned some of the more extravagant flourishes, and clamped down on some excesses. I'm dancing more linear rather than in circles. I'm slightly more upright. And seemingly there is some improvement :clap: Lorna::flower: {Although miracles don't happen on one night, it would be nice to get some yae/nae from some of the folks I danced with last night.}.

posture: Still 'bending' too much and twisting/hunching my shoulders, although now I'm conscious of it it's getting better. Slowly.

styling: In cutting back on excesses and 'tightening' a lot of over-zealous actions, it feels as if I'm caging a lot of myself in. Hopefully to be let out in a more controlled manor, but time will tell.

moves: Damned if I know what are "beginner" moves any more! I rely on the beginner's class to prompt me, but get bored with them too easily and revert to pseudo-random moves. I think that the reason behind just using beginner moves to keep it 'simple' so that excesses can be easier identified and "proper" styling can be enforced. I'm hoping that I can half ignore this bit and rely on knowing how all the different bits of a move work without having to narrow things down to putting them into a specific order. :sick:

positioning: This is really hard. But I think that it shows the greatest improvement - however it is so difficult to lead some ladies to stay where you put them! I think that
some intermediate dancers have now been conditioned to dance in circles so much that free-spins and movement in/out all result in moving a step to her left off of the man's centre line. The only way I've found to deal with it is to dance in quartiles (ie rotate the cross 90º when the lady 'drifts' too much.)
Beginner ladies are relatively easy to guide in the 'cross' format, but I am finding that there is a lot more actual 'leading' involved rather than just guiding.
There is a slight lack of more advanced dancers at my current venue, so I don't have enough experience to form an opinion. (although I did have some fab dances last night :flower: )

looking: This is still letting me down. I think that it's linked to posture and positioning - improving my posture should help, and if I get the lady to be infront of me, then It should improve. This is possibly just too much to think about on top of everything else.

Another one that was added...
footwork: In order to get into the right position and move properly, I have "evolved"{:wink:} lots of little steps. It can look in-decisive and shuffling. What I need to do is place my feet where they would end up after the two half-beat shuffles instead of trotting. Another smoothing. I don't know exactly how I'll be able to do this... spent years developing it.


All the work in clearing away has led me to discover that a slightly harder problem to fix: my underlying positioning: I move and rotate/twist a lot to compensate for ladies not going quite where I want them to be - whether it's from my leading or their miss-interpretation. (I'm working on the basis that it's the former). I'm basically not in quite the right position for leading the next part/move comfortably, so shuffle, rotate, twist... to make the lead easier and more flowing...

Just when you think you are improving, you clear up one thing to find another two underneath. :sigh:

[Rachel]

...The only way I've found to deal with it is to dance in quartiles (ie rotate the cross 90º when the lady 'drifts' too much.) That made me laugh (ironically) cos I recently realised Marc has to do exactly the same with me at times!!
Rachel

[Gadget]

Unlike the majority of the addicts in here, I only get let out my cage once a week - I don't know if this makes it easier or harder to get rid of bad habits and try to focus on new ones, but it feels like an up-hill struggle.

So, week 3 has passed since my first post {does that sound like an addict's introduction? :wink:} - I think that most ladies now find me a lot harder to dance with; funny how everything is intertwined isn't it.:rolleyes:

This is probably down to my not giving enough advanced notice of moves: Before, I could just throw arms about at random and follow wherever that led the lady. Now I am trying to lead them to/on a specific path on the floor - I can't rely on 'instant reaction' to my leads. I have to prepare every move and set it up so that the reaction comes in the right place. I'm not used to thinking that far ahead: most of my dancing is spur of the moment. Concentrating on that and I slip back into circular dancing which sort of defeats the point!

When I try and cut down on excessive steps in my footwork, I find I am then prone to moving with my torso instead of my hips - twisting and bending instead of turning. Which as well as looking worse, leads to more 'side-on' moves.

Still slouching too much, tying too many knots with arms and not leading the ladies properly. Hopefully this is just a slight down before ascending to a much better plateau of my dancing. :tears:

[Zebra Woman]

I love dancing in a slot or cross. It helps to dance really close to the stage or the edge then I can use them as a reference. On the cross I like to touch the stage and push off, just for fun. :wink:

I know the 90 degree drift happens to me now and then. It can be the me drifting/anticipating or the man not stepping clear, leading precisely. You are not alone there.

I think it's just great that you're trying to get better. :clap:
Good luck. I look forward to dancing with you, one day. :hug:

[Gadget]

I love dancing in a slot or cross. It helps to dance really close to the stage or the edge then I can use them as a reference. On the cross I like to touch the stage and push off, just for fun. :wink:
Can you dance that way if the man dosn't lead it? Don't know: I am dancing at a fairly new venue with only a couple of "old" faces {not in age - just that I recognise from other venues in the past} So there are very, very few people who have even heard of the concept, let alone put it into practice.


