PDA

View Full Version : Jumps and Drops: Yay or Nay ?



Franck
12th-March-2002, 05:09 PM
A lot of discussions are about drops / dips / jumps / lifts / etc... and I was wondering what the general concensus on the Forum was.
So go on, vote. You can also post to explain your reasoning...
Personally, I am no big fan of lifts / throws, but I do like the odd dip / drop as long as they are safe...
Though I really dislike all of them when done for the sake of it rather than to fit the style of the music you are dancing to...:sad:

Franck.

Jayne
13th-March-2002, 10:34 AM
"I am neither a man nor a woman"???:what:

It made me laugh. I see that no-body has yet made that declaration, although I have my doubts about some people...:wink:

Only joking - I love you all!

Jayne:nice:

John S
13th-March-2002, 10:55 AM
"I am neither a man nor a woman"???:what:


Can the system identify who votes for this option?:eek: :confused: :(

Jayne
13th-March-2002, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by John S


Can the system identify who votes for this option?:eek: :confused: :(

Do you have something you'd like to tell us?? :wink:

Jayne

DavidB
13th-March-2002, 11:44 AM
Personally I think there is no place for lifts or drops in Social dancing. They are just far too dangerous on a normal dance floor.

They are for competitions and shows, or jam circles, or possibly empty dance floors if you are desperate to practice.

At some places in London (eg Hammersmith) you sometimes want to get off the floor before the end of the song, because you can guarantee that every man around you will throw his partner into a long, low drop. There is barely enough room for everyone to stand at the same time, let alone for half the floor to be lying down!

There is nothing seductive about putting your partner in harm's way.

David

Franck
13th-March-2002, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Jayne
"I am neither a man nor a woman"???:what:

It made me laugh. I see that no-body has yet made that declaration, although I have my doubts about some people...:wink:

Jayne:nice:

Jayne!:really: Have you been peeping under people's kilts on Saturday?:wink:

Looking at the results so far, it seems that those of you who voted are not that keen on lifts / drops... Just one of you ladies likes to be lifted / dropped / seduced !
So come on, acrobatics fans, where are you all, come out and be counted ! :nice:

Franck.

John S
13th-March-2002, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Jayne


Do you have something you'd like to tell us?? :wink:

Jayne

Errrr, not in public:sorry :wink:

jiveoholic
14th-March-2002, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by DavidB
Personally I think there is no place for lifts or drops in Social dancing. They are just far too dangerous on a normal dance floor.
David

I think it depends on the dance floor conditions. If it is packed, then I get upset by even those doing long walks like the columbian. If it is at the start or end of the evening, and the floor more clear then I think that, with some care, they can be acceptable.

Lyke wat I af'ta do at work - do a risk assessment each time!

Richard

Gus
16th-March-2002, 08:42 PM
I think there is a huge difference between lifys and drops ... though they both have the potential for disaster!

I've lost count of the number of people I've had to stop doing arials on the social dancefloor ..... I'm evene more amazed at their complete disregard for other dancers and the fact that half the time tyhey've not been taught the move properly. If the true experts at arials (i.e. Andy and Rena and Simon and Martialne) say you souldn't do them on a social dancefloor then thats good enough for me.

As for drops, they should only be dome with the ladies consent and the 'dropper' should know the drop well and be sure that the lady is unlikely to do something that will complicate things, like throwing her head back! Again ... seen loads of accidents ... most of them orignating from morons who have attended classes at a local cowboy in Stockport! Should carry a health warning.

Jane
29th-March-2002, 12:22 PM
I really like jumps and drops and throws and seducing and, and, and, and... :D :waycool:

However - I think they have to fit criteria ie, that it's just too inconsiderate on a crowded social dance floor - (feet flying around at head height and all that...) and that, for my safety, I'll only do these things if I know the man concerned and/or he has asked my permission beforehand. Most guys do that anyway so there's no problem there.

...but, ooh, somebody find me an empty dance floor and a capable man.... :devil: :D

Jane

Tiggerbabe
29th-March-2002, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Jane
I really like jumps and drops and throws and seducing and, and, and, and... :D :waycool:


...but, ooh, somebody find me an empty dance floor and a capable man.... :devil: :D

Jane

I'm with you gal!!!!!!! Glad to see I'm not the only one.:wink:

filthycute
31st-March-2002, 10:44 PM
Ok i'm gonna jump on the bandwagon......i'm 100% behind Jane and Sheena :D

filthycute x x

DavidB
2nd-April-2002, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by Gus
As for drops, they should only be dome with the ladies consent and the 'dropper' should know the drop well and be sure that the lady is unlikely to do something that will complicate things, like throwing her head back! Again ... seen loads of accidents ... most of them orignating from morons who have attended classes at a local cowboy in Stockport! Should carry a health warning.
Just because there is enough room to dance - it doesn't mean there is enough room to do drops.

I was dancing at the weekend in London, and had an interesting experience. The floor was fairly busy, but there was still plenty of room to dance. I was doing a fairly simple move (something a change of place) when I felt a strong push in the back. It was not a bump - it was a definite push. I looked round and there was a guy doing a drop right behind me. He had just pushed me out of the way so he could do the drop!

I saw the guy throughout the night. He seemed a fairly experienced dancer, but obviously saw nothing wrong with clearing his own space to dance.

Perhaps someone should tell him to go to Hammersmith...

David

jiveoholic
2nd-April-2002, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by DavidB

I looked round and there was a guy doing a drop right behind me. He had just pushed me out of the way so he could do the drop! I saw the guy throughout the night. He seemed a fairly experienced dancer, but obviously saw nothing wrong with clearing his own space to dance.
David

What a tactless way of doing it! A much better way is to perform the "floor sweeper" where you spin the lady round in a circle, stretched lengthways on the floor, so she knocks all the vertical feet out of the way!

Seriously now - I agree that even if there is enough room for dancing there may not be enough for air steps. Indeed Rena from jumpnjive broke her wrist when she collided with the only other couple on the dance floor!

Graham
10th-April-2002, 03:58 PM
There wasn't a category I liked in the poll. I would like to post as "I am a man who would like to do drops/dips etc, but isn't good enough to risk it".

I find that in a normal class there isn't enough repetition of a drop/dip with a suitable partner (many women either don't want to or are not a good physical match for me) to make me really confident about trying it in freestyle, or even to practise with a particular victim.

I don't know if I'd want to do a whole workshop of this, but I'd like to learn a couple of good dips/seducers properly. Any ideas, Franck?

Franck
11th-April-2002, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Graham
There wasn't a category I liked in the poll. I would like to post as "I am a man who would like to do drops/dips etc, but isn't good enough to risk it".

I find that in a normal class there isn't enough repetition of a drop/dip with a suitable partner (many women either don't want to or are not a good physical match for me) to make me really confident about trying it in freestyle, or even to practise with a particular victim.

I don't know if I'd want to do a whole workshop of this, but I'd like to learn a couple of good dips/seducers properly. Any ideas, Franck?

Well, there are some drops / dips workshops available every so often, but (mostly because I am no big fan of them) I have not organized any.
Viktor and Lydia are doing a workshop soon (in Edinburgh), and they usually have a couple of stunning moves (seducers / drops / etc...), definitely worth looking into.

If you just want to learn one or 2 moves properly, the best way would be to ask me (or any teacher), preferably after the Intermediate class. If you tell me what move you would like to start with, I can easily spend 10 minutes making sure you get the move right and most importantly safe. Preferably on a quieter night though.
All teachers will be happy to help as long as you do not monopolize the whole of the Freestyle :wink:

Franck.

Gus
16th-May-2002, 06:43 PM
Funny thing these drops ..... I've just got back from JiveSPree and seen classes where fairly advanced drops were shown to classes of around 400! The teachers were both the ideal size, small, and stocky. HOWEVER, there were many in the class who were tall, not physically well built and not in their 20's.

What I'm trying to say that a drop, especially one at speed, requires an understanding of balances, levers, use of power and balance etc. In my youth I did some martial arts and was tuaght about throws and locks. The principles are not too different to drops. The difference is that while we were strong and well trained we took our time to try these moves out. In dance I've seen totaly amatuers thinking nothing about throwing their partner around the place, putting strees on their backs, muscles and their partners nerves.

In short, drops should be taught properly by experienced teachers, and should be practised assidiously before been used in 'open combat'.

Drops can be real crowd pleasers but as an instructor I'm sick to the back teeth of dancers being dropped or knocked in to by over-enthusiastic dancers. I'm worried afetr seing what dancers try out after trying out a move for the first time. PLEASE, if you are into drops, plesae get taught by a good teacher then PRACTICE.

DavidB
16th-May-2002, 07:18 PM
Well said, Gus. Nice to see you (and Franck) have a good safe attitude.

Earlier this year we were doing a new drop in a routine. After warming up, we spent several minutes in a studio just working out the entry and exit.
Then we worked on how I would support her going down, how low to lower (not 'drop'!) her, how I would be positioned holding the low point, how I would pick her up, which foot I would place her on, and how we should finish.
Then we tried without doing the drop - ie Lily just crouched down instead of the correct position. This was to work on the timing.
Then we made sure we were still stretched out, and tried the drop slowly.
We built up the speed as we were getting happy with it, and eventually (after about an hour) tried it to music.
We didn't try it in the routine until about 3 practice sessions later, when we felt comfortable enough. We were actually pleased that we had managed to do it so quickly.

The first time I saw a large drops & seducers class, I couldn't watch. The phrase 'accident waiting to happen' had never been so apt.

It is a shame, because there are some very inventive drops out there, and they can look good. But please be careful learning and doing them.

David

Stuart M
17th-May-2002, 09:00 AM
Maybe one way to get dancers more comfortable with dips,seducers etc. is to teach leans more often? Not sure how many lean-type moves there are (I only know two), but it does get people more used to the higher levels of trust, coordination and spatial awareness required for dips, compared to other moves.

Maybe some teachers (not the ones I know! :) ) are too keen on inventing lots of fantastic variations on dips and seducers, without remembering that others need to travel the learning curve to be able to do them too!

Franck
21st-May-2002, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Earlier this year we were doing a new drop in a routine. After warming up, we spent several minutes in a studio just working out the entry and exit.
Then we worked on how I would support her going down, how low to lower (not 'drop'!) her, how I would be positioned holding the low point, how I would pick her up, which foot I would place her on, and how we should finish.
Then we tried without doing the drop - ie Lily just crouched down instead of the correct position. This was to work on the timing.
Then we made sure we were still stretched out, and tried the drop slowly.
We built up the speed as we were getting happy with it, and eventually (after about an hour) tried it to music.
We didn't try it in the routine until about 3 practice sessions later, when we felt comfortable enough. We were actually pleased that we had managed to do it so quickly.Wow, now that is what I call safe practice. I wish everyone did even half of that before attempting what I consider very dangerous moves...

I like leans / seducers (up to a point), and the odd drop can be fun when warmed up and with a partner whom you know can do the move; even then, while doing a drop kick the other night, I managed to "lower" my partner onto the floor :sad: :really: (Note that I *did* lower her, rather than drop her).
This was particularly unfortunate as a few minutes before I was explaining how I enjoyed doing the drop kick a particular way which felt "scary" but was really quite safe :sorry Famous last words indeed...

Franck.

Tiggerbabe
28th-May-2002, 07:56 PM
Come on Franck, spill the beans - why does this thread keep appearing in my "view new threads" thingy when there hasn't been anything new added to it?
I click on it expecting some words of wisdom ( or whatever! ) only to be let down yet again:confused:

How's the babysitting quest going? If you are coming through I wouldn't try doing thirteen spins if you're dancing with FC coz she's bound to get fed up waiting and will be off to the ladies to change her entire outfit :what:

See you Friday,:cheers:

DavidB
29th-May-2002, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Sheena
why does this thread keep appearing in my "view new threads" thingy when there hasn't been anything new added to it?It is when somebody votes. Took me ages to figure it out.

Franck
29th-May-2002, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Sheena
Come on Franck, spill the beans - why does this thread keep appearing in my "view new threads" thingy when there hasn't been anything new added to it?
I click on it expecting some words of wisdom ( or whatever! ) only to be let down yet again:confused: DavidB got it right, everytime someone votes on the poll, it counts as a new posting. I realise it might be frustrating on the odd occasion, so I suppose, everyone who votes, should also post a quick comment on why they voted that way, and share their tuppence...


Originally posted by Sheena
How's the babysitting quest going? If you are coming through I wouldn't try doing thirteen spins if you're dancing with FC coz she's bound to get fed up waiting and will be off to the ladies to change her entire outfit :what:

See you Friday,:cheers: Well tricky so far, we have had a Chicken Pox epidemic over here, and Christopher my youngest is still pretty poorly. I am hoping he will be better by the end of the week, and will see if Grandma can help!

Franck.

Curtain
13th-November-2002, 01:17 AM
Didn't one of your other children have Chicken Pox not so long ago? Or was I dreaming? Hope he gets well soon, but I sincerely hope you didn't bring it to Aberdeen with you!!!

Tiggerbabe
13th-November-2002, 07:29 PM
Not dreaming curtain - just not paying attention to the date of Franck's post - I suspect someone just voted!!!!!!!!

Bill
13th-November-2002, 07:49 PM
Had my say on dips and drops before........but hey, why not repeat myself :D :rolleyes:

I like seducers and SOME drops and tend not to do them with many women mainly because they may not know the move, they're new, they may not like it etc..but also ( and often mainly ) because as David says - it's potentially very dangerous.

I can't believe the way some men drop their partners or almost throw them around with a complete disregard for the safety of the woman or for other dancers :reallymad :tears:

Many of us do go into drops at the end of a song - if it's appropriate but I can feel myself tense when I see a man who's not been taught how to do a jump or drop properly attempt to get the woman to do the move. Thankfully some women will just refuse or pretend they didn't see or understand the signal :grin: :what: but I htink if a teacher spotted someone doing this they really should have a word with the man.

Equally, as has been said before, some women throw themselves into drops ( whole thread about this one with major contributions from Gus :nice: ) which is equally dangerous.

Even if the teacher at a class telles both men and women to be careful, goes through the safety routine etc... there will be dancers who will just ignore this. What is also irritating for women ( I believe) is when some men disregard what the teacher says and tries to rush ahead - and ends up making a pig's ear of the routine in class and then blames the woman for getting it wrong !:reallymad

To the right kind of song and with sufficient space then some lifts ( I do a few mini-aerials we learned at Beach Boogie with Fran, Lisa and Laura on the odd occasion ) can be good fun but I always try to watch what's going on around me. Doesn't always work but the point of dancing is to have fun and try and intrerpret the music - not to throw some unsuspecting female around the room till she throws up. :tears: :eek:


So as they used to say on Hill St Blues............. ( ah..one of my favourite words :grin: )....be careful out there :na:

Curtain
13th-November-2002, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by Sheena
Not dreaming curtain - just not paying attention to the date of Franck's post - I suspect someone just voted!!!!!!!!

Yes that would make a lot of sense. Seemed like a little bit of deja vu was setting in. I really must begin to read everything on a post before sticking my big foot in. That's twice now!!

Graham
14th-November-2002, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by Curtain

sticking my big foot in. That's twice now!!
I can't be bothered searching, but this seems a bit on the low side surely :wink: :devil:

Stuart M
14th-November-2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Bill
Equally, as has been said before, some women throw themselves into drops ( whole thread about this one with major contributions from Gus :nice: ) which is equally dangerous.

Mairi taught a dip last night, and unfortunately one of the ladies I practiced with during the class was like that - flung herself backwards with abandon during the run-through. :mad:

Wish I'd remembered to tell her off - even during a class it's risky. Made mental note to avoid her anyway, in case she misinterpreted a signal of mine later on.

Most of the responsibility for safety should still reside with us gents, however - although Mairi taught some good avoidance strategies for the ladies last night which helps.

Dreadful Scathe
14th-November-2002, 12:49 PM
Heard a story recently of a woman who mistook a move as a pre-drop move and flung herself into one - her partner just managed to catch her and damaged his back in the process. And she's a taxi dancer now - presumably shes a bit more sensible ;)

names ? i dunno guv, wasnt me :)

Graham
14th-November-2002, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Stuart M

Wish I'd remembered to tell her off - even during a class it's risky. Made mental note to avoid her anyway, in case she misinterpreted a signal of mine later on.
I really think that you should say something in these circumstances - risk of injury should override the normal rules of ceroc etiquette.

Lorna
14th-November-2002, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Graham
I really think that you should say something in these circumstances - risk of injury should override the normal rules of ceroc etiquette. I completely agree, avoiding the woman in the future doesn't solve anything. The lady in question will keep doing it and next time it may result in an injury. If you feel embarrassed about approaching her you could always speak to the teacher who would then have a polite word.


In reply to the original thread, I personally love all kinds of lifts and drops as long as they are performed safely. I believe that as a teacher it is my responsibility to teach these moves well. I spend extra time with my demo preparing for most if not all eventualities. In a class I do stress the importance of safety with these types of moves, so much so that I'm sure the class are thinking, 'Oh No, not the long- winded safety talk again'.

These moves look great but should only be performed with someone that you feel confident with. A few weeks ago a guy tried to seduce me (yeah I should be so lucky) but I refused to go down, (goodness this gets worse - sorry). I simply did not feel safe and I explained, and that was that, we carried on and had a great dance.

There is also a time and place for moves such as these and may I stress : a busy dancefloor is NOT the place!

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

Dreadful Scathe
14th-November-2002, 02:37 PM
I tend to avoid doing dips and drops with people I dont know, but lately ive started asking people if they mind a drop or two - i once got a response of 'do anything you like to me' - erm..which was nice :)

I hope im generally safe when i do do drops.

Bill
14th-November-2002, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I tend to avoid doing dips and drops with people I dont know, but lately ive started asking people if they mind a drop or two - i once got a response of 'do anything you like to me' - erm..which was nice :)

I hope im generally safe when i do do drops. I'm sure you are DS !!:grin: ...........and I'll bet F. was delighted to hear that another woman told you you could do anything to her !!!:sorry :what:

Bill
14th-November-2002, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Lorna
In a class I do stress the importance of safety with these types of moves, so much so that I'm sure the class are thinking, 'Oh No, not the long- winded safety talk again'.

That's if everyone is actually listening to you Lorna :mad: :tears:
There are some men and women who think they know everything so just don't listen but as I said earlier they then get the moves wrong because they don't pay attention. Bad enogh on a normal move but even worse on any kind of seducer/drop/lift.

A few weeks ago a guy tried to seduce me (yeah I should be so lucky) but I refused to go down, (goodness this gets worse - sorryLotsa love Lorna x-x Quote to talk again.

Heavens............ and you a quiet young woman --- with a young baby now ! :rolleyes: Does Tim know about all this. Tut tut... young women these days................ :D :na:

Lorna
14th-November-2002, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Bill
Quote to talk again.

Heavens............ and you a quiet young woman --- with a young baby now ! :rolleyes: Does Tim know about all this. Tut tut... young women these days................ :D :na:

Well Bill, you taught me everything I know! :wink:

lotsa love Lorna x-x

Stuart M
14th-November-2002, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Lorna
I completely agree, avoiding the woman in the future doesn't solve anything. The lady in question will keep doing it and next time it may result in an injury. If you feel embarrassed about approaching her you could always speak to the teacher who would then have a polite word.

Well, it was a lesson learned - I'll be quicker to criticise in future where dips are concerned. Unfortunately I can't remember any distinguishing features about the lady - she wasn't a Glasgow regular.
In her (and my) defense it was at the start of teaching the dip, so maybe she got it right later. And I would have said something if it happened during freestyle (though as I'd never try a dip unless it was someone I knew fairly well, this ain't likely!) :nice:

Bill
14th-November-2002, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Lorna
Well Bill, you taught me everything I know! :wink:

lotsa love Lorna x-x So that must be why I can't remember anything then !!!!!!:what: :sick:

One move won't get you very far :D :innocent:

Lorna
14th-November-2002, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Bill
So that must be why I can't remember anything then !!!!!!:what: :sick:

One move won't get you very far :D :innocent: Mmmm...... don't quite get what you mean. Are you being a little cheeky? Surely not!!:really:

Anyway, I am currently being distracted by my child. You remember the 'gorgeous wee tootie' I was referring to earlier? Well she's just pooed all over her towel. Lovely! :rolleyes:

You are coming tonight, yeah? (to demo for me, you marvellous specimen of a man).

lotsa love lorna x-x

Bill
14th-November-2002, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Lorna
? Well she's just pooed all over her towel. Lovely! :rolleyes:

You are coming tonight, yeah? (to demo for me, you marvellous specimen of a man).

lotsa love lorna x-x emmm.......thanks for the info Lorna. Sure everyone here will be delighted to know your daughters bowels are functioning properly :rolleyes: :sick:

I'll try to keep that from my mind when we're on stage tonight :grin:

horsey_dude
18th-November-2002, 10:25 AM
I would just like to say that I have never seen anyone do any kind of lift that looked good (I am not kidding).

The people that seem to love them the most are people that are basically not good dancers (sorry if this offends anyone) who think that if they do the flashiest most difficult moves then everyone will look at them in awe.

Maybe its because I do Ceroc for enjoyment and like to freestyle in clubs where there is no room for that kind of stuff that my opinion is a bit coloured but I say THEY SUCK!

The best people that I have seen that really hypnotise a crowd often don't do a lot of really flashy stuff but their timing and style stand out through a crowd.

Gadget
18th-November-2002, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by horsey_dude
I would just like to say that I have never seen anyone do any kind of lift that looked good (I am not kidding).
Sorry, but this is crying out for a pun...

Obviously horsey_dude would say 'Neigh'

... couldn't help it; sorry 'dude. :waycool:

Will
18th-November-2002, 12:18 PM
A Horsey that doesn't like jumps???? :D

Dreadful Scathe
18th-November-2002, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by horsey_dude
I would just like to say that I have never seen anyone do any kind of lift that looked good (I am not kidding).

Youve not seen the Jump and Jive folks then thats for sure :)

DavidB
18th-November-2002, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by horsey_dude
... like to freestyle in clubs where there is no room for that kind of stuff ...Some of the teachers at Camber were going up to couples doing aerials in the freestyle, and asking them to stop. It must have had some effect - I saw very few over the weekend.

Then again a lot of the couples were too busy doing drops to do aerials...

The best people that I have seen that really hypnotise a crowd often don't do a lot of really flashy stuff but their timing and style stand out through a crowd.Couldn't agree more. The easiest way to impress most non-dancers is by doing something flashy. But the only way to really impress a dancer is by dancing well, and that is hard. Lifts and drops are simple in comparison.

David

horsey_dude
19th-November-2002, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by Will
A Horsey that doesn't like jumps???? :D


Very funny! I will travelling round the UK next year and hope to visit Scotland as my grandfather was scottish and I am quite keen to see the country that he came from. Its nice to know that the ceroc people are a bit more laid back than the ones here.....

Bill
20th-November-2002, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by horsey_dude
I would just like to say that I have never seen anyone do any kind of lift that looked good (I am not kidding).


The best people that I have seen that really hypnotise a crowd often don't do a lot of really flashy stuff but their timing and style stand out through a crowd.



Although I'm not as extreme in my views on lifts as you are HD I would certainly agree with the timing and style standing out.

I think drops and lifts can 'wow' some folk - especially beginners but they often don't look very good.

However, as DS points out the couples who specialise in lifts can make them look very good ( eg Andy and Rena). Others forget about the music and spend time just doing lifts - regardless of the music :sick: :rolleyes:

But if it's safe and if there is room ( not often ) then I don't mind others doing them - as long as they don't invade my space :reallymad

And yes..........we are pretty laid back here in Scotland. Some very good dancers so if you make it over then we'd love to see you. I was in NZ a couple of years ago and was surprised at the nature of the classes - no single classes here - or Advanced classes. I felt very very much a novice :sorry Didn't dance in Wellington though - only in Aukland.

jivecat
27th-October-2003, 02:09 PM
I really enjoy doing dips and drops with a partner that I feel secure with, luckily there are lots of those. However, it can be very alarming to be thrown into a drop by someone who has not mastered the technique yet or by an unfamiliar partner only seconds into a dance. Some guys ask me if I am happy to do drops, I really appreciate their courtesy. If guys are struggling with the technique for drops I would be happy to help them practise, but not in the context of a crowded dancefloor as I do not like being put in danger/being made to look stupid! Vain, I know. It's only Ceroc!

TheTramp
27th-October-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Lorna
I completely agree, avoiding the woman in the future doesn't solve anything. The lady in question will keep doing it and next time it may result in an injury. If you feel embarrassed about approaching her you could always speak to the teacher who would then have a polite word.Hey! What happens if it is the teacher who throws herself towards the floor?? :wink: :blush: :rolleyes:

Steve

Chris
27th-October-2003, 02:37 PM
I couldn't answer in any of the categories of the poll . . .

I like dips, drop, seducers, lifts, jumps (all different IMO) but . . .

I haven't seen Franck or Lorna teach a dips and drops class so nothing personal here, but "stressing safety" is not enough to ensure moves are done safely. Many Ceroc teachers, I am sorry to say, are not trained extensively in drops. I have had this out (quietly in the break) with a Ceroc teacher who I felt was missing essential safety points and he replied "that's too much for people to take in".

Those who teach drops well seem to have learnt the phsyical dynamics in another discipline, whether ballet or ballroom or whatever. Ceroc is very much a 'street' dance and the way they avoid serious injury as far as I can tell is by having a list of moves that should not normally be taught (which includes a lot of drops and lifts).

You end up with a style that maximises safety in the face of 'badly' executed drops, which means that the guy compensates for a lady who throws herself back by lunging further than he should need to, holds the lady in such a way as to minimise strain on his back when he doesn't keep it straight etc etc.

I love doing drops with girls who have been taught what I think of as good dance technique - right-bum-to-heel, over her own weight, tenses the stomach muscles etc. I tend not to do drops with girls that don't appear to have that technique as I'm there to enjoy dancing with them not show them how I think they should dance.

Seducers and dips I'll do with anyone - there is less risk attached (to either of us) and I can get a sense in a baby seducer or lean as to how the girl takes responsibility for her weight distribution and balance.

Lifts and jumps are also pretty different. My personal feeling is that it's fun to learn jumps (especially from people like Andy and Rena who not only teach very safely but can and do explain what's happening in your body and why you need to do it a certain way.) I also think there's no place for them on a dance floor unless it's the start or end of the night where it's more or less empty. They're mostly for cabaret or competitions where there are few dancers on the floor I think.

Lifts are different - there are lifts in a straight line that do not involve limbs flying all over the place are don't make those round about feel uncomfortable. I can only think of two like this that I know how to do and one that I would like to do but can't, but I'm sure they may be others. But I'd only do them with a partner where we both felt comfortable and where I felt it wasn't going to make other dancers uncomfortable (even doing stuff like this safely can make beginners feel a tad uncomfy!)

I'm not trying to criticise, and there's stuff I'd feel happy doing at Hipsters or in NZ that I wouldn't in a lot of other places. One reason is that beginners (or just the accepted what-is-done) may easily wander into your dance space - and, however unreasonable, an accident is still an accident.

ChrisA
27th-October-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by horsey_dude
I would just like to say that I have never seen anyone do any kind of lift that looked good (I am not kidding).

Well, I'm going to say it, and doubtless others will too.

David and Lily's cabaret at Rock Bottoms on Saturday night, with lots of lifts and drops was totally, unequivocally, staggeringly, heart-stoppingly, spectacularly, awesome.

I have never seen a showcase like it - athleticism and visual excitement in spades, but without sacrificing an iota of grace, style, musicality, or even dancing together. Every movement flowed seamlessly into the next.

My spine literally tingled as I watched, and it does again now recalling the memory.

Total respect, guys, it was beautiful.

Chris

Bardsey
27th-October-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Jayne
"I am neither a man nor a woman"???:what:

It made me laugh. I see that no-body has yet made that declaration, although I have my doubts about some people...:wink:

Only joking - I love you all!

Jayne:nice:

Stangely enough, 4 have now voted that way. They would be interesting to meet!!!! Could they be dogs from a previous thread?:rofl:

Forte
27th-October-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Well, I'm going to say it, and doubtless others will too.

David and Lily's cabaret at Rock Bottoms on Saturday night, with lots of lifts and drops was totally, unequivocally, staggeringly, heart-stoppingly, spectacularly, awesome.

I have never seen a showcase like it - athleticism and visual excitement in spades, but without sacrificing an iota of grace, style, musicality, or even dancing together. Every movement flowed seamlessly into the next.

My spine literally tingled as I watched, and it does again now recalling the memory.

Total respect, guys, it was beautiful.

Chris

I am sorry I missed it:tears: When are you coming to Scotland again, LilyB and DavidB? Loved your routine and workshop in Perth.

jivecat
27th-October-2003, 04:45 PM
I should add that I'm not a Ceroc teacher although I have toyed with the idea of teaching it to Year 2 (wish I'd started that young!). I've been dancing about 2 years, the quest for perfection continues!

bigdjiver
28th-October-2003, 10:15 PM
Someone at the venue last night, back from Rockbottoms.
First comment "We danced until 3am"
Second - David & Lily were fabulous, they did this move ...

Rachel
30th-October-2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Well, I'm going to say it, and doubtless others will too.

David and Lily's cabaret at Rock Bottoms on Saturday night, with lots of lifts and drops was totally, unequivocally, staggeringly, heart-stoppingly, spectacularly, awesome.

I have never seen a showcase like it - athleticism and visual excitement in spades, but without sacrificing an iota of grace, style, musicality, or even dancing together. Every movement flowed seamlessly into the next.

My spine literally tingled as I watched, and it does again now recalling the memory.

Total respect, guys, it was beautiful.

Chris Couldn't describe it better myself - I absolutely agree with you. Stunning! I remember telling Marc that it almost had me in tears!!

Tazmanian Devil
3rd-November-2003, 12:42 AM
I am neither a man nor a woman!!:rofl: :rofl: Well you don't know anything is possible these days :wink:

I Love lifts and drops but I will only do them with Men that I know, know what they are doing.:hug: :kiss:

Dreadful Scathe
7th-November-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by horsey_dude
I would just like to say that I have never seen anyone do any kind of lift that looked good (I am not kidding).


so, should we denounce Horsey Dude as a heretic and send screaming mobs of peasants after him. Ill be in a mob at the front with a torch :).
We shall shout, 'Lifts are great if done correctly'
'Go see a musical'
'Have you never seen a ballet?'
''Open your mind to dance, or be forever shackled'

...and stuff like that, mob rousing isnt it :)






look peasant mob, a talking gorilla posting to a human forum...get it...chase it...hunt it down like an ape...damn! its escaped up the empire state building...call in the planes...hang on these are bi-planes, aren't we in the 21st century?..whats he doing with that blonde...why are you all standing around...who organised this mob...no its wasnt me...you're a rabble you know that...look, i know thats the point but cant you be more in tune with each other...i'll tell you who appointed me leader, me, you got a problem...oh you do...you ALL do...er...ok...er...take it easy...boomer help me, theres a mob...aaaaargh

jivecat
11th-November-2003, 10:34 PM
Ahem!..............I was under the impression that this was supposed to be a forum about dancing.

Neil
11th-November-2003, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by jivecat
Ahem!..............I was under the impression that this was supposed to be a forum about dancing. What a strange delusion :what:

(blimey, jivecat, if you think this thread is bad, you ain't seen nothing yet :wink: )

:hug:

Neil

Bardsey
12th-November-2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by jivecat
Ahem!..............I was under the impression that this was supposed to be a forum about dancing. Try going Upstairs.... then have a rethink :rofl: Dance? Well.....sort of :rofl:

Bill
12th-November-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Bardsey
Try going Upstairs.... then have a rethink :rofl: Dance? Well.....sort of :rofl: and if you go upstairs you never know what someone might be wearing under her dress.....................:rolleyes: :blush:

Dreadful Scathe
12th-November-2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by jivecat
Ahem!..............I was under the impression that this was supposed to be a forum about dancing.

Apart from er...adding a few irrelevant points to my last post on this thread - i was disagreeing with Horsey Dudes comments about there lifts never looking good. Perfectly on topic.

So in reality my posts are much more relevant than yours :). so there! :rofl:

Bardsey
12th-November-2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Bill
and if you go upstairs you never know what someone might be wearing under her dress.....................:rolleyes: :blush:

:blush: :rofl: :blush: :devil:

Bill
14th-November-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by Bardsey
:blush: :rofl: :blush: :devil: hee hee...............................:innocent: :wink:

Chris
27th-November-2003, 12:09 PM
In today's news a ballerina who was sacked by the Bolshoi amid reports that she was too heavy has won a lawsuit against the ballet theatre. Anastasia Volochkova was fired in September after the Bolshoi director said she was too large to lift.

She's (5 ft 7 in) tall and weighing 50 kg (110 pounds) - sounds a bit under 8 stone to me . . .

There's not much of a direct comparison (ballet lifts, I believe, are probably more strenuous than jive lifts) but it maybe suggests the question of technique in jive aerials, which varies widely (and which helps or hinders the lifting of a partner especially when the man is not very strong and the woman is not a size eight).

Discuss?

Graham
27th-November-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Chris
Discuss? I've thought long and hard about this and decided I'm still quite fond of living.

azande
27th-November-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Graham
I've thought long and hard about this and decided I'm still quite fond of living.

:rofl: Agree 100%!

jiveclone
27th-November-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Chris
She's (5 ft 7 in) tall and weighing 50 kg (110 pounds) - sounds a bit under 8 stone to me . . .

