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View Full Version : Keeping hold without using thumbs - HOW?



Unregistered
1st-April-2004, 02:27 PM
OK, we all know we shouldn't ever grip on with our thumbs, but some moves require 'keeping hold' at a point where its a different move if you let go. How do you hold on without using your thumbs? How do you indicate that you're going to hold on so you don't injure your partner if the're anticipating a spin and there isn't going to be one? Do you have to have a discusion before the dance that at some point you're going to do the particular move?

Gadget
1st-April-2004, 05:31 PM
Originally posted byUnregistered
OK, we all know we shouldn't ever grip on with our thumbs, but some moves require 'keeping hold' at a point where its a different move if you let go. How do you hold on without using your thumbs? How do you indicate that you're going to hold on so you don't injure your partner if the're anticipating a spin and there isn't going to be one? Do you have to have a discusion before the dance that at some point you're going to do the particular move?
Personally there is only one move that I ever have a problem with leading beginne and I sometimes use the thumb: R-R hand hold, step in R-side to R-side folding arm accross chest. Now one variant is to flatten the hand on your shoulder so that the ladie’s hand is flat on yours, then lead down towards the lady’s outside hip and they free-spin. The same lead, but with a ‘normal’ hold should just turn the lady out. I tend to lead the spin a bit too strong {:blush:} and tend to gently grip beginners hands when opening out.

Other than that, I lead with the middle finger, using the lower ‘manipulators’ for compression and the finger for tension. The forefinger can be used for latteral guidance and the middle finger is ‘dropped’ for the lady to spin round on turns. I don't think I [u]can[/i] lead with a “grip” any more.

JamesGeary
1st-April-2004, 06:00 PM
Make your hand kind of like a hook.

TheTramp
1st-April-2004, 06:14 PM
Sticky-tape.

Trampy

twoRIGHTfeet
1st-April-2004, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Personally there is only one move that I ever have a problem with leading beginne and I sometimes use the thumb: R-R hand hold, step in R-side to R-side folding arm accross chest. Now one variant is to flatten the hand on your shoulder so that the ladie’s hand is flat on yours, then lead down towards the lady’s outside hip and they free-spin. The same lead, but with a ‘normal’ hold should just turn the lady out. I tend to lead the spin a bit too strong {:blush:} and tend to gently grip beginners hands when opening out.

Other than that, I lead with the middle finger, using the lower ‘manipulators’ for compression and the finger for tension. The forefinger can be used for latteral guidance and the middle finger is ‘dropped’ for the lady to spin round on turns. I don't think I [u]can[/i] lead with a “grip” any more.
OK, thats obviously Eniglish, I know what every word in that means. I havn't a clue what you just tried to tell me though.

spindr
1st-April-2004, 08:24 PM
Ok: say for the left hand... the traditional approach is to keep your fingers together, with no gaps -- pointing to your right, so that your fingers form a "wall" between you and the follower. The lady makes a hook (upside-down "u") so that her hand bends at the 2nd and 3rd knuckles. Your hand fits between her 2nd and 3rd knuckles.

When you want to lead the lady forwards - generate tension in the handhold - then the back of your fingers will pull against the back of the lady's fingers (from her fingertip to her 2nd knuckle).

When you want to lead the lady backwards - generate compression in the handhold - then the front of your fingers will push against the lady's palm. If you are sneaky you can also use the heel of your thumb to slightly push against the front of the lady's little-finger, etc. but don't squeeze!

For learning purposes you can consider the thumb to point vertically; this will stop you gripping with it -- in practice you can just lie it down against the side of your palm. When you definitely *definitely* are not going to let go of the lady's hand then you can use your thumb to hold the lady's hand lightly -- this should be an exceptional occurence, e.g. to differentiate a yoyo lead from a hatchback.

After a while you can reduce how many fingers you use for leading -- which helps keep the handhold relaxed.

Your handhold should transform as you lead the lady to turn -- e.g. going from the hook shape, through a palm to palm grip, back to the hook shape.

Good luck,
SpinDr.

Gadget
1st-April-2004, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by spindr
When you want to lead the lady forwards - generate tension in the handhold - then the back of your fingers will pull against the back of the lady's fingers (from her fingertip to her 2nd knuckle).
"back of your fingers"?:confused: I think that it's the front: ie the fleshy bit without nails.