I think it's just great that you're trying to get better. :clap:
Good luck. I look forward to dancing with you, one day. :hug:
Isn't everyone trying to get better :confused:?
See you at the BFG.:wink::hug:

[Zebra Woman]

Hi Gadget

No no! I can only dance in a cross if I'm led to do that by the man. But I prefer that to swirling around which takes up so much more space and I can end up being biffed. It's so much more powerful and moody.

I have noticed more slot style dancing at Hipsters than in my local area, partly 'cos it's taught there, and it's more necessary 'cos it's so crowded. I don't think the woman needs to know it to do it, but I remember at Salsa being told to try and stay lined up with the floorboards. You could tell the lady that's what you're aiming for if you're having trouble...That's why the stage is so good, 'cos you don't have to say anything , if you're close enough to it she has to stay on the line.

I keep hearing about the BFG. Big Forum Gathering, or are we talking Roald Dahl here?

I dont' know where or when it is. I'm doing Southport, is it there?

I'll save a slot for you at Southport. :flower:

Alison

[Sheepman]

I don't think the woman needs to know it to do it, If that's true then it must be my leading at fault :tears:

I far prefer dancing with a partner who is familiar with the slot/cross, of course the lead should generally make this happen, but there are some ladies who tend to always move around in a circle, or (dare I say it!) some who are all over the place. :eek: We all (?) dance in a slot during the lesson, so why is it such an odd concept?

Time for a new thread I think . . .

Greg

PS the BFG is here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1809)

[Gadget]

I keep hearing about the BFG. Big Forum Gathering, or are we talking Roald Dahl here?
There is (was) a looong discussion about having a Forum Gathering, it eventually resolved about here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1809&p=51277) - in Perth over the weekend of the 24th/26th September.
:flower: Thank you for the offer, but unforunatly someone else will have to fill my slot :tears:

[Zebra Woman]

If that's true then it must be my leading at fault :tears:

I far prefer dancing with a partner who is familiar with the slot/cross, of course the lead should generally make this happen, but there are some ladies who tend to always move around in a circle, or (dare I say it!) some who are all over the place. Greg

PS the BFG is here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1809)

I think if the woman finishes each move facing the man totally square on, then she's stayed in the slot, hasn't she? I know some women overturn, so they're slightly side on, and others drift to the side when they spin, causing the rotation.

IMHO drifting out of the slot is one thing that can sometimes be blamed on the follower. I await correction..... :sick: So I don't think it's your fault. From my POV your lead is great, totally slot-tastic :worthy:

Can't make BFG :tears: Will I ever dance with Gadget :tears:

[Gadget]

Tears?? come on.. I'm not that good

(..yet :wink: :D)

[Zebra Woman]

[/font]
That's why I'd like to dance with you....

You don't need to be that good, but I'm sure you will be a fab dancer by the time I get to dance with you. :kiss:

[TheTramp]

Can't make BFG :tears: :tears:
Can't make the BFG?? You get 4 months notice, and you can't rearrange your schedule?!?

Where are your priorities?? :na:

Trampy

[Gadget]

Another week has passed. And my dancing? Well, I'm ashamed to say that I reverted back to dancing withthe lady, rather than imposing a strong lead required for 'slot/cross' dancing: So I just had fun and didn't really think about improving anything. :waycool:

Did however find that I'm a lot more 'blank' with moves than I used to be :what: I've not danced with such a limited repertoire for a long time...
First move, manspin, yo-yo, catapult, basket. With the occasional comb, arm jive and octopus. :tears: Where have all my moves gone??? Perhaps Lisa fried them with a convoluted intermediate lesson.

[Gadget]

Well, yet another week goes by...
I think I'm improving, but there are still a few ingrained habits that are proving reluctant to change:

- I'm pushing the lady to one side or another, then turning to face when bringing them in for the next move. Result: side-on dancing. I need to turn as I move the lady out - "flashlighting".

- I still bend my body to almost enclose the space I want the lady to move into. Result: hunched and disjointed appearance.

- I'm being lazy with some footwork on basic moves, and over-zealous with some footwork on more intricate moves. Result: the 'basic' moves appear like I'm stationary and shoving the lady about; the 'intricate' moves look like I'm buzzing round the lady.

- My arm/elbow movements don't match my body movements, or the timing of them. Don't quite know how I came up with this one, but I want to look like a lead comes through the hips/torso; the shoulder; down the arm and into the fingertips - the lady flowing on from that movement.
Just now I'm a bit disjointed; I can be standing, looking one direction with my arms conducting the lady in another.

Again it's all balance; too much of one thing and too little of another. I am still working on evening it all out to a level, consistent base.


I don't know if it's the people I dance with, or me getting better; but I find that the majority of ladies I can now lead to a 'cross' shape with out as much concentration or 'force' applied to the lead :D
I've rained in a few of the more 'wild' flourishes and dramatisims, which seems to have smoothed a couple of rough edges :D
I'm starting to remember some variations and can apply the 'cross' principle to them :D

All in all, a most enjoyable evening thanks to Curtain's choice in music and the ladies I danced with. :worthy: :waycool:

[Gadget]

Danced on Tuesday instead of the usual Wednesday this week: Didn't notice that much difference in my dancing - a bit too many travelling returns, octopuses and similar than I would have liked :sick:, but managing to keep fairly "caged" and controlled.

From my dancing last night I have come to the conclusion that there are different stages followers go through and these directly affect the moves I do:
1) the beginner - I do basic moves and concentrate on leading them well.
2) the improver - I mix up a bit and lead some variations, cut-out a few returns.
3) the intermediate - They know the moves but there are lots of little errors, exaggerations and things slightly off: these spark unusual variations and "recovery" moves that can look cool and varied. (...and if I get it right, planned :waycool: )
4) the good dancer - there are very few errors in their movement: I have to rely on my own inspiration for moves and variation. Even harder when I struggle for inspiration in the music.

I think that I have been dancing with "intermediate" dancers so much that I have been relying on them providing me with inspiration - very lazy and not really encouraging me to listen to the music. My "Musical interpretation" is 90% timing of moves rather than the moves themselves, so when dancing with good dancers I find myself struggling to come up with "interesting" dances. :tears: Which is a shame because I finish with a sort of "unfulfilled" feeling, thinking; "that could have been so much better if I had led them into some cool moves because I know they could make it look/feel amazing."
Anyone with me on this?

[Gordon J Pownall]

Which is a shame because I finish with a sort of "unfulfilled" feeling, thinking; "that could have been so much better if I had led them into some cool moves because I know they could make it look/feel amazing."
Anyone with me on this?

It's not easy leading...generally....

just remember that a follower may get twenty different dances each night....leaders only get one - the one they lead....

Don't beast yourself - interpretation is as much the followers responsibility as the leaders...... :hug:

[Gordon J Pownall]

It's not easy leading...generally....

just remember that a follower may get twenty different dances each night....leaders only get one - the one they lead....

Don't beast yourself - interpretation is as much the followers responsibility as the leaders...... :hug:


P.S.

What do you think is a cool move.......with the right music, partner and eye contact / attitude even an armjive can be *cool* :waycool:

[Gadget]

It's not easy leading...generally....

just remember that a follower may get twenty different dances each night....leaders only get one - the one they lead....
You miss-understand me I think: I can lead. I can dance. I am just so used to using small errors in the lady's following or my leading as a spring-board to "creative" dancing. Without these minor imperfections, I have to actually listen to the music and think on moves :what: I'm just not used to thinking.

Don't beast yourself - interpretation is as much the followers responsibility as the leaders......No; I dissagree: the follower can only interperate within the window the lead gives. Otherwise they are hi-jacking the dance and can be off-puting for the lead. {Although feel free to try and distract me while dancing :devil::drool:}


P.S.:What do you think is a cool move.......with the right music, partner and eye contact / attitude even an armjive can be *cool* :waycool:
oh no.. I know a cool move when I see/feel one - it flows, snaps, hits the music in the right places and leaves you both with big grins.

[Banana Man]

..... so when dancing with good dancers I find myself struggling to come up with "interesting" dances. :tears: Which is a shame because I finish with a sort of "unfulfilled" feeling, thinking; "that could have been so much better if I had led them into some cool moves because I know they could make it look/feel amazing."
Anyone with me on this?

:yeah: totally agree, danced with superb partners last night but couldn't get the interesting moves in, felt like I had the wrong songs for the wrong partners to really make it work - other nights, perfect song for the perfect partner and it starts to work, when it really works, it does feel amazing.

[Gadget]

...hello, my name's Gadget. It's now been a week since my last post... {:wink:}

Been on holiday for a few days, so managed to escape last night and go dancing: Great music by Paul :D. Only fell on my ass once :blush:. Some great dances :waycool:.

I'm getting less conscious of specific control patterns I am leading the lady through - I tend now to make sure that I am facing/dancing in quadrants, and have let my lead revert to a light touch. The result is that some ladies drift in circles round me, but I can handle that & it just results in different move combinations to take this into account. Whether it looks more controlled or not is up for debate, but I think it should.

I'm still doing things that I know are "wrong" and curse myself on the dance floor all the time - done them so long that they are in-grained. However I am now "cheating" with them and turning the 'error' on my part into another move :whistle:
(example: 1st move - sweeping the leg back. Excellent if you are a lady. Fine if you are a lead and match the lady's arc. But I have long legs and change partners so often that getting the timing and arc right is rare.
example: 1st move - stepping back with the right while drawing the lady in and leaving the left extended. Normally used as a preparation to send the lady forward, or follow her round on the "twist out" bit; but shear laziness leads me to do this almost every time and forces me to finish the move with something 'different' that I didn't really want to do.)

I think I also need to repeat the mantra "head up, shoulders back" when dancing: I still can't stop slouching and peering. It may look sultry and passionate for BTC Bill and some Latin dancers, but I think I'm more 'squinting' than 'smouldering' :tears:

[Gadget]

Another week... doesn't time just disappear?

I'm sorry to say that I think I am relapsing into a flailing thing: Most movement is {still :rolleyes:} coming from a line at shoulder height. I lean, twist and stretch to make moves - while my 'center' is at waist level and does minimal work.
Controlling the lady more does eliminate this to a certain extent; I am not having to compensate for larger steps, drifting or anything else. But this is fixing the symptoms, not curing the ailment.

I think I need to concentrate on "Flashlighting" (having the hips and torso follow and face my partner; "a flashlight is embedded in your chest and you have to try and keep it shining on your partner" is how it was described to me.)
That and controlling my distance: I think that the optimum distance should be just out of reach of a fully extended arm - when you take hands, it is nice and relaxed; moves requiring closer distance can be made; it allows enough 'give' for the lady to turn and twist without stretching.

I have the "quadrant" thing now and it seems to work quite well; except I seem to be putting in a lot of simple turns, returns and travelling returns to maintain the flow and correct the lady's position. :(
Picking up the spare hand on a travelling return, sways and catapults seem to be dominating my dancing just now... I think it's because I tried one dance at the beginning of the evening to see if I could dance without raising my hands above the lady's head and it just filtered into the rest of the evening.

And my improvisation is returning: I did a few nice combinations last night that seemed to flow really well. :waycool:

I'm hoping I don't embarrass myself {or more importantly any partner} at the weekend.

[Trish]

I'm still doing things that I know are "wrong" and curse myself on the dance floor all the time - done them so long that they are in-grained.

I sympathise with this! I've recently had a private lesson (spurred on by you, Gadget), and have been given a list of things to improve. I'm ok with some of them now (using my spare arm for example, and improving where I put my feet when I do leans etc), but some of them I always think about after the opportunity has gone (the sweeping your foot out in a yoyo or first move for instance) and others I'm still not anywhere near adept at (like making stuff like combs/freezes really sexy - you can end up feeling really self conscious!). It's nice to know I'm not the only one going through all this though! :)


I think I also need to repeat the mantra "head up, shoulders back" when dancing

I agree about this too, although half the time I don't realise I'm dropping my head down I don't think! It's only when people point it out :sad:

I'm sure you're dancing's improved a lot more than you think it has, you've been doing this dance-improvement exercise for weeks, and I've only just started, so I have a long way to go! Keep up the good work, it's interesting to hear about it from the improving my leading point of view too! :clap:

[under par]

I have just agreed in the last few weeks to dance Britroc competition with someone.

My motivation is to improve my dancing.

I wish to achieve this by practice and feedback.

I hope more focus on my leading skill and style will help me to become a better dancer.

Already I have had lots of honest feedback. The type of feedback which I do not think is ever given at normal lessons or freestyles.

My partner has told me for instance that when I do a mambo step I need to have my legs closer together, I tend to step back and forth with my legs a shoulder width apart. Also that I tend to have an angular lean forward due to my height relative to my shorter dance partners. Oh and I don't smile enough!

These and many other small but constructive comments have given me lots to focus on.

We haven't danced as partners that long yet and it s only 3 weeks to Britroc but I feel the process is a productive one for us both to learn more about our own dancing and our ability to give and receive feedback and learn from it.

No pretentions about the competition but really am looking forward to the experience.

[Minnie M]

Thank you UP for bringing this thread to my intention -

How ya doin' Gadget ? How did you get on at BFG, please tell all :yeah:

I would love to have a dance with you.

Nothing is better than a good positive but light lead from someone who is obviously enjoying the dance and dancing with me :D - Complicated moves make you concentrate more which means you can't enjoy the music as well as your partners as much :drool:

Musicality is more important that clever leads, can't find it cors it's too early in the morning, but there is a poll on here to prove that.

[under par]

Thank you UP for bringing this thread to my intention -



Attention , attention, attention!!!!!. Maybe Minnie!



Sorry for being a pedant so early on a sunday morning Lynda. Anyway I'm going to bed now after work! :what: :kiss: :kiss: :hug:

[Minnie M]

Attention..........

Keep up the good work with Jo, you look good together and good luck at Britroc :clap:. I will be at "Sultans of Swing" in Coventry, learning style & technique from the master Steve Mitchell & Johnny (from Beach Boogie fame)

[under par]

Keep up the good work with Jo, you look good together and good luck at Britroc :clap:. I will be at "Sultans of Swing" in Coventry, learning style & technique from the master Steve Mitchell & Johnny (from Beach Boogie fame)

Hope you have a great time in Coventry, though I can't say I have heard of the master but then I've never been a swinger. :cheers:

I know Jo and I will have fun as will Mrs Par and her partner at Britroc

[Gadget]

... Oh and I don't smile enough!
:D
The thing that initilly set the wheels in motion for this was when the JiveAces were in Aberdeel last time - my wife made a few comments about other people's dancing and mine that made me think.

Recently they played Aberdeen again - Franck, Tiggerbabe, Lisa, Gaylord, and a few other good dancers were there and I got different comments: Franck is now her idol - his exuberance and joy of dancing just shines through everything. Her main comment was that I looked too serious and should smile more.

A conceous effort for a couple of weeks and I am reliably informed that I now smile lots when dancing. Result. :D

UP - I wish you the best of luck; - I kind of exploded a bit at the bfg :blush: I'm aout to start "drawing myself inwards" again and concentrating on leading; especially 'body' leads (after Franck's workshops I find I can do the basic forward and back leading, but need to work on subtle turning and directional leads.)


How ya doin' Gadget ? How did you get on at BFG, please tell all
:D:clap::hug::waycool:
I'm meant to be putting on the first load of washing, then tidtying the kids room... :whistle: I'll type up my synopsis of the weekend later.

I would love to have a dance with you.
I just love to dance - and would humbly accept your offer, but my arms are not long enough to reach that far... I'll just need to wait untill we meet in person :wink:

[Minnie M]

........but then I've never been a swinger..

Boasting or complaining :whistle:

[under par]

Boasting or complaining :whistle:

Now I don't want to answer that in case I should incriminate myself........I know my rights! :wink:

[Gadget]

Last night I went dancing, fully intending to try "calming down" a bit and working on getting a more consistant base for my dancing... but tramp's music and the atmosphere were so good that I failed.

So :D :clap: :waycool: for the night's dancing; but :tears: for my learning curve. (Although leading a begginer through the intermediate class was a challenge and showed that I don't lead into an open first move very well...:whistle: )

I also feel that I can only "experiment" when I seek out a dancer (normally begginers); if someone asks me to dance, then I assume that they want to dance with me in "dance" mode; not "simplified" mode where I mainly dance begginers moves and focus on concepts rather than the music.

[Kez]

Gadget, after last night, you have made me break my "no-posting" vow.....

I haven't laughed so much in ages :wink: Not at the beginner but at you trying to keep a smile on your face while looking determined not to make a fool of either yourself or your dance partner!! It was fantastic..... must be one of the very first times I have ever seen you stuck for a move or two!!

Thank you for a fantastic dance, even after I laughed at you!!!

And hope you realise you made a lucky escape when we were on the double trouble hunt........ Had to ask Trampy instead!!!

Kerry

[Gadget]

Time for a followup on this thread; although I have not specifically been targeting areas to improve my dancing, but every time I dance I learn something new.

I was videoed, but the track didn't really allow for much flamboyance, so my dancing was quite tame (or so I'm told). Marc took some footage of me at the weekend, but I haven't seen it to disect.
Initial impression was that it's not as bad as I feared! A couple of things I noticed that I want to work on:

- Posture. Chest out, shoulders back, chin up. I sloap through the dance {made up word, but seems appropriate :wink:}
- Feet I have 'floppy feet' - (when running, it's more reminiscent of a camel's loap than anything else; throw the legs and hope that the feet end up under them. :rolleyes: ) I think it's highlighted by the myriad of little shuffles I do to get into better position.
- Hips If I watch the recording with no sound, the only thing to mark tempo or have any sense of rhythm is my partner's movements and the timing of the moves. Hands, feet, hips, etc are all smoothed to the point of a cardboard dance.
- Head I tend to look where I want the lady to be in some moves; which is OK if I just turned my head slightly and used my eyes - but I seem to use my nose to direct the lady - the movement is too big and it dips my head.
- Spare hand flops lifeless, out of the way. Most of the time anyway.

Over all, it looks as if there are hesitations and that my partner is not under my control - it looks like there are loads of improvisations and "...oh-sh1t, what now..." moments: When actually in the dance, it feels smooth with no hesitation or deviation from the patterns.

Next plan of action:
A couple of things I want to try:
- using the simple "step in, step out" in my dancing to try and cut down on those little shuffles.
- while I'm doing that, I might try a little hip roll (as per the other thread) to mark time.
- When leading the lady into a stop or barrier, then into another move I have a tendency to just lead them into a stand-still. The ladies are so used to using these as 'bounces' to go back the way they came, that if I want to lead something different, they have to adjust just as they are about to come forward - I am going to try to lead these moves with a bit more anticipation; instead of just leading to stop, I will try to continue the pressure for a fraction more than leading her to a stop.
Or perhaps slow it down to a gentle stop instead of a hard breaking... Don't know - need to experiment a bit.

Oh, and a mantra of "head up, shoulders back".


While not really focusing on improving, I have found a couple of things out that I think have made my dancing smoother and more controlled:
Instead of exerting controll into and through the lead, exert a little bit at the end of the lead and it will set you up for the next move without having to use so much controll while executing it.
(My definition of "controll"? - a precise lead; following a path smoothly and not letting the follower's feedback deviate from that path or that timing)
Maintain contact with your partner; there is seldom even a free-spin I send the lady into that I am not in contact with her*. This servers two purposes
- a good follower can tell where you are from this contact, a novice follower is re-assured and knows you've not abandoned her.
- you know where she is and which direction she is facing: You don't have to use your eyes and see where they are or how they are moving; you can feel it.
With this increased perception of the lady, it becomes easier to lead her.
Don't just lead with your hands; use your wrists, forearms, elbows, shoulders... Any point of contact between you and your partner is a lead point.
As with your hand leading the ladies, the closer to the 'core', the less movement you need to lead.
Dips and seducers; (I found them so easy once I twigged onto this) don't move your balance centre-point. Your feet may move to drop you lower or give elegant lines, but your weight and ballance should not move from the preperation through into the seducer - the preperation sets it up and the rest is just making it look and feel good.
To actually execute the dip/seducer it's just a little twist of the hips and shoulders while giving the lady secure support.
If the preperation feels wrong, then you don't go into the dip or seducer - just flow it into another move rather than risk injury (well, the motivation for me is to avoid ruining the dance rather than any fear of personal damage :blush: )
No screwups - if a lady does something unexpected, then flow with it and see where it ends up; figure out why they thought your lead was in that direction and then you have two leads from one - an improved lead for the move that you were trying to lead, and the new one. I have a couple of 'signature' moves that started that way.

Unfortunatly, from a {sublime} weekend of dancing, I have now a whole load of new moves and concepts to experiment with; so my dancing is bound to deteriorate untill I get the hang of them (or abandon them :whistle: ) .
{So be warned anyone who dances with me - even stranger moves than normal :D}

[MartinHarper]

It looks like there are loads of improvisations and "...oh-sh1t, what now..." moments...

Is this a bad thing? Maybe it's just me, but when I watch good dancers freestyle, it's often those kinds of moments that I appreciate the most. *shrug*

[Clive Long]

Time for a followup on this thread; although I have not specifically been targeting areas to improve my dancing, but every time I dance I learn something new.

<< snip >>

I was videoed, but the track didn't really allow for much flamboyance

<< snip >>



You are one determined and brave dude being videoed Mr. G.

I was videoed once (not a home video Lory). Ghastly, ghastly experience watching it. The video, camera and cameraman and now buried in soft peat.

You have been duly repped Gadget.

[Gadget]

Thought I would update this thread since I am now spending quite a bit of thought and dance time on improving myself again...
{Apologies in advance; this is all going to seem a bit 'zen' like...}

I discovered recently (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=205764&postcount=30) that there is a massive void in my dancing. I've built stuff over it and round it to compensate and even recognise it's absence in followers. I'm missing the connection between the contact point I'm leading from and the rest of me.

I can lead pretty well - I've spent a long time learning how. I can push and pull on the right places with the right force to get my partner to move themselves just about anywhere I want. I understand the concept of "frame"(*) and look for it in my partners to be able to lead them properly. But I've never developed it my self.
This concept is hard to put into words, but I have always tried to flow with my partner's movements and use them to form the next move - sort of jumping on and guiding it where I wanted. Being "connected" through myself is more allowing this flow of movements to move 'through' me and influence my actions for the next move. Action influencing me rather than me influencing action.

(*Frame - the awareness and connection between every point in your body: With a ridged 'frame' engaged, you can stand on one foot with an arm out; pushing horizontally on that arm would rotate you on the ball of the foot - no arm, shoulder, waist, hips or knees flexing to take the force.)