Discuss?

It depends on the jive move in question, for baby aerials like the ceroc logo move there should not be much problem going over 8 stone with the correct technique. Obviously there will be some limitation as to how far over 8 stone it is sensible to go.

Andy and Rena perform quite a few larger aerials, and Rena probably weighs a bit more than 110 pounds. Also Rena often throws Andy around, and he probably weighs over 150 pounds.

However for the more extreme aerials, as performed by David and Lily, weight is likely to be a significant factor even with correct technique.

Sheepman
27th-November-2003, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by jiveclone
Rena probably weighs a bit more than 110 pounds. :rofl: :rofl:
(Sorry Rena - but we know there is not 1 ounce that is out of place!).
Of course there is a balance of weight, strength, technique and confidence. I have done air steps (long ago) with Rena, who (used to) weigh more than me. It was a piece of cake compared to my inexperienced reluctant partner who was much smaller. I have also seen Andy "thrown" by partners much more pettite than Rena.
I think you need the strength more when you are practicing these things, because that's your "safety factor" when your not getting the technique right.

Greg

TheTramp
27th-November-2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
:rofl: :rofl:
(Sorry Rena - but we know there is not 1 ounce that is out of place!).
Of course there is a balance of weight, strength, technique and confidence. I have done air steps (long ago) with Rena, who (used to) weigh more than me. It was a piece of cake compared to my inexperienced reluctant partner who was much smaller. I have also seen Andy "thrown" by partners much more pettite than Rena.
I think you need the strength more when you are practicing these things, because that's your "safety factor" when your not getting the technique right.

Greg I remember doing Andy and Rena's big airstep classes way back when.

We used to do the moves in 4's - for the safety factor.

I'd do the move with my partner, and the other couple would do it. Then I'd do the move with the other lady. And the other guy would have a go with my partner.

Then Andy would come over to check how we were doing. And more often than not (I think that the only one we didn't try was the candlestick - though I'm up for it), I'd then do the move with Andy :D

Steve

Sheepman
27th-November-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
I'd then do the move with Andy :D Hang on Steve, you're not suggesting that YOU'RE more pettite than Rena are you? :really:

Well maybe :wink:

Greg

David Franklin
27th-November-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by jiveclone
It depends on the jive move in question, for baby aerials like the ceroc logo move there should not be much problem going over 8 stone with the correct technique. Obviously there will be some limitation as to how far over 8 stone it is sensible to go.The following shows how size and strength are not always a barrier:

http://www.streetswing.com/histmai2/gif/1acrob1.gif

I've been at one of Adam's workshops where a man did a superwoman with a partner weighing maybe 14-15 stone. [I'm not saying it was elegant - but she did get up there!]


However for the more extreme aerials, as performed by David and Lily, weight is likely to be a significant factor even with correct technique. There's no doubt being strong and having a light partner helps a lot, especially when learning the moves. It also gives you more options for entry, exit, transitions and dramatic effect. In the ballet example, suppose the director wanted the man to slowly press the woman overhead, you really need a strong man and a light partner - no amount of technique is going to help that situation very much.

On the other hand, one of the former world champion couples (Tommye Giacchino and Gregory Day) are quite a way from the stereotype of huge man and tiny woman - they clearly don't have the strength margin some of the other couples do, but they are very good at what they do.

Dave

Chris
27th-November-2003, 03:41 PM
I was at a (rotating) baby aerials fun class with some friends earlier in the year and was pleased that I was (I think) the only guy who got a particular lady into the air - she seemed a bit embarrassed (she was a bit on the chunky side :blush: ) so I hoped it helped her confidence. But I found it helped me too as I'm not very strong and it made me concentrate more on technique, aligning her centre of gravity and stuff. When I used to do Andy and Rena's classes I was impressed that he's not an enormous guy. Obviously strength and lightness play a great part, and presses will be more difficult if the follower's chunky, but a lot of people use strength to cover up flaws (not you David! you obviously work out a lot - or have - but your graceful aerials with Bryony are a joy to watch.)

Scotch Bonnet
29th-October-2004, 08:48 PM
Jumps and drops can look good when done properly,but most of the time watching guys try this at Ceroc(usually with little tiny gals!!)it's because they don't have enough real moves and are not the best dancers..........I've been hurt a few times by these 'macho'men ......

RogerR
30th-October-2004, 10:29 AM
It takes a lot to be good at aerials. The Leader has to limit the moves to those that can be lead in the space and time available. this demands a lot of experiment time in a studio to learn how to lead a partner into through and out of the move safely.

Little Monkey
30th-October-2004, 12:28 PM
I looooove drops, dips, jumps etc.... And I'm definitely ever so slightly over 8 stone..... :blush:

There are some guys I dance with who manage to make me feel like I weigh next to nothing, which is great! :D But there are also too many guys out there who do these moves without knowing how to do them right, or do them too often, and without checking that there's plenty of room on the floor to ensure the safety of their partner and other dancers. I have landed head first on the floor a couple of times, and also had my back twisted badly, which is NOT NICE! :angry:

So, I DO like these moves if:

The guy knows how to do them right

There's LOADS of room on the dance floor

The guy knows (= bothers to find out) that his partner is happy about doing the move

I won't snap him in two when he attempts to lift / drop me.... :blush:

And obviously, being a size.... Bigger than 8 :whistle: , there's a limit to what moves I can do without killing my poor partner.... But a lot of fun can still be had! :clap:

(Not So) Little Miss Monkey

TheTramp
30th-October-2004, 01:09 PM
I looooove drops, dips, jumps etc.... And I'm definitely ever so slightly over 8 stone..... :blush:

You are?? Doesn't look like it....

Trampy

Piglet
30th-October-2004, 05:13 PM
So far I enjoy all of those moves - but I'm still pretty much a novice and trying my best to remember the signals for some of them.

Need much more practice but its a pure delight when in the hands of someone very experienced because you find you end up in the right place without trying hard at all.

Great fun!

Guess the ideal would be to have a designated dancing partner to practise them with - will have to try harder to bribe my boyfriend to try ceroc.

Little Monkey
30th-October-2004, 05:55 PM
You are?? Doesn't look like it....

Trampy

Cheeky.... :wink:

Miss Monkey :hug:

PretzelMeister
31st-October-2004, 05:08 PM
~SNIP~The easiest way to impress most non-dancers is by doing something flashy. But the only way to really impress a dancer is by dancing well, and that is hard. Lifts and drops are simple in comparison.
David
Having a read through this thread, this comment is by no means the only one that gives the impression that many people out there hold the view that dips, drops and aerials, etc are only done by couples in general, and more probably blokes in particular, for the purposes of being 'flashy' or 'impressing other dancers', etc.

Direct quote from above:
"...the only way to really impress a dancer is by dancing well, and that is hard. Lifts and drops are simple in comparison."

Despite not being a good dancer, nor knowing many lifts or drops - and certainly none 100% - I agree with the statement entirely. However, there is an implicit acknowledgement in the statement that lifts and drops are ceroc moves. Therefore, is is not entirely plausible that some dancers may just possibly like to do some lifts and drops because they actually LIKE the feel of the move and enjoy doing it because THEY like it - not because they're trying to impress anyone else? And provided they're doing it safely - both for the benefit of themselves and anyone else who may be sharing the dancefloor with them - then why not?

I have never done any aerials. There are only a couple of drops/lifts that I would even attempt (Salsa Drop Stepover, 1st Move Columbian With Lunge Finish - both courtesy of Trampy's BFG Sunday workshop - thanks Trampy!, and a couple of others) - and these only with partners I know well, dance with often, have practiced the move with and more often than not who have also been taught the move by an experienced teacher - and only then with their express consent.

When I do the moves, I'm not doing them for the benefit of anyone else other my partner & I. And WE enjoy doing them.

- Is there still space for this in ceroc?

Gus
31st-October-2004, 06:53 PM
There are only a couple of drops/lifts that I would even attempt (Salsa Drop Stepover, 1st Move Columbian With Lunge Finish ...... Is there still space for this in ceroc? The question is ... is there room on the dancefloor?
Like a number of venues we've simplified the question. Airsteps are banned! .... if you want to do them .... do them at someone elses venue where they dont care if you knock someones block off :mad:

LilyB
31st-October-2004, 07:29 PM
So far I enjoy all of those moves - but I'm still pretty much a novice and trying my best to remember the signals for some of them. ....

I hope you are referring only to drops. Your partner should NOT be leading jumps (or any acrobatic/aerial move) by signals - PERIOD. That, unfortunately, does not stop certain teachers from teaching jumps/aerials by way of signals as a lead. It is still WRONG. Too many people have been injured and/or aggrieved by their partners (or other people) doing just that. So many different teachers from different organisations purport to teach acrobatic moves that it is impossible for there to be standard signals which are recognised by everybody. The same applies to normal dancing but the huge difference is that if both partners mistake a signal, the consequences with regard to the acrobatic move is that someone may get hurt (badly!) whereas in normal dancing that is of little consequence. Please do not wait until you or your partner (or someone else) gets injured before refraining from doing jumps that are led by signals.

LilyB

David Franklin
31st-October-2004, 07:43 PM
I hope you are referring only to drops. Your partner should NOT be leading jumps (or any acrobatic/aerial move) by signals - PERIOD. :yeah: Even in competitions, we verbal every lift (except the 1st one, if we've decided "we will start with X" before hand). Might not be the most stylish option, but it's even harder to look stylish in hospital.

Whatever you do, agree it with your partner beforehand; even verbal leads can have their problems - for example, Andy/Rena teach an aerial they call a "half-windmill"...

[As well as other verbal pitfalls, such as the way Lily described a lean @ Hipsters on Tuesday. :whistle: ]

Dave

MartinHarper
1st-November-2004, 10:42 AM
So many different teachers from different organisations purport to teach acrobatic moves that it is impossible for there to be standard signals which are recognised by everybody.

Seems to me that it would be entirely possible to have standard signals, provided that the different organisations worked together to decide on a standard. While they're at it, perhaps they could also decide on some standard names for moves as well?

David Franklin
1st-November-2004, 11:18 AM
Seems to me that it would be entirely possible to have standard signals, provided that the different organisations worked together to decide on a standard. While they're at it, perhaps they could also decide on some standard names for moves as well?Lots of things are "possible" in an absolute sense; but in practice, it just ain't gonna happen. Every lifts teacher I know uses different terms for most of the moves, often for the most ideosyncratic reasons. We call one of our lifts the "wheel", because it's a bit like a harder move we couldn't do that the teacher called the "wheel". Now we can do the harder version, we have to call it the "big wheel" (we should maybe call it the wagon wheel, but Bryony says mentioning chocolate when she has to be lifted isn't fair...)

In real terms the only "universal" signals are leads that don't require the other person to know the move - not terribly transferable to aerials...

I think all this misses the main point anyhow - you should not do these moves with someone you haven't practiced with, so why would you need a universally recognized signal?

There is another very sensible reason for "non-universal" signals. There are literally thousands of lifts - but very few people do more than say 10 favourites. It is much more reliable to work out a simple set of leads (verbal, signals or otherwise) that only try to distinguish those 10 moves than to have to distinguish between thousands of possiblities. You want as much redundancy as possible - because the consequences of misinterpreting what was intended can be catastrophic.

Dave

Gus
1st-November-2004, 11:27 AM
Seems to me that it would be entirely possible to have standard signals, provided that the different organisations worked together to decide on a standard. While they're at it, perhaps they could also decide on some standard names for moves as well?I'm afraid that wont happen in this lifetime ... we can't decide what the dance is called for starters (LeRoc, CeRoc, French Jive, Modern Jive etc)! AND ... most of the lifts seem to have originated from outside MJ, e.g. Lindy and RnR.

Regretably, I cant see the dance organisations working together on anything .... we cant even agree enough to form an independant MJ dance organisation to as a counterbalance to the Ceroc Galactic Empire ..... anyone fancy setting up the "Federation of Non-Aligned MJ Clubs" ? :whistle:

David Franklin
1st-November-2004, 11:37 AM
Regretably, I cant see the dance organisations working together on anything .... we cant even agree enough to form an independant MJ dance organisation to as a counterbalance to the Ceroc Galactic Empire ..... anyone fancy setting up the "Federation of Non-Aligned MJ Clubs" ? I think you misspelled "Rebel Alliance" there Gus. Sounds like a great idea for a cabaret (http://www.demaci.com/site/video/SW-Small-wmv.wmv)...

Dave

Bill
1st-November-2004, 02:18 PM
So, I DO like these moves if:

The guy knows how to do them right

There's LOADS of room on the dance floor

The guy knows (= bothers to find out) that his partner is happy about doing the move

I won't snap him in two when he attempts to lift / drop me.... :blush:

And obviously, being a size.... Bigger than 8 :whistle: , there's a limit to what moves I can do without killing my poor partner.... But a lot of fun can still be had! :clap:

(Not So) Little Miss Monkey


and these are exactly the safety points that Ceroc teachers make prior to even some seducers. We don't do many drops up here but Lorna and Lisa constantly do the 'safety' speech so even more important to ask before putting a woman into a big drop, seducer or lift.

Our Thursday venue is pretty small and it would be stupid and very very dangerous to try any lifts or aerials there. It's bad enough some evenings with some dancers taking up a huge amount of space dancing in huge circles.

Isn't less more :whistle: :wink:

Lounge Lizard
1st-November-2004, 03:08 PM
Seems to me that it would be entirely possible to have standard signals, provided that the different organisations worked together to decide on a standard. While they're at it, perhaps they could also decide on some standard names for moves as well?Sorry IMHO no way should signals be used or standard throughout MJ
My approach is - if you cant lead the move dont do it - if it is choreographed - tell your partner the name of the move or have a signal that works for you pertsonaly

Universal names - I have made up loads of moves some with names some without, even the one's with names that I gave them I cant rember what I called them
find a move you like learn it (preferably in a workshop) lead it in a safe way for you your partner and your fellow dancers, then you wont need signals.

It is bad enough certain ladies throwing themselves into drops (not sure if they can throw themselves into an aerial :rofl: ) let alone having a signal for every move......imagine the senario I scratch my head and the lady immediatly drops expecting me to catch her :what:
LL

ChrisA
1st-November-2004, 03:54 PM
I think all this misses the main point anyhow - you should not do these moves with someone you haven't practiced with, so why would you need a universally recognized signal?

..... :yeah:

And for non-aerial moves, worrying about signals and names (except for the purposes of cataloguing them) is a distraction from learning to lead them.

Chris

MartinHarper
1st-November-2004, 04:42 PM
why would you need a universally recognized signal (for a jump or drop)?

Personally? So I can learn it and avoid giving it. Similarly for standard names. I'm a little disturbed to find that "half windmill" is simultaneously the name for a simple beginner move and an aerial.
If you advanced types feel that signals should definately not be used for jumps, drops, etc, perhaps you could standardise on that?

ChrisA
1st-November-2004, 04:58 PM
I'm a little disturbed to find that "half windmill" is simultaneously the name for a simple beginner move and an aerial.

But why is this disturbing?

The beginner move is leadable, and safe if led well. The aerial one shouldn't be done at all with anyone except a regular aerials partner, with whom an appropriate set of names can be worked out.

Even if both are to be danced in the same track, there is still no possibility of confusion, since the beginners move called the half-windmill needs no verbal announcement.

Chris

Gus
1st-November-2004, 05:06 PM
If you advanced types feel that signals should definitely not be used for jumps, drops, etc, perhaps you could standardise on that?Martin, think you are missing the point ... WHO is going to lay down standard terms?? There is no single standards body ... even the biggest, Ceroc, only covers about 30% (wild guess) of the MJ dancers in the UK ... so how can you standardise? Every time I 'made up' a move would I have to submit for official sanction and have a name allocated and catalogued? (Nice idea though :wink: )

Lounge Lizard
1st-November-2004, 05:07 PM
If you advanced types feel that signals should definately not be used for jumps, drops, etc, perhaps you could standardise on that?not really - I teach what I develop either from my imagination, inspiration from other moves/styles or copied from other dancers. the name I give relates to that move, but others may also be teaching something simmilar, I do not get to every MJ venue in the uk so do not know all moves being taught.

there is no universal meeting of uk teachers to share and standardise moves, teaching format, names etc.

If I teach a move at a weekender another teacher may well use the idea, perhaps immprove on the move, give it a different name and then teach it atr their venue.

Personaly I would advise you put less emphasis on the name and more on technique and execution of any move.

Your reference to half windmil - the name is usefull when teaching but b*gger all use when leading it on a social dance floor IMHO....unless you intend to instruct your partner with the name of every move you are going to lead!
LL

LilyB
1st-November-2004, 05:20 PM
.... If you advanced types feel that signals should definately not be used for jumps, drops, etc, perhaps you could standardise on that?

