Teachers or Entertainers

[Gus]

OK ... things are WAAYYYY too quiet here at the moment ... so about time to throw in a slightly contentious theme.

The motion before the house is,

Ceroc teachers are not teachers but entertainers .... there to impart a little dance knowledge but mainly there to keep the masses entertained for half and hour or so

The basis for this proposition?

1) a conversation with a teacher with a rival modern jive organisation. She was firmly of the view that its not possible to TEACH Jo Public how to dance porficiently using the current mass model ..... there are too many intracacies to be able to really teach people how to dance.

2) a depressing review of dance clubs over the last two years seems to indicate that most of the current good dancers were the good dancers from two years ago ... i.e. very few dancers have come through ... and most of them that have appeared have come from other dance styles, e.g. Salsa, line dancing

3) Ceroc teacher training puts a lot of emphasis on entertaining the class .... someone once compared it to being a cheerleader.

So ..... can Ceroc teachers in class be expected to teach people to get much past beginner standard ... should they or is the fun factor what its all about. Got to admit that personaly I'm not sure ....

Comments?

[Franck]

Teachers are there to teach primarily, and indeed they do.
Your separation of teaching and entertaining is flawed in any event, they are not mutually exclusive and in fact the best teachers are the ones who can do both, so that people feel they are learning effortlessly.

I would also disagree strongly that the emphasis on the Ceroc training is on anything but the teaching, as demonstrated by Lisa who has worked so hard over the last 3 months, learning moves, words, formats and countless key / style points for the Beginners training course, culminating in a very demanding technical test (on all the moves) and Class format test (which included entertaining your class, but also rhythm, class interaction and understanding of the moves from a woman's and from a man's perspective!

All of it, including the entertaining bits were about making her and all the other Ceroc teachers better at teaching Ceroc, not providing an entertaining night to a passive audience!

So my vote goes to teachers first (though I don't mind a bit of entertaining myself :nice: )

Franck.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
1) a conversation with a teacher with a rival modern jive organisation. She was firmly of the view that its not possible to TEACH Jo Public how to dance porficiently using the current mass model ..... there are too many intracacies to be able to really teach people how to dance.

2) a depressing review of dance clubs over the last two years seems to indicate that most of the current good dancers were the good dancers from two years ago ...While I appreciate that you are playing Devil's advocate to get things heated up :devil: I'll take the bait and answer your other points.

Point 1: My experience is that Ceroc is in fact very good at teaching anyone (especially "Joe Public" with 2 left feet), how to dance.

Point 2: This is your opinion, and indeed you have already expressed it forcefully on another thread! My view is that you formed a very narrow concept of what a good dancer is based on the dancers you were impressed by when you starting looking at and learning more style! As a result, your perception already reflects a generational gap (not based on age, but on how long you have been dancing / competing).
From the last Ceroc Champs, I spotted plenty of fabulous dancers on the floor, starting new trends and inspiring everyone watching. I don't know their names, but there was lots of new stuff coming forward.
In particular, I noticed that while 5/6 years ago the new stuff was inspired by Ballroom and Lindy, 2/3 years ago, the trend was more hip/hop & Ballet (as examplified by Dan & Lisa). This year, the trend felt much more Bluesy and R&B...

New trends, but overall a natural progression in a dance as versatile and open to new ideas as Ceroc.

Franck.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck
I would also disagree strongly that the emphasis on the Ceroc training is on anything but the teaching, as demonstrated by Lisa who has worked so hard over the last 3 months, learning moves, words, formats and countless key / style points for the Beginners training course,
Franck. Firstly ... I would never take anything away from the Ceroc teacher training. As I've said on many occaisions, I belive it to be withour peer and anyone who manages to get through it all is to be lauded (by the way, big congratulations Lisa).

However .... despite all the technical aspects ... I remember from my own training that there is an element of enetertainment .... not that that in itself is an issue ... but I have seen cases where the entertinment or teachers own ego takes the class to a level where the dancers stop learning.

I've recently seen a situation, not a Ceroc class, where the teacher has taught a class so far beyond the dancers abilities that it can onlt be entertainment.

The proof has to be in the end result. I know a number of teachers who have given up the usual class structure because of frustrations in the lack of progression in the dancers. We follow a well defined process, we 'teach' to a high standard ... BUT there are few dancers coming though to advanced levels ... or even strong intermediates. WHY? Is it the type of people we attract to Ceroc or is it that the Modern Jive teaching model is just not appropriate for producing good dancers.

The reality will be clear at the Championships. How many good dancers will there be that can attest their development just to the class structure?

Sorry to be so negative about this but over the last few months I've been dismayed at the lack of really good dancers around compared to the South East. For my own club I was quite prepared to put it down to me being a lousy teacher ..... but I've seen few other clubs that are churning out great dancers.:sad:

Maybe thats not what its all about ... maybe people want to come to Ceroc just to have a laugh and just get to a reasonable standard ... if so, lets accept that and plan accordingly.

Franck ... trust me, I'd love to be wrong about this. If someone can prove to me that the teaching model really does work ... great!

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck
From the last Ceroc Champs, I spotted plenty of fabulous dancers on the floor, starting new trends and inspiring everyone watching. I don't know their names, but there was lots of new stuff coming forward.

In particular, I noticed that while 5/6 years ago the new stuff was inspired by Ballroom and Lindy, 2/3 years ago, the trend was more hip/hop & Ballet (as examplified by Dan & Lisa). This year, the trend felt much more Bluesy and R&B...

Overall, new trends, but overall a natural progression in a dance as versatile and open to new ideas as Ceroc.

Franck. Good point ... but doesn't that back up what I'm saying? These trends are external to Ceroc and NOT being developed from within the Ceroc teaching framework. Dan and Lisa's contrinution has come, and to a large extent, gone. We've incorporated about 4 of Dan's moves into the Ceroc moves syllabus but havn't been able to incorporate his style .....

I was at a franchisee meeting 2 years ago when I much respected Franchisee and teacher proposed the point that there comes a stage in a dancers development when Ceroc lessons no longer address their needs ... a moot point. The question is is that point at 6 years or 6 months.
My view is that you formed a very narrow concept of what a good dancer is based on the dancers you were impressed by when you starting looking at and learning more style!Ouch! Hurtfull. Me , narrow minded? How can you say that? OK .... yeah, I've probably got my own view about what is a good dancer (a whole new thread opportunity there) but my basic definition is someone who has got past through throwing moves at the music and has progresed to interpreting the music. Are there many dancers at this standard about? (PS .... thats not a rhetorical question ... I really don't know).

Come to think fo it, where's DaveB? He can usualy be relied on to have a sage contribution on subjects like this.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
Firstly ... I would never take anything away from the Ceroc teacher training. As I've said on many occaisions, I belive it to be withour peer and anyone who manages to get through it all is to be lauded (by the way, big congratulations Lisa).I did not think you were, but I was keen to clarify your statement :wink:
Originally posted by Gus
The reality will be clear at the Championships. How many good dancers will there be that can attest their development just to the class structure?I think you miss the point a bit. We do teach people how to dance at all classes, and pretty well in my opinion.
What you are describing is whether we prepare dancers for competitions, and in this I believe you are right, and I reckon this is not a bad thing.
One of the things that moved Ballroom dancing from being huge to a fairly limited attendance was the emphasis they started putting on competition. In particular, all their teachers tended to be medallists at a competition, and therefore were able to teach only what they knew best, how to compete (I realise this is a generalisation and that there are excellent teachers in Ballroom as in other dances).
As a result, they became very selective, concentrating on the dancers showing the most promise at the expense of everyone else.

I would be very concerned if Ceroc classes started down that road, and this is partly why I am not a big fan of competitions in general. Good fun and entertaining they usually are, but the minute we start taking them seriously and changing dramatically the way we approach teaching based on individual results (or lack of them), alarm bells ring :really:

Franck.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
Good point ... but doesn't that back up what I'm saying? These trends are external to Ceroc and NOT being developed from within the Ceroc teaching framework. Well to put the shoe on the other foot, the creativity arose in Ceroc, where those dancers were able to incorporate bits of other dances to create something new... Are there that many changes in Salsa or Ballroom or Lindy? There might be, I don't know enough to say, but up to a point, we all follow the music and develop with the current musical trends and inspiration.
Saying that the trends are external to Ceroc is the opposite of what is happening and doing Modern Jive in general an injustice. Ceroc allows dancers the freedom to create and experiment with rhythms, steps and moves much more than any other dance. Partly because we do not focus on footwork, but also because we play a wide variety of music and finally because we do not lay down rules as to what is acceptable or not!


Originally posted by Gus
Ouch! Hurtfull. Me , narrow minded? How can you say that? OK .... yeah, I've probably got my own view about what is a good dancer (a whole new thread opportunity there) but my basic definition is someone who has got past through throwing moves at the music and has progresed to interpreting the music. Are there many dancers at this standard about? (PS .... thats not a rhetorical question ... I really don't know).Ok, I apologize, no offence meant :nice: I did not say you were narrow-minded, but that your definition of a 'good dancer' was narrow :wink:
This is something I feel strongly about, as I truly believe that most people are good dancers (honest!). As long as they have learnt a few moves, can lead (or follow) them without hurting their partners and appear to be enjoying themselves, then I consider them brilliant dancers!
As to dancers who can interpret the music, there are quite a lot, but of course as men, we rarely experience being led by them! :really:
That sort of level mostly comes from years of experience, and many a night dancing to the same tunes :wink:
Teachers can influence and possibly accelerate the process (especially at workshops), but overall, it takes a while, so only those who have been dancing for long enough and still attend classes (a lot of people stop once they have learnt the basics and got to the level I described above), will get there...

Franck.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck
This is something I feel strongly about, as I truly believe that most people are good dancers (honest!). As long as they have learnt a few moves, can lead (or follow) them without hurting their partners and appear to be enjoying themselves, then I consider them brilliant dancers!
As to dancers who can interpret the music, there are quite a lot, but of course as men, we rarely experience being led by them! :really:

Franck.
Fair comment ... I think that the difference in our opinions comes down to our own definitions of what 'Good' is. I think my own defnition of 'good' depends on whether I'm talking about someone I enjoy dancing with or someone I like to watch ... there can be a big difference.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
I think that the difference in our opinions comes down to our own definitions of what 'Good' is. I think my own defnition of 'good' depends on whether I'm talking about someone I enjoy dancing with or someone I like to watch ... there can be a big difference. Very true!
Ceroc is all about dancing though, not a spectator sport, and I will keep fighting to keep it that way!:nice:

Franck.

[CJ]

You guessed it. Post put up somewhere between 12 and 2 am with a flashing backside...........CJ rant on the way!!

I'll try to keep this civilised.

Firstly, I can't help but feel that this thread, and one or two others, is around because of the Scottish "competition." My flesh crawls every announcement time in class because of that word. If HQ hadn't been so up tight about the word "championship", then maybe we wouldn't have these issues quite so frequently or strongly. Could it not be a "Scottish Ceroc Extravaganza with some prizes to be won and lots of money going to charity"??

Is Ceroc about competition, winning, ego-massaging, kudos or respect? Or is it about, em, fun, perhaps? About people who always knew they had 2 left feet manging to jiggle in some sort of time to the music?

I've always felt Ceroc is the gateway to couple dancing: it has no footwork (to speak of) and can be done to ANY song with 4 beats in the bar between approx 100-180 BPM. Most people who want to be "good" move on to a more specialised dance form as influenced by what they enjoy about ceroc: Lindy, salsa, WCS, etc.

As raised above, the "best" dancers have usually come to Ceroc via another dance form. Yeah, we all would like Lobster thermodore, but there's no problem having steak and chips is there?

If you want to have a good night, with varied music, learn a couple of new moves and dance with lots of different people who, on the main, are also enjoying themselves; then go to a ceroc night because you'll have a great time.

If you want to seriously improve, go to a bloody workshop.... it's what they are designed for.

"Ceroc teachers are not teachers but entertainers .... " Aren't all the best teachers entertaining? Think about the stuff you remember from school. I know guys, that's more thinking for some than others!! Anyway, the lessons you most likely remember are the ones put to you in an entertaining way. Does that mean teachers should give up their day job and move into tv? Some how, I think not.

Taxi for CJ!!

[Gus]

Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
Firstly, I can't help but feel that this thread, and one or two others, is around because of the Scottish "competition

Is Ceroc about competition, winning, ego-massaging, kudos or respect? Or is it about, em, fun, perhaps? About people who always knew they had 2 left feet manging to jiggle in some sort of time to the music?CJ dear boy ... 'fraid that, this time at least, you may be mistaken about the source of the thread.

Personaly don't give a monkey's about the Champs being a major competition ot ego event ... don't think anyone I've spoken to does either .... thought it was mainly for fun. being sociable and helping a good cause. The reason for the thread was to raise the question of the BALANCE between entertaining and teaching.

Franck has made some very good points, but my 'rival' dance teacher also has. She is less convinecd about what you can realisticaly teach to a large class using teh current format. My point was to say that if you define yourself as a teacher, then like any other teacher you have to judge your success by how 'good' your students are. There is an argument (and I'm not saying I subscribe to it) is that the mark of a good ceroc teacher is how many people ENJOY the night. Think that is in line with what you've said ... but then is that 'teaching'

Please don't take it seriously ... its only an exchange of views.

[filthycute]

OK i don't know Jack about teaching so i'm not even gonna try and jump on that bandwagon. However i will jump on a few things that got my attention that are close to me.


Originally posted by Franck
As a result, they became very selective, concentrating on the dancers showing the most promise at the expense of everyone else.

Franck.

As opposed to constantly getting more and more beginners through the door and completely ignoring the more promising dancers?


Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
If you want to seriously improve, go to a bloody workshop

Why does it always come down to "If you want to be a good dancer then your obviously a snob and you can't have any fun"? Why is it that it's always frowned upon when you want to improve? I've noticed this on lots of threads.

I'm sorry but i'd love to be a better dancer but feel i just don't have as much opportunity in ceroc. Thats not to say i don't love my ceroc. I wouldn't give it up, but i just get frustrated at the lack of support for the more promising dancers.

Sorry to say but there's a lot of things i have to back Gus on. I've seen how hard he works to improve his dancing, then passing it on to his crew, then onto the dance floor, for beginners through to the promising. I'm not saying for 1 minute that ceroc teachers don't work hard.....i know how pressing all the training is...i watched Elaine go through it from start to finish. The teachers do a great job...thats without a doubt, but i feel it's a case of ....

"We can teach you to dance from beginner and improve through intermediate. We can even teach you to be a teacher, but if you want to become a really good dancer then we can't help."

I have loads of fun at my classes, always got a smile on, will dance with anyone and still have a great time, so why am i worried that if i became a better dancer i'll be an outcast?

filthycute x x

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
Most people who want to be "good" move on to a more specialised dance form as influenced by what they enjoy about ceroc: Lindy, salsa, WCS, etc.

Taxi for CJ!!

Implying that Ceroc should be advertised in such a way......ie:

"Learn to dance in one night.....but don't expect to be "good". Anything beyond intermediate level then you'll need to find a new dance class"

filthycute x x

[CJ]

Gus, old chap, I didn't say the use of "Competition" was the source of this thread. I do still feel, however, that the notions of competition, competing and winning, etc have come to the fore more recently. Similarly, there have been a lot of reference to the "level" or "stndard" of dancers, etc. I feel the two are inextricably linked.

That said, it warms me greatly to read your views in your second paragraph re the champs, etc. See, we are agreed on that, at least.

Back to teaching and entertaining: what I am trying to say, not too successfully, is that I don't feel the role of a normal weekly ceroc night is to greatly improve the dancing of an intermediate. That is why workshops are there. Yes, one can learn some funky moves with a little style added for good measure but to take a dancer, already a good distance down the road of expertise, further down that road within the context of a normal ceroc evening just isn't feasable.

Yes, a good teacher is entertaing. But success can be measured in many ways. Perhaps not so much how "good" the dancers are, but more how much they have progressed?

My dear FC, I humbly apologise for coming over a s some inverted snob re your improving. Even I would like to improve as a dancer. A guy only has so many yo-yos in his lifetime!!

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Originally posted by Franck
As a result, they became very selective, concentrating on the dancers showing the most promise at the expense of everyone else.
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Posted by FC

As opposed to constantly getting more and more beginners through the door and completely ignoring the more promising dancers?
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Is there no middle ground here? Does it have to be 1 or t'other?

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Why does it always come down to "If you want to be a good dancer then your obviously a snob and you can't have any fun"? Why is it that it's always frowned upon when you want to improve? I've noticed this on lots of threads.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FC, I don't remember reading or writing this anywhere: but I am open to correction!!:wink: Is it not the great Scottish tradition of kicking someone who is trying to improve @ something?? I don't want to repeat myself (again:sorry:) so see above.

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"We can teach you to dance from beginner and improve through intermediate. We can even teach you to be a teacher, but if you want to become a really good dancer then we can't help."
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Still feel this is where workshops/more specialised dance styles play their part.

Anyway......
I feel as if we have 2 threads in one here: teaching/entertaining and teaching/good getting better. Is this right?:

So, well done Gus for stoking a good fire!! If I don't post again, then have a great weekend.

Still waiting for taxi for CJ.

[CJ]

Originally posted by filthycute


Implying that Ceroc should be advertised in such a way......ie:

"Learn to dance in one night.....but don't expect to be "good". Anything beyond intermediate level then you'll need to find a new dance class"

filthycute x x
I wonder how many intermediate dancers are going to be dissapointed to discover they are not actually "good" dancers.:grin:

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Gus
The proof has to be in the end result. I know a number of teachers who have given up the usual class structure because of frustrations in the lack of progression in the dancers. We follow a well defined process, we 'teach' to a high standard ... BUT there are few dancers coming though to advanced levels ... or even strong intermediates. WHY? Is it the type of people we attract to Ceroc or is it that the Modern Jive teaching model is just not appropriate for producing good dancers.

The reality will be clear at the Championships. How many good dancers will there be that can attest their development just to the class structure?


Of course, the one very obvious thing about a lot of the top dancers is that they come from Australasia. It's just like cricket isn't it - we invent it, and they come over and beat us at it!

But seriously, I think their presence does show that the problem isn't Modern Jive per se, but the way it's taught over here. The gap in technique between a good Australasian and all but the best UK Ceroc dancers is pretty extreme.

I don't know how much it represents a typical class "down under", but I've been to some of Amir's classes in London, and here are some of the differences:

* Taught in a dance studio, with mirrors. Use of the mirrors is encouraged, nay required!

* Class begins with a warm up and spinning practice.

* In general, moves are taught with footwork.

* Lead, follow and "feel" of moves are taught.

* The best "shape" and "line" for moves is taught.

* Drops are taught with the emphasis on assuming most people will be able to do them properly. (i.e. not taught as "here's how to do this drop if neither of you trust each other").

* Amir and Kate try to go round the class and check each person at least once - often dancing with them to see if it feels right as well as looks right.

Of course - they don't have anything like the same number of people in a class as Ceroc does.



Maybe thats not what its all about ... maybe people want to come to Ceroc just to have a laugh and just get to a reasonable standard ... if so, lets accept that and plan accordingly.

For most of the punters this is probably a fair enough assessment. What I think a lot of people do get frustrated about is that there's nowhere to go in Ceroc once you get to a reasonable standard. Especially in London, which doesn't really do workshops past intermediate.

Interestingly, was chatting to Clayton & Janine about differences in teaching style, and they felt maybe Australian classes were a little too serious, and somewhere between them and the UK ones would be ideal.

Dave

[Lou]

Originally posted by filthycute
"Learn to dance in one night.....but don't expect to be "good". Anything beyond intermediate level then you'll need to find a new dance class"
:grin:
Actually, that's pretty typical of most set-ups at the moment. Classes are "Beginners" and "Intermediates". There's no one around here these days who actually offers an "Advanced" class. Sherif & Mandy did 3 class nights, about 5 years ago, in the old venue - but they dropped the final class after a while (can't remember their reasons). Perhaps that could be an option?

I think this is just one of those things that is heavily dependent upon the teacher & their teaching style. For instance, Mandy (who I'm a massive fan of, btw!), pushes us further as Intermediates, by introducing more complex moves and suggesting style points during a regular class.

But then, remember I'm speaking from a LeRoc point of view, and of course, your teaching methods vary.

[Lou]

Dave's comment about learning with mirrors is also a good one. The class we held at HP was in a mirrored gym/studio, and it did help a lot. Class sizes were small (max 20 people), but of mixed ability, which did hold back a lot of the more experienced dancers - and unfortunately they stopped coming.

[Lou]

And another reply. Sorry!

Footwork.

Whilst for complete beginners I totally agree that the CEROC method is by far the quickest way to get them dancing to a "reasonable" standard - I feel that teaching/learning footwork is incredibly useful for Intermediates. (OK, so I'm not advocating that you go as far as in the class the other night when the teacher told we women to put our feet in "Second Position" :wink: ) It certainly helps with the flow of the dance, balance, and from a style perspective.

[Franck]

Originally posted by David Franklin
I don't know how much it represents a typical class "down under", but I've been to some of Amir's classes in London, and here are some of the differences: /snip description/The class you described is exactly what a Cerocshop (taught in the UK) is, smaller numbers, studios, warm up etc...


* Drops are taught with the emphasis on assuming most people will be able to do them properly. (i.e. not taught as "here's how to do this drop if neither of you trust each other").This I find (if true) fairly irresponsible, you can never assume anything of your class (unless it was described as a lifts / drops workshops and restrictions had been put on who could apply). Unless you are going to dance with the same partner most of the time, then you cannot "trust" or assume your partner will do the move properly.
What I think a lot of people do get frustrated about is that there's nowhere to go in Ceroc once you get to a reasonable standard. Especially in London, which doesn't really do workshops past intermediate.

Interestingly, was chatting to Clayton & Janine about differences in teaching style, and they felt maybe Australian classes were a little too serious, and somewhere between them and the UK ones would be ideal. I find it interesting that you could not find any workshops past Intermediate level in London as most of the teachers we have invited over to Scotland came from the London area and provided fantastic Style Cerocshops! To pick a few of the Style workshops currently available in London (via Ceroc), we have: Closer than close (self-explanatory) - Quick Quick Slow (musical interpretation) - "Showtime" (Preparing for cabarets) - Dips and Drops - Dynamo (how to energize your dancing) - Vertigo (aerial moves) and the list goes on!

I am puzzled by this assertion that "once you get to a reasonable standard", there is nowhere to go!
All Ceroc classes include an Intermediate class, and to cover all of the moves that we currently teach, would take about 4/5 years of regular weekly attendance! On top of that we offer many workshops, 2 Beginners, 2 Intermediate and several different Style workshops + Double Trouble etc... This is only in Scotland, but the same picture, I'm sure can be found across the country. Over and above that, the freestyle at each night and at parties allows plenty of practise, self-expression and inspiration to keep improving your own level!
For people who still want more, I would recommend they attend other dance classes / workshops, Latin, Ballroom, Lindy, Ballet, Jazz, Line dancing, hip hop, etc... Anyone who wants to get to the next level will need to be taught by a variety of teachers, and pick the best in each field.
All the top dancers (in any dance) will have been taught by as many (and the best) teachers.

Franck.

[Franck]

Originally posted by filthycute
OAs opposed to constantly getting more and more beginners through the door and completely ignoring the more promising dancers? I make no apologies for that, my aim is (and has always been) to get a many people as possible dancing (and enjoying it).
Ceroc is very good at motivating reluctant dancers and turning them into addicts :nice:
I would not want to do anything that would jeopardise that. My understanding is that the more people discover how brilliant and how much fun dancing can be, the happier we will all be.

As to ignoring the more promising dancers, I'm assuming you mean that the teachers do not spend enough time with them to help them progress further!? This might be true at the regular nights, but workshops are there specifically for those who are motivated enough to want to learn more!
In the last six months, we have had 6 different Style workshops in Scotland plus as many Intermediate workshops (where a lot of basic style also gets taught!).

As with everything, there is a balance to be struck and I'm open to suggestions as to how we can improve for Intermediates without sacrificing or scaring away Beginners!

Franck. :nice:

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Ceroc Jock

I wonder how many intermediate dancers are going to be dissapointed to discover they are not actually "good" dancers.:grin:

This i know, but hey, i wasn't my quote :wink:

Taxi for CJ...(can i get a lift?) :sick:

filthycute x x

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Franck

David wrote: * Drops are taught with the emphasis on assuming most people will be able to do them properly. (i.e. not taught as "here's how to do this drop if neither of you trust each other").

This I find (if true) fairly irresponsible, you can never assume anything of your class (unless it was described as a lifts / drops workshops and restrictions had been put on who could apply). Unless you are going to dance with the same partner most of the time, then you cannot "trust" or assume your partner will do the move properly.

Sorry - I was trying to keep the points short rather than overly detailed. Like Ceroc, Amir will give alternatives, and will encourage people to tell their partner if they don't want to do a drop. But there are many moves that only work well if the couple trust each other. If they don't, then (IMHO) they shouldn't be doing the move.

Because the atmosphere is somewhat more "serious" than Ceroc, and the numbers are smaller it actually works pretty well. [I think it's near impossible to teach drops well to more than a few people at once].



I find it interesting that you could not find any workshops past Intermediate level in London as most of the teachers we have invited over to Scotland came from the London area and provided fantastic Style Cerocshops! To pick a few of the Style workshops currently available in London (via Ceroc), we have: Closer than close (self-explanatory) - Quick Quick Slow (musical interpretation) - "Showtime" (Preparing for cabarets) - Dips and Drops - Dynamo (how to energize your dancing) - Vertigo (aerial moves) and the list goes on!


Where are you getting this list? Because the Ceroc web site only lists Beginner and Intermediate workshops (plus new Intermediate Plus). I know that about 2 years ago we were trying to get Viktor or Mick to do a style workshop in London and couldn't get it to happen.


I am puzzled by this assertion that "once you get to a reasonable standard", there is nowhere to go!
All Ceroc classes include an Intermediate class, and to cover all of the moves that we currently teach, would take about 4/5 years of regular weekly attendance!

Dancing is about a lot more than moves though! I can assure you that the most common thing I hear from people after a year or two of Ceroc is "I don't feel I'm learning anything in the classes anymore".


On top of that we offer many workshops, 2 Beginners, 2 Intermediate and several different Style workshops + Double Trouble etc... This is only in Scotland, but the same picture, I'm sure can be found across the country.

Over the last year I've really been concentrating on aerials and cabaret, so haven't been looking much. But in the past, it has been very hard to find Ceroc workshops in London - I know many people from London who have ended up travelling outside London to do Ceroc workshops. The only time I've had a style class from Mick is in the Isle of Wight! There's also a difference between one-off workshops and regular classes.


For people who still want more, I would recommend they attend other dance classes / workshops, Latin, Ballroom, Lindy, Ballet, Jazz, Line dancing, hip hop, etc...


As FC has said, it does always seem to come down to "if you want more, then leave". I know that's not exactly what you said, but it is how it often feels to people.

I think there are a lot of people who would like to stay inside the Ceroc environment but still go further than the intermediate classes. It's a shame if they end up leaving instead. Hipsters is certainly pulling in a lot of Ceroc regulars. But most of what Nigel's teaching could be taught by many Ceroc teachers if that was the direction they (and Ceroc) decided to go in.

Dave

[Franck]

Originally posted by David Franklin
Sorry - I was trying to keep the points short rather than overly detailed. Like Ceroc, Amir will give alternatives, and will encourage people to tell their partner if they don't want to do a drop. But there are many moves that only work well if the couple trust each other. If they don't, then (IMHO) they shouldn't be doing the move. Glad to hear it, and I agree!


Where are you getting this list? This is a list sent to all Ceroc franchisees advertising workshops created by individual teachers and approved by Ceroc. I am not sure when they run these workshops, but a phone call to head-office should answer that. I am planning to invite another teacher early next year to teach another couple of Style workshops, so you could always visit Scotland at the same time! :nice:
Dancing is about a lot more than moves though!I agree, but a lot of the (intermediate) moves are influenced by other dances and as a result can inspire style! So moves are not enough, you are right but they provide a good basis for progress.
As FC has said, it does always seem to come down to "if you want more, then leave". I know that's not exactly what you said, but it is how it often feels to people.It does not have to be (and often is not) either / or, a lot of people once they realise they can dance will start a different dance class in parallel to their Ceroc class, and will appreciate the fact that they can go to the Ceroc freestyle to practise their new moves and style!

Franck.

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Franck
As with everything, there is a balance to be struck and I'm open to suggestions as to how we can improve for Intermediates without sacrificing or scaring away Beginners!

Franck. :nice: Why not have intermediate Taxi's?

Ok i know someone's gonna jump in a give me a great explanation as to why this isn't plausible....just thought i'd take a chance :wink:
For people who still want more, I would recommend they attend other dance classes / workshops, Latin, Ballroom, Lindy, Ballet, Jazz, Line dancing, hip hop, etc... Cheers...i feel really great now. Thats ok, i know where i'm not wanted:tears:....NO! don't stop me...i'm going....
don't worry, i won't let the door hit my ass on the way out...:(
I know there's someone...somewhere who wants me....

Your not my father anyway!!! :yum:

oops! got carried away...thats Star Wars :yum:

filthycute x x

hehe changed it acorrdingly)

[Franck]

Originally posted by filthycute
Why not have intermediate Taxi's?
Ok i know someone's gonna jump in a give me a great explanation as to why this isn't plausible....just thought i'd take a chance :wink:An interesting idea, and I will give it some serious thought, though the immediate problem I can see is "who" will you recruit and on what basis? How many people will you offend when they are not asked? :sad:
There might be ways to improve on that, and maybe this deserves a thread of its own, to bounce ideas off each other!


Thats ok, i know where i'm not wanted:tears:....NO! don't stop me...i'm going...How can you possibly say that!!??? Not wanted, whom would I be able to share my MAd moments with if you left :sad: :tears:
By all means, go and pick up different tips from different classes, but come back to Ceroc and share them with us!
Anything from Kick-boxing yet, or is this asking for trouble? :wink: :really:

All the dance classes can live happily together with everyone trying out different things and building their own style (and yours is fairly inimitable :yum: ).

Franck.

P.S. Those rumours about me being your father are a complete fabrication. :what:

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Franck
my aim is (and has always been) to get a many people as possible dancing (and enjoying it).
Ceroc is very good at motivating reluctant dancers and turning them into addicts :nice:
I would not want to do anything that would jeopardise that. My understanding is that the more people discover how brilliant and how much fun dancing can be, the happier we will all be.

Franck. :nice: That says it all for me. Being a very relucant dancer in the past and now a total Ceroc addict I think the balance is as it should be.

Had I come to Ceroc and it was very technical with lots of footwork every night then I probably would have a run a mile. Instead within a few hours you can dance and have fun.

The teaching for me is at just the right level and as Dave said there is plenty of opportunity to improve on other aspects such as style by attending the many workshops. The intermediate classes provide lots of opportunity to pick up new steps and as Franck said it would take a number of years to get through these alone.

Ceroc is for everyone not just but not excluding those who have gone to ballet, tap, ballroom or whatever. It gives the two left feet folk like me the opportunity to feel like really good dancers, to find out that dancing can be such great fun and to develop their own style taken from watching other dancers and attending workshops etc.

Like FC I don't know Jack about teaching but I can follow the steps (mostly!) and I can see many people who have advanced so much over the past months which suggests that the teacher is doing her/his job very well.

If you make Ceroc too serious then it will put a lot of folk off and will become elitist. I don't think that's what Ceroc is about.

I love going to Ceroc to learn and have fun, please don't change it too much:wink:

Cheers

Sandy

[Graham]

I'm not going to try to quote from previous posts, as there are far too many excellent points I want to refer to. In general I agree with Franck's position, and firmly oppose Gus's original motion.

What is good? The top 5%? The top 1%? The top 0.001%? If you go to a wedding reception it's not that unusual for some dapper old gent to be waltzing/foxtrotting/quickstepping around the floor, to exclamations of admiration: "Fred's such a good dancer!" etc. However, from the tone of Gus's posts on various threads including this one, I suspect that on his scale most "Freds" would be classed as passable intermediate dancers at best. But compared to the standard of partner dancing amongst the general population, this is of course very good.

The whole point of Ceroc is to make partner dancing accessible to the masses, and to make people "good" dancers to the extent that old waltzing Fred is. In this, I do not see any problem with the current class format - I believe it is entirely possible for most people to achieve an acceptable standard solely by attending the regular classes. By acceptable, I mean being able to dance to music with a partner in a reasonably flowing way with varied moves (rather than simple repetition of a set sequence of moves). Since I would estimate that this easily puts most Cerocers in the top 5% of the population, dance-wise, I'm happy to define this as "good".

I agree with the point made earlier that teaching effectively inherently involves some degree of entertainment (otherwise why would anyone stay and listen?). However, to achieve the uplift in dancing ability I've described takes more than just incidental teaching, and I think it is verging on being insulting to teachers to suggest that they are as ineffective as Gus's rival seems to be suggesting.

More to come....

[Rachel]

Wow, this is the most thought-provoking thread I've ever read. It's been on my mind, on and off, all morning (while desperately trying to work). I feel like I kind of agree with everyone who's posted on this, in a way. Everyone's made some really valid points.

When I first saw Gus' mail, I was quite incensed, thinking, hang on, of course teachers teach! But the more I think about it, the more I agree that it's unrealistic to think you can teach that much to such a large group of people. I know it's a very different thing, but I'm a trainer in my work and the maximum number of trainees we like to have is 6. Dance teaching is, of course, a different matter, but there's no way you can give any individual attention when you have a class of 50 or 100 people and just have an overview from the stage and can't wander about amongst the class.

While I wouldn't go so far as to say that Ceroc teachers are, at best, entertainers, I think that what they predominantely do is get their class to learn by example. Not so much teach as guide, enthuse and encourage people to want to learn. It's an individual's own motivation that makes them take the necessary steps to improve. I think that's how most people learn - they see the teacher or another advanced person dancing well - they see what standard it's possible to attain - and they are encouraged by the teacher to think it's possible for them to be able to do it, too. You don't teach, as much as enable people to learn for themselves.

People then have to go out and practise, dance as much as they can in the freestyle and with as many different people as possible. With beginners, it's far easier to 'teach' since you still need to cover all the groundwork, but if an intermediate takes away just one new move or style tip from a class, I think that's very good going. Probably the best thing they'll get from a class is learning to dance with so many different people, each with their own style, tension, way of leading/following.

The sense of 'if you want to learn more, then leave', I kind of disagree with. You can always get more from Ceroc - learning from and dancing with different people - but it's also great to go away and learn new different dance styles and see what new things from there you can incorporate into your Ceroc dancing. There's a very fine line dividing any one dance style from another - the body can only do so much - so it's great to mix and match to a certain extent.

I think Ceroc does an amazing job of attracting and retaining people to it's clubs. I once heard (don't know if it's true or not) that the average ceroc habit of an individual lasts 3 years and, as an average, I think that's great - considering how many people were complete non-dancers before they started and considering how long people keep going at any other new hobby. (Just think how many people take up gym membership and only go once or twice.) I also think that, proportionally, Ceroc does produce huge numbers of extremely good dancers - so I don't think its class structure and teaching methods can be faulted.

I love what's being done more and more at Ceroc clubs nowadays with the taxi dancers teaching a beginners' refresher class while the intermediate class is going on. There is then a small group of maybe a dozen people who you really can 'teach' - consolidating the moves which were done in the main class and adding any basics or extras which the main class didn't have the time to deal with. You're then in a position to look at everyone individually and correct any faults, and can be flexible enough to focus your teaching on the points that are really needed.

I've often thought that it would be fantastic to have a similar kind of intermediate refresher, or an advanced mini-class at the end of the evening - but I don't really know how that would be possible. Maybe, as you say, that's best left for workshops. However, I'm not sure about Franck's point concerning how you would chose people to teach that kind of thing and how you avoid offending anyone you don't chose. Surely it would be no different from the way we currently select taxi dancers? If anyone does get offended by not being chosen, then they're just being silly.

The biggest problem in getting taxi dancers to teach, in my mind, is making sure that you give them enough training to be able to do it properly, since they won't have had the benefit of the the Ceroc HQ's training. And, you're right, there's so much hard work and effort that goes into the teacher training, no-one else can really just step into a teacher's shoes, just like that. And, if taxi dancers are giving wrong advice on spinning or tension or whatever, however sincerely meant, then it can do more harm than good. Thinking about it, those taxi's who teach the refresher probably have far more influence on the beginners than the proper Ceroc teacher. That's a scary thought, isn't it? I know that many of them are fantastic, but after all the training the teacher has had to go through ... and as far as I know, the teacher never checks them or watches them do the refresher since they're busy doing the intermediate (am I wrong here?). Oh dear, I'm getting myself all worked up by this now ... maybe time to stop! (And yes, I know, this is much too long a mail again. Promise I'll do better next time - it will be a one sentence only posting ...)
Rachel

[Gus]

Originally posted by Graham
However, to achieve the uplift in dancing ability I've described takes more than just incidental teaching, and I think it is verging on being insulting to teachers to suggest that they are as ineffective as Gus's rival seems to be suggesting.

More to come....

As I started this furore ... and much good stuff has been said ... thought I'd chip in again.

Re the comment bout my 'rival teacher'. she was not saying that the teachers can't teach ... shes saying there is a LIMIT to what we can teach using the current model ... and I've seen nothing in the discussion to date to really argue against that. As I said previoulsy I think that we have to accept that we can only take the majority of dancers so far..... To progress dancers ther are other teaching approaches.

To quickly comment back on a few comments by in other replies

Re LeRoc method. Sorry ... but its no more effective than any other Modern Jive methods ... been there, seen them ... no difference.

Re Amir ... couldn't agree more BUT ... firstly the guy is exceptional, one of the few guys I've seen on Viktor's level and also he is teaching effectively a workshop every week ... there is no direct comparison to a Ceroc class of 100 or so punters

Re advanced lessons ... been there, done that ... amused the masses but few moves stick as you are teaching toward the top end of a 100 people or so ... so the bottom 50 have trouble with the moves and stop enjoying it. As mentioned before, most people come for the enjoyment rather than the lesson itself. (Methinks I feel another poll coming on)

Re further lessons in London ... WHAT??? There are more workshops and courses in London than in the rest of the UK put together.

Aussies the best? OK, very good at competition but there is a far higher reliance on choreographed moves. They do tend to take it more seriously but are they better dancers versus performer? Don't know. Have to say that both Clayton & Janine are an exception in that they are both wonderfull dancers and extremely nice people ... great ambassadors for Aussie land ... but how representative are they ... remember they are also the top in Australia.

PERSONAL view ... the way to get better is to dance with better dancers and watch other good dancers ... that is why London has the edge, they've reached critical mass in competence ... you can learn loads by just watching a night, say at Fulham.

BUT ... if you enjoy your dancing as it is ... who says that you have to get better?

[Franck]

Originally posted by Rachel
Wow, this is the most thought-provoking thread I've ever read. It's been on my mind, on and off, all morning (while desperately trying to work).I agree, at least for anyone who will take the trouble to read all the very long and detailed replies... Brilliant stuff and very enlightening! :nice:


But the more I think about it, the more I agree that it's unrealistic to think you can teach that much to such a large group of people. I know it's a very different thing, but I'm a trainer in my work and the maximum number of trainees we like to have is 6. Dance teaching is, of course, a different matter, but there's no way you can give any individual attention when you have a class of 50 or 100 people and just have an overview from the stage and can't wander about amongst the class. Different aims are achieved by bigger classes vs smaller workshops. In a big class, it is easy to be anonymous and to try out moves with or without success, with very little pressure; if you get it wrong a new partner will be along in a minute or 2! So Beginners and budding Intermediates are happy to give it a go... I have seen and heard of many people who just could not handle the smaller workshop format on their first time at Ceroc, and ended up giving up half-way through the day or simply not coming back. It is my view that in the anonymity of a large class they would not have been so self-conscious... :sad:


You don't teach, as much as enable people to learn for themselves.I do not make your distinction, we do teach, by example, with words, repetition and simple technique, and people learn. It just works.


I think Ceroc does an amazing job of attracting and retaining people to it's clubs.I agree, and in particular, we are fairly unique in having such a high number of men attending our classes regularly!
I am not sure why that is, and while I know that we could always use a few more men :wink: the situation is pretty good... (but that's another thread).

Franck. :nice:

[Bill]

But surely it would be possible to cater for those dancers who want to progress and still have fun :)

As one of the more experienced:rolleyes: dancers in Aberdeen I would love to improve and learn more WITHIN Ceroc but that's not so easy and as several folk have now pointed out there are other forms of dance I could do.

But having tried Salsa all I did was get confused :sorry and after about 40 mins I found the music got very repetative (for obvious reasons) and so longed to to return to jive. For those of us in Aberdeen the alternatives are limited and so to some extent Ceroc has a monopoly.

There is Salsa and possibly line dancing but in Edinburgh and down south there are so many other forms of dancing that there is serious competition. I've had to go to Beach Boogie and workshops organised by other groups to learn more about style and musical interpretation and I suppose as I'm getting on a bit :tears: I'm impatient as I want to improve NOW !

I appreciate that for most folk Ceroc is about having fun and dancing as well as you can which is why so many people stay for a while and leave when they feel they have learned as much as they need. But there must be a place for some form of 'advanced' workshops. The one last week was great - with H - but there is a gap after having attended the usual style workshops.

I really don't want to be told to go off and learn something else but if I liived elsewhere I coudl be doing WCS or whatever was available. I also think that 'good' dancers are less likely to come to Ceroc because they are already dancing. Ceroc's great appeal is that almost anyone can manage it and that shouldn't change. But for a lot of us who attend regularly thee is a gap.

I did mention earlier the NZ class system where they teach beginners, intermediate and advanced separately. I don't particularly like the separation but they do give time and attention to those who want to move up a level.

[Franck]

Originally posted by bill foreman
But surely it would be possible to cater for those dancers who want to progress and still have fun :)

As one of the more experienced :rolleyes: dancers in Aberdeen I would love to improve and learn more WITHIN Ceroc but that's not so easy and as several folk have now pointed out there are other forms of dance I could do.

For those of us in Aberdeen the alternatives are limited and so to some extent Ceroc has a monopoly.Just to answer a few selected points above.

It is possible to cater for both, and I hope we are moving in the right direction. I would rather everyone stayed within Ceroc, but why always re-invent the wheel, if there is a (say for example) a hip hop class near where you are and the teacher is an expert at teaching footwork and body movement, why not go to their classes and pick up the bits you're interested? The same with Ballet and other classes...
I take your point about the frustrations you can experience trying out different things, you very quickly miss the flexibility and freedom of Ceroc!

I don't think Ceroc has a monopoly in Aberdeen (or in Scotland), though I believe we are the best :wink:
The point you make brings up the commercial side of things, where running a class for a small number of "advanced" dancers simply is un-economical outside of London, so as a result, the choices we have in Scotland are more limited.
However, I am sure that over the last 10 years when Ceroc has been in Scotland, we have actually increased the market for dance classes to a point where there is a lot more choice now (in Glasgow and Edinburgh at least, but the same will happen in Aberdeen).

Finally Bill, I am glad you enjoyed the workshop last week-end, and in the spirit of this thread, I can promise you a few more style events in the coming year, so watch this space and don't hang your dance shoes yet :wink:

Franck.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Rachel

When I first saw Gus' mail, I was quite incensed, thinking, hang on, of course teachers teach!

Ooops .. wasn't trying to provoke that much of a reaction. Point that may have overlooked is that I'm not saying the teachers can't teach ... but that the teaching model is only effective to a point.


The biggest problem in getting taxi dancers to teach, in my mind, is making sure that you give them enough training to be able to do it properly, since they won't have had the benefit of the the Ceroc HQ's training.
Rachel


Rachel ... a superb response .... it'll take me a least a day or two to really get to drips with everything you're saying but thanks for such a great contribution.

The one point I'd like to pick up on is your above comments re taxi dancers. This is oone area where, if I remeber correctly, there are bo strict guidleines from HQ. Its very true that we place a lot of trust in taxis and its very difficult to give them the support they require.

I can't comment for other clubs but I was lucky enough to be in a position to be able to coach my crew myself ... and as such I KNEW they were teaching properly. Since I've dropped out of the club I know that's not been possible and some of the new crew are a bit 'shaky' in the coaching sessions, which is a real shame for them and the punters.

Having said that, I've been to some non-Ceroc clubs where the 'taxi dancers' were nothning short of a liability and would have actively put me off!:reallymad

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Gus


As I started this furore ... and much good stuff has been said ... thought I'd chip in again.

To quickly comment back on a few comments by in other replies

Re LeRoc method. Sorry ... but its no more effective than any other Modern Jive methods ... been there, seen them ... no difference.

Re Amir ... couldn't agree more BUT ... firstly the guy is exceptional, one of the few guys I've seen on Viktor's level and also he is teaching effectively a workshop every week ... there is no direct comparison to a Ceroc class of 100 or so punters

Every teacher I've known from down under has been at (or just under) that kind of level. Of course, the kind of teacher who will travel over here is going be somewhat self-selecting.

You've been to Australia haven't you? What did you think about their approach compared to here? My partner has danced there, but in Perth, which is apparently a lot less serious about it than say Sydney.



Re advanced lessons ... been there, done that ... amused the masses but few moves stick as you are teaching toward the top end of a 100 people or so ... so the bottom 50 have trouble with the moves and stop enjoying it. As mentioned before, most people come for the enjoyment rather than the lesson itself. (Methinks I feel another poll coming on)

Difficult balance - at some level you need strictness in order to progress - but we all have fragile egos as well...


Re further lessons in London ... WHAT??? There are more workshops and courses in London than in the rest of the UK put together.

Please note I'm talking specifically London Ceroc workshops. In general I think I'm pretty well informed, although I've not been so much in the loop over the last few months. I've certainly not heard of any advanced level workshops in London (I vaguely recall Rob planned a double trouble workshop a while back, but it got cancelled due to lack of numbers). I know Adam does some workshops that are in Greater London area but he's CerocMetro...

To be honest, I'm getting a bit mystified about all these Ceroc workshops I'm missing - am I on some kind of black list?


Aussies the best? OK, very good at competition but there is a far higher reliance on choreographed moves. They do tend to take it more seriously but are they better dancers versus performer? Don't know. Have to say that both Clayton & Janine are an exception in that they are both wonderfull dancers and extremely nice people ... great ambassadors for Aussie land ... but how representative are they ... remember they are also the top in Australia.

Most of the Aussies and Kiwi's I know over here would belong in the "advanced" category of the Ceroc champs. Though of course, if you're an Austrailian who comes over here and goes to Ceroc, chances are you're a pretty serious dancer, which biases things a bit. Not that they don't still learn things from us as well - as you imply, I think we stress freestyle interpretation a bit more than they do.



PERSONAL view ... the way to get better is to dance with better dancers and watch other good dancers ... that is why London has the edge, they've reached critical mass in competence ... you can learn loads by just watching a night, say at Fulham.

Although some people can do that, I have to say I usually need a much slower breakdown than I can get during freestyle. I've made a lot of use of the frame-by-frame control on my VCR...

Videoing, mirrors and time devoted specifically to practice have all made a difference to me as well...

Dave

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Franck
Different aims are achieved by bigger classes vs smaller workshops. In a big class, it is easy to be anonymous and to try out moves with or without success, with very little pressure; if you get it wrong a new partner will be along in a minute or 2! So Beginners and budding Intermediates are happy to give it a go... I have seen and heard of many people who just could not handle the smaller workshop format on their first time at Ceroc, and ended up giving up half-way through the day or simply not coming back. It is my view that in the anonymity of a large class they would not have been so self-conscious... :sad: Yes, that's actually a very good point - something I hadn't thought of, but it makes a lot of sense.
(see, I can do short posts when I try!)

[Gus]

Originally posted by David Franklin
To be honest, I'm getting a bit mystified about all these Ceroc workshops I'm missing - am I on some kind of black list? Sorry Dave, Ceroc HQ puts heavy restriction on running 'non-standard' workshops. I was refering to all the independants as well as the usual Jivespree, MJC, Beach Boogie, Rock Bottoms type events

Most of the Aussies and Kiwi's I know over here would belong in the "advanced" category of the Ceroc champs. Though of course, if you're an Austrailian who comes over here and goes to Ceroc, chances are you're a pretty serious dancer, which biases things a bit.

Dave Haven't been to Australia so can't comment but danced around a fair bit in NZ and would say the overall standrad is about the same.....though the NZ style of dance is a bit more extrovert than ours. Personaly love their style but wouldn't say it was hugely better ... just a little different. ... and boy do they like their drops!

As for standard of teachers, I'm teaching alongside Paul Tanuvasu who is apparently their version of Viktor so I'm looking forward to seeing at first hand how good he is .... from what I've heard I'm prepared to be very impressed. Bit intimidating, how would you like to teach a lesson and know that Viktor and Lydia are next on stage:sick:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
Sorry Dave, Ceroc HQ puts heavy restriction on running 'non-standard' workshops. Not so much restrictions as quality control! The only restriction I am aware of is that the workshop you submit (and it has to be submitted to the dance department first), is in line with the general philosophy of Ceroc, ie presented in an accessible (for the level targeted) and fun way.
Once you have submitted a new workshop to HQ, it is then advertised to all franchises so we can invite guest teachers!

Franck.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Gus
Ooops .. wasn't trying to provoke that much of a reaction. Point that may have overlooked is that I'm not saying the teachers can't teach ... but that the teaching model is only effective to a point.
Well maybe 'incensed' was the wrong choice of word, a bit OTT - really, I did understand that you weren't criticising the teachers' abilities, just how effective their teaching could be within that kind of class structure.


I can't comment for other clubs but I was lucky enough to be in a position to be able to coach my crew myself ... and as such I KNEW they were teaching properly.
Wonderful! If only ALL teachers were able to do that ... I don't blame the teachers who don't/can't, though - I know they already put in so much time and effort, it must be virtually impossible to keep tabs on how good all the individual taxi dancers are.

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Gus
Sorry Dave, Ceroc HQ puts heavy restriction on running 'non-standard' workshops. I was refering to all the independants as well as the usual Jivespree, MJC, Beach Boogie, Rock Bottoms type events.

Yeah, that was my impression. Find it funny that V&L have done style workshops all over the place, but not in London.

the NZ style of dance is a bit more extrovert than ours.
Having danced with Tania and watched Hayley, I know what you mean!

how would you like to teach a lesson and know that Viktor and Lydia are next on stage:
V&L were the teachers at the first class I ever went to. Still, they're not exactly noted for acidic heckling, so I'd rather them than Mr Anderson...

[Franck]

Originally posted by Rachel
The biggest problem in getting taxi dancers to teach, in my mind, is making sure that you give them enough training to be able to do it properly, since they won't have had the benefit of the the Ceroc HQ's training. And, you're right, there's so much hard work and effort that goes into the teacher training, no-one else can really just step into a teacher's shoes, just like that. And, if taxi dancers are giving wrong advice on spinning or tension or whatever, however sincerely meant, then it can do more harm than good.Very good point Rachel.

My views are that Taxi-dancers are not supposed to teach at all, as you say, they have not (usually) done any teacher training and trying to teach can be counter-productive...

Your point about training is very valid though. If anything proper training or Taxi-dancers would emphasize that they are not there to teach, but to encourage and offer a friendly face / hand for a dance or 2...
It is very important to re-assure Beginners, and often some very good dancers will not be asked to become taxi-dancers because they are at a stage where they are focusing on technical perfection, which is not what a Beginner needs!

We have run Taxi training sessions in the past, but in the last couple of years, this has not happened unfortunately, due to a lack of time for who would be involved.
Funnily enough, I was discussing this with Mairi (Glasgow teacher) and Lorna (Aberdeen teacher) and we were planning a couple of half-day training sessions to address these issues...
We currently have a 12 pages manual with a full description of what to do, and what not to do as a taxi-dancer, but nothing can replace a more direct approach.

Franck.

[SwingSwingSwing]

Originally posted by Franck
We currently have a 12 pages manual with a full description of what to do, and what not to do as a taxi-dancer, but nothing can replace a more direct approach.Does the manual still have the bit about Taxi Dancers having to wear freshly ironed Taxi Dancer T-Shirts?:D

It it hadn't been for that clause I would have been a Taxi Dancer a couple of years ago!

SwingSwingSwing

[Lou]

Originally posted by Gus
To quickly comment back on a few comments by in other replies

Re LeRoc method. Sorry ... but its no more effective than any other Modern Jive methods ... been there, seen them ... no difference.


Including the suggestion I made about actually having an "Advanced" class at some venues? Seems that it might just help you find the better dancers that you're looking for.

Please don't disregard it because it's been done in LeRoc . (Though I'm sure you wouldn't).

[Franck]

Originally posted by SwingSwingSwing
Does the manual still have the bit about Taxi Dancers having to wear freshly ironed Taxi Dancer T-Shirts?:D Yep, just checked...

Here are a few quotes on What a taxi-dancer is (from the manual):


A Taxi Dancer is someone who:

- is welcoming and friendly
- can encourage and guide New Members and Beginners
- can help New Members and Beginners feel comfortable by chatting informally
- is approachable
- is a competent and accurate dancer
- can give effective help and guidance
- enjoys their evening and can pass this enjoyment on to others

Purpose of a taxi Dancer

- To make New Members feel welcome and comfortable.
- To encourage beginners, as they are relatively new and need help and guidance.
- New Members are Ceroc's future. A Taxi Dancer therefore plays a vital role in making the future happen.

Role of the taxi Dancer

- A Taxi Dancer's role is to arrive before the class starts and help out at the admissions desk with the signing up/in of New Members.
- To join in the Beginners class and dance with as many New Members and Beginners in the Freestyle.
- To offer help and guidance by dancing and chatting throughout the evening and to always be approachable and friendly.

These 2 lines can also be found in the dos and don'ts of Taxi-dancing:


-Do arrive on time and wear your Ceroc Taxi Dancer uniform (Taxi T-Shirt) which is to be cleaned and pressed.

- Don't show off by dancing with intermediates.While the first one, will help promote a more professional image, the second point is crucial to make Beginners feel like the Taxi-dancers are not just "doing them a favour" by dancing with them... :nice:

Franck.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by SwingSwingSwing
Does the manual still have the bit about Taxi Dancers having to wear freshly ironed Taxi Dancer T-Shirts?:D
It it hadn't been for that clause I would have been a Taxi Dancer a couple of years ago! Totally agree - life's way too short for ironing t-shirts! Anyway, does this mean that pink hair, tongue studs, all-over body tattoos (not that there's anything wrong with these), BO, bad breath (ok, I know I'm getting silly) ... are fine for taxi dancers, but NOT an unironed t-shirt?! Oh dear, here's that old problem of my idea of acceptable image being somewhat different from Ceroc HQ's ...

[Bill]

However helpful a manual might be it doesn't replace the need for 'proper' training.

I mentioned this to Lorna a few weeks ago and an attempt was made some time ago to have a training day/ get together. A number of taxi dancers up here have been doing the 'job' for a while so know the ropes but those just starting get very little if any 'training' and sticking the manual - if they actually see it - at them is not the best way to do it.

I attended a training day/workshop in England (not Ceroc) and it was a great day and something that could/should have happened up here ages ago. All the taxi dancers, demo's, teachers were there to discuss what their roles were, why it's important to look smart, what to think about on stage and when taxi-ing, and a few nice moves and style points thrown in.

Teachers can only assume taxi-dancers are doing a good job and select dancers who they believe can perform the role effectively. It's difficult to get the balance of how much time to spend with one newcomer if there are several hovering around; what to say and how much is actually 'teaching'.

I still get a lot of pleasure from doing it and I think most taxi dancers do a grand job and I can say that it's a role they do take seriously.:grin:

[Emma]

Originally posted by David Franklin


Where are you getting this list? Because the Ceroc web site only lists Beginner and Intermediate workshops (plus new Intermediate Plus).



The main Ceroc website is lousy, in my opinion. :reallymad Not only is is hard to navigate but it has harldy any useful information on it unless you are a complete newbie to the world of Ceroc. I only hope they didn't pay someone to set it up.

..just thought I'd get that off my chest! :grin: I suppose I ought to email them and tell them too, then they can do something about it.

I realise this debate has spiralled off in one direction but my twopennorth about teaching and entertaining (er, that was what it was about in the first place wasn't it?) is that all good teaching involves an element of entertainment. Good teaching also requires responsiveness to the class: I had a very frustrating experience the other evening when I was at a venue doing the beginners class, the teacher commented upon how quickly everyone was picking up the routine, and then continued to go over the moves that everyone was supposedly picking up super-fast three or four more times. My issue with this is that it would have been better to add some style points (or something) at this point rather than go over ground which didn't need re-covering. So for me, the class was not good because the teacher was not responding to the classes ability.

OK, I've had my moan and I feel better now. :cheers:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck


My views are that Taxi-dancers are not supposed to teach at all, as you say, they have not (usually) done any teacher training and trying to teach can be counter-productive...

Franck.

Missed this point earlier . Franck is absolutely correct, taxi dancers are not supposed to teach ... HOWEVER, this was one area where I decided to break the rules (I know, BAD BOY) as a way of competing against rival clubs.

The situation was that we were losing too many newbies (especially men ) on thier first night so I went through the beginner moves with my top crew so that they knew all the basic mistakes and what key points to communicate. They were not trained to replace teachers .. but more to support what I was doing on stage. this personal attention cut back on the usual problems of ladies leading, men gripping too hard, too big footsteps etc.

Having said that, it only worked because 4 of my crew have been dancing about 3 years and are very good, so good that they really shouldn't be taxis any more.

All in all, I think some training in coaching for Taxis is a good thing, so at least they don't start passing their bad habits (if they have any) onto beginners.

[Emma]

Originally posted by David Franklin

I've certainly not heard of any advanced level workshops in London


..Greenwich is doing them :)

[Emma]

Originally posted by Franck


My views are that Taxi-dancers are not supposed to teach at all


How does this fit in with the refresher classes?

[Gus]

Originally posted by Emma


The main Ceroc website is lousy, in my opinion. :reallymad Not only is is hard to navigate but it has harldy any useful information on it unless you are a complete newbie to the world of Ceroc. I only hope they didn't pay someone to set it up.:

I hate to tell you but this is their IMPROVED site that as franchisees we waited months for ...

Ceroc has many things going for it, grasp of modern world technology is not one of them. They've had people fomr within Ceroc offer to do very good things for them .. but they've been turned down.

You know Scot's website .... that was taken from a prototype from a few years back! But Ceroc turned it down .... never mind, its really another thread but at least its an easy target.

Please complain ... one day they may put up something that isn't as embaressingly bad and useless. May even feature in an edition of "How Not to build a website".

[Emma]

Originally posted by Gus


I hate to tell you but this is their IMPROVED site that as franchisees we waited months for ...



Yeah, I realise..I saw the old one, which was very amateurish but at least you could find things, it didn't have broken links..the front page was named...you could tell how to get past the opening page...etc


erm..it's a bit of a hobbyhorse, bad websites :wink:

[Tiggerbabe]

Right guys - here goes, having spent the best part of half an hour reading all of this I need to address one or two points.

Firstly I have been taxi-ing now for about a year and a half and didn't know there was a manual telling me what I'm supposed to do or not do.

Secondly for the past wee while in Dundee there have been at least 20 and at one count 36 beginners waiting for the refresher class and believe me they expect to be taught...........

Thirdly my t-shirt is always ironed and belly button ring polished in case of inspection:wink:

Seriously I would welcome a course of some sort for taxi-dancers - what a great idea. I do worry that I am teaching them my bad habits without even realising it. I'm sure a lot of the beginners think that taxis are employed by Ceroc and have undergone the same training as the teacher - possibly because they spend more time with us than they do on the floor during the class.

The teacher we have at the moment didn't get to choose her taxi-dancers - she inherited us from the last teacher...................

[Franck]

Originally posted by Sheena
Firstly I have been taxi-ing now for about a year and a half and didn't know there was a manual telling me what I'm supposed to do or not do.The manual I refer to is not standard Ceroc issue, but something devised 8 years ago by a few of us. I don't think it is in wide use now. I find it a useful reminder for new Taxi-dancers, but as you (and Bill) say not as good as proper face to face training!
Another thing I try and do, is encourage all Taxi-dancers to attend Beginners workshops (for free of course), they usually enjoy it a lot and learn enough good tips to serve them on the Ceroc nights
Secondly for the past wee while in Dundee there have been at least 20 and at one count 36 beginners waiting for the refresher class and believe me they expect to be taught........... I suppose it all depends on your definition of teaching (here we go again). I tend to call those sessions revision, a chance to go over the moves again after a bit of practice... I am sure it could be called teaching, and possibly Beginners don't see much difference.
But in my view, Taxis are there to answer questions and offer advice of course, but mostly to re-assure new comers that they are doing fine and give them a dance or 2, not spend time over a specific point trying to make the Beginner improve.
Partly because you might indeed give them misleading advice, but also because they have already done 45 minutes of classes and should be able to relax and actually dance the moves! :nice:

Franck.

[filthycute]

Anyone mind if i get petty?
No?
Are you sure?
Oh ok then...here goes....


Originally posted by Franck
not spend time over a specific point trying to make the Beginner improve.
Franck.

Your quite right Franck. No good can become of getting beginners to improve. Before you know they'll be "good" dancers and demanding advanced classes....thats just asking for trouble :yum:

filthycute x x

You know i just can't seem to help myself....no matter how hard i try. It's like trying to dance slow....i'm just no good at it :yum:

PS. Franck....your a star. You know i only do this to you coz you let me away with it :wink:

[Emma]

Originally posted by Franck
I am sure it could be called teaching, and possibly Beginners don't see much difference.
But in my view, Taxis are there to answer questions and offer advice of course, but mostly to re-assure new comers that they are doing fine and give them a dance or 2, not spend time over a specific point trying to make the Beginner improve.


Franck!! Of course it's teaching!!! :grin: And as someone who can clearly remember being a beginner, it's as important if not more important than the teaching in the class - because in a smaller group you can get individual help, and go much more at your own pace, particularly in the first few vital weeks.


..which is sort of terrifying, because I've just been asked to cover for a taxi for a wee while. Oh, the responsibility :what: !

[Heather]

Yes Emma I wholeheartedly agree with you . Of course the Taxi dancers teach !!!! In fact in my opinion,they spend more time with the beginners and more importantly ,get to know the new people much better than the teacher!!
I don't know how familiar with modern teaching methods any of you are, but, its well known that learning in small groups, at the pupils own pace and level is what is expected and is the norm in schools. I would not presume to denegrate the role of the Taxi dancers by daring to imply that they don't teach. In Dundee where there are many beginners, as Sheena says, it is quite simply demanded of them by the beginners themselves. There are so many beginners that I wonder in admiration at just how well Sheena, Alex and the others , cope!! (Must be her Primary Teacher Training!!) I'm sure it would be against EIS Union agreement to attempt to tackle so many 'pupils'.
I liken the taxi dancers to the Learning support teachers in schools, they work with the pupils who need extra support and help ( and a very important role they perform too).
When I first started Ceroc a couple of years ago I was lucky to get a couple of dances from the Taxi dancers , that was the extent of my help.
Give credit where it is due, if the taxi dancers are only there to answer questions,give them a dance or 2 and reassure new comers as Franck points out, then perhaps the teacher should not give them the wrong impression by saying 'the taxi dancers are there for YOU!!' to all the beginners, thereby implying that they are personal instructors for the remainder of the evening!!
I think Sheena and Co do a wonderful , if not a rather taken for granted task!!!

:cheers:

Heather

[Heather]

:wink: Now you know why all these Southerners are getting on to the Cerocscotland website !! Its because the official one is crap!!:wink: :sick:
Congratulations to Franck and the success of our Pure Dead Brilliant website and Discussion Forum. ( Are you sure there's no Scottish blood somewhere in you Franck?) Even if there isn't you are an honorary Scotsman in my book Franck!!:waycool:
By the way, who mentioned Websites on the Teachers thread?
Another act of subversion and going Off Topic!!!:wink: Tut Tut
Punishment exercise to you!!!
:cheers:
Heather

[Franck]

Originally posted by Emma
Franck!! Of course it's teaching!!! Ok, then :nice:
teaching it is, and I think my view was born out of olden days, when we did not have the revision classes during the Intermediate.
The new format provides a suitable framework for Taxi-dancers to teach.

The problem was that sometimes taxi-dancers ended up spending so much time trying to teach a style point or footwork to a complete Beginner that instead of helping them, they were making them feel like they could not do the move or could not dance. :sad:
Some techniques or key points cannot be learnt on the first (or even 2nd, 3rd or 4th) night, and trying to teach Beginners more than they can handle in the first few weeks works against what we are trying to achieve.

I realise though that this is not the Taxi-dancers' fault, but a failure to train them adequately, and myself as a teacher and franchisee should take responsibility and ensure sufficient training is in place for all Taxi-dancers. As I said earlier, we already use a manual and try to get every Taxi-dancer to go to a Beginners' workshop to cover the basic moves accurately, but I am planning further training half-days to complete the current training!

Thanks for all your input on all this subject, as Heather says, it would be too easy to take Taxi-dancers for granted, and the discussions above have made me think a lot more about the whole subject... :nice:

Franck.

[Franck]

Originally posted by filthycute
Your quite right Franck. No good can become of getting beginners to improve. Before you know they'll be "good" dancers and demanding advanced classes....thats just asking for trouble :yum: I thought someone might pick on that bit, and it had to be you :nice:
Now "asking for trouble", why does that ring a bell when you're around??? :wink:

I take your point earlier about wanting to learn more, but just now, I am too busy learning new things of you, to even think of trying to teach you anything. How do you do that body roll thing again :really: :yum:

Keep it up,

Franck.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Heather
Congratulations to Franck and the success of our Pure Dead Brilliant website and Discussion Forum. ( Are you sure there's no Scottish blood somewhere in you Franck?) Even if there isn't you are an honorary Scotsman in my book Franck!!:waycool: Why thank you Heather :nice:
And yes I am sure I don't have any Scottish blood, half French - half Russian is me! But despite all this, I do feel totally at home in Scotland, and as my wife is Scottish, I consider my 2 boys to be Scottish as well...
Scotland is a fabulously welcoming place to live in, and I would not want to be anywhere else in the world!

Franck.

P.S. I was not going to say anything about going off topic, but yet again, it seems that thread has diverted in at least 5 different directions... Oh well :wink: Time for a little malt before bedtime then :cheers:

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Franck
I thought someone might pick on that bit, and it had to be you :nice:
Now "asking for trouble", why does that ring a bell when you're around??? :wink: MOI!?!? Trouble? i think not! :really:

OK maybe a little. Keeps things that little bit more interesting. My masters degree in sarcasm helps :wink:
I take your point earlier about wanting to learn more, but just now, I am too busy learning new things of you, to even think of trying to teach you anything. How do you do that body roll thing again :really: :yum:

Keep it up,

Franck. ahhh the body rolls.

Here's the trick...
Stand face to face with your partner...now touch each other simultaneously starting from your head and working down to your knees.

Does that help?
I've got Gus booked in for a private lesson on Saturday, i'll tackle you next :D

filthycute x x

[Franck]

Originally posted by filthycute
I've got Gus booked in for a private lesson on Saturday, i'll tackle you next :D Hmm, I think I might enjoy the tackle more than the Body roll lesson :yum:
Anyway, who is that Gus you speak of??? I thought I was the only one :tears: :tears: :tears:

Franck. :D

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck
Hmm, I think I might enjoy the tackle more than the Body roll lesson :yum:
Anyway, who is that Gus you speak of??? I thought I was the only one :tears: :tears: :tears:

Franck. :D DONT BLAME ME, SHE MADE ME DO IT .... HONEST!

Excuse me Messr Franck sir but can you please return to the thread and stop to distract your Forum fans by going off topic and making salacious comments about tackling FC ... if all that drunken rumour mongering wasn't enough ... even England now knows about what you have/havn't been up to!:wink: :wink:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
DONT BLAME ME, SHE MADE ME DO IT .... HONEST!

Excuse me Messr Franck sir but can you please return to the thread and stop to distract your Forum fans by going off topic and making salacious comments about tackling FC ... if all that drunken rumour mongering wasn't enough ... even England now knows about what you have/havn't been up to!:wink: :wink: That's it, let's settle it once and for all ! Outside, square go in the Car park (Whoops or maybe not :wink: )
England knows about me :really: Oh no, what have I done this time???
I'll deny it though, it was not me, just malicious rumours... I hardly ever go to England anyway... :devil:

Anyway, back on topic. All the teachers I know are very entertaining, and they have taught an awful lot of people to dance extremely well! :wink:

Franck.

[Emma]

Originally posted by Heather
I liken the taxi dancers to the Learning support teachers in schools, they work with the pupils who need extra support and help ( and a very important role they perform too).That's exactly what I was thinking. Of course the same irony exists in dancing as in teaching - which is that the people in the most need tend to work with the people with the least training, which is not to denegrade the work of those vital assistants at all!

*Emma starts raving about teaching and learning policy and is carted off to the funny farm struggling and spitting*

..Thank God Dancing keeps me (almost) sane!


:cheers:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Emma
Of course the same irony exists in dancing as in teaching - which is that the people in the most need tend to work with the people with the least training,This is not at all what happens in dancing. First Taxi-dancers are far from being people with the least training, they are very good dancers selected for their accurate technique as well as an open and friendly personality :nice:
When Freestyle starts , Beginners will have already followed a class and more or less learnt the moves and just need to get on the dance floor and practise by having a few dances. Taxi-dancers are extremely well suited to help them have a good (successful?) dance.

Franck.

[Jon]

I think that a Ceroc class is there is get people to mingle and to help build the friendly atomsphere at the venue. It should be the teachers job to know what level to teach at. There is no point the teacher entertaining the class with advanced moves if the general level of the class is intermediate.

As the class progresses the teacher should sense this and increse the difficulty of the lesson to provide a new challenge. This doesn't nessaceraly mean complicated moves but prehaps adding style into existing moves. One teacher at a class did this and I thought it would be easy since they were teaching beginner moves but with lots of style added in. It turned out I really had to concentrate. There is a saying the beginners want to learn intermediate moves and advanced dancers want to learn the beginner moves well. I think this applies to Ceroc.

One post mentioned that there are no workshops past imtermediate level especially in London. This is so not true, I personanlly have done well over 20 workshops in London in total. And in fact this weekend I'm doing 'Up Close and Personal'. There are lots of workshops ie. The swing thing', 'Dirty Dancing' and lots of style workshops around you just have to look out for them. And as for Advanced dancing well the Ceroc Charlton venue has taught an Advanced 1 workshop and is doing Advanced 2 and Double Trouble soon.

[Jon]

As for Taxi dancers.

Alot of posts have said that a person can become to good to be a taxi dancer.

What?, surely as long as they teach the moves acurately and are friendly and approachable they should be a taxi dancer.

I think a good taxi dancer is someone who:
1). Knows the moves well and is technically acurate.
2). Is able to give advice to help improve someones dancing. Not just to beginners but intermediates too.
3). Is friendly and who will dance with anyone of any standard.
4). While wearing the taxi shirt dances with beginers the most.
5). On days off from taxiing will dance with intermediates but still approach beginners.
6). When teaching the revision class spends time helping individuals master the moves, which can't be done by the actual teacher in the beginners class of over 100 people. I agree with Emma in that individual attention can be critical when your a beginner. You need to stop the bad habits at the beginner or it'll be harder later to change.
7). Above all else a taxi dancer should want to help people improve their dancing and it should be rewarding for them seeing people improve, otherwise they should not become taxi dancers.

In London there is a course that the taxi dancers have to go on, but having seen some of these taxi dancers I would question if they should be taxi dancers at all. So although a course sounds good I think that what it comes down to is the type of person and not how good a dancer they are that should determine who becomes a taxi dancer.

After all to make a beginner come back a 2nd time they need to have enjoyed themselves. This comes from them having achieved something. If they leave the venue having learnt 4 moves and had a good time they will be back. And they will achieve this with good taxi dancers who have a strong lead. I think the teacher and taxi dancers need to inject an element of fun into the moves. Anyone can teach the moves only some teachers can entertain at the same time.

When I first started it was the teacher (Kelly at Greenwich who's a fantastic teacher, one of the best in London:grin: You can by me a drink later!) and the taxi dancers that gave me the confidence I needed by getting me onto the dance floor in the freestyle. And the revision class was good as I could ask the people in that class for a dance and know they were at my level.

[Jon]

As for workshops at an advanced level check out
http://www.cerocgreenwich.co.uk/cerocshops.htm

[Bill]

Originally posted by Jon
As for Taxi dancers.

Alot of posts have said that a person can become to good to be a taxi dancer.

What?, surely as long as they teach the moves acurately and are friendly and approachable they should be a taxi dancer. I agree ......but you have used the word again that we seem to be diagreeing on.......'teach'. Do we Taxi dancers teach or simply re-inforce what has been taught.

I agree with all 7 of your points Jon and I still enjoy taxi-ing even after more than 4 years and get a buzz from seeing the delight on a new members dface as they realsie they can do the moves and have fun :D

But I still think a proper introduction and/or traing session would be very helpful and I know taxi dancers who have simply been give a tee-shirt and told they'll be starting the following week - no discussion, no training and in some cases no sign of a manual.

It also helps I think to have a space away from the main floor ( this has been touched on before) so that there is more space and less embarrassment at trying the moves out.

If the teacher has made the class fun and the new members have enjoyed it then it obviously makes 'our' job that much easier.:p And lest we forget................it is still all about fun.....even for those of us who desperately want to improve and add some style to our dancing.

Anyone.........apart from FC, Gus and Franck have soemthing to say ?;) Perhaps we should have a thread for the three of them seeingas how they obviously have nothing better to do all day but send replies and start threads to get people going :grin: see you on sat Gus................remember those trousers now:wink:

[Gus]

Originally posted by bill foreman Anyone.........apart from FC, Gus and Franck have soemthing to say ?;) Perhaps we should have a thread for the three of them seeingas how they obviously have nothing better to do all day but send replies and start threads to get people going :grin: [/B]

You blaggard! How dare you call my non-life into scruitiny ... sad truth is, like many self-emplyed consultants, there ain't no work out there so I while away the daylight hours being Billy no mates in my office soming up with yet another brilliant plan to win a contract .... and stay logged into the forum.

Fear not .. once the economy truns round and people realise that they do actualy need Change Management Consultants then I shall dissappear from this forum as quickly as I arrived.

OH ... small point .. the only contract I'm in the running for is in Glasgow ... so you might not get rid of me that easy:nice:

[Franck]

Originally posted by bill foreman
But I still think a proper introduction and/or traing session would be very helpfulWell, Bill I have news for you. Lorna and I have finally managed to get our diaries to synchronize and we will be haveing a Taxi-dancer training workshop and general Crew meeting on Saturday 16th November. Once all the details (venue etc...) have been finalized, all the Aberdeen Crew will be contacted!

Yet another benefit of this Forum! While the above had been on my to do list for a while, this discussion certainly brought it right at the top of current priorities (other priorities include a similar day in Glasgow, the Competition, the 10th Birthday party and new nights in new cities...)

So once again thanks to all of you for the very insightful input you have shared in here, I am sure all the Beginners who join in Aberdeen / Glasgow after November will be very grateful! :cheers:
Not to mention the respective teams of taxi-dancers who will of course have a fabulous day and get a free lunch in the process!

Franck.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Jon
As the class progresses the teacher should sense this and increse the difficulty of the lesson to provide a new challenge. This doesn't nessaceraly mean complicated moves but prehaps adding style into existing moves. One teacher at a class did this and I thought it would be easy since they were teaching beginner moves but with lots of style added in. It turned out I really had to concentrate. You said a lot of very good things in your posting but, rather than quote all of it and say 'yes, I agree with this, this, this ...' I've picked out a couple of points which I don't necessarily agree with. I just don't want you thinking that I'm being negative to your whole mail - sorry if it sounds that way.

Re. your quote above, yes, ideally the teacher should be flexible enough to be able to adapt his teaching according to the level of the class. And, if s/he sees that everyone has got to grips with the routine, then it's great to add style points. That way everyone can find it interesting and challenging.

The problem is that, with average classes of 80 to 100, there are always going to be huge differences in the levels of people's dancing. At any beginners' class, you will get people who have never been before and some who will have attended for years. How on earth do you decide on the balance between making the class easy enough for most people to get and challenging enough to keep the experienced people interested??

At best, you can only go for the middle ground - teach for the majority - but risk boring some people and making it too difficult for others. I think it's up to more experienced dancers to make the beginners' class more interesting themselves - taking the basic moves and seeing how they could do it in a different style, etc, etc. The teacher can help by adding style points and options for the more advanced, but can't do so much that he alienates the newer people (because, even if the style points aren't directed at absolute beginners, you can't stop them listening, and too much information could get them confused, or make them forget what was being said previously).



As for Taxi dancers. Alot of posts have said that a person can become to good to be a taxi dancer. What?, surely as long as they teach the moves acurately and are friendly and approachable they should be a taxi dancer.
... You need to stop the bad habits at the beginner or it'll be harder later to change.
In general, yes, if they do fill those criteria - ie they are accurate dancers and friendly... But, as others have said, some experienced dancers are almost too concerned with being technically accurate or stylish and they might put off a beginner by being insistent that they do everything absolutely properly.

I think it's probably better for a beginner to get moving very early on, and so feel like they are getting somewhere very quickly. If they're getting too strung up on the detail too early on, they might feel like they'll never get the hang of it. I agree that you have to teach people to get the basics correct, but you can always correct more minor faults later on, when they've mastered the essentials. There's only so much information anyone can take in at a time - particularly without getting disheartened that they're getting everything wrong. At least let them have a little success - ie get them dancing the moves in some way or another - before you launch into them with any kind of criticism.


And they will achieve this with good taxi dancers who have a strong lead. I think the teacher and taxi dancers need to inject an element of fun into the moves. Anyone can teach the moves only some teachers can entertain at the same time.
'Teachers and taxi dancers need to inject an element of fun into the moves' - yes, if they can - this definitely helps learning and make people want to come back for more. Good taxi dancers, however, don't always need to have a strong lead - female taxis dancing with males should surely resist the temptation to lead, if they ever want the man to learn for himself.

I'm afraid I totally disagree with 'anyone can teach the moves', but yes, there are very very few people who can be good entertainers with it. There is so much that goes into teaching, being able to look at things from a beginners' perspective and realise why they are finding a particular thing difficult, is a very hard thing to do when you've been dancing some years and it all feels so natural to you. And then, when you've sussed out why they're doing it wrong, how to explain it to them in the way that they'll understand - since everyone learns in different ways. Some learn by watching demonstration, some by gentle encouragement, some by being playfully bullied into it, some by repetition of clear step by step instructions ...

And the likelihood is, that different people in your class will find different things difficult and will learn best in a different way - so how much time can you focus on one particular individual, if it doesn't apply to the rest of the group? You have to be a very very good teacher to be able to get that kind of balance/focus right. In addition, the main teachers have so many other things to think about as well - when to include music, when to move people on, strict time limits to adhere to, making sure you're consistent in the way you dance the moves and explain them, and if you can, be entertaining as well ... which you might think is not too difficult, but to have to think of all these things simultaneously ... Nightmare! And I admire anyone who does it ... think I'll stick to teaching computers, it's much easier!!
Rachel

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Jon
And in fact this weekend I'm doing 'Up Close and Personal'. There are lots of workshops ie. The swing thing', 'Dirty Dancing' and lots of style workshops around you just have to look out for them.

Eh going off topic a bit but I do like the sound of these workshops, can you organise these for Aberdeen Franck:yum:

I don't think much more can be said about Taxi dancers. Lots of valid points made. My first night the Taxi dancer certainly helped me to decide to come back again. A friendly, non judgemental, non intimidating person who knows the moves and can go through them while making them seem achievable. Takes a lot of patience I imagine but necessary. Thanks to Bill who was my first Taxi dancer.

Cheers

Sandy:wink:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Sandy


Eh going off topic a bit but I do like the sound of these workshops, can you organise these for Aberdeen Franck:yum:
Sandy:wink:

Well .... as luck would have it I'm in the process of organising something very similar in Glasgow on the day of the 10 year party (23 Nov).

Final format is still to be decided but it will include 3 workshops probably including 'Up, Close and Personal', Drops and Leans and 'Club Jive'. Hope to get another workshop together for Aberdeen and elsewhere early next year, subject to it not conflicting to anything that Franck and Scot are organising.

Details will be on the Gorgeous Website (www.ggus.co.uk) in the coming weeks.

[Bill]

Originally posted by Sandy


I don't think much more can be said about Taxi dancers. Lots of valid points made. My first night the Taxi dancer certainly helped me to decide to come back again. A friendly, non judgemental, non intimidating person who knows the moves and can go through them while making them seem achievable. Takes a lot of patience I imagine but necessary. Thanks to Bill who was my first Taxi dancer.

Cheers

Sandy:wink:


OOohh..............what can I say...:innocent: :wink: Only doing my job. This deserves a couple of bluesy dances I think :D

and Gus.......I'm sure you have some friends ;) in fact I know you have but he tends to sit around and doesn't say much. Tell you what I'll buy you a drink on Saturday and make you feel better OK:cheers: .....or is that FC's job :confused: :D

[Gus]

Originally posted by bill foreman


and Gus.......I'm sure you have some friends ;) in fact I know you have but he tends to sit around and doesn't say much

In the interests of rumour control I should point out that the 'sitting around friend' that Blues-mad Bill is refering to is actualy a 3ft stuffed Gorrilla called 'Gorgeous Gus' ... my club mascot.

I would bring him up with me but think I many get a few odd looks on the train ... well even more than usual.

Re FC ... if you guys can't control her I don't see that I should be volunteered for the role ... what are you men or mice?:sick:

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Gus


Re FC ... if you guys can't control her I don't see that I should be volunteered for the role ... what are you men or mice?:sick:

Uncontrolable??? Are we talking about the same FC here?

JEEZ!, you guys really help get my dance card full! ...Cheers! :yum:

filthycute x x

PS...BTW guys, if you give me bad advertsing and no one wants to dance with the "raving lunatic", it looks like you'll have to dance with me all night :D
On your own head be it :yum:

[Gus]

Originally posted by filthycute


Uncontrolable??? Are we talking about the same FC here?


May I take this opportuntity to distance myself from the slanderous comments made against FC obviously perpetrated by a malicous hacker using my account.

I can say that I have alwys found FC a delight to dance with and she has always been sweetness and light on the dancefloor :waycool:

However ... there is no comment about her limbo dancing, bodyrolling behaviour outside the Ceroc venues!!1

[Heather]

:confused: I note from your location, Emma ,that you are English,or at least live in England. I would definitely NOT agree that in Scottish schools'people in most need tend to work with the people with the least training' . The Learning Support teacher is most definitely NOT an assistant, but a fully qualified teacher, possibly with a degree and who has undertaken further study to gain an extra qualification in Support for Learning.
HOWEVER, I may have misunderstood your comment, perhaps you are referring to the teaching of Ceroc, in which case you may well be correct in your statement.
:cheers:
Heather

[Lorna]

Originally posted by Heather
:confused: I note from your location, Emma ,that you are English,or at least live in England. I would definitely NOT agree that in Scottish schools'people in most need tend to work with the people with the least training' . The Learning Support teacher is most definitely NOT an assistant, but a fully qualified teacher, possibly with a degree and who has undertaken further study to gain an extra qualification in Support for Learning.
HOWEVER, I may have misunderstood your comment, perhaps you are referring to the teaching of Ceroc, in which case you may well be correct in your statement.
:cheers:
Heather As a ceroc teacher and a secondary school teacher I am a little confused by your last statement:confused: When you say the 'teaching of ceroc' one assumes that you are talking about the teacher of the class, as it is not the role of the taxi dancer to teach, please clarify for me before I come over all defensive. :grin:

love lorna x-x

[Curtain]

I take it childcare doesn't pose enough challenge for you anymore, so you come on here ranting and raving. Get off the high horse and give it back to the wean (don't know if this is the correct spelling).

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by Franck
we will be haveing a Taxi-dancer training workshop and general Crew meeting on Saturday 16th November. Once all the details (venue etc...) have been finalized, all the Aberdeen Crew will be contacted!

I am sure all the Beginners who join in Aberdeen / Glasgow after November will be very grateful! :cheers:
Not to mention the respective teams of taxi-dancers who will of course have a fabulous day and get a free lunch in the process! Well, not much of a help to me though? Any chance you could suggest to Scot that he does something similar for Dundee and Edinburgh although I realise he's got a lot to do at the moment organising Musselburgh.................:cheers:

[Heather]

:sick: Lorna, I suggest you read Emmas comment earlier in the thread, then you will see that she suggested that the 'teaching ', of those in most need (I was assuming by that she was meaning in the school system)was usually done by those with the least training ie Learning Support Teachers. I then pointed out to her , the excellent qualifications of our Scottish Learning Support Teachers. However,she may have been referring to the Ceroc model of the Teacher taking the beginner class en masse, followed up by the Taxi dancers 'teaching' the beginners, ie, 'those most in need', in small groups(or very large groups if you are in Dundee!!) In which case, I concluded that she may well be correct, or not!!!!!
Either way theres no need to get in a strop!!:wink: I am qite sure that Ceroc Teachers are well trained and very qualified, but as a teacher yourself you will surely concede that, its not really ideal learning conditions to have a class of 50-60 people, and ensure that each of these pupils is learning at his own level and acheiving his full potential.That's why we fought for, and are still fighting for smaller class sizes, we might as well turn back the clock!!!!
However, Ceroc might well fly in the face of established teaching methods!!!!!:wink: :wink:
I would doubt if any Ceroc teacher could specify all the beginners names, let alone their individual skill and level in the moves taught on any particular Ceroc night.
I think Ceroc are well aware of this, otherwise , why would beginners be actively encouraged to attend beginners workshops, where the numbers are small and limited and the teaching more group/individual orientated ?
I hope that's enough clarification for you on my particular point of view, I still want to hear a reply from Emma, regarding her comments, though!!



:cheers:
Heather

[Heather]

:wink: Just re-read my post and want to add , I am well aware that it is not the taxi dancers job to 'Teach' the beginners, but the reality of a situation is somewhat different from the intention.
In Dundee, as Sheena pointed out previously, the beginners are extremely demanding and expect to be taught!! I am sure they think that the Taxi dancers are teachers/instructors whatever you may like to call them, and this is further enforced by the teacher saying 'the Taxi dancers are there for you',implying that their prime function is to spend the next hour entirely at their disposal 'teaching/ going over the moves', whatever you want to call it, in small groups.
I maintain that the best way to reinforce the moves taught, is to by all means go over the moves with the Taxi dancers , but also to practice with other, more experienced dancers in Freestyle. Beginners dancing with each other is a bit like the blind leading the blind.However, this does not seem to be happening in Dundee, the beginners go out into the foyer area to redo the moves taught in the class and then go home. Very few beginners stay for the Freesytyle!!!
:cheers:
Heather ( IN a ranting and raving mood this morning!!!!!):wink:

[Lorna]

Originally posted by Heather
:sick: Lorna, I suggest you read Emmas comment earlier in the thread, then you will see that she suggested that the 'teaching ', of those in most need (I was assuming by that she was meaning in the school system)was usually done by those with the least training ie Learning Support Teachers. I then pointed out to her , the excellent qualifications of our Scottish Learning Support Teachers. However,she may have been referring to the Ceroc model of the Teacher taking the beginner class en masse, followed up by the Taxi dancers 'teaching' the beginners, ie, 'those most in need', in small groups(or very large groups if you are in Dundee!!) In which case, I concluded that she may well be correct, or not!!!!!
Either way theres no need to get in a strop!!:wink: I am qite sure that Ceroc Teachers are well trained and very qualified, but as a teacher yourself you will surely concede that, its not really ideal learning conditions to have a class of 50-60 people, and ensure that each of these pupils is learning at his own level and acheiving his full potential.That's why we fought for, and are still fighting for smaller class sizes, we might as well turn back the clock!!!!
However, Ceroc might well fly in the face of established teaching methods!!!!!:wink: :wink:
I would doubt if any Ceroc teacher could specify all the beginners names, let alone their individual skill and level in the moves taught on any particular Ceroc night.
I think Ceroc are well aware of this, otherwise , why would beginners be actively encouraged to attend beginners workshops, where the numbers are small and limited and the teaching more group/individual orientated ?
I hope that's enough clarification for you on my particular point of view, I still want to hear a reply from Emma, regarding her comments, though!!



:cheers:
Heather Good night was it?

Well done for catching that spanner, you may have guessed that I'm new to posting and am amazed by the emotions that are stirred up so easily, :mad: Have a nice day! :cool:

love lornax-x

[Graham]

Good grief! Gus - I hope you're satisfied with the activity you have generated! Too quiet indeed!

Anyway, I think there have been several main issues discussed on this thread:

1. Do Ceroc classes teach anybody anything?
- As I discussed in my previous post, in my opinion they do an excellent job of taking most people from the standard of novice to intermediate.

2. Are Ceroc classes flawed because they do not seem to be able to take people from the standard of intermediate to a more advanced standard?
- I don't think so. As Franck has mentioned, the Ceroc infrastructure for doing this is through workshops. Let's face it, you wouldn't expect to become an expert in anything else simply by attending large mixed-ability classes. If you went to a conversational French class, for example, then I would expect that you would be able to progress from the standard of novice to the standard of someone who could communicate adequately in day-to-day situations. I would NOT expect you to become fluent, or to develop a gallic accent. People who do become fluent do so either by living in a French-speaking country or by having very intensive teaching with people who are themselves fluent.

3. Is there something wrong with modern jive teaching which means that you have to go "outside" to get better (eg lindyhop, salsa)
- Again, I don't think so. As Franck has also pointed out, it is a fundamental feature of modern jive that it is flexible and allows a very great deal of individual interpretation and variation, compared to, say, ballroom. When most of us think of people who are "outstanding" dancers, I'm sure that a large part of what makes most of them look so good is that they are incorporating style/variations from other dance forms which most of us wouldn't have thought of. In any case, Gus's original point that the good dancers were the same as two years ago is hardly surprising. He was talking about people who have either got bucketloads of natural talent or have spent a very long time practising. In either case I wouldn't have expected there to be a huge turnover within a period of two years.

4. Do/should taxi dancers teach?
- Like it or not, taxi dancers do teach. Beginners are specifically told to ask them for help, and unless they don't answer these questions they are teaching. Whether they do it very well is another question, and not one I feel qualified (or safe :wink: ) to answer. At least Franck is now going to have some training with them which should introduce a consistent approach.

5. Could Ceroc classes be any better in developing intermediate dancers than they are currently, without losing any of the things which make them good at teaching beginners and catering for social dancers?
- Absolutely yes. I notice that nearly everyone who has posted on this thread is either a teacher or in this "intermediate" category. Here's my suggestion. Last Wednesday was one of the best intermediate classes I've done. The reason was that two of the moves were lifted from H's workshop, so I already knew them. Having only two new moves to learn I found I was able to do the whole routine without any problem, and in fact only made one "terminal" mistake (ie one which interrupted the flow of the move) in the whole class. The penny suddenly dropped that the reason I normally found it difficult was that I was having to remember the entire sequence of movements, as opposed to simply remembering which order they were in like in the beginner class. Wendy suggested this before, but I think I would be able to get more out of the intermediate class if it wasn't always four complex/new moves, but perhaps two of these, and two which were merely variations of beginner moves, or even actually beginner's moves but with a style component. Although it seems as if you would learn fewer moves, I think you would actually REMEMBER more of them to be able to do in freestyle.

[Emma]

Ok, chaps, let's clear something up. Horribly off topic, but I guess that's my fault for mixing business with pleasure.

I'm an English primary school teacher and ex-SENco. When I read Heather's comments about 'Learning Support Teachers' I wrongly assumed she was referring to 'Learning Support Assistants', which is the latest euphamism here for a classroom helper. In England these people have very little training and are extremely poorly paid. They are however often the backbone of the Special Needs department, frequently giving full-time support to statemented children (ie, those in most need). I am extremely pleased to hear that this situation doesn't exist in Scotland.

I'll get back under my rock now. If anyone sees me commenting about education again, slap me. :sad:

[Curtain]

By the way Lorna, I was only joking!! I probably should have made that more obvious.

Whoops!!

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
Come to think of it, where's DaveB? He can usually be relied on to have a sage contribution on subjects like this. I've been on holiday learning how to play golf. I now know what I'm doing wrong, but that doesn't mean I can do it right. (Sounds a lot like my dancing)

Interesting thread - it seems most people are happy with the way Modern Jive turns absolute beginners into reasonable intermediate dancers, and makes it very enjoyable in the process. Without a doubt it is better at this than any other form of dancing I've seen.

It also seems that some (but not all) intermediate dancers want to develop their dancing, but find that Modern Jive doesn't do this as well as they had hoped.

Taxi dancers for intermediates seems like a good idea. How about asking the intermediates themselves for suggestions on who they would like? And what would you call them - chauffeur dancers? Limo dancers?

A regular advanced class would be ideal, but they don't seem to be financially viable. Workshops are good, but how many people maintain a real improvement several weeks later? Why not have a short 'advanced' course, say 6 weeks long, where you can teach things like style and interpretation (and dare I say technique?) It would give you a chance to learn something new each week, and get reinforcement of what you did before.

David

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
Why not have a short 'advanced' course, say 6 weeks long, where you can teach things like style and interpretation (and dare I say technique?) It would give you a chance to learn something new each week, and get reinforcement of what you did before.

David Knew I could count on you to give some perspective on the situation.

The idea appeals. I remeber hearing a rumour that Nigel and Nina had run something similar on the South Coast about 18 months ago ... word was it was on the basis of by invitation only, addressing the cream of the crop.

I think its could work ... the main stumbling block(s) being sufficicent number of good enough/motivated enough dancers who also have the time to give up. Other than that its a brilliant, cunning plan Baldrick!


PS: Re holiday ... please remember to get permission from Uncle Franck before you skive off the Forum next time!

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
Why not have a short 'advanced' course, say 6 weeks long, where you can teach things like style and interpretation (and dare I say technique?) It would give you a chance to learn something new each week, and get reinforcement of what you did before.An excellent summary of the (now really long) thread... Welcome back David, and as Gus said, make sure you give notice before going on holiday again :wink:

Regarding the above, I agree that this would be great, but as you mention, time and financial viability could make it difficult to organize... :sad:

One of the possible problems, is a misconception re. workshops (from Beginners to Style). Most people assume that once they have done a workshop, they can either stop then or move on to the next level.
From my experience, it is much better to treat workshops as something you should do every 2/3 of months (or more often!), repeating the same workshops several times, as many people have mentioned, you are unlikely to remember everything you learnt at any give workshop, but by repeating it a few months later, you actually learn twice as much, twice as fast!
This would have the same effect as your suggestion without forcing a (limited) number of people to all attend at once.

The problem I have is that when I mention that, people usually assume I am just trying to sell more workshops! :really:
While this is true up to a point, I really believe that many (repeated) workshops is the fastest / easiest way to improving your dancing to the next level. In particular, I would recommend that most "Intermediate" Cerocers book themselves into a Beginners course, you would be surprised how many bad habits you have... :nice:

Franck.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Franck
you would be surprised how many bad habits you have... :nice:
Au contraire: depressed perhaps, but not surprised!:wink:

[Jon]

I totally agree with Frank and I'm not a teacher (although I wouldn't mind the job) so you can believe me.

I have done so many workshops now that I have actually lost count, all I know is it's well over 20 (did one this weekend). I've done all the beginner, intermediate and style workshops twice.

The first time you do a workshop you will leave having learnt some of the moves and be able to freestyle them confidently. Do it a second time and you will learn most if not all of the moves and be technically accurate in executing them. You'll find they become easier to do and that you can actually concentrate on the style points for each move and not the move itself.

It's doing the workshop a second time where I usually get the most benefit and I find my dancing improves alot more.

As for the beginner workshops these should be done by every one who's learning. After all they are the foundation that the intermediate moves are built on. Getting these technically accuracte makes the intermediate moves so much easier to learn, let alone the advanced stuff. It's the level of teaching on the cerocshops that make you a better dancer quickly as they cover so much more than you would be taught in an evening class.

One of my Ceroc teachers calls me 'Mr Technical' now.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Jon
I have done so many workshops now that I have actually lost count, all I know is it's well over 20 (did one this weekend). I've done all the beginner, intermediate and style workshops twice.

/SNIP lots of useful advice/

One of my Ceroc teachers calls me 'Mr Technical' now. Well Mr Technical, there is a name for your condition: "Ceroc-aholism", unfortunately, there is no cure at present, but with help you can manage your addiction :wink:

On a serious note, over 20 might be on the extreme side!
My recommendation would be to do a Beginners workshop in the first 12/16 weeks of learning Ceroc (but not before you have attended a couple of classes first). Then take a couple of months to practise what you learnt and doing the Intermediate class. Then do a couple of Intermediate workshops in the first 12/18 months. After that, I would recommend going back to a Beginners workshop again (you might be able to get a discount if you phone at the last minute and help balancing numbers :wink: ).
After that, try and do a Style or Intermediate workshop every six months and your dancing will progress beyond expectations!

This might seem like a lot, but it is only 2/3 workshops per year, and this is only for those of you that really want to work on your dancing. Most of us will manage to become perfectly good after 6 months of dancing and maybe a Beginners workshop! :wink:

Franck.

[Bill]

Originally posted by Franck
[After that, try and do a Style or Intermediate workshop every six months and your dancing will progress beyond expectations!

This might seem like a lot, but it is only 2/3 workshops per year, and this is only for those of you that really want to work on your dancing. Most of us will manage to become perfectly good after 6 months of dancing and maybe a Beginners workshop! :wink:

Franck. [/B]

I think this has been touched on before but I don't know if I agree with this Frank. As someone else mentioned earlier there will be some dancers who, for different reasons, won't really pick up any style however long they dance - but they can still have a great time. There are others who would not gain a great deal by repeating a beginner's class or even a style workshop when they have been dancing for a couple of years.

It ties a few comments and threads together I suppose. What is an experienced dancer and where do they go to improve ?:confused: Those dancers who really want to improve will 'devour' all the normal Ceroc workshops and then look for more but as Ceroc is not about technique - or always about real style - more style workshops would only be helpful if there were more of them and each one concentrated on very specific areas. There were ( are?) two differnt workshops and they were very good and I don't know many people who wouldn't admit that they could still improve their dancing :nice:

Top up classes are a good idea as it's so easy to forget and however good a workshop is most of us will only remember and use a fraction of what we learn. Last year I did a V& L workshop twice within a month or two and the second time was great as I already knew the basics but could concentrate on the more subtle style points. I can even remember a couple of the moves :D

Goodness I feel like a workshop........................

[Gus]

Hmmmm ... think, as usual, the truth may lie in the middle ground. More workshops can be good for dancers who want to improve ... at whatever level ... but there are limits to what you can achieve through workshops. A someone who runs workshops it pains me to say it but workshops are NOT the answer! The way to progress is to practice your moves with a regular partner(s).

I now only do a couple of workshops a year as I STILL havn't assimilated all the points fomr the Viktor/Lydia workshop from lats year (and probably not even from the 2000 workshop). when I go to Jivespree now I do less and watch more.

The biggest development in my dancing has come through noteing all the key points, finding the ones that suit my style, practising with a couple of dance partners, videoing the results, getting majorly depressed and swear never to dance ever again, get back on the dance floor and slowly the changes come.


Having said that ... ignoring the improvement in dance style ... workshops can actualy be great fun. I would recommend even advanced danecrs going back to do Beginners cerocshops ... surprising what you pick up!!

Personal view entirely.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
Hmmmm ... think, as usual, the truth may lie in the middle ground. Are you feeling ok Gus??? :what: Middle ground? If you don't watch it I will have to strip you of your Official Devil's Advocate title! :devil:

Originally posted by Gus
I now only do a couple of workshops a year as I STILL havn't assimilated all the points fomr the Viktor/Lydia workshop from lats year (and probably not even from the 2000 workshop). Well, I agree, and it is nigh on impossible to assimilate all the points, but you do have to pick and choose, and every time you repeat a particular workshop, you build on the points you had assimilated from the previous one.
Originally posted by Gus
The biggest development in my dancing has come through noteing all the key points, finding the ones that suit my style, practising with a couple of dance partners, videoing the results, getting majorly depressed and swear never to dance ever again, get back on the dance floor and slowly the changes come. This is so true. The first thing is to identify the Style points that either suit you or the ones that you are ready for. Trying to include Style points that do not fit your dancing style, body or current level of ability can be counter-productive. Once you have done that and if you survive the "I can't do this and never will" Phase :sad: then a lot of regular practise and voila! New style.

I fear we are in danger of agreeing there, so maybe you should start a new thread / topic where we can have a proper 'discussion' :wink:

Franck.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck
Are you feeling ok Gus??? :what: Middle ground? If you don't watch it I will have to strip you of your Official Devil's Advocate title! :devil:

I fear we are in danger of agreeing there, so maybe you should start a new thread / topic where we can have a proper 'discussion' :wink:

Franck.

Franck, your fears are without substance. I've got a weekend of doing too many things, a headcold and I KNOW that at the Saturday night freestyle I'll be requested to play Sophie Catface and other such drivel .... so I'll be just in the mood to post something REALLY contentious.

The idea has nearly taken form and this time the target is .... 'southern ceroc teachers/franchisees' ... that should stir up some controvesy:devil: :devil:

Ahh the power of the vitriol pen......

[Dancing Veela]

I think the thing that improved my style most (although some would say WHAT STYLE?????!!!!!) was dancing with a regular partner where we both learned moves together and actually practised them over and over again until we had them right.

Going to workshops gives you the ideas for the style you may long to have, but only by practising them will you actually improve.

Now that I no longer have a regular partner :tears: I'll just have to practise on other people................:grin:

[Bill]

Originally posted by Dancing Veela
I think the thing that improved my style most (although some would say WHAT STYLE?????!!!!!
was dancing with a regular partner where we both learned moves together and actually practised them over and over again until we had them right.

Now that I no longer have a regular partner :tears: I'll just have to practise on other people................:grin: Now who on earth would say you have no style ?:D :p who would dare:wink:

But you are right...........you can learn a great deal at a workshop but unless you have someone to keep going over the moves with then they slip away and there's no time to really practice them till you feel they look OK. Even better I suppose if your dance partner goes to the same venue ;)


Dancing all night is great fun but it's hardly the time or place to stop and go over moves and try to work out why they didn't work. As someone mentioned earlier - a mirror and/or a camera will give you a glimpse of what the moves look like.

I suppos eone good thing about competitions ( the only good thing :confused: :wink: ) is that they make us take time to go over some moves and try to do them smoothly but I found that by the time the comp comes along I've forgotten the moves anyway.........:sick: ..........on which note best of luck to everyone for the Scottish Comp..........sure everyone will have fun and really looking forward to seeing the other teams.