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Lou
17th-September-2002, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Dancing Veela
Last night/this morning - when I was lying awake at 4am for some reason, I was thinking about a new thread - are Ceroc clubs cliquey? But maybe you seniors (does being a senior member make you old Gus??????) have already covered this one in the past??????
Hi DV,

Can't comment on CEROC clubs, I'm afraid, but there are certainly a couple of LeRoc nights in Bristol which can get that way. I don't know why, but LeRoc2000's St Bon's class definitely has a reputation for being cliquey (which is odd, because their Yate class has the reputation of being the friendliest & most welcoming in the area).

It does tend to be the more experienced dancers who cause it, and it does create a bit of an atmosphere. I've heard people describe it as "moi-moi" (think air-kissing :wink: ), but I've been guilty of doing that on occasion!

John S
17th-September-2002, 01:47 PM
Some of us were discussing this topic last week in a post-ceroc ginger beer & lime session (so does that make us a clique anyway???)

What happens in practice is that if a group of people go to any club or society for long enough then they form friendships which carry over into the post-club activities. They don't think of themselves as a clique, but to someone new or for some reason outside that group they probably appear that way.

What shouldn't happen is that these friendships impinge on the ordinary class nights to the point where the friends will only dance with each other, to the exclusion of everyone else - then it is definitely a "clique".

I think there is a moral obligation on "senior" members at the ceroc classes to consciously seek out and dance with newcomers, not to intimidate them but to encourage them - that's how we all learned. (Not to say that the whole night has to be spent with beginners, because everyone's paid their money and is entitled to get some fun by dancing with their favourite partners, but we shouldn't leave it all to the Taxi Dancers - who do a great job in individual tuition, by the way, hope we all recognise that.)

Franck
17th-September-2002, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by John S
What shouldn't happen is that these friendships impinge on the ordinary class nights to the point where the friends will only dance with each other, to the exclusion of everyone else - then it is definitely a "clique".

I think there is a moral obligation on "senior" members at the ceroc classes to consciously seek out and dance with newcomers, not to intimidate them but to encourage them - that's how we all learned. I totally agree, the worst thing that can happen to any Ceroc night is an "exclusive" clique forming :sad:
Most of the fun of Ceroc is dancing with a broad variety of people, and the minute you only dance with "friends" then you lose half of the fun / challenges.
I am not aware of this happening in Scotland (I hope I'm right), and I hope we can keep our current reputation of being a friendly and welcoming lot!

I think that teachers and taxi-dancers (or any Ceroc Crew members) have a huge role to play, through leading by example!
It is very important that Ceroc teachers make a conscious effort to dance with new comers and Beginners as well as with more experienced dancers.

I am aware that this Forum is forming cliques of sort, but then again, the forum is open to anyone, and everyone is welcome, so don't be shy, join in, we won't bite! :nice:

Franck.

Debster
17th-September-2002, 04:52 PM
I think cliques can exist in the eye of the beholder too. It sometimes looks worse than it is.

I'll also add...
I try not to come across as part of a clique, but I have made so many friends now, and you tend to have a dance with each of them each night so I rarely get to take 3 steps towards someone new before I'm hooked by someone familiar. (Read this as my excuse, not a complaint;) )

On the other hand I have had shocking nights at Ceroc because no matter how hard I tried I didn't feel like I could break in to the exclusive circles. That's a fault of two particular venues in London that I am thinking of.

Bill
17th-September-2002, 05:11 PM
Agree with you Debster about some London clubs. Possibly because of the size of some of them I've found some clubs quite clique and very split between 'them' and 'us'.

We've mentioned this before but London is the only place I've been to where the so called 'good' dancers sit all together - often at the stage - and really only dance with each other.

In almost all other Ceroc and similar clubs I've been to people are very friendly and make me feel welcome. However, I have had some great dances in London and met some genuinely nice people:grin:

It's almost inevitable that after a while little groups will form as people meet and get on with certain folk but not se themselves as a clique. The shape of the venue can also help/hinder. At our first venue the seating meant that it was difficult to see everyone so people could get 'lost'. Some people sit in the same place each week while others move around but as long as people look happy and ensure new people are given plenty of dances then it should be fine. :D

It's always intimidating going to a new venue and a nice smiling venue manager and helpful taxi dancers really can help put you at ease. It just takes one good or bad dance early on to make or break the night :sick: so keep smiling and have fun.

Was thinking of getting to LOndon for a few days in October and enjoying all that London hospitality again :wink:

Debster
17th-September-2002, 05:25 PM
the so called 'good' dancers sit all together Who has time to sit?!!!:confused: :D

Gus
17th-September-2002, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by bill foreman

We've mentioned this before but London is the only place I've been to where the so called 'good' dancers sit all together - often at the stage - and really only dance with each other.

Its funny (sort of) but I remeber that during my time on the London circuit nearly all the clubs has an area that seemed to be informerly designeted for the 'top dancer' clique. At Crodon (huge venue) it used to be to the right of the stage at the front and it was very intimidating ... if you walked to that area to ask for a dance you felt like you were approaching the Gods and on the one time I did venture that far I was really made to feel I had overstepped myself ... so I spent the rest of the time dancing at the back left.

Someone earlier made a comment that its only natural for groups to form, and the more experienced dancers will naturally group together. Nantwich is a good example of this in that the main crew have traditionaly sat on a particular table at the back ... so all the beginners and intermediates know where to find them ... seems to work well ... mostly due to the attitude of the dancers there.

In short ... amid my ramblings ... I feel that GROUP forming is healthy and natural ... its when they progress to a non-welcoming CLIQUE that I think the franchisee may want to think about how to change things .... its cliques that can totaly destroy the feeling of a place and make new dancers less likely to come back.

DavidB
17th-September-2002, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by John S
I think there is a moral obligation on "senior" members at the ceroc classes to consciously seek out and dance with newcomersSorry - I don't agree. I don't think there should be any obligation on anyone coming to a freestyle to have to do anything.

Now of course if you never ask anyone for a dance, or always turn down invitations to dance, you aren't going to do very much in the evening. Alternatively if you are always on the floor, and never sit down, you will be very popular. If you only dance with certain people, it will limit your development as a dancer. But it is your personal choice what you do.

I almost always go out dancing with my wife. If the music is suitable we like doing Hustle and West Coast Swing as well as Ceroc - which means we dance together a lot. When it comes to Ceroc, I have a problem that I'm fairly quiet, and not very outgoing. I still find it difficult to ask complete strangers for a dance. So if my wife is dancing, I usually just ask ladies I know, or have just met in the class, or am sitting next to. That means that I don't dance every dance, which suits me fine - I also enjoy watching what other people do. I don't think this makes me cliquey (is that a word?), but it definitely makes me look like it. The difference is that I will dance with any lady that asks me, but even this isn't that noticable - I tend to get asked about once a night.

I know several people who will try to dance with everyone they can, and they will dance far more than me. But I don't see why they should tell me how many dances, and with whom, I should have every evening.

David

Gus
17th-September-2002, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Sorry - I don't agree. I don't think there should be any obligation on anyone coming to a freestyle to have to do anything.
David

Totaly agree with Dave. I've spent most of the last 3 yaers of dancing feeling oblidged to dance with everyone, especially beginners, even if I wasn't at a Ceroc venue. One day I asked myself WHY? OK .. ther is alwys the argument about "you were a beginner once" ... but I think I've more than served my time.

When I go freetsyling I want to enjoy myself and dance with ladies who I think I will enjoy dancing with. Thats not to say that I won't ask beginners or strangers to dance but just because I'm an experienced dancer doesn't mean that I should permenantly be 'on call' .... thats what (on duty) teachers and taxi dancers are for.

Dancing Veela
17th-September-2002, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Franck
I am not aware of this happening in Scotland (I hope I'm right), and I hope we can keep our current reputation of being a friendly and welcoming lot!

I think that teachers and taxi-dancers (or any Ceroc Crew members) have a huge role to play, through leading by example!
It is very important that Ceroc teachers make a conscious effort to dance with new comers and Beginners as well as with more experienced dancers.

Franck.

Franck - much as I hate to say it - there are Cliques in Scotland (maybe not in all clubs) which is what made me bring it up in the first place and I don't think the teachers always help the situation.

It's not just off-putting to beginners/new people it can also be very off-putting to those who have been going to a club for a long time. I think it's important that teachers dance with these long standing Cerocers as well as with beginners and those that are part of their clique. We don't all like having to go up to teachers to ask them to dance all the time - just once in a while we liked to be asked by the teacher (so that you feel the teacher WANTS to dance with you).

John S
17th-September-2002, 06:41 PM
OK, Gus and Dave B don't feel any obligation to dance with beginners and of course they are correct - they've paid their entrance money and they can dance with whoever they like.

I certainly don't have any right to impose my views on anyone else, so I was wrong to talk about a "moral" obligation as though I had some higher standards - that's definitely NOT the case mustn't go off-topic but I will continue to argue for my personal belief that I have to put something back for all the ladies whose arms I have pulled out of their sockets over the years and whose personal space I have invaded!

That was (at least partly) what this thread is about - if the more experienced dancers are reluctant / unwilling to dance with people they dont know, or with those they know not to be as good as themselves, then they are in danger of being perceived as elitist and a clique - even Gus apparently found that at one of the London venues mentioned.

Of course, the trouble with discussions like this is that people can be polarised into extreme positions they don't really hold - I certainly don't dance with beginners all night, and I'm sure (although I've never met either of them) both Gus and Dave B do their share of willingly dancing with ladies who aren't as proficient as themselves.

Jon
17th-September-2002, 06:59 PM
People do form groups at the venues but these tend to be with people of about the same ability, which is good as you progress and learn together. This results in this group becoming friends. My group now email/Text each other goto other venues togther. And we've even had a non dancing evening together!.

What we do not do is turn people down because we will only dance with good dancers. Thats not what Ceroc is about. We will all dance with anyone of any standard, after all spending time with people less experianced can be rewarding later on when they become more experianced. And it can be fun dancing with some one who doesn't know what move you will do next.

Of course there are people that given the choice we'd rather not dance with but we would never turn down a dance from anyone as being refused can really effect your confidence. I know it happened to me when I was a beginner. Even now a year on I sometimes get turned down when I goto a venue I don't usually go to (namely central London ones). And it annoys me but then I think it's their loss. On one occasion I was turned down then the lady saw me dancing then asked me to dance, so I said no. Thats the only time I've refused someone, but she deserved it.

The thing that really bugs me is when the TEACHER does not dance in the freestyle. It really makes a beginners night having a dance with the teacher. This doesn't happen much but one particular venue which will not remain nameless '[B]Welling', has a teacher who after the class sits at her regular table in the corner surrounded by her usual friends. This is not being approachable is it? What I like is the teachers to actively seek out those people who are not dancing and get them onto the dance floor.

At my regular venue the teacher her demo the taxi dancers and even the dj dance the entire evening and what an atmosphere it creates.[END MOAN]

Stevie
17th-September-2002, 06:59 PM
Well Lou; really it depends on who goes to dancing and the turnover of people picking it up against those not comming back. I guess a bit too much of either of these things could creat cliques.

So far I know ceroc_Edinburgh can be clique-y but in dundee thats certainly not the case. I cant imagine bristol being clique-y but then wheres it being held ? - for exapmle were it in Clifton Id expect it to be full of students yet to develope social graces or some toffs who will be measuring us up to see if we were worth knowing by our background (schooling or locality).

Ofcourse were I to encounter any cliques (anywhere not just maybe at ceroc) I'd just barge right in to them and scatter them asunder like pins at the bowling.

And remeber ultimatly its about the dancing and having fun so besure to take yourself of to ceroc in the right fame of mind from the outset and dont lett tossers get you down....far better to laugh at them with their narrowness as they cut their own noses off spiting their own faces. Just metally be giving any people in cliques who arent wellcomming to you the two fingers plus a big raspberry...its their loss.

Now i must admit im guilt of the moi..moi things but only with the members older (as usually it doesnt get misunderstood by them) than me....simply a greeting. But, I even managed to fail to kiss some lass on the cheek but caught her full on the lips...wooops.

Just another bizzar night....and a good laugh at the dancing...

have fun.

s.

Gus
18th-September-2002, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by John S

if the more experienced dancers are reluctant / unwilling to dance with people they dont know, or with those they know not to be as good as themselves, then they are in danger of being perceived as elitist and a clique

Hmmmmm ..... question for you then ... if the experienced dancers are busy dancing with the beginners ... who is busy dancing with the more advanced dancers?

The reason I make thjis piont is that I realised (back in those heady days of being a franchisee) was that with all our focus on nurse-maiding beginners, we were neglecting our intermediates and advanced. So .... what we did was off duty crew were encouraged NOT to dance with beginners but to get the more adnaced dancers busy and happy ..... Again, when the likes of Viktor comes to your club, he is more than happy to dance with begineers ('cause he is an absolute gent) but as a franchisee I want hime dancving and thus encouraging/developing my advanced dancers.

I will always take time, no matter what venue I'm at, to dance with beginners ... but if its in my time I want to dnace with dancers who are going to make me feel good (selfish maybe but dance is one of the few pleasures which is readily accesible to me:devil: ). If I go to a venue where they're a bit short of men, am I doing more of service dancing with beginners or trying to dance with the more intermediate dancers who havn't had that many dances? Answers on the back of a postcard plesae.

OH ... and re Dave ... when he was at Nantwich, he proved himself to be a real gent and gave all my more advanced dancers a run for their money!

Franck
18th-September-2002, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by Gus
I will always take time, no matter what venue I'm at, to dance with beginners ... but if its in my time I want to dnace with dancers who are going to make me feel good Indeed, except for me, they often end up being one and the same! :nice:
All in all, as long as we keep dancing as much as possible and do not turn down anyone (at least not based on their level / experience of dancing), it does not matter whom we dance with...

I agree with you Jon, the teacher should dance as much as possible... We are all allowed 'off-nights' but in general, again, we should lead by example and keep the dance floor busy!

Dancing Veela, I am sorry to hear you have experienced Cliques in Scottish venues (that and no 'sexy men :really: :sad: ), my experience is that typically everyone will always accept a dance with anyone else if asked, though I am sure there are groups that like to hang out together. This might appear as a clique to a new comer, but they usually realise after a few weeks that all the 'Clique members' are very happy to dance with them! :nice:

Franck.

Dancing Veela
18th-September-2002, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Franck
Dancing Veela, I am sorry to hear you have experienced Cliques in Scottish venues (that and no 'sexy men :really: :sad: ), my experience is that typically everyone will always accept a dance with anyone else if asked, though I am sure there are groups that like to hang out together. This might appear as a clique to a new comer, but they usually realise after a few weeks that all the 'Clique members' are very happy to dance with them! :nice:

Franck. Franck, I'm not talking about groups that like to hang out together when I mention cliques - that's totally different!!

'Clique members' will dance with you when you ask them - but they don't always look like they are enjoying it (and I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't enjoy dancing with me:what: :really: ) and sometimes a woman gets fed up doing all the asking

Stevie
18th-September-2002, 11:14 AM
Clique members - lets get this right, your moaning about good dancer not enjoying the dancing with a beginner. So what!. Big deal.

Firstly there are loads of other people to dance with...why ask someone who youve experienced doesnt enjot it.

Nobody HAS to dance with anyone. Nobody has to do anything they dont like. When asked for a dance it is curtious to accept.

You then go on to moan about having to ask blokes to dance - well so what and get used to it...just do it. If your then bemoaning about having asked someone for a dance who goes on not to be enjoying it youve simply asked the wrong person - thats life. Ask someone else.


Dont be bashful - its just a dance.

Question then: Do you only enjoy the dancing when you are dancing with someone who is an expert?

DavidB
18th-September-2002, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Stevie
Question then: Do you only enjoy the dancing when you are dancing with someone who is an expert? No - I actually find it intimidating to dance with a really good lady. I sometimes try too hard to do too many moves, and don't relax.

David

filthycute
18th-September-2002, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by Stevie

Question then: Do you only enjoy the dancing when you are dancing with someone who is an expert?