Perhaps you misunderstand your own words. If those 'advanced types' feel that signals should definitely not be used for jumps,... etc, why on earth would they/we want to standardise on that? :confused: :confused: :confused:

In fact, if requested, I would most definitely refuse as I fear that any attempt to 'standardise' signals for acrobatic moves will be seen by some as a sign of approval for doing them. :sad:

LilyB

David Franklin
1st-November-2004, 05:23 PM
If I teach a move at a weekender another teacher may well use the idea, perhaps immprove on the move, give it a different name and then teach it atr their venue.But for exactly this reason, it does make sense to deprecate the use of names or signals as a way to lead a lift or drop in freestyle - preferably by explaining that there are no standard names or signals. So I'm hoping everyone is misreading what MartinHarper said, and what he means is "can't everyone standardize on NO SIGNALS for lifts and drops?".

To be honest, the bigger companies tend to be the worst offenders here - because they tend not to acknowledge the existance of other organizations, they assume they can define a signal across the organisation and there will be no problems. Hence the "tap RH on R-shoulder" signal - which seems to have about 4 different associated airsteps (as well as the "I've got a chip on my shoulder" meaning...)

Dave

MartinHarper
1st-November-2004, 05:44 PM
what he means is "can't everyone standardize on NO SIGNALS for lifts and drops?"

Well, yeah that! Sorry for being unclear.


Regretably, I cant see the dance organisations working together on anything

Point taken. I guess I just had the idea that, given that this is a safety issue, there might be a greater than average level of communication. :(

Zebra Woman
1st-November-2004, 05:44 PM
I love dips and drops if the floor isn't too crowded. If it's someone I don't know I like to be asked at the start of the dance, and I'll give a resounding 'Yes please!' if they look trustworthy and I have warmed up. I don't really like any 'verbal' during a dance so it's either leadable or not. Although if there's something I've done wrong, I do like a little tip and a second chance.

As a lead I don't do dips as I've had a few women launch themselves at the floor and I'm not strong enough to deal with that - who is??

Lifts I'm not so keen on.
I've had two star jump accidents. The first one, some thumbs were pressed so hard into my kidneys that I got a kidney infection.The second accident..... My first dance on my first ever weekend away....I was lifted into a star jump, very very high.....and then left to plummet :eek: I sprained my ankle on landing and it ruined my whole weekend :tears: :tears: :tears:

Amazingly I still do star jumps, but if I don't fancy it I can do a very good impression of a sturdy oak tree and I say 'No!' quite loudly too.

I like laybacks too, but I like to go back at my own pace. I was hurt once when a man shoved my shoulder backwards too hard.

Sounds like a catalogue of accidents, but I have to say the dips and drops are worth it cos I can protect myself by keeping my weight. My worst fear is being led roughly... jerky leads , gripping with thumbs, being forced into double spins by a vigorous stir of the hand :angry:

Hey LL! I throw myself into an aerial (albeit a single handed mini one). During Jump For Your Love, I like to jump :blush:

Lately at Hammersmith and a couple of other venues, dancing has become quite hazardous so I would maybe say no to dips for the whole night there :(

Gus
1st-November-2004, 06:01 PM
I love dips and drops if the floor isn't too crowded. If it's someone I don't know I like to be asked at the start of the dance, and I'll give a resounding 'Yes please!' if they look trustworthy and I have warmed up. WARMED UP ... now theres a phrase you dont hear too much on the dance circuit! It does make me wonder some times ... some of the moves dancers put themselves through (lifts, deep drops, lunges, laybacks) ... but they never consider if they are in the right physical state to do such moves (never mind asking if their partner is up to it). If you think what state of fitness and flexibility you had to be in in your sports days ... and look at your body now in comparison. I'd bet that most MJ dancers are not in top condition but they still do some physically demanding moves ... ESPECIALY without correctly warming up. Just surprises me that there aren't more accidents and self inflicted injuries :sad:

David Franklin
1st-November-2004, 06:03 PM
My first dance on my first ever weekend away....I was lifted into a star jump, very very high.....and then left to plummet :eek: I sprained my ankle on landing and it ruined my whole weekend :tears: :tears: :tears:Unfortunately, getting someone into the air is much easier than getting them back gently to the ground. Dance weekends are a bit miserable if you can't dance...


I like laybacks too, but I like to go back at my own pace. I was hurt once when a man shoved my shoulder backwards too hard.If you ask me, this belongs in the same category as the pervs... It's not even bad technique or carelessness - it's actively trying to force the woman to do something they know she doesn't want to! :angry:


Sounds like a catalogue of accidents, but I have to say the dips and drops are worth it cos I can protect myself by keeping my weight. My worst fear is being led roughly... jerky leads , gripping with thumbs, being forced into double spins by a vigorous stir of the hand :angry: After 3 years of aerials, the worst accident my wife has had was when I caught her with an elbow when spinning! :eek:

Dave

ChrisA
1st-November-2004, 06:20 PM
If you ask me, this belongs in the same category as the pervs... It's not even bad technique or carelessness - it's actively trying to force the woman to do something they know she doesn't want to! :angry:

....... :yeah:

It's just another form of abuse, for any category of which there should be zero-tolerance.

Chris

ChrisA
1st-November-2004, 06:29 PM
Point taken. I guess I just had the idea that, given that this is a safety issue, there might be a greater than average level of communication. :(

Still cloud cuckoo land, with respect. :flower:

No matter how much the organisations worked together, and attempted to get the message across, there would still be all kinds of misunderstanding.

Which would lead to injuries - girls throwing themselves into moves because they thought they saw a signal, and guys forcing girls into them because they assumed their signal was seen and understood.

But as has now been said several times, this is all missing the point - a move is either leadable without signals, or it should not be danced on the social dancefloor.

Effort is much better spent working on improving lead and follow skills, than remembering the names of moves. Who cares what it's called providing you can remember it? And maybe "wibble" is easier to remember in any case than some multi-word concatenation of modifications of several other moves' names.

Chris

Graham
1st-November-2004, 06:55 PM
Effort is much better spent working on improving lead and follow skills, than remembering the names of moves. Who cares what it's called providing you can remember it?
:yeah:
Completely agree. The names are there purely for ease of looking them up in the moves book. Which of course means there's no advantage to anyone in having an agreement on names between organisations using different moves books.

drathzel
1st-November-2004, 07:40 PM
I like doing drops etc... but only with someone i feel comfortable enough to do them with, ie someone i trust not to hurt me! I think when done right they can look and feel good. I do however enjoy a dance without them too!
:hug:

Zebra Woman
1st-November-2004, 09:21 PM
I do however enjoy a dance without them too!
:hug:
:yeah: Absolutely, some of my favourite partners don't do any dips at all.

When I said 'warmed up' I meant 40 minutes of freestyle, not sporty stretching exercises. I do stretch occasionally, but so many people have asked me if I'm injured (i'm trying not to get injured) :sick: I now try to do it in private.

Agree with Chris A that time is best spent learning to lead and follow carefully rather than fancy names and quaint signals. Any words/odd signals just completely burst my bubble anyway.

Not that I know much but....For dip following:
When I'm in a position about to be dipped I like to pause for a fraction of a second and look at the man with all my weight on my bent right leg, and my left leg straight along the floor. At that point I feel his lead, and can be led into a dip of just 2 degrees or all the way onto the floor, his choice. Although I will curtail the descent myself if my leg is tired :blush: . After all there is only so much my right thigh can take :eek: :eek:

Hence the stretches :sick:

MartinHarper
2nd-November-2004, 12:20 AM
No matter how much the organisations worked together, [...] there would still be all kinds of misunderstanding.

For example, my posts to this board will continue to be misunderstood. I've taken it to PM. Anyone else who's confused, please re-read posts #92 and #97. The wider points about names and signals belongs on another thread, so I'll drop them for now.


6 DO Make sure your partner hears & understands your verbal signals

Given comments on this thread, I wonder if this is perhaps a little misleading with respect to the pros and cons of verbal signals. Perhaps instead, something along the lines of:

DON'T use verbal signals or hand signals, unless you have individually pre-arranged them with your partner. There are no standard names or signals for moves.
DON'T lead drops that require verbal signals or hand signals, except with a regular dance partner.
DO, if you are using a pre-arranged verbal signal with a regular dance partner, make sure they hear & understand it.

Whitebeard
2nd-November-2004, 01:47 AM
Just what separates a 'signal' from the 'lead'.

Even with beginners' moves the odd signal is taught - for instance the right arm extended out above waist height on the step back for the man turn. More are taught in the intermediate moves. But I suspect that many signals are given and received as part of the 'lead' - some very subtle, some more obvious.

One obvious one is in the lead in to the first move where I am aware that my right arm also moves out to the side and the hand cups, sort of inviting the lady to occupy this space. I'm sure ladies consciously, or subconsciously note this, and smoothly and without hesitation float into the side by side position. So, surely, this is a signal, but one which comes so naturally that it doesn't need teaching.

Others are more more subtle, and I still haven't really worked out just how the lady knows that I'm leading a hatchback rather than the half windmill which has been mentioned on this thread.

Gadget
2nd-November-2004, 10:00 AM
Just what separates a 'Signal' from a 'lead'?

Even with beginners' moves the odd signal is taught - for instance the right arm extended out above waist height on the step back for the man turn. More are taught in the intermediate moves. But I suspect that many signals are given and received as part of the 'lead' - some very subtle, some more obvious.
This raising of the arm is not a 'true' signal: it's prodominantly a method of avoiding getting your arm trapped. Teaching it as a "signal" raises the awareness of the lady that something is going to happen; she knows to look out for similar hand actions.


One obvious one is in the lead in to the first move where I am aware that my right arm also moves out to the side and the hand cups, sort of inviting the lady to occupy this space.
Again, this is preperation for the next part of the move; the lady uses this fore-warning as a signal. Signals are to give them a hint as to what is going to happen next so that they can prepare themselves. If they are led well, then they should not need this preperation.

"Signals" are visual clues that the lady picks up on to allow her to anticipate the next part of the dance. If the man is aware of the signals he is giving, then he can use them to dance without contact (air dancing).

"Leads" are physical motions that can be performed without the lady actually seeing what the man is doing. This is the primary form of communication because it can be made a very clear language with little room for missunderstanding. To dance without signals is closing your eyes and dancing (blind dancing)

However if the signals tell the lady one thing and the lead tells them another, the lady gets confused - especially if the are used to some anticipation.


Others are more more subtle, and I still haven't really worked out just how the lady knows that I'm leading a hatchback rather than the half windmill which has been mentioned on this thread.
Your hand takes a completley different path through the air and they have different starting points - do them really slowly and you will see.

Zuhal
2nd-November-2004, 01:42 PM
As a lead I don't do dips as I've had a few women launch themselves at the floor and I'm not strong enough to deal with that - who is??

:(
:yeah:

I watched a lovely lady leading another through a beautiful routine which culminated in a low drop that was beyond the strength of either of them to maintain or recover from.

As the rest of it was so good the finale just needed some soap suds to make it a perfectly fulfilling experience. :)

Zuhal

Zebra Woman
2nd-November-2004, 02:00 PM
:yeah:

I watched a lovely lady leading another through a beautiful routine which culminated in a low drop that was beyond the strength of either of them to maintain or recover from.

As the rest of it was so good the finale just needed some soap suds to make it a perfectly fulfilling experience. :)

Zuhal
:rofl:
Yeah, I have dipped the lady and been dragged down with her. No soap suds luckily.

Prefer to roll in the mud myself

...being a Zebra :wink:

Rougeforever
2nd-November-2004, 02:01 PM
At Glee Club Birmingham last night there was a lean and a seducer in the intermediate class.

I'm one of those girls who dreads them, probably mostly because of my dimensions (and the dimensions of some of the men I dance with). Yes, I know that 'good' dancers can lean or seduce a lady of any size and shape safely, but the truth is that in the intermediate classes that I go to, not every man is a 'good' dancer, and in some cases they have trouble leading the beginner moves.

My main problem comes when not enough attention is paid to giving the lady hints and tips on making the leans safer. Sure, a lot of it is up to the leans, but a lady can help by
1) making sure she is in close if she knows a lean is in the air
2) asking her partner only to do a little one (!) if she's not confident
3) saying 'no drops or leans !' loudly if she doesn't want to go there.

... and I know there are a few variations a lady can do if she doesn't want to be leaned, and there are tricks on where to bear the weight (etc) too.

As a beginner I need this sort of information. I personally think that ceroc teachers have a responsibility to us to give us all as much info as possible when attempting these moves. I was nearly dropped last night (out of a seducer, nasty !) If I had had a bit more information I would probably have been in a better position to 'defend' myself !

Was it a good idea to have a lean and a seducer in the same intermediate class ? Maybe at some venues most of the dancers would have coped, but at the Glee Club, which seems to have a relatively high number of only-just-in-intermediate-class dancers, maybe it's not a good idea.

So, in summary (and I know some ceroc teachers do this - I've seen it for myself)
Ceroc teachers:
Please give as much info to followers as you can when teaching these moves
Please remember to teach alternatives
Please remember to teach that it's ok to say 'no' !
Consider your class - are they the type that can cope with a couple of challenging moves in one lesson ?

Thoughts ? Feedback ? Flames ? :flower:

Gus
2nd-November-2004, 02:17 PM
At Glee Club Birmingham last night there was a lean and a seducer in the intermediate class.

Maybe at some venues most of the dancers would have coped, but at the Glee Club, which seems to have a relatively high number of only-just-in-intermediate-class dancers, maybe it's not a good idea.
Personal view (and it USED to be Ceroc Policy) ... you DONT teach seducers in a class! Despite all the warnings given , there is always a sizable group who will do it wrong. Any teacher worth their salts knows this .... so why do teachers STILL teach full seducers from stage? :confused: Maybe we have to wait until someone sues them before they see sense.

Commis Chef
3rd-March-2005, 08:46 PM
:yeah: Absolutely, some of my favourite partners don't do any dips at all.



I agree. I do not understand why some people think that doing seducers makes them good dancers or that women believe it makes a man a good dancing lead . :confused:

Dips or seducers performed badly or inappropriatly just stop the flow of a dance and can look ridiculous.

Well practiced, well timed and well placed can be dramatic in an expressive dance or romantic in blues but some pieces of music are just not right for them.

drathzel
3rd-March-2005, 08:51 PM
Personal view (and it USED to be Ceroc Policy) ... you DONT teach seducers in a class! Despite all the warnings given , there is always a sizable group who will do it wrong. Any teacher worth their salts knows this .... so why do teachers STILL teach full seducers from stage? :confused: Maybe we have to wait until someone sues them before they see sense.


I have just read this post and feel that after some experience that this is completely and utterly true, they should leave drops and dips to workshops IMHO!

KazMK
4th-March-2005, 12:17 PM
Hello All,

Not been on the Forum for a while but was interested in the Drops/Lifts etc!
Yes i have to say the "neither man nor woman" also cracked me up.

I would like to learn how to do the drops/lifts properly. Its knowing where to put your hands or what to hold onto! Yes i can hear you all laughing away and no doubt there are some smutty comments being thought right now! Its not the first time I have elbowed some poor guy in the nuts!!! Its true though. Its all very well doing the drops/lifts but if you dont hold on properly then it can end up in disaster. Personally if i am not in a heap on the floor at the end of a drop/lift, I consider that as a Bonus!!!!

So perhaps some kind sole could give me a little guidance at the Monday class in Dundee as that's where I dance.

Yours Hopefully

KazMK
xx

bigdjiver
4th-March-2005, 09:32 PM
... i have to say the "neither man nor woman" also cracked me up...
...Its not the first time I have elbowed some poor guy in the nuts!!! Actually, I am now veering towards the "Nay"

drathzel
5th-March-2005, 11:37 PM
Actually, I am now veering towards the "Nay"

I think many men are following your lead now :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

David Bailey
16th-March-2005, 09:07 AM
I think many men are following your lead now :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Yep, that's confirmed my nay vote :)
I think drops and lifts should only be done between regular partners, or as part of a routine for an exhibition / competition. They're just too dangerous (even ignoring the "nuts factor" :tears: ) - I regularly wince when I see some people do them, thinking, "yep, his back's going to need some serious physio real soon now".
The only "drop" move I ever do now is where we basically both bend our knees, bodies together, then both come up again (obviously, quite UCP and not something to do with a beginner!) - so there's no weight support required.

JoC
12th-April-2005, 05:48 PM
I would like to learn how to do the drops/lifts properly. Its knowing where to put your hands or what to hold onto! Its all very well doing the drops/lifts but if you dont hold on properly then it can end up in disaster. Personally if i am not in a heap on the floor at the end of a drop/lift, I consider that as a Bonus!!!!


Hi KazMK, don't know how things have gone for you since you posted this, but I think I recognise this call of distress!

The quest for some sort of survival guide to dips and drops...? Because despite all the rules of etiquette and common sense that say you will be consulted before a dip/drop, and that it's best to practise dips/drops with a regular partner etc... we followers still get dipped and dropped by new partners who haven't a clue whether we'd like to, or whether we are able, and it would be good to finish in one piece and injury free and with a little dignity intact...

Before I say anything, let me get my disclaimer in that these are the views of a relative beginner, not those of a qualified dance instructor!!!

That said, two things I found useful that you might too...

1. Someone earlier on (in this thread I think) mentioned the general rules of: (and please correct me people if I get this wrong!)
You bend the leg nearest the lead taking most of your own weight on that leg.
Keep a straight body line from your straight leg (furthest from the lead) to your head and don't drop your head back (extra weight).

2. Going to a Dips and Drops workshop! I don't think there's going to be any substitute for this unless you're getting one to one tuiton from someone with the appropriate experience. I went on the recent one in Aberdeen and feel much more confident now, but still just with the right partners. And you'll get all the advice you need about where to hold onto...

Another rule for starting out seems to be keep both feet on the ground, again to reduce the weight (and so hopefully reduce the chances of ending in a heap...)

Of course as with most things in life, once you've learned a certain amount, you dispense with the rules... in the meantime good luck with your survival and may the floor never find you. :D

Russell Saxby
13th-April-2005, 01:37 PM
Personal view (and it USED to be Ceroc Policy) ... you DONT teach seducers in a class! Despite all the warnings given , there is always a sizable group who will do it wrong. Any teacher worth their salts knows this .... so why do teachers STILL teach full seducers from stage? :confused: Maybe we have to wait until someone sues them before they see sense.


I do teach drops and seducers from stage on occasions, but not as often as some people would like (i often get moaned at for not teaching enough) When I do I take it very slow, and really try and break it down, especially about the lady maintaining her weight and balance. It does not matter how many times you tell the ladies to keep feet on the floor - there will always be one or two with one foot pointed to the ceiling. :angry:

One point of view is that if you do not teach them some guys will just try them out on unsuspecting ladies anyway. I guess, if they are taught from stage you can at least emphasise:-

- asking the lady first.
- being considerate on a crowded floor
- sometimes less is more. (i.e. the further you go down, the further you have to come back up)

I have to say a good majority of dancers I watch doing seducers etc during freestyle appear to be doing them for the sake of it, and not dancing to the music :whistle:

Russell

TheTramp
13th-April-2005, 01:58 PM
It does not matter how many times you tell the ladies to keep feet on the floor - there will always be one or two with one foot pointed to the ceiling. :angry:
Heh. Always....

I wonder if it'd be fair game to announce: "Right. One more time, and if I see any ladies who raise their legs, then I'll come off the stage, and the next time, I'll do the move with them in the class".... :devil:

Mary
13th-April-2005, 04:08 PM
Just thought I'd like to mention that I have had more and worse injuries on the social dance floor that don't involve any kind of lift, drop or seducer from either poor floorcraft or a man's elbow when he's done a spin (and I have, on occasion smacked the odd guy as well! - poor following or bad leading?). Like most things this was down to poor technique. I have had some guys lead me into drops/seducers with shocking technique, but not received strains or injury. Even been dropped straight onto the floor in a class and the guy falling on top of me did not produce an injury. Not saying this is OK but trying to get a sense of proportion.

I am a 5'2" midget and can lead a man safely into a lean (well I think so anyway, but I am built like a brick sh*t house! - no, only kidding)

For regular social dancing signals should not be necessary. At the risk of sounding snobbish it's a cheat's way of leading (stands back ready for a flaming!). A certain eminent member of this forum assisted me greatly one evening when my following was absolute pants. He got me to close my eyes for whole track, and he was still able to lead some fairly complex moves. After which, when I opened my eyes again I was able to follow competantly again and was far more relaxed. An excercise which I feel is invaluable at every level.

M

JoC
13th-April-2005, 04:37 PM
I am a 5'2" midget and can lead a man safely into a lean

Hey you're a TALL lady then in my book (from one who is less than 5'2" :D ). I wasn't going to ask but heck, how big a man can you handle? (No smutty remarks please that is a VERY serious question!)

Mary
13th-April-2005, 04:48 PM
Hey you're a TALL lady then in my book (from one who is less than 5'2" :D ). I wasn't going to ask but heck, how big a man can you handle? (No smutty remarks please that is a VERY serious question!)

:D :D

I don't get the nickname Scary Mary for nothing y'know! :wink:

M

David Bailey
13th-April-2005, 06:00 PM
Just thought I'd like to mention that I have had more and worse injuries on the social dance floor that don't involve any kind of lift, drop or seducer from either poor floorcraft or a man's elbow when he's done a spin
:yeah: The most common injuries I've encountered are the elbow-to-the-nose kind; I've both received and ( :blush: ) inflicted those I'm afraid.

I don't get/give so much of the stepping-on-foot kind of injury, I think I've finally learnt to pay attention to where the other couples around me are dancing and moving.

The only thing I'd say about drops is, with the best will in the world, you've got to have the right height / weight ratio to your partner, otherwise you do risk back injury. I'm a titch, so I don't really do those moves, but I've seen guys even smaller than me do incredibly dangerous drops and lifts. It's not a question of strength, it's about momentum; and once your back goes, it's gone for good baby. This has been a public information broadcast on behalf of ... etc.

Mary
13th-April-2005, 06:24 PM
It's not a question of strength, it's about momentum; and once your back goes, it's gone for good baby. This has been a public information broadcast on behalf of ... etc.

I agree. So maybe it's better to teach these moves and pay particular attention to good technique - to ladies as well as men, as this is one of those areas where the lady is as much responsible as the men (or should I say followers and leaders). Rather than have ladies who have not been taught properly at the mercy of men who are trying to copy what they have seen!!!!!!

M

David Franklin
13th-April-2005, 06:36 PM
I'm a titch, so I don't really do those moves, but I've seen guys even smaller than me do incredibly dangerous drops and lifts. It's not a question of strength, it's about momentum; and once your back goes, it's gone for good baby.I've certainly seen small guys do drops and lifts with awful technique, but I'd say it's actually far more common amongst bigger guys. As with anything else, "a man's got to know his limitations" - and smaller guys at least tend to do that. And the women who think "I'm tiny - I can throw myself into dips" are at least an equal danger, in my experience.

David Bailey
13th-April-2005, 07:34 PM
I agree. So maybe it's better to teach these moves and pay particular attention to good technique - to ladies as well as men, as this is one of those areas where the lady is as much responsible as the men (or should I say followers and leaders).
I don't know, I really don't. Similar argument is that if other dance organisations do teach them, Ceroc should, as dancers will use those moves anyway, so they should be taught them properly.

On the other hand, you could make that argument about any moves you see on the dancefloor, including UCP moves, aerials, you name it.

So to me, it's just a judgement call, perhaps even judgement on the part of the individual venue manager or teacher, as to whether to teach them. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here.

Ballroom queen
13th-April-2005, 11:25 PM
I agree. So maybe it's better to teach these moves and pay particular attention to good technique - to ladies as well as men, as this is one of those areas where the lady is as much responsible as the men (or should I say followers and leaders). Rather than have ladies who have not been taught properly at the mercy of men who are trying to copy what they have seen!!!!!!

M

Its interesting isn't it - (some) experienced MJvers are happy to learn good, potentially complex technique for lifts drops etc, but don't want to etc etc for ballroom. Now why's that then???

Gus
13th-April-2005, 11:59 PM
I don't know, I really don't. Similar argument is that if other dance organisations do teach them, Ceroc should, as dancers will use those moves anyway, so they should be taught them properly.YOU CAN'T TEACH DROPS PROPERLY FROM STAGE PERIOD!!!

Hey ... I know ... why dont we try to teahc dancers when NOT to do drops (i.e. 99% of the time) instead! ... don't we seem to have this debate every 6 months or so? :( Shame nothing ever comes of it.

MartinHarper
14th-April-2005, 12:24 AM
Let's review the attributes of the typical MJ teacher:

1) Unable or unwilling to teach footwork properly.
2) Unable or unwilling to teach lead/follow properly.
3) Unable or unwilling to teach musicality properly.
...

Seems to me that if we want drops taught properly, then we're really asking that they not be taught by typical MJ teachers.

Gus
14th-April-2005, 11:31 AM
Let's review the attributes of the typical MJ teacher:

1) Unable or unwilling to teach footwork properly.
2) Unable or unwilling to teach lead/follow properly.
3) Unable or unwilling to teach musicality properly.
...

Seems to me that if we want drops taught properly, then we're really asking that they not be taught by typical MJ teachers.Martin ... you are WAAAAAAY off mark. MJ teachers DO teach the above ... only in workshops where you can focus on the dancers! In class we teach moves, ettiquette and FUN! Thats why MJers vastly outnumber Lindy dancers!

David Bailey
14th-April-2005, 11:55 AM
Martin ... you are WAAAAAAY off mark. MJ teachers DO teach the above ... only in workshops where you can focus on the dancers! In class we teach moves, ettiquette and FUN! Thats why MJers vastly outnumber Lindy dancers!

:yeah: I don't think there's much disagreement between you, as long as you add the "in classes" proviso to Martin's comment. I'm such a diplomat...

Also, I've got to ask, how do you teach "FUN"? Coz I'd love to learn that :whistle:

Purple Sparkler
16th-May-2005, 03:05 PM
Just a newbie (to the forum- I've been dancing for about 15 months now) throwing in my twopennorth:

I LOVE drops, seducers, lifts, leans etc- absolutely love them.
But I do agree that you have to be careful- I've been walloped before now by people doing airsteps on a crowded dancefloor- including at the Champs, which really wasn't on as that dancefloor was PACKED. Then again I've also had a partner manage to punch me in the face with my own hand in a perfectly normal move, and have elbowed at least a couple of guys accidentally... I think the safety first rule doesn't only apply to the snazzy moves in Ceroc. Also, for me to be really happy doing a drop, or a lift or whatever, I have to be able to trust the person I'm dancing with- if I'm not sure they won't ACTUALLY drop me, I step back instead of leaning.

David Bailey
16th-May-2005, 06:52 PM
Just a newbie (to the forum- I've been dancing for about 15 months now)
Welcome, from an old hand of, well, 2 months' standing :)
Good points all, as well.

Barry Shnikov
17th-May-2005, 09:36 AM
Personally I think there is no place for lifts or drops in Social dancing. They are just far too dangerous on a normal dance floor.

They are for competitions and shows, or jam circles, or possibly empty dance floors if you are desperate to practice.

At some places in London (eg Hammersmith) you sometimes want to get off the floor before the end of the song, because you can guarantee that every man around you will throw his partner into a long, low drop. There is barely enough room for everyone to stand at the same time, let alone for half the floor to be lying down!

There is nothing seductive about putting your partner in harm's way.

David

On the other hand, some guys may be skillful enough safely to put their partners into a dip in circumstances where you don't feel comfortable about it.

David Bailey
17th-May-2005, 10:37 AM
On the other hand, some guys may be skillful enough safely to put their partners into a dip in circumstances where you don't feel comfortable about it.
Hmmm, well apart from the fact that the group of "guys more skilled than DavidB" is, shall we say, limited (!), this ignores the fact that another leader next to you in a crowded dance floor may decide to dip their partner towards your partner's head at the wrong moment.

As the saying goes, "There's always the other driver"

I don't dip much, but when I do, I generally make a habit of putting my hand on the back of my partner's head for protection (a buffer zone, basically). May look less stylish, but then being conked on the head isn't that stylish either.

Also, just recently realised that this habit means I'm in an ideal position for hair-pulling potential :wink:

KatieR
20th-May-2005, 12:12 PM
I dont know what the general consensus is, but what I have found coming from Australia to the UK, guys tend not to freestyle a lot of drops and dips, seducers etc.. in OZ we tend use quite a few of this category of move in freestyle. I really enjoy the challenge and certainly gives your dancing quite a nice and specky look if thats what you're after.

I was talking with someone on tuesday night and was quite interested to note that the UK version of the lean into a drop was lean, bring the lady back up to standing, then drop slowly.... this move in Australia is done from the lean straight down in a sudden drop.. which in my opinion is a lot more effective and looks a lot sharper.. and you certainly get the 'wow' factor when people are watching.

Im curious to know what everyones thoughts are. :flower:

Piglet
20th-May-2005, 12:35 PM
I was talking with someone on tuesday night and was quite interested to note that the UK version of the lean into a drop was lean, bring the lady back up to standing, then drop slowly.... this move in Australia is done from the lean straight down in a sudden drop.. which in my opinion is a lot more effective and looks a lot sharper.. and you certainly get the 'wow' factor when people are watching.

Hi Katie

Welcome to the forum! :flower:

I love dips and drops providing I have confidence in my partner.

Know of one lean into drop - think its the Tango Lean Drop but Lorna would be able to keep me right (and she's on hols at mo) - don't think I've ever experienced a lean into drop in the way you have mentioned - maybe its down to who your teacher is and their interpretation of the move?

bigdjiver
20th-May-2005, 12:57 PM
I dont know what the general consensus is, but what I have found coming from Australia to the UK, guys tend not to freestyle a lot of drops and dips, seducers etc.. in OZ we tend use quite a few of this category of move in freestyle. I really enjoy the challenge and certainly gives your dancing quite a nice and specky look if thats what you're after.

I was talking with someone on tuesday night and was quite interested to note that the UK version of the lean into a drop was lean, bring the lady back up to standing, then drop slowly.... this move in Australia is done from the lean straight down in a sudden drop.. which in my opinion is a lot more effective and looks a lot sharper.. and you certainly get the 'wow' factor when people are watching.

Im curious to know what everyones thoughts are. :flower:I love the "specky" stuff, but find few ladies that will go for it. I find that there is too much partner swapping to practise these moves, and venues are often too crowded to practise them.
I have used the lean-into-drop as a climactic finish. I would love to do the "slide the lady through the legs, spin her 360 degrees, pull her out" move which I have seen a lot on Oz videos. I have yet to find a partner for it.

KatieR
21st-May-2005, 12:22 PM
I love the "specky" stuff, but find few ladies that will go for it. I find that there is too much partner swapping to practise these moves, and venues are often too crowded to practise them.
I have used the lean-into-drop as a climactic finish. I would love to do the "slide the lady through the legs, spin her 360 degrees, pull her out" move which I have seen a lot on Oz videos. I have yet to find a partner for it.

Obviously as Gus has mentioned in a few of his posts in this thread and I have seen myself that here in the UK there just isn't the floorspace to do these particular moves and I am all for dancing safety.. Ive been walloped a few times by over excited toe tappers.... In OZ we have a lot more space and time in classes to practice and if we dont have a lot of people come to freestyle we often spend the 2 hours practicing drops and aerials and stuff.

I would be more than happy to practice this move with you if we ever cross paths.... I think I have done something similar, but am pretty willing and ready to try new specky moves in a safe environment!

bigdjiver
21st-May-2005, 12:32 PM
Logically most people go to the busiest venues, and few go to the less crowded ones. Having the space to do the more exuberant moves is a matter of being in the right "where" at the right "when". I usually find space late on.

Gus
21st-May-2005, 12:48 PM
I was talking with someone on tuesday night and was quite interested to note that the UK version of the lean into a drop was lean, bring the lady back up to standing, then drop slowly.... this move in Australia is done from the lean straight down in a sudden drop.. which in my opinion is a lot more effective and looks a lot sharper.. and you certainly get the 'wow' factor when people are watching.I think in the UK there are a number of variations round this combo including the one you refer to. The lean/raise/slow drop is great for showing musical interpretation and looks 'nicer'. The quick drop variation is very effective as a punctuation move and is a 'crowd pleaser' but given the low skillset of many people doing drops in the UK its also dangerous. The dynamics of the drop put a strain on most muscle groups in the shoulders, back and neck for both parties. There would seem a fair chance fo whiplash type injury ..... though the BIGGEST crime is that I've rarely seen it done with any regard for the music. {The rant continues :sick: }

KatieR
21st-May-2005, 12:48 PM
Logically most people go to the busiest venues, and few go to the less crowded ones. Having the space to do the more exuberant moves is a matter of being in the right "where" at the right "when". I usually find space late on.

I think also getting together with a small group specifically to practice certain moves to become confident in them and then taking them to the dance floor can also eliminate unwanted UDI's (Unidentified Dancing Injuries)

KatieR
21st-May-2005, 12:59 PM
..... though the BIGGEST crime is that I've rarely seen it done with any regard for the music. {The rant continues :sick: }

Oh how I hear ya!! I get so frustrated when guys just dance around totally missing a lot of really great hits in the music where you could make a great statement (like removing ones top!) or just not getting what the song is about or its feel.

I also like the slow drop variation, if the guy executes the move properly the lady can slightly raise her left leg just above her right and it looks very neat and very smart... It should be a crime to ruin a great song by totally missing the meaning of the song.

The fast drop is great for music with a great beat and is reasonably paced. The astaire lean to death is another good one, not hugely hard but does need to be executed properly for the lady's safety. It is where you go into the lean, the guy almost bounces the lady upright, so the weight is taken off him and he rotates her into like a sitting position and catches her and she brings her leg up. Nice! and we can't forget my old favourite floor clearer... the extended death spiral!! :eek:

foxylady
21st-May-2005, 03:59 PM
........you could make a great statement (like removing ones top!) ...................

What an odd thing for anyone to do............ whilst dancing :wink:

Foxy

Gus
21st-May-2005, 04:32 PM
Oh how I hear ya!! I get so frustrated when guys just dance around totally missing a lot of really great hits in the music where you could make a great statement ([b]like removing ones top![b/]) or just not getting what the song is about or its feel.Why do I get the impression that (male) attendances inncrese at clubs you frequent? :whistle:
The only person I've seen removing their top during a dance was FilthyCute ... and that was during the Blackppol Champs 2 years ago :eek: (Actualy the top she was removing belonged to JiveBrummie .... but it was still a pretty good 'statement move').

Can't think of any other MJers removing their top ....... unless you count last Thursday's Jango social night .... :wink: :eek: :drool: :drool: :wink:

MartinHarper
21st-May-2005, 04:33 PM
This move in Australia is done from the lean straight down in a sudden drop...

I just checked on the DVD: Emma and Alex taught a "Wurlitzer Lean Seducer" at a weekender last year that was done in this style.
I've never seen anyone teach a lean into a drop as part of a regular weekly class, so I'm grateful for small mercies.

Gus
21st-May-2005, 04:50 PM
I've never seen anyone teach a lean into a drop as part of a regular weekly class, so I'm grateful for small mercies.Hey .... visit my only hunting ground, the North West. You can be taught dynamic drops, tango lunges and drags, leans and drops ALL in CLASSES! Think of the fun, 70 or so standard intermediates throwing themsleves (literraly in some cases) into these moves when they can't even do intermediate moves correctly, all taught by instructors with more ego than training or common sense!! :angry: :angry: Best one I saw was a 'senior instructor' teaching a double ladies nelson seducer when he could even do the move properly himself. :(

David Bailey
21st-May-2005, 07:56 PM
Best one I saw was a 'senior instructor' teaching a double ladies nelson seducer when he could even do the move properly himself. :(
Ooh, but he was a senior instructor, you know. None of this "Junior Instructor", or even "Intructor", or, heaven forbid, "teacher" :innocent:

Phew, good thing we've got all these Official Grades For Teaching, huh? It helps no end if you're in the hands of a Senior Instructor. Imagine if we had to make our own judgements about teachers; it'd be chaos. You could even get people saying that some teachers might be cr... Oh, you know the rest.

David, who hopes he'll never be called a Senior Dancer... :eek:

KatieR
22nd-May-2005, 11:38 AM
Why do I get the impression that (male) attendances inncrese at clubs you frequent? :whistle:
The only person I've seen removing their top during a dance was FilthyCute ... and that was during the Blackppol Champs 2 years ago :eek: (Actualy the top she was removing belonged to JiveBrummie .... but it was still a pretty good 'statement move').

Can't think of any other MJers removing their top ....... unless you count last Thursday's Jango social night .... :wink: :eek: :drool: :drool: :wink:

Removing ones top distracts people from ones dance ability (or lack thereof!)

and last Thursday was very tasteful, there was no disrobing of any kind and was all done with high moral standards... (will have to try harder next time! :devil: )

KatieR
22nd-May-2005, 11:52 AM
Hey .... visit my only hunting ground, the North West. You can be taught dynamic drops, tango lunges and drags, leans and drops ALL in CLASSES! Think of the fun, 70 or so standard intermediates throwing themsleves (literraly in some cases) into these moves when they can't even do intermediate moves correctly, all taught by instructors with more ego than training or common sense!! :angry: :angry: Best one I saw was a 'senior instructor' teaching a double ladies nelson seducer when he could even do the move properly himself. :(

I can see that being a problem.... the double ladies nelson seducer is one of my faves, I think we call it something different in OZ tho... if its the one Im thinking of, there are only 1 or 2 people that I trust to do this move with as Im always slightly aware of having my arm snapped if they come out of the turn too fast and with too much momentum. Although when executed well, it can be awesome... Adrian (the instructor at Adelaide) can top turn/spin me 4 or 5 times really fast before going into the half nelson seducer :waycool: .. one thing I have noticed that guys tend to do with moves such as these is come out of the seducer really quick (which is fine) but then not give the lady enough time to find her bearings again and after a lot of spins then a seducer, if the guy then throws the lady straight into another move it looks like you are drunk and feels really awful cos you still haven't regained your sense of direction.. :sick:

this, to me, is quite an important point when you are getting into seducers and double turn seducers or really anything with a seducer in it, if you are in the habit of bring the lady up fast, give her a moment to regain balance and her bearings in the room if you want your dance to look stylish instead of some kind of drunken nightclub scene :eek: .

Gus
22nd-May-2005, 12:22 PM
Ooh, but he was a senior instructor, you know. None of this "Junior Instructor", or even "Intructor", or, heaven forbid, "teacher" :innocent: This was in the Blitz categorisation ... actualy the Chap mentioned is off the scale, for reasons I won't go into here 'cause he's already got a fatwah against me :rolleyes:

Gus
22nd-May-2005, 12:23 PM
and last Thursday was very tasteful, there was no disrobing of any kind and was all done with high moral standards... (will have to try harder next time! :devil: )OH YES THERE WAS!!! And you missed it..... :wink:

David Bailey
22nd-May-2005, 12:36 PM
if you are in the habit of bring the lady up fast
Never - one of the top 10 Deadly Dance Sins in my book is not taking time to savour a seducer - and that means giving serious pause time before, during and after. As anyone who saw me at Ashtons last Friday around 1.15am could attest...

I mean, for goodness sake's, why do people think it's called what it's called? :confused:

David Franklin
22nd-May-2005, 12:43 PM
Can't think of any other MJers removing their top ...Ask Bryony about doing the donut on NYE...

KatieR
24th-May-2005, 09:43 AM
OH YES THERE WAS!!! And you missed it..... :wink:

Darn... I miss everything.... :sad:

Purple Sparkler
24th-May-2005, 11:07 AM
the double ladies nelson seducer is one of my faves

*makes note to ask the Aussies at ISH to show this move to her tonight...

And also: I WANT TO GO TO THE DISROBING CEROC NIGHT!

Perhaps they could make the Ashtons beach party a nudist one after 11pm? :devil:

KatieR
25th-May-2005, 02:29 PM
*makes note to ask the Aussies at ISH to show this move to her tonight...

And also: I WANT TO GO TO THE DISROBING CEROC NIGHT!

Perhaps they could make the Ashtons beach party a nudist one after 11pm? :devil:

Didnt make it to ISH last night... was on late shift... :( but will be at Jive Bar tonight and Fulham tomorrow night. :clap:

David Bailey
25th-May-2005, 07:53 PM
Perhaps they could make the Ashtons beach party a nudist one after 11pm? :devil:
Well, you first... :whistle:

Purple Sparkler
26th-May-2005, 10:09 AM
Well, you first... :whistle:

Given that those of us who are going early will have spent all day near a bar, I wouldn't rule it out... though suspect I will not have consumed the truckload of alcohol that would make it a possibility, as I'm hoping to go in for the Draw a Straw competition, so drinking would be a Bad Idea.

jockey
8th-June-2005, 01:42 AM
The question of drops and lifts' suitability in freestyle is frequently posed and the same answers tend to come back : unsuitable because unsafe under most circumstances esp. where lack of space.

However, whilst most lifts and many drops ARE a bad idea I can think of a few where lateral travel is minimal i.e., where the lady departs very little from the physical protection of the man and certainly stays closer than, say, the open whirlitzer or a simple passing move: the Ginger drop (lean plus basic seducer; bacbreaker (single oor double); one-armed dip aka Jon Brett Special.
I can even think of a lift that is completely safe - the star jump, where she is lifted up about 2 inches away from the leads body and goes straight up (no other couples are occupying that space..!)

I do loads of these sorts of drops in freestyle (with permission) and I really think the problems often alluded to, though real, do not apply to all leads, nor to all drops..

What I have to be careful of is what the woman does - so I pick my drops partner very carefully (having learnt the hard way); but when you are sure of each other there is no better way to make her look good IMHO.

jockey
8th-June-2005, 02:06 AM
I think in the UK there are a number of variations round this combo including the one you refer to. The lean/raise/slow drop is great for showing musical interpretation and looks 'nicer'. The quick drop variation is very effective as a punctuation move and is a 'crowd pleaser' but given the low skillset of many people doing drops in the UK its also dangerous. The dynamics of the drop put a strain on most muscle groups in the shoulders, back and neck for both parties. There would seem a fair chance fo whiplash type injury ..... though the BIGGEST crime is that I've rarely seen it done with any regard for the music. {The rant continues :sick: }
This drop is called the "Ginger Drop" and was taught by Simon De Lisle at Camber and also by Peter PHillips (everywhere); girls love it and its safe as houses. :cheers:

Gadget
8th-June-2005, 08:33 AM
The question of drops and lifts' suitability in freestyle is frequently posed and the same answers tend to come back : unsuitable because unsafe under most circumstances esp. where lack of space.
It's also lack of controll of the lady and lack of options if something goes wrong: if the lady is "grounded" then a simple change of direction, pull, block, hault... can warn of impending danger and prevent accident.
Much harder to do that when the lady is in free-fall, or you have her weight and are committed - and if it can be done, then you are more likley to injure either one of you in the avoidance action than you would have been if the impending doom was not avoided.

Mr Cool
8th-June-2005, 06:07 PM
It's also lack of controll of the lady and lack of options if something goes wrong: if the lady is "grounded" then a simple change of direction, pull, block, hault... can warn of impending danger and prevent accident.
Much harder to do that when the lady is in free-fall, or you have her weight and are committed - and if it can be done, then you are more likley to injure either one of you in the avoidance action than you would have been if the impending doom was not avoided.

The biggest problem with drops and airsteps is they tend to be poorly taught and performed. Position and technique are paramount, if you use strength it looks naf. The man MUST be aware of the space around him. I have performed safe drops and small ariels with lots of ladies and at many venues. The man must keep the ladies balance in mind at all times and you have control. :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

LMC
14th-June-2005, 12:39 PM
There wasn't a category I liked in the poll. I would like to post as "I am a man who would like to do drops/dips etc, but isn't good enough to risk it".

:yeah: - except change 'man' to 'woman' :wink:


I find that in a normal class there isn't enough repetition of a drop/dip with a suitable partner (many women either don't want to or are not a good physical match for me) to make me really confident about trying it in freestyle, or even to practise with a particular victim.?


:yeah: too - I know I've only done two intermediate classes, one with a dip? drop? (not sure which it would be described as) and one with a jump where the woman ends up sitting on the man's lap. Whilst I have no objection to sitting on a man's lap, it seems very unfair on the poor guy if I'm several inches taller and evidently heavier than he is. I'm worried about a) being dropped b) really injuring someone.

In the class with the jump, the teacher did give an alternative 'non-jump' move which seems to be a good solution as you don't have a 'choice' in the same way as you do when freestyling. As for me, I'll have a go if I feel confident enough and sign up for a workshop sometime (in the near future!)

David Franklin
14th-June-2005, 01:29 PM
The biggest problem with drops and airsteps is they tend to be poorly taught and performed.I'd have to disagree. The biggest problem is that the potential for getting hurt if something goes wrong is much greater than with other moves.


Position and technique are paramount, if you use strength it looks naf. The man MUST be aware of the space around him. I have performed safe drops and small ariels with lots of ladies and at many venues. The man must keep the ladies balance in mind at all times and you have control. :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:However good your technique, it is much harder to adjust to unexpected events while doing a lift or drop. If there's sufficient space, I don't think it's unreasonable to do an aerial, but that sufficient space should include a buffer zone that will let you bring the lift down safely if someone else does something stupid. In practical terms, that preculdes doing airsteps in most environments.

At the end of the day, the fact you never see David and Lily doing airsteps on a social floor should tell you something about whether "you can do it if your technique is good enough".

KatieR
17th-June-2005, 05:43 PM
I'd have to disagree. The biggest problem is that the potential for getting hurt if something goes wrong is much greater than with other moves.

.

I have a perfect practical example of this happening. Just last night at Fulham I was having a lovely time and was dancing with one particular gentleman who put me into a lean to drop. Now being one of my favourite drops I dont mind this move but my issue is this:

1) He didn't know how to execute this move properly - he did not wait for me to get secure before leaning and dropping, just as soon as I took his other hand (but before I had a secure grip for the drop) didn't even lean, just took a step back and leant forward - to which I nearly made head contact with the floor not to mention nearly falling from a standing position on my back.

2)when someone is doing a move (such as this particular drop) incorrectly I ask them to not try the move again. He kept asking me how to do the move and wanting me to show him how it is done properly. I explained the basic principle to the move and then thanked him for the dance and moved on - he got upset with me even though I finished the dance with him. I dont feel it is my place to 'teach' as Im not a teacher (yet) but still i felt a need to explain the move properly to help some other poor unsuspecting woman.

Drops and dips are some of my favourite moves but some guys to get a little 'cocky' and attempt moves they probably shouldn't.

David Franklin
17th-June-2005, 06:14 PM
I have a perfect practical example of this happening. Just last night at Fulham I was having a lovely time and was dancing with one particular gentleman who put me into a lean to drop. Now being one of my favourite drops I dont mind this move but my issue is this:

1) He didn't know how to execute this move properly - he did not wait for me to get secure before leaning and dropping, just as soon as I took his other hand (but before I had a secure grip for the drop) didn't even lean, just took a step back and leant forward - to which I nearly made head contact with the floor not to mention nearly falling from a standing position on my back.

Drops and dips are some of my favourite moves but some guys to get a little 'cocky' and attempt moves they probably shouldn't.Although the issue you raise is real, I'm afraid that's not really what I was getting at. Because bad technique, is, after all, fixable. But you can't fix the fact that your options for evasion are severely limited in a drop.

My "perfect example", and by far the worst accident I've ever had with a drop:

A few years ago at Hammersmith, I put my partner into a drop at the end of the track. "Perfectly safely", no problems etc... Nearby, (and this is after the track had ended!), a couple takes 3 steps towards us, and he then procedes to drop his partner straight on my partner's head! OK, I was partly at fault because I didn't react - I just didn't believe they were going to do that. But I was also limited in what I could do - I didn't have a hand free, I couldn't easily move us out of the way, and by the time I realised "yes, they really might be that stupid", I no longer had time or space to bring the drop back up.

Nowadays, I'd say I'd be much more able to protect my partner in that situation, but there's no getting away from the fact that it's a lot harder than with a normal move. And of course, lifts are worse still, particularly if spun - it takes a long time to brake all that angular momentum...

Gus
18th-June-2005, 04:24 PM
The biggest problem with drops and airsteps is they tend to be poorly taught and performed.To echo David's point, its the muppets doing them, all over the place that are the biggest problem.


The man MUST be aware of the space around him. I have performed safe drops and small ariels with lots of ladies and at many venues. This sounds a bit like the phrase, "never had an accident, but seen thousands". I've lost count fo teh number of times I've seen muppets going a daft move near me and i've had to get me and/or partner out of the way. Icant comment on the dance floor space in your neck of the woods but its a contstant gripe that people are still doing deep drops on packed danecfloors with little regard for other dancers.

and dont get me started on why people feel the need to do an airstep to MJ music ....

David Bailey
18th-June-2005, 06:29 PM
I cant comment on the dance floor space in your neck of the woods but its a contstant gripe that people are still doing deep drops on packed danecfloors with little regard for other dancers.
:yeah: And for me, the comment that DavidB and Lily don't do these in social venues is close to final word on whether they should be done or not, and certainly refutes any technique argument.

I don't do drops, too puny for my enemy Momentum, but I do slow mini-drops (OK, I'm sure there's a more technical term, but it's too hot), where I have space for it.

Tip: I usually try to ensure my hand is on the back of the lady's head when I do these, so if anything bumps her head, it'll hopefully hit my hand first (or, I can pull the head out of harm's way if I see approaching muppet :) ). On average, I'd say that saves about 1 nasty bump per year, so that's worth it IMO.

(Plus, it would hypothetically give a great position for hair-pulling in certain circumstances, but I wouldn't know about that sort of thing, being all repressed)

KatieR
18th-June-2005, 10:05 PM
Tip: I usually try to ensure my hand is on the back of the lady's head when I do these, so if anything bumps her head, it'll hopefully hit my hand first (or, I can pull the head out of harm's way if I see approaching muppet :) ). On average, I'd say that saves about 1 nasty bump per year, so that's worth it IMO.

(Plus, it would hypothetically give a great position for hair-pulling in certain circumstances, but I wouldn't know about that sort of thing, being all repressed)

Guys have done this with me before, used the hand behind the head and from a girls point of view, it definately makes you feel a lot safer doing a drop with someone you've not danced with before.

As for the hairpulling.... I might just feel the need to kick you in the head on my decent into the drop!

David Bailey
19th-June-2005, 09:33 AM
As for the hairpulling.... I might just feel the need to kick you in the head on my decent into the drop!
I only do hairpulling on request, so I think you're safe :innocent:

KatieR
20th-June-2005, 03:25 PM
I only do hairpulling on request, so I think you're safe :innocent:

**breathes a sigh of relief!**

David Bailey
20th-June-2005, 06:55 PM
**breathes a sigh of relief!**
Hey, I thought it was kinky at first too, but apparently it's pretty good under the right circumstances.

What do I know, I'm just sitting here all repressed and hot and bothered....

Plus, I've got to do a mini-salsa class this evening, and it's too damned hot. And I've got to demo a class, 'coz a Certain Person is "resting", :mad:

Still, at least there'll only be about 4 people there in this weather.

fletch
21st-June-2005, 06:08 PM
...but, ooh, somebody find me an empty dance floor and a capable man.... :devil: :D

Jane

I agree, but are we still talking about drops and seducers? :rofl:

Icey
18th-July-2005, 12:50 PM
Hi,

I'm a newbie on here and have been reading the posts. I'm very wary of drops as I haven't been dancing long. I've been scared off drops as someone tried one on me and I hadn't the faintest idea what to do or expect. He then wondered why I got it wrong - he hadn't even asked me if I could or would do a drop.

I can do simple little dips but find that some guys put their feet exactly where I try to put mine so I can't support myself. I've found that teachers always repeat to the girls how important it is to support their own weight (rightly so) but don't tell the guys to give them room to do it.

stewart38
18th-July-2005, 01:10 PM
Hi,

I'm a newbie on here and have been reading the posts. I'm very wary of drops as I haven't been dancing long. I've been scared off drops as someone tried one on me and I hadn't the faintest idea what to do or expect. He then wondered why I got it wrong - he hadn't even asked me if I could or would do a drop.

I can do simple little dips but find that some guys put their feet exactly where I try to put mine so I can't support myself. I've found that teachers always repeat to the girls how important it is to support their own weight (rightly so) but don't tell the guys to give them room to do it.

Tell them you dont like to be dropped

I see you dance at Chesham there usually a nice crowd

KatieR
18th-July-2005, 02:38 PM
Hi,

I'm a newbie on here and have been reading the posts. I'm very wary of drops as I haven't been dancing long. I've been scared off drops as someone tried one on me and I hadn't the faintest idea what to do or expect. He then wondered why I got it wrong - he hadn't even asked me if I could or would do a drop.

I can do simple little dips but find that some guys put their feet exactly where I try to put mine so I can't support myself. I've found that teachers always repeat to the girls how important it is to support their own weight (rightly so) but don't tell the guys to give them room to do it.

Hi Icey, welcome to the forum :flower:

Make a habit of telling people you dance with that you aren't doing drops or dips and once you become a more familiar face to them and they have danced with you more, they should soon be able to gauge your progess and only do moves that they know you have learnt and are ready for.

Unfortunately drops and dips if you haven't been taught the right technique and yes footwork *I hear hundreds of voices cry out we dont do footwork*, because i believe a big part of being able to do certain moves properly is footwork no matter what the dancers level or aspiration.

Maybe even ask the teacher after the lesson to show you some really basic dips and drops and the right way to hold yourself in these moves so they dont feel quite so scary because you will get hotshots who will try and pull all sorts of moves on the unsuspecting.

happy dancing!! :hug: :flower:

David Bailey
18th-July-2005, 02:48 PM
Hi Icey!

I'm very wary of drops as I haven't been dancing long.
I'm very wary of drops, and I've been dancing for, err, a long time - it's certainly nothing to be ashamed of.

Be firm, if someone does anything you don't like (not just drops), tell them so - the only way some people learn is by being told. Admittedly, a good dancer shouldn't really drop you without checking first that it's OK, but there are always some muppets around...

Lucy Locket
18th-July-2005, 03:01 PM
i know one guy who loves (and i mean loves) dips, drops, seducers, aerials. One particular drop we did practice together at home on carpet for ages & ages till we got it right & felt comfortable, but as for the rest he just goes for it. I've known & danced with him for a long time & although i'm comfortable with him i've seen him try out these moves with ladies he's never ever danced with. He's even tried new ones on me & just gone straight into it. I'm never too happy with that. I have told him not to do certain moves coz my back was aching but he does carry on so i walk away & don't dance with him again.

I have a back injury, my spine is out of place, coz i was dropped dancing with someone trying out a new move. We were in Notre Dame, Leicester Sq & had to walk miles back to the car (he had to support me) (he wouldn't leave till the end of the evening though) and then a long drive home. He should have taken me to the hospital but wanted to get home so dropped me off & left. Was off work for 2 weeks but was in so much pain never made it to the drs or hospital coz i couldn't drive & my children were then too young to drive too. It still aches to this day.

I think that dips & leans are ok but anything more should be done with a fixed partner that you're comfortable with & can trust, the same goes for the workshops, which is why i don't do them. The only workshop advertised for fixed partners is the aerials one.

I don't know how they are allowed to get away with teaching them the way they do. 1/2 hour of an intermediate class maybe a few minutes on a drop with different ladies & the men think they can do it & try it out during freestyle. Seen many a woman dropped.

Ladies if you don't want to do them just walk away, your health is far more important & if he has no respect for your wishes he shouldn't be dancing, he will hurt someone someday.

JoC
18th-July-2005, 07:13 PM
I have a back injury, my spine is out of place, coz i was dropped dancing with someone trying out a new move. We were in Notre Dame, Leicester Sq & had to walk miles back to the car (he had to support me) (he wouldn't leave till the end of the evening though) and then a long drive home. He should have taken me to the hospital but wanted to get home so dropped me off & left. Was off work for 2 weeks but was in so much pain never made it to the drs or hospital coz i couldn't drive & my children were then too young to drive too. It still aches to this day.
That is unbelievable. :(

David Bailey
19th-July-2005, 07:00 AM
{ snip horror story }
That's awful. :hug: :hug: :hug:
What a total and utter scumbucket.


Ladies if you don't want to do them just walk away, your health is far more important & if he has no respect for your wishes he shouldn't be dancing, he will hurt someone someday.
:yeah:
The only good thing about this experience is that telling it will hopefully drive home the point that some of these moves are dangerous.

And Lucy, :worthy: to you for carrying on dancing.

Barry Shnikov
21st-July-2005, 07:43 PM
One particular drop we did practice together at home on carpet for ages & ages till we got it right & felt comfortable

Is it me, or does that sound suspiciously like an excuse a teenager might give to his parents...? :whistle:

Tellina
28th-July-2005, 11:21 PM
Is it me, or does that sound suspiciously like an excuse a teenager might give to his parents...? :whistle:

Hehe :grin:

I absolutely love dips, drops, aerials, seducers... Unfortunately, there aren't enough dancers where I live (New York) who know how to do them so I don't get them as often as I would like :sad:

Lily

RogerR
29th-July-2005, 11:59 PM
If you do want to do them, develop a dancing partnership with someone you respect. Then learn and practise the moves before dancing them in a suitable place at a suitable time, while warmed up not tired out and while refreshed not inebriated.

If I ask "can I throw you about" I do mean just that!

jockey
1st-August-2005, 01:00 AM
The vast majority of contributions to this topic are negative yet the poll results display an overwhelming "win" for drops and seducers. So most of us like them. The drawback is the heightened danger level (particularly the problem of a late rescue when committed see Daviid Franklin"s contribution) and we all need to take this on board bearing in mind the horror stories that we have all read. However, if nearly 50% of women enjoy them a lot then there must be a lot of skilled droppers out there because drops are very unenjoyable if and when they go wrong..
Personally I have made it my business to become a skilled expert in drops and seducers (countless lessons and practice etc) and I have become skilled at all the safety measures. In 5 years I have an unblemished record on injuries (except to myself). I do not like it therefore when I get tarred with the same brush as the reckless or unskilled. (I got a dirty look the other day plus a comment). Its like being a good driver - passengers enjoy driving with you if you are safe even if you are a bit faster than some and if there is an accident its always the other guy. and if you havent had an accident then you are safe, aren"t you? Innocent till proved guilty..
One argument that I reject is this: if David and Lilly dont do drops and seducers in freestyle then we shouldnt (it takes hundreds of hours in private together to get a drop right in order to makkke it safe to demonstrate let alone do in public etc). David and Lilly have an outlet for their drops and aerials in competitions and cabaret, the vast majority of us dont; our "stage" is the freestyle floor and we are entitled to do flash moves within the appropriate safety guidelines and with the right training.
Because there are some bad drivers out there we dont take the bus, do we?
And if someone is driving badly near you (i.e, doing drops and seducers near you and you dont recognise them from comps and it looks a bit iffy, say) you slow down dont you...KEEP YOUR DISTANCE sounds good advice to me in both contexts (and keep an eye on your rear view and side mirrors if you are in the "driving seat"). :yeah:

ChrisA
1st-August-2005, 08:57 AM
And if someone is driving badly near you (i.e, doing drops and seducers near you and you dont recognise them from comps and it looks a bit iffy, say) you slow down dont you...KEEP YOUR DISTANCE sounds good advice to me in both contexts (and keep an eye on your rear view and side mirrors if you are in the "driving seat").

Aggressive drivers that force everyone else to keep out of the way to avoid accidents are not highly skilled, they are road hogs. On a crowded dance floor, just as on a busy road, you have no more right to the space than anyone else.

Even if someone is an accomplished practitioner of drops and seducers, they still have no right to force other people to crush up into a smaller space just because they want to do flash stuff that takes up four times as much room.

The attitude of those that insist on doing drops and seducers on busy floors is inconsiderate at best, IMO - the only reason there aren't more accidents is that the considerate ones do indeed keep their distance - at the expense of their own enjoyment.

LMC
1st-August-2005, 09:33 AM
The attitude of those that insist on doing drops and seducers on busy floors is inconsiderate at best, IMO - the only reason there aren't more accidents is that the considerate ones do indeed keep their distance - at the expense of their own enjoyment.

As someone who knows *nothing* on this subject, am I being completely unreasonable in my latest crusade, which is that a guy should *ask* (at the beginning of a track if he doesn't want to interrupt the 'mood' mid dance) whether his partner is OK to be dropped/seduced?

Someone I'd only danced with once before tried to drop me at a freestyle this weekend (and failed because I sabotaged). I didn't even know that what he was leading was a drop kick until I described the lead to someone else. It was a busy floor, and this person *knows* that I am not confident with drops/dips/leans/seducers.

I would love to be able to do them, but only with someone I know I can trust, and *not* until I know I can do them safely - taking my own weight where required/balancing correctly. This is not just for my own safety, but for that of my partner - I am not a small girl and don't want to injure anyone.

There are guys who appear to think that they have the god-given right to do drops on anyone, which is, IMO, arrogant beyond the realms of belief. Guys, just because *you* know what you're doing does NOT mean that it's safe or that we will be "happy". There are at least two on this forum - who should know better, given that general consensus appears to be "not in a busy freestyle" and "ask first".

David Franklin
1st-August-2005, 09:39 AM
Personally I have made it my business to become a skilled expert in drops and seducers (countless lessons and practice etc) and I have become skilled at all the safety measures. In 5 years I have an unblemished record on injuries (except to myself). I do not like it therefore when I get tarred with the same brush as the reckless or unskilled. (I got a dirty look the other day plus a comment). I don't know you as a dancer, so maybe you are the sole exception. But I don't know personally any man who does drops and can, with justification, say they are completely safe when done by him on a social floor. I know of several who teach drops and have had accidents (I will not name names!). Now you may think, and I would be inclined to agree, that done properly, the risk of doing dips and drops is acceptable. But claiming they are "completely safe" is, IMHO, mistaken.

As for dirty looks - it may have been completely uncalled for, and you may have been 100% in the right. But if I am doing dips, drops or aerials and see people looking askance, I tend to figure the problem is with my actions rather than theirs. I would say 95% of glares are when people feel they're having to get out of the way because of someone's dangerous drops. It's not just about not having accidents. It's about not getting in people's way, about people not having to give you a wide bearth, etc...


One argument that I reject is this: if David and Lilly dont do drops and seducers in freestyle then we shouldntDid anyone make this argument? The comment I made was about aerials; and I didn't actually say you can't do them in freestyle. Assuming you're not breaking venue rules, what you do comes down to risk assessment. The point is that there is always some risk; even for a couple as good as David and Lily. Anyone who thinks otherwise is someone I particularly don't want to see doing aerials on a social floor.

LMC
1st-August-2005, 10:08 AM
But I don't know personally any man who does drops and can, with justification, say they are completely safe when done by him on a social floor.

Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you.

Since my specialised subject is the bleedin' obvious, I would like to point out AGAIN, that it doesn't matter how good the lead is - if you've got an unco-ordinated ignorant thick like me then odds are even that one of us or someone around us could get hurt if you do a drop with checking beforehand.

On a more positive note, should I be flattered that the rest of my dancing has given the lead the impression that I'm "up to it?". Not sure, because if their judgement is so poor that they will consider dropping an Amazon like me without checking that I can be dropped safely.... :devil:

El Salsero Gringo
1st-August-2005, 10:32 AM
Perhaps I'm kidding myself but I do quite a lot of seducers, sometimes it's a nice way to end a dance (although I note DavidB's comments on that, above) - and I think (thought?) you can get a good feel for whether your partner is comfortable with the move as you go into it. If she doesn't lean - no seducer. If she keeps all her own weight - then it doesn't go low. If she's large - ditto.

Anyone who wants to glare at me (or walk off the dance-floor) I haven't noticed yet because I'm too insensitive. So you'd be better off having a quiet word afterwords if you think it's warranted.

Also did a couple of shoulder-blade lifts with known partners yesterday. If that took up too much floor space - ditto.

LMC
1st-August-2005, 10:54 AM
Having been tiresome and had a little rant, on due reflection I think that ESG makes a good point...

So a slight retraction, with apologies.... thinking about it in the cold light of day, if a lead tries a couple of leans with me and those go OK, then I probably wouldn't react so strongly/adversely to an attempted dip or drop. I have actually done the occasional drop with leads I know can 'take the strain' (think brick s**thouse builds :rofl: ). So maybe "building up" to a drop is the way to go.

But with a lead who doesn't know me, I stand by my completely unreasonable "ask first or I am more than likely to get upset and may even do a walk-off ". Yes, walking off may be an over-reaction - but I can't dance if I'm uptight (who can?) and I don't want to dance with someone who I don't feel safe with.

Additionally, if I as a complete novice can work all this out, then more experienced dancers have no excuse. IMO.

Zebra Woman
1st-August-2005, 11:53 AM
I love drops and dips even on a social floor. I like them to be scaled down if it's really crowded. I prefer to dance at the edge and if my head is lowered towards the outside of a social dance floor that is safe enough for me. I don't like my enjoyment of dips to inpinge on my neighbours enjoyment of their dance though, and agree with ChrisA.



Aggressive drivers that force everyone else to keep out of the way to avoid accidents are not highly skilled, they are road hogs. On a crowded dance floor, just as on a busy road, you have no more right to the space than anyone else.

Even if someone is an accomplished practitioner of drops and seducers, they still have no right to force other people to crush up into a smaller space just because they want to do flash stuff that takes up four times as much room.

The attitude of those that insist on doing drops and seducers on busy floors is inconsiderate at best, IMO - the only reason there aren't more accidents is that the considerate ones do indeed keep their distance - at the expense of their own enjoyment.


:yeah:

I have been wondering about this for years! The thing I find amazing is how whenever I dance with a really nice considerate partner, the floor space we have seems to shrink. Whereas the ambitious droppers and more dangerous dancers seem to command more space. I used to wonder if it was a playgound pecking order thing which was dictating the space sharing :what: . But now I am beginning to think the nicer the person, the more considerate they are for my saftey so the less space they use and therefore the less space they get. Which is exaclty what ChrisA said.



Personally I have made it my business to become a skilled expert in drops and seducers (countless lessons and practice etc) and I have become skilled at all the safety measures. In 5 years I have an unblemished record on injuries (except to myself).

:really:

Those words are absolutley petrifying to read as a woman :eek: . How can anyone be that sure? That kind of confidence in a man would scare me more than a crowded floor.

PRIDE COMES BEFORE A FALL

Mary
1st-August-2005, 11:57 AM
IMO the same rules apply to this topic as to life in general. The application of common sense, courtesy and respect - for those we are dancing with and those around us.

Whilst on the busy dance floor at the T-jive ESG wanted to do the shoulderblade lift (it's a small lift), I was dubious about the appropriateness of a lift on a busy floor and said so, however it takes up less floor space than a wurlitzer, or even a first move and there are no legs flying around (I hope!) so we did the move and I wasn't aware that anyone was inconvenienced by it. I am assuming that ESG had made that assessment when planning to execute the move (if you didn't then just lie Alec :wink: ).

I am also touched by the courtesy when a man I don't know asks if I am happy to do dips and drops - although this rarely happens :mad:

Accidents will happen, but common sense should always prevail. How many drivers do you see demonstrate common sense or even awareness?!!! :angry:

M

El Salsero Gringo
1st-August-2005, 12:09 PM
I am assuming that ESG had made that assessment when planning to execute the move (if you didn't then just lie Alec :wink: )I didn't fill in a risk assessment form or a method statement, but I did have a look around and decide that it would fit in the space available. Nor is it a particularly dangerous lift - nobody's got their feet up in the air, and if you collide with someone in the middle of it the worst they're likely to get is a kick in the knee. That's not any worse than being trodden on by someone's heel. If I inconvenienced anyone, well, oops.

This point about taking up too much room being 'inconsiderate'. If I see a couple doing a move that needs a bit more room then I'll give it to them - obviously, whether it's a dip, or anything else, otherwise I'd be colliding. If I need a bit more space for the duration of a move then I hope others will behave the same way. It's only inconsiderate if you all the time use up more space. Otherwise it's just a matter of fitting in with everyone around you.

I do know I bump/get bumped by people far more often doing 'average' moves when it's very easy to step back without looking than when I'm doing anything that has a whiff of danger about it when one tends to be much more circumspect.

El Salsero Gringo
1st-August-2005, 12:14 PM
In 5 years I have an unblemished record on injuries (except to myself).And I've never had an accident, except the times when I smashed up the front of my car....
passengers enjoy driving with you if you are safe even if you are a bit faster than some.One way to be a safe, comfortable driver is not to think that you're safer than others and so can go faster because of your above average skill.

Mary
1st-August-2005, 12:21 PM
I didn't fill in a risk assessment form or a method statement



Is that why it's not sitting on my desk this morning. Consider yourself bo**ocked young man.

I don't think it can be stressed too often the 3 C's. Common sense, consideration, and courtesy. OK, chuck in an A for good measure - awareness. Wow, you guys have so much to contend with - thinking what moves to lead, listening to the music, as well as all this other stuff. Phew! :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: to those who do it.

M

LMC
1st-August-2005, 12:23 PM
:really:

Those words are absolutley petrifying to read as a woman :eek: . How can anyone be that sure? That kind of confidence in a man would scare me more than a crowded floor.
:yeah:

spindr
1st-August-2005, 12:26 PM
But with a lead who doesn't know me, I stand by my completely unreasonable "ask first or I am more than likely to get upset and may even do a walk-off ". Yes, walking off may be an over-reaction - but I can't dance if I'm uptight (who can?) and I don't want to dance with someone who I don't feel safe with.
I definitely agree that the leader should try and remember to ask (http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/acrobatic_moves.html) -- but then again I think that the follower should also take some responsibility if they aren't keen on certain moves (for whatever reason (http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/dancing_with_confidence.html#footnote-d0e2560)).

SpinDr.

Tessalicious
1st-August-2005, 12:31 PM
To add my two-pennorth, I almost always really enjoy being put into leans/drops/seducers in freestyle, although with some new partners who do I would prefer to have been asked because their leads into them aren't always good enough for me (still not perfectly balanced for myself on such moves) to feel completely comfortable being thrown into a drop without warning.

A leader should always be considerate when planning moves where the follow is completely reliant on his/her strength or balance, but I feel sure a lot of guys have no idea how scary a drop can feel if you're not used to it. I know I'm probably guilty of this a little when I lead, because I love being dropped etc so I assume any ladies I dance with will love it to - but just cos I'm a girl doesn't mean you can't yell at me if I make you feel unsafe.

Lifts and jumps are another matter - I would agree they should only really be done with a partner you are not only very comfortable with but with whom you have practised the move off the main floor first, and also only when it fits into what is going on around you on the dancefloor.

I remember a particular guy who I first danced with when I had been dancing about 2 months, and asked me if I was ok with drops. When I tentatively said yes, he put me straight into the jump shown on the Ceroc logo - a terrifying experience, but at the same time exhilarating since he was able to do it without me feeling unsafe - after about 5 times of doing this I even managed to stop putting my hand down to the floor to catch myself! Now whenever I dance with this partner there are about 4 jumps that he leads, all of which take up less room than most beginners moves and don't encroach on any other dancers as far as I can tell. But if anyone else tried these I'd probably go straight back to being terrified!


I only do hairpulling on request, so I think you're safe :innocent:Is there a list of 'ladies that won't slap you if you pull their hair' - and where do I sign? :devil:

El Salsero Gringo
1st-August-2005, 12:33 PM
Is there a list of 'ladies that won't slap you if you pull their hair' - and where do I sign? :devil:I think you just did, you shameless hussy.

Rachel
1st-August-2005, 12:42 PM
... I am also touched by the courtesy when a man I don't know asks if I am happy to do dips and drops - although this rarely happens :mad: ... M

:yeah: :yeah:

I feel compelled to break my forum silence and write on this since today, after the weekend's dancing, my knees are so sore that walking is really painful. The other night, my knees hurt so much by bedtime that I dreamt I had broken my leg and was begging Marc to take me to A&E.

Like Mary, I love it when guys ask before they do any kind of dips/drops. A very rare occurence, but lovely when it happens. Now I don't especially mind doing gentle dips/drops, (though I'd far rather have a dance without), with men I trust and who allow me to retain some semblance of control.

But why why why do so many men seem to fill an entire dance with drops? Particularly men who are forceful, who I don't know, who kick your feet out from under you, .... I danced solidly for over 3 hours at Ashtons on Sunday and just about every single partner (though not any of my favourite dancers) did several dips or drops in the space of just one song!

I know that, really, the onus is on me not to allow this. And when I could, I refused to drop down. But often the lead is very forceful. And what especially annoyed me, were those who kept on doing drops even after I'd asked them not to at the start of the dance and had explained that my knees were hurting too much.

Think about it ... how many dances can you have in 3 hours? And if the majority of your partners are doing even gentle dips half-a-dozen times, every song, that is a hell of a lot of wear and tear on your (well, my) body ...

Am I just getting too old for this dancing lark ....?

I'm sorry that my only post in months is such a moaning one. But it had got to that stage on Sunday where I was seriously about to pin a notice to my top saying 'Please no dips!'.

On another topic .... I am soooo gutted, after reading everyone's comments, that we missed the Rutland t-jive on Sunday. We were planning to go there, right up to the last hour before we left. But we'd got so delayed that we wouldn't have arrived much before 4pm, and I'd also figured that it was going to be so crowded that there wouldn't be any room to dance at all. Albeit no room but with the best dancers and best music. So we went to Ashtons ... And then Berkhamstead.

So sorry for everyone's birthday celebrations I missed - belated congratulations to Tony & Sue!! - and apologies to Neil for saying we'd be there and not turning up. Next time, huh?!!

Rachel xx

Tessalicious
1st-August-2005, 12:42 PM
...you shameless hussy.Me, shameless? :whistle:

David Franklin
1st-August-2005, 12:43 PM
I didn't fill in a risk assessment form or a method statement, but I did have a look around and decide that it would fit in the space available. Nor is it a particularly dangerous lift - nobody's got their feet up in the air, and if you collide with someone in the middle of it the worst they're likely to get is a kick in the knee. That's not any worse than being trodden on by someone's heel. If I inconvenienced anyone, well, oops.I don't know the lift you're talking about and it may well have been fine. My general concern about "small" lifts on a crowded floor is when they're spun - they often take more space than you're aware of and are surprisingly difficult to stop. I think all the aerial collisons I've ever seen have been on spun moves. I know it's not quite the same scenario, but one of the "small" spun lifts in our last cabaret would take me three complete turns to stop. Not much chance of avoiding someone who gets in the way there!


This point about taking up too much room being 'inconsiderate'. If I see a couple doing a move that needs a bit more room then I'll give it to them - obviously, whether it's a dip, or anything else, otherwise I'd be colliding. If I need a bit more space for the duration of a move then I hope others will behave the same way. It's only inconsiderate if you all the time use up more space. Otherwise it's just a matter of fitting in with everyone around you. Dunno about this. I don't really think you should ever intentionally do a move that requires people around you to make space. On the other hand, I'm fully aware it's going to happen by accident, probably quite often. And yes, it's simple courtesy that they should make space in that case.


I do know I bump/get bumped by people far more often doing 'average' moves when it's very easy to step back without looking than when I'm doing anything that has a whiff of danger about it when one tends to be much more circumspect.Yeah - bumping people going backwards happens all the time, especially on a crowded floor (and my depth judgement seemed particularly poor yesterday :blush: ). And I know of more serious accidents caused by spinning than by drops. It is a matter of perspective.

LMC
1st-August-2005, 12:44 PM
But with a lead who doesn't know me, I stand by my completely unreasonable "ask first or I am more than likely to get upset and may even do a walk-off ". Yes, walking off may be an over-reaction - but I can't dance if I'm uptight (who can?) and I don't want to dance with someone who I don't feel safe with.I definitely agree that the leader should try and remember to ask (http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/acrobatic_moves.html) -- but then again I think that the follower should also take some responsibility if they aren't keen on certain moves (for whatever reason (http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/dancing_with_confidence.html#footnote-d0e2560)).

SpinDr,
:yeah:

And as you've quoted part of my post in yours, may I point out that I also said in an earlier post:


It was a busy floor, and this person *knows* that I am not confident with drops/dips/leans/seducers.

(maybe not clear in original post: "this person" referred to the lead, not the wonderful lady who explained what was being led to me afterwards)

Zebra Woman
1st-August-2005, 12:45 PM
Is there a list of 'ladies that won't slap you if you pull their hair' - and where do I sign? :devil:

Oh goody! :drool:

*rubs hands together*

Does that mean you're going to pull my hair next time? :drool:

Sign here Tessaluscious :

I Tessaluscious would like my hair to be pulled gently but firmly when the music/drops dictate. I withold the right to change my mind at any point. I will ask the person I'm dancing with for this extra service.


...............................



I will PM you the list of ladies who like it and of course our list of approved hair pullers. None of them would ever do it unless you asked them first. :innocent:



ZW :flower:

LMC
1st-August-2005, 12:56 PM
Is there a list of 'ladies that won't slap you if you pull their hair' - and where do I sign? :devil:

Yet another badge? :rolleyes:

:rofl:

JoC
1st-August-2005, 01:00 PM
Also did a couple of shoulder-blade lifts with known partners yesterday.
I have quite a bizarre mental image of this move based on name...

Tessalicious
1st-August-2005, 01:05 PM
Yet another badge? :rolleyes:

:rofl:Badge? I don't need badges - if a guy doesn't me well enough to know that I like certain moves or styles, he certainly doesn't know me well enough to pull my hair.
Anyway, where would I find room for badges on the dresses I wear?

spindr
1st-August-2005, 01:13 PM
My general concern about "small" lifts on a crowded floor is when they're spun - they often take more space than you're aware of and are surprisingly difficult to stop.
:yeah:

One of the scariest incidents I've had was when a nearby dancer placed his partner to lie horizontally on one of his shoulders and then rotated several times. I still have the vision of a pair of stiletto heels being whirled around at head/eye height on the dancefloor.

It was one of the rare occasions when I've had to have "a quiet word".

SpinDr.

bigdjiver
1st-August-2005, 03:00 PM
... if nearly 50% of women enjoy them a lot ...the poll shows only responding forumites, which is probably not representative. The percentage shown is of respondents, including men. At time of writing it is 46 in favour out of 69 women respondents, so its a clear majority of them in favour.

El Salsero Gringo
1st-August-2005, 03:38 PM
Anyway, where would I find room for badges on the dresses I wear?Good point. OK then, leave off the dress and just wear the badge.

Is there a list for guys who like having their hair pulled? Or the hair on their heads?

Zebra Woman
1st-August-2005, 03:53 PM
Good point. OK then, leave off the dress and just wear the badge.

Is there a list for guys who like having their hair pulled? Or the hair on their heads?

There is actually.

But they have to have hair to pull. :confused:

Tessalicious
1st-August-2005, 04:01 PM
There is actually.

But they have to have hair to pull. :confused:Hehe, guess he'll just have to grow it all back then if he wants to join that group. Oh ZW, who's on that list, any idea :devil: (I'm guessing probably not DavidJames...)


Good point. OK then, leave off the dress and just wear the badge. Oh yes, of course, why didn't I think of that? :rolleyes: I'm going to resist asking what you think I should pin the badge to...

Zebra Woman
1st-August-2005, 04:43 PM
Hehe, guess he'll just have to grow it all back then if he wants to join that group. Oh ZW, who's on that list, any idea :devil: (I'm guessing probably not DavidJames...)


Now that is a VERY SHORT LIST INDEED and I'm afraid young lady you're gonna have to make it yourself. I can give you a pointer though - I would recommend persuading ESG to grow his hair back. :innocent:



Oh yes, of course, why didn't I think of that? :rolleyes: I'm going to resist asking what you think I should pin the badge to...

I can help! Pick me! :devil:

Andreas
1st-August-2005, 08:59 PM
At some point, when the Jive Aces were playing at Ashton's they actually announced a piece of music, which had a 30-second intro that apparently did ask for drops on end. When I told the lady I danced with that I'd not do a single drop then, seeing it was announced, she looked at me REALLY disappointed. So I showed myself from my best side and, while not doing a single drop or lean during the first part, I did only drops and leans for the remainder of the song :rofl:

But more importantly in these regards, as far as I noticed the discussion was only about ladies not wishing to be put into drops. How often does it happen when the ladies want drops to be added but the guys say 'no'? I occasionally do tell ladies 'no drops' when they put themselves into dips (try anyway :D ) when I just don't feel like doing any such moves. But how common is that?

David Bailey
6th-August-2005, 09:44 PM
Personally I have made it my business to become a skilled expert in drops and seducers
I presume that's one step up from these unskilled experts - Pah, I too spit on them. :whistle:


I have become skilled at all the safety measures.
As a Unskilled Unexpert, I would presume one measure might be "don't do dodgy moves with an unknown partner in a crowded venue?"


In 5 years I have an unblemished record on injuries (except to myself).
Really? :what: Maybe I'm just a UU, but I've given and received injuries in the past 5 months, let alone years. Injuries happen, the best you can do is to try your utmost to minimize the risk. And apologise profusely afterwards of course.


One argument that I reject is this: if David and Lilly dont do drops and seducers in freestyle then we shouldnt
Me too - but I made that argument about arials, not drops / seducers. Seducers are nice, mmm.

Oh, and in that vein:

Is there a list of 'ladies that won't slap you if you pull their hair' - and where do I sign? :devil:
Well, being the innocent that I am, I only became aware of the HairPulling Cabal a few months ago - you'll have to ask them re: lists. I just do what I'm told... :devil:

MartinHarper
7th-August-2005, 01:01 AM
Chuck in an A for good measure - awareness. Wow, you guys have so much to contend with...

Good followers are just as aware of their dancefloor surroundings as I am, and frequently more so. It's not a skill restricted to leads.


Should I be flattered that the rest of my dancing has given the lead the impression that I'm "up to it?"

Nah - a few folks have even tried to drop me, which was courageous but kinda futile. It's just guys trying to find out the limits of your following by trial and error.

KatieR
7th-August-2005, 10:46 AM
But more importantly in these regards, as far as I noticed the discussion was only about ladies not wishing to be put into drops. How often does it happen when the ladies want drops to be added but the guys say 'no'? I occasionally do tell ladies 'no drops' when they put themselves into dips (try anyway :D ) when I just don't feel like doing any such moves. But how common is that?

My personal belief is that the lady should be just as respectful of a guy that doesn't want to do drops and seducers etc as he needs to be of her. There could be a number of reasons why he doesn't do these moves ie injuries etc. There is just as much risk involved if a guy is not sure on the move even if they lady is skilled in dips and drops. I dance the moves I am lead, if there is no dips or drops in the dance it gives me a chance to work on other skills such as following and styling. Just because a dance is not full of dips and drops doesn't make it any less of a dance. There is still just as much to be learnt.

LMC
7th-August-2005, 11:23 AM
The air con at Woking broke down and was offline for a couple of hours last night - and no fans :eek: If we're creating a drops etiquette guide here, can I add: if you are soaking wet, please don't try to drop someone. Unless you know them well enough to share bodily fluids? I probably wasn't entirely dry at that point, but he looked like he'd just come out of the shower :sick:

Luckily, as he was at least 6 inches shorter than me and probably weighed less I had no problem sabotaging that one - it was the end of the track, I just hastily let go.