Dangerous moves?

[Gus]

OK ... quick disclaimer ... this thread is not being posted in the interests of starting another peverted conversation ... but it is a serious question to something that occaisionaly does bother me...

The problem is that the female body, though truly a wonderous sight and a joy to behold etc. etc, is rather badly designed for the purposes of some ceroc moves. The offending moves tend to be the catapult and secret move walkaround and the offending part of the woman tends to be .. ahem ... their 'chest':sorry

Plesae hear me out ... the standard concept in ceroc is that "there is always an invisible barrier between the lady and the gentleman and at no point will contact be made". Unfortunately this is not the case when doing a move like the catapult. As you bring the lady into your left handside in preparation for the spin out, the mans left arm (usualy elbow) often makes "inappropriate" contact. In fact when I use to demo with Sue Taylor many a time my left elbow would be rest in her cleveage as I would be desperately trying to make my elbow bend the wrong way to avoid contact.

I remeber during my training to teach beginners course asking Cliff how best to avoid this ... turns out he'd had the same thought ... and had no ready amswer.

SO ..the question is ...ladies ...do you even notice such contact and if so what can guys, or ladies, do to mitigate the embaressment factor?

[Emma]

Originally posted by Gus

SO ..the question is ...ladies ...do you even notice such contact and if so what can guys, or ladies, do to mitigate the embaressment factor?

Hmm... funnily enough someone I was dancing with the other night got an 'innapropriate handful' (work it out). I can't remember what the move was though. It didn't bother me at all, because it was an obvious accident, fleeting, and we just carried on dancing...so I wasn't embarrassed..dunno about him though! :nice:

There is one move, the name of which I can't remember..it's a first move variation where the man spins you round with his hand on your waist once or twice in the middle of the move before finishing it normally. Sometimes men's hands come up higher than strictly necessary (!). Again, it's not a big problem if it happens by accident. I have been in a position when it's clearly not been an accident, and my response was to grab hold of his hand and move it firmly downwards to my waistline.

I think what all that means is that I don't regard the contact as innapropriate unless it's deliberate. In which case I'd either say something or do something that made it clear that I wasn't having it. :what:

[Lou]

Speaking as a lady with ...ermmm... ample charms :what: , it's an occupational hazzard, anyway, and bloody difficult to avoid. I can tell the difference between accidental & on-purpose! :wink:

The hardest part was if I ever danced with Sheila, who has a similar sized chest. Neckbreaks were always... ermmm.. interesting!

[SwingSwingSwing]

In Lindy Hop we have the ABG, the Accidental Boob Grab. This happens doing a lindy turn with follows who don't keep their shoulders square with the leaders.

It goes like this. The leader starts bringing the follow forwards. The leader starts to turn his frame clockwise and starts reaching for the follow's left shoulder blade fully expecting the follow to keep her shoulders square. Unfortunately, the follow keeps going straight and doesn't turn her frame and the space that the leader was expecting to be occupied by the follows back is actually occupied by her left boob.

A variation on this is the Boob Squash. In this case, the leader does get his hand on the follow's shoulder blade but the follow doesn't keep square and squashes her "ample charms" (as Lou put it!) all along the leader's right arm.

I think I've only experienced a handful of ABGs but Boob Squashes happen all the time.

Getting back to Gus' problem. One way to minimise it with a Catapult is that when you bring the follow into your left hand side, keep your left elbow in at your side and offer your hand. So when the follow takes your hand your forearm should be well below the danger zone..(unless you're dancing with a follow much smaller than yourself). Unfortunately this probably doesn't do much for the look of the move.

SwingSwingSwing

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
Unfortunately this is not the case when doing a move like the catapult. As you bring the lady into your left handside in preparation for the spin out, the mans left arm (usualy elbow) often makes "inappropriate" contact.Odd, I can't say I have ever noticed that happening. When I first read your post I had to do a double take, as to me the Catapult is one of the most innocent moves... I have never been 'aware'' of any inappropriate contact :confused: Maybe I am doing it without noticing which could be embarassing :really: I will try and pay attention when dancing over the week-end :yum: and report back on Monday! :nice:

Franck.

[John S]

Franck, I have a complaint to make. Please can I learn the Nantwich Catapult?

You have obviously taught me how to do the catapult your way, as I really haven't been aware of any inappropriate contact (although I will take statements from witnesses at the weekend!)

The move where I'm most conscious of the danger of an ABG is the Catapult variation (don't know what it's called) where after the catapult the man does NOT offer his left hand, but goes backwards quickly under the lady's right arm and scoops her round the waist. As he has to judge without seeing her where her waist will be, the move has potential! (I do it all the time!)

I had a look on the excellent Jiveaholic website and found a move he calls the "CATAPULT BOOB" - don't know if that's the official Ceroc name. The man takes both the lady's hands in his RH, then when she is behind, the man keeps hold of both hands, rotates himself ACW, ducks under and comes up inside her arms - the move is apparently excellent for wiping the sweat from the man's brow!:devil:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Franck
I have never been 'aware'' of any inappropriate contact But I would imagine you don't have arms like Gus
http://www.ggus.co.uk/Gorgeo1.gif

Of course when Craig does this move, he's just being perverted.

If he didn't want to make contact, he doesn't have to pull the lady to be level with him before the spin. If he stays a few inches in front of her, and then steps back as he spins, he would have all the space he needs to lead and to prevent any possible embarrassment. I can only assume he likes rock-climbing, and feels happier with 3 points of contact...

David

[CJ]

Magnificent observation DavidB. (is that demented?)

Anyway, all said and done I am SO glad Gus asked the Q. Sometimes I have this particular difficulty doing the first move (usually during a class, with someone not danced with before regularly and, therefor, don't know dancing style) and have never felt comfortable enough to broach the subject.

Still not many practical answers, though.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Lou
Speaking as a lady with ...ermmm... ample charms :what: , it's an occupational hazzard, anyway, and bloody difficult to avoid. I can tell the difference between accidental & on-purpose! :wink:

The hardest part was if I ever danced with Sheila, who has a similar sized chest. Neckbreaks were always... ermmm.. interesting! Already thousands of men are having totaly 'inappropraite' thoughts.:sorry

Actauly, ample charms, though a thing of obvious beauty, do bring with them cetain challenges.

The first lesson I taught at another venue I was given a rather young and not too experienced demonstrator. Believe it or not, I was so nervous about teaching the lesson that I somehow failed to fully appreciate the demo's physical characteristics .... around 5' 1" and probably size DD/E chest! (I know ... I kid you not).

The real problem came with the third move which was a recuuring comb duckspin. We'd only practiced it once before we went on stage and I must have been standing further back .... anyway, the obvious happened ... bit like John S's brow wipe ... unfortunatley I didn't get that far .... there wasn't room for my head and her 'charms' under her arm so I just bounced off! Lucklily, I managed to modify my standing position and changed the moved to a single duckspin .... even then I was making far more contact than any man should have to do whilst been watched by 80 or so bemused punters.....

The real problem was that far from being put out ... the young lady actualy made an 'inappropraite' suggestion at the end of the night ... which consiedring she was engaged to someone MUCH bigger than me was extremely easy to resist....sufficeth to say I've never been back to that club since!

[Graham]

Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
Magnificent observation DavidB. I agree.
Originally posted by Ceroc Jock Anyway, all said and done I am SO glad Gus asked the Q. Personally I could have quite happily lived without it. Now I'm going to have a weekend of thinking about this (and what's a lot worse, probably quite a few partners who are thinking about it - was that accidental or deliberate? :what: :really: )
Originally posted by Ceroc Jock
Sometimes I have this particular difficulty doing the first move
I must admit, the catapult is not the move which would have sprung to mind - I think I probably perform it more as David suggests. The first move is certainly a more obvious candidate, and the other one where I've been a little bit nervous with "larger" partners is the basket, where you can easily end up using the follower's own arms as a kind of "wonderbra substitute".

I must admit that in this regard I have always assumed (correctly if Lou and Emma are representative) that ladies would not take offence at any accidental contact, and therefore I do not worry about this unduly unless it really is an unusual event involving my hands (such as the ABG described above) rather than my arms/body.

Incidentally a similar, but for me much more embarrassing, issue can arise when trying to catch a partner's hip during a spin. :really: :sorry

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
If he didn't want to make contact, he doesn't have to pull the lady to be level with him before the spin. If he stays a few inches in front of her, and then steps back as he spins, he would have all the space he needs to lead and to prevent any possible embarrassment. David .. I may no longer be a CTA teacher but I remain true to the old ways ..... the official way to do the catapult is to bring the lady to your side ... in fact, in freestyle, the move morks better if the lady is brought slightly in front .... Its more a question of 'ampleness of charms' and angle of the guys arms. A worse move is the secret move .. if the guy is significantly shorter the 'charms' can end up getting thwacked like a punchbag (yup ... these are all observed occurences from recent workshops and lessons).

