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DavidB
4th-July-2002, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by Lou
Actually - that's the most annoying thing ever. In class, when someone is always looking at the teachers & never looks you in the eye.I would have to disagree with you on this. I have no objection to my partner watching the teachers if that is the best way for them to learn something. I know that I will watch the teachers almost exclusively until I am happy with each part of a move. Given the complexity of some of the moves taught now, it can take a while to figure out what you are supposed to do. It is a lot easier (for me) to copy what I see someone doing, rather than trying to follow verbal instructions.

But by the end of the class, when you are just repeating the moves, I will look at my partner. And strangely enough she usually looks at me. You seem to get more eye contact at this time than you ever get in freestyle.

David

Lou
4th-July-2002, 06:23 PM
Hi David,

Yup - of course I wouldn't advocate not ever looking at the teacher!:grin: Of course you need to see what they're doing. :D

There are just certain people who refuse to look at you - even when repeating the moves - or stringing a couple together. :confused:

JamesGeary
14th-May-2004, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Lou

Actually - that's the most annoying thing ever. In class, when someone is always looking at the teachers & never looks you in the eye. :reallymad

I'm always looking at the teacher. What they say is pretty inconsequential usually. :devil:

For me its about what they do.

ChrisA
14th-May-2004, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
I would have to disagree with you on this. I have no objection to my partner watching the teachers if that is the best way for them to learn something. I know that I will watch the teachers almost exclusively until I am happy with each part of a move. Given the complexity of some of the moves taught now, it can take a while to figure out what you are supposed to do. It is a lot easier (for me) to copy what I see someone doing, rather than trying to follow verbal instructions.

Do you still have this view, David?


and from James...
I'm always looking at the teacher. What they say is pretty inconsequential usually
I'd be inclined to think it's different for leaders than for followers...

... beginner ladies will invariably attempt to watch the teacher as the move is done to a count, which they won't yet realise is counterproductive, since they end up learning to dance the move from memory, rather than following a lead.

In the classes I'll usually have a pretty good idea how easily the lady will be able to follow the move, so when they're watching the teacher (and often looking stressed) I often say something like, "don't look at them - it'll be fine".

They look worried to start with, then they look amazed when they notice that they did the move without remembering what the steps were...

Of course it's not easy for them when they're partnered up with beginner guys that can't lead yet, but I can't help feeling that many of the seeds of anticipation are sown in this way.

Chris

Simon r
14th-May-2004, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA


They look worried to start with, then they look amazed when they notice that they did the move without remembering what the steps were...

Of course it's not easy for them when they're partnered up with beginner guys that can't lead yet, but I can't help feeling that many of the seeds of anticipation are sown in this way.

Chris [/B]

I can not believe this quote are you for real
i think most new dancers would feel upset with a dancer saying to them do not watch the teacher watch me.
I understand you are trying to allow them to work out the meaning of lead and follow.
But as a new dancer i would be put off ,if i had read your comments
two new dancers can learn equaly as well from each other with a good teacher , i would say even more than dancing with an experienced dancer who may have a lot of bad habits
Did you not learn yourself by watching and learning from teachers first , i can say that i did and would never comment on how a person learns .

ChrisA
14th-May-2004, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Simon r
I can not believe this quote are you for real Hurrah... at last I've managed to say something controversial :D


Did you not learn yourself by watching and learning from teachers first , Of course I did, but I'm making a distinction between the leader and the follower, and I'm also making a distinction between when the move is being taught one step at a time (in which case watching the teacher is obviously a good plan) and when it's being practised to a count, or indeed to music.


i think most new dancers would feel upset with a dancer saying to them do not watch the teacher watch me.Suppose the move is a pretzel. It's been taught several times one step at a time, and everyone has been watching the teacher, which is fine. Now the time comes to dance it to a count. The guy offers his hand behind his back for the lady to take.

Perhaps you could explain exactly how it's helpful at this point for the lady to be watching the teacher? Ok, the example is with an intermediate move, but the principle is the same.

Even with beginners moves it is quite common for the lady to mistranslate what she thinks she sees on the stage and attempt to go in completely the wrong direction.


i can say that i did and would never comment on how a person learns . Do you mean here, or in a class? I never say anything at all about the way people learn in a class.

All I'm getting at is the fact that, probably hundreds of times (I'm not exaggerating), I've been in a beginners class where the poor beginner lady is stressing - big time - about whether she'll be able to remember what's just been taught. Such stress is clearly counterproductive since it undermines her confidence, and hinders her from learning.

So I might say:

"Don't worry, it's the guy's job to remember the move, see if you can feel where I'm leading you"

Or I might say:

"You'll be able to do this fine, don't watch them..."

If I'm not taxiing then I'll generally be a lot more sparing with such comments, but if the girl is clearly experiencing more stress than she needs then I might say something even if I'm not.

