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John S
16th-September-2002, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Gus

Had chance to view some video of the Ceroc 2002 championships and discuss it with a few learned associates ...


Was this a private video, or is the "official" one now available then?

It seems to have been taking an interminably long time, and the Ceroc UK website still says that work is continuing on the 2002 video. Confused.:what:

Gus
16th-September-2002, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by John S


Was this a private video, or is the "official" one now available then?


Private video I'm afraid. Like yourself I'm very keen to see the full video ... sounds like there were some excellent perofrmances and a few contraversial incidents (DON'T MENTION THE DOUBLE TROUBLE FINAL FIASCO!!)

It seems to be common practice for all these videos to take 10 times longer than you would expect. At least the quality of these vids is gradualy getting better.

Suggestion, you might want to arrange a viewing for the clubs (if Ceroc HQ give permission). We've just done that with the Chance to Dance vid (2002 Open UK Champs) and had a great time .... even getting chance to cheer on Bill and the Girls in their double trouble event.

DavidB
16th-September-2002, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Gus
even getting chance to cheer on Frank and the Grils in their double trouble event. One man dancing with two barbeques... now that would be some hot dancing

Gus
16th-September-2002, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
One man dancing with two barbeques... now that would be some hot dancing

Well the girls were really hot stuff...:yum: :yum:

OK Dave ... after your recent quietness I would have expected a more erudite response to my attempts at controvesy than picking holes in my spelling (not exactly a hard target!)... only just noticed I'd also morphed Bill into Franck aswell ......

So ... got anything usefull to say Oh Knowledgeable one on the subject of vids or instructors winning their own competitions ?????

PS .... are you up for the Champs?

DavidB
16th-September-2002, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by Gus
So ... got anything usefull to say Oh Knowledgeable one That's 'O Knowledgeable One' with a capital O ('Sir' or 'He Who Dances Like Fred Astaire' are also acceptable. However 'He Who Dances Like Fred Flintstone' might be more accurate.) And I've always got something to say, but it's rarely useful.


...on the subject of .. instructors winning their own competitions ?????It doesn't matter how independent the judges are, if the local teacher wins, then people will complain about bias. But I want to see the best dancers taking part. If these include the teachers, then I would still want them to enter. I'd rather there be discussions about it afterwards, than for them to be barred from entering in the first place.

I understand why organisers don't allow teachers to enter. There is too big a gap in standard between the intermediate winners and the top teachers, and it would put people off entering the advanced division. But by not allowing teachers to take part, you are missing out on some of the best dancing around.

I think the jive competition scene in the UK is big enough now for a division beyond the advanced that is open to anyone - maybe not at every competition, but certainly at Blackpool and the Ceroc champs. (I don't know what you would call it - Champions / Professional / Invitational ????) You would then have Beginners, Intermediate, Advanced and ???? - it would allow a division for everyone with a reasonable chance of doing well.

Picking the judges is difficult. In an ideal world, you would have a selection of qualified judges from different organisation, and some independent teachers as well. I can't quite see that happening.

An organisation (like Ceroc) would quite reasonably want to only include their own qualified teachers, especially if their qualifications are a major part of their marketing. However this could easily be perceived to be biased if their own teachers take part.

The organiser might know several people he would like to be judges, but might prefer them to compete instead.

Several competitions have had judges who teach other dance styles (eg Ballroom, Salsa or Lindy) to deflect any appearance of bias. Unfortunately you then wonder how much they actually know about modern jive.

It is also common to have couples judging. It makes some things easier (such as travelling and possibly accomodation) but it can also lead to bias - you now have 2 people who like a particular style, instead of one.

I don't have any answers. The best bet is probably to get as many judges as you can afford, and publish the marks afterwards. At least then the organiser doesn't get accused of bias.


PS .... are you up for the Champs? Not sure at the moment. It's a long way to go for a freestyle, and we are thinking that the Glasgow party might be easier.

David

Debster
17th-September-2002, 05:18 PM
Several competitions have had judges who teach other dance styles (eg Ballroom, Salsa or Lindy) to deflect any appearance of bias. Unfortunately you then wonder how much they actually know about modern jive.

OK, you want controversial....

What is there to know about modern jive that a real dancer couldn't plainly see?

:devil:
I think teachers from most other styles are well equipped to judge a modern jive competition.
Let's not take ourslves too seriously here.

Gus
17th-September-2002, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Debster


I think teachers from most other styles are well equipped to judge a modern jive competition.
Let's not take ourslves too seriously here.


Sorry Debster but based on the evidence of the few times non-Jive judges have been let loose, I think you may not be entirely correct.

Why should a modern jiver not be competent to judge Ballroom but a Ballroom judge be competent to judge Modern Jive ..... have you ever seen the Ballroom version of Modern Jive .... personaly I thought it was of similar comic proportions to the Marx Brothers ... its a very different beast .. and one which I'm obviously ill placed to judge. So .... would be reticent to compete in a competition with judges who didn't know the Modern Jive dance style.

Fair comment?

filthycute
17th-September-2002, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Debster


OK, you want controversial....

I think teachers from most other styles are well equipped to judge a modern jive competition.
Let's not take ourslves too seriously here.

Thats very true Debs, but i have to say that in any form of dance, some people are under the impression that just because you are intitled to call your self a "dance teacher" that you are obviously a great dancer and highly knowledgable in your field. UInfortunately i have seen many "dance teachers" who are not fit to judge a wellie throwing competition, let alone a dance competition. I for one would rather have David B (A very experienced dancer, with an abyss of knowledge in a vast range of dance types/styles) judging me, than a "dance teacher" (who has possibly been dancing for a while, but has been qualified for 2 months and hasn't even seen most of the dance moves,let alone know if the couple performed it correctly!)

i bet there's a lot of advanced dancers out there who could tell the "teachers" a thing or two.

filthycute MAd. x x

Gus
17th-September-2002, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by DavidB

There is too big a gap in standard between the intermediate winners and the top teachers, and it would put people off entering the advanced division. But by not allowing teachers to take part, you are missing out on some of the best dancing around.

I think the jive competition scene in the UK is big enough now for a division beyond the advanced that is open to anyone
David

Been thinking about your last comment a lot. The UK jive scene is growing but from my limited knowledge (and I'm happy to be corrected on this) I think that the number of advanced competitors is small. From what I've seen over the last two years I think the following is a failry comprehensive list of the top competitors;

London: Dan Slape, Ray, Heather & partner, Roger C

Aussies: Tubsy & Jeanine, James & Hayley

LeRoc: Graham & Ann, Mark & partner, Sherif & Mandy

North: Pete & Kay, Gus & Helen, Keith, George Moss

Scotland: Bill & Fran

Thats not a lot of dancers. Its also intersting that from some of the areas where I know there are good dancerts, e.g. Ceroc Central and West of London ... there are no dancers competing at the top level........

BUT I would say that none of the above are in the 'Super-Advanced' category. The best dancers (now) don't compete, e.g. Viktor & LKydia, Dan Baines, Sue Freeman, Nigel & Nina, Amir etc.

So ... I would say, that given the above dancers, they are all well within reach of advancing intermediates ... possibly with only the Aussies having a real edge on the rest.

Any other views?

DavidB
17th-September-2002, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Debster
What is there to know about modern jive that a real dancer couldn't plainly see? I think teachers from most other styles are well equipped to judge a modern jive competition.I have no doubt that judges and teachers in other forms of dancing know as much (and almost certainly a lot more) about their dance, than modern jive judges know about jive. But that doesn't make them good modern jive judges.

Any judge will have a standard that they judge against. Sometimes this might be formalised as in ballroom, other times it might be their own comparison with the best they have seen. The problem when you judge something different is that you don't have the standard to judge against. So what usually happens is they judge according to their normal criteria against their normal standard.

A ballroom judge would see a modern jive couple and start comparing how they used their feet, arms etc. But would they notice anything about musical interpretation? A West Coast Swing judge might mark anyone down that did moves at the expense of interpretation. A Salsa judge might mark a couple down for having a 'quiet' lead, and not feeling the music enough.

I like the idea of having a 'guest' judge from a different style, as you can always learn something different from their marks. But the majority of judges should be experienced modern jive dancers/teachers.


David

DavidB
17th-September-2002, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Thats not a lot of dancers.But it is enough to have a final, and make it a highlight of the evening. And it would make the advanced category a lot more popular to enter.

And if you have all these top dancers there - why not get them to judge the other divisions, and do some workshops as well...

David

Jon
17th-September-2002, 07:17 PM
It seems that beginners are forgotten about. Why isn't there a category for them after all there are alot of beginners out there and people who don't feel they have the confidence to enter as an intermediate let alone advanced.

Gus
17th-September-2002, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by Jon
It seems that beginners are forgotten about. Why isn't there a category for them after all there are alot of beginners out there and people who don't feel they have the confidence to enter as an intermediate let alone advanced.

If memory serves me right the original Le Jive and the first Ceroc champs had a beginners section, for those who had been dancing for 6 months or less .... don't know why they stopped ... seemed like a good idea.

We did the same at Nantwich one freestyle ... two sections, those dancing for less than 6 months .. and the rest in the other section ... very few people willing to get on the floor for the beginners ... not really surprising really.

LilyB
17th-September-2002, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by Gus

London: Dan Slape, Ray, Heather & partner, Roger C

Aussies: Tubsy & Jeanine, James & Hayley

LeRoc: Graham & Ann, Mark & partner, Sherif & Mandy

North: Pete & Kay, Gus & Helen, Keith, George Moss

Scotland: Bill & Fran

BUT I would say that none of the above are in the 'Super-Advanced' category. The best dancers (now) don't compete, e.g. Viktor & LKydia, Dan Baines, Sue Freeman, Nigel & Nina, Amir etc.

I think you are doing a great disservice to some of those dancers you have named, plus a few others you have omitted. You are implying that these dancers are not in the same league (ie. 'Super-Advanced') as the likes of Victor & Lydia, Nigel & Nina etc.

I, personally, disagree very strongly with you on that point. Having danced with and/or watched some of those named in your 'Super-Advanced' category, as well as danced with and/or watched those you have described as merely 'Advanced', I do not consider any of those in your 'Super-Advanced' category to be significantly better/more advanced than the others. In making my own 'judgement', I take into account ability to lead, connection, style, musical interpretation, variety of moves and the ability to relate to their partner. I also draw from my own experience (in excess of 30 years) as a dancer with background in ballet, ballroom & latin, acrobatic rock'n'roll, theatre-arts, modern jive, WCS and Hustle. Just because some of those named in your 'Super-Advanced' category are now establised teachers and/or judges, that in no way makes them better dancers than those listed under your 'Advanced' category. As an example, (and IMHO) the 2 Aussie/NZ guys are some of the most sensual, lyrical and interpretive dancers I have ever encountered in the modern jive world. Those are not, however, adjectives you would use to describe, for example, Dan Baines' or Nigel's style of dancing. Don't get me wrong - I am not dissing anyone in your 'Super' category; merely saying that I personally do not consider that anyone in the modern jive world deserves to be in a 'Super-Advanced' category, at least not until they prove their abilities by competing on an equal footing with the others. Perhaps that can be resolved by David's suggestion of a seperate competition category for champions/professionals?


Originally posted by Gus

Any other views? You got what you asked for, Gus! But remember, these are just my own personal views on the matter. :wink:

LilyB

Gus
18th-September-2002, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by LilyB
I think you are doing a great disservice to some of those dancers you have named, plus a few others you have omitted. You are implying that these dancers are not in the same league (ie. 'Super-Advanced') as the likes of Victor & Lydia, Nigel & Nina etc. No disservice intended ... just my personal view. Many thanks for your response .... exactly what I wanted.... and although you havn't changed my opinion, I recognise that your background/experience in dance far outwieghs mine (not hard really). I think your point re interpretation is well made but I think that only the two Aussie couples stand ahead of the pack.

PS Who do you think I've excluded ... I don't for one minute think I've seen all the good dancers on the block but I think I've covered all the recent finalists at Ceroc, Blackpool and Bristol.
Originally posted by LilyB
As an example, (and IMHO) the 2 Aussie/NZ guys are some of the most sensual, lyrical and interpretive dancers I have ever encountered in the modern jive world. Luckily I think I sort of agreed with this point when I said....
Originally posted by Gus
So ... I would say, that given the above dancers, they are all well within reach of advancing intermediates ... possibly with only the Aussies having a real edge on the rest.The main point I was trying to make, in my usual meandering way, was that I don't think there is a huge gap between the up and coming intermediates and the top of the current advanced dancers (OK .. maybe I'm wrong but thats my view). My other point was that the percieved 'super advanced' dancers don't compete ... any suggestions as to how we get them to do? Waht would it be worth to see Nigel&Nina, Viktor&Lydia, Amir, H, Joseph etc all go head to head .... thats one event I would pay very good money to see!

John S
18th-September-2002, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by Jon
It seems that beginners are forgotten about. Why isn't there a category for them after all there are alot of beginners out there and people who don't feel they have the confidence to enter as an intermediate let alone advanced.

Gus is right - the 1999 Ceroc championships theme was "Serious Fun", and it had a Beginners (<6mths) section. There were a lot of entries - some of them were obviously beginners but quite a few weren't (they had maybe only attended a Ceroc class for 6 months, but had experience of other similar dances.)

I have also heard that one of the medallists had been going to a Ceroc class for well over the 6 month minimum, and if it is true then it is very sad that anyone should enter on false pretences like that.

Despite those problems, I definitely agree with Jon that it would have been nice to have had a Beginners Section again at championships, to encourage those just starting out as dancers - unfortunately it seems to have fallen victim to the trend towards "serious" competition rather than "fun", and has been squeezed out in favour of more advanced, cabaret and showcase sections - all of which leave beginners thinking that the championships are not for them. Pity.

CJ
18th-September-2002, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by John S

Despite those problems, I definitely agree with Jon that it would have been nice to have had a Beginners Section again at championships, to encourage those just starting out as dancers - unfortunately it seems to have fallen victim to the trend towards "serious" competition rather than "fun", and has been squeezed out in favour of more advanced, cabaret and showcase sections - all of which leave beginners thinking that the championships are not for them. Pity.

hear 'ere. or is that here hear? eh, anyway, well said, old boy.

Debster
18th-September-2002, 10:02 AM
I personally agree that modern jive should be judged by a majority of modern jive people. It just seems right to be that way.

And yes, just because someone is a teacher, it doesn't mean they know anything or are good dancers (fortunately they do usually have a good head start).

But I still haven't heard what modern jive should be judged on that doesn't appear in other dances.

And - Don't even try to tell me that ballroom/latin doesn't have musical interpretation - the good ones definitely do.

That's all I have time for right now....
happy dancing!

DavidB
18th-September-2002, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Debster
But I still haven't heard what modern jive should be judged on that doesn't appear in other dances.All partner dances are the roughly the same - a man leads a lady to dance together to the music. But all partner dances are different - the way the man and the lady stand, and move. The methods of leading are different. The music, and the effect it has on the dance is different. And the way the couple dance together is different. These differences are why we have Modern Jive, Lindy, West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, Shag, Boogie Woogie, Ballroom Jive, Jitterbug etc. All are similar, but all are different.

Anyone who is an expert on a particular dance is more than capable of giving a well reasoned explanation why one couple is better than another. That explanation is based on their personal preference on what is important in the dance (coupled with any guidance from the organiser on what the competition is aiming for). But what is important in one dance is not necessarily important in another.


Don't even try to tell me that ballroom/latin doesn't have musical interpretation - the good ones definitely do.I should have said improvisation. Unless things have changed in the last couple of years, the top competitors in Latin do routines, and little else. They might be full of interpretation to the style of the music, but they will do the same routine in every heat of every competition, no matter what the music is. I think this is a real shame - the top latin dancers are ridiculously talented, and when you see them doing their demonstrations, they really show what they can do. I would love to see them interpret each song in a competition, not just the style.

Part of the problem is the music. Too much of it sticks so rigidly to the tempo that there is rarely anything to highlight. Another problem is risk - you will be a lot more consistent in your performance if you always do the same thing every time. But the main reason is that improvisation is not considered important in Latin.

I actually find Balloom dancers tend to dance more to the music. Their routines seem to be less structured - more a series of parts they can put together in any order. It's not exactly freestyle, but its not a set routine either. It seems to give them a bit more freedom. (But I've always preferred the style of ballroom to latin).

David

Will
19th-September-2002, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by LilyB

I think you are doing a great disservice to some of those dancers you have named, plus a few others you have omitted. You are implying that these dancers are not in the same league (ie. 'Super-Advanced') as the likes of Victor & Lydia, Nigel & Nina etc.

LilyB

Well my opinion (for what it's worth) is the same as Lily's. Whilst it would be very subjective of me to put these dancers in order, I'd certainly would put James & Hayley, Ray, Victor & Lydia, Joseph & Trish, Stevie Wong, Amir, Nigel & Nina, Clayton & Janine, Mark, Greg Leclerc & Sarah, Micktor & Hannah all in the same catagory. (apologies to others I've missed out)

If pushed I'd expect Viktor & Lydia to come out on top, but it would be very interesting, and they'd all certainly deserve to be in the same catagory as one another.

Gus
19th-September-2002, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Will


Well my opinion (for what it's worth) is the same as Lily's. Whilst it would be very subjective of me to put these dancers in order, I'd certainly would put James & Hayley, Ray, Victor & Lydia, Joseph & Trish, Stevie Wong, Amir, Nigel & Nina, Clayton & Janine, Mark, Greg Leclerc & Sarah, Micktor & Hannah all in the same catagory. (apologies to others I've missed out)


Sorry, but my opinion stays the same. As I said before, with the exclusion of the two Aussie couples the rest of the main competitiors are at a similar level. Me and my partner compete at that level but there is no way that we would put ourself in the same category as Viktor, Miktor or Joseph, and I think if you asked someone like Ray he'd probably agree. The trouble is, because they don't compete, the best dancers aren't as visible as the current 'advanced dancers ... but believe me, from my viewpoint there is a sizeable gap.

To get back to why I made the original quote, the point at question was whether the 'advanced' category is too intimidating. Given the actual standard in the advanaced category, with the exception of the aussies, everyone there is beatable ... and I'm sure that the new blood on the scene next year will cause an upset or two.

Of course ... all the above is only my opinion:wink:

PS Who is Steve Wong ... I'm sorry but I don't think I've come across him?

Will
19th-September-2002, 03:58 PM
Gus

I would probably have a similar order of preference to these guys as you. The only problem people have is your insistance that there is a gap 'so sizable' that it requires another catagory. I don't agree with you about the gap, but I do agree generally with the guys you've highlighted as the best.

As for 'who is Stevie Wong?' He won Adam Nathansons Ceroc Metro tournament in Walthamstow earlier this year. What was even more sickening is that it was the first competition he'd ever entered. (He beat James Geary into 3rd place). He tends to hang out at Amir's classes quite alot, but is generally a regular fixture in the London scene. He's jokingly known down in London as "The Michael Jackson of Ceroc"

If you want more info on him, ask Debster as she danced with him recently at Bristol. Personally, I reckon it's only because of her that he looks so good. But the fact that they didn't win Bristol was probably the biggest controversy of the whole event. Nevertheless I intend to break both his legs if I end up competing against him again. :grin:

Gus
19th-September-2002, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by Will
Gus

As for 'who is Stevie Wong?' He won Adam Nathansons Ceroc Metro tournament in Walthamstow earlier this year.

Aha ... you'll have to exclude my ignorance of this event ... hadn't heard of it up North. Might explian my ignorance of Messr Wong ... the dancers I'd quoted earlier are the ones who've been placed or finalists in the advanced categories of the major's, i.e. Cerco and UK Open (Blackpool).

Daft question, if he'd beaten the person who came second in the ADVANCED section at Ceroc (James) ... why did he enter the INTERMEDIATE section at Bristol??????

Will
20th-September-2002, 04:08 PM
Because the Bush Bandit decided that he qualified for the intermediate as this was only he second major tournament. It was about him that all this stuff about being marked down for entering the wrong catagory (allegedly) was about.

Debster
24th-September-2002, 04:12 PM
...for entering the wrong catagory ...
Or rather it turned out that everybody else in intermediate at Bristol entered the "Wong" category.... ?? :D :D :D :D :D hah ha ha - i crack me up...

Gus
24th-September-2002, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by Will
Because the Bush Bandit decided that he qualified for the intermediate as this was only he second major tournament. . So what category did this man of hitherto hidden talent enter in the main Ceroc championships? (With all due respect to Ceroc Metro, don't think their local event is on the same level at the main Ceroc Champs??)

Debster
25th-September-2002, 12:47 PM
So what category did this man ...enter in the main Ceroc championships?
I think it was intermediate. But technically it doesn't matter. It doesn't indicate your actual ability, but perhaps your confidence level.
There are no rules about this.
And the level you choose to enter can easily be influenced by the partner you are dancing with.


...don't think their local event is on the same level ...

Well, perhaps the event is not the same scale, but you can't take that as a measure of the standard of dancers there either.

But OK, now I will admit it was a 'dance with a stranger' competition. Which personally I think is a better judge of dancing abilities of people who don't spend all their time with one partner. Quite a skill. And Steve is also very stylish to top it all off!

Gus
25th-September-2002, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Debster

I think it was intermediate. But technically it doesn't matter. It doesn't indicate your actual ability, but perhaps your confidence level.
There are no rules about this. And Steve is also very stylish to top it all off!

coming back to my original point I was interested that Will mentioned a dancer at the same level as Ray, Tubbsy etc. who I hadn't met before, profesional curiosity if you will.

Have now seen some footage of the intermediate section and have to say that I think he was at the right level. From what I saw on the vid he will have to improve some to win an internedaite section.

Personal view entirely, he's a competent intermediate but doesn't come close to the likes of Ray etc.

As they say, one man's 'stylish' is another man's 'interesting'.

Ste
28th-September-2002, 02:22 PM
Hello Peeps

I write this memo to allay the fears of anyone who doesn't know me and who is concerned that they have not uncovered a new major dancing talent, a blast from the East, the Bruce Lee of Ceroc, the pot of Scouse on the modern jive menu etc etc.

Look, it's Will Hargreaves who is London's new up and coming talent OK? He is after all the Ballroom drop King ( Silent but deadly....or is that a lot of hot air?). Readers of dancer.co.uk's board will be familiar with this man's prodigious talent in dancing ...and also PR. Or is that Pith extraction maestro...Gus , you've been extracted.

The man is a marketing genius and even convinced a young shop assistant in Singapore that I was a world famous guitarist.....hmmmmm....the lad actually thought he recognised me!!!!!!!!!!( NB If Eric Clapton or any guitarist out there fancy a duel ,with a Ceroc admission the prize, on the frets, I am more than happy to oblige.....pick ( pun ) your style and impress me..but not country or old rock and roll please!)

Yes I did win Walthamstowe with Haidee ( where are you???) a very talented lindy hopper but before entering that ( with prompting by Ed and my Hammersmith Partner) I wasn't stupid enough to put my name down for the advanced. You gotta be kidding. Ray and James Geary, are 2 of my Ceroc influences and there was no way I could compete against their like. How could I stand a chance against people like Janine and Clayton, my heroes. Pay all that money and get knocked out first round? I don't think so...! :sad: Anyway I 've only been competing for a few months and until recently I was so naive about dancing that I haven't proper shoes. I have been dancing for ages in heavy rubber soled boots and it was only recently that I realised how silly this was. I hope to rectify it soon.So Advanced?????Don't be fooled by the PR ( hehehe)

When was in a heat I noticed a superb couple. It probably took me a split second to realise these were seriously hot....a couple in green. Better than me and partner ....who taught me a lot and got me competing. I heard rumours that they got knocked out for being in the intermediate when they should have been in the Advanced. I thought they were easily the best and should have won. I don't think I danced very well at Hammersmith...I think that when you start dancing with one person a lot you can lose or become unfamiliar with a lot of moves and impetus. have certainly lost a lot of the verve and confidence had before I started competing but when I do execute something it is smoother.

After I started to dance with DebsTAR afew weeks before Bristol she told me that she had danced in green. I realised that she was the green girl and I was so impressed by the green thing that we decided to do the green thing at Bristol where it was suggested that we should have been in Advanced etc etc.

In tribute to DebSTAR :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: she was great to dance with and taught me a lot. It was a privilege for me to dance with her and her footwork is hot ! She was a joy to watch and even got thru to the Lucky Dip Final as well ( I thought that she should have won!) .She truly is a Deb STAR .

Will
1st-October-2002, 12:57 AM
Stevie "The Love" Wong.......... Such is the measure of this man that his modesty, like his dancing, brings a tear to my eye!

:tears:


:grin: :grin: :grin:

Franck
1st-October-2002, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Ste
I write this memo to allay the fears of anyone who doesn't know me and who is concerned that they have not uncovered a new major dancing talent, a blast from the East, the Bruce Lee of Ceroc, the pot of Scouse on the modern jive menu etc etc. Wow, some description... Welcome to the forum, and now that you have had a chance to describe yourself, I am sure we would all love to see you in action :wink:
Will you be going to the Scottish Competition? It is not too late to register and I am sure we have some spaces left in either the Intermediate or Advanced category...

Franck.

Ste
2nd-October-2002, 01:04 AM
Hello Franck
Och aye de nooooO!!!!!!!

You may be very pleased to know that one of my main heroes was Kenny Dalglish. I saw him on his Anfield debut I think. Whoops showing my age.What an incredible talent.

What I was trying to say Franck was that I am not a dancer who could in any way be compared to these greats. Cmon man, Roger Chin is my dance mentor! For the record and to stir up more controversy with Gus, Roger is super advanced standard in my view as are Haley and James. Haley is a Masterclass champion after all in New Zealand...teachers can compete in Masterclass as I understand it.

I suppose I can be compared to a bowl of Scouse though. Small but hot and tasty!

I did want to compete at the Scottish Champs but unfortunately am not able to. I would have stayed at intermediate level although I am thinking of doing Advanced at Blackpool and at Ceroc in May, if God willing I can do those comps. The only thing is I have no chance of winning it and I wouldn't be able to go back to intermediate! Eeekkkkk!!!!!! So does that mean will never win anything else ever again if I go up to Advanced????

Mind you I could go to New Zealand and get trained there and come back as a Super Advanced Australasian styled drop merchant. And with a fake New Zealand accent.

One or more of you successful Cabaret champions does know me...by the way I thought they were great.It was the suits and guns that I really liked!

As for you Will, if you tease me too much I may mention the F word...Football! Michael Owen Owen Owen.

Love

Ste ( or Stavros to my friends from Tottenham )

Will
10th-October-2002, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Gus

PS Who is Steve Wong ... I'm sorry but I don't think I've come across him?
Sorry to bring this one up again, but just so you don't think I'm blagging you Gus, check out the last paragraph of
this article (http://www.cerocmetro.com/hot_off_the_press.html)

Cheers

Will

Rachel
10th-October-2002, 01:34 PM
Now I'm confused ... If Steve Wong didn't compete in the Advanced at Hammersmith, then WHO was the guy in the Advanced final - dancing alonside Ray, James, Clayton and, who else, Mark ...?

I'm thinking of the little guy in black (or red t-shirt/black trousers) dancing with the girl with short blonde hair? I'm not sure now if I just assumed or was told that HE was Steve Wong. He - and his partner - looked absolutely fantastic. Does anyone here know who he is??

And the real Steve, have you not got any pictures of yourself that you could post onto the forum to stop all this confusion? I did actually see you win at Walthamstow, but I was so far at the back of the hall, I didn't really see your face. A much deserved win, though, I think!
Rachel

Gus
10th-October-2002, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
Now I'm confused ... If Steve Wong didn't compete in the Advanced at Hammersmith, then WHO was the guy in the Advanced final - dancing alonside Ray, James, Clayton and, who else, Mark ...?

Rachel

Are you thinking of Dan Slape, very clubby style, young lad, very good? Came 3rd.

Rachel
10th-October-2002, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Are you thinking of Dan Slape, very clubby style, young lad, very good? Came 3rd.
No, not him, either - I'd forgotten about Dan (how could I?) and agree he's a great dancer. His dancing style reminds me of Marc - my Marc, that is.

The guy I'm wondering about was on the left edge of the dance floor as you're looking at the stage, asian appearance, very small and slim, and I'm sure he was dressed in either all black or black and red. He and his partner matched each other exactly in their dance style - very clipped and precise. Stunningly perfect as regards technique, positioning, etc, although perhaps not as showy as Ray/James and partners. Extremely impressive, though.

Sorry, I know that's not a very good description, but I'm overcome with curiosity now ...

Gus
10th-October-2002, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Rachel

The guy I'm wondering about was on the left edge of the dance floor as you're looking at the stage, asian appearance, very small and slim, and I'm sure he was dressed in either all black or black and red. He and his partner matched each other exactly in their dance style - very clipped and precise. Stunningly perfect as regards technique, positioning, etc, although perhaps not as showy as Ray/James and partners. Extremely impressive, though.

Sorry, I know that's not a very good description, but I'm overcome with curiosity now ...

Ahhh ... know who you mean now ... spoken to him and his partner several times ... been on the circuit for a few years now ... still don't knoiw his name ... always looks like he's doing Wing Chung Kung Fu!

Rachel
10th-October-2002, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Gus


Ahhh ... know who you mean now ... spoken to him and his partner several times ... been on the circuit for a few years now ... still don't knoiw his name ... always looks like he's doing Wing Chung Kung Fu!
Yes, that's the one! I was just amazed how he and his partner could be so perfectly controlled and together in all their movements - I was quite mesmerized. I agree with Marc that perhaps their style wasn't so suited to the bluesy, slow numbers, but I was really struck by them and thought they were excellent.

I'm really pleased I decided to buy the Champs video - you don't realise how much you miss seeing when you're there and how many fantastic dancers there are to watch. Some of these people I could never tire of watching.

David Franklin
10th-October-2002, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Gus


Ahhh ... know who you mean now ... spoken to him and his partner several times ... been on the circuit for a few years now ... still don't knoiw his name ... always looks like he's doing Wing Chung Kung Fu!
His name is Sui Fai Yuen - we were part of a group looking to do a team cabaret for Ceroc 2001, but various people dropped out and it never happened. I think he looks fantastic to the right music, but he doesn't want to change his style to fit the more bluesy stuff, which I think costs him in the "slower track" part of the finals.

Dave

Rachel
10th-October-2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by David Franklin
I think he looks fantastic to the right music, but he doesn't want to change his style to fit the more bluesy stuff, which I think costs him in the "slower track" part of the finals.
Dave I agree, otherwise I think he would have well deserved a placing. But I guess you should be able show that you can adapt your style to suit the music if you want to win the advanced.

I've just now remembered a dance I had at last May's Camber Sands with who I thought at the time was Steve Wong. Now I really don't know if it was him, or this other guy, or someone else entirely... Oh well, it was a very nice dance, whoever it was!

You know what I really fancied doing after watching the Championship video? Do a partner swap for various people ... I remember thinking - if only that girl was dancing with this guy, and that other guy's style would suit this girl much better ... And of the finalists, I'd also love to watch, say, Clayton dance with Haley, Janine with Ray, etc etc

And why oh why can they not manage to get the music to fit the dancing on the video. The video's great in so many ways, but it looks like everyone's dancing out of time in certain places - really irritating. Is technology not that far advanced yet - or is it more difficult than I think?

DavidB
10th-October-2002, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
You know what I really fancied doing after watching the Championship video? Do a partner swap for various people ... I remember thinking - if only that girl was dancing with this guy, and that other guy's style would suit this girl much better ... And of the finalists, I'd also love to watch, say, Clayton dance with Haley, Janine with Ray, etc etcThey have this in the US. They get all the teachers on the floor, the men draw their partner's name from a hat, and they dance (usually one couple at a time so you get chance to see them!)
And why oh why can they not manage to get the music to fit the dancing on the video. The video's great in so many ways, but it looks like everyone's dancing out of time in certain places - really irritating. Is technology not that far advanced yet - or is it more difficult than I think? When they edit the video, the sound will quite often become separated from the video. And if the recording was distorted, they might just use the song straight from the CD. It is easy to get it back in sync, but only if it was a dancer doing the editing.

David

Rachel
10th-October-2002, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
They have this in the US. They get all the teachers on the floor, the men draw their partner's name from a hat, and they dance (usually one couple at a time so you get chance to see them!)
Brilliant! I wish they did that here, too.


When they edit the video, the sound will quite often become separated from the video. And if the recording was distorted, they might just use the song straight from the CD. It is easy to get it back in sync, but only if it was a dancer doing the editing. 'Only, if it's a dancer' .... yes, I somehow think you're right there!

Ste
11th-October-2002, 01:47 AM
I was very flattered that someone thought I was Siu Fi. He danced really well in the Advanced final and had an original style. Confusingly I danced with a blonde girl as well but it was in the intermediate final!

I remember some guy coming to me and asking if I had done martial arts. I have and so has Siu Fi but there is no way my dancing looks like Wing Chun although I have always admired that style. My martial arts training was very English orientated Shotokan with lots of Freestyle sparring so when I dance you should not be able to tell that I did martial arts.

By the way please consider going to Nathan's Walthamstowe evening . I had a superb time and the Ball was a great success.

Rachel
11th-October-2002, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Ste
I was very flattered that someone thought I was Siu Fi. He danced really well in the Advanced final and had an original style. Confusingly I danced with a blonde girl as well but it was in the intermediate final!
By the way please consider going to Nathan's Walthamstowe evening . I had a superb time and the Ball was a great success. Then I shall study my Hammersmith video again, Steve, and look out for you in the intermediate final. Oh, and I agree with you about Debs being a fantastic dancer - I didn't know who the girl in green was until you mentioned it, but her dancing stood out immediately.

And yes, I'll certainly do my best to make it to to the Walthamstow Ball again next April - it was a great evening last time.
Rachel

Bill
14th-October-2002, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Gus


BUT I would say that none of the above are in the 'Super-Advanced' category. The best dancers (now) don't compete, e.g. Viktor & LKydia, Dan Baines, Sue Freeman, Nigel & Nina, Amir etc.

So ... I would say, that given the above dancers, they are all well within reach of advancing intermediates ... possibly with only the Aussies having a real edge on the rest.

Any other views?

I agree with you (again ) Gus:sick: :rolleyes: but I'm very flattered to be mentioned in the same breath (or sentence) as some of those guys you mention. :sorry :nice:

I don't have the 'natural' ability or the poise and style to ever reach the heights of Viktor, Nigel at al but I do desperately want to improve.

I think those of us who are more experienced can pass on tips/thoughts/ etc to less experienced dancers - if requested:p but it's fraught with problems ( mentioned on another thread).

As for judging........ :sick: there have been so many comments on this site - on various threads on the subject and of course for a competition to have any validity or credibility it must have respected judges.

If Nigel, Viktor et al still competed who would judge them ? Yes most folk can 'spot' a good dancer but some results at competitions suggest many observers and the judges are not looking for the same thing !:confused: I've certainly been stunned at some decisions - even when I respect the judges and know they are good dancers. And of course there is always the suggestion of internal politics which may or may not sway someone's decision.

As for the Aussies - only seen a few but whatI've seen is impressive :)

And as for decisions - it'll be interesting to see what happens on Sunday !:p :wink: .................one last point which may have been raised before ( I haven't been on this thread before !) doesn't the main Ceroc site mention the Scottish Competition at all :confused: if not why not:confused: :mad:

Gus
14th-October-2002, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by bill foreman
.................one last point which may have been raised before ( I haven't been on this thread before !) doesn't the main Ceroc site mention the Scottish Competition at all :confused: if not why not:confused: :mad:


Bill ... and I thought you were an intelligent bloke ... Ceroc HQ mention something happening OUTSIDE the M25??? Get a grip ... I don't think they even know there is life North of Hemel Hempstead, never mind in the cold far reaches of the M1!

May the CHAMPIONSHIPS prosper!:waycool:

Bill
15th-October-2002, 02:19 PM
The points being made here were made on another thread some time ago especially on competing and judging and especially on categories.

I suggested a while back that there was now such a leap from even 'average' advanced dancers and the very top that there should be something like an 'Open' competition so that the very best dancers could compete against each other. But would they want to ? and of course who judges N & N, V & L et al ?

And surely for this group there would be more prestige from winning than there would be in beating other more 'part time' dancers :confused: :rolleyes:


I have now danced in 2 Advanced competitions and was delighted just to get through a round and very concerned that my partner and I might be out of our depth. However well we danced we couldn't compete with the very best dancers........all those named on other replies.

I would imagine that the Beginners category was rejected because of problems of ensuring that everyone had been dancing for less than 6 months but its very dificult to verify. And would they mean dancing Ceroc or any form of dance ?

The same is true for other levels. If Intermediate is for non teachers, again does that mean teachers of any form of dance or only any form of jive? And what do you do if someone 'breaks ' a rule....disqualify them ?

Could someone else prove that someone had danced more than 6 months ? Was , or had been a teacher of some form of dancing? Was under 18 when they were competing ? What if the judges know but do nothing about it ??????

SO many questions eh:wink: and perhaps makes me wonder why I compete at all.......................... I'll think about that one...:confused:

Gus
15th-October-2002, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by bill foreman

SO many questions eh:wink: and perhaps makes me wonder why I compete at all.......................... I'll think about that one...:confused:

Depends why you are competing. I would love to compete against the best, V&L etc. .... against them there would be no pressure ... just going out and seeing just how far you are short of their standard .... would be just for the fun.

However, given the current standrad in the advanced, I think anyone who got through to the semis at Blackpool is in with a chance. The only real stars are Clayton and Jeanine, but the gap is narrowing. Who's going to be their main rivals in the 2003 champs?

I think you are being too hard on yourself. From what I've seen you and Fran and a number of other dancers from Scotland should all be competing in that section and should aim for a place on the winners rostrum (if they ever actualy get a rostrum). I'll be competing again next year .... aiming for the final, half expecting to go out before the semis. If we win, great, if not at least it will be another great experience.