Politics? What Politics?

[Gus]

After a weekend with a bunch of my dancing mates .... had an interesting thought. For the dancers, not organisers, are they any dance politics? I'm starting to be aware that those on the 'dark side' of the business maybe get too wrapped up with some of the not-so-good aspects ... and maybe take the edge off the the fun view held by the majority ... Yup ... guilty as charged.:blush: So ... are there any politics that affect the average club dancer?

[Andy McGregor]

As a recently retired politician I can say that the world of MJ has almost as much politics as politics itself.

I've recently stepped over to the dark side and become an organiser so I suppose I've got to join in now. I remember when I worked in industry, first off I thought you could get on and ignore the politics - then I realised that you couldn't get anything done unless you also played the game:tears:

I think dance is a bit like that. There is a lot of politics. Some good, productive politics and some counter-productive. The clever bit is to sort out which is which. IMHO organisers like Franck go in for the productive type, a bit like nations having agreements to get along. In other areas organisations are at war, a bit like, well, umm, well, war... And, like all wars, both sides suffer and there are caualties - and very few tourists. Who'd take a holiday in a war zone - but THAT is what some organisers expect us to do: spend our leisure time in their own, private war zone:tears:

IMHO dancers want to dance. They don't want to hear about other organisers dirty-tricks. People are not stupid (well most of them aren't:wink: ) and will know when an organiser is playing counter-productive politics.

[Gadget]

Politics: The art or science of government or governing, especially the governing of a political entity, such as a nation, and the administration and control of its internal and external affairs.
Politics: The science of government; that part of ethics which has to do with the regulation and government of a nation or state, the preservation of its safety, peace, and prosperity, the defense of its existence and rights against foreign control or conquest, the augmentation of its strength and resources, and the protection of its citizens in their rights, with the preservation and improvement of their morals.
Politics: The management of a political party; the conduct and contests of parties with reference to political measures or the administration of public affairs; the advancement of candidates to office; in a bad sense, artful or dishonest management to secure the success of political candidates or parties; political trickery.
So do you mean "Has anything an organiser has done to/for/against your regular club affected you?" Sort of a pointless question since the management of a club is directed towards the dancers (or if it isn't, then what's the use?)

If you mean "have any organisers made any bad (in your opinion) descisions?" then I would be surprised if the answer was no.

Or do you mean "have any 'rival' organisers made any decisions that have affected your local club" again, unless there are no true "rivals", I would be unbelieving of a no answer.

Politics and management of a club are so intertwined that you cannot seperate them - is a descision political or managerial? what's the difference? The decision may be based on one, but it will affect the other.

[Gordon J Pownall]

It can be extermely frustrating where double standards exist and are applied. :mad:

Dancers (of a non-Ceroc MJ organisation) missed out on a workshop earlier this year as the (Ceroc) teacher was 'refused' permission to teach the class, (not by the franchisee but by another franchisee). :eek:

The alternative of having the demo teach the class and the (Ceroc) teacher demo was described to be 'taking the p*ss' and so the workshop never happened. :tears:

A few months later the occurence in paragraph 3 above happened with out so much as a 'by your leave'. :what:

Politics - no, they're non existent for teachers, demos or dancers..... :yeah:

OK, time to go and toe the party line for a while - is this it here...???

In fairness though (and to give balance), the times in a certain organisation are changing and slowly, the hand of welcome is being extended to those outside and vice versa.

A long slow process though - and frustrating when IMHO, most teachers (non-franchisees) teach because they enjoy teaching - it tends not to be for the money but for the sheer pleasure of dance!!!

Right - thant's my rant done - back to the thread from a dancers perspective... :drool:

[Lory]

I can't tick any of the above boxes! :(

I'm not so dumb or ignorant that I don't know what politics are :cool: BUT they've never affected, where I dance, who I talk to, who I'm friends with or my enjoyment of any particular night or event!! :clap:

[Sheepman]

Many years ago, in a time and place long forgotten by most, I heard of banning that was going on, from what I thought was the only MJ organisation in existence at the time (I was wrong). It seemed to be done in a backhanded way ( :wink: ) and for totally petty reasons.

That was when my "loyalty" to that organisation disappeared, the bannee has gone from strength to strength ever since.

Greg

[bigdjiver]

Whenever two or more people are gathered together, you are into politics - Pete Seeger
The organisers are in business, it means bread on the table, a roof over their head. They are into theory of games territory - when to compete, when to cooperate, and when competing, where to draw the limits. This could be called "Politics" . The lessons have been learned the hard way - "Jaw - jaw is better than war - war" (Winston S. Churchill) MJ needs a conference table, the equivalent of a parliament, a U.N. However much scorn we pour on these organisations life is so much better with them. This forum would be a very good place to start that process, if we could get franchisees to cooperate. A "politics" section? Franck as speaker? Time limited debates on set subjects?

Since we are social beings, it is inevitable that some of this will involve others, without a financial interest. We have ego - "our" organisation, our style, our routine, has to be better than "theirs". I have had an organiser "in my face" for attending anothers class. Very unpleasant. This should not happen.

[Gus]

I've got to admit that so far I'm gobbsmacked .... I had always thought that the majority of dancers were oblivious to politics beacause (quite rightly) they shouldn't be involved ... BUT the poll so far shows that everyone has been involved ... and thats depressing:tears: . To know its there is OK, to be affected is another.

I've managed to get myself into the centre of politics a number of times ... that because I've got myslef squarely between competing organisation and I accept that as part of the game. ... but as a dancer I've never had politics. I'm stilll welcome at (most) Ceroc venues and even get let in free by some franchisees :grin: ... and thats after I've had more than a few issues with Ceroc tm. Even the current dispute has been kept totaly on a personal basis and has not been allowed to affect the dancing public.

As BigJiver says ... its well out of order for any crew/orgnaiser to berate a dancer for going to another club or supporting another orgnanisation. Dancer should dance where they want and (hopefully) quality will win out. If politics do occur they should be kept at Orgnaiser level ... and if it does result in one organiser kicking sh*t out of another for flyering his event ... so much the better (OK ... no evidence it happened buts its a well known story and it does sound good:devil:)

[Emma]

I had always thought that the majority of dancers were oblivious to politics beacause (quite rightly) they shouldn't be involved ... BUT the poll so far shows that everyone has been involved .Well...at my time of voting only 17 people have actually said they have been involved in dance politics...and really isn't it likely that at least initially the most likely people to vote are ones who have been affected in some way, as once one is involved in politics one generally has a view...?


Even the current dispute has been kept totaly on a personal basis and has not been allowed to affect the dancing publicHmmmm sorry - not true. You will have your supporters and your detractors. They are therefore involved in your politics. I'm not saying they didn't involve themselves, but they are involved and almost certainly affected nonetheless.

[Gus]

Well...at my time of voting only 17 people have actually said they have been involved in dance politics...and really isn't it likely that at least initially the most likely people to vote are ones who have been affected in some way, as once one is involved in politics one generally has a view...? Argghh ... forgive my inaccurate language .... of the respondees all had been affected. As they say there are lies, damn lies and stats etc. Supppose I just hadnt expected that many dancers to be personaly involved.



Hmmmm sorry - not true. You will have your supporters and your detractors. They are therefore involved in your politics. I'm not saying they didn't involve themselves, but they are involved and almost certainly affected nonetheless.No true??? How? Do you actualy know anyone who has been directly involved? Even my old crew, who now mainly still crew at Nantwich, carry on the same. The only differnce is that they dont see me at Nantwich ... but I dont see how this can be categorised as them being affected by politics. As far as I'm aware, no one has been prevented from going to Northwich by Ceroc, and visa versa and most people dont even know the background story ... so I'm not sure that I agree that any dancers have been affected:confused:

[under par]

I do not believe it is politics that is at issue.

dancers on dance floors = revenue = money.

Money is the corrupter of most if not all!

Most dancers want to dance ...full stop.

You pay your money you dance. :yeah:

With the proliferation of dance venues and dance organisers you can dance every night of the week in some areas.

Most dancers do not dance every night.

Therefore where dancers dance and on which nights is important to the revenue of most organisers.

I would hope that most organisers would be up front enough to say I provide a good service and will stand by my reputation etc and encourage my clientelle to come to me as opposed to others.

But I am aware of a few organisers who give crew a hard time for dancing else where, and who ban other organisers from their venues because they are competitors.

Surely it is preferable to have as many dancers and good dancers (including other dance teachers) at any venue any time.

I have been asked a couple of times to crew at venues. I have always said NO because I dance for fun and I will pay to dance where I want, when I want, and I support as many local organisers as I can.

PS I have to ackowledge I have accepted a few free entries to venues but generally pay my way.

You will never take the "politics" out of MJ dance all the time there is money involved.

All I ask is that it does not detract from the pleasure that so many enjoy every evening all around the country. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :yeah:

[Dazzle]

I suppose you could class it as being a sad state of affairs that my very first post is on this subject, but I have to confess that it is my current pet hate topic too! :confused:

Being from Gus' area I can confirm that due to the large number of "alternative" dance organisations in the North West all after a slice of the MJ dancers' pie, profits are tight and as many of the other posters have commented, where money is involved, the worst qualities of many people bubble to the surface.

Unfortunately, I feel the real losers are the dancers. In my limited experience so far, the new beginners escape the politics for a while as they tend to remain with the venue and/or organisation at which they first start. Once they improve and enter "the circuit" and visit different places the politics is on show for all to see. I also think the level to which you are involved in the politics increases as your involvement in a venue/franchise/organiosation increases. An obvious comment I suppose, but true nevertheless. I crew at several venues and I am starting to suffer from the pressures of the politics. My passion is to dance and help others to learn and improve as I was helped to learn and improve. That is it. My passsion is being drained, my desire lost. I am feeling that I will just end up stepping back from it all! :tears:

Maybe I should stick to one venue/franchise/organisation, but I feel breadth is an invaluable qulaity in MJ and helps improve my dancing as well as those I try to help.

I thought the whole idea behind MJ was to have a fun, enjoyable, social eveing? Am I an unfortunate exception? I hope so, but fear not.

[Rachel]

I can't tick any of the above boxes! :(

I'm not so dumb or ignorant that I don't know what politics are :cool: BUT they've never affected, where I dance, who I talk to, who I'm friends with or my enjoyment of any particular night or event!! :clap: I've abstained from this poll for a long time but since, as Emma says, it's more likely that those affected will vote, I wanted to post on opinion from the other side of the fence.

I absolutely agree with Lory here - because, as a dancer (and taxi/demo/whatever) I have to say that politics have never interfered with where I'm going to go dancing and how much I enjoy it. I've never felt pressure to attend or not attend particular venues, events or weekends. Sure, I've witnessed politics going on between teachers/organisers/franchises, and I'm not saying that such bad things don't go on, but they've never directly affected me from purely a dancing point of view.

Rachel

[Gus]

Sure, I've witnessed politics going on between teachers/organisers/franchises......... but they've never directly affected me from purely a dancing point of view.

Rachel
THATS what I wanted to hear! :grin:

[Dazzle]

Now I understand what you were getting at. I may very well be aware of the politics, but it DOES NOT tell me or force me to go or not go just exactly where I WANT to dance. If the politics makes me make a choice I can guarantee they will lose me as a dancer at their venue.:angry:


As I said, I feel pressured by the politics, but it will not determine where I dance and when.

[Emma]

I feel pressured by the politicsI rest my case... :wink: :hug:

[Gordon J Pownall]

As I said, I feel pressured by the politics, but it will not determine where I dance and when.

As for most dancers....IMHO..... :worthy:

[Andy McGregor]

As I said, I feel pressured by the politics, but it will not determine where I dance and when.

Come to Hipsters, none of the other organisations like us :tears:

[Gordon J Pownall]

Come to Hipsters, none of the other organisations like us :tears:


Awww........... :hug:

[DianaS]

As BigJiver says ... its well out of order for any crew/orgnaiser to berate a dancer for going to another club or supporting another orgnanisation. Dancer should dance where they want and (hopefully) quality will win out.

I do agree with this but politics can affect even new dancers. I dance at two venues and if I'm caught at a rival venue by my teacher and I haven't been to his venue for a while he does comment on it. Also if I miss a class if I've been at his on a long run he asks me where I was, I either say skiving or tell him what I was up to. I find it flattering that he even notices my absense as his venue is very successful. However, there is evidentally politics here, even if it is acted out in a playful way with punters.

[Forte]

I ticked "what are politics" because I meant what are "dance politics". I think it is a credit to the dance classes I go to that I am unaware of any. Franck is always so positive...I have always been amazed at how generous he is letting other dance organsiations use the forum etc. It is a great attitude. :grin:

[Forte]

Having said the above...I do have one bug!!! :blush: I have been told ceroc venues are licensed so are over eighteen only. I work with teenagers and would love to encourage the sixteen plus age to come to ceroc. I have just read on the Bristol thread about some fifteen year old boy winning down there so I put my case again! :grin:

[Gus]

But I am aware of a few organisers who give crew a hard time for dancing else where, and who ban other organisers from their venues because they are competitors.

Just had to drag this old discussion up again. Heard a classic ... a demo at one club (lets say Club A) also teaches another style of dance (NOT MJ) at another venue (Club B). He's a superb dancer and has been a very popular demo at Club A ... so the manager at club A has 'sacked' him as a demo for teaching at Club B (something that he cant do at Club a):tears:. So, if my logic is right, Club B still gets this lad to teach for them and Club A dont have the benefit of this guys experience. Is it me or is this a win-win for Club B?

[Rachel]

Just had to drag this old discussion up again. Heard a classic ... a demo at one club (lets say Club A) also teaches another style of dance (NOT MJ) at another venue (Club B). He's a superb dancer and has been a very popular demo at Club A ... so the manager at club A has 'sacked' him as a demo for teaching at Club B (something that he cant do at Club a):tears:. So, if my logic is right, Club B still gets this lad to teach for them and Club A dont have the benefit of this guys experience. Is it me or is this a win-win for Club B? Well that's just ridiculous! Especially if it's a different dance style altogether!! Honestly, can't think of anything more to say about that other than it's just plain stupid, for all the obvious reasons ...
Rachel

[djtrev]

When I came into MJ it was as a result of politics within the Norwich ceroc scene.The people who wanted me to work for them had been banned from attending classes and they wanted a venue and a dj;I could supply both. We joined forces, eventually bringing in our own teachers;who I believe had also been the victims of dance politics.
The original couple are now more into swing/balboa/lindy and have moved on but the teachers and I are celebrating our 2nd birthday tonight at our present venue.
From an outsiders point of view I could not believe the pettiness of the whole thing.
But in answer to your question-politics would not influence where I chose to dance.If I am not dj'ing then I will go to whoever is organising an event whether it is Ceroc or an independant