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Stuart M
31st-May-2004, 09:58 PM
Found this post on a US Tango discussion site. Probably the lead/follow roles could be reversed in the scenario below and it would still hold true.

"Friday night I went to a milonga & met a woman new to tango & to me. We danced a few times & I enjoyed it. She was a good height for me, had a good frame, & moved well.

As the evening went by I looked a few times to see how she was doing & noticed she was dancing a lot & seemed to be having a good time. A good while later I sat beside her & asked how she was doing. I don't remember the exact words, but she said something like the following -- a message I've heard before from other women.

"I'm having a pretty good time, but I danced with a really good dancer & it was a disaster. It showed how bad I am." I told her something like the following. I don't know if it really got through to her.

Partner dancing is about cooperation, two people doing something together. Good team members share the load, each according to their abilities & their role. If they're lifting a load & one partner is a body builder & the other isn't, the stronger should bear more of the load, should pay even better attention to coordinating with their partner than they otherwise might. The expert dancer who makes his partner feel incompetent is NOT a good dancer. He's a selfish a**hole, plain & simple, or horribly incompetent.


So, if you can't make a dance enjoyable for most people you dance with, you can't be decribed as a good dancer. Would that be an acceptable paraphrase of the above?

Opinions? My own view FWIW - yes.

DavidB
31st-May-2004, 10:35 PM
Generally yes. But...

Knowing what your partner likes isn't that easy. One lady might like non-stop drops and multiple spins, another might like simple moves led well. You could lead exactly the same moves perfectly well, and get one lady hating it while the other loves it.

Another situation is what to do when a lead is missed? Some ladies will want you to do the move again, but others get upset if you do.

If it is someone I don't know, it can take several dances over several nights to figure out what to do. The only assumption I ever make is when the lady has an Australian accent - then I lead more free-spins than I would normally do.

Gadget
1st-June-2004, 11:27 AM
originally posted by Stuart M
So, if you can't make a dance enjoyable for most people you dance with, you can't be decribed as a good dancer. Would that be an acceptable paraphrase of the above?
Yes, but in my opinion you can still be an "Expert" dancer without being a good one.

I think that this again draws attention to the fact that a "good" social dancer has different skills from a "good" performing dancer.
I have danced with several ladies who have said to me that they don't particularly enjoy dancing with A or B, even though the specified dancers are recognised as some of the best dancers in the MJ scene (whether they have won competitions, teach, are recognised on the floor or just have a reputation). And some of the ladies commenting are very good dancers. One recent comment was that she felt completely lost and out of depth and need to be reminded that she could actually dance. She is a good dancer and the dance she was referring to looked very elegant and 'full' to me - obviously well led and followed.
I would expect that one or two complete beginners have made the exact same comments about me - but that doesn't stop the fact that I have failed to lead them into an area they are comfortable with and can have fun in. {OK this is slightly down in skill from "expert" loosing a "competent" dancer, but it's the same principle.}

Is this more a question of familiarity? The more you dance with the "good" dancers, the more you get used to their moves and their style of dancing? Is it that the "good" dancers are constantly stretching the boundaries and their partners are left wondering what's going on?

I would like to think that I change my repertoire and style to match my partner, but how do you know? This is a completely different skill to leading, following, move recollection, musical interpretation... It's not something that is taught at workshops or from the stage. Is it instinct? Is this what actually defines a "good dancer" ?

Daisy
1st-June-2004, 11:18 PM
I agree with the theme of this thread entirely. An experienced lead should be able to 'look after' a less experience partner and take responsibility for dancing within their capabilities.

They may after a while want to try and put in the odd, more challenging move, but on the whole the less exp. dancer should finish feeling inspired and delighted with such a fantastic dance.

Often a good advanced male lead can do really well in DWAS comps because they take care of their intermediate partner and manage to make her look good. If she is still smiling at the end of the dance then a good job has been done.

There is nothing worse for a beginner or less exp dancer than being put through 3-4 mins of hell with some a**h**e who has to show off at every opportunity and at someone elses expence.

I like many others have been in this position in the past and I will, for ever more, avoid dancing with that particular person ever again!

Gary
2nd-June-2004, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by Stuart M
...
So, if you can't make a dance enjoyable for most people you dance with, you can't be decribed as a good dancer.
...


"Good dancer" is too vague.

I'd say that if a guy doesn't lead such that the girl has a great time, (adjusting to the experience of the girl) he's not a good social dancer. I'm starting to get the hang of social dancing.

On the other hand, I really suck at competition dancing (dead spare arm, mostly looking down, dull footwork (plus probably other stuff I don't know about)), so I wouldn't call myself a "good dancer", and I wouldn't call someone who's great at competition dancing but very hard to follow "not a good dancer" either.

Of course if I had to choose I'd much rather excel at social dancing than competition dancing: I only get to compete a few nights a year, but I can social dance almost every night of the week.

Martin
2nd-June-2004, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by Gary
"Good dancer" is too vague.

I'd say that if a guy doesn't lead such that the girl has a great time, (adjusting to the experience of the girl) he's not a good social dancer. I'm starting to get the hang of social dancing.

On the other hand, I really suck at competition dancing (dead spare arm, mostly looking down, dull footwork (plus probably other stuff I don't know about)), so I wouldn't call myself a "good dancer", and I wouldn't call someone who's great at competition dancing but very hard to follow "not a good dancer" either.

Of course if I had to choose I'd much rather excel at social dancing than competition dancing: I only get to compete a few nights a year, but I can social dance almost every night of the week.

He he - firstly Gary you are a GREAT dancer.
Spare arm, looking down and some polish on the footwork, minor things compared to the pleasure you give to the ladies you dance with (I know, they tell me you are fab). :clap: :clap:
These are comp extras not social...
You have far more moves in your normal repetoire than me and you look fantastic.

Good vs. Expert
Well, me I am 100% on the social scene - "you look after your lady". If that means 4 moves rotated throughout the whole dance then so be it.
My biggest HATE is those superstars who show off and the lady thinks "good dancer, but I am not good enough to dance with him"... Bo**ocks, he is good, but not expert...
:yeah: