UK Jive -Blackpool

[Heather]

:waycool: Just back fromthe UK Open Jive Competition in Blackpool. A thoroughly enjoyable event , where lots of fun was had by all of the Scottish contingent!!
:grin: CONGRATULATIONS!!! , to Bill,Laura and Lisa for taking second place in the Double Trouble event, but it has to be said that ,in my opinion,the judges should have nipped out to Vision Express ( only next door to the Winter Gardens), for a quick eyetest!!!!! I am sure that most of you who were there would agreethat the Aberdonians were robbed!:reallymad In fact, some of the judges other decisions could also be called into question!
Congratulations also, to the 'Milk Tray Boys' - two lovely lads who came third in the Intermediate class- they provided the audience with a SUBERB display of dancing and lots of laughs and smiles- PURE ENTERTAINMENT!!!!(Is this the start of a new trend?-I spotted Scot and Obi dancing together in Marco's last week).
As usual, us Scots came in the party mood, determined to have a good time and pretty well succeeded, dancing the night away until we were eventually thrown out after 2 am!!
On the downside, someone should sack the male DJ - I don't know what I expected, but there was far too much obscure disco stuff and not enough swing/ blues/ rock n' roll music, which my sister assures me, they played lots of last year. ( Don't worry Scot, you are still top of the DJ list!!). Again in the Intermediate heats, they played music more suited to Salsa/Merengue ( Is that a dance or a Cake?) and so was a bit difficult for non Ceroc/Leroc dancers.
A BIG BLACK MARK to some of our Southern counterparts who refused dances from some of the lovely ladies in our company.
Rudeness and bad manners are inexcusable and it is virtually unheard of for a gentleman to refuse a lady a dance here in Scotland. If a man needs to sit out for a rest- then all he needs to do is explain politely, one of our company was told to get lost ( or words to that effect).
Finally, a gold star goes to the lovely Roy, who at one point in the evening was incognito as an exhibit from the TutanKhamen Exhibition in the hall next door!! All in all the weekend was SUPERB!!!!!!!

[Dreadful Scathe]

Jive championships were great fun- and I agree totally 'Bill wuz robbed' - you never noted that Chris Docker of Edinburgh got 3rd place in the 'take a chance' competition - could this be cos he'll go on about it for months anyway :rolleyes:

[Gus]

Heather,

Glad you enjoyed the event, like most people I thought it was a superb event, even better than last year.

Intersting points about the judging. I hope you won't take offence when I say there tends to be an element of partisanship when judging the results. The biggest contention seemed to be the Double Trouble. the Welsh LeRoc bunch all though the three girld from Cardiff should have won, The scotties were calling for Bill and many thought John's performance was head and shoulders above the rest. I thought that all three teams were excellent but at the end of the day, though you might not personaly agree with the result, you can't really argue with the calibre of the judges. They are quite simply the best there are, and as a Ceroc instructor myself I still include the Ceroc fraternity in that statement.

I've got my own differences of opinion on some of the judges decision but thats life. Likewise I would have prefered a different type of music, but that would be to have more chart and club music ... rather than the predominance of classic and swing music.

So, at the end of the day, I think that everyone will still have their own opinion as to who won or not, but all competitors have to accept the decision of the judges.

If Ceroc Scotland put on a event I think they could do a lot worse than to leran from the experienec of Chance to Dance. I think that there would be a lot of interest from the Midlands to compete.

[Tiggerbabe]

Well, I'm shattered - but boy was it worth it! Have to agree with Heather and Gus that it was a fabulous weekend. I thought the Friday night party was great and Saturday was even better!
I know that everyone can't agree on the judging, and it is true to say that you always want your friends to win - still think Bill and the girls were robbed though!
The atmosphere was great, the venue superb! Music was a bit iffy sometimes. The showcase dancing was fantastic and the arials something else -don't worry guys I'm not expecting you to try to throw me about like that! Do they teach different moves down south or do they just have more style workshops?
I think it's just a bit strange that they allow the teachers to compete with the rest of the punters - shouldn't they have a category all of their own? And how about a senior section for those of us who are climbing up the hill - or are already over the top and heading back to the base camp?
I wish we could have a Scottish event - I'm sure it would be well attended, maybe not from the London crowd but definitely those a bit further North.
Spare a thought for poor Daniel O'Donnel, who was still signing autographs and having his picture taken, when we left at the back of 2am! He wasn't dancing, by the way, think he's a singer or something??????????????????

Wonder if my hubby would mind if I went to London too???

[John S]

Excellent weekend, superb venue, standard of dancing excellent and much higher than expected (which is my excuse for being weeded out early on!):(

Much more relaxed than the London Ceroc championships, not the same frenetic dashing from event to event, and a big plus was that most people could sit at tables at ground level and see what was going on, rather than struggling to see as at Hammersmith.

I agree with Gus (nice to know there are readers down south) - judging is always going to be a bit subjective and all 3 medallist trios in the Double Trouble were excellent. Having seen (and gasped at) John Sweeney's routine already at London I must admit to being a bit disappointed that it was more or less unchanged, so I really watched Bill and the girls more, and they were brilliant. :) :) :)

Congrats too to Chris for his 3rd place in the Take a Chance, and don't forget that Elsie and Jen each reached the final too and might well have got a place too. Same with Elsie and Brian in the Intermediate event - but that's back to judging the judges again!

Oh, and as there was only one team entry, who naturally picked up the prize money, there's an opportunity there for aspiring choreographers!

I didn't think much of the music either - no problem with the difficult stuff during the competitions, as it certainly challenged many people and perhaps brought out the best in others, but for the freestyle sessions it would have been nice to have more familiar music. Personal taste possibly.

Enough nitpicking, though - an excellent weekend and nice to see so many people from Scotland.:)

[Franck]

Hi guys,

Great to hear you had such a fantastic time in Blackpool, the week-end sounds like it was brilliant.
Once again, congratulations to all finalists / medallists from Scotland, it is great to see such an active presence from Scotland. Well done all.:nice:

Re. an event in Scotland, there will almost certainly be a couple of big events in Scotland.
First of all the Scottish Championships (still being worked on at the moment).
Second, as this is the 10th Anniversary of Ceroc in Scotland this year (the first night opened in Glasgow in September 1992), I am hoping to have a huge party in September / October this year... I will keep you posted, as I am still looking at ways of making it extra special !!! :wink:

Cheers,

Franck.

[Fox]

Yeah, was a great weekend, though I must admit I pegged out at midnight after the compo..(to scared of turning into a pumpkin...hehehehe). Anyway, the quality of the dancers were excellent though I still think Bill and the girls wuz robbed at double trouble, however they were all good. I'd definitely go back next year, this time maybe not drink so much red wine the night before...(hic).
btw, I never knew the southern lot refused to dance with the ladies, bad form....very bad form. The milk tray guys were superb and definitely deserved the award, and not just for novelty either, they danced superbly. I must agree with Heather too, there was a time when the music was just awful, I was asked up to dance and danced thru 3 songs and never realised it. Ahhhh bring back the birdie song!!...NOT!...timeless classics...lol.
OMG!!....Daniel O'Donnell, I've never seen the like before, poor guy.....there was a queue of blue rinses for hours. If that doesn't drive ya to drink then I dunno...lol. I have a great pic of Bill and the girls, I could post here but would have to check with them first.

Anyways, Excellent weekend!..roll on next year!

Fox
~heading to gym so he can throw sheena about...hehehhe~

[Bill]

Thought I'd posted a reply but it doesn't seem to be there...but I never have been much of a wizz on computers.

Thanks again for all the positive comments from frineds and from dancers from other clubs. Had a great time and I have to say there were only 1 decision I really didn't agree with and as Gus says it is always down to personal bias when you watch friends dancing but the girls and I were delighted to be placed, especially as it was the first time we had danced together in public. SO we have no complaints. Indeed Laura was quoted as syaing she felt the 3 girls should have won, or at least come second ! Thanks Lisa !!

However, a friend of mine and her dance partner made the final of the advanced competition and danced superbly and I think deserved at least second place so well done Helen and Craig from down Huddersfield way !!!!!

While the girls and I may have won a medal all the dancers from Scotland should be congratulated for making it down and showing dancers from all over the country that the standard here is pretty good !!!!!! And a very special thanks to Fran for not only helping me into the second round of the advanced but for getting to the final of the Lucky Dip.

See you all soon.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Just a comment on the 3 girls that came 3rd in the double trouble. There was no way they were going to be placed higher than that as they danced a showcase and not double trouble - most of their moves were not lead/follow moves and i think if the unplaced 3 teams had been better, they wouldnt have been in the top 3 at all.

Just an opinion :)

Whos up for the caberet next year ? It was an automatic 350 pound payment for the only team that bothered to enter - must be a fair chance of winning :). (not that £350 splits into 20 or so very well)

[Gus]

Interesting point made by Messr Scathe. The point was made that some of the double troubles may have been relying on choreograhed moves ..... but for the most part it seemed that all the 'Trouble' competitors seemed to be doing that .... and I think that seems to be par for the course.

I'm a bit more curous as to the level of apparent choreographed moves in the 'freestyle'. Watching videos from previous competitons ... and particularly in the advanced class at Blackpool, there seemed to be real evidence of some dancers using set patterns, sometimes regardless of the music. This may look slick but is it freestyle?? :confused: Answers on the back of a post card please.

PS Frank .... are you going to put on a Competition ... if so the North West posse would love to support it.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
PS Frank .... are you going to put on a Competition ... if so the North West posse would love to support it.
Yes, we are definitely having a Scottish Championship this year...
2002 happens to be the 10th anniversary of Ceroc in Scotland (first night was in Autumn 1992 in Glasgow) and there will be a lot of special events.
Scot is working very hard on it at the moment and I am sure he will be very grateful for your support.:waycool:

Cheers,

Franck.

P.S. I agree re. choreographed routines in freestyle events, but I suppose the line becomes blurred when you have been dancing for years and know some tracks inside out, to the point where you end up freestyling in a choreographed fashion...
It's a tough one, and I do not envy the judges.:sick:

[Tiggerbabe]

Hi there Scathe!

Can't speak for everyone but the Dundee crowd are definitely up for a cabaret next year. We were talking about it on the way home and it would be such fun! Lots of work though, and somebody would need to take control. I think the Edinburgh crew - Elsie for sure! and also the Aberdeen gang would love to take part.
Was there anyone from Glasgow in Blackpool?
I'm sure we could do just as well as some of the teams from London last year. The money is not important, as you say it wouldn't add up to very much and you have to win to get it anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[John S]

03.55 am, Sheena????? You must have been still running on adrenaline after your Aberdeen shenanigans!!!!:D

There were certainly enough good dancers from Scotland who were at Blackpool to put on a pretty good cabaret performance, if we are determined.

As well as the obvious ones like a theme, the music, a routine and somewhere to practice (how big's your living room, Sheena??:D) I think it also needs someone who is acknowledged as the leader and can take difficult decisions like choosing who takes part and who does what - eg the winning (only) team at Blackpool was clearly led by George, who teaches at the Prestwich club in Manchester.

So..... we have the will and the ability - now we need the creativity and the leadership. Any suggestions?:cool:

[Bill]

On the subject of choreographed moves, I'd agree that in most of the freestlye competitions dancers will have some moves they want to do during a record whether it be intermediate, advanced or the Double Trouble.

The most important thing is whether the dance and movement goes with the music. There's no point learning a sequence of moves unless they do follow the beat of the music that's playing. I've seen couples dance to a song and completely ignoring the music in order to get their moves in. There was one couple in the advanced final that seemed to be doing exactly that

As for a team event. Good diea but as has been sadi..........who decides who is part of the team, who decides on the routine, the rehearsal time and venue, the costumes etc etc.......How would it affect the morale in a class if some dancers were 'rejected' ? Anyway. good luck to anyone who wants to take it on........ there will probably be a dozen teams next year after the plea for others to participate.

good dancing to everyone.......

[snoopy]

The discussion re: Team entries from Bill Foreman - given that there is a wealth of talent in Aberdeen, Dundee, Rosyth, Edinburgh and Glasgow why should only one team be entered from Scotland. There is nothing to stop any group of people from any location entering a team. This would also add an additional element of competativeness. :devil:

PS,
Dundee would win so perhaps the other centres should abstain, or could I be wrong ??. :confused:

[Franck]

Originally posted by snoopