Blackpool '05 - an Open category??

[ChrisA]

Remember Blackpool '04? Doesn't it seem a long time ago? :D

It had no Open category - so all the superstars crammed into Advanced with all the untoward consequences we've discussed ad nauseam :sad:

Well I emailed C2D a few days ago suggesting they have an Open category - spurred on by my feelings after the Ceroc Champs the other day.

God forbid that we go down any recently well-worn paths again, but I thought the categories worked really well at the Champs, which gave the superstars the chance to compete amongst themselves, giving us a fantastic show in the process, and also allowed our very own Dale among others to show us what they're made of in the Advanced.
Anyway, today I got a response to the effect that they're considering it... :cheers:

... but haven't yet come to a conclusion.

So, anyone that thinks it would be good to have an Open at Blackpool next year, I'd urge to help things along a little by letting them know. Their email address is achance2dance@hotmail.com.

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

Welcome to the gang, Chris. Now you can see things from my point of view, having come 3rd in an intermediate there's really nowhere for us to go at Blackpool.

We don't belong in intermediates any more, at least not with a partner who's also been a successful intermediate if we're to believe the Oracle. But we don't fit into the Advanced class either with the likes of Viktor, Clayton, etc.

I have some ideas for Blackpool and, now that you've prompted me I'll start to communicate them to the C2D team. One thing we can be sure of is that the current situation means we've got no natural level to compete at in Blackpool:tears:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Welcome to the gang, Chris. Now you can see things from my point of view
Well, the lack of an Open at Blackpool struck me fairly obviously as not a great thing even before last weekend, and of course it came up in discussion, but I hadn't had the experience to feel able to comment on that aspect of the organisation.

I just feel now that the presence of an Open cat at Ceroc (and, for that matter, their rule preventing people entering more than one category**) is something they do really well.

But please don't associate me with any gang, or assume anything about my point of view, or my sympathy towards others' point of view, other than in what I write.

Chris

** more than one amongst Intermediate, Advanced and Open, that is. I'm aware, of course that you could enter one of those and the Old Gits and Double Trouble.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by ChrisA
** more than one amongst Intermediate, Advanced and Open, that is. I'm aware, of course that you could enter one of those and the Old Gits and Double Trouble. I believe that you could also do the lucky dip, as well as the ones already mentioned.

I think that next year, Bill is aiming to do a showcase, and a team cabaret (on his own) too :whistle:

Trampy

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by ChrisA
But please don't associate me with any gang, or assume anything about my point of view, or my sympathy towards others' point of view, other than in what I write.

Hey, it was just a figure of speech, sorry if anyone thought I was speaking for ChrisA:blush:

There is no gang. But if there was one we'd be the kind of gang that purrs into town on our scooters, drinks Latte and holds doors open for nice old ladies:flower:

[RobC]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Remember Blackpool '04? Doesn't it seem a long time ago? :D

It had no Open category - so all the superstars crammed into Advanced with all the untoward consequences we've discussed ad nauseam :sad:

Are you suggesting that they exclude teachers from the advanced category then (like Ceroc do) ? How would you differentiate between Advanced and Open Categories ? (There's been a big enough debate about the difference between intermediate and advanced :devil: )

Personally, I consider the simple two category split much easier to manage - teachers in advanced, everyone else can enter intermediate if they don't want to compete against 'the big boys'. I wouldn't like to see Blackpool go the Ceroc route. I, while I may be an advanced dancer (depending on who's definitions you use), definitely am not a 'superstar', and don't want to be forced to compete in an exclusive competition of 20-30 dancers just because I teach.

If you are only concerned with excluding the 'superstars' from your advanced competition to make it more likely for you to reach the final, why don't you suggest excluding showcase competitiors from the advanced ? Advanced dancers should be able to dance/compete against advanced dancers, regardless of their teaching status or if you consider them a 'superstar'.

[Bill]

I can see this can turn into the usual - who's advanced and who isn't and not all the best dancers are teachers etc.......

I think ( :what: ) that most folk would agree that there are perhaps a dozen or so 'great' dancers or couples on the go - at least those who compete. We would all expect C & J, Kate & Will, Amir, Lily, James, Hayley et al to reach finals and those like Trampy who do make finals or at least the semi's of most comps.

But many teachers are not anywhere as good as the top competitors and it must be quite a thought that if they want to compete it has to be against the very best dancers. But what's the alternative ? A grading system ( mentioned elsewhere) that somehow 'selects' the best 20 or so for an Open category and allows the rest to compete on a fairly even basis ?

Even amongst teachers there's a split. Those who only teach at their venue for Ceroc or Blitz or whoever and those who teach at various events and weekenders. Would one split be Open for all those who regularly teach on the circuit - at Rock Bottoms, Beach Boogie etc.... and so are therefore considered amongst the top teachers - and the Advanced for everyone else ??? Would any of the 'top' teachers appear in the Advanced now ?? Can you see N & N, Lily, Amir, K &W entering the Advanced ?

I agree with Andy ( sorry !!!!!!!!!!!!!) and said a while ago that he and I are amongst the group of Advanced Intermediates. Perhaps just above the Intermediate level but miles from the top dancers. And it's not about winning. Even without J & C et al I still wouldn't win - it's about competing with those dancers who are about the same level.

What about a poll then :na: :D .......... The Ceroc Scotland forumites say that the following dancers should be banned from the Advanced....................... :whistle: :D :na:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by RobC
Are you suggesting that they exclude teachers from the advanced category then (like Ceroc do) ? How would you differentiate between Advanced and Open Categories ? (There's been a big enough debate about the difference between intermediate and advanced :devil: )

I never said anything about teachers. You're making big assumptions here. This is an example of what I explicitly asked Andy not to do - to assume things about what my opinion might be other than on the basis of what I say it is. Please don't do it.

Personally I think barring teachers from any category is wrong - in fact, the "teacher" issue is a complete red herring IMO. There are teachers that are very good dancers and would probably do well at competition - and there are teachers that IMHO look crap.

Neither would I exclude showcase competitors. If their showcase practice makes them good at freestyle then good luck to them. But it might not. I can think of one showcase couple that in my personal opinion look great in their showcase but don't look like anything at all when they're freestyling. In fact for all I care an intermediate couple (with bigger balls than mine :D ) might want to have some showcase practice and put a routine together and perform it. That doesn't make them advanced.

I also incline towards the view that someone shouldn't enter more than one out of Intermediates/Advanced/Open.


Advanced dancers should be able to dance/compete against advanced dancers, regardless of their teaching status or if you consider them a 'superstar'.
Sure - but I can't imagine it's just me that considers Clayton and Janine, Will and Kate, Viktor, Amir, Lily, James and the few others that come to most of our minds as superstars.

I think it's probably enough that if you place in a nth-rank competition then you move up in that rank or below in future, with an option maybe to move back down after a year or two if you never get past the first round at the next category up. And despite the fact that you told me I was talking bo11ocks to associate rules with ethics (personally I'd prefer to keep the debate polite), I would expect most people to gravitate towards the right category for them.

Look, I'm not trying to write a rule book in two paragraphs - it isn't possible. I was just drawing attention to something I thought worked well at Ceroc that didn't at Blackpool.

I can totally understand why teachers such as yourself - better than intermediate as a dancer but not super-advanced like Clayton et al - would feel disenfranchised by the "no-teachers" rule at Ceroc Advanced, and we're probably in agreement about that.

But unless we move to Andy's scheme whereby you just have one competition and the results of the first round define the categories, I guess what it boils down to is that two categories aren't enough.

But let's get the teacher issue separate, like I say.

Chris

[RobC]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I never said anything about teachers. You're making big assumptions here. This is an example of what I explicitly asked Andy not to do - to assume things about what my opinion might be other than on the basis of what I say it is. Please don't do it.

Chris, this is clearly a question, and not an assumption - spot the question mark ? You do mention the Ceroc champs in your original post, so I thought it a fair question to ask your opinion on whether teachers should be excluded (like Ceroc does).



I also incline towards the view that someone shouldn't enter more than one out of Intermediates/Advanced/Open.
:yeah: That I would agree with.



Sure - but I can't imagine it's just me that considers Clayton and Janine, Will and Kate, Viktor, Amir, Lily, James and the few others that come to most of our minds as superstars.

I think it's probably enough that if you place in a nth-rank competition then you move up in that rank or below in future, with an option maybe to move back down after a year or two if you never get past the first round at the next category up. And despite the fact that you told me I was talking bo11ocks to associate rules with ethics (personally I'd prefer to keep the debate polite), I would expect most people to gravitate towards the right category for them.
OK, here's a thought for filtering out the 'superstars': How about excluding any JiveMasters Final competitors ? By that, I don't mean the Finals in the Final, I mean anyone that got through the various Heats - about 20 or so couples....

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Bill
And it's not about winning.
Another thing I liked about the Ceroc champs in comparison with Blackpool was the fact that there were more rounds. Although it's more gruelling, the finer gradation means that it's possible to get a better measure of how well you do - even if you are up against superstars.

Just to illustrate, the intermediates at Blackpool were three rounds - 72 couples, 24, then 8.

At Ceroc there were 5 rounds - 60 couples, then 40, 30, 10, 5.

Getting to the semis at Blackpool happened in a blur after one track, and one track later it was all over. Whereas at Ceroc the excitement really built up for me during the rounds.

Oh I dunno, my comp experience is very limited - and I'm the first to see why I might have enjoyed the champs more than Blackpool :blush:

Maybe the differences between the comps is just part of the rich tapestry that is the MJ world. Ask me again in a year or so... :D

Chris

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by ChrisA
But unless we move to Andy's scheme whereby you just have one competition and the results of the first round define the categories, I guess what it boils down to is that two categories aren't enough.


So you totally agree with Andy then ?

Sorry, just getting on the assumption bandwagon, I was going to reply to RobC myself about that - he likes to make assumptions on occasion which escalates any thread from "mundane" to "woo excitement". Which is nice. :) Bad Rob, Im sure Sheena can spank him later :)

Theres a need for 3 catagories i think and the Intermediate, Advanced, Open combo does seem to cover it pretty well. However if Blackpool was to copy the rule of 'no teachers' in advanced it would force the good teachers to compete against the superstars in the open thus not fixing anything. So the 3 catagories are a great idea but would we have the same problem of superstars entering advanced as we did with almost-advanced entering intermediate. Grey area again, but its the middle dancers split between int-adv that we are doing this for mostly so itll be an improvement in my opinion.

If people enter the wrong catagory, clearly the answer is to beat them with sticks until they stop. Who ? Whoever we think is 'wrong' :D

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by RobC
Chris, this is clearly a question, and not an assumption - spot the question mark ? You do mention the Ceroc champs in your original post, so I thought it a fair question to ask your opinion on whether teachers should be excluded (like Ceroc does).

If it was a genuine question aimed at elucidating my view, then I apologise. I'd just made no mention of teachers, so I clearly wan't "suggesting" anything about them.

Hope I've now made my view clear, though.



OK, here's a thought for filtering out the 'superstars': How about excluding any JiveMasters Final competitors ? By that, I don't mean the Finals in the Final, I mean anyone that got through the various Heats - about 20 or so couples....
I don't really feel qualified to answer that question, but my inclination would be that it's not necessary to enforce a different rule at that level. A placing at Advanced and you move up, I think (and subsequently back down if you never get anywhere). Apart from that, most people, as I say, will gravitate towards the right category, driven on the one hand by a feeling for where they stand a chance of progressing, and on the other by a sense of fair play. It's only where these factors get out of balance for whatever reason that you need a rule to arbitrate.

I'd be interested to see the list of JM finalists though, so that I can calibrate my own perception of who's super-advanced.

Chris

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
So you totally agree with Andy then ?
Why, does he think you're a muppet?

:D

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Why, does he think you're a muppet?


Quite possibly, but I take that as a compliment :)

[Gareth]

.
Personally I think barring teachers from any category is wrong - in fact, the "teacher" issue is a complete red herring IMO. There are teachers that are very good dancers and would probably do well at competition - and there are teachers that IMHO look crap.


Jill & I teach for free on an irregular basis. Consensus was that we had to dance advanced level at Blackpool and Open category at Hammersmith. :confused:

We have found that we are now completely out of our depth. Just because we have started teaching does not mean we have the ability to compete along side the "SUPERSTARS" previously stated in this thread. :tears:

We are now aware of others in this position and they too are having second thoughts

Also we rarely perform aerials because we are of similar height and weight and find them physically too demanding. Ceroc forced us into attempting a number of them.

Now we are seriously considering abandoning freestyle all together. What motivation is there for us to keep going.?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Gareth
Jill & I teach for free on an irregular basis. Consensus was that we had to dance advanced level at Blackpool and Open category at Hammersmith. :confused:

IIRC, the Blackpool definition of a teacher is one that has taught MJ for money in the last two years. So if you teach for free you're probably entitled to enter the Blackpool intermediates!!

Also, the only definition of a teacher I've seen from Ceroc is either someone CTA-trained, or someone that teaches regularly at a recognised MJ night. So technically you might qualify for the Advanced at the Ceroc champs too (and Intermediates, for that matter :rolleyes: )


We have found that we are now completely out of our depth. Just because we have started teaching does not mean we have the ability to compete along side the "SUPERSTARS" previously stated in this thread. :tears:

A spectacular example of how the "teacher" rules are complete pants, IMO.

I don't want to do aerials either. So I'm hoping that the rules change before I get good enough in the freestyle categories for it to matter to me - they've got a pretty long time to sort that out I reckon :D

In general I'd be happy not to see any aerials in a super-advanced category, though I wouldn't have wanted to miss David and Lily's performance on Sunday :worthy:

I'm looking forward to the DVD, though, since it did distract me from the others.... :tears:

Chris

[DavidB]

They have a category in the US called Strictly Swing. The top dancers take part, but are not allowed to compete with their regular partner. By gentlemans agreement they don't practice for it other than the occasional dance at a freestyle. Other couples (ie not regular finalists) do take part together, and frequently win. It is purely freestyle. In many cases it has a lower entry fee (similar to DWAS) but correspondingly lower value of prizes.

Maybe this is a way of getting round a few problems. Anyone wanting to do more than one competition can. Anyone who feels intimidated by the top couples doesn't have to worry. Anyone who just wants to compete with minimum practice can, and still have a realistic chance.

You could call it 'Dance With A Friend'.

David

[JamesGeary]

Teaching or not doesn't really relate to dance ability. I also think this is a red herring.

I think aerials should be very restricted in any competition, otherwise you get hordes of people having to spend huge amounts of time training in gyms and rooms, which isn't fun, and not dancing, which is fun.

I would say anyone who has ever placed in any freestyle mj/ceroc competition any level has to enter the top level / open.

It means everyone gets to win something before they have to compete against real tough competition.

[Gadget]

Why not have an 'invite' cattegory for all those 'superstars'? {named "By invitation", or "Superstars", or "Advanced Plus", or "stop-what-you-are-doing you-have-got-to-watch-this" or...}

I agree that you should only dance in one of the 'main' competitions; intermediate/advanced/open(/invite).

I also agree with the 'teaching' thing: it shouldn't influence the cattegories you enter.

I'm unsure about the air-steps {couldn't decide on how to miss-spell ariels} since I won't/don't/can't do them.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
I would say anyone who has ever placed in any freestyle mj/ceroc competition any level has to enter the top level / open.

It means everyone gets to win something before they have to compete against real tough competition. I'm a bit stunned by this, James, unless it's your trademark dry humour :wink:

Do you really mean that 3rd at Intermediate once has to skip straight to Open next time round - and can't enter even at Advanced? If so, then I'm not sure we're on the same dance planet (well, I guess I already knew that :tears: )

:tears:

And what about people that haven't won anything but still want to have a go? I recall one (IMHO completely barking) couple that did the open last year's Ceroc that had no chance at all... but good luck to them, I thought.

Do elaborate :flower:

Chris

[spindr]

Originally posted by Gadget
I also agree with the 'teaching' thing: it shouldn't influence the cattegories you enter.

Can't see what's wrong with a teachers *only* category myself :) Surely all the "superstars" mentioned are teachers? :devil:

I guess that if you wanted to, you *could* break the bigger competitions down in different ways:
1). Pro / am - if you ever enter the pro, you can't go back as an amateur (for some longish period) -- no prize, just kudos for the amateurs.
2). Musical genre - hip-hop jive competition, versus jazz-jive-swing.
3). No acrobatics versus dips'n'drops versus aerials.
4). You could even break it down by region -- have small sub-competitions for various post-code areas. And then let the winners from those fight it out for the overall title. I quite like this one, provided I can register for "Sark" or something similar.
5). Do something more like a league based competition, rather than a strict knockout.
6). Would be quite fun to have an "anything goes" fun freestyle competition -- don't restrict it *just* to MJ -- yes it would be horendous to judge :) I just think you shouldn't get penalised if you dance the "correct" dancestyle (accidentally), e.g. Boogie Woogie if the DJ plays Boogie Woogie choo-choo train, or similar :)

SpinDr.

[Bill]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Another thing I liked about the Ceroc champs in comparison with Blackpool was the fact that there were more rounds. Chris


So I realised :sick: :D

The problem of course is that the more rounds you have the more time it takes and the less freestyle available. Thought they paced things pretty well at London but in Blackpool there are more competitions and certainly more showcases which eats into the day.

As for the 'teacher debate' it does seem complete nonsense if the definition is only regular MJ teachers. That could mean someone newly qualified as a Ceroc teacher would have to enter the Open whereas anyone who taught anywhere that wasn't a MJ venue but had taught for years at the various weekenders could enter Advanced. And isn't it more likely that someone who is personally invited to an event is likely to be respected as a teacher and/or dancer ?

It's obvious that there's no easy solution and I sympathise with Gareth and his predicament.


And excluding Jive Masters finalists from Advanced wouldn't be a good idea either I idon't think. I've seen the video and while the finalists were superb there were some dancers in the earlier rounds who would really struggle to compete with the very best.

But............... at least the Advanced section in London has been far more 'open' and competitive for the alst 2 years and many more dancers can enter feeling that they might have a chance of reaching the final - or even being placed.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Bill
The problem of course is that the more rounds you have the more time it takes and the less freestyle available. Thought they paced things pretty well at London but in Blackpool there are more competitions and certainly more showcases which eats into the day.
I've been thinking about that too. At Blackpool, they were incredibly generous with the amount of space they gave you - there were no more than 8 couples on that floor at a time, IIRC.

Whereas at Hammersmith (a much smaller floor), there were 20 in each heat, in both the first two rounds of the Intermediates. So there were three heats in Intermediates Round 1 at Hammersmith, instead of nine ( :really: ) at Blackpool.

I haven't done the arithmetic, but it wouldn't be too hard at a guess to cut down the number of heats quite a lot without overcrowding the floor. Maybe that would make enough difference.

Chris

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I'm a bit stunned by this, James, unless it's your trademark dry humour :wink:

Do you really mean that 3rd at Intermediate once has to skip straight to Open next time round - and can't enter even at Advanced?
Chris

Ok a little cruel, but then its a black and white rule.

I mean you can't really compare what standard each competition is and what label each level has (with different numbers of levels in each country), in each year that has passed, and then work out where they should be in this year's competition.

Also I've always believed the winners in intermediate are always finalist material in the open / top level competition.

[RobC]

Originally posted by Bill
And excluding Jive Masters finalists from Advanced wouldn't be a good idea either I idon't think. I've seen the video and while the finalists were superb there were some dancers in the earlier rounds who would really struggle to compete with the very best.
My point with the JiveMasters Finalists was that, in order to be there in the first place, you have to have been invited, either because you were a previous competition winner / highly placed, or a teacher, or a renown 'Superstar'. And to make it through the heats to the Final, you obviously have to be amongst the 'top of the top'. That kinda makes a stab at defining a 'superstar'. If you felt the first round of competitiors in the JiveMasters Final was too low a standard, then maybe you could say semi-finalists and above ?



But............... at least the Advanced section in London has been far more 'open' and competitive for the alst 2 years and many more dancers can enter feeling that they might have a chance of reaching the final - or even being placed.
Yes, but at the cost of a larger community of teachers who are not 'Superstars' and no longer feel able to compete, just to be able to filter out a handful couples.

[LilyB]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Teaching or not doesn't really relate to dance ability. While I wholly agree with this sentiment, I believe the reason it is included in the rules of many competitions (rightly or wrongly) is to prevent competitors from having to compete against their own teachers in the same event - that would hardly be fair! It is also one of the reasons why David & I refrain from competing in the Blackpool Airsteps competition - having trained/helped a few of the competitors in that category, how would they feel if they had to compete against us? This in no way suggests that we would win but the feeling of 'unfair play' is bound to arise. It is noteworthy, of course, that the winners of both Blackpool & Ceroc (several times over) - C & J - are NOT teachers.


I think aerials should be very restricted in any competition, otherwise you get hordes of people having to spend huge amounts of time training in gyms and rooms, which isn't fun, and not dancing, which is fun. But how do you restrict aerials? Limit them to 3 per track, as at the Ceroc Champs (NB the promotional leaflet actually said 4 per track), put a time limit on each aerial, or height limit, or what? All you can realistically do is advise the judges that they should not reward aerials at the expense of floor dancing. David & I chose to do our lengthy aerials for one reason only - to entertain the audience. We were well aware (having had the same feedback at the Ceroc Australia comp) that the judges are bound to deduct marks for insufficient floor dancing but that was of no concern to us. The fact that the audience enjoyed watching our aerials was. As it turned out, we were gobsmacked (and over the moon!) that the judges saw fit to place us so highly. But rest assured, those of you who do not wish to spend vast amounts of time learning aerials (as David & I did), I believe what we did is a one-off and most certainly won't be repeated by us. We also must not lose track of the fact that the winners, C & J, did not do as complicated aerials as we did - they clearly won on the strength of their dancing. Hence, the argument about feeling compelled to do aerials is, I think, not a very persuasive one if your dancing ability is of a sufficiently high standard. The Open category is still, after all, a dance competition. At least, that is how I would see it if I was judging. :wink:

LilyB

[ChrisA]

:flower: :flower:

Well, FWIW, I believe there is a virtual category, not defined anywhere, membership of which is more restricted than the winners of any Open...

It contains those who have done so much, achieved so much, contributed so much, helped others so much, are generous with their time and resources, and are just generally such fantastic people...

... that whether they compete or not, win or not, they are the de facto cream of the cream.

Something like the "lifetime contribution to..." awards that you get in the music and film industries.

David and Lily would be in there, for my money.

:cheers: :worthy:

Chris

[Bill]

Originally posted by LilyB
David & I chose to do our lengthy aerials for one reason only - to entertain the audience. :wink:

LilyB

and entertain us you certainly did. Thanks :worthy: :flower:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by LilyB
David & I chose to do our lengthy aerials for one reason only - to entertain the audience. And you told me it was to show off!

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by LilyB
one of the reasons why David & I refrain from competing in the Blackpool Airsteps competition - having trained/helped a few of the competitors in that category, how would they feel if they had to compete against us?Um - honoured? :flower:


Originally posted by ChrisA
Well, FWIW, I believe there is a virtual category, not defined anywhere, membership of which is more restricted than the winners of any Open...

It contains those who have done so much, achieved so much, contributed so much, helped others so much, are generous with their time and resources, and are just generally such fantastic people...

... that whether they compete or not, win or not, they are the de facto cream of the cream.

Something like the "lifetime contribution to..." awards that you get in the music and film industries.

David and Lily would be in there, for my money.
:yeah: Except for one thing - you're only supposed to get the "lifetime contribution" award when you're "past it". On which note I hope D&L will not be receiving it for a long time yet...

:cheers:

Dave

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gadget
Why not have an 'invite' cattegory for all those 'superstars'? {named "By invitation", or "Superstars", or "Advanced Plus", or "stop-what-you-are-doing you-have-got-to-watch-this" or...}

I agree that you should only dance in one of the 'main' competitions; intermediate/advanced/open(/invite).

I also agree with the 'teaching' thing: it shouldn't influence the cattegories you enter.


I like Gadget's idea of inviting the best people to compete against each other. It would be like Jive Masters but all over in one day. The only downside is that the organisers couldn't really charge an entry fee for those people they 'invited'. But, as I see it, these invited stars would attract many more spectators.

However, I also like the idea of one big competition with a seeding round to sort out which category people should compete in.

All of the above assumes that the prime reason for the day is to find a winner. But I don't think that is the case. I get the impression that Mike Ellard sees the Ceroc Champs as a spectator event - otherwise he'd have had more consideration for the competitors than he showed on Sunday when he made us wait ages for our results:tears:

[Gareth]

IIRC, the Blackpool definition of a teacher is one that has taught MJ for money in the last two years. So if you teach for free you're probably entitled to enter the Blackpool intermediates!!

We sought clarification and was told in person that we fell in the advanced category.


Also, the only definition of a teacher I've seen from Ceroc is either someone CTA-trained, or someone that teaches regularly at a recognised MJ night. So technically you might qualify for the Advanced at the Ceroc champs too (and Intermediates, for that matter )

I wrote to seek clarification and I did`nt receive a reply. We are not Ceroc qualified teachers.

[Daisy]

However much we would like to be a big fish in a little pond there are times when you have to take a deep breath and jump into the deep end with the BIG BOYS & GIRLS!:sick:

Sure you have to work really hard to keep up and improve what you do but that's life.:tears:

We have had to do this all the way through our competition career (for want of a different term) and each time we have won or been placed we have moved up to the next catagory and 'bitten the bullet'.

We don't consider ourselves to be superstars and are never added to the list of aforemetioned 'superstars' that regularly gets mentioned on the Forum, but with true grit and effort we have managed, on our second attempt to reach the final of the Adv/Open at B/pool.

The higher you go the harder it is but if you want it bad enough thats what you have to do. I have had the Adv/Open conversation with C2D on several occasions over the past 2-3 years and nothing has changed so your not the first person to have tried. There is NO guarantee that it will change for 2005 so if you want my advice you will start practising now!

Jane & Ray
:flower:

[ElaineB]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Another thing I liked about the Ceroc champs in comparison with Blackpool was the fact that there were more rounds. Although it's more gruelling, the finer gradation means that it's possible to get a better measure of how well you do - even if you are up against superstars.

Just to illustrate, the intermediates at Blackpool were three rounds - 72 couples, 24, then 8.

At Ceroc there were 5 rounds - 60 couples, then 40, 30, 10, 5.

Getting to the semis at Blackpool happened in a blur after one track, and one track later it was all over. Whereas at Ceroc the excitement really built up for me during the rounds.

Oh I dunno, my comp experience is very limited - and I'm the first to see why I might have enjoyed the champs more than Blackpool :blush:

Maybe the differences between the comps is just part of the rich tapestry that is the MJ world. Ask me again in a year or so... :D

Chris

Hiya Chris!

Just thought I would correct you on one thing. We had two tracks to dance to in Blackpool.

Having danced at both, I feel that the Blackpool arrangement of only having eight couples dance at any one time is far better as it gives the Judges more time to see each of the partnerships, wheras at Hammersmith, in excess of twenty couples were judged at once.

As you know, Simon and I did not get past the first round at Hammersmith, despite being finalists and ultimately 6th at Blackpool. We assume that the reason was because we were meant to be in heat 1b, but were called into heat 1a, so were not marked. Others have voiced opinion that it may be simply because the Judges did not see us. If the latter reason is the case (in which case it must have happened to others as well), then it is only fair that there should be fewer people on the dance floor, so that the potential (or otherwise!) can be seen!.

I still do not believe that we deserved to be 'dumped' in the first round as I went on to achieve second place in DWAS (with dear Bill!:flower: ) and Simon went onto the third round with an inexperienced dancer!.

So, what went wrong? We felt we had danced well and were told by strangers, after we left the floor, that they had enjoyed our dancing, so (unless of course they were mad!), I can only assume that something went wrong.

IMHO therefore, there has to be an improvement either on the Admin or the numbers involved in each round has to be limited (or both!).

Didn't want to say all of this before, because of course it was personal to Simon and myself and I am a great believer in getting back up, dusting down and getting on with it!

So, get on with I will and hope to compete with you all again soon! :flower:

As for you Gareth me old flower, I think you and Jill deserved our full admiration for having the guts to compete in the Open! Don't know that I would have the courage!! :D


Elaine

[Gareth]

We don't consider ourselves to be superstars and are never added to the list of aforemetioned 'superstars' that regularly gets mentioned on the Forum,

I beg to differ Daisy, from where I`m standing both of you are "Superstars" . Jill and I are big fans of you both. You are definetely an inspiration to us.:worthy:

I accept that some times you just have to get on with it. But we were pushed into an area of competitive dance that we are not ready for. It goes without saying that we need to work hard to get to a level acceptable to our selves. At the moment we are a long way from this.:tears:


I think you and Jill deserved our full admiration for having the guts to compete in the Open

Thank you Elaine :kiss:

Did we jump or were we pushed? ;)

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by ElaineB
Just thought I would correct you on one thing. We had two tracks to dance to in Blackpool.:D You did in the final - Toxic and Slow, both fab tracks, but there was only one in the semi. There was a sort of warm up I suppose in the first round, but it was pretty short.

I distinctly remember our semi, cos it had an incredibly long, incredibly slow intro (at least a minute I would guess, maybe even more) and I was starting to worry that a proper rhythm would never kick in... :tears:


If the latter reason is the case (in which case it must have happened to others as well), then it is only fair that there should be fewer people on the dance floor, so that the potential (or otherwise!) can be seen!.Fair point. But I just can't believe that you would be that invisible. To cut down only from 60 couples to 40 in the first round must surely mean that in practice they're looking for people to eliminate that early in the comp. And as you say, you guys look good (and how can ANYONE miss that basque :wink: )


I still do not believe that we deserved to be 'dumped' in the first round
------ :yeah:



IMHO therefore, there has to be an improvement either on the Admin or the numbers involved in each round has to be limited (or both!).
Knowing what happened in the Lucky Dip, and knowing also the **** up that almost saw us in the wrong heat, my money would be on the former.

Franck/BillCo - you were judging the intermediates - how did it work? Did you have a pre-printed sheet of numbers for each heat? Would someone in the wrong heat therefore get completely ignored somehow????


So, get on with I will and hope to compete with you all again soon! :flower: Yeah, bring it on, baby... :cheers:

Chris

[Claire]

Originally posted by ElaineB
Simon went onto the third round with an inexperienced dancer

That was meeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!
:clap::clap::clap:

...and to just get into the second round was like having my own final so to get to the third was out of this world!

I have only just come back down to earth from planet dance!

So thank you Simon for making Sunday a wonderful day. I had sooooooooo much fun!

Elaine you are very lucky to dance with him fulltime and I am sorry that you both didn't make it further than you did.. you should have!

[Franck]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Franck/BillCo - you were judging the intermediates - how did it work? Did you have a pre-printed sheet of numbers for each heat? Would someone in the wrong heat therefore get completely ignored somehow???? Sorry Chris, just spotted the question.

All the judges wrote the numbers of the couples themselves, either during the warm-up track or as we went along, so being in the wrong heat would make no difference.

It is always difficult to explain why one couple doesn't get through, especially if you're watching them, and you think they are dancing great.
Judges spend the 3 minutes they have doing mostly two things:
1- noticing particularly spectacular examples of dancing (a nice move, an inspired piece of musical interpretation or costumes / presentation / smiles etc...)
2- marking down couples for mistakes (dancing off beat, missing catches or leads, poor presentation etc...)

The top couples will either make no mistakes and / or add lots of spectacular stuff to their dancing (not just dips / drops, but nice use of breaks etc...) or be very lucky that we see the good stuff and miss the bad.

Franck.

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by RobC
OK, here's a thought for filtering out the 'superstars': How about excluding any JiveMasters Final competitors ? By that, I don't mean the Finals in the Final, I mean anyone that got through the various Heats - about 20 or so couples.... This might work if it applies to the couples that got to the JM finals, but I wouldn't agree if it applied to those dancers if they were dancing with anyone who hadn't reached those finals.

In general I think having the Open category is the right thing to do, but I don't think it is fair to restrict teachers to that category, particularly if airsteps are allowed in that category. The most inspiring dancing I've seen hasn't included air steps, (or maybe just a couple of small ones - almost as an aside, moves which wouldn't even be classified as air steps under the C2D 2004 rules). The range of dance abilities amongst teachers is almost as wide as amongst their pupils, so they should be allowed to compete in other categories, though I'm not sure about teachers being allowed to enter Intermediate.

At Blackpool the situation is further complicated by having a separate air steps competition. (Does anyone who was at Hammersmith doubt David and Lily would win this one if they wanted too?) But I don't think this category is currently aimed at the real top competitors (apologies to those I've just offended!) I enjoy the spectacle of some of the amazing stuff these performers come up with, but I would also like to see the top performers doing it all on the ground!

I don't really agree with Chris when it comes to having more rounds in a competition (as at Hammersmith), OK it lets you know if you're progressing , but in some rounds only 5 or 6 couples were being eliminated, so getting through to the next round doesn't feel like much of a progression, whereas not getting through probably feels pretty bad, and much worse than if you know 2/3 of the competitors are in the same boat.

Greg

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by RobC
OK, here's a thought for filtering out the 'superstars': How about excluding any JiveMasters Final competitors ? By that, I don't mean the Finals in the Final, I mean anyone that got through the various Heats - about 20 or so couples.... This might work if it applies to the couples that got to the JM finals, but I wouldn't agree if it applied to those dancers if they were dancing with anyone who hadn't reached those finals.

In general I think having the Open category is the right thing to do, but I don't think it is fair to restrict teachers to that category, particularly if airsteps are allowed in that category. The most inspiring dancing I've seen hasn't included air steps, (or maybe just a couple of small ones - almost as an aside, moves which wouldn't even be classified as air steps under the C2D 2004 rules). The range of dance abilities amongst teachers is almost as wide as amongst their pupils, so they should be allowed to compete in other categories, though I'm not sure about teachers being allowed to enter Intermediate.

At Blackpool the situation is further complicated by having a separate air steps competition. (Does anyone who was at Hammersmith doubt David and Lily would win this one if they wanted too?) But I don't think this category is currently aimed at the real top competitors (apologies to those I've just offended!) I enjoy the spectacle of some of the amazing stuff these performers come up with, but I would also like to see the top performers doing it all on the ground!

I don't really agree with Chris when it comes to having more rounds in a competition (as at Hammersmith), OK it lets you know if you're progressing , but in some rounds only 5 or 6 couples were being eliminated, so getting through to the next round doesn't feel like much of a progression, whereas not getting through probably feels pretty bad, and much worse than if you know 2/3 of the competitors are in the same boat.

Greg

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
I don't really agree with Chris when it comes to having more rounds in a competition (as at Hammersmith), OK it lets you know if you're progressing , but in some rounds only 5 or 6 couples were being eliminated, so getting through to the next round doesn't feel like much of a progression, whereas not getting through probably feels pretty bad, and much worse than if you know 2/3 of the competitors are in the same boat.
I can see there are pros and cons, and it may just come down to the fact that there will always be differences between comps.

The number of competitors at Hammersmith decreased as follows across the rounds.

Intermediate: 60 - 40 - 30 - 10 - 5
Advanced: 20 - 15 - 10 - 5
Open: 21 - 10 - 5

So it was only in the Advanced that as few as 5 were eliminated before the semi final (at which point it's not unreasonable, surely).

This is a consequence of the number of entries more than anything else, AFAICS; I wonder why there were only 21 Advanced entrants, given that they were planning for 40.

As far as not getting through feeling bad is concerned, an inevitable consequence of a finer gradation is that you get a better idea of where in the entire set of entrants you come. Personally I'd rather know (like in the Blackpool semis) whether I only just missed the final, or only just scraped into the round - cos it gives you a better idea of how hard the mountain is to climb. But knowing the truth isn't always fun..

Chris

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by ChrisA
So it was only in the Advanced that as few as 5 were eliminated before the semi final Don't forget the Old Gits (OK I understand why you might be trying to) - first round only 5 eliminated. With so many rounds going on, I almost felt I was on that dance floor too often! I didn't have enough time to spectate, e.g. the only part of the Intermediate competition I saw was the final.

Greg

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Sheepman
Don't forget the Old Gits (OK I understand why you might be trying to) - first round only 5 eliminated.
...make the old gits work for it, I say :devil:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by ChrisA
...make the old gits work for it, I say :devil: Absolutely. Was discussing this with Erick...

Next year it's "Boogie Woogie Choo Choo Train" in the first round.

Followed by:

Zoot Suit Riot
Watch the Birdie
Mambo #5
Rubberneckin'
Wake me up before you go-go
Safronia B

In order to fit them all in, each round will have 2 of those tracks.

Ambulance services will be on standby....

Trampy

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Ambulance services will be on standby....
Why? :devil:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Ambulance services will be on standby.... To keep the costs down, we could just let them cough

[under par]

Originally posted by DavidB
To keep the costs down, we could just let them cough


Cough or croak?:what: :what:

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by TheTramp
it's "Boogie Woogie Choo Choo Train" in the first round.

Followed by:

Zoot Suit Riot
Watch the Birdie
Mambo #5
. . . :really: I can feel myself already starting to weaken over my plan not to go next year!

Greg

[Graham W]

..reminds me of a comp a while ago ...rd.1: - addicted to bass, semi : livin - loca (ricky martin) & 2nd track in final was ....shake yr tail feather! - boogie woogie train? ha, u had it ez!

G :-)

..by the way I think Blackpool would be better of doing what the other comps do & having an open category...

[Bill]

Originally posted by Sheepman
With so many rounds going on, I almost felt I was on that dance floor too often! I didn't have enough time to spectate, e.g. the only part of the Intermediate competition I saw was the final.

Greg

Know how you feel.......... :sick: :blush: Thanks entirely to Fran, Denise, Mary and Elaine ( all wonderful dancers) I think I was in 13 rounds, finishing off with BWCC Train :sick:

My usual count is more like 5 rounds in London and about 4 in Blackpool so I normally have plenty of time to watch eveyone else.

Think Trampy's list sounds great for next year :sick: :eek: Or is that his playlist for tomorrow night at Peterculter :na:

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by DavidB
To keep the costs down, we could just let them cough

:rofl: I wonder in laughing would have the same effect :rofl: :sick:

[Hillel]

Harking back to a by-gone age, the rule in Ceroc was always that the advanced comp excluded anyone receiving money to teach. It was tantamount to an amateur/professional split. In most sports, they compete separately (and certainly do in Ballroom). So why not in modern jive?

It makes it a very easy line to draw. Possibly unfair to non-superstar teachers, but every way has its advanatges and disadvanatges, and at least this is one of the easier ways to monitor. I agree, that may mean some teachers can't compete in a category right for them, but then that applies to lots of other people as well. More categories would solve that problem, but that's not really practical.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Next year it's "Boogie Woogie Choo Choo Train" in the first round.

Followed by:

Zoot Suit Riot
Watch the Birdie
Mambo #5
Rubberneckin'
Wake me up before you go-go
Safronia B


Bring it on:sick:

I think there should be a compulsory minimum of 5 air-steps per track as well:devil:

I must admit I could barely stand after Boogie Woogie Choo Choo Train but next year I'll be much fitter, and have a well defined six-pack, I'll be slimmer and a much better follower and while I'm in this fantasy world, can I enter with Kylie...

[TonyC2D]

Its very interesting reading all the comments and believe me, we do take them on board, we haven't looked at new cats for next year as yet, but an open is a distinct possibility, but we will need to come up with a format, so thank you for all your kind comments, if anyone has a reasonable suggestion for something different, please don't hesitate to email me directly imtony@ntlworld.com,
ps it was great to see many of you in Southport last weekend

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by TonyC2D
an open is a distinct possibility, but we will need to come up with a format, so thank you for all your kind comments, if anyone has a reasonable suggestion for something different
:clap: :cheers: :yeah:

Ok, how about this (it's all been said before, but to summarise one fairly prevalent point of view):

- bin the "no teacher" rules
- those placed at a lower category in a previous year at Blackpool or Hammersmith (or Britroc?) have to enter a higher category
- the more advanced of the couple determines the category
- enter one category only out of the main three:

- categories: Intermediate, Advanced, Open

My bet would be that :

- the vast majority of teachers that are any good wouldn't enter Intermediates out of a sense of fair play

- the superstars would enter Open anyway, since it wouldn't mean anything to them to beat the ones that are better than intermediates but not in their league.

So quite a good chance of good and fair comps at all levels I reckon.

Ok, probably some loopholes, maybe a bit too radical, but the playing field would be fairly level at each category.

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

:yeah:

Just one suggestion.

How about a "Perpetual Beginner" category for the Tramp:devil:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
How about a "Perpetual Beginner" category for the Tramp:devil: And let me guess. They play 'That Maverick' track in every round... :tears: :tears: :tears:

Trampy

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by TheTramp
And let me guess. They play 'That Maverick' track in every round... :tears: :tears: :tears: But you'd do so well, Trampy :flower:

[under par]

Originally posted by TheTramp
And let me guess. They play 'That Maverick' track in every round... :tears: :tears: :tears:

Trampy

Yes please. Just to see Trampy so happy:rofl: :rofl:

[ElaineB]

Originally posted by TheTramp
And let me guess. They play 'That Maverick' track in every round... :tears: :tears: :tears:

Trampy

You could always take up line dancing! :rofl:


Elaine :kiss:

[under par]

Originally posted by ElaineB
You could always take up line dancing! :rofl:


Elaine :kiss:


He already has yaken it up! He's just a beginner though!:whistle:

[under par]

Originally posted by under par
He already has yaken it up! He's just a beginner though!:whistle:

That should read "TAKEN" before all the wisecracks. :blush: