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RobC
3rd-June-2004, 12:11 AM
OK, so I have been fairly outspoken about one or two topics on the forum recently, and despite the disclaimer I put at the bottom of every post, it has been fed back to me that certain people in the dance world have been upset about some of my postings - I'm not going to go into any details, but basically 'they' feel that due to my connection to a particular venue, my postings hold somewhat more weight and readers of my comments will believe that the venues/organisations I am connected to endorse the views.......

To sum up a conversation I had today, I have been 'asked' not to post any more negative comments, but I am allowed to continue plugging events etc.

So, the question is, do I sucumb to political censorship and bite my tongue when I disagree with someone's opinions, or do I continue to express personal opinions at the risk of offending others ?

DISCUSS

spindr
3rd-June-2004, 12:25 AM
Rob, think you've answered this yourself by posting here?

Of course the first thing I did was to check through your old posts -- frankly couldn't see anything terribly controversial.

Perhaps you could mitigate the issue by using a different persona for "personal" posts on the forum, perhaps without a specific biography or location (synonymous with a class), and a different more official looking one for advertising :)

SpinDr.

P.S. Can we have an extra option -- "I can read between the lines".
P.P.S. Rob, how can you post officially for Ceroc anyway -- or has your CTA stuff gone through now?

bigdjiver
3rd-June-2004, 02:18 AM
I would be very reluctant to post negative views about any organisation that I worked for, oo much like biting the hand that feeds you.

However I am always ready to post suggestions for improvement.

Not we are less good at ____ than _____

but

We might do better if we ______ like ______

ChrisA
3rd-June-2004, 06:48 AM
-snip-

'they' feel that due to my connection to a particular venue, my postings hold somewhat more weight and readers of my comments will believe that the venues/organisations I am connected to endorse the views.......

To sum up a conversation I had today, I have been 'asked' not to post any more negative comments, but I am allowed to continue plugging events etc.

So, the question is, do I sucumb to political censorship and bite my tongue when I disagree with someone's opinions, or do I continue to express personal opinions at the risk of offending others ?

DISCUSS
Personally, I don't give two hoots who you work for - if you express an opinion I assume it's yours and treat it accordingly.

But if you're going to use an explicit disclaimer maybe you should only use it when you're posting an opinion... because the sig does seem to me to be out of kilter with the Fleet events plugs.

I mean, plug away, I'd rather know about events than not know about them. But knowing your affiliation, the frequent plugs seem strange with the sig.

My view, FWIW, is dump the disclaimer. Those who believe your posts are your opinion don't need it and those that don't won't believe it.

Chris

Gus
3rd-June-2004, 10:46 AM
I would be very reluctant to post negative views about any organisation that I worked for, oo much like biting the hand that feeds you.

Didnt know that Ceroc was 'feeding' anyone? Lets be straight ...Ceroc is a dance organisation that relies very heavily on the goodwill of the dancers and its volunteer crew to succeed. If there is something wrong then EVERYONE has the right to say something. Its no big secret that a number of MJ organisations have tried to operate like Thought Police when it comes to views expressed ... and thats very sad. Its no secret that franchisees have threatened their crew with regards to their dancing or support for other MJ clubs. This is unacceptable. Through the Forum such practices can and must be outed. The 'naming and shaming' approach is fraught with legal and moral issues but I belive that this Forum has been a vaulable step forward in making the 'bad boys (and girls)' think twice before using such heavy handed approaches.

Phew ... rant over :nice:

TheTramp
3rd-June-2004, 10:48 AM
Also, no organisation is perfect. A forum like this gives a chance for said organisations to see where people (including the people that work for them) think that they can improve. Providing that the feedback is constructive, and not just a 'slagging' off. Which I've not read Rob do much. Honest :yum:

Some organisations pay vast sums of money for the free feedback that this forum is giving.....

Trampy

Andy McGregor
3rd-June-2004, 11:36 AM
OK, so I have been fairly outspoken about one or two topics on the forum recently, and despite the disclaimer I put at the bottom of every post, it has been fed back to me that certain people in the dance world have been upset about some of my postings -

IMHO Rob's postings have been honest and true - I certainly agree with them. And I think they reflect the opinions of many dancers who haven't the guts or inclination to speak out. Hopefully those people who've been 'upset' by those postings will act to change what Rob's been outspoken about rather than trying to stop people speaking the truth as they see it. Also, if they have a counter argument they can always post it here.


To sum up a conversation I had today, I have been 'asked' not to post any more negative comments, but I am allowed to continue plugging events etc.

So, the question is, do I sucumb to political censorship and bite my tongue when I disagree with someone's opinions, or do I continue to express personal opinions at the risk of offending others ?

DISCUSS

Express away, I think your comments are constructive and well reasoned:worthy:


my postings hold somewhat more weight

Everything about RobC has a lot more weight behind it:devil:

CJ
3rd-June-2004, 11:38 AM
Also, if they have a counter argument they can always post it here.

No they can't.

Andy McGregor
3rd-June-2004, 11:40 AM
No they can't.

Do you mean that they won't or that they've 'succumbed to political censorship' and have been told not to?

As far as I know Franck allows anyone to post on this forum.

TheTramp
3rd-June-2004, 11:43 AM
Do you mean that they won't or that they've 'succumbed to political censorship' and have been told not to?Nope. I think that he was just being facious!!

Trampy

CJ
3rd-June-2004, 11:47 AM
Nope. I think that he was just being facious!!

Trampy

I was hoping to be facetious. And there is always space for irony in this world... :devil:

TheTramp
3rd-June-2004, 11:49 AM
I was hoping to be facetious. And there is always space for irony in this world... :devil:Sorry. Can't spell obviously.... :tears:

Trampy

Emma
3rd-June-2004, 11:53 AM
Can't spell obviously..Looks perfectly spelt to me! :wink:

CJ
3rd-June-2004, 11:56 AM
Looks perfectly spelt to me! :wink:

he was trying to type "oblivious" tho :wink:

Emma
3rd-June-2004, 12:03 PM
Seriuosly, though - of course Rob you should continue to post your opinion! :nice: Maybe however it'd be more effective to say within your contentious posts (if you make them) that it is your personal opinion - a bit like Gus does when he is posting ODA stuff.

I find that sig texts tend to stop being noticable after the first couple of times of reading (which probably explains why I haven't been inundated with job offers, eh? :cool: )

CJ
3rd-June-2004, 12:56 PM
:waycool:

I just got negative reputation with a "yeah, yeah, whatever" anonymous comment!! For my additions to this thread...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

How cool is that?!?

:devil:

way-hey, my day is made.

Am off to be productive now.

Gadget
3rd-June-2004, 01:08 PM
When you post, you are giving your opinion; if you were toeing a company line, then I would assume you would prefix it with "Management thinks that..." or "According to the powers that be..." or "X is holding an event..."

I think that your syg should be a personal syg - you are not posting "the company"'s view, but your own: having the disclaimer actually draws peoples attention to the fact that you could be expressing the collective's view.

Andy McGregor
3rd-June-2004, 02:15 PM
:waycool:

I just got negative reputation with a "yeah, yeah, whatever" anonymous comment!! For my additions to this thread...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

How cool is that?!?

:devil:

way-hey, my day is made.

Am off to be productive now.

I'll bet I get a bigger negative reputation than CJ:devil:

At the moment I seem to be getting a red light in the bottom left of my posts and everyone else has a green or a grey one - what's that all about:confused:

Emma
3rd-June-2004, 02:19 PM
At the moment I seem to be getting a red light in the bottom left of my posts and everyone else has a green or a grey one - what's that all about:confused:It means you are set to invisible, Andy. ) Green=visible and grey=offline. :)

TheTramp
3rd-June-2004, 02:20 PM
I'll bet I get a bigger negative reputation than CJ:devil: Probably.....!!

At the moment I seem to be getting a red light in the bottom left of my posts and everyone else has a green or a grey one - what's that all about:confused:Green light - you're online, and not invisible.

Grey light - you're offline, or online and invisible.

Red light - Indigo Swing

Sorry, Red light - You're online, invisible, and only you see your red light - presumably to warn you that you are invisible or something??

Trampy

Sheepman
3rd-June-2004, 03:46 PM
I think a disclaimer is fine, but I'm with Emma and Gadget on this, I don't think the signature is the right place for this. (For a start, if you change your sig, it changes everywhere - old and new posts). When you see the same thing repeated every time, it becomes invisible.

"Whistle blowing" is a delicate subject, inevitably organisations won't be happy if they see a member of that organisation doing things which they perceive as detrimental. I think it really has to be a matter of personal judgement. Certainly none of your postings have struck me as going too far.

Greg

Gordon J Pownall
16th-June-2004, 01:09 AM
Stand by your convictions.........as long as they are your own.....

under par
16th-June-2004, 11:29 AM
Stand by your convictions.........as long as they are your own.....

You should always declare any previous convictions! I'm told. :whistle:

Lounge Lizard
16th-June-2004, 11:56 AM
Rob say what you think without the disclaimer, you promote and critisise on your own feelings not cos Simon or whoever has asked you to, or told you not to.
if posting your opinion (providing it is not seriously harmfull to the organiser) means you may loose your teaching slot, then is this the right people to work for?

I personaly think there is a big change since Fleet became ceroc not sure if this is pressure from above on other directions, would you be in the same position with regard postings if Fleet was still jivebug - eg are you upsetting ceroc or simon.

Keep posting cos if you stop, the negative feedback on this forum towards ceroc plus will probably be much higher than any resulting from your personal comments.

If it was not for you the ceroc plus events would not be known about on this forum, so they either accept the good and bad (I cant think of a bad postiong from you) or loose out in many ways.

As you are one of the best ambasadors for MJ I think ceroc plus should be VERY carefull not to loose another valued member of their team.
C U at MJC next week
peter :cheers:

Andy McGregor
16th-June-2004, 12:39 PM
Rob, say what you think without the disclaimer: you promote and critisise on your own feelings, not cos Simon or whoever has asked you to, or told you not to. If posting your opinion, providing it is not seriously harmfull to the organiser, means you may lose your teaching slot, then, are these the right people to work for?

I think this is a difficult one. An employer has every right to ask his staff to toe the company line and not run down the company or say anything that could affect public perception adversely. And the employer will usually have a clear idea of what statements might damage the company image. Also, a company can require and employee to keep company information secret. This will be laid out clearly in the Contract of Employment - on the other hand, if there is no contract and the employee has worked for the company for more than 3 months there would be no need for the employee to sign such a gagging contract:hint:



I personally think there's been a big change since Fleet became ceroc

I haven't been to Fleet since it became Ceroc Plus and they stopped employing N&N. I used to go when Simon was teaching too. The nights were always well attended, by a lot of good dancers as well as a mix of beginners. What form has this 'big change' taken?


As you are one of the best ambasadors for MJ, I think ceroc plus should be VERY careful not to lose another valued member of their team.

RobC is someone you notice in any room of dancers. He is always positive, happy and keen. He's a great dancer too:clap: How come he's still single...

..so now we've got Nigel Anderson, still single, RobC, still single - I've proposed it before but I really think it's time for us guys to show some solidarity - guys, do not date another woman until one of them asks RobC on a date:devil:

Lounge Lizard
16th-June-2004, 01:04 PM
I think this is a difficult one. An employer has every right to ask his staff to toe the company line and not run down the company or say anything that could affect public perception adversely. And the employer will usually have a clear idea of what statements might damage the company image. Also, a company can require and employee to keep company information secret. This will be laid out clearly in the Contract of Employment - on the other hand, if there is no contract and the employee has worked for the company for more than 3 months there would be no need for the employee to sign such a gagging contract:hint:
I haven't been to Fleet since it became Ceroc Plus and they stopped employing N&N. I used to go when Simon was teaching too. The nights were always well attended, by a lot of good dancers as well as a mix of beginners. What form has this 'big change' taken?

