Place in a competition and you move up?

[DavidB]

according to the consensus that seems to say "place and you move up".Did we ever get a consensus?

[Emma]

Next level of what? :flower:

[Divissima]

I don't think we did get a consensus - but for what it's worth, I think it should be top three who should move up. Or possibly all finalists. I think only to move up winners doesn't encourage much through-flow of dancers out of intermediate to advanced, and then advanced to open.

Or maybe we might have instead, or in addition, more categories - beginner, rising star, intermediate, advanced classical, advanced standard, open. The categories would have different rules re. airsteps and eligibility. But, *sheesh* then you'd have to define what it means to be an intermediate, advanced, etc. dancer.

My personal view, after following and participating in many debates on the forum and elsewhere on this precise subject, is that it is simply easiest to define and police if the rules define eligibility in terms of placing in previous competitions (or maybe on whether someone is a teacher). It certainly isn't perfect, but it is capable of objective verification - you either have or haven't placed/been a finalist, and trying to define what an intermediate/advanced dancer is would be far too complicated, and open to subjective interpretation.

[Emma]

Consensus for WHAT? :tears:

[charlie_no_socks]

I think only to move up winners doesn't encourage much through-flow of dancers out of intermediate to advanced, and then advanced to open.

Don't forget there is something like 5 competitions in the UK now! Assuming that you have to move up as soon as you win one competition, that is 5 couples every year that have to move up, which I think is quite a lot! If it were all the finalists that would be something like 25 couples a year. Advanced would get kind of crowded pretty quickly and the standard of int level would drop very fast.

[Emma]

I worked it out :)

[Divissima]

Don't forget there is something like 5 competitions in the UK now! Assuming that you have to move up as soon as you win one competition, that is 5 couples every year that have to move up, which I think is quite a lot! If it were all the finalists that would be something like 25 couples a year. Advanced would get kind of crowded pretty quickly and the standard of int level would drop very fast.I take your point, Charlie, and I guess we are in danger of introducing another level of complication by implying some distinction between major/national comps and 'regional' comps. I'm not sure that there is a meaningful distinction between these two categories. I assume that the five you refer to are Blackpool Chance 2 Dance, Hammersmith Ceroc, Bristol/Weston-super-Mare LeRoc, Scotland Ceroc and Brighton Britroc? I'm sure there are at least a few others which you could count (eg Jive Masters) and you could extend the rule to cover international competitions (Australia, New Zealand), even though all this would get a bit complicated!!

I guess it's a matter of personal opinion - to me five couples moving up doesn't sound like enough, although 25 maybe sounds like too many! One other possibility which appeals to me is the one suggested by Bill and SpinDr, if memory serves, whereby a competitor or couple get a 'season' (full competition calendar I think the idea was) after they place (or win, or however you want to work it) to stay down at that level (unless they voluntarily move up earlier). At the end of that season they have to move up to the next category. That way you would probably get some duplication of placing within the competitions so that the number of people moving up wasn't as high as 15 (ie. 3 placings times 5 competitions), or 25 (say five finalists times 5 comps)

Have I ceased to make any kind of sense?? :sick: Roll on the weekend, I say. Just re-read this and edited to try to make it worth reading.

[Gadget]

is there any occasion that it's acceptable to move down?

[David Franklin]

I guess it's a matter of personal opinion - to me five couples moving up doesn't sound like enough, although 25 maybe sounds like too many! One other possibility which appeals to me is the one suggested by Bill and SpinDr, if memory serves, whereby a competitor or couple get a 'season' (full competition calendar I think the idea was) after they place (or win, or however you want to work it) to stay down at that level (unless they voluntarily move up earlier).That's my favourite possibility. It also avoids the potential problem of a couple being entered in, say, Intermediate at Hammersmith & Blackpool, placing at Blackpool, so having to move up to Advanced @ Hammersmith, who unfortunately say "Oh, but advanced is full already - sorry!".

I'd be inclined to make it a year (or maybe 6 months) from the date they placed - I'm not really sure where the start/end of "the season" is, and I do think not having to suddenly change category (as might happen if you won the last event of the season) is a good thing.

Dave

[CJ]

For what it's worth...

I think placed, but like the season idea.

:waycool:

[ChrisA]

is there any occasion that it's acceptable to move down?I reckon so.

If you place, move up, and fail to get past the first round at the next level up for some period of time (a year? two years?), then the situation at the lower level may have completely changed - everyone seems to be saying how good the standard of the intermediates is now compared with a couple of years ago, for instance.

So you could reasonably move back down and see how you get on, IMHO.

But it would be fairly rare, I'd guess. Most people get better, and hopefully, being placed at a lower level should mean that you're at least capable of getting past the first round at the next one up after not too long at the higher level.

Chris

[RobC]

Without wanting to get into the "this competition is better / has higher standard, than that competition" argument, not all competitions are the same. You can't possibly say in one competitions rules that the entry criteria is based on what happened at another organisers' event when there is no standard or consistency between events. Case in point, advanced category in one competition is not the same as an advanced category in another competition.

The only was this kind of "win/be placed and move up" rule can possibly work is between events organised by the same people. At this point in time, as far as I'm aware, noone organises more than one competition a year, which means your rule can only be defined as "a win at last year's XXXX Competition, or any previous year's, then you move up"

[Gus]

The only was this kind of "win/be placed and move up" rule can possibly work is between events organised by the same people. At this point in time, as far as I'm aware, noone organises more than one competition a year, which means your rule can only be defined as "a win at last year's XXXX Competition, or any previous year's, then you move up"
Think the Australian Ceroc outfits already have this situation ruled, stipulated, enforced and sorted. sure its on their website somewhere. Oracle .. care to comment?

[Martin]

Think the Australian Ceroc outfits already have this situation ruled, stipulated, enforced and sorted. sure its on their website somewhere. Oracle .. care to comment?

Not much of an oracle but here goes...

Aussie = placed, move up within one calendar year.

IMHO, first = move up within one calendar year.

[Katie]

I think the winners should move up to the next category. For the finalists, i think it is reasonable for them to enter the same category again, hoping for a better placing. Just because a couple have reached the finals doesn't mean that they will do as well or better next time, particularly with standards rising. I know the likelihood of doing well is greater than another couple who had not reached the finals but knowing that those couples will be entering will surely make others work harder????

Some couples may be happy with getting to the finals and then moving up but what about those who want to win first?? Do people suggest that finalists should still move up and only get a chance of winning the top category?? For some couples, that would be unlikely if the current superstars continued to enter.

If there were more categories (like Divi suggested) i would be more inclined to think that finalists should move up. However, my opinion may change as the debate continues and the more competitions i watch.

[ChrisA]

The only was this kind of "win/be placed and move up" rule can possibly work is between events organised by the same people. At this point in time, as far as I'm aware, noone organises more than one competition a year, which means your rule can only be defined as "a win at last year's XXXX Competition, or any previous year's, then you move up"
Who said anything about rules?

I don't expect rules to start being based on anything except the loosely defined whims of the organisers for a long time :devil:

When I talked about consensus, I was referring to my impression that I've formed over the last 5 months, of people's views about fair play.

I agree with Kate that there's a debate to be had about whether it should just be the winners, or first three, but the poll does seem to suggest that such a view is fairly prevalent. That said, Greg and Kate were only 10 points behind James and Melanie at Blackpool, so there was virtually nothing separating them. Personally I think that supports my view that it's the first three that should move up.

Chris

[Sheepman]

That said, Greg and Kate were only 10 points behind James and Melanie at Blackpool, so there was virtually nothing separating them. Having watched the DVD, I'm inclined to think I should stay where I am :devil: :wink: (ie not venture out of my chair, and nowhere near a competition). Kate was fantastic of course.

There has been no mention in the debate about changes of partners. IMO for most dancers, you cannot relate working together with a partner for years, to then dancing with a new partner and expecting the same level of understanding and expertise, especially if that new partner is at a different level. OK I accept that such rules have to apply to the more successful half of the partnership, but does this discourage those who like to dance in competitions with different partners? I know of one partnership that was very successful, but I think it will be a long time before one of these dancers is likely to find success with their new partner, even at a lower category.

Greg

[Divissima]

Not all competitions are the same. You can't possibly say in one competitions rules that the entry criteria is based on what happened at another organisers' event when there is no standard or consistency between events.Case in point, advanced category in one competition is not the same as an advanced category in another competition.I see what you are saying here, Rob. Especially as there isn't a standardisation of categories between events as you say, but I'm not sure I agree. Most of the competitions that I know of have completely open entry (so that, provided competitors are prepared to travel and incur the necessary costs, any couple can enter any competition). Not many couples enter all competitions every year, but many enter more than one (this is my impression - not based on any empirical evidence). Surely this provides a degree of standardisation and consistency to the competitions (ie. the individuals entering)?

I think I've only made half of my point there, but I need to go away and think about it in order to stand any chance of being coherent. I wish there was some way to save a post and come back to edit it later before posting.... :sad:

[ChrisA]

I wish there was some way to save a post and come back to edit it later before posting.... :sad:
I have a Word doc on my 'puter that I use for that very purpose.

:flower:

[ChrisA]

Having watched the DVD, I'm inclined to think I should stay where I am :devil: :wink: (ie not venture out of my chair, and nowhere near a competition).
That would be my preference too :clap:

Though please stay in the intermediates now, if you like. We won't have to compete against you if you do :rofl: :devil:

[Sheepman]

Though please stay in the intermediates now, if you like. Sorry, too late for that - I already have my reservation and ticket. :wink:

Greg

[cerocmetro]

I've read through this and hope I am not repeating but I think one very important factor has been missed. You seem to be assuming that all the organisers recognise each other.

I would doubt very much if Ceroc would recognise the results of another competition. Whilst this may appear a little an**, there is a strong case for it. The obvious being Mickey Mouse (no offence Minnie :worthy: ) outfits runnng competitions and becoming recognised as a real event when it was an amateur shambles.

I agree that certainlky within a competition the winners should be moved up, but is it the couple or each person, eg Clayton takes a new partner who is a beginner?

In the JiveMasters, (have I mentioned the video of last year is available at only £12.50 ceroc@hotmail.com), everyone is a winner so where do we go? What is the next level up, not being allowed to compete at all?

Adam

[Emma]

Cor, £12.50: bargain! :wink:

[Dance Demon]

I think...FWIW.....as someone who does not compete (apart from the occasional fun comp :D )...that there needs to be some refining of categories.
Re intermediate and advanced, I think these should be open only to non teachers ( i.e. people who do not teach for a living) Having watched the blackpool comp for the last two years, It seems to me that there are certain couples who set the standard in the advanced section, and the places always seem to go to them. So a seperate section for the likes of Clayton & Janine, Will & Kate, Lily & David, Victor &partner, Amir & Partner et al.....would let all those who we all aspire to be like some day battle it out.
The advance section wouldthen become less daunting to people who dance as a passtime and don't do it as a living. For Example... James & melanie were awesome when winning the intermediates at Blackpool, but when it comes to competing in the advanced against dancers of the calibre of say Clayton & Janine the task must seem quite daunting...well it would be to me...
Just a thought...though I'm sure there will be arguments against it :D

[DavidB]

The obvious being Mickey Mouse outfits runnng competitions and becoming recognised as a real event when it was an amateur shambles.Good point. What would constitute such a 'bad' competition? This is a selection of comments I've heard over the last few years.
- unsuitable venue
- poor lighting
- poor music
- poor floor
- poor scheduling
- inexperienced judges
- lack of transparency in the marking
- inefficient production of the results

So many improvements are being made in events at the moment that it is not fair to judge an organisation on anything but their most recent event. For some organisations (including Ceroc) this is just as well. It is also a sign of how much work organisers are putting in to improve their events.

On this basis I don't think there are any 'Mickey Mouse' competitions at the moment.

One thing I can't argue with - I could never imagine Ceroc recognising the results of a Leroc competition!

[Katie]

That said, Greg and Kate were only 10 points behind James and Melanie at Blackpool, so there was virtually nothing separating them. Personally I think that supports my view that it's the first three that should move up.

Chris

I agree but Blackpool is the only competition that has published the scores of each couple. Without this, it's not possible to see how close it is, so perhaps in doing do, it's a better way to judge whether a 2nd and 3rd placed couple should move up or not. On the other hand if a 3rd and 4th placing are very close, should only the 3rd move up??

Personally i would like to see all competition organisers publish the scores.

[Andy McGregor]

(have I mentioned the Jive Masters video of last year is available at only £12.50 ceroc@hotmail.comAdam

I don't know why, but I think this is great, Adam now has a catch phrase - I want one.

[Jive Brummie]

Personally i would like to see all competition organisers publish the scores.


I agree with Katie on this one. If the scores were published then at least the competitors would have some 'official' feedback as to how they performed, and an indication of areas to improve upon, in time for their next competition.

As for moving up, if you've placed at a regional (once you've decided which comp's are the regional ones), then IMHO you can still compete at that same level. Soon as you get placed at a national, then up you go.....no question.

I see the regional's as being the stepping stones and the confidence builders for the nationals, and the nationals being the confidence builders and stepping stone's to the next level(s). Make any sense????? :confused:

After Blackpool, there was no hesitation in Melanie or I that we'd move up a category......and as DD mentioned earlier, that means competing against the likes of Clayton & Janine, Will & Kate, Victor, Amir etc. We know that any achievements at this level, may take a long time in coming, if ever, but isn't that part of competition......rising to the challenge and doing your level best??

Discuss...... :whistle:

James.......x

[RobC]

I don't know why, but I think this is great, Adam now has a catch phrase - I want one.
Hmm, let me thiink ... yes .... it's coming to me .... how about:

"I don't dance at venues that allow smoking" :D

[Andy McGregor]

Hmm, let me thiink ... yes .... it's coming to me .... how about:

"I don't dance at venues that allow smoking" :D

Reel them in....

[DavidB]

Soon as you get placed at a national, then up you go.....no question.This is all well and good if you placed in the intermediates at Blackpool - you can do the Advanced at Hammersmith, and not the Open.

But what if you placed in the Intermediates at Hammersmith? You are now forced to do the Advanced at Blackpool - along with all the open dancers.

That doesn't seem fair.

Forcing people to go up one level should only be one level.

David

[ChrisA]

This is all well and good if you placed in the intermediates at Blackpool - you can do the Advanced at Hammersmith, and not the Open.

But what if you placed in the Intermediates at Hammersmith? You are now forced to do the Advanced at Blackpool - along with all the open dancers.

That doesn't seem fair.

Forcing people to go up one level should only be one level.This, IMHO, is more about the absence of an Open cat at Blackpool, than it is about the ethics (sorry Rob) of whether a dancer should move up or not.

No one is disputing that with no Open, the Advanced at Blackpool is very daunting for advanced dancers who are forced to compete with the superstars. But no more so than for intermediates forced to compete with advanced dancers who choose not to move up. Personally I feel that daunted or not, a placing in a national comp should be treated as marching orders - and if the Advanced at Blackpool is hard, tough. Clamour for a new category at Blackpool by all means, but no weaselling out of doing the right (IMO) thing.

As Melanie and James are doing, and as indeed Jayne and I are doing although our recent placing at Hammersmith isn't on the level of Melanie and James' achievement in March.

We feel incredibly daunted by the prospect of moving up now that we've placed - as we do about being involved as anything other than spectators in JiveMasters...

...but surely there should be more to it than just one's prospects of short-term achievement?

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

I still haven't found out what people think about changed partnerships.

What would people think if someone like Sheepster entered the intermediate with a competition virgin? My own opinion is that it would be OK but some people might not be so generous.

Also, what level should I enter at as a follower?

And, let's hear a bit more rationale on this thread rather than edicts.

[RobC]

This, IMHO, is more about the absence of an Open cat at Blackpool, than it is about the ethics (sorry Rob) of whether a dancer should move up or not.
No need to appologise Chris. I'm sure everyone knows by now that we agree to disagree on many things :kiss:



No one is disputing that with no Open, the Advanced at Blackpool is very daunting for advanced dancers who are forced to compete with the superstars. But no more so than for intermediates forced to compete with advanced dancers who choose not to move up. Personally I feel that daunted or not, a placing in a national comp should be treated as marching orders - and if the Advanced at Blackpool is hard, tough. Clamour for a new category at Blackpool by all means, but no weaselling out of doing the right (IMO) thing.

Personally I am still struggling to understand why some people are fixated on having more than 2 categories at a national competition. The main category can only ever be one which is completely open to all competitors, whether you call it Advanced at Blackpool, or Open at Ceroc etc.

And I am fully behind having a second category (which for the sake of this post I will refer to as a Beginners category - not that I am implying it should only be for beginner dancers) for couples that are new to competing, which is only fair to exclude teachers from so that the new competitors do not feel intimidated by having to dance alongside the people that have been teaching them.

However, why do people feel the need to complicate things with a 3rd, or 4th category (which is not open to all competitors ) ? Is it because you want to win / be placed ? If so, work harder or stay down in the 'beginners' category for longer. With fewer categories, it makes the management and organisation of the competition a lot easier. The organisers can fit in more heats / cut less people per heat because they will have more time available, meaning that most people will get to dance more and get more enjoyment out of the day.

I have seen this trend of adding more and more categories to competitions before in the student inter-varsity circuit. It got so bad with so many different categories and heats to have to cram into the day, that the timetable just kept on getting longer and longer. I didn't go to the nationals this year, but in previous years, it was not uncommon for the day to be over 12 hours of solid competitions (with very few breaks in between for freestyle / social dances). I'm sure that noone wants to see MJ competitions go that way ! I mean, doors open at 10.30, competitons starting first heats by 11am, and still running through finals at 11pm :really: Where's the fun in that ? :confused:

[ChrisA]

What would people think if someone like Sheepster entered the intermediate with a competition virgin? My own opinion is that it would be OK but some people might not be so generous.

It's not as clear cut, this, in my mind at least... but I can't imagine someone of Sheepy's standard entering a competition with anyone who wasn't a very good dancer. So I would find it hard to see such a partnership as less advanced just because the lady hadn't competed before. If Greg ever does enter a competition with someone who doesn't look great and dance really well, maybe ask me again :D



Also, what level should I enter at as a follower?Dunno, have you placed as one? An interesting question... you're a far better follower than most guys, but nowhere near as good as when you're dancing as leader. So I would struggle to see you above intermediate level as a follower (JMHO).



And, let's hear a bit more rationale on this thread rather than edicts.

What edicts? Strong opinions, as elsewhere, from most that have a view, but no edicts (and how boring would it be here if people didn't have strong opinions and express them?). The rationale for moving up has been given loads of times - to provide a challenge, to ensure throughput as new dancers join the competition scene, and to encourage a level playing field.

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

If Greg ever does enter a competition with someone who doesn't look great and dance really well, maybe ask me again :D
Chris

How soon they forget. Greg entered the old gits with me :whistle:

[TheTramp]

I still haven't found out what people think about changed partnerships.

What would people think if someone like Sheepster entered the intermediate with a competition virgin? My own opinion is that it would be OK but some people might not be so generous.I'm afraid that I'm one of those people who wouldn't be that generous.

Everyone has a choice about whom they are going to enter a competition with. No-one is forcing you to enter a competition with someone who is not a good dancer, or who is a competition virgin.

So, I still think that you should enter at the level of the best dancer.

Trampy

[ChrisA]

How soon they forget. Greg entered the old gits with me :whistle:So he did... and you did look great :devil:

[Andy McGregor]

Everyone has a choice about whom they are going to enter a competition with.

Ok, so I choose to enter with Kate (either one!). Surprise, surprise, they don't want to enter with me:tears:

As in many things in life, we sometimes have to settle: our ideal partner might be too far away: not think we're good enough for them:tears: : have a boyfriend/husband/girlfriend/wife who doesn't like the idea: or even, as the Tramp found once, be really weird:sick:

So we try to find a balance and take a partner for fun, which is what competitions are all about IMHO. They may not be the best partner but you do have fun with them. So now you've got a partnership that has fun but isn't dancing to the level of the best partner but the least good.

As one of my friends told me recently about disco gear. It's only as good as it's worst component. And I think the same could be said about dance partnerships. And I think no less an authority than DavidB has said something very similar - although it might have been that the partnership is only as good as the woman - which probably applies to everything, not just dancing :whistle:

[TheTramp]

Yeah?

And I can't find a regular partner to compete with at my level either.

But that still doesn't change my view...

Trampy

[Gus]

But what if you placed in the Intermediates at Hammersmith? You are now forced to do the Advanced at Blackpool - along with all the open dancers.
David
Far be it from mr to disagee with the Oracle ... BUT:devil:

There are only really two categories....


those that want to compete with the best
those that don't .
.. end of story.

Anyone want to point any flaws in this argument?

[DavidB]

Anyone want to point any flaws in this argument?
I think you did once - basically saying competitions aren't just about competing:


15th-June-2003
they motivate dancers to improve both their style and repertoire, they are the catalyst for the development of new moves and styles, they bring new dancers to the attention of a greater audience and they make for a great showcase of the better aspects of modern jive.
{snip}
we should all keep in mind its just for fun

[ElaineB]

Simon and I had a long debate over this one! We came sixth at Blackpool in the intermediates this year. We then bombed out of the first round of the intermediates at Hammersmith and I came second in DWAS with wonderful, wonderful Bill. :worthy:

Personally, I would have liked to have a season at intermediates, especially after our intermediate entry at Hammersmith and this also being my first season with Simon. However, having reached the final at Blackpool and me getting second place at Hammersmith (me being the inexperienced one!), we have decided to move into 'Advanced'.

Our minds were really made up when we read the entry criteria for Bristol. It would not be fair on the other entrants if we entered at intermdiate level as this appears to be aimed at those with less than twelve months experience.

So, Chris, Jayne, Gregg and all - we just can't escape each other - we were meant to be........... :rofl:


Elaine

[Gus]

I think you did once - basically saying competitions aren't just about competing:
Ahhh but that was only a personal view. MANY people seem to think that they ARE about competitng ... and therefore my 2 stream argument holds true. Besides ... if it is about more than competing .. is the 'more' element still not satisfied by two categories?

[ElaineB]

One thing I can't argue with - I could never imagine Ceroc recognising the results of a Leroc competition!

David,

Please can you elaborate on this comment? Being from Bristol and therefore attending local classes which are Le Roc, I am intriged to know the difference in Ce Roc and Le Roc.

Many thanks


Elaine

[DavidB]

the difference in Ce Roc and Le Roc.
- There isn't any difference in the dance.
- You would be pushed to find any difference in the dancers - ie if you saw someone, or danced with someone, you couldn't tell if they went to Ceroc or Leroc.
- There is no real difference in the way that it is taught. Some people say that Leroc classes have more technique, whereas Ceroc classes are more entertaining, but I have never seen lasting proof of this (ie bored Leroc dancers or a lower average standard in Ceroc dancers)
- There are good & bad Leroc teachers. and good & bad Ceroc teachers. Same with the dancers.
- Ceroc has the CTA, and Leroc has tests run by the UKA.
- Leroc dancers have done well at Ceroc competitions. Ceroc dancers have done well at Leroc competitions.

The only difference is in the organisations, and an unfortunate long history of non-cooperation between the two. This is why many people would be amazed if there was any mutual recognition of competitions.

[ChrisA]

So, Chris, Jayne, Gregg and all - we just can't escape each other - we were meant to be........... :rofl:
Damn. :wink: :innocent: :flower: :devil:

[Andy McGregor]

Yeah?

And I can't find a regular partner to compete with at my level either.

But that still doesn't change my view...

Trampy

It must be really hard to find another beginner that wants to do the Open:wink:

[RobC]

It must be really hard to find another beginner that wants to do the Open:wink:
I'm a beginner (follower) looking for a partner - how about it ? :whistle:

[Andy McGregor]

I'm a beginner (follower) looking for a partner - how about it ? :whistle:

Are you lifting me or am I lifting you?:hernia:

[Martin]

In the JiveMasters, everyone is a winner so where do we go? What is the next level up, not being allowed to compete at all?

Adam

IMHO JiveMasters is totally seperate to open competitions.
It is a great idea (and a useful marketing tool for Ceroc Metro to raise it's profile across the UK), it is however by invite ONLY.

People asked to compete are not neccesarily past advanced winners, but IMHO recognised fab dancers.
For example Phil and Yuko were invited to JiveMasters (and rightly so, as I think they are great) but did not place in the Ceroc UK Hammersmith champs.
This should not put them up a category.

It is all down to "the rules" the organisers put in place for thier comp. If you do not like the rules (or the way it is judged)- it is up to you to enter or not.

If you win at Hamersmith intermediates, IMHO you do advanced next year.

I'm with Trampy, it is the more experienced dancer that determines the category. Teachers whether they like it or not, make a statement to thier students that they have something "extra" to give to them - so off you go to advanced - do not pass, go, do not collect 200...

Personally I would love to dance in comps with less experienced dancers or "comp virgins" Pro-Am categories here we come!

[ElaineB]

- There isn't any difference in the dance.
- You would be pushed to find any difference in the dancers - ie if you saw someone, or danced with someone, you couldn't tell if they went to Ceroc or Leroc.
- There is no real difference in the way that it is taught. Some people say that Leroc classes have more technique, whereas Ceroc classes are more entertaining, but I have never seen lasting proof of this (ie bored Leroc dancers or a lower average standard in Ceroc dancers)
- There are good & bad Leroc teachers. and good & bad Ceroc teachers. Same with the dancers.
- Ceroc has the CTA, and Leroc has tests run by the UKA.
- Leroc dancers have done well at Ceroc competitions. Ceroc dancers have done well at Leroc competitions.

The only difference is in the organisations, and an unfortunate long history of non-cooperation between the two. This is why many people would be amazed if there was any mutual recognition of competitions.

Thanks David,

That's what I thought. Shame about the Political side though. As we have nowt but Le Roc over here, I have not really been aware of it.

One man and dog - company
Two men, each with a dog - company and friendship
Three men and a dog - competition, showing (whose dog/human has the most waggly tail), politics and then war!

If Gorbi and Ronald Regan could get on, surely Ce Roc and Le Roc could hold out the hand of friendship to each other?

No??

I'll go back to eating my pasties and drinking cider then! :rofl:


Elaine

[Emma]

I'll go back to eating my pasties and drinking cider then! :rofl: ...and don't forget to walk the dog! :wink: :grin:

[DavidB]

...and don't forget to walk the dog!Doesn't that count as training for the competition, which is taking it too seriously. Before you know it, there will be diamantes on the collar, and people saying that 'telling your dog to sit' constitutes a choreographed move, and isn't lead & follow.

[David Franklin]

Doesn't that count as training for the competition, which is taking it too seriously. Before you know it, there will be diamantes on the collar, and people saying that 'telling your dog to sit' constitutes a choreographed move, and isn't lead & follow.Surely 'telling your dog to heel' is the true demonstration of lead and follow...?

Of course leading a cat is very different; much closer to the dancing experience. It all works fine as long as you lead them where they wanted to go in the first place...

Dave

[spindr]

Please can you elaborate on this comment? Being from Bristol and therefore attending local classes which are Le Roc, I am intriged to know the difference in Ce Roc and Le Roc.

Actually, Michel Gay used to teach Ceroc in Bristol -- both at the Student's Union and at the church near the Victoria Rooms. Then Ceroc became Ceroc(tm) and Michel's classes became Bristol Le Roc. I believe that a lot of the Bristol classes are somewhat descended from Michel's class, possibly two or three times removed -- e.g. Elmgrove was setup by Crispin originally, who used to go to Michel's classes. Michel and Janet Gay are listed as the treasurer and examinations officer on the LeRoc Federation committee.

I think a Ceroc(tm) class did try setting up in Bristol -- somewhere on "The Triangle" -- I never went (I wasn't happy about signing their agreement) -- and it seemed to disappear quietly after a while.

I think the www.howtojive.com website has some Jive history (as does my own).

SpinDr.

[ElaineB]

Surely 'telling your dog to heel' is the true demonstration of lead and follow...?

Of course leading a cat is very different; much closer to the dancing experience. It all works fine as long as you lead them where they wanted to go in the first place...

Dave

:D :D :D

Elaine (The proud owner of two cats - owners do take after their pets you know!)

[Daisy]

You are now forced to do the Advanced at Blackpool - along with all the open dancers.

That doesn't seem fair.

Forcing people to go up one level should only be one level.

David

We (Ray & I) placed at Bristol 2years ago and moved up straight away. We then had to compete in the adv/open at B/pool, along with all the superstars.

We had no choice if we wanted to progress and this just means you have to work darn hard to make the grade.

Getting into the final at B/pool this year was a real deal to us......placing would have been almost impossible, given the other dancers in the final!

I agree with David, it doesn't seem fair, but then life isn't always fair is it?
You just get on with it. :nice:

[TheTramp]

Getting into the final at B/pool this year was a real deal to us......And well deserved, given all the hard work that you've put in, and the way both of you have improved massively :clap:

Trampy

[Andy McGregor]

And well deserved, given all the hard work that you've put in, and the way both of you have improved massively :clap:

Trampy

:yeah:

I still remember when you won the Ceroc Beginners - a crown that has always eluded the King of Beginners and Forum Legend himself:devil:

You've both shown that hard work and dedication really do pay off :clap:

[Daisy]

And well deserved, given all the hard work that you've put in, and the way both of you have improved massively :clap:

Trampy

Thanks Trampy.....I think self improvement cames from the challenge. The trouble is that the higher you go the more there is to learn and think about.

What with smiling (or as Gus would say -cheesy grins), pretty hands/feet, posture, timing, musicality, positioning, moves, spinning...etc. etc.

Why do we do it?......cos we love it really! :clap: :flower:

[Sheepman]

Personally i would like to see all competition organisers publish the scores. :yeah:
There again I think the scores are mainnly for self gratification, or drowning your sorrows. If you really want to know where you need to improve, then you need to talk to the judges.
There again, I do think it is a retrograde step that at Jive Masters heats, even the placings are not given out. What's the rationale for that?

Greg

[David Franklin]

:yeah:
There again, I do think it is a retrograde step that at Jive Masters heats, even the placings are not given out. What's the rationale for that?
Greg
From what Adam said, I think the concern was that if everyone knows going into the final that couple X won their heat with a really high score, some people might automatically give them higher marks. [Of course, the "high marks" bit is moot now that only the vote placings are being used].

From what I observed of the "post-morteming" afterwards, I think the competitors can find out how they did - it's just not for public consumption.

Dave

[Andy McGregor]

From what I observed of the "post-morteming" afterwards, I think the competitors can find out how they did - it's just not for public consumption.

Dave

I didn't know we could find out. And I'm not asking, at the moment I could be third - if I find out the score that is likely to change:tears:

[charlie_no_socks]

I think in the London Marathon everyone runs together. If you say you came 50th in the London marathon most people know to be impressed. (If you told me you had finished it I'd be impressed) It doesn't matter that everyone is at different levels.

What if everyone simply competed at the same level. That way you can slowly work your way up and people will understand that even a 10th place is pretty good.

The levels are all mixed up anyway: I think the winners of int at ceroc would have been in the finals in the adv section, and I think the winners of adv would not have been out of place in the finals of the open section.

The only other section would be 'new comers' for people with less than 12 months experience.

I know the above system would introduce a whole bunch of new problems, but perhaps they would be preferable to the ones discussed here?

[TheTramp]

I think in the London Marathon everyone runs together.
Don't the professional runners all start first from the front. Then the 'club' runners who are aiming to run the whole distance, and beat times etc. Then finally the 'fun' runners start last from the back.

That's how they do the Great North Run (I was going to do it the year that I screwed up my knee). I assumed that all other such runs would work on the same sort of principle.

So no. I believe that your assumption is wrong Charlie. Sorry.

Trampy

[Sheepman]

The obvious being Mickey Mouse outfits runnng competitions and becoming recognised as a real event when it was an amateur shambles.
Good point. What would constitute such a 'bad' competition? This is a selection of comments I've heard over the last few years.
- unsuitable venue
- poor lighting
- poor music
- poor floor
- poor scheduling
- inexperienced judges
- lack of transparency in the marking
- inefficient production of the results

So many improvements are being made in events at the moment that it is not fair to judge an organisation on anything but their most recent event. For some organisations (including Ceroc) this is just as well. It is also a sign of how much work organisers are putting in to improve their events.
:rofl: :clap:

[Andy McGregor]

Good point. What would constitute such a 'bad' competition? This is a selection of comments I've heard over the last few years.
- unsuitable venue
- poor lighting
- poor music
- poor floor
- poor scheduling
- inexperienced judges
- lack of transparency in the marking
- inefficient production of the results



There was nothing wrong with the music - I think it was fab:wink:

[Gus]

There was nothing wrong with the music - I think it was fab:wink:
Have I missed a subtle dig? What competitions are being referred to as 'Mickey Mouse'?

[ChrisA]

Have I missed a subtle dig?

Nope :rofl:

[Andy McGregor]

Have I missed a subtle dig? What competitions are being referred to as 'Mickey Mouse'?

No competition in particular, just keeping them on their toes with faint praise. And I wouldn't want to upset any DJs, they're all fab:flower:

[Sheepman]

What competitions are being referred to as 'Mickey Mouse'? :rofl: None, as far as I can tell!

Greg

[Minnie M]

Have I missed a subtle dig? What competitions are being referred to as 'Mickey Mouse'?

I missed that too :angry: and what is wrong with Mickey :innocent: :blush:

[Jive Brummie]

Has anyone seen a "place in a competition and you move up" thread around here????

I'm sure if i look hard enough i'll find one

:devil:

[Dreadful Scathe]

theres one over there -> hidden behind the "what makes an advanced dancer" thread :)

[Gus]

So .. at the risk of getting flamed (bad repped) ... have all debates re the 'who competes in what category' been sorted for the Scottish Champs? I belive that ALL teachers have to compete in the Open ... should make for an entertaining event. But ... was there any rule about who should be in advanced based on previous success? Are JiveMasters entrants bound to be in advanced or Open?

[DavidB]

have all debates re the 'who competes in what category' been sorted for the Scottish Champs?
Here are the official categories:

- It doesn't matter as long as we get Toxic again in the final - James & Mel
- You're not allowed to dance that well in 9 months - Yuko
- Strokable trousers - Sheena, but any other lady is more than welcome to enter
- I love 2 fast songs in the final - Trampy
- Crossdressing - Bill, Andy Mac, Brady
- Teams - All Scottish teams have been banned from competing as a result of testing positive for enthusiasm.
- Giggling - Denise

[Gordon J Pownall]

Here are the official categories:

- It doesn't matter as long as we get Toxic again in the final - James & Mel
- You're not allowed to dance that well in 9 months - Yuko
- Strokable trousers - Sheena, but any other lady is more than welcome to enter
- I love 2 fast songs in the final - Trampy
- Crossdressing - Bill, Andy Mac, Brady
- Teams - All Scottish teams have been banned from competing as a result of testing positive for enthusiasm.
- Giggling - Denise

Can I add,

bravest Southerner, willing to really give it a go and attempt to win....in Scotland

bravest Conservative willing to dance wearing a Mrs Thatch fancy dress

bravest woman willing to dance (at less than ten seconds notice) with Trampy

bravest man willing to dance (at less than ten seconds notice) with Andy McG

:whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

[under par]

That's my favourite possibility. It also avoids the potential problem of a couple being entered in, say, Intermediate at Hammersmith & Blackpool, placing at Blackpool, so having to move up to Advanced @ Hammersmith, who unfortunately say "Oh, but advanced is full already - sorry!".

I'd be inclined to make it a year (or maybe 6 months) from the date they placed - I'm not really sure where the start/end of "the season" is, and I do think not having to suddenly change category (as might happen if you won the last event of the season) is a good thing.

Dave

It would have to be a rolling season from the date of the placing/winning for 12 months hence.

[under par]

So .. at the risk of getting flamed (bad repped) ... have all debates re the 'who competes in what category' been sorted for the Scottish Champs? I belive that ALL teachers have to compete in the Open ... should make for an entertaining event. But ... was there any rule about who should be in advanced based on previous success? Are JiveMasters entrants bound to be in advanced or Open?


Out interest is there a site for the rules for the Scottish Champs in 2006?

This old thread may still have some mileage yet.......any further thoughts a year on:wink:

Are the categories set in stone each year or do they vary?

Has the consensus arrived at a conclusion? Who should compete in what category and why?

[Simon r]

Just to add my two pennith worth...

I think it is up to the individuals as to which comp they enter in to. There is no no grading in Ceroc or modern jive so it seems unfair to impose a grading system in to competetors.

I made the choice to enter into the open in my first comp as i wanted to compete asgainst the best that i could ( at that time i was not teaching).

If you feel you are at an intermediate levelk then compete at that level ,same advanced e.t.c.

Personally i would like to see a national league with an accumalitive point system for a year.
If say in the top thirty then expect to be in the open and so on...

But at the end of the day i believe it is up to the individual and there choice to which comp they enter...

LOL simon

[ElaineB]

Just to add my two pennith worth...


Personally i would like to see a national league with an accumalitive point system for a year.
If say in the top thirty then expect to be in the open and so on...


LOL simon

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

I think a good starting point would be that competitors actually abide by the rules in the first place. Every year there are some people who enter catergories that they shouldn't.

Simon dragged me out of Intermediates because he thought morally we should move up - we didn't have to, as we hadn't been placed in the top three in any intermediate competiton. This year we will take the plunge into the Open, because we have decided to demo/teach.

Good on those who abide by the rules - but until some sort of system is put in place, we will enivitably see further debate!

Elaine