When you want to lead the lady backwards - generate compression in the handhold - then the front of your fingers will push against the lady's palm.
:confused: Again, I would say the back: ie where the knuckles are.
Appart from confusing me trying to work out what's the front and back of my hand, :yeah:


e.g. to differentiate a yoyo lead from a hatchback.
that's it... couldn't remember the names :blush:


Your handhold should transform as you lead the lady to turn -- e.g. going from the hook shape, through a palm to palm grip, back to the hook shape.
I don't think I have ever done it this way :sick: I always use the "spindle" method... am I doing something wrong??

spindr
1st-April-2004, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
"back of your fingers"?:confused: I think that it's the front: ie the fleshy bit without nails.

:confused: Again, I would say the back: ie where the knuckles are.
Appart from confusing me trying to work out what's the front and back of my hand, :yeah:

that's it... couldn't remember the names :blush:

I don't think I have ever done it this way :sick: I always use the "spindle" method... am I doing something wrong??

Hmmm, I guess I should use terms like palm side (instead of back of fingers) and non-palm side (instead of front of fingers) --- it seemed so obvious when I was looking at my left hand and typing what I could see :)

The going through palm to palm is a simplification -- it means you have to have adjusted the hands so that the lady can turn freely -- which is the most important bit. It also sort of helps in letting the handhold rotate as the lady turns so that you can more easily get back into the original "hook" shape handhold.

If you use a "halo" approach to turning you will probably go palm to palm but the lady's palm will be more vertical and the man's palm more horizontal.

Of course you have to find your own way of leading and you own handhold that lets you do that comfortably -- sometimes I use a chopstick style grip e.g. leading with longest finger, but keeping the first finger (nearest the thumb) free -- so that the lady's hand is then in held in a "v" sign. This gives you an extra lead -- e.g. on the left hand a free first finger can be used as a hint against the non-palm side of the lady's hand e.g. to show that I'm not leading a clockwise turn -- as that finger is obviously in the way :) But I certainly wouldn't recommend that to anyone having problems.

SpinDr.

DavidB
2nd-April-2004, 12:36 AM
"Don't use your thumb" is a bit misleading (sorry, wasn't meant to be a pun). What you should aim to do is "not hurt your partner". The thumb only gets a special mention because it is capable of a lot more damage, especially to the back of the lady's hand.

Your thumb moves in the opposite direction to your fingers. So you should only use your thumb when you need to apply pressure to the lady's hand and your fingers are facing the wrong way. Sometimes the thumb can be the easiest part of your hand to lead with, especially in some spins. I know I do this a lot, and I know at least one teacher in Australia who teaches it. However these moves are few and far between - most of the time you shouldn't need to use your thumb.

Don't be afraid to move your hand around your partner's hand. You don't always have to hold on to her fingers with your fingers. The palm of her hand, the sides of her hand,her wrist and her forearm are all perfectly ok to hold on to. But don't apply any pressure to the back of her hand. The tendons there are too exposed, and you can uasily cause tendonitis or worse.

One other thing to avoid - dont use your fingers and thumb at the same time.

David

twoRIGHTfeet
2nd-April-2004, 07:56 PM
OK, this is starting to make sense. Up till now I've been trying to literally follow the instructions to offer a flat hand and keep thumbs out of the way. Maybe keeping such a weak hold is part of why my lead isn't clear? I undertand the need to avoid injury only too well - my girlfriend almost had the tendon in her right arm by a beginner (not me!) with a vice-like grip who didn't let go for the spin part of a hatchback. However surely something should be mentioned about when to vary the grip, at least during the beginners review class or workshops?

Gadget
5th-April-2004, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by twoRIGHTfeet
...However surely something should be mentioned about when to vary the grip, at least during the beginners review class or workshops?
As far as I am aware, there are only four basic types of "grip" and they are covered when needed {at least they are up here}:
- Standard: loose draped fingers over man's.
- Turning: sliding connection that allows contact, but hands move over each other
- Spinning: no 'grip'; just compression in preperation of a spin - normally a flat hand, although could be flat hand on another part of the lady {:what:}
- Leaning: strong 'grip'; in preperation for tension moves - normally advanced moves where the hold changes to a 'ballroom' or 'butterfly' grip, or sometimes wrist-wrist grip. Normally used when a lot of the lady's weight is going to be ballanced between you, used for momentum or going into a drop.

Personally, I find that the "Thumbs to the ceiling" position is very hard to acheive (even worse to 'hold') - especially when the hand is lowered to just below your partner's waist. I keep it out of the way, but in a more natural 'pint glass holding' position.

thewacko
19th-April-2004, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by twoRIGHTfeet
OK, this is starting to make sense. Up till now I've been trying to literally follow the instructions to offer a flat hand and keep thumbs out of the way. Maybe keeping such a weak hold is part of why my lead isn't clear?

sorry you still aint got it, having a weak hold has nothing to do with your lead being unclear. I now find myself automatically removing my forfinger from under the ladies hand, as well as my thumb, as i find it helps in the return of the lady.