I must stress that there is a big difference between the naturally occuring contact and deliberate groping ... only had to deal with one chap of the latter persuasion and he is now "persueing his dancing activities elsewhere".

Sometime, it has to be said its the ladies fault (not thats its ever the ladies fault because in Ceroc its ALWAYS the mans fault ... but if it was..). At Blitz Leeds last week I was doing secret move walkaround with a lass who kept on pulling her hands up at chest level ... at the break there was a slightly embarresing conversation while I explained why this was not such a good idea .... what I don't understand is why she didn't think it was a bit uncomfortable in the first place.

Still .. have seen women get their own back ... especaily out of the accordion comb crab when the lady (obviously being slightly disorienteted) has grabed too low and missed the offered hand ..:sick:

[filthycute]

Fortunately i've never had any of these problems...(none that i'm aware of anyway) Being of ...ahem..."slight" build, i've never quite managed to embarress any guys by "getting in the way"

But that didn't stop me reddening a couple of faces (including my own!) in London. Anyone going for the sarong look should always remember to be secure whilst a man is spinning you by the waist. It's not easy for guys to catch your hand when you come round to face, cause your hand is most definately not the first thing that catches his attention!! :what: :sorry
Never quite figured out how you do that "miss the mans hand" move that was mentioned earlier.

Practice makes perfect though :wink:

filthycute MAd. x x


PS. John, Franck and any other guys getting tips from/following this thread .....I'll be keeping my eye on you!!

PPS. ooops! probably should have mentioned that i wear my sarong as a top.....just before people start getting horrible visions :sick:

[Franck]

Originally posted by filthycute
PS. John, Franck and any other guys getting tips from/following this thread .....I'll be keeping my eye on you!!Well, did you?
I have to say that I checked over the last few days, and not once (even when deliberate.y trying :wink: :yum: ) did my left arm come in contact with my partner and yes, I brought her to my side before the spin... Very odd, that!
I suspect Gus will have to show me his Catapult technique!

On the other hand, a few of the ladies' hands did land (inadvertently?) on my posterior ( :really: ) bwhen doing the side to side cross slide!
I suppose accidental inappropriate contact can and will happen, but I cannot think of any of the 500+ Ceroc moves where it would happen as part of the move (ie un-avoidably)...

Franck.

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Franck
Well, did you?yep, i did. After dancing with men of all shapes/sizes/heights, i'm pleased to say that no one accidently brushed, scuffed, grabbed or manhandled me in the slighest.

(Won't be back to any of your parties!!):what: :yum:
On the other hand, a few of the ladies' hands did land (inadvertently?) on my posterior ( :really: ) when doing the side to side cross slide!
I suppose accidental inappropriate contact can and will happen, but I cannot think of any of the 500+ Ceroc moves where it would happen as part of the move (ie un-avoidably)...

Franck. Please tell me i didn't do this! Frantically trying to remember if we did this move....erm...yup, we did :what:
OH NO!! horrible visions :sick:
If i did, i'm so, so sorry.:sorry
If i didn't, well i'm still making a mental note to myself to keep my hands above waist level.....just incase! :sick:

filthycute x x

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Franck
On the other hand, a few of the ladies' hands did land (inadvertently?) on my posterior ( :really: ) Franck.

I did happen to notice you said "A FEW of the ladies hands"....

You'd think after the first couple of times you'd give up on the move.........:yum: :wink:

filthycute x x

[Franck]

Originally posted by filthycute
I did happen to notice you said "A FEW of the ladies hands"....

You'd think after the first couple of times you'd give up on the move.........:yum: :wink: Hey, I was not complaining about it! :wink: but in my defence, this happened during the workshop, so we had to keep practising over and over again, changing partner etc... :nice:
Nice move it was too! :waycool:

Franck.

[Franck]

Originally posted by filthycute
yep, i did. After dancing with men of all shapes/sizes/heights, i'm pleased to say that no one accidently brushed, scuffed, grabbed or manhandled me in the slighest.

(Won't be back to any of your parties!!):what: :yum: Well, yes, what a disappointment indeed :wink:
It could be to do with the fact that in Aberdeen, everyone is always on their best behaviour, or maybe that Lorna (Aberdeen teacher) has got the guys under her thumb! :really:

Still, if you want some mis-behaviour, you could always ask me for a dance and I can try some of my off-topic dancing!

Franck.

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Franck
Still, if you want some mis-behaviour, you could always ask me for a dance and I can try some of my off-topic dancing!

Franck.

I'm presumming you've learnt the "Nantwich Catapault" from Gus then? :wink: :yum:

filthycute x x

[Gus]

Originally posted by filthycute


I'm presumming you've learnt the "Nantwich Catapault" from Gus then? :wink: :yum:

filthycute x x

Philistines!!:reallymad

If you want a dangerous move try the variations on the ladies straightjacket (official Ceroc move) or a double handed dominator (Aussie move) ... both definitely come into the 'Up, Close and Personal' category.

Will be honoured to show the CEROC catapult on Sat and prove my point!!!!

Anyway Filthy ... as they say, there's no feeling where there's no sense:wink:

[Heather]

:wink: "........In life,as in art, the beautiful moves in curves....."
As anyone who knows me will testify, I am well endowed in the bosom department , but I can't say that I have EVER experienced any inappropriate contact in any of the Ceroc moves I have done since I first started 2 years ago.
HOWEVER!!!!! I was recently dancing with a fellow who shall remain nameless (to prevent his embarrasment), who asked me while dancing if he could look at my cleavage!!!!!
If you are reading this YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!!:wink: :wink: :D :D
Just as well I have a sense of humour and could only fall about laughing!!!!:D :D
Can't wait to dance the Nantwich Catapult with you Gus!!!! It will be a new experience for me!!!!
:devil: :devil:

:cheers:
Heather

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Gus


Philistines!!:reallymad

Will be honoured to show the CEROC catapult on Sat and prove my point!!!!


Only to prove a point???
Tsk Tsk...the things people will do eh :wink:

filthycute x x

[Gus]

Originally posted by Heather
:wink: "........In life,as in art, the beautiful moves in curves....."
As anyone who knows me will testify, I am well endowed in the bosom department.

Can't wait to dance the Nantwich Catapult with you Gus!!!! It will be a new experience for me!!!!
:devil: :devil:

:cheers:
Heather

ONLY if you sign a disclaimer absolving me of any blame and I'm allowed to sue you for any injuries incurred if I get my elbow stuck. :what:

[David Franklin]

Of course, it would take a particular kind of mind to see anything dodgy or dangerous about this move...

[Franck]

Originally posted by David Franklin
Of course, it would take a particular kind of mind to see anything dodgy or dangerous about this move... Wow :really: David, where do you get those :wink:
I would be interested in a video of the whole routine... Was she spinning at the time? :sick:

Franck.
(off to work on a new "Aerial moves" workshop)

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Franck
Wow :really: David, where do you get those :wink:
I would be interested in a video of the whole routine... Was she spinning at the time? :sick:

Franck.
(off to work on a new "Aerial moves" workshop)

Holy!! Now thats a dangerous move....one slip and......:what: it doesn't bear thinking about!

filthycute x x
(Off to find a partner for Francks new "Aerial Moves" workshop)

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Franck
Wow :really: David, where do you get those :wink:
I would be interested in a video of the whole routine... Was she spinning at the time? :sick:


Someone posted a link to it on rec.sport.skating.ice.figure (aka rssif) a while ago.

I don't have the video, but the odds are it's a spinning lift, because (if I understand the rules correctly) all but one lift in a competition skating routine have to be done while spinning.

If you want video, there's a clip of David & Sharon Savoy doing basically the same lift (travelling, not spinning) on their website (http://www.dancechampions.com) but the image quality is pretty appalling, and it doesn't show the entry to the lift.

Dave

[Emma]

Just felt the need to confess that I got someone 'innapropriately' in the eye last night during the intermediate lesson....:what: :waycool: :what: think the move was called a lazy backhander, or something.

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Emma
Just felt the need to confess that I got someone 'innapropriately' in the eye last night during the intermediate lesson....:what: :waycool: :what: think the move was called a lazy backhander, or something.


In the eye? can you elaborate for us Emma??
With your elbow? hand? head? :yum:

filthycute x x

[Gus]

Originally posted by Emma
Just felt the need to confess that I got someone 'innapropriately' in the eye last night during the intermediate lesson....:what: :waycool: :what: think the move was called a lazy backhander, or something.

Ahhhh ... it can only be termed 'inappropriate' if the gentleman concerned didn't enjoy it ... I think the common term for that particular variation is, from a smiling man's perspective, is know as a 'bonus' .... UNLESS his wife/girlfriend witnesses such a variation ... then its know as 'trouble'.:tears:

The backhander moves are fraught with risk, from grabbing things which aren't the hand though to trying to break elbows when the lady is pulled out of the move too fast ..... shame, it can be a nice move.

[Emma]

Originally posted by filthycute



In the eye? can you elaborate for us Emma??
With your elbow? hand? head? :yum:

filthycute x x

Er..right boob, hun. :waycool: That elaborate enough for ya? :wink:

[Emma]

Originally posted by Gus
Ahhhh ... it can only be termed 'inappropriate' if the gentleman concerned didn't enjoy it ... Hmm..he did ask to practice again later....:wink:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Emma
Hmm..he did ask to practice again later....:wink: The question that then must be asked is did you?:really:

I'm sure he only wanted to get it right ......

[Emma]

Originally posted by Gus
The question that then must be asked is did you?:really: How can you ask such a question and infer a slur on my otherwise blameless character??! :really: :wink:

The fact is, I hadn't thought much of it (after apologising, obviously) until he started boasting to the next woman when the class rotated around...:what: In other words: he didn't get a second go :nice:

[Tiggerbabe]

Just for you I think gus - H taught us a "basket triple step" at the weekend:yum: :yum:

I challenge you to manage that one without any "inappropriate" contact - well night impossible I would reckon and that's without Heather's ample charms:wink: :wink:

Re Franck's posterior patting - I didn't mean to do it and I'm really, really sorry:tears: :tears: :tears:

[Heather]

:wink: :wink: I wouldn't be so quick to apologise Sheena, I'm sure he enjoyed it!!!!!( Although he wouldn't admit it):innocent:
:cheers:
Heather

[Franck]

Originally posted by Sheena
Re Franck's posterior patting - I didn't mean to do it and I'm really, really sorry:tears: :tears: :tears: and there I was thinking, no, hoping that it was deliberate :tears:
After all that shimmying and twinkle in your eyes, I feel you have lead me up the garden path a bit... :wink:

Then I checked the "why do you go to Ceroc" and nobody went because they fancied their teacher!! :really: :sad:

Never mind, I'll live, at least when I go to Ceroc, I fancy the teacher!!! :nice:

Franck.

[Jon]

This thead has had me in fits of laughter. Especially that ice skater.

The only move I tend to have trouble with is the basket when my partner is short and has ample charms. But when it happens it is always by accident and I always applogise. Once she said I brushed her and I didn't even realise. As long as it's not a grab and it's an accidental brush I don't think either of you really mind you just get on with the dance. Besides most moves the lady can dictate how close she gets to her partner so maybe it's her fault :wink: :yum: :really:

[Graham]

Originally posted by Sheena
Just for you I think gus - H taught us a "basket triple step" at the weekend:yum: :yum:

I challenge you to manage that one without any "inappropriate" contact - well night impossible I would reckon and that's without Heather's ample charms:wink: :wink:


Yes, that one's quite tricky, as you need to create more space than with a normal basket.

Well, when I say "need", I suppose it depends on whether or not you want to avoid the contact. I notice that you inserted :yum: :yum: when referring to the move!!

[Tiggerbabe]

Well what do you expect Graham - I was dancing it with Franck:wink: :yum:

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by Franck
After all that shimmying and twinkle in your eyes, I feel you have lead me up the garden path a bit... :wink:

Franck. We did shimmy well together - didn't we?

The twinkle in my eyes was just the reflection of your smile :sick:

Lead you up the garden path a bit - MOI? Don't know what you mean Franck - us girls from Dundee are absolutely sincere in everything we do :wink: :wink:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by David Franklin
If you want video, there's a clip of David & Sharon Savoy doing basically the same lift (travelling, not spinning) on their website (http://www.dancechampions.com) but the image quality is pretty appalling, and it doesn't show the entry to the lift.
There are another couple of videos at http://www.supadance.us/david-vivienne.htm (warning - they take a LONG time to download!).

Sit and lever lifts like this are fairly straight forward. A sit lift is when the hand is on the ladies bum - the entry is a simple power lift. A Lever is when the hand is on the thigh (as in the skating photo). To get into this, the man holds near the ankle with his other hand, and the lady steps into it. It is less physical effort, but technically harder.
The interesting hand hold is in the crunch lift. This is similar to a sit lift, but the supporting hand is on the ladies lower stomach (and I mean *very* lower stomach)

Skaters quite often do transitions from one lift to another - I'm guessing thats how they did this one. I've never seen skaters do a lever entry to a lift - maybe it is something to do with the boots?

Now for a more complicated lift, try this...

http://www.supadance.us/images/david-vivian3_h.jpg

David

[Emma]

Now that's just *silly* :nice: :nice:

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
Now for a more complicated lift, try this...

David

I take it you get this move badly wrong only once.:tears:

Actualy Dave, didn't recognise you in the photo at first ... must say the dress suits you though I fear you may have put on a few pounds since the photo.:wink:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
Actualy Dave, didn't recognise you in the photo at first ... must say the dress suits you though I fear you may have put on a few pounds since the photo.I hated that dress. It always made my bum look big

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by DavidB
Skaters quite often do transitions from one lift to another - I'm guessing thats how they did this one. I've never seen skaters do a lever entry to a lift - maybe it is something to do with the boots?

I was guessing it would have been done as a transition from a two handed lasso lift, but that's just because most lifts facing that way are and it seems like the hands could be more or less in the right places.

Not sure why you don't see lever lifts - they certainly do lifts using the boots. It might be more to do with being on ice - it feels like it would be quite an unstable takeoff on ice.


Now for a more complicated lift, try this...

http://www.supadance.us/images/david-vivian3_h.jpg
Sale & Pelletier did a lift very like this in their skating gala performance. I didn't think it looked that hard (relatively). It doesn't seem to require the raw power that some of the other lifts do. I'll definitely try it in the pool first though...

Dave (who's been known to regrett saying a lift "doesn't look that hard"!)

[David Franklin]

Had a nagging feeling I was forgetting something with lever lifts in skating - I think they're actually banned by the rules:

From the US FSA website:

For all Pair Skating lifts the partners may give each other assistance only through hand-to-hand, hand-to-arm, hand-to-body and hand-to-upper part of the leg (knee or higher)
Dave

[DavidB]

Originally posted by David Franklin
Sale & Pelletier did a lift very like this in their skating gala performance. I didn't think it looked that hard (relatively). It doesn't seem to require the raw power that some of the other lifts do. I'll definitely try it in the pool first though...There is a very similar lift called a Gaynor. I first saw it in skating in a gala performance by a canadian couple several years ago (can't remember their names, but he was big!), but apparently it is quite an old lift. In a Gaynor the lady has one arm snaking around the mans arm, with the hand somewhere near his chest. It is relatively easy - the arm gives a lot of stability to the lift.

The lift in the photo is different in that Vivienne has both hands holding onto David's wrist. As far as I can remember, the entry is similar to a Gaynor, but the amount of strength and control required (for both David & Vivienne!) is a lot higher.

I wasn't aware there were so many restrictions on pairs lifts in skating. I know that Ice Dance has plenty of limitations, but I thought the pairs was like Theatre Arts in dancing - ie anything goes. It might explain why there is not as much variety in the lifts as you might hope for.

David

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by DavidB
There is a very similar lift called a Gaynor. I first saw it in skating in a gala performance by a canadian couple several years ago (can't remember their names, but he was big!), but apparently it is quite an old lift. In a Gaynor the lady has one arm snaking around the mans arm, with the hand somewhere near his chest. It is relatively easy - the arm gives a lot of stability to the lift.

I've heard it called a dolphin - from the right angle the woman does make quite a dolphin-like silhoutte. I saw a skating cabaret on holiday where they did it - close up it was very eerie - the weight looks so far over that it shouldn't be possible to stay balanced.


The lift in the photo is different in that Vivienne has both hands holding onto David's wrist. As far as I can remember, the entry is similar to a Gaynor, but the amount of strength and control required (for both David & Vivienne!) is a lot higher.
Couldn't make out from the photo exactly how they were making contact - I was meaning the moves are similar visually.


I wasn't aware there were so many restrictions on pairs lifts in skating. I know that Ice Dance has plenty of limitations, but I thought the pairs was like Theatre Arts in dancing - ie anything goes. It might explain why there is not as much variety in the lifts as you might hope for.
The story goes that there was a deliberate aim to go a different route from the existing skating exhibitions, and so rules were put in specifically to stop people doing some common "spectacular" moves.

I'm not sure whether there was also a safety issue with banning moves like headbangers. I can understand banning moves where the "difficulty" consists of seeing how close you can come to killing your partner without actually doing it.

These rules are frequently broken in the exhibitions though.

There's also a ban on "inappropriate" moves now - I think one couple was doing a lift where she was held at chest height, by the waist, inverted, while doing the splits. Made for some very entertaining camera shots but wasn't seen as being dignified(!)

Dave

[DavidB]

Originally posted by David Franklin
close up it was very eerie - the weight looks so far over that it shouldn't be possible to stay balanced. We were taught it once. It is actually remarkably well balanced - the lady's centre is directly over the man's shoulder, and the contact down the body makes it very stable. We never did it in a routine though - we couldn't figure out any way of transitioning into another lift. I think that's one reason why David & Vivienne do a differnt version.
I'm not sure whether there was also a safety issue with banning moves like headbangers. I can understand banning moves where the "difficulty" consists of seeing how close you can come to killing your partner without actually doing it. These rules are frequently broken in the exhibitions though.We were taught 'height equals fright' - if you make a lift high enough, it looks frightening to the spectator. It doesn't necessarily have to be that frightening to do. (Of course I speak as the man - I'm sure any lady who has been lifted might have a different point of view!)
There's one skating exhibition lift I've always liked - the lady is held in a bar, with the man holding onto the thigh and the rib-cage. If he spins fast enough, he can take one arm off...
There's also a ban on "inappropriate" moves now - I think one couple was doing a lift where she was held at chest height, by the waist, inverted, while doing the splits. Made for some very entertaining camera shots but wasn't seen as being dignified(!) There's no similar rule in dancing. I have seen moves like this done, and they got a bad reaction from the audience and the judges.

David

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by DavidB
We were taught it once. It is actually remarkably well balanced - the lady's centre is directly over the man's shoulder, and the contact down the body makes it very stable. We never did it in a routine though - we couldn't figure out any way of transitioning into another lift.
When done skating (where the man is a lot less static), I think it's easier to get away with doing it as a single move.

On land, I'd have thought you could maybe transition back into a bar position, but as you've tried and I haven't...


We were taught 'height equals fright' - if you make a lift high enough, it looks frightening to the spectator. It doesn't necessarily have to be that frightening to do. (Of course I speak as the man - I'm sure any lady who has been lifted might have a different point of view!)
Headbanger is kind of the opposite - girl is swung by the foot (like throwing the hammer), and active intention seems to be to get the head as close to the ground as possible. [If girl has long hair, you have it hit the ground on each turn!].


There's one skating exhibition lift I've always liked - the lady is held in a bar, with the man holding onto the thigh and the rib-cage. If he spins fast enough, he can take one arm off...That's another of the explicitly banned moves - even the two handed bit is banned if I recall correctly.

Dave

[dvduval]

Hi there,

I noticed that you pointed out a link on my new website that features David and Vivienne. I was just surfing and noticed the link and was quite surprised you found it already.

I've seen David and Vivenne perform twice and my life and I have to say that it's quite breathtaking. So have any of you tried any of these lifts? I used to do a little acrobatic stuff in swing when I was young (I'm 33 now-not too old).

Kind Regards,
David DuVal
www.supadance.us

[DavidB]

Originally posted by dvduval
I noticed that you pointed out a link on my new website that features David and Vivienne. I was just surfing and noticed the link and was quite surprised you found it already.I saw your posting on rec.arts.dance
I've seen David and Vivenne perform twice and my life and I have to say that it's quite breathtaking. So have any of you tried any of these lifts? I used to do a little acrobatic stuff in swing when I was young (I'm 33 now-not too old).We have competed against them a few times, including at Atlanta and Blackpool. ('Competed against' flatters us a bit!! We entered the same competition...)
We still occasionally do some of these lifts for shows, but we don't take it as seriously as we used to. We find it increasingly difficult to spend the time practicing, and would rather be out dancing. It is also impossible to get coaching in Theatre Arts in the UK.

33 is definitely not too old - I'm almost 36!

David