Chris

spindr
14th-May-2004, 09:40 PM
I think it's fine for the follower to watch the teachers -- I'll try to turn around so that they can do so (if we're in a circle) -- otherwise I may stagger out of a row, so there's a line of sight. I think that it doesn't matter if you are either learning, or just doing the move to a count.

When you're trying to dance the move to music it can be a bit counterproductive if your follower is trying to rotate to keep the stage in view... but that's the same when I'm not sure how the move should be danced.

SpinDr.

Foofs
17th-May-2004, 07:52 PM
I tend to watch during the walking through part and the dancing to a count but when the music comes on I try for the ol' eye-contact. :wink:

But, question: in a class situation should I as the follower do what I am being taught or folloe where I am being (wrongly) led?

foxylady
17th-May-2004, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by Foofs
But, question: in a class situation should I as the follower do what I am being taught or folloe where I am being (wrongly) led?

I find this tricky. I usually try and correct the leader and show them how to do it the way its being taught, but that doesn't always go down well.... depending on how high an opinion of himself the chap has... (NB I always make darned sure I have double checked that I've got the move before correcting... God forbid that I thought that I was always right !!)

Gary
18th-May-2004, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Foofs

But, question: in a class situation should I as the follower do what I am being taught or folloe where I am being (wrongly) led?

What I'd prefer my partners to do is to follow, even if I'm doing something wrong, but then tell me "hey, I don't think that's what the teacher was doing, shouldn't it go more like ..."

I'd like to be able to learn a move by having my partner backlead me through it, but right now it makes it a lot harder for me to learn when a girl is helping me that way.

Oh, and foxylady? It wrecks me when the girl backleads while I'm trying to learn not because I think I'm right and she's wrong (girls almost always pick stuff up much quicker than me), but just because I can't learn very well if I'm not leading.

But that's just me and I'm a reprehensible control freak.

Lounge Lizard
18th-May-2004, 10:05 AM
Yes they should watch the teacher....that's what we are there for!

All to often I will demonstrate a move before I teach it - there are always the ones who imediatly copy what I am doing, not really watching the demo, then talk the lady through the move when I am teaching it then.......(often getting it all wrong) and look look silly when everyone else has got it and they are struggling:angry:

My best one was 'Milk Tray Man' I had made up a new move, I was trying it out at Hastings and it really was a NEW move, this guy tells the ladies he is dancing with "no he is doing it wrong watch me not him"...bless him!!!

I like the dancers to watch the teacher, but then I will say "we are watching you" so you watch your partner.
And yes some still look at the stage while I am standing there doing nothing, after a couple of times they get the idea tho.
p

ChrisA
18th-May-2004, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by Gary
It wrecks me when the girl backleads while I'm trying to learn not because I think I'm right and she's wrong (girls almost always pick stuff up much quicker than me), but just because I can't learn very well if I'm not leading.

But that's just me and I'm a reprehensible control freak. ...........:yeah:

It's not just you, Gary... and I don't think it's anything to do with control freakery.

Before I've learned a move well enough to be able to execute it and lead it, I might be a bit behind the beat for the first couple of executions, especially if there's a moderately complicated position to get to or through... and if the girl leads it faster than I'm processing it, the ensuing wrestling match usually just kills my learning process stone dead.

There are a few girls who lead it so well, though, in such a situation, that I'm more than grateful for the help. They are also skilful enough to relinquish the lead as soon as they realise I've got it :worthy:

Chris

Daisy Chain
18th-May-2004, 12:24 PM
I find the amount of time I spend looking at the teacher is directly proportional to their gender and attractiveness :drool: It's a good excuse to stare at fit men. :blush:

Daisy

TheTramp
18th-May-2004, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by Daisy Chain
I find the amount of time I spend looking at the teacher is directly proportional to their gender and attractiveness :drool: It's a good excuse to stare at fit men. :blush: Ray doesn't read the forum, does he Daisy?? :D

Trampy

Simon r
18th-May-2004, 01:11 PM
Daisy
why do you not stare at me then:confused:

Foofs
18th-May-2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Gary
What I'd prefer my partners to do is to follow, even if I'm doing something wrong, but then tell me "hey, I don't think that's what the teacher was doing, shouldn't it go more like ..."


I think I'll go with this suggestion - thanks very much! :kiss:
:cheers:
Might even get to try it out tonight ... mind you after being away for quite a few weeks I don't think I'll be much use!! :what: :tears:

JamesGeary
18th-May-2004, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard

My best one was 'Milk Tray Man' I had made up a new move, I was trying it out at Hastings and it really was a NEW move, this guy tells the ladies he is dancing with "no he is doing it wrong watch me not him"...bless him!!!



:rofl: :rofl:

JamesGeary
18th-May-2004, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Gary
Oh, and foxylady? It wrecks me when the girl backleads while I'm trying to learn ... because I can't learn very well if I'm not leading.


Ditto. I just get more confused if I'm backled. The move feels totally different to how it feels if you are doing it right and leading.

I think shoving me into the right position gets me through the move so it looks like I'm learning, but its an optical illusion, I usually stay just as confused.

I think the reason girls do it is because if you push a girl through a move in a class she tends to learn it because she isn't learning to lead it. So she figures what worked for her, ought to work for him.

I think you can indicate to him what to do with a bit of movement, but make him take the initiative to progress the move.

foxylady
18th-May-2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by foxylady
I usually try and correct the leader and show them how to do it the way its being taught...

Originally posted by JamesGeary
I think you can indicate to him what to do with a bit of movement, but make him take the initiative to progress the move.

Thats really what I meant by try and correct (with movements and words) - I hope I don't backlead (except in the dire-est circumstances), but perhaps others will disabuse me of this...

Emma
19th-May-2004, 09:54 AM
Backleading is evil.

However, here is a defence ;)

A follower goes to a class. She learns a new move in the class pretty quickly, because for the first three rotations she is lucky enough to get experienced leaders, or she already knows the move. Next rotation, someone who says 'I don't know how to do this'. After extracting her almost broken arm from halfway up her back she attempts to explain where it is that he is probably going in the wrong direction, and holds up the roatation slightly meaning that someone loses a partner (oops). The next time she gets a man who says 'oh good, you look like you know what you're doing', so when the move goes slightly awry this time she applies a little pressure in the places where it feels like it's going wrongish and they get through the move fine together. By now onto the count, she gets a couple more fellas, one who has kindof got it, and another who says he hasn't but with a bit of light pressure in the right places really has. She's backleading him, of course.

Now apart from the complete fiction at the beginning of this little story where she gets three experienced leaders in a row, you have to understand that for most OK followers this is what happens nearly every time they do a class (and I do realise it works the other way around). Backleading becomes sort of inevitable.

It's taken me months and months to learn not to backlead (and I imagine I still do it sometimes :blush: ) I'd be prepared to bet that none of the leads contributing to this thread actually ever need or want someone to backlead them, and maybe the follows who they think are backleading them are just struggling with following them :devil: because when you get a 'good' dancer it often stuffs up your follow: you chaps are intimidating! (Yes, you are!!).

Anyway, backleading is evil. I do agree :nice:

foxylady
19th-May-2004, 10:53 AM
As a result of this thread in the beginners class (where I am a taxi) I stood there and didn't help at all. I think as a taxi its a lot easier to get away with saying, "well if you don't do anything then I'm not going to", and I actually said to one chap that his target for the night was to learn to lead the move not just to let the ladies help him!!. He joined the beginners revision class as a result which he didn't do last week, and actually became pretty competent at leading the moves from the class by the end...

I think its all to easy to back lead beginners, as Emma says, simply to avoid getting hurt !!

ChrisA
19th-May-2004, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Emma
Backleading is evil.It is.

After extracting her almost broken arm from halfway up her back It is by no means, however, as evil as inflicting pain.

Consider this:

Most beginner ladies do not yank.

Most beginner ladies do not lead.

Over time, many of them end up doing both. I am forced to the inescapable conclusion that it is the guys' fault, and I'm sure it takes place much as Emma describes.

One of the lines that Viktor frequently uses in his classes which I shamelessly plagiarise when I'm doing review classes as a taxi, is "this move should cause no feeling of pain".

It gets a laugh, but also serves to emphasise that leading is not about yanking. I also emphasise the guy's responsibility not to exert force on the ladies - and that the ladies should speak up if something hurts.

But in my experience of hundreds of beginners classes, very little emphasis is placed on not forcing, despite the emphasis on the guy's responsibility to lead.

By the time the recent beginner guys get to the intermediate classes, where even less emphasis is placed on the basics, what chance do they have? Most guys that exert force to get the lady where they think she should be don't even realise they're doing it. In a small way, I was guilty of this myself at one time.

IMHO, we make a rod for our own back in the quest for that "jolly, fun" atmosphere, and end up not nipping the problems in the bud.

Chris

Gadget
19th-May-2004, 12:10 PM
I tend to find that there are about four distinct levels of follower I get in (beginner) classes: the complete beginner, the novice, the intermediate and the experienced dancers.

- Complete beginners have no idea what to expect and are quite easy to lead - you just have to be very 'clear' and 'steady' in the lead. As long as you can guide their movements to resemble what they see on the stage, they are happy.
If something "does not compute" then they tend to just stop and 'lock-up' or give complete 'noodle' arms. A very good indication that something is wrong.

- Novices tend to be keen and watch the stage all the time (or at every opportunity), trying to do exactly what the teacher does with exactly the same timing, no matter what the lead says. Not exactly back-leading, but more not listening to the lead.
They also tend to be the ones that "know" the move - once it's started, they will complete it {"here, here, turn, back, return. Ready for the next move Mr lead."}

- Intermediate dancers know the move and can't really help but switch into auto-pilot you will feel the resistance when leading something 'wrong' or unexpected. They will follow; but with a surprised or quizzical look. If you do it twice, they may offer more resistance and go the way they think it should be done {"look, lead me here"}
They also watch the stage, but during the demos - then try to put into practice some of the bit's they notice. If you get it 'wrong', they switch from trying to improve their part to trying to help the lead.

- Experienced dancers show me up all the time - they actually go where led and into the moves you lead them... only once you finish screwing up do you get the comment of "that wasn't right, was it?" rather than getting feedback as you do the move. But you can then let the move pass into the background while working on your own subtle changes to timing, posture, movement, lead,...
There are some that pay a bit more attention to the moves being done than I do and 'hint' at the start of next move when they feel my lead (memory) falter.

I've also noticed that some people spend only a week at one level before stepping up to the next, others spend a year. There does not seem to be any specific 'switch over' event, time period, lesson, or whatever that I have been able to see - some people just get it quicker than others.


{Just re-read this, and it seems I am placing the blame wholey at the feet of the ladies - that's because they are doing it. :wink:
I suppose it is also the lead's fault for either not being clear enough, so 'forcing' the lady to take matters into her own hands. Or being too forcefull with the lady and so developing a strong 'resistance' in her to go anywhere but exactly where she should be. But both Lead and Follower need to learn, and I see 'back-leading' as just part of that learning process.}

spindr
19th-May-2004, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA Consider this:

Most beginner ladies do not yank.
Most beginner ladies do not lead.

Over time, many of them end up doing both. I am forced to the inescapable conclusion that it is the guys' fault, and I'm sure it takes place much as Emma describes.

I think you are drawing a slightly dubious conclusion here -- post hoc ergo propter hoc (*)?

I think that beginners do not know the moves. Therefore beginners are unable to anticipate the move and have to concentrate. Once moves become familiar, it is much easier to anticipate, than to concentrate on lead and follow. Hence, non-beginners are able to anticipate -- especially if there are "standard routines", e.g. in a class, or standardised moves. I think it's the anticipation of the next step that *can* lead to back-leading and possibly also to "yanking" (which I take to be the lady moving her weight backwards, either out of time with the lead, or further than was actually led) -- although I think sometimes the description "step back" is sometimes "too strong", i.e. it hints that there is a complete weight transfer onto one leg, plus I'm not sure how many teachers emphasise that it should be led/followed -- especially difficult if also doing a "C" circle?

SpinDr.
(*) Didn't think I'd ever quote a West Wing episode here :)

Dreadful Scathe
19th-May-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
[B]trying to do exactly what the teacher does with exactly the same timing, no matter what the lead says. Not exactly back-leading, but more not listening to the lead.

Sounds exactly like backleading to me :) I do find that annoying especially as you really need to force your partner to stop just doing the moves by rote and forcing isn't nice. Part of the problem with backleading is what Emma said :) the class rotates and everyone experiences the delights of the miriad types of dancer. I can usually tell when theyve just been dancing with the 'not getting it weak lead bloke' that theyve had to drag round...ouch! Part of the experience though isnt it, adapt to your partner and if she wont co-operate, no big deal, maybe the next one will :). Or if you have really terrible BO they tend not to lead as they dont want to get too close...apparantly :D



{Just re-read this, and it seems I am placing the blame wholey at the feet of the ladies

Its always the leads fault. The only occassion it wouldnt be is if the follower tries to lead, but she/he is then the leader so its still the leads fault. If you cant decide whos leading you have problems :). In a class its slightly different becuase of the short time for both of you to adapt, and a class line is not 'dancing' in my book till both parties can do it. :)

oooh..lunch...

Emma
19th-May-2004, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by spindr
post hoc ergo propter hoc (*)?
BOO!

(that oughta do it)

Lynn
19th-May-2004, 01:05 PM
I usually try to go where I am led. In one class last Saturday the guy forgot one part and apologised at the end. Then we went through it again and I could tell he had forgotten again so I moved (gently, I hasten to add) in that direction to give him a reminder. At the end I apologised but he thanked me for reminding him. I think its different with beginner guys - you might need to make give some verbal reminders about where they are supposed to be leading. I also think you can do that in class where you are slowly stepping through a move, but not really in freestyle.

Just been to Southport and I think I learnt as much from the freestyles as the classes - so many moves I didn't know so had to totally rely on the lead - and had some lovely dances.

spindr
19th-May-2004, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Emma
BOO!

(that oughta do it)

Dance with me, that'll really give you something to complain about :)

ChrisA
19th-May-2004, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by spindr
I think you are drawing a slightly dubious conclusion here -- post hoc ergo propter hoc (*)?

Ok, I looked it up. And I think you're wrong :D

I'm distinguishing very carefully between leading (I don't know what "back leading" is, I think it's a stupid term in this context :rolleyes: ) and anticipating.

Anticipation is when in freestyle the follower thinks she's guessed what's coming, and dances that rather than what the leader had in mind.

At its simplest, it's the way ladies frequently step back after a return without being led, thus rendering the comb that the guy had in mind impossible.

Anticipation, however, is not leading. It is failure to follow, but that's not the same thing.

Follower leading, at its simplest, is where the lady cranks the guy's arm round in a semicircle whether he wants a semicircle or not. It's where the lady in the class, exactly as Emma described, guides the guy through the move, thus making it impossible for him to learn how to initiate the move himself.

Now the lady might also be inclined to anticipate - exactly for the reason you give, namely she knows some moves already - but in the class, it's only if the guy is executing it slower than the speed at which it's being taught (or counted) that the lady will need to lead it. This happens so often while the guys are getting their heads round the moves that many of the girls end up leading whether they need to or not.

I totally sympathise with Emma's description of the process by which ladies lead - and end up yanking - out of self-preservation, and by which guys end up unable to lead.

I'm suggesting that if a lot more attention was paid to guys not exerting force, ladies wouldn't have to resist so hard in order not to get injured. The ladies would then be safer from injury if they let the guys lead, so they would then not have to lead, guys would learn how to, and everything would go much better.

It's not going to solve the whole problem overnight - I got an extremely strong-willed middle-aged lady in my review class on Monday who, on her first night with no dance background, tried very hard to lead me, both in the review and in freestyle. I showed her how I could be just as strong-willed (though not over physically forceful) and at the end she thanked me :D

But it would be a start if the message about guys' and ladies' respective responsibilities were pushed a lot harder.

Chris

Emma
19th-May-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by spindr
Dance with me, that'll really give you something to complain about :) I wasn't complaining, just dealing with that nasty case of hiccups you seemed to have :)

DavidB
19th-May-2004, 01:41 PM
Backleading is a perfectly acceptable teaching technique, and on many occasions I've been very grateful when a lady has.

I have always had a problem doing moves behing my back. I have very limited flexibility in my shoulders, and have found a couple of these moves uncomfortable in the past. Over the years I've developed a very effective technique for avoiding this discomfort - I just stopped doing moves behind my back.

But if I do a class now I can almost guarantee that it will include one of these moves, and I am completely lost. I was very grateful to the lady that backled me at the start of Will & Kate's advanced class at Fulham a couple of weeks ago, because I didn't have a clue what I should do.

The good ladies know when to backlead, and when not to. They never backlead first time through a move. When they do, they do it very lightly. And they don't do it twice in a row. All this gives the man a chance to figure out what he is supposed to do. And obviously good ladies never backlead in freestyle.

I've heard one very good dancer describe backleading as a real test of your leading ability. For him leading was not just about leading moves, but reacting to your partner. If she backleads and you can't adjust to it and use it to your advantage, then you have a weakness in your leading.

David

Dreadful Scathe
19th-May-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by the Artful Emma
I wasn't complaining, just dealing with that nasty case of hiccups you seemed to have :)

I got it even if no one else did :D You know you can always cure a blokes hiccups by making them watch 'that' scene from "the Crying Game" ;)



Originally posted by ChrisA

Anticipation, however, is not leading.

I thought that was what 'backleading' was, the way others were describing it!? Anticipation is temporary removal of your lead as she does the move she thinks you're doing! As you are joined by the hand she is, in effect, leading (Albeit for a second or 2 for one particular move). If you're not leading her, shes leading herself. I suppose in some circumstances that wouldn't automatically mean she was leading YOU as well, but if you try to recover rather than just stop then you're only doing that because she 'lead' you into that recovery position.

Call the ambulance. :)

The biggest problem is during the classes when she is more likely to do 'anticipate', or try to, for ALL the moves. Surely that is her leading, even if she doesn't think she is.

ChrisA
19th-May-2004, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Backleading is a perfectly acceptable teaching technique

[snip]

The good ladies know when to backlead, and when not to.

So what is backleading? It clearly isn't anticipating.

Is it leading when done by a follower? If so, then sure, it's great when done helpfully. I've benefited from exactly that, in exactly the way you describe, on many occasions. I even ask ladies to do it sometimes, if I know they can.

If not, I don't understand this post.

But in any case, I wasn't disputing the importance of the lady taking the lead in appropriate circumstances, and expecting the guy to react appropriately.

"Appropriate", however, as you imply, isn't "all the time, with large forces".

I still blame the guys mostly, for the way ladies learn to do this, and I think there is a huge teaching opportunity being missed which, if taken, would in time greatly enhance the fun in MJ all over.

Chris

Jive Brummie
19th-May-2004, 05:27 PM
Good one this.

Personally when i do a class, be it a beginners or intermediate one, I always watch the teacher.....(I wouldn't know what to do otherwise). And to a certain extent, ignore my partner, copying the teacher move for move until i feel comfortable and more importantly, capable, of doing the move correctly. Once i'm at this stage, only then do i really start to concentrate on my partner and enjoying what i'm doing. To be honest, you're only with your 'class-partner' for part of a move anyway so whats the problem??

However, if you're not looking at your partner because you're so wedged up yur own chuff you don't think they're worthy of being looked at, then that's a different matter.....boo hiss to you if you do.........:what:

James x x

p.s. just thought of something else. I'm a person who responds far better to being shown the move than taking purely verbal commands. The old 'picture paints a thousand words' thing springs to mind......

Jive Brummie
19th-May-2004, 05:29 PM
Oh and another thing...........

I think backleading is perfectly acceptable aswell. If i don't know the move correctly and my partner does, then more fool me if i don't take there advice..........

just a thought.........:whistle:

Gary
20th-May-2004, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Sounds exactly like backleading to me :) I do find that annoying especially as you really need to force your partner to stop just doing the moves by rote and forcing isn't nice.
...


You so don't need to force your partner to stop. If I've got a lady who's desperate to lead me through moves despite what I'm trying to lead, I just let her go for it. I concentrate on following and making sure that neither of us get hurt. There's usually not enough time in normal rotation to explain the whole lead/follow thing, although I'll try to tell her gently that she is leading and that she shouldn't.

Gary
20th-May-2004, 01:40 AM
Originally posted by DavidB

I've heard one very good dancer describe backleading as a real test of your leading ability. For him leading was not just about leading moves, but reacting to your partner.


:yeah:

That's something I started working on late last year, I think after reading some spiel on lead/follow that Amir wrote. I believe it's helped me improve. Plus it's a whole new layer of challenge (like I needed another :tears: ).

Gadget
20th-May-2004, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by Jive Brummie
Personally when i do a class, be it a beginners or intermediate one, I always watch the teacher.....(I wouldn't know what to do otherwise). And to a certain extent, ignore my partner, copying the teacher move for move until i feel comfortable and more importantly, capable, of doing the move correctly. Once i'm at this stage, only then do i really start to concentrate on my partner and enjoying what i'm doing.
In the Intermediate classes I think that I watch the lady more than the lead on stage (*) - I watch to see where she should be going and her body position. The lead I normally only watch to pick up any subtalties about where their hands are at a specific point or how they move from a to b within a move.
For me it's more important that I know where the lady should be so that I can work out how to put her there. If I have trouble with getting this, then I look closer at the lead to spot where I am going wrong. After I have the lady moving in the right direction, only then do I watch for 'style' or other tips from the lead.

In the Beginner classes I am guilty of only listening to the teacher rather than watching them :blush: I tend to use this class as an experimental ground for improving what I do - mostly how I can move without disrupting my lead of the lady or how I can improve my lead by moving my body.
{and I do listen - Lorna is renown for slowing things down or inserting pauses just to see who is and isn't paying attention :sick:}


(* the fact we have Lorna & Lisa as teachers may, or may not have anything to do with this :innocent: :drool: :flower:}

Dreadful Scathe
20th-May-2004, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by the Dodgy Scathe

Sounds exactly like backleading to me I do find that annoying especially as you really need to force your partner to stop just doing the moves by rote and forcing isn't nice.


Originally posted by Gary
You so don't need to force your partner to stop. If I've got a lady who's desperate to lead me through moves despite what I'm trying to lead, I just let her go for it.

You misunderstood me(*1), you would have to force your partner to stop(*2) if you dont want her to do the moves by rote. You said you don't stop her you just let her do it. So do I. If a light forceful lead doesnt help theres no point in applying strength, like I said 'forcing isn't nice'(*3). Could always try slapping her on the forehead i suppose ?


(*1)either that or I've just misunderstood your reply :D

(*2) i.e. 'Stop leading herself', not 'stop!'

(*3) You too can introduce numbered asterisks in YOUR posts and make them much more professional ;).

DavidB
20th-May-2004, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
So what is backleading? It clearly isn't anticipating.Backleading normally means that the lady is leading herself into a move. Anticipation is a form of backleading - the man starts the move, and the lady finishes it off for him. In my very limited experience (3 dances as a follower), anticipation is a lot easier than following.

Backleading as a teaching tool is a bit more complicated. The man's lead becomes completely passive (ie there is still a connection, but no leading). The Lady guides herself through the move, and guides the man's hands where she wants them to be. The man has to match the pressure that the lady gives - this is how she indicates where the man will have to use compression/leverage when leading it properly. The key part is that the man has to be passive. If he is leading at the same time, then it becomes arm wrestling. If he is not maintaining the connection, then he isn't learning anything.

Lory
20th-May-2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by DavidB

The man's lead becomes completely passive (ie there is still a connection, but no leading). The Lady guides herself through the move, and guides the man's hands where she wants them to be. The key part is that the man has to be passive.
It also really helps with the passivity(*?) if the mans had 'one too many' I found this out last weekend in Ibiza! :whistle: :waycool: :rofl:

Sheepman
20th-May-2004, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Lory
I found this out last weekend in Ibiza! Oh Lory, I am shocked! Or maybe you are referring to your dearly beloved? Who was leading, and what style of dance were you doing? :blush:

Greg

Lory
20th-May-2004, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
Oh Lory, I am shocked! Or maybe you are referring to your dearly beloved? Who was leading, and what style of dance were you doing? :blush:

Greg
Well I was supposed to be clubbing but I got bored of it very quickly,:tears: then my sister dragged this poor guy over, and announced, he can do 'your style' of dance (which actually turned out to mean, he could wiggle in time and return a spin and that was IT):rolleyes:

But I have to say, he was very easy to 'backlead' as for style, I think I can fairly say, it was Unique! :whistle: :wink:

He came from Perth in Scotland and I told him about Ceroc, so maybe he might look it up, who know's? He definitly had potential!:nice:

Yogi_Bear
20th-May-2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by DavidB

I've heard one very good dancer describe backleading as a real test of your leading ability. For him leading was not just about leading moves, but reacting to your partner. If she backleads and you can't adjust to it and use it to your advantage, then you have a weakness in your leading.

David If I am understanding the meaning of backleading correctly, then I strongly agree with DavidB here. This is very much a part of my own dance experience. Of course, it may be that my lead is poor from time to time, or that she doesn't want to do the move, so she takes over.....suits me fine.
yb

DavidY
20th-May-2004, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Anticipation is when in freestyle the follower thinks she's guessed what's coming, and dances that rather than what the leader had in mind.IMHO an even worse variant of anticipation is when you dance with someone who is "ahead" of the music (especially on slow tracks).

She's already started the next move half-a-beat before I've had a chance to lead anything. :sad: :blush:

Daisy
20th-May-2004, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Ray doesn't read the forum, does he Daisy?? :D

Trampy

You've got the wrong Daisy this time Trampy!!

The post was made by 'Daisy Chain'.......I am plain little 'Daisy'.

However, I whole heartedly agree with the sentiments made by my close namesake and always enjoy oggling any fit talent that is teaching (or otherwise come to that)!

Ray only reads the Forum if I let him.....hee hee:wink:

When he asks me if there is anything interesting to read I just say NO....and he believes me. Good eh?:rofl:

Daisy (no chain)

:devil:

Daisy
20th-May-2004, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA


Anticipation is when in freestyle the follower thinks she's guessed what's coming, and dances that rather than what the leader had in mind.

Occasionally a lead can come across as being quite vague and we the followers have to try and interpret what is being led.

Some leads can be quite sloppy or lazy and can therefore be confusing to the follower.:sick:

On the whole most leads are great.:flower:

I don't think we would anticipate on purpose, what would be the point?:confused:

I noticed Mr Barker dancing with a few men recently....is he doing some kind of survey? Perhaps he has something to feed back on which may be of interest.:wink:

ChrisA
20th-May-2004, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Daisy
Occasionally a lead can come across as being quite vague and we the followers have to try and interpret what is being led.

Some leads can be quite sloppy or lazy and can therefore be confusing to the follower.:sick:
If you ever anticipated when dancing with me, you can be quite sure I would blame only myself :flower:

Chris

Andy McGregor
20th-May-2004, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Backleading normally means that the lady is leading herself into a move. Anticipation is a form of backleading - the man starts the move, and the lady finishes it off for him. In my very limited experience (3 dances as a follower), anticipation is a lot easier than following.

Of course, the Oracle has it right, apart from the semantics. He really means leader and follower.