Your lead will come from your movement af your hand and arm, and the tension between your hand and your partners. silly but I know what I mean but to try and explain it in writing is bl**dy difficult, have words with your local teacher or taxi dancers, I am sure they will be able to demonstrate what you need to do which is much easier than reading about it

:cheers: good luck

Bill
20th-April-2004, 04:45 PM
When taxi-ing we usually show the men how to lead with just one or two fingers around whcih the woman's hand can move.

When I started Ceroc I used to grip on under the belief that if I didn't really hold on she'd 'escape' :sick: but the analogy I use is to get them to think about playing golf where the tighter you grip the worse your swing ( at least the way I play :tears: ).

Using the fingertips or the 'front' of the hands from the knuckle to the top finger joint is enough to lead and allows the woman to move and turn unhindered. At least it seems to work but then most of the women up here ( and those I've danced with elsewhere) follow really well.

But then David described this much better and more eloquently .... just thought I'd add my twopence worth.

MartinHarper
25th-October-2004, 11:43 AM
having a weak hold has nothing to do with your lead being unclear

One of the things I need to lead is the difference between "we are connected, please don't let go" and "we are no longer connected, please don't hold on". Having too weak a hold can make that distinction unclear. Conversely, if I'm having trouble leading the difference to my partner, I can compensate by increasing the strength of my hold.


I always use the "spindle" method... am I doing something wrong??

Ditto, though I call it a "two fingered return". When I remember, I'm trying to practice the flat palm during return technique, but when I do it tends to turn into a "spindle" with four fingers instead of two... :-(

Andy McGregor
25th-October-2004, 11:58 AM
Another trick would be to ask someone who teaches to show you how it's done :whistle:

unregistered
25th-October-2004, 12:10 PM
Like andy says, it will probably be easier if you ask someone to show you as describing the technique in the written word is pretty difficult, but DO NOT STENGTHEN YOUR GRIP, the "grip" is just a loose hand hold as is always described at the beginning of every class!!!!!!!!!!!!!

forgot me password again but I am THEWACKO

Gus
25th-October-2004, 12:43 PM
Another trick would be to ask someone who teaches to show you how it's done :whistle:Funny ..I've been trying to teach lead/follow in a number of differnt mini-workshops over the last month. The dancers have ranged form beginners to experienced dancers ... and I'm surprised at how hard it is to get people to relax the grip and yet not over-anticipate. I think it comes back to sage words said elsewhere .. we teach people the dance before we teach them the basic of how to. (or something like that).

thewacko
25th-October-2004, 01:05 PM
:yeah:

MartinHarper
25th-October-2004, 01:24 PM
Another trick would be to ask someone who teaches to show you how it's done :whistle:
flat palm return, or leading a connection vs leading no connection?

Gordon J Pownall
25th-October-2004, 02:47 PM
Sticky-tape.

Trampy


Tchhh......how out dated....

Try VELCRO (tm) :whistle:

Almost an Angel
25th-October-2004, 06:22 PM
Funny ..I've been trying to teach lead/follow in a number of differnt mini-workshops over the last month. The dancers have ranged form beginners to experienced dancers ... and I'm surprised at how hard it is to get people to relax the grip and yet not over-anticipate. I think it comes back to sage words said elsewhere .. we teach people the dance before we teach them the basic of how to. (or something like that).

:yeah:

When teaching beginners we always try to run through the basics of lead and follow so they know how what they're supposed to be doing, even if it takes them a few weeks for it to click into place. :grin: We use a few exercises to re-inforce the lead and follow principal.

There is the very basic train buffers approach - ensuring the lady provides an equal and opposite force to the leaders while they move forward and back, however you can take this on a step by introducing trust into the equation by having the ladies close their eyes and do the same again. The difference is the lady cannot anticipate as she cannot see and learns to trust and follow the leader rather than race them. :clap:

spindr
25th-October-2004, 06:28 PM
One of the things I need to lead is the difference between "we are connected, please don't let go" and "we are no longer connected, please don't hold on". Having too weak a hold can make that distinction unclear. Conversely, if I'm having trouble leading the difference to my partner, I can compensate by increasing the strength of my hold.

First thought, take your hand away quickly if you don't want the lady to take it again.

Second thought(?), use less fingers and keep the ones in use long and straight when you want to release hold (don't keep them hooked) -- even if the lady keeps grip it makes it much easier to slide your fingers out of her hand.

Alternatively, try making breaking the handhold really clear -- at least one teacher used to suggest throwing the lady's hand away like a frisbee, when leading spins.