RobC is someone you notice in any room of dancers. He is always positive, happy and keen. He's a great dancer too:clap: How come he's still single...

..so now we've got Nigel Anderson, still single, RobC, still single - I've proposed it before but I really think it's time for us guys to show some solidarity - guys, do not date another woIman until one of them asks RobC on a date:devil:
I dont think Rob says anything negative or harmfull that requires this form of cencorship
changes - many speaking to locals and from experience some good some bad
Nigel and Rob single, guys solidarity........well i dont mind not dating, providing I can stay with the lady I am already dating.........dont think Nigel is exactly left on the shelf tho.....
LL

spindr
16th-June-2004, 02:02 PM
I haven't been to Fleet since it became Ceroc Plus and they stopped employing N&N. I used to go when Simon was teaching too. The nights were always well attended, by a lot of good dancers as well as a mix of beginners. What form has this 'big change' taken?

Ok, my take on the current situation is:
1). Simon no longer teaching (nor Marilene).
2). Nigel and Nina no longer teaching advanced jive, first Thursday of the month.
3). Improvers Jive class discontinued in favour of second Lindy Hop class.
4). Second Lindy Hop class then discontinued in favour of Jive Fusion class with Adam + Taz. Not sure I'd really call this advanced jive -- about 50% of the time it's "just" a solo "hip-hop" stroll.
5). No demos of second intermediate jive class -- or of the jive fusion class -- you have to guess which one you'll find most interesting.
7). Dan Slape teaching second intermediate jive class -- with guest appearances, e.g. from Mick Wenger (sp?). (I don't tend to do this one, but *presume* there's as not quite much info' re: lady's footwork, etc., as when Marilene/Nina were demo'ing)
8). Price has just increased to £7, tho' there is some form of multi-ticket available -- though I'm not sure that it's a "real" Ceroc admit one, might just be a Fleet only one.
9). DJ lineup has changed several times -- lets just say they all have their own individual styles :)

Seems to be a lot more improvers/intermediates about -- now have dancers from other Ceroc venues attending, e.g. those going to Annalisa's classes -- most of the old-Jivebug dancers seem to do the jive fusion class.

From a personal viewpoint, it's been great -- I got fed up with Simon messing with his format for Fleet and went off and found a lot more great classes -- including salsa, tango and WCS -- so not so restricted by choice, now. Plus, I think it's definitely helping my dancing.

Now things have stabilised, I've started going back to CerocPlus occasionally, and seems to be a pretty good evening -- not sure its worth £7, but there's always the multi-ticket option. Would like to see classes demo'd beforehand, so can choose "the best" one -- but can't have everything :(

Last week (before election) was excellent -- hope it continues like that. One note of caution, I know when things first changed around some of the quieter advanced ladies have said they had problems (i) getting a dance, as some of the old-Jivebug-men (myself included) had stopped going and newcomers seemed a bit cliquey, (ii) problems getting a good dance as a lot of new intermediates about -- I haven't had to ask for too many dances recently, so maybe that's still a slight issue?

So, in summary changes *seem* to have calmed down -- definitely a good venue to dance at -- don't let your nostalgia for an excellent venue put you off coming to the good one it is now.

SpinDr.
P.S. I still miss Nigel and Nina -- well Nina actually :)

djsaz
16th-June-2004, 04:47 PM
hiya!

Rob, Things certainly have changed, i for one beleive that your views do not represent this company. Everyone is allowed the freedom of speech.
Lets just say I understand where your coming from having previously had something similar requested of me in my time connected with them!

I for one agree that there have been changes, me being one of them!In trying to move on there will always be casualities but at what cost?

I for one hope that as a result of you posting on here, they dont loose sight of what a fab dancer and lovely guy you are, surely thats as important as constructive criticism, you need good staff to help make the venue/night. I wish you well with your quest, who knows maybe the people concerned will see sense, good luck xx

sarah

djsaz
16th-June-2004, 04:49 PM
ps...i didnt mean you criticise just that they should accept comments from who ever!
x