Why hasn't Ceroc taken over the World??

[Gus]

Daft thought. Most people on this forum, and many of our friends, think that MJ is a very important and enjoyable past-time. It has obvious benefits and is something that any right minded person would get addicted to .... so why dont't they?

With all the improvements going on, all the publiciity and (apprently) all these new clubs openning up ... why is there only about a 5% yaer on year increase in numbers? Is it that the rest of the population really dont know what they are missing or are we just a sad deluded minority?:wink:

[Emma]

Is it that the rest of the population really dont know what they are missing or are we just a sad deluded minority?:wink:Yes ;)

[philsmove]

It has obvious benefits and is something that any right minded person would get addicted to .... so why dont't they?

most right minded people do get addicted

BUT

sadly there are very few right minded people :rolleyes:

[TheTramp]

Hasn't it??

Seems to have taken over my world :D

Trampy

[Andy McGregor]

Hasn't it??

Seems to have taken over my world :D

Trampy

There's a world? Sorry, I must have been out dancing when the briefing about that was done:confused:

[Chicklet]

.... so why dont't they?

With all the improvements going on, all the publiciity...

Publicity????
I know I'm not the most observant of people but have never seen anything other than that available at a dance event, smacking of preaching to the converted. (NB, got a fairly good idea WHY :wink: )

If IIIIIIII was in charge and IF I wanted to take over the world I would do a series of telly ads

1) under30s in a class
2) 30 - 50s in a class
3) over 50s in a class
4) party night showing all together
5) glitzy competition footage.

and put particular ones on during particular programmes.

C :D

[Franck]

Publicity????
I know I'm not the most observant of people but have never seen anything other than that available at a dance event, smacking of preaching to the converted. (NB, got a fairly good idea WHY :wink: )then maybe you are less observant than you thought...

We advertise a lot more than other (similar) activities, we have regular adverts in national papers and we try to get free features as often as possible with press releases etc... (the latest one was in the Sunday times and the next one will soon appear in the Sunday Post).
We advertise regularly in the Big Issue, the List magazine and other relevant publications.
We have adverts in the Yellow pages (and that's expensive :eek: )
The web is now a formidable medium for promoting classes, and Ceroc Scotland is very well placed in all relevant searches...
We busk semi-regularly in the streets of Scottish cities and teach at large corporate events / charity events etc...

All of the above already costs considerable amounts of money! I would love to be able to advertise on television, but the costs involved are astronomical, before you even consider the cost of producing a decent promotional film :sad:

As far as taking over the world is concerned, I would be happy to just take over Scotland :D

Finally, there aren't enough classes across the country and it seems most modern jive promoters are more interested in opening nights in 'existing' successful markets than to venture out and create a new market in a new city / town which is a shame because despite the initial cost and hard work, the rewards are fantastic...

[Chicklet]

Franck my friend we are in complete agreement!!
I notice ads on buses and billboards and not much else.
Not a regular (personal) newspaper buyer because I get my boring old FT in the office.
And I bow to your far superior knowledge of people's Internet habits. I hardly use it (other than for here) .

The advertising I'm thinking of is to catch the eye of people who have no idea such an organisation exists and make them go hmmm what's that? - if someone was to use a search engine to ask "what can I do tonight in Glasgow" for example, would we pop up (yes I know it's Friday and probably not but you know what I mean!!) OR would more specific key words need to be used?

And interesting, it it never even occurred to me that TV ads would be something funded by individual franchise holders, my head always had it as a centralised thing with the cost shared far more - and yes I do know how much it is and it's a pipe dream, and it'll never happen because there's NO WAY there will be agreement on what music to use for a start!! :D

[Franck]

:nice:
Billboards / buses etc... are great if you have an instantly recognizable brand / product, Ceroc isn't at the moment (and yes, it is a chicken & egg thing).
When it comes to web search engines, it is more of an art than a science. Having the forum makes a difference as I expect if someone types 'what can I do tonight in Glasgow' they will probably come upon your (and mine now) post :D

TV advertising would be funded centrally, but all central funds come from individual franchisees... no secret money stashed anywhere unfortunately.
TV advertising is regularly considered, and we are looking at a new way of promoting Ceroc at the moment, which should be available shortly...

Sorry if I seemed a bit abrupt, but I keep getting accused of not advertising enough, not promoting enough etc... and while I know that I could always do more, a huge chunk of budget and time is already spent on promoting / expanding the Ceroc world!
:flower:

[Gus]

..........and create a new market in a new city / town which is a shame because despite the initial cost and hard work, the rewards are fantastic...SINCE WHEN??? Based on no facts whatsoever (:sick: ), just observation and personal experience, at least as many new clubs fail as make it ... and most dont break the magic 100 mark.


..........Finally, there aren't enough classes across the country and it seems most modern jive promoters are more interested in opening nights in 'existing' successful markets than to venture out..Absolutely agree. Its a common problem of money grabbing or ego making. We havn't learnt the lessons of the past ... look what happened to Brighton. In the N West, things aren't so bad. A number of new clubs openning up but all seem to be trying to pull in a new crowd and seem to be far enough away from existing venues. Mind you, still waiting for a good Manchester City centre based club.:sad:

[TheTramp]

Just tried 'Dance Classes Glasgow' in Google. And the 2nd, 3rd and 4th hits were all about Ceroc :D

Trampy

[Franck]

SINCE WHEN??? Based on no facts whatsoever (:sick: ), just observation and personal experience, at least as many new clubs fail as make it ... and most dont break the magic 100 mark. Based on my own experience, I have only ever closed one night (excluding venue moves / changes of night), and even then, I feel that if I had kept it open, it would be successful today.

Many venues are opened for the reasons you quoted above (ego making / money grabbing) and this is the main reason they fail (apart from cow-boy operations). If the aim is to really get more people dancing, there is no reason why a venue won't (eventually) work.
All it takes is patience and enthusiasm! :D

[Gus]

If the aim is to really get more people dancing, there is no reason why a venue won't (eventually) work.
All it takes is patience and enthusiasm! :D
Sorry ... disagree ... some areas just dont work. Stoke has seen off 3 franchisees and 5 venues. The spendid Congleton Town hall has also seen the demise of three MJ clubs. I think Derby has defeated even the legendary Phil Roberts, and I think he's tried a number of times in Coventry to no avail.

If you are a full time Franchisee (I think there are only about 6 franchisees in that lucky position) then you have both more time and a greater incentive. If, however, you have a day job, then a major factor is simply having the time ... especially when things get tough!

[Lory]

I agree with Chicklet, I think the market will never expand significantly whilst still preaching to the converted, you just get the same Jivers, going to new venues and one persons success, is another persons failure! :sick:

This is interesting to me, as for my daughters A'level media project, she did a whole assignment based on this very subject. Her brief was to promote 'something' in the media industry, that lot's of people do and enjoy but's very under represented in the general media. Some of her friends did theirs on tattooing and body art, some on Urban freeflow (yes, I'd never heard of that either :confused: ) and Holly did hers on MJ.

She found it's like a hidden world, once inside there's an endless supply of information and advertising but it never seems to reach the outside world!

We all seem to stumble on it from word of mouth, maybe a few through busks but never because of positive articles written in magazines or local newspapers!

We need to get to the people who it never occured to, to take up dancing before! :clap:

I look in the yellow pages when I already know what I want to look for. I use search engines on the Internet to access information about subjects I already want to know about! Yes, the information is there and that's great but it's not reaching the right people! :rolleyes:

Now, if we could only get Beckam to bring a 'bit on the side' to one of our evenings, we might get a few media turn up! What do you think? :rofl:

[spindr]

Why hasn't Ceroc taken over the World??

Maybe it's because there aren't any franchises for sale? (http://www.ceroc.com/index.php?category=opportunities&subcat=15&)

SpinDr.

[Sheepman]

I look in the yellow pages when I already know what I want to look for. I use search engines on the Internet to access information about subjects I already want to know about! Yes, the information is there and that's great but it's not reaching the right people! :yeah:
I can't imagine looking in the yellow pages, or searching on the interenet to find out what's on (apart from checking Lynda's list/dance websites). But then we already know about dancing, so we're not "normal."

I think in marketing speak it is all about "triggers." What is it that persuades you to try something new? For me it was seeing other dancers (OK they were professionals) regularly dancing to live music I loved. Because dancing is about a combination of the senses, surely the most frequent trigger has to be seeing people doing it and enjoying it. Should we all be out there busking regularly?

Greg

[SwingSwingSwing]

Based on my own experience, I have only ever closed one night (excluding venue moves / changes of night), and even then, I feel that if I had kept it open, it would be successful today.


Shurely shome mishtake, Franck :)

Did you not close Falkirk twice (once at the Church, once at the Martell) and Livingston?

SwingSwingSwing

[Gus]

We all seem to stumble on it from word of mouth, maybe a few through busks but never because of positive articles written in magazines or local newspapers!

We need to get to the people who it never occured to, to take up dancing before! :clap:

OK ... challenge for you ... find a way pf describing MJ in two sentences that both reflects the reality but also "sells the sizzle" ... not easy is it? A lot of the terms we use are real "turn offs" to the active section of society ... "jive", "partner dance", "village halls" all have negative connotations. I have seem some very good marketing flyers ... but they have usualy been for Salsa. to be honest, I think the best marketing I've seen has been based on doing a "me-too" link with Salsa ... and trying to ignore the Jive aspect.

A lot of very experienced business people have tried to promote MJ. MBAs, marketing consultants have all joined the fight ... and to a large extent failed. So ... who has got that 'killer idea' thats going to make the breakthrough ... or will we still have to rely on slowy but slowly getting noticed through yellow pages, newspaper paragraphs and busks?

[Gadget]

Should we all be out there busking regularly?
I agree with the sentiment, but I think that busking is a "shotgun" approach - you're relying in at least some people walking by that will like it and take up an interest.
I think you need a more targeted appropach:
Create a few "Hit Squads" of about six people, dress them in Ceroc T-shirts, and send them out dancing to local night-clubs. Or live music events. Or road-show's. Make sure that you know when big council events are on, and see about getting a squad there. Poss also give them a few business cards that have the local classes on the back to give to folk who ask about it.

All you need is the t-shirt and to spark some curiosity - then all the existing advertising and media comes into play: people will look and the information is there for them to find.

[Franck]

Shurely shome mishtake, Franck :)

Did you not close Falkirk twice (once at the Church, once at the Martell) and Livingston?No mistake, the only venue / town I closed was Falkirk (still regretting it and might open again).
I moved from the church hall to the Martell, and then had to close it as the pressures of keeping existing night (Edinburgh and Glasgow) combined with the new (loss making) nights: Aberdeen and Dundee were too great to sustain.

Livingston was opened and closed by Scot.

[Chicklet]

OK ... challenge for you ... find a way pf describing MJ in two sentences ?

do it in two pictures instead - picture paints a thousand etc...

Still think the bus and billboard posters (I'm letting the TV lie for now :wink: ) is the way to go if COMPLETELY new punters are wanted.

Picture driving along and seeing a billboard with a (for example) larger than life Bill n Fran n Denise in one of their Dinner Suit n Bras ensembles with a tagline - Guess what these people do on a Tuesday night?

Woiuldn't you be at least a little bit intrigued??????????

(ok we need to have a whipround to get Bill a haircut first)

[ChrisA]

"Hit Squads" of about six people, dress them in Ceroc T-shirts, and send them out dancing to local night-clubs.
Great idea. :eek:

Hope their life insurance is paid up. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Chris

[SwingSwingSwing]

No mistake, the only venue / town I closed was Falkirk (still regretting it and might open again).
I moved from the church hall to the Martell, and then had to close it as the pressures of keeping existing night (Edinburgh and Glasgow) combined with the new (loss making) nights: Aberdeen and Dundee were too great to sustain.

Livingston was opened and closed by Scot.


Ahh, I didn't realise that the church to Martell's was a venue move. I seem to remember being told that there was a significant gap between the church venue closing and the Martell venue opening. Admittedly, this was before my time as I only started at the Martell.

And to answer to the question in the thread's title :- Because 'Swing is King' :devil:

SwingSwingSwing

[Gus]

Create a few "Hit Squads" of about six people, dress them in Ceroc T-shirts, and send them out dancing to local night-clubs.
Been there, got the t-shirts, passed out the business cards .... got zip :sad: No ... tell a lie ... one guy turned up with a free pass we'd handed out ... twelve months previously??

Sorry ... its a good idea but didnt seem to work for us. We went on a regular basis to the local Brannigans, local night club ... even when I was dancing in town I'd be handing out cards. Loads of people were interested, asked where they do this great dnace ... and never showed up at the club. Somewhere there is a missing link between Jo Public liking the dance and them dragging themselves down to a club night.

[Gus]

And to answer to the question in the thread's title :- Because 'Swing is King' :devil:

SwingSwingSwing
And the number of people who do Swing in Scotland is ?? versus the number of people who do MJ :whistle:

Question. How does Swing attract new dancers? I would say that its visual impression to most people is of being more complex and to less common music. So do you get punters off the street or do you rely on people coming out of MJ?

[spindr]

Well, I guess a couple of questions that come to mind are:

1). How many school teachers are able to teach Ceroc to their classes?

I'm guessing the answer is zero? I had one teacher email me at AfterFive, how *she* could teach her class to Jive -- suggesting she undergo the CTA seemed a trifle overkill -- I recommended she looked at the HowToJive video/DVD or the Ceroc DVD.

2). How many university Ceroc clubs are there?

Again, guessing but I'd imagine none -- though I think Bristol University has a LeRoc club. D'you leave leaflets at Freshers' Fairs? D'you busk there? I'd have thought Student Unions *might* be ideal venues -- at least you might get a cheap pint.

3). Do you leave leaflets in "traditional" dance venues? (Especially municipal ones). Do you do demonstrations at "traditional" dance venues, and events?

SpinDr.

P.S. Do you charge less than £7? One venue I go to has just put their prices up :(

[Andy McGregor]

We all seem to stumble on it from word of mouth, maybe a few through busks but never because of positive articles written in magazines or local newspapers!

I have one relevant experience by a local organiser. They had a reporter from the biggest local Brighton newspaper visit on a Monday night, do the lesson and take pictures: she then wrote a glowing piece about her night with a massive picture. The whole piece spanned 2 pages and made the night look fabulous. The Monday after the article was published the organiser was expecting bus-loads of beginners and called up everyone to become locum taxis for the night. We had ONE new person:tears: But I had a brilliant night with the other people who'd been roped in to help:clap:

Having started my own night I've been very interested in what prompts people to start dancing. I've been asking around and it seems to be mostly word-of-mouth. However, if we were to continue to do what has gone before we will continue to have the results we are currently getting. If we're to take the world over we need to do something new - I just don't know what that is:confused:

[SwingSwingSwing]

And the number of people who do Swing in Scotland is ?? versus the number of people who do MJ :whistle:

Question. How does Swing attract new dancers? I would say that its visual impression to most people is of being more complex and to less common music. So do you get punters off the street or do you rely on people coming out of MJ?

Yes, more people do MJ than Swing in Scotland. But worldwide more people do Swing than MJ.

'How does Swing attract new dancers' ? The same way other dances attract dancers, people like how it looks, they see dancers having fun and enjoying themselves. I don't think the music being "less common" bears on peoples decision. Salsa-type music, Tango-type music, Scottish Country Dance-type music are all "less common" than the music MJ is danced. Whether people like the music is more of a factor in their overall decision to try a particular dance form.

Yes, we get brand new dancers off the street, who haven't done any kind of dancing before. And we get people who have other dance experience (MJ, Jive, Ballroom, Salsa). I don't think that's any different from any other dance form.

SwingSwingSwing

[foxylady]

:yeah:

I think in marketing speak it is all about "triggers." What is it that persuades you to try something new? For me it was seeing other dancers (OK they were professionals) regularly dancing to live music I loved. Because dancing is about a combination of the senses, surely the most frequent trigger has to be seeing people doing it and enjoying it. Should we all be out there busking regularly?

Greg

Two things occur to me. I have personally been responsible for 7 new ceroc devotees in the last 2 years, 3 other people who I tried to introduce to it didn't get the buzz.

Of the people I have introduced not one of them would have come without a serious amount of pestering, infact one took almost the whole 2 years to persuade and on the first night tuned to me and said 'this is such fun why didn't you make me come before?'!!!!!! (She has now introduced 4 new regulars).

Somehow seeing other people doing it doesn't get people going as much as actually doing it. Other than spreading the word and involving people we know how else do you make people make that first step.

The other things I would really like to see happen (and would quite like to get involved in happening despite not being CTA trained) is getting partner dancing back into schools. I think its a skill that died out largely with our parents generation, and whilst some of us discover the joys of partner dancing for ourselves if schools ran it as part of physical education we could be building up dancers for the future.

Ceroc/MJ is ideal for that as its danceable to todays music. Other partner dances aren't (as easily) and maybe less readily welcomed.
I teach girls (aged 9-10) to jive and they love doing it, enjoy dancing to the music they choose, laugh them selves silly trying to do it to Busted which is far to fast, and hopefully later on will be prompted to take it up for themselves... But getting into older groups and mixed groups of kids would be a very good way. They already do this in Australia I believe.

[Forte]

I think you need a more targeted appropach:
Create a few "Hit Squads" of about six people, dress them in Ceroc T-shirts, and send them out dancing to local night-clubs. Or live music events. Or road-show's. Make sure that you know when big council events are on, and see about getting a squad there. Poss also give them a few business cards that have the local classes on the back to give to folk who ask about it.

All you need is the t-shirt and to spark some curiosity - then all the existing advertising and media comes into play: people will look and the information is there for them to find.


I agree with Gadget. Have any of us ever been brave enough to dance MJ in a night club when everyone else is single dancing? Are ever any of us in night clubs or are we all locked into our parallel universe of ceroc venues?

[philsmove]

Ask “the man in the street” what Salsa, Tango or Rock and Roll is and they has a pretty good idea

But ask them to describe Ceroc and they cant



Many people assume Roc has something to with Rock and Roll

I wonder if Salsa, Tango or Ballroom would have become popular if someone had registered them as a trademark

It would not have stopped people dancing or teaching but would have to find another name

[Lory]

Having started my own night I've been very interested in what prompts people to start dancing. I've been asking around and it seems to be mostly word-of-mouth. However, if we were to continue to do what has gone before we will continue to have the results we are currently getting. If we're to take the world over we need to do something new - I just don't know what that is:confused:
This may be of interest to you then......

Holly's research involved getting views and feedback on how much people of all age groups, income brackets and ethnic diversities, knew about MJ and were open to the idea of giving it a try.

They interviewed kids at junior and senior schools, collage kids and adult education centres, people in libraries, sport centres and large office blocks.

But by far, the most interested were Mum's in playgrounds! They were in an environment they shared with 'new' friends, had time to listen and where they open to new idea's.
It became apparent that for most of them their children were getting to the stage where they 'could' be left with a baby-sitter for short periods, their old lifestyle and social life had diminished, (they didn't feel as comfortable clubbing as they used to) the thought that appealed the most was having a fun night out, in a safe environment but having added health benefits was a large incentive as most said they would like to be fitter! Most of the women fell between the ages 25-35 and over 80% of them had partners! :clap:

So. why not organise a busk at 3.20 in the playground of your local primary school! (promise to give the kids *ceroc* orange lollies after, to keep the mums there till you've finished :rofl: )

BTW. Sport centres came second!

[Bardsey]

There's a world? Sorry, I must have been out dancing when the briefing about that was done:confused:

Yeah, we were stripped off, enjoying a Pimms at the time, Andy :rofl:

[Gadget]

(with relevance to the "does music define dance" thread)
To me it's not "Modern Jive": It's just Dancing. MJ is just a convenient label so that it's not confused with any other form of dance.

Wanna know how to dance? Take up MJ. It dosn't matter what music is played, who is there, what everyone else is doing, or even what you are doing... just have fun, and dance.:waycool:

I've got the music for a MJ trailer bouncing round my head with snipits of lyrics taken from songs about dancing... "Hey mr DJ, put a record on; I wanna dance with ma baby","Every body dance now!","Sliide to the left","put on my red shoes and dance the blues","Geddup off that thing, and dance till you feel bedda","dance, dance, dance. all i wanna do is dance",... pet project for Funky Si?
Hmmm; someone copyright this image - a couple dancing, over-sized for the page, slightly blurred with movement, washed out colours; lots of lyrics (like above) randomly thrown accross the image in fonts to suit the music, again muted pastels or shades of grey; larger lettering for a slogan with a strong colour - simple 1 to 5 word phrase ("Dance?","Pure dance addiction"...) and a logo with venue details or small print in the same dark colors.
Would probably do an inverse version as well - perhaps a 2 sided flyer.

Anyone in advertising want to employ me? :grin:

[Lory]

Hmmm; someone copyright this image - a couple dancing, over-sized for the page, slightly blurred with movement, washed out colours; lots of lyrics (like above) randomly thrown accross the image in fonts to suit the music, again muted pastels or shades of grey; larger lettering for a slogan with a strong colour - simple 1 to 5 word phrase ("Dance?","Pure dance addiction"...) and a logo with venue details or small print in the same dark colors.
Would probably do an inverse version as well - perhaps a 2 sided flyer.

Anyone in advertising want to employ me? :grin: Just hand a few out in the school playground at 3-20 and your onto a winner! :clap:

[foxylady]

This may be of interest to you then......



But by far, the most interested were Mum's in playgrounds! They were in an environment they shared with 'new' friends, had time to listen and where they open to new idea's.
It became apparent that for most of them their children were getting to the stage where they 'could' be left with a baby-sitter for short periods, their old lifestyle and social life had diminished, (they didn't feel as comfortable clubbing as they used to) the thought that appealed the most was having a fun night out, in a safe environment but having added health benefits was a large incentive as most said they would like to be fitter! Most of the women fell between the ages 25-35 and over 80% of them had partners! :clap:

So. why not organise a busk at 3.20 in the playground of your local primary school! (promise to give the kids *ceroc* orange lollies after, to keep the mums there till you've finished :rofl: )

BTW. Sport centres came second!


mmmm.... but how many could persuade their partners to come !!!!

[Gadget]

At the danger of being sent upstairs, They've all got kids, so I would presume all of them ! :blush:

[foxylady]

At the danger of being sent upstairs, They've all got kids, so I would presume all of them ! :blush:
Reducing the level even further, given they have all got kids, I would presume they all could (and did), but probably wouldn't bother now !! :wink:

[bigdjiver]

Sorry ... disagree ... some areas just dont work. Stoke has seen off 3 franchisees and 5 venues. The spendid Congleton Town hall has also seen the demise of three MJ clubs. I think Derby has defeated even the legendary Phil Roberts, and I think he's tried a number of times in Coventry to no avail.

If you are a full time Franchisee (I think there are only about 6 franchisees in that lucky position) then you have both more time and a greater incentive. If, however, you have a day job, then a major factor is simply having the time ... especially when things get tough! Coventry and Derby are at the upper extremities of the Ceroc Central area. I asked about Coventry and was told that the venue, teacher travel and availability were all problems. In the case of Derby there are two Nights in Nottingham. Teacher travel was one problem, and he found he was competing with himself as the Derby people kept migrating to an allegedly superior night in Nottingham.

[Demota]

My tuppenceworth : hey fellow dancers! don'chca like the exclusivity of being able to do something which the majority of the proletariat can't (but secretly want to) do? I'm happy to be part of an exclusive club in which just about every body knows everybody else or at least on a nodding acquaintance. The swing scene is even "cosier" without being cliquey and has a healthy interaction with ceroc. The day swing/ceroc becomes too common I think I'll have a go at that Appalachian clog dancing which I've always had a sneaky admiration for....

[bigdjiver]

My tuppenceworth : hey fellow dancers! don'chca like the exclusivity of being able to do something which the majority of the proletariat can't (but secretly want to) do? The majority of the proles don't know it exists, and most would be able to do it.

I'm happy to be part of an exclusive club in which just about every body knows everybody else or at least on a nodding acquaintance. I hope it never becomes "exclusive".


The swing scene is even "cosier" It does not matter how many people take it up, it can still be cosy. There are four jive/swing venues/ organisations within walking distance of me, and they all have their own clientele, character and degree of cosiness, with only minor interaction.

[Andy McGregor]

I hope it never becomes "exclusive".


I don't think we could be described as "exclusive", but I think that MJ is a bit like a village. Whenever you pop into the "village" you always bump into someone you know :kiss:

In this context the "village" is any MJ club within 50 miles (maybe more) of your regular club.

[Demota]

I hope it never becomes "exclusive".

Oops! Maybe "exclusive" was the wrong word but in a way it is "inclusive" of those that have the chutzpah to get off their backsides and struggle through the initial learning process and the stigma of being labelled a cissy by Fat Bellied mates that reckon sinking 7 pints of lager is a more "manly" pursuit. I would say that the predominant factor in stopping guys and ladies taking up MJ is embarrassment.

[HeatherX]

Ceroc will never be like ballroom dancing was in the 1920s to the 1960s - that is, something you had to learn to do in order to have any sort of social life where you could meet the opposite sex outside of work, school and church!! Once popular music changed, dancing changed, and you didn't need to learn anything any more. Ballroom dancing is now a minority interest, persued solely by skilled aficionados, almost as a sport (medals, certificates and competitions are BIG in ballroom), and people who learnt it first time round, that is, mainly people over 60.

Press coverage of existing venues is nice, and gratifying for us, but I don't think any single article will be responsible for more than one or two people even coming through the door.

Getting new people relies on existing dancers bringing their friends, and heavy, targetted publicity (paid for and non-paid for) that keeps up the pressure over several weeks at the start, and maintains it forever, until you are literally turning people away.

This needs a lot of time and energy on the part of franchisees and members.

[Andy McGregor]

Oops! Maybe "exclusive" was the wrong word but in a way it is "inclusive" of those that have the chutzpah to get off their backsides and struggle through the initial learning process and the stigma of being labelled a cissy by Fat Bellied mates that reckon sinking 7 pints of lager is a more "manly" pursuit.

I often marvel at this. One of my Rugby playing, hard drinking friends was making fun of my 'new' interest in becoming a dancing cissy* - I compared it to his Rugby.

Rugby - Keeps you fit: played with a loads of muddy guys who try to squash you on a cold wet field: then drinking to oblivion and setting fire to your flatus:sick:

Dancing - Keeps you fit: played with loads of sexy women in lycra who wiggle and smile at you.


He now dances in Croydon:clap:


*compared to my previous long-term, fairly manly, hobbies of Kung-Fu, Tae Kwon-Do and Fencing - although I've always thought of Fencing as quite camp:wink:

[philsmove]

Ballroom dancing is now a minority interest, persued solely by skilled aficionados



Well I wonder what ballroom "aficionados" say about us, on their forum

[philsmove]

OK ... challenge for you ... find a way pf describing MJ in two sentences that both reflects the reality but also "sells the sizzle" ... not easy is it?

I think the tramp has answered this



Dancing - Keeps you fit: played with loads of sexy women in lycra who wiggle and smile at you :clap:

Have to confess this is what addicted me

[HeatherX]

Well I wonder what ballroom "aficionados" say about us, on their forum


I dunno....they probably look down on us because of our worrying lack of make up and hair-spray.

And that's just the men boom boom. :grin:

[Andy McGregor]

And that's just the men boom boom. :grin:

..some of them, anyway:waycool:

[White Knuckle Ride]

With all the improvements going on, all the publiciity and (apprently) all these new clubs openning up ... why is there only about a 5% yaer on year increase in numbers? Is it that the rest of the population really dont know what they are missing

Methinks it's the trinity of names. We have the Ceroc brand name. Leroc, Modern Jive, French Jive (Ok that's four!) When I first started I thought they were all different and I still hear people getting confused to this day. Further, in Modern Jive, the noun tends to overpower the adjective to the extent that when I first heard it I thought it was some sort of Grease tribute thing. Compare it all with Salsa that has a very positive name.
The times have moved on and we seem to be dancing stolen goods that have been unashamedly swiped from other dance formats so the parameters between different dances are more like grey areas than firm lines. Think p'haps we all need to agree on a common name n'est pas?

[Paul F]

Well I wonder what ballroom "aficionados" say about us, on their forum

Surprisingly (for me anyway) most of the other people I speak to through my other dance interests (including ballroom) seem to quite like MJ. Ok, when I say 'like' I guess,in cases, it could be more along the lines of 'tolerate' but the feedback is not entirely negative.
There are those I chat to on other forums (sorry Franck) that see it as 'not really dancing' but they are few and far between. Most I have spoken to see dancing as an expression of self. Whether a person chooses to do it via a structured examination of movement or by more lenient, less restricted, instruction is up to them. Either way they are are partaking in an activity in a manner that suits the individual.
:eek: sorry, going deeply psychological here :)

As for the discussion on the term MJ. In my opinion this restricts interest immediately to a wide demographic. One of the key things to cement into peoples minds in marketing is a suitable 'name'. People will then, as we all know, associate the name with the style. Examples are things like Kleenex in the states. Doesnt matter what brand of tissue they are stood in front of they will say "pass me a kleenex". Same things with things like velcro etc.

It looks like Ceroc have built up this association with the name so I guess one of the first bulding blocks are there - The universal term.

[Andy McGregor]

As for the discussion on the term MJ. In my opinion this restricts interest immediately to a wide demographic.

I think this is right. If I tell people I jive they know exactly what I mean - and they usually see jive in a positive light. To those that say dancing is cissy I point out that Hells Angels jive and you wouldn't call one of them a cissy - I think I'd call them 'sir':sick:

I have a famous story of renaming/marketing to tell which might help explain what I'm proposing (I might get the finer detail wrong as I heard this story a long time ago).

Many years ago there was a bed making company called Staples on a corner in Edgware Road in North London. I understand that the factory was originally just an number in the road. The owner thought up a way of increasing company awareness: he paid the bus fare for his staff to travel to work so long as they asked the conductor (remember them?) for a ticket for "Staples Corner" - which at the time didn't exist as an address. It wasn't long before the conductors were calling it Staples Corner, then it was written on the front of the buses and eventually found it's way onto signs, maps, etc.

I think we could steal the word "jive" and use it to describe what we do. If we had a few hundred thousand people saying they jive the name would stick. Alternatively, someone could come up with another name and get everyone saying that with total confidence. Any suggestions?

[philsmove]

It looks like Ceroc have built up this association with the name so I guess one of the first bulding blocks are there - The universal term.

Yes but CeRoc like Kleenex is a registered trademark. When the people down ‘ere in Bristol stared teaching CeRoc they got into problems as they did not have a franchise :blush:

So they change the name to LeRoc


LeRoc is not a trademark. Anyone can use it, but it not well know outside of the South West

[TheTramp]

It looks like Ceroc have built up this association with the name so I guess one of the first bulding blocks are there - The universal term.We've already had this discussion....

It's nothing like 'Kleenex'.

Yeah, in certain areas of the country (London, Scotland, Midlands?), most (though by no means all, even in those areas) people go to 'Ceroc'. In other areas, people go to 'LeRoc', or 'MoJive', or 'Blitz', or other local names. Ceroc is not even close to being a 'universal term', and will never be so....

Trampy

[TheTramp]

LeRoc is not a trademark. Anyone can use it, but it not well know outside of the South WestOr the South East (Brighton area), or some people in Scotland who dance at LeRoc venues. And probably other areas too....

Trampy

[Paul F]

By universal term I was a bit misleading, sorry . What I meant was a term not directly related to a 'style' of dancing , in this case, MJ. I didnt mean universal as in everyone uses the term.
I was essentially getting at the fact that, as a marketing strategy, it is nearly always advised to use a (cant think of appropriate word) word that is unique to that company and that people will learn to recognise.
My claim that Ceroc have got that is because
- it is widely used
- it is taken as a verb in many contexts and not as a noun.

I have never heard anyone say I am going to MoJive or Blitz etc (due respect to those names) as a verb.

[TheTramp]

Have you ever talked to people who go to those venues exclusively?

I've heard plenty of people say that....

Trampy

[Lou]

I have never heard anyone say I am going to MoJive or Blitz etc (due respect to those names) as a verb.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Apart from the fact it's a noun, not a verb (but I'm not the grammar police!) I'd be quite happy to say I dance Ceroc TM, but your guys won't let me! :wink:

[MartinHarper]

I like *roc as a generic name online, but it's not so good offline. :)