Moves like hallelujahs and combs have a natural "breakage" in them, if all else fails lead one.

SpinDr.

MartinHarper
25th-October-2004, 07:14 PM
If I increase the temperature of my room from 5° to 6°, I am increasing the heat of the room, yet the room is still cold.

Gadget
26th-October-2004, 08:49 AM
:confused: eh?

Trousers
27th-October-2004, 08:51 AM
I'm probably gonna get slated for this but I USE MY THUMBS

I indicate a whole range of things half of them without noticing such as

OI! I'm trying to be in charge now!

There was a beat there!

Don't let go again!

NO! I said don't let go!!!

Watch out something different is going to happen.



But what I don't do is make a permanent grip. Surely the point of the no thumbs rule-ette is to allow free movement of hands.

I feel this is more of a rule for the ladies because of the lead potential of my opposing digit. Having said that as every bloke knows when he dances with a woman who knows her onions and dance floor awarness a swift thumb nail in the back of your hand can often save you from being stomped on by the couple behind.

So come on lets hear it for thumbs.
Evolution took a long time to give them to us - lets give 'em the respect they deserve.

latinlover
27th-October-2004, 11:25 AM
I'm probably gonna get slated for this but I USE MY THUMBS

I indicate a whole range of things half of them without noticing such as

OI! I'm trying to be in charge now!

There was a beat there!

Don't let go again!

NO! I said don't let go!!!

Watch out something different is going to happen.



But what I don't do is make a permanent grip. Surely the point of the no thumbs rule-ette is to allow free movement of hands.

I feel this is more of a rule for the ladies because of the lead potential of my opposing digit. Having said that as every bloke knows when he dances with a woman who knows her onions and dance floor awarness a swift thumb nail in the back of your hand can often save you from being stomped on by the couple behind.

So come on lets hear it for thumbs.
Evolution took a long time to give them to us - lets give 'em the respect they deserve.


:yeah: :yeah:

Clive Long
3rd-January-2005, 06:26 PM
I'm strictly of the "no-thumbs" camp.

For some reason it really irritates me.

I feel beginners grip on for dear life so they can feel connection. I apologise, but I always comment on the "thumb vice" to a beginner and show them a way to hold securely but "flexibly".


I know Ceroc / MJ has the philosophy "come to one lesson and you'll be dancing by the end of the evening". I applaud this roundly as (in my purely subjective opinion) people are put off any form of dance by too much early focus on technique which always impies correcting what the person is doing, which can be taken as criticism (unless you are as thick-skinned as me). Also too much technique early on is information-overload and gets in the way of the main point of the whole thing - enjoyment :clap:

However.

I feel that beginners' classes should always comment on appropriate hand holds. The "Modern Jive for beginners" video describes a simple hold well.

Pushing my luck, in my opinion beginners classes should comment on VERY Basic feet placement - left foot here, right foot there IF it makes the move flow better. But LESS IS MORE in the feet area.

That's it from me.

Clive

Minnie M
3rd-January-2005, 07:37 PM
I'm strictly of the "no-thumbs" camp.

For some reason it really irritates me.

I feel beginners grip on for dear life so they can feel connection. I apologise, but I always comment on the "thumb vice" to a beginner and show them a way to hold securely but "flexibly".


I am a little confused Clive - I thought the "thumb vice" was a lead thing :confused: didn't realise that followers did it too - or am I wrongly assuming that you are a lead :blush:

Baruch
3rd-January-2005, 10:38 PM
I am a little confused Clive - I thought the "thumb vice" was a lead thing :confused: didn't realise that followers did it too - or am I wrongly assuming that you are a lead :blush:
If Clive's experience is anything like mine, then the answer is definitely YES. Followers do it too. In fact, I've nearly had my arms wrenched out of their sockets many times by ladies who held on with the "iron grip of death" - and I'm not just talking about beginners either :sad:

ChrisA
3rd-January-2005, 10:54 PM
Followers do it too. In fact, I've nearly had my arms wrenched out of their sockets many times by ladies who held on with the "iron grip of death" - and I'm not just talking about beginners either :sad:
...... :yeah:

Personally I don't subscribe to the school of thought that seems to require the guy to be immune to pain.

If she hurts me enough (which isn't all that much, I'm only a guy, after all) I'll tell her to stop gripping, and if she won't, it's wet haddock time :devil:

Chris

Clive Long
3rd-January-2005, 11:03 PM
...... :yeah:


If she hurts me enough (which isn't all that much, I'm only a guy, after all) I'll tell her to stop gripping, and if she won't, it's wet haddock time :devil:

Chris

Wet Haddock :what:

How do you lead that !?

ChrisA
3rd-January-2005, 11:08 PM
Wet Haddock :what:

How do you lead that !?
Not telling you till tomorrow. You said you weren't gonna post no more tonight :wink:

MartinHarper
4th-January-2005, 10:10 PM
When women grip on, my problem is normally that by doing so they are interfering with the lead/follow, rather than causing actual pain. They tend to grip using fingers and palm, rather than a "thumb vice". When leading a "gripper", I try to make a conscious effort to keep my fingers and thumb together, and avoid any fancy one-fingered leading, lest I lose a digit.

It does seem that men are more prone to gripping on than women. I suspect this is because when a woman holds on she rapidly discovers that she can't easily follow moves with push spins, etc, whereas when a man grips on, the only indication that he's doing something wrong is the gritted teeth of his partner.

Baruch
5th-January-2005, 01:33 AM
When women grip on, my problem is normally that by doing so they are interfering with the lead/follow, rather than causing actual pain. They tend to grip using fingers and palm, rather than a "thumb vice".
Oh, I don't know. I've come across quite a few who use the "thumb vice" quite strongly. Then we're talking actual pain. Normally I'm happy to dance with anyone of any level, but when it comes to persistent thumb-grippers, if they're still like it after a few weeks (or even months) then I stop asking them to dance. That way I don't go home with aching shoulders or elbows at the end of the night.

Graham
5th-January-2005, 11:44 AM
When leading a "gripper", I try to make a conscious effort to keep my fingers and thumb together, and avoid any fancy one-fingered leading, lest I lose a digit.
When leading a "gripper" I find that one-fingered leading is a really good technique to counter the problem, as you can break contact much more easily. ( :worthy: Thanks to DavidB for teaching me this :worthy: )

BeeBee
5th-January-2005, 03:10 PM
Make your hand kind of like a hook.

:rofl: Simple but effective!

Beebs

johnthehappyguy
5th-January-2005, 05:55 PM
When leading a "gripper" I find that one-fingered leading is a really good technique to counter the problem, as you can break contact much more easily. ( :worthy: Thanks to DavidB for teaching me this :worthy: )

Hi Graham,

I have some difficulty with "grippers" too.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain any particular technique to avoid getting your one finger pulled off. :sick:

I will be in Glasgow :worthy: tonight, as there is no dancing in Edinburgh thias week, and so will try to look you up for advice.

thanks,

Johnthehappyguy :nice:

Graham
5th-January-2005, 06:19 PM
I will be in Glasgow :worthy: tonight, as there is no dancing in Edinburgh thias week, and so will try to look you up for advice.
Great - look forward to seeing you there.

johnthehappyguy
6th-January-2005, 05:12 PM
thanks Graham for your words of wisdom, :clap:

Your demonstration of the technique made me feel like a right numpty. :sick: :sick:

So simple.

I did try to take your advice, keeping my digit in a good direction. I guess it is another thing for me to try to concentrate on while dancing, until it becomes second nature.

I did not have to use the retraction technique you described, as the dancers were all so good, with no grippers around.

Dancing in Glasgow :clap: is a real joy as there are so many brill dancers.

thanks again for your help and advice. :cheers:

johnthehappyguy :nice:

Graham
7th-January-2005, 12:37 AM
Happy to help, John - glad you found it useful! :grin: That's what taxis are here for!

Unregistered
7th-January-2005, 01:00 AM
OK, we all know we shouldn't ever grip on with our thumbs, but some moves require 'keeping hold' at a point where its a different move if you let go.


Just use your thumb.

Unregistered
7th-January-2005, 01:01 AM
OK, we all know we shouldn't ever grip on with our thumbs, but some moves require 'keeping hold' at a point where its a different move if you let go.


Just use your thumb. (lightly)

Minnie M
7th-January-2005, 01:19 AM
wot is goin' on :confused:

bigdjiver
7th-January-2005, 12:33 PM
It would appear that someone has worked out that if leading novice ladies without any form of grip that some of them will disappear off in their own selected direction every so often. If the leader insists on "no thumbs" it is just one more thing that a newcomer has to contend with, along with a new environment, culture and people. One more barrier between them being simply able to enjoy dancing.

Sadly, they do not seem to be able to express this view even under a forum name, perhaps because this forum is mostly populated by people much further up the ladder, who do not remember stepping on the rung marked "thumbs", or being grateful that it was there.

senorita
7th-January-2005, 01:16 PM
Wet Haddock :what:

How do you lead that !?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

johnthehappyguy
30th-January-2005, 10:37 PM
Dealing with grippers - holding onto your hand too tightly -has been covered on this thread.

However I have encountered a more serious manifestation of gripping. :what:

I was asked for a dance by a lady who is able to follow plenty of intermediate moves. Several times during the dance, she grasped my wrist when my hand was above her head. :eek: :eek: :eek:

This happens every time we have danced together, and I find it difficult to deal with.

Any advice ?

:cheers:

johnthehappyguy :nice:

Banana Man
31st-January-2005, 10:35 AM
Dealing with grippers ............. she grasped my wrist when my hand was above her head. :eek: :eek: :eek:

This happens every time we have danced together, and I find it difficult to deal with.

Any advice ?

:cheers:

johnthehappyguy :nice:

Say something - even if it's only ouch!

Gadget
31st-January-2005, 01:44 PM
Several times during the dance, she grasped my wrist when my hand was above her head. :eek: :eek: :eek:
How?
The only time that your hand should be above the lady's head is when she is turning under it; normally when only one hand is used, the lady pivots arround a loose finger or slides palm over palm. Is it the spare hand that grabs? Or sliding from a palm/palm lead?

johnthehappyguy
31st-January-2005, 02:47 PM
How?
The only time that your hand should be above the lady's head is when she is turning under it; normally when only one hand is used, the lady pivots arround a loose finger or slides palm over palm. Is it the spare hand that grabs? Or sliding from a palm/palm lead?


It does seem a bit bizarre. :what:

We are both fairly tall, she slightly shorter than me

Doing a simple basic first move, as I lead the return, the lady is supposed to pivot loosley around my finger(s).

However as I bring my hand up (medium pace of track) she loses contact and then clamps my wrist. :eek:

I have not had this type of difficulty with any other lady, and am told I am a reasonable lead ( at least for beginners moves.) :innocent:

I suppose that I must be bringing my hand up too fast for her in particular, and for her I should be doing it slower.

It is very disconcerting once it happens, as the clamping effectively stops me from moving anywhere for fear of injury. :confused:



johnthehappyguy :nice:

Gadget
31st-January-2005, 03:16 PM
If you are loosing contact, then yes; there is something wrong:

- Make sure that the lead into the exit is clear; return your right hand to your shoulder before taking it to turn the lady out. If you are lazy in this lead, it will show on the exit.

- Use the right hand on the hip to guide the lady into the turn infront of you rather than relying soley on the hand; it gives greater control of her position on the dance floor.

- Try to be conceous of applying constant tension in the initial fragment of the lead out; leading away from your body slightly before raising the hand and deminishing the tension smoothly to nothing when it's above her center.

- Use a "pivot finger" rather than a "full hand slide" method for maintaining contact above the lady's head; more controll and less room for miss-interpretation.


Alternativly, treat it as a hi-jack; you have been blocked. Your turn to follow. :what:

MartinHarper
31st-January-2005, 05:34 PM
A simple basic first move, as I lead the return [...] as I bring my hand up (medium pace of track) she loses contact...

Options:
* Use your thumb/palm on the back of her hand. IE, grip more.
* Push your fingers into the base of her hand during the step immediately before the return. More friction, so harder to lose contact.
* Wait. She'll become a better follower in due course.

Andy McGregor
31st-January-2005, 08:07 PM
Options:
* Use your thumb/palm on the back of her hand. IE, grip more.
* Push your fingers into the base of her hand during the step immediately before the return. More friction, so harder to lose contact.
* Wait. She'll become a better follower in due course.

Further option: speak to your partner, she's human and will respond in a positive manner if you're friendly/jolly and make light of it :flower:

johnthehappyguy
23rd-February-2005, 02:35 PM
Further option: speak to your partner, she's human and will respond in a positive manner if you're friendly/jolly and make light of it :flower:

thanks for your advice everyone.

I was going to wait until I met the lady again so I could say it worked.

I have not met up with her again -yet !

thanks,
johnthehappyguy :nice:

drathzel
23rd-February-2005, 03:14 PM
* Wait. She'll become a better follower in due course.


Is this always the case?

MartinHarper
24th-February-2005, 12:53 AM
My experience is that beginner women either become intermediates in due course, or they leave - but you'd have to ask more experienced leads than I for a definitive answer.

LMC
1st-November-2005, 10:28 AM
Thread resurrection...

Is it just me, or is there an epidemic of death grips at some venues?

I have taken action. There has been more than one occasion where I have asked the taxi dancers to cover 'handhold' (again) in their review classes, and asked the teacher to 'remind' intermediates that thumbs should not be used. Last night was one of those occasions. OK, I'm going to name and shame: Finchley. Hell, even one of the (female) taxi-dancers was over-using her thumbs, wish I'd said something, but see below....