When I'm following I sometimes backlead. To me that means I take back my free will. I don't try to lead the leader. I just try to stop the leader leading me. I do 'my thing' then I give the lead back to the leader. While the leader is stopped he/she can do what they like but I'm going to strut my stuff:wink:

Simon r
21st-May-2004, 05:49 AM
Andy this explains so much when i dance with you:D

Daisy
21st-May-2004, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
If you ever anticipated when dancing with me, you can be quite sure I would blame only myself :flower:

Chris


Chris....my dances with you have only ever been lovely.:flower: :kiss:

Simon r
22nd-May-2004, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by DavidB

I've heard one very good dancer describe backleading as a real test of your leading ability. For him leading was not just about leading moves, but reacting to your partner. If she backleads and you can't adjust to it and use it to your advantage, then you have a weakness in your leading.

David

I love dancing with a lady that backleads and tend to find that this is mostly found in the lindy scene, it gives you so much time to really listen and invent new moves best example for me is jules from hipsters, always a pleasure

MartinHarper
4th-November-2004, 01:55 PM
If I've got a lady who's desperate to lead me through moves [...] I concentrate on following

I've done this a few times in class, but it does have some side-effects. A variety of moves have the woman starting to do a return, then the guy stops her and leads her to spin in the opposite direction. If the same move is back-lead, then the woman ends up pushing the guy's hand to the right, letting go, and then spinning herself in the opposite direction. All well and good normally... but if I'm properly concentrating on following, and someone pushes my hand to the right and lets go, I'm going to spin. :)

CJ
4th-November-2004, 02:20 PM
... I was dancing in the Midlands and I have to say that, despite a few notable exceptions that- to be fair- actually made my whole trip to the Mids worth it, I have never been so back-lead, hand bounced AND thumb gripped in my entire dancing career (which spans some 10+ years)!! :sick:

As i say: some great dances that made everything worthwhile, but...

Gus
4th-November-2004, 10:03 PM
... I was dancing in the Midlands and I have to say that, despite a few notable exceptions that- to be fair- actually made my whole trip to the Mids worth it, I have never been so back-lead, hand bounced AND thumb gripped in my entire dancing career (which spans some 10+ years)!! :sick: Uuuurrrrr ...what clubs were you at (must make a note to avoid them!)

Welcome to Ceroc down south :( The trouble is when the focus is on moves rather than dancing this is what you can end up with .... and, to be fair, its not just the Midlands ... we've got our fair share of that type of dancing in the North West aswell :tears:

CJ
5th-November-2004, 12:49 AM
Uuuurrrrr ...what clubs were you at (must make a note to avoid them!)

Now, Gus...

You know me better than that!! I would never say...

...but some of the behaviour was somewhat lupine :wink:

MartinHarper
19th-November-2004, 02:13 PM
Suppose the move is a pretzel. It's been taught several times one step at a time, and everyone has been watching the teacher, which is fine. Now the time comes to dance it to a count. The guy offers his hand behind his back for the lady to take.
Perhaps you could explain exactly how it's helpful at this point for the lady to be watching the teacher?

Hmm. That's certainly always been my attitude.... but recently I've read a lot about the evils of visual signals, which has caused me to reflect on this. If a guy has a "pure lead/no signals" style of dancing, presumably it shouldn't matter so much whether his partner is looking at him, the teacher, the ceiling, or has her eyes closed? Or is there something else going on here?

David Franklin
19th-November-2004, 02:19 PM
Hmm. That's certainly always been my attitude.... but recently I've read a lot about the evils of visual signals, which has caused me to reflect on this. If a guy has a "pure lead/no signals" style of dancing, presumably it shouldn't matter so much whether his partner is looking at him, the teacher, the ceiling, or has her eyes closed? Or is there something else going on here?Well, most women don't turn very well while trying to stay facing the teacher...

Unless they're possessed by the devil, of course... :devil:

Dave

Gadget
19th-November-2004, 02:31 PM
Hmm. That's certainly always been my attitude.... but recently I've read a lot about the evils of visual signals, which has caused me to reflect on this. If a guy has a "pure lead/no signals" style of dancing, presumably it shouldn't matter so much whether his partner is looking at him, the teacher, the ceiling, or has her eyes closed? Or is there something else going on here?
The only people I have seen able to follow while their attention is elsewhere are teachers*: it's not so much the looking at your partner, I think it's where your 'focus' is.
If ladies are watching the stage, they are trying to mimic what the teacher/demo is doing instead of trying to follow what the man is doing. The more focus you put onto the stage, the less you have left to put into your partner.


* Actually I'm sure that CTA teach that - personally I think it works while actually teaching, but looks naff if they try to do it while demoing the routine/move before hand (it's a demo of how it should be done - I don't know that many move that should be done while watching your audience :wink: )

ChrisA
19th-November-2004, 04:43 PM
If a guy has a "pure lead/no signals" style of dancing, presumably it shouldn't matter so much whether his partner is looking at him, the teacher, the ceiling, or has her eyes closed?
Sure - but the girl needs a "pure follow" style of dancing too though.

Not often found in an intermediate class.

Chris