Now that I look on my dancing again, there are a couple of signs that I see as tell-tales:

- I always seem to open out and over-rotate away from my partner.
{With a proper connection I am following my own hand, so I would either finish the move in the correct orientation (by maintaining my facing and shifting my self or breaking/rotating my 'cross' to face) or extend the lead to my follower so they can move into place (by taking an extra beat or being aware of the connection and leading them properly in the first place.)
With a too ridged frame however, every time a lead is from one side of the body (even a simple one handed return), then the other side rotates away slightly to maintain the frame. I am going to try thinking about pushing my opposing shoulder forward slightly every time I lift one arm to turn my partner or catch them.}

- I am moving myself as one 'move' ends so that I can be in the right place for the next one to begin. Ie. Always seeming to be stepping round my partner and moving myself to maintain their 'energy' and flow.
{With a good 'frame', this energy should be able to be contained and dampened or re-directed. Tamed to be released with a better control, focus and direction. Because I am aware of the movement/force that this one contact point is having on the rest of the body, I can channel it into something or somewhere else.}

- I am leading solely by my/through my own hands.
{Since it all is connected, I should be able to lead from any contact point on my own body. I have been developing this anyway, but I've now got a slightly heightened sense of it. Eg, the step back on the sway is led as much from the contact at my hip and inner shoulder as it is from my outer hand.}
Personal achievement last time I danced: - was leading some walks and pivots from framed contact solely on the lower back/ribcage of my partner and lead them into a very smooth dip without any other contact or signals. :cool:

- Some followers seem to follow my lead better with their eyes closed. My hand was saying one thing, but the rest of my body was not behind it or giving conflicting signals.
{I should be able to lead better because my lead isn't just coming from my hand, it's coming from everywhere and being directed through the hand.}


I think that the main problem is going to be keeping connected within myself without being ridged; a flexible frame rather than the more ridged frame that is seen in ballroom and 'close' partner dances.

This one is going to take a while to work on. Wish me luck. :)

[janey]

Well for all your zen like thoughts (from my shy beginners perspective) my dances with you at the Beach Ballroom were definately the 'wow' ones of the night. :respect:

I only hope that I can be a perseptive as you about my dancing & hopefully improve (a lot) in the future...

[Freya]

Wow!!!! :respect:

I am tucked up in bed with swollen glands and such an awful cold that I can't lie down and be able to breath (Makes falling asleep difficult) It Leaves alot of time to read the posts!

Gadget I think your a wonderful dancer and so much fun to dance with! :grin: I Do love the slow ones with ya as well as the fast ones! :awe: :na: I remember my first ever night at culter and I had more fun with you in one dance than the rest put together! I often feel that i'm not quite good enough to do your dancing justice!:worthy:

It's really brave of you to post a journal like thread on how you have approach the huge task of improving your dance skills! There always seams to be something else, Doesn't there??

On the topics of frames and I'm no expert (Does 6 Weeks of tango make me One???:rofl: lol) it's all about leading with your chest isn't it and making your arms an expansion of this! I've found it can be difficult to do this in ceroc because the moves don't involve a ridgid frame like Tango! and it's not always a double handed move! However by leading the woman back in front of you after every move you should be able to use your body to make her follow where you want to go next!!! Not sure this makes sense but if you can get the general drift or i've reiterated what you said let me know (Head feels as if it's full of cotton wool at the Mo! :confused: )

Reading this has helped me understand how i've been feeling recently! I'm being highly critical of myself but not known where i've been going wrong! :really: Alot of feedback that i get is not to be too hard on myself i'm dancing alot better than I was when I first started (Apparently:confused: ) Roy - i dasnced with him at my first ever class in Aberdeen and then for the 2nd time last week! - Said that it had come on imensley (spelling?) since that class!:cheers:

Following my post on here last week (What makes a dance a great dance?) I had a couple of dances with Lisa on Thursday and she pointed out that I spin well but really quite fast and often over spin!!! :blush: She has given me a few pointer's on how to control them and fit them to the music! :flower: By pushing the ball of my foot I can slow down and really be in charge of my spin! I practised doing this for the rest of the night and it seamed to work but on the fast songs (Which I Love! - Far too hyper and energetic apparently!! Ceilings the limit I say! Hehe) I stuggled to keep this thought in my head - Ah well more practice required!!!

The other thing that has seamed to help is that I was asked to help out at a begginers workshop on sunday! I found the first part of the workshop repetitive (Done all this before sort of thoughts) but decided to use it as a chance to work on my style, how it was lead, where are my feet going, where am i actually being lead rather than anticipating. The second part of the workshop foccused more on lead & Follow which I have never really had the chance to think about! How the guy actually builds up the lead etc! I think that it has made me a better follower and am really glad I had the chance to do it! Thanx Lorna :flower: :hug:

My final word on this - I promise! - is that I went to a salsa night at the forum ( I have never done salsa before honest:innocent: ) There are steps or footwork:eek: , now initially I could get these steps on my own but with a partner Could I?....Nope! :tears: So I gave up trying! Wiggled my hips a bit and found other non salsa peeps to strut my stuff with! :waycool: Towards the end of the night (when the dance floor had quietened down abit) I noticed a guy teaching a girl a wee bit! So when the track ended I made a dash for him!!! (Thanx ceroc for giving me the confidence!!!!:cheers: ) he was fine with the fact that I'd never done this before and asked If I knew the basic steps? My response.....:confused: Kinda so he went thro the 2 basic steps and Voila I could do them! :D AND With a partner! :grin: HE then started throwing in some bits and bobs - spins, turns, pretzles, blocks that kinda thing....And I followed with not too many obvious mistakes!!!! At the end of the dance he gave me a huge compliment he said that I was one of the best 1st ever salsa dances he'd ever had and it was obvious that I had done other forms of dance for years! :grin: :grin: :grin: what did I get out of it? (Appart from a huge ego?:wink: ) Renewed enjoyment for ceroc! I can do this and I am improving!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Anyway thats my say!

Night all!

Freya
xXx

[Lou]

I am tucked up in bed with swollen glands and such an awful cold that I can't lie down and be able to breath (Makes falling asleep difficult)
Hey. I have that. Get yourself down to the doctors & get some antibiotics. I did yesterday, and I'm feeling much better already. :hug:

[Tessalicious]

such an awful cold
get some antibiotics:what: :eek: :sick:

No offence, but it's hardly surprising the limiting range of antibiotics the medical profession have available is rapidly becoming useless if people are still getting them prescribed for (viral) colds...

[Lou]

:what: :eek: :sick:

No offence, but it's hardly surprising the limiting range of antibiotics the medical profession have available is rapidly becoming useless if people are still getting them prescribed for (viral) colds...
None taken. :hug: I take your point & agree up to a point. And, as it happens I wouldn't have wanted to, if it hadn't been for 2 completely different people tell me that the only thing that helped them over this particular type of "cold" was to get that treatment. They'd been suffering for weeks. I'm self-employed. I can't afford to take time off, as I don't get paid.

However, I can assure you I haven't taken any antibiotics for years. This time, the swollen glands & sinus infection caused my doctor to be somewhat concerned. That, and the fact that the cold had hung around for over a week with no sign of improvement. 2 days into the treatment & I'm actually feeling more human. :nice: I hope the advice helps Freya. Get well soon. :hug:

[Genie]

(Freya) Gadget I think your a wonderful dancer and so much fun to dance with! I Do love the slow ones with ya as well as the fast ones! I remember my first ever night at culter and I had more fun with you in one dance than the rest put together! I often feel that i'm not quite good enough to do your dancing justice!

Agreed. But I also understand his need to improve on 'something'. Dancers who think they have no room for improvement are both arrogant and likely to die of boredom. It's no fun if you have nothing to aspire to :) I know just keeping my feet under me when dancing with certain leads was one of my first aspirations :p


(Gadget)- Some followers seem to follow my lead better with their eyes closed. My hand was saying one thing, but the rest of my body was not behind it or giving conflicting signals.

If a lady closes her eyes, it doesn't necessarilly mean she's having difficulty with your lead, hun ;)

Right now I'm concentrating on following guys who are shorter than me, without getting a sore back/thighs from all the contortions *sigh* I really would love to be just that few inches shorter sometimes.

[Freya]

Agreed. But I also understand his need to improve on 'something'. Dancers who think they have no room for improvement are both arrogant and likely to die of boredom. It's no fun if you have nothing to aspire to I know just keeping my feet under me when dancing with certain leads was one of my first aspirations :p

:yeah: Lol i totally agree with you! I don't like arogant men! You can often feel worse than useless after dancing with them! Why can't all men be like the lovely ones at ceroc! :tears:

Freya xXx

:wink: :flower:

[Andy McGregor]

I know my rights! :wink:Only because they've been read to you so often :innocent:

[Genie]

:yeah: Lol i totally agree with you! I don't like arogant men! You can often feel worse than useless after dancing with them! Why can't all men be like the lovely ones at ceroc! :tears:


Because then we'd never get to sit down...

[Lynn]

On the topics of frames and I'm no expert (Does 6 Weeks of tango make me One???:rofl: lol) it's all about leading with your chest isn't it and making your arms an expansion of this! I've found it can be difficult to do this in ceroc because the moves don't involve a ridgid frame like Tango! So why aren't you posting on the tango thread as well? :whistle: (With all us other tango non-experts!)

[Freya]

So why aren't you posting on the tango thread as well? :whistle: (With all us other tango non-experts!)
Because It was nearly a year ago since i did those 6 weeks of Tango! I really enjoyed the dancing but found that the crowd weren't very open to new comers!!!

Freya xXx