At one venue I used go to regularly (and now infrequently), the problem is so bad that at one stage, I was convinced that it was my connection that was at fault :( - it's certainly not perfect, but I can maintain it just as well with leaders who don't feel the need to use their thumbs, so it can't be that awful.

The worst thing is that if I do venture to say something - and I *do* try to be nice - I often get a "No-one else has ever said anything..." reaction. And, unlike me, they have been dancing for over (number) year(s) - or are a taxi-dancer - so they must be right... So most of the time now I just grin and bear it, unless my fingers really are being wrenched. Even if it doesn't actually hurt, a 'too tight' handhold can throw the follow off-balance (well, it can me...)

It never seems to get better :( - even after Adam mentioned the whole 'thumb thing' in last night's lesson guys were *still* doing it.

If all of us who get hurt by thumbs actually *say something* (including me - I don't often enough) then maybe we'll get somewhere?

David Bailey
1st-November-2005, 10:54 AM
Last night was one of those occasions. OK, I'm going to name and shame: Finchley.
:confused: I wasn't that keen on the class, but to be fair Adam did explicitly say "don't use the thumbs guys" a couple of times, which I thought was good...

Having said that, back when I started, there was a lot of talk about the proper grip, and how thumb's were the Devil's Work or something, does that not get covered so much now in beginner's classes?

Slight caveat: I don't believe thumb usage is the work of the Devil now, but it's a bit like all the other rules - it's a good lies-to-children approach to band usage of thumbs altogether to be safe.


It never seems to get better :( - even after Adam mentioned the whole 'thumb thing' in last night's lesson guys were *still* doing it.
Oops, that'll teach me to reply before reading... :blush:

LMC
1st-November-2005, 11:03 AM
Having said that, back when I started, there was a lot of talk about the proper grip, and how thumb's were the Devil's Work or something, does that not get covered so much now in beginner's classes?
Varies from teacher to teacher and even from week to week :shrug:

It's not quite so bad with absolute beginners, 'cos we can 'demonstrate' to them how much easier it is to actually NOT use their thumbs (plus they respect us new intermediates 'cos they don't know any better mwa-ha-ha-ha). The worst is the "advanced" dancers - there is one guy with a particularly vice-like grip with whom I have a mutual agreement not to dance any more. Interestingly, I am the only one who has ever commented - as is one of my friends. And presumably the teacher at that venue (not Finchley) who I had a quiet word with - she knew him well and said she's talked to him a number of times - the guy's grip seriously is a menace.

The only solution I can see is for all sufferers to complain - I hate being the "only one" who apparently has a problem - especially when I *know* from talking to other girls (we do that sometimes) that I'm NOT the only one :mad:


Slight caveat: I don't believe thumb usage is the work of the Devil now, but it's a bit like all the other rules - it's a good lies-to-children approach to band usage of thumbs altogether to be safe.
:yeah: (a LIGHT thumb contact may be necessary to maintain connection on some moves - but literally a 'touch' NOT a grip)

Ruby
24th-February-2008, 08:30 PM
LMC, sounds like you and I are on the same page here.

I'd like to resurrect this thread because as of late... the "thumbs" thing is starting to really get on my nerves... both within Modern Jive and Lindy-Hop.

Here are a few rules of "thumb" about thumbs that come to mind from my perspective:
1) You don't need 'em. If you chopped 'em off, you could still be a competition quality dancer. You also don't need to pinch your partner's hand between any other sets of fingers. It's absolutely unnecessary and very irritating/distracting/dangerous.
a) irritating: it irritates the skin on my hands to have them chafed and gripped for an entire night of dancing.
b) distracting: a hard grip on my hands distracts me from all the other cues that I need to follow you. it puts my brain into my hands rather than in the rest of my body.
c) dangerous: occasionally, people lose their footing, or a move turns into a joint-lock. i need to be able to let go and stabilize myself. If you're dipping me and drop me, don't worry.... i'll take you down with me. no need to grip.

2) If you had proper tension/compression between you and your partner, you wouldn't need to grip/experience grip. Check yourself... do you as a lead or a follow provide matching tension/compression? All you need is a pound of pressure to lead/follow a move. Make enough contact to feel the skin squish between you and your partner... no more is needed except in rare cases. An exception might be slippery sweaty hands. If you're constantly slipping from your partner's grip, maybe he/she feels the need to grip you to keep you from escaping.

3) Most leads and follows don't actually realize they're gripping their partner. It's often a stress-response to the complex action of thinking while dancing. As of late, it has occurred to me that someone is hurting me, they actually don't really mean to... they're ignorant of the fact that what they're doing hurts.
a) Therefore... a gentle reminder should aleive the annoyance of the offending thumb and let the dancer know that they should be aware of it.
b) Although I don't always speak up when I feel an annoying thumb lead, I try to do it when I feel I can be diplomatic. You're not doing anyone a favor by "being nice" because "being nice" usually means
i) never asking the person to dance again/ never accepting a dance again
ii) badmouthing them behind their back, which doesn't actually help them fix the problem
iii) never giving yourself the opportunity to find out if you are partially responsible for the problem
iv) leading the dancer to think they're awesome, and continuing to put other people through the same suffering
c) providing feedback/criticism on the floor is often considered poor floor-craft. However, in the case of pain or possible injury, I think it should absolutely be done to improve the enjoyment for all.

4) If you feel you need to talk with someone on the dance floor about a move/technique that makes you uncomfortable, be diplomatic. No need to back-pedal and apologize for existing but a gentle, "I don't know if you've noticed, but you are doing xyz... which is a bit uncomfortable for me." Or... turn it on yourself, "I notice that you're squeezing my hand/gripping me for dear life... can I do something to make it easier for us to connect?"

5) Here are some ways to deal with chilly responses:
a) "I've never gotten that complaint before."
response: "That doesn't invalidate what I'm saying."
or: "That's because few people are comfortable discussing these things on the dance-floor."
or, if necessary: "That's because no one else has the balls to tell you."
or... my personal favorite: "Actually, all the girls call you "Thumbs McGee. I thought you should know." :wink:

b) "That's what I was taught."
response: "Perhaps you could consider other options."
or: "There are many approaches. I find this one more comfortable."
or, even better: "Who is your teacher? I'd like to have a word with them." :grin:

What's the worst that could happen? The person that you HATE dancing with hears you complain, thinks you're rude and never asks you to dance again. Great... one less crappy dance. OR... he/she changes their style and you get to have better dances. OR... you find out that you could do a few things to make it easier for them to dance with you.

I think the last three items should also be liberally applied to any other move that is dangerous/inappropriate/uncomfortable. People who have bad technique have it because they're not getting the right feedback about their dancing. Some people choose to take private lessons or communicate with friends about their technique, but many don't. But... I doubt that people get into social dance with the deliberate intention of making life miserable for others. Get over trying to "be nice" by being silent. Silence = Consent. There are times and places where a person may not be open to feedback... or it may not be appropriate for you to give it... sort that out yourself. Friendly open communication makes a better dance community, and that is way more fun.

Thanks for reading...

StokeBloke
24th-February-2008, 11:16 PM
...loads of really good pointers and advice...
Ruby! If you keep posting such well thought out, useful and down right sensible messages here you'll be run out of town!! :D:D:D

Seriously, good advice. As a lead I would like to say that if I ever hurt or upset any follow by my technique I would welcome being told! :flower:

David Bailey
25th-February-2008, 09:05 AM
I had a dance like this on Saturday night. She was one of those people who give a little extra "tug" on your arm at the end of every step-back. No reason for it, she just did it. She wasn't a beginner by any means - and she didn't seem excessively nervous either.

After 30 seconds of this, it was getting on my nerves (it doesn't take much), and so I decided to try to fix it, by leading a finger-tip hold.

Unfortunately, she responded to this by gripping the fingertip with her entire fist! :what: - there wasn't much I could do about that, apart from gently prise my finger away and lead other things... A case where the cure was worse than the disease, in fact.

robd
26th-February-2008, 09:58 AM
What a great post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/455857-post59.html)by Ruby :respect:

Steven666
26th-February-2008, 02:08 PM
I had a dance like this on Saturday night. She was one of those people who give a little extra "tug" on your arm at the end of every step-back. No reason for it, she just did it. She wasn't a beginner by any means - and she didn't seem excessively nervous either.

After 30 seconds of this, it was getting on my nerves (it doesn't take much), and so I decided to try to fix it, by leading a finger-tip hold.

Unfortunately, she responded to this by gripping the fingertip with her entire fist! :what: - there wasn't much I could do about that, apart from gently prise my finger away and lead other things... A case where the cure was worse than the disease, in fact.

So why didn't you tell her? Courage?

David Bailey
26th-February-2008, 03:14 PM
So why didn't you tell her? Courage?
More like apathy - I don't usually give out unsolicited advice.

He habit wasn't actually hurting me, it was just annoying me and throwing me a bit off-balance. And after all, I could be wrong (hey, anything's possible).