Not in the slighest!! It's not that i don't enjoy dancing with them but i tend to get a little tense. Especially if it's someone you haven't danced with before. Maybe it's just me but i've came off the dance floor a few times after having danced with experienced men feeling a little deflated and questioning my dancing abilities. And paranoia sets in! :what:

but thats probably just me :sick:

filthycute MAd.x x

Gus
18th-September-2002, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by filthycute



Not in the slighest!! It's not that i don't enjoy dancing with them but i tend to get a little tense. Especially if it's someone you haven't danced with before. Maybe it's just me but i've came off the dance floor a few times after having danced with experienced men feeling a little deflated and questioning my dancing abilities. And paranoia sets in! :what:

but thats probably just me :sick:

filthycute MAd.x x

Nahhh not just you ... I STILL get nervous dancing with Lyudia, and she is one of the most accomodating ladies on the circuit ... I meant that DANCE WISE you filthy minded beasts.

A bit like Dave's point above ... tend to try to hard!

John S
18th-September-2002, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
No - I actually find it intimidating to dance with a really good lady. I sometimes try too hard to do too many moves, and don't relax.

David

I can certainly identify with that - it's probably the ego thing, got to show how good I really am etc, got to rummage through portfolio of half-forgotten moves, result I get tensed up, keep doing yo-yos and come off the dance floor thinking what a prat she must think I am.
:sad:

And I know it's only a dance - but it doesn't help!!!:tears:

Graham
18th-September-2002, 01:32 PM
Perhaps I'm sitting on the fence, but I find myself agreeing with both sides in this debate, so I'm going to attempt a Third Way :wink: .

I agree that the whole point of Ceroc is fun, and that on a freestyle night, you are free to dance with whomever makes it fun for you, be they beginners, advanced dancers, or a few special friends.

However, Ceroc is a social event, and those of us who want it to continue and grow so we can have fun in the future need to face the fact that it needs a constant influx of new members. There is therefore a practical (but not moral) obligation which arises on us to make the clubs seem welcoming to newcomers (who will be predominantly but not exclusively beginners).

It is up to each of us to decide what (if anything) we do to contribute to the welcome.

I personally never refuse a dance if asked - I know how discouraging this can be, as it is pretty much implying that the other person is not good enough (even worse you could explicitly state what you don't like about them!! :really: ).

I also try to dance with a couple of people I don't know or rarely dance with. Possibly more than a couple if I go to the quieter of the two Glasgow classes.

I don't always arrive in time, but when I do I take part in the beginner's class unless there is a surplus of men. This is partly so that any beginners I have already spoken to will feel less awkward about asking me for a dance later, but also because it gives me a chance to improve my own style (!), and in particular my leading skills, as I find that beginners are usually much better at highlighting weaknesses than more experienced dancers, who tend to compensate for them.

To echo someone's earlier point, what seems to us like merely hanging out near a few friends can seem very cliquey to newcomers, but it doesn't mean we have to spend our night dancing with beginners. You can say hello, smile, dance if asked, all of which will dispel the cliquey image.

Anyway, thanks for allowing me this opportunity to set out my policy. :grin:

Dancing Veela
18th-September-2002, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Stevie
Clique members - lets get this right, your moaning about good dancer not enjoying the dancing with a beginner. So what!. Big deal.Ok Stevie - calm down a bit!!!!

To start with - you didn't get me right at all - I wasn't moaning about a good dancer not enjoying dancing with a beginner - I'm talking about a good dancer or good dancers deciding that they are better than other people whether they are or not - I'm no beginner and I'm not that bad a dancer!!!!!
Originally posted by Stevie
Firstly there are loads of other people to dance with...why ask someone who youve experienced doesnt enjot it.

Nobody HAS to dance with anyone. Nobody has to do anything they dont like. When asked for a dance it is curtious to accept. Well to correct you on this - as a woman there are not always loads of other people to dance with - quite often you look around the room and find the only option (if you really want to dance to your favourite track which has just come on) is to either ask another woman to dance or pluck up the courage to ask the teacher or a man who you know doesn't give you any encouragement when you do dance with him. You are however quite correct - nobody has to dance with anyone - and I've never had a man refuse me a dance without following it up with - not this one - how about the next - which is fine. But if you do accept a dance request from me - please could you try to look like you are enjoying it - and not look as if you were wishing you were dancing with someone else???????
Originally posted by Stevie
You then go on to moan about having to ask blokes to dance - well so what and get used to it...just do it. If your then bemoaning about having asked someone for a dance who goes on not to be enjoying it youve simply asked the wrong person - thats life. Ask someone else.
Dont be bashful - its just a dance.I don't think I've ever been called bashful in my life (and I've asked men to dance long before I started Ceroc) - but do stop to think how hard it is for some beginner women to do that asking - they've been brought up in a world/time where men do all the asking - imagine then that they've plucked up enough courage to ask someone to dance and that person looks grumpy through the whole dance - it's not pleasant and it's very off-putting to that beginner!
Originally posted by Stevie
Question then: Do you only enjoy the dancing when you are dancing with someone who is an expert? No - and when a beginner asks me to dance I will always dance with them and smile throughout the dance but do I enjoy dancing more with an expert - yes very much so (well ok I get that mess every step up thing that other people already mentioned) - but if I'm not nervous with the expert then yes I do enjoy it - and how will I get any better (as if I could :devil: :what: :really:) if I don't get the chance to dance with people who are better than me?

Stevie
18th-September-2002, 03:12 PM
hI VEELA;

Sorry dont see your point. Your insisting that someone smiles when dancing with you...Infact that everyone you dance with should smile and look attentive to you. Some kinda lunatic your after? Im bemused?

You cant please everyone - its the same when dancing. By going dancing certainly youve screened out many people who would not look happy dancing. But that doesnt mean they're going to smile and be attentive. Whilst smiling and being attentive may be polite, not everyone is. Thats all.

And if someone is being a tosser and not being polite or being grumpy then accidently scrape their shinns. Or better still poke them in the eye when they are doing a spin or something...not than im advocating violence ofcourse but accidents do happen.

Most of all however - just stop worrying about it, either stop dancing with the creep or treat the dance as a learning session.

Find someone who is happy to dance with you (at your level)...Im sure youll enjoy it better and then not be feeling like youve got a permenet rain cloud over your head.

Dancing ment to be fun; Lifes too too short not be having fun - so why put yourself through some kind of mental torture?

Blank the tosser and move on..........................

Dancing Veela
18th-September-2002, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Stevie
hI VEELA;

Sorry dont see your point. Your insisting that someone smiles when dancing with you...Infact that everyone you dance with should smile and look attentive to you. Some kinda lunatic your after? Im bemused?


no lunatic - just someone polite just as you mention later in your reply - but yes I guess you are right - not everyone is polite.

As for blanking the tosser(s) - it's easier said than done for a woman - we really don't have the choice that you men do - i.e. there are far more good women for you to dance with than there are good men for us to dance with (or indeed just more women than men for you to choose from altogether!!!!).

But one hypothetical question - what if the teacher was the tosser????????

I don't let it worry me - I go to Ceroc and just avoid the cliques altogether - I just thought it was a subject worth bringing up as I've heard it discussed before in a club.

Believe me I am glad to read from the forum that it isn't a problem in Scottish Clubs.

Emma
18th-September-2002, 04:51 PM
There are cliquey clubs and cliquey people, but I think it's usually possible to work out fairly quickly who those people are - and avoid them. I don't want to dance with someone who only wants to dance with certain people, however good he is.

I've found that going to new venues can be hard at first, simply because I don't actually like approaching people I don't know. (I've mostly only danced at London venues cos that's where I live). After about three weeks of classes though you get to know a few people and it gets easier to ask. Once on the dancefloor it seems to be easier to get another dance. I hate that waiting by the edge thing when I start dancing at a new venue, it's like waiting to see if you're going to be picked for the team or not. Stevie I think you're underestimating how strong the conditioning of waiting for the man to ask you is for many women. It takes a while to get over (and a drink helps, I find!):wink:

Veela, I've had the experience of someone looking over my shoulder past me when they've been dancing with me, in fact it almost ruined the championships for me when I had only been dancing for 6 weeks and was very nervous about asking people to dance. (Actually he asked me how long I'd been dancing before he deigned to lead me onto the floor too). It's a horrible experience, and most of the women I know have at least one similar story. Thank goodness that sort of tosser is a rare thing at Ceroc. :cheers:

As for making a definite effort to dance with beginners or new people, I do think I have a debt to pay as I wouldn't have got to enjoy dancing as much as I do now had it not been for the lovely people who made an effort ask me to dance when I was just starting out - but I don't feel I have to repay that debt every single time I go out dancing.

Lou
18th-September-2002, 04:52 PM
If your hypothetical teacher's a hypothetical tosser - vote with your hypothetical feet & go to a different hypothetical class! :grin: :wink: :yum:

*winks at DV*

CJ
18th-September-2002, 04:58 PM
Not looking forward to a quiet class tonight then:D :D :D :D

Lou
18th-September-2002, 05:06 PM
Emma - your story struck a chord - I remember a similar thing happening to me when I was a mere newbie.

I like to think I help out beginners as much as I can - I will ask them to dance & try to help them with their moves. I even privately tutored one for a bit (no smutty thoughts, peeps! It wasn't like that!). But as I do go to classes on my own (hubby doesn't dance), I have no regular partner, I like to try & get a few dances in with more experienced dancers too! :grin:

I actually like going to new classes, although, you're right, it is hard to approach people you don't know. I went to John Eastman's class a couple of weeks back, hung around the sidelines for a bit like Billy Wallflower Nomates, but finally plucked up enough courage to ask a chap to dance. One dance followed another & I found myself dancing with a lovely chap called Stuart & actually got that connection that Rachel was talking about - with a complete stranger! Bizarre, isn't it, that you can just dance so well with someone the first time?

filthycute
18th-September-2002, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Emma

As for making a definite effort to dance with beginners or new people, I do think I have a debt to pay as I wouldn't have got to enjoy dancing as much as I do now had it not been for the lovely people who made an effort ask me to dance when I was just starting out - but I don't feel I have to repay that debt every single time I go out dancing.

I just found out today from a guy at my class, that he's scared of me :tears: :tears: Now i'm not too sure how many men i have that effect on but it's not a great feeling to be told that. Have now made it my mission to actively hunt down this scaredy cat and make him dance with me until i scare the fear out of him! :devil: I remember being the less experienced (still am!) dancer and not having loads of confidence to ask people to dance. You fastly realise that NO ONE! is too good to dance with you. I'm not saying your not gonna come off the floor feeling a bit twatish (see other thread) I still do that all the time. But whats the other option? Sit gawping at them dancing and thinking about what it would be like to dance with them???

So boyo! you know who you are....I know who you are....buckle up and be afraid :devil: :wink:

filthycute MAd. x x <<<<< do you think i was born with this name?? nope! years of practise matey :wink:

Dancing Veela
18th-September-2002, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by Lou
If your teacher's a tosser - vote with your feet & go to a different class! :grin: :wink: :yum:

I didn't say MY teacher was a tosser - that's why I said 'hypothetically'

Anyway, going to a different class isn't such an easy option in Scotland - not without driving for about an hour

Bill
18th-September-2002, 05:27 PM
still haven't figured out how to do this quote thing !!!!!!!!:mad:

but..........as everyone says, a clique is more about a group of dancers who only stick together and dance together. However cliquey (sic) a group might be they may well be delighted to dance with as many people as possible and I think mosty of us can tell the difference.

But if you are new to a venue it can appear as if everyone knows each other and you are the only new person and you'll spend the night alone :(

As others have said, it is very much the responsibility of the teacher and the crew to make people welcome and to lead by example by dancing with as many people as possible. In most venues I've been to this is the case - but not all :( If the teacher doesn't circulate and dance with new members - and even other regulars he/she could help instil a feeling of 'them' and 'us' which is not healthy.

And it clearly is more difficult for women both because of culture, upbringing, 'conditioning' and the fact that there are usually more women than men at venues so grabbing any man - however good he is can be difficult.

But it's not just women who can be nervous. Every time I go to a new venue I feel really scared :sick: .....usually shake and then worry until I get several dances under my belt. Now that I know folk in other venues it really does help seeing a familiar face and knowing I'll have a couple of dances at least !:D

So.......... smile, enjoy each dance, feel the music and have fun:wink:

Gus
18th-September-2002, 05:42 PM
Think Stevie has a perfect right to his view ... BUT, don't think it really conforms to the ettiquette of Ceroc.:sad:

Ceroc is a social dance and with that there are social rules. The main one is that dance for the pleasure of each other. In the rare occaisions that the partner does not reciprocate, fair enough.... thank them for the dance and move on ... but MOST dancers make your time on the dance floor a plesaure.

As to the argument about dancing with beginners ... two point;

1) There is the element of putting something back. We all got to where we are by the attention and coaching from more experienced dancers. It is 'manners' to pass that favour on. I've been dancing for 5 years plus, yet I will ALWAYS make sure I dance with a few beginners. If stars like Viktor do it, it would be absolutely churlish for someone down at my level not to.

2) Whats wrong with beginners??? Many of them,once they've relaxed can dance the basic stpes fine and certainly well enough to make the dance enjoyable. Ceroc dancing is NOT about throwing in as many complex moves as possible

At the end of the day, I go to a freestyle to enjoy my dancing, that does not neccesarily mean dancing with the most advanced dancers .... going back to another thread, it can be more about someone you 'click' with and is in tune to the moves you do ....

Please lets not forget that it sjust a dance, a social dance ... sometime all the talk of competition and advanced moves blinds us to what makes Ceroc/Modern Jive special ... its a nice easy way to dance, meet new people and collectivly act in a civilised and sociable way. Long may it contnue!:grin:

Here endeth the sermon according to Gus

John S
18th-September-2002, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by bill foreman
still haven't figured out how to do this quote thing !!!!!!!!:mad:


For years in Ceroc I've dreamed of being able to do something (nay, anything) better than Bill - and at last my moment has come!!

Point and click, my son, point and click!!


Under the post you want to quote from, you'll see an icon called "Quote".

Click on it, and the whole post will appear in the box you're using to write your own message.

Delete the bits you don't want to include, but be careful you don't delete the formatting commands "B" "QUOTE" at the beginning, and "/B" "/QUOTE" at the end (they'll be in square brackets but I can't use them in this post or they will format it all wrong.)

Next thing you'll be asking is how to do colours!!!

Sandy
19th-September-2002, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by John S



Point and click, my son, point and click!!

Next thing you'll be asking is how to do colours!!!

Brilliant John, I've been stuck with this as well and so glad to know I'm not alone in this!:grin:

Cheers

Sandy

Sandy
19th-September-2002, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by filthycute



Not in the slighest!! It's not that i don't enjoy dancing with them but i tend to get a little tense. Especially if it's someone you haven't danced with before. Maybe it's just me but i've came off the dance floor a few times after having danced with experienced men feeling a little deflated and questioning my dancing abilities. And paranoia sets in! :what:

but thats probably just me :sick:

filthycute MAd.x x


Me too! and the more nervous I get the worse I dance, that's when i escape for a drink for dutch courage!

I tend to look for dancers I feel comfortable with and also guys who are a good lead. I still think of myself as a beginner and for that reason don't tend to look for real beginners to dance with - something I am going to do now that I have thought about it and think I could have something to offer them (very basic moves maybe!) - an awful lot is down to confidence but then one day you think you can dance with the best of them and the next as if you were a Clydesdale horse!:tears: On a good night however there is nothing better than dancing with someone with lots of experience and a sexy mover to boot (you know who you are and I hope a few dances will be saved for me at the party :wink: )

Cheers

Sandy

Dancing Veela
19th-September-2002, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by Gus

2) Whats wrong with beginners??? Many of them,once they've relaxed can dance the basic stpes fine and certainly well enough to make the dance enjoyable. Ceroc dancing is NOT about throwing in as many complex moves as possible


Here endeth the sermon according to Gus

Dear Reverend Gus,

it's all very well for the men to ask 'what's wrong with beginners???' - but if a man is a complete beginner (some) of them don't have the basic steps and you don't really get a dance with them - a good man can lead a beginner lady fairly easily (although having said that, I've taxied as a man in the past and some beginner ladies are tough going too - oh but maybe that's because I'm not a good man????? Hadn't thought of that :sad: ).

Anyway, I don't let it stop me dancing with beginners, it can be fun trying to help them out (especially if they are cute :yum: ) but quite often an experienced woman with a beginner man is not really enjoyable.

Gus
19th-September-2002, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by Dancing Veela

but quite often an experienced woman with a beginner man is not really enjoyable.

ahhhh .. that takes me back to my first youthfull experieneces ...:sorry :sorry

Anyway ... back to dance .... quite true, its easier for a beginner woman to be led than a beginner man...... sorry, thats just the way it is! I think its absolutely vital for beginner blokes to be frogmarched to the next available beginners workshop. The Ceroc teaching model is a marvel BUT teaching new men, especially those with no previous dance exeperienece or capability, can fall by the wayside. The Cerocshops are excellent at getting them through the first painfull months!

If someone had 'taken me in hand' when I first started I'm sure I would have improved far quicker!:wink:

Bill
19th-September-2002, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by John S


For years in Ceroc I've dreamed of being able to do something (nay, anything) better than Bill - and at last my moment has come!!

Point and click, my son, point and click!!


So did it work ???????????????/

Next thing you'll be asking is how to do colours!!! :confused: eh......... well !!!!!:sorry

Listen I can shuffle about on the dance floor but when it comes to computers I haven't a clue. My computer at home has been 'down' for about 2 months and I'm in constant dialogue with the company through email at work but still can't get it to work.:mad:

As for dancing with beginners - yep it can be great fun and as Gus says the whole point of Ceroc is not to make everyone a Viktor ( well no chance of that !!:tears: ) but to have fun and meet people. The fact that we can travel round the country and just pop in to Bristol, Northampton, London, Leeds, Newcastele etc.. is wonderful and I'd certainly never go to a club ( are they still called discos ??) on my own.

It's great just to vary the night by making sure you dance with some new people and with some dancers for as someone else pointed out what happens to the 'regulars' if everyone dances with the beginners ?

I remember one woman in Dundee a couple of years ago who bemoaned the fact that most of the men did dance with new women ( usually a good and polite thing to do) but this meant she rarely got a dance and felt that she was chasing men for a dance for the whole night.

So getting the balance is sometimes difficult. There are women in Aberdeen I feel I haven't danced with for ages and not because I don't want to but we now have approx 100 people at both nights so about 60 women so it's physically impossible to dance with everyone in one night.......or even over several nights
:sad:

Ah well......back you Rev Gus ? Any more words of wisdom????:waycool:

filthycute
19th-September-2002, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by filthycute


I just found out today from a guy at my class, that he's scared of me :tears: :tears:

Even after some "gentle" coaxing it seems this fella is still terrified of me :tears: I did manage to get half a dance.....eventually!!! that was after i spent half the night chasing him and he spent half the night hiding from me!!! :what:
Even in the pub afterwards....i don't think he could have sat further away from me if he tried!!! :really:
Ok guys (John, Gus,Franck..anyone!) i'm expecting some back up here....whats the problem????? John didn't seem scared in the slightest of dancing with me last night. Maybe he likes dancing with the devil? :devil: :wink:

ok some tips please....how do come across as less frightening?? Am i beyond help :sick:

filthycute MAd. x x

John S
19th-September-2002, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Dancing Veela


some beginner ladies are tough going too

Yep!!!!! Although I danced with one young lady last night at Dundee, her first time there, and she was brilliant - at the end of the beginners lesson she was able to more or less follow me in the freestyle dance with a lot more than just the beginners' moves. Well done Shona (or Shonagh or Seonaid or whatever). Of course her dad comes to Ceroc, so maybe it's in the genes!


quite often an experienced woman with a beginner man is not really enjoyable.

That's a two-way street. My own experience as a "beginner man" (Can we have a different name, PLEASE) was that for several weeks I really didn't enjoy the personal humiliation of being unable to remember the moves, or if I did remember them, my arms and feet wouldn't respond. It was an effort of will to keep going, and I was really embarrassed to dance with "experienced women" (Can we stick with this name, PLEASE) when I knew how good they were and how crap I was.

So often I actually PREFERRED to dance with ladies who were at roughly the same level of incompetence as me, since I didn't then feel pulled out of my comfort zone.

Gus' suggestion of the Beginners' Workshop is spot on - it certainly helped me.:cheers:

John S
19th-September-2002, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by filthycute



Ok guys (John, Gus,Franck..anyone!) i'm expecting some back up here....whats the problem????? John didn't seem scared in the slightest of dancing with me last night. Maybe he likes dancing with the devil? :devil: :wink:

ok some tips please....how do come across as less frightening?? Am i beyond help :sick:

filthycute MAd. x x

Fact is, you are just such a brilliant and expressive dancer that you are going to outshine the guy, which will damage his poor little self-esteem unless
(a) he's equally good - not many of them around,
(b)he has an ego the size of Texas - OK, there are quite a few of them or
(c)he's too old to care and is happy to bask in your reflected glory - that's where I fit in!:nice:

As I put in another posting, I used to be really embarrassed to dance with a lady who I knew to be much better than me, and my brain still sometimes freezes up in that situation, even with you, and you know how much i enjoy dancing with you. It's just a man-thing, learn to live with it. Just remember how fragile our egos are, and be complimentary when we manage to use the correct hand to do a yo-yo. Even gush a bit about how much you enjoyed the dance - you know, fake it - men are suckers for that sort of thing!:wink:

filthycute
19th-September-2002, 11:59 AM
Ok i think the plan is to go back to basics. I normally do the beginners class as man. Nice way to get to know the women but not men :sick: will do beginners class as lady next week and hope men will see me as the sweet angelic girl i am:innocent:, therefore encouraging the scardey men to come dance with me :D
Originally posted by John S
you know, fake it - men are suckers for that sort of thing!:wink: Tell me something i don't know :wink:

You know your a wonderful dancer John and we always have great fun :D (that was real) :wink:

filthycute MAd. x x

DavidB
19th-September-2002, 12:13 PM
Ok Some men don't like spending all night every night night looking (or feeling obliged to look) for new ladies to dance with
Many ladies feel uncomfortable asking men to dance
If you just dance with people you know, you look like you've formed a clique
Many people want to dance with someone better than they are, but worry about how they danceWhatever the reason, it ends up with some people not dancing as often as they might like, or not managing to dance with who they want to.

Any ideas.

David

Sandy
19th-September-2002, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Ok *Some men don't like spending all night every night night looking (or feeling obliged to look) for new ladies to dance with
Then don't! If you don't want to the lady will sense it and feel bad about herself!
* Many ladies feel uncomfortable asking men to danceYep can be difficult but it is perfectly acceptable for ladies to ask guys so grab a drink, take a deep breath and go for it girl!
* If you just dance with people you know, you look like you've formed a clique Only if you stay with the same people all night. A bit of both - old friends, new acquaintances
* Many people want to dance with someone better than they are, but worry about how they danceI suppose to improve you have to dance with better dancers - again drink and then go for it (do you think I have a problem!)
Whatever the reason, it ends up with some people not dancing as often as they might like, or not managing to dance with who they want to. David. Buy a good pair of trainers and run as fast as you can to get THAT person you want to dance with!
Any ideas. I know I might sound flippant but if you want it you have to go for it. It can be so embarrassing (especially if someone gets there before you - another trip to the toilet!) but it is worth it.

What I worry about is "What if he really doesn't want to dance with me?" - I guess it's the chance you take. I've stopped asking for a dance while a guy is having a drink or in a deep conversation - i suppose it is a bit much to do that and as the guys are outnumbered most of the time they must be shattered and just gasping for a drink and a break!

Dance addict

Cheers

Sandy:wink:

PS sure I've not mastered quote thing yet, frightened to look - Franck HELP if it looks all wrong!

Stevie
19th-September-2002, 12:35 PM
Encoraging the scardey men. Hmm ha Hmmm..welll. You dogmatically saught me out last night. Very scary. And you were very wellcomming to dance with...Unfortunatly 'de' got to me defore i had the 'warm up girls' revise my dance moves and defore they help me remember some and yes she (d) looked quite borred and began leading and stopped smiling. Did little for the ego ofcourse and just reinforced my thoughts that its better to play in your own league sometimes. Im not gripping - just was not able to impress.

My question i thought...and you know how to dance the mens part well. You therfore know it is the blokes that are thinking of what moves to do next. If Im dancing with an expert it is this part of the jigsaw im needing melp with, then geting on to the right hand to lead the move, once the move is started thats the easy bit, then its back to slotting in another move...How can an expert in the ladies role help the bloke through this? I just dont get it - if your being an expert at being led then really for me this isnt as helpful as someone saying - 'wait, try this'....

What do you think?

And thanks for the dance enjoyed it very much.

Id like to see the teacher showing the hand signals and motions that the blokes need to do made much more obvious. This will help the leading 10 fold. I have seen it done more clearly -it was shown to me much better when i got it damonstraited by, was it george (but anyway), at a workshop.

anyways back to work............................

Stevie
19th-September-2002, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by filthycute


how do come across as less frightening??

filthycute MAd. x x

You managed to get less than half a dance...Well i thought it was okay...look at it from my point of view. Your wanting later in the night to finish on a high dancing with good dancers, after most of the novices have booggered off........

Im a beginner but i want to impress too........So if i dance with you first off in the evening then you'd only get beginners moves as it takes a little time for me to remeber the better moves i have learned and how to get them started.

Now my report card form D. would be poor - she danced with me first and was obviously not impressed (and nothing wrong with that - just how it can be). You got me latter and id five better moves that i could do and so got a report card saying 'could do better'. (yes so five more moves than D no wonder she (D) was fed up).

The solution that would help me would be to say 'try this' and pull me through it then repeat....Ill get better quicker that was and become able to impress.

And i my deffence; As for sitting far from you in the pub.......get their ealier...sit where you want. Ofcourse if im first in the pub and knowing the numbers that may turn up ofcourse im going to sit in the most ackward seat/place (at the far corner) - thats me just being polite and helpful for other. Far easier to sit in the ackwards seat than to have loads of peaple brushing their bums in your nose trying to get to that seat.

And besides I thanked you very much at the end of the night for dancing and even thought to ask you outwith the group on sat (but you were going to aberdeen) - Were I scared actually of you i wouldnt have mentioned anything at all.......

Do the 'try this one' routine it may work..................

nad many thanx for the dance. It was a pleasure.

:)

Graham
19th-September-2002, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Dancing Veela

I've taxied as a man in the past and some beginner ladies are tough going too - oh but maybe that's because I'm not a good man????? Hadn't thought of that :sad: ).


No, I agree that some beginner ladies are tough going too - OH NO!! Maybe that's because I'm not a good man????? !!!!! :really: :really: :what: :what: :tears: :sad: :sick:

Although some of my best dances have been with beginner women who just clicked somehow (like John's partner the other night) and were able to follow me into moves they didn't know without problems, I have to say that the majority do not achieve this on their first couple of nights, and every so often I find one who is almost impossible [for me] to lead, except perhaps in the set sequence of moves taught in the class, which isn't a huge amount of fun for me. [As a side note - DJs PLEASE don't play really long tracks in between the beginner's and intermediate classes!!]

Also, I think Stevie has missed the point. The cliques people are complaining about are where there is a whole group of people, ANY of whom will either refuse to dance with you, or if they accept do not look as if they're enjoying it. Clearly if it's just one individual you would just avoid them and move on - but if it's a good proportion of the people there, then it's not going to be a place you want to go back to.

Sandy
19th-September-2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Franck
I am aware that this Forum is forming cliques of sort, but then again, the forum is open to anyone, and everyone is welcome, so don't be shy, join in, we won't bite! :nice:

Franck.

I remember the first time I came onto the Forum, it looked like everyone knew everyone and that I couldn't possibly have anything to offer and then the text comes up onto the screen and you think 'oh my god that sounds rubbish!' (some will say I still speak rubbish!). But it takes time and then people start to respond to your threads and you eventually feel part of the group.

I think this is the same for the dancing cliques - same again I felt left out but with time people recognise you and get to know you and you become part of a group as opposed to a clique - hope this makes sense but it is important to me as I can well remember all of the feelings mentioned on this topic - I'm exorcising my own demons at the same time.

My advise (for what it is worth) is to stick with it because it is definitely worth it

:wink:

Sandy

DavidB
19th-September-2002, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Stevie
My question i thought...and you know how to dance the mens part well. You therfore know it is the blokes that are thinking of what moves to do next. If Im dancing with an expert it is this part of the jigsaw im needing melp with, then geting on to the right hand to lead the move, once the move is started thats the easy bit, then its back to slotting in another move...How can an expert in the ladies role help the bloke through this? I just dont get it - if your being an expert at being led then really for me this isnt as helpful as someone saying - 'wait, try this'....Don't worry about always doing one complicated move straight into another. If you want to do a particular move, and you are on the wrong hand, then do something simple to change hands. eg to change from right to left, do a comb. To change from left to right, do a man's spin and catch with the other hand. These moves are short and simple enough that you don't forget the move you wanted to do in the first place!

Alternatively think the other way round - think of a move you can do on the handhold you've got. When you get bored of one hand, swap over and use the other (or both)

If you find a lady who knows how to lead the move as well as follow it, and can tell you how to lead it properly while she is following it, then ask her for another dance. She will probably be one of the best dancers there!

David

Lou
19th-September-2002, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Sandy


I remember the first time I came onto the Forum, it looked like everyone knew everyone and that I couldn't possibly have anything to offer and then the text comes up onto the screen and you think 'oh my god that sounds rubbish!' (some will say I still speak rubbish!). But it takes time and then people start to respond to your threads and you eventually feel part of the group.

True... true... look at me - I'm all the way down in Bristol, miles away from most of you & I even dance LeRoc :what: Yet you all chat to me! :wink:

Stevie
19th-September-2002, 01:53 PM
Yup, your advice is sound.

But what i was meaning was in relation to dancing with ladies that are expert dancers. FC (M) and (D) both being brialliant. Now they were moaning about beginners being scared to dance with them. Which maybe more or less true if;

the expert dancers looks disinterested, borred, lackluster. These respnces (which are theirs to give freely and thats just fine) just knock the beginners ego and confidence.

Were the expert to clearly 'teach'; call it whatever, lead, show a move then the beginner would have learned something and gained from the experience even if the expert were still looking disinterested.

looking disinterested and not having given some wisdom/skill/anothermove/or tips will leave the expert thinking a beginner is scared of them. Not true just the beginner doesnt know what (s)he's getting out of it, whereas another person could at least be fun to dance with.

And besides all beginners have to start somewhere and throwing beginners in at waht still seems like the deap end will probably not help.

s.

John S
19th-September-2002, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Sandy
I think this is the same for the dancing cliques - same again I felt left out but with time people recognise you and get to know you and you become part of a group as opposed to a clique -

My advise (for what it is worth) is to stick with it because it is definitely worth it

Sandy I don't THINK I'm seen as part of any particular group/clique, but one never knows - it's a matter of perspective, whether or not one is viewing from the inside or the outside.

I do agree with Sandy - if someone usually goes dancing on his/her own, as I tend to do (now, girls, form an orderly queue!) then to begin with it can sometimes feel as if EVERYONE else is in a couple or a group, or at least knows each other.

But I've found that isn't really the case, and anyway it's been a long time since it bothered me - one advantage of being a man is that at Ceroc there's always a demand for one's services (steady now) - men either get better or don't come back, they aren't left sipping their diet cokes all night!

It's perhaps harder for a woman in those circumstances, especially if they come on their own and there are loads of "spare women" (How's that for an uncomplimentary use of words?), and the awful word "clique" begins to form in one's mind.

The only thing to do is what Sandy recommends - just go for it and keep going for it! EG if Sandy hadn't persevered with the Chat Forum she wouldn't have got to know me!!!!


:wink:

Sandy
19th-September-2002, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by John S
The only thing to do is what Sandy recommends - just go for it and keep going for it! EG if Sandy hadn't persevered with the Chat Forum she wouldn't have got to know me!!!!
:wink: Yeh babe and what a loss that would have been:wink:

Hope your'e fit for all those dances Johnny boy:grin:

Cheers

Sandy

John S
19th-September-2002, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Sandy
Yeh babe and what a loss that would have been:wink:

Mine, Sandy, all mine.:wink:

Think we're off topic and in danger of forming a click, sorry, clique.:cheers:

filthycute
19th-September-2002, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Stevie
the expert dancers looks disinterested, borred, lackluster. These respnces (which are theirs to give freely and thats just fine) just knock the beginners ego and confidence.

Ok i know for a fact this isn't me!! I would never dance with someone and not smile or look disinterested....it's just not my thing. Funnily enough Elaine commented on this last night. She said i looked like i was really enjoying myself. It's not a front....i always have fun at the dancing :D


Were the expert to clearly 'teach'; call it whatever, lead, show a move then the beginner would have learned something and gained from the experience

Hey i'm all for that. I danced with a guy from Aberdeen last night. Half way through the track he asked me if it was ok to practise the intermediate moves with me. Me being the sweet wee thang i am :wink: was more than happy to help. We danced the last half of the track doing only these 4 moves. I couldn't care less if someone danced the whole track doing 4 moves. We had fun and i'm sure he gained something out of it. Don't it feel nice when someone asks for your help :D

If only they'd ask :(


filthycute MAd. x x

Stevie
19th-September-2002, 05:15 PM
Well Your on...........next time;

And your right I wasnt describing you as being disinterested....Full and Fun and Frolicks

:devil: :wink: :yum:

I'll/We'll get on top of this...

prommise you'll spank me if i get some moves wrong!

s.

Graham
19th-September-2002, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by John S
men either get better or don't come back, they aren't left sipping their diet cokes all night!

I understand where you're coming from, but I have to disagree. There are unfortunately a minority of men who are utterly dire, despite having attended faithfully for years (fortunately I can exclude myself from this category on the "attending for years" qualification, so I don't need any comments about the standard of my dancing, thanks!! :wink: )


Originally posted by Stevie
But what i was meaning was in relation to dancing with ladies that are expert dancers. FC (M) and (D) both being brialliant. Now they were moaning about beginners being scared to dance with them.

As others have commented, most of us feel nervous about dancing with ladies who are (in our opinions) of a significantly better standard than ourselves. Personally, I don't want to inflict my mediocre (or am I being over-optimistic here? :sick: ) skills on someone when someone else (eg. Bill) could be making them glide/float/spin/generally look fanastic. However, a lot depends on how you "click" with that particular partner, and when I mentioned earlier that some of my best dances had been with beginners, many others have been with ladies in the "much better than me" category. (Let's face it, this is such a large group I could hardly avoid dancing with them even if I wanted to!! :wink: )

As it's impossible to tell (at least it is for me) which ladies (of whatever standard) you are going to connect with, you basically have to put your best foot forward and give it a go. And the "click" I'm talking about has nothing to do with whether they know the leader's moves or not: you'll just find it incredibly easy and enjoyable to dance with them, and you somehow won't make so many mistakes.

:cheers:

Graham

DavidB
19th-September-2002, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Stevie
But what i was meaning was in relation to dancing with ladies that are expert dancers.Sorry - I misunderstood
- the expert dancers looks disinterested, borred, lackluster.....I think a lot of people can be guilty of this, not just the 'experts'. And some people always look bored, even when they are actually enjoying themselves.


Were the expert to clearly 'teach'; call it whatever, lead, show a move then the beginner would have learned something and gained from the experience even if the expert were still looking disinterested.I was taught that it was disrepectful for anyone apart from the teacher to teach. So even if I think the teacher is wrong, I don't go round offering advice, unless I am asked. But even then I'd be pushed to show a lady how to do anything. I can't follow. I spin about twice a year. I've never been dropped. I could possibly teach the men something, but not the ladies.
I imagine it is the same for the ladies - they know a good lead when they get one, but not many would be able to explain everything that you need to do to lead well. But they would know far more about following than a man ever would.

I'm starting to think that there needs to be something extra during the freestyle. You have the taxi dancers for the beginners, but what about the intermediates? They get to learn some moves and dance, but who is available to give them advice on how to dance. The teacher is hopefully dancing most of the time.
Every club I've been to has a handful of dancers that are better than the rest. Why not use their experience and skill to improve everyone else.

Then again - it might just start another clique...

David

filthycute
19th-September-2002, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Graham
you'll just find it incredibly easy and enjoyable to dance with them, and you somehow won't make so many mistakes.

:cheers:

Graham

This has happened to me on 2 occassions. Isn't it strange the way you can dance with someone for the very first time, and everything just falls into place. Normally when i'm dancing with a guy for the first/few time/s (depends on how quick i can get used to their moves/style) I'm concentrating so much on moves he's doing that i've never did before, trying figure out his dance style, getting used to his lead, etc, that i don't really think about my own style, what i'm doing with my spare hand, etc. Normally resulting in me making a zillion mistakes, having mind blocks and all that stuff :sick:
On these 2 occasions however it was completely different. It's like you bounce off each other. Allowing and encouraging each other to get in as much of their own style as possible. You make far less mistakes because your so much on the same wavelength you know what the other is going to do before they do it. (or it feels something like that ) :yum:
I've danced with some people for months and still never danced like that with them.

Guess it's just the same as when you have a conversation with someone and it's like you've known them for years. :D

It's a cool thing anyways and you'll definately know when it happens :waycool:

fc MAd. x x

Emma
19th-September-2002, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by DavidB


I'm starting to think that there needs to be something extra during the freestyle. You have the taxi dancers for the beginners, but what about the intermediates? They get to learn some moves and dance, but who is available to give them advice on how to dance. The teacher is hopefully dancing most of the time.

David

I think that's a very interesting point. I think Gus said something earlier or in another thread about having a group of people whose job it was to keep the intermediate dancers happy. I suppose that workshops are the main place that intermediate dancers can go to improve their dancing, but it might be good to have something similar to the taxi session of going over the beginner's class after the intermediate class, too.

Gus
19th-September-2002, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Emma

I think Gus said something earlier or in another thread about having a group of people whose job it was to keep the intermediate dancers happy

In my simple mind, the dancers who should keep the intermediates happy are the other intermediates, dancing with each other seems the logical thing to do.

When it comes to developing the intermediates, then they have as much right as any other dancer to ask the more advanced dancers onto the floor. Addiitonaly, the teacher should be targeting these people just as much as beginners later on ... especially when the neginners have retired for the evening.

Dancing Veela
20th-September-2002, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Gus
When it comes to developing the intermediates, then they have as much right as any other dancer to ask the more advanced dancers onto the floor. Addiitonaly, the teacher should be targeting these people just as much as beginners later on ... especially when the neginners have retired for the evening. Exactly Gus - that is what's missing - the teacher dancing with the longer standing members to help them improve too!!!!!! I know the teacher has a lot of people to dance with on a club night but still.....(oh and only works for half the class - i.e. only works for the women if it's a male teacher).

Come on Franck - do you think this is something that needs to happen - or do you think it happens today????
Originally posted by DavidB

I was taught that it was disrepectful for anyone apart from the teacher to teach. So even if I think the teacher is wrong, I don't go round offering advice, unless I am asked. I feel the same way David - I felt ok about it when I was a taxi dancer but I don't feel right doing it now unless I'm asked (what if I made THAT horrible mistake of giving someone advice and they really are a LOT better than me - or aren't better than me but think they are - or is that what I'm doing? Thinking I'm better than them?
Originally posted by DavidB
But even then I'd be pushed to show a lady how to do anything. I can't follow. I spin about twice a year. I've never been dropped. I could possibly teach the men something, but not the ladies.
I imagine it is the same for the ladies - they know a good lead when they get one, but not many would be able to explain everything that you need to do to lead well. But they would know far more about following than a man ever wouldWell I think a lot of good women have done the beginners classes (or even the intermediate class) as a man so it's not quite so hard - also we know how the move 'should' feel, therefore we can at least give them hints to what they are doing wrong - and if they need to firm up :wink: some of their moves.

As to FCs point about men being scared of you - I don't get that too often these days - I just get men asking me to be gentle with them - I don't know where they get that from either :devil:

Franck
20th-September-2002, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Dancing Veela
the teacher dancing with the longer standing members to help them improve too!!!!!! I know the teacher has a lot of people to dance with on a club night but still.....(oh and only works for half the class - i.e. only works for the women if it's a male teacher).
Come on Franck - do you think this is something that needs to happen - or do you think it happens today????I agree that the teacher needs to dance with as many people as possible, but you are right, there is a gap, once someone has been coming for a while, they tend to get asked less often.
There is no simple answer, but agreeing with Gus, I suppose the onus falls on the Intermediate to ask the teacher and each other.
As a teacher, but especially as a man, I do very little asking, not because I don't want to ask, but simply because I get asked for dances continually, leaving few gaps to go and ask someone else. When I do get the opportunity, my first instinct will be to ask a New member (beginner), mostly because I know they are the least likely to have the confidence to ask someone else.
I try regularly (but all too rarely :sad: ) to look around the room for a familiar face with whom I have not danced for ages and ask them for a dance, and usually it is great.

In any event, thanks for the post, as it has reminded me of that and I will make more of an effort to catch up with "Experienced" dancers. :nice:

As to what happens in other nights, I rarely get to travel as much as I used to, so I am unable to comment.

Franck.

Gus
20th-September-2002, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Franck
When I do get the opportunity, my first instinct will be to ask a New member (beginner), mostly because I know they are the least likely to have the confidence to ask someone else. Yup ... I think its abosultely VITAL that ALL beginners on their first night get a dance with either the teacher or the demo ... the reason for my convinction is that 90% of beginners (especialy men) may struggle on the first night and think its their fault. One good dance can get them totaly hooked.

A good friend of mine from Notts said that on her first night she had decided "never again" ... until she was grabbed for a dance by the instructor, the infanous Phil Roberts (now franchisee of the largest Ceroc setup in the UK). That one dance made her totaly change her mind and now she's an outstanding dancer.

Rachel
23rd-September-2002, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Graham
Personally, I don't want to inflict my mediocre (or am I being over-optimistic here? :sick: ) skills on someone when someone else (eg. Bill) could be making them glide/float/spin/generally look fanastic. Graham
Graham, stop putting yourself down so much - you're a good dancer! It was you I had a dance with in Glasgow, wasn't it?
Rachel

Graham
23rd-September-2002, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Rachel

Graham, stop putting yourself down so much - you're a good dancer! It was you I had a dance with in Glasgow, wasn't it?
Rachel Yes, we did dance, and thanks for your kind words! I enjoyed it too, but I thought I'd made loads of mistakes because I was distracted by chatting to you. Maybe you were also too distracted to notice!! :grin: Anyway, looking forward to your next visit!

Franck
24th-September-2002, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Gus
One good dance can get them totally hooked.Yes, that is the secret, I am sure that all of us can remember that one dance that turned us into complete addicts...
Just the one dance with a friendly face, where everything feels (for the first time) effortless and oh so rewarding... :nice:

Franck.

Gus
24th-September-2002, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Franck
Yes, that is the secret, I am sure that all of us can remember that one dance that turned us into complete addicts...
Just the one dance with a friendly face, where everything feels (for the first time) effortless and oh so rewarding... :nice: Franck .... you sound almost evangelical ..... you were obviously remembering your 'first time' and it obviously made one mighty impression. What happened, what was her name etc. etc. Share.:wink:

Bill
24th-September-2002, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Gus
In my simple mind, the dancers who should keep the intermediates happy are the other intermediates, dancing with each other seems the logical thing to do.

When it comes to developing the intermediates, then they have as much right as any other dancer to ask the more advanced dancers onto the floor. Addiitonaly, the teacher should be targeting these people just as much as beginners later on ... especially when the neginners have retired for the evening. The problem of course is that there are too many people for any one teacher and /or demo to dance with. Even the most energetic teacher could only realistically get round 20/25 people in a night by the time they have done both classes so it could be weeks before he/she can give you a dance.

In New Zealand they have Advanced classes - but their set up is different to ours in as much as they have 1 hour classes for beginners, intermediate and advanced with some freestyle evenings. But they do take it very seriously down there - perhaps that's why there are so many good dancers there and in Australia.

Trying to get the 'better' or more advanced dancers to instruct would cause all sorts of problems. Being percieved as good or 'better' than others does not mean that the individual is a very good dancer, or may have a style that the teacher or Ceroc does not particularly like. And it would not be expercially healthy for everyone to try and copy a specific person ( maybe Viktor would be an exception !:grin: ).

I agree with most of the comments about Intermediates making sure they get a few dances with those dancers they reckon they can learn somehting from. I occasionally comment on something a woman does but usually only if I'm asked and if I feel I know her well enough. So perhaps if men and women want comments they can ask but only the teacher would be really qualified to make comments on style and technique.

To improve we all need to go to more workshops and dance at differnet venues......and then practice when we get back before we ( I mean me:( ) forget all the moves !!!!

Franck
24th-September-2002, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Franck .... you sound almost evangelical ..... you were obviously remembering your 'first time' and it obviously made one mighty impression. What happened, what was her name etc. etc. Share.:wink: Aha, I won't be drawn into that, and will protect the innocent :nice:
A lot of the 'experienced' dancers (aka Ceroc addicts) I have spoken to have mentionned their first or second night at Ceroc, when they were asked by the teacher or one of the good dancers and quoted this as the reason they stuck with the classes and became themselves brilliant dancers and even teachers! :wink:

So all of you out there, don't be shy, be generous with your talents, style and experience, you never know the impact that one dance might have on that Beginner... :nice: :cheers:

Franck.

Rachel
24th-September-2002, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Graham
I thought I'd made loads of mistakes because I was distracted by chatting to you. Maybe you were also too distracted to notice!! :grin: Anyway, looking forward to your next visit!
Trying to talk to people when I'm dancing with them is a very bad habit of mine - sorry! But I don't remember you making any mistakes. It was a lovely dance.

Some caring soul - namely Janet - has informed me that there will be no Ceroc for the entire week that I'm next in Glasgow. I'm distraught! How far would it be to drive to Edinburgh or any other classes that might be on???

Graham
24th-September-2002, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Rachel

Some caring soul - namely Janet - has informed me that there will be no Ceroc for the entire week that I'm next in Glasgow. I'm distraught! How far would it be to drive to Edinburgh or any other classes that might be on???
Assuming you are talking about next week (starting September 30th) then sadly this is the case. :tears: :tears:
The Edinburgh classes are the closest for CEROC, and are approximately a one hour drive from Glasgow (unless you drive like Franck, in which case deduct a few minutes :wink: or you navigate like Franck, in which case add a few minutes!! :wink: :devil: Couldn't resist that, but I must also confess (before someone else points it out) that I made exactly the same directional error on the drive to Aberdeen on Saturday :what: )

JMW
25th-September-2002, 09:42 PM
I made exactly the same directional error on the drive to Aberdeen How can anyone who can find their way round Glasgow get lost coming to Aberdeen?

I personally think that the planners who designed the Motorways/One-way system in Glasgow need shot. Not that I go to Glasgow very often, but every time I do somebody decides to put roadworks on the only route I know, giving me a five mile detour down badly lit sideroads. Even when you can see exactly where you want to go some idiot has put a one-way sign up (another five mile detour). Then there are the road signs. Plenty of signs to tell you how far to go to reach a place, but no signs to tell you when you get there. (You think that last sign said two miles, think "I've been driving further than that", so you turn round and there is another sign saying the place you want to go is three miles in the opposite direction.)

James.

Perhaps it is just me.

Franck
26th-September-2002, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by Rachel
Some caring soul - namely Janet - has informed me that there will be no Ceroc for the entire week that I'm next in Glasgow. I'm distraught! How far would it be to drive to Edinburgh or any other classes that might be on??? What a disappointment you are coming back the week we are closed! :sad:
I was so looking forward to another dance or 2 :yum:

Anyway, you should definitely visit one of the Edinburgh nights if you can. It's only about an hour drive (or 50 minutes in the train). Take your pick from Monday (Teacher Alison), Tuesday (Teacher Obi) or Thursday (teacher Scot) :nice:

In the meantime I hope you can make it back up to Scotland soon (Competition? 10th Anniversary?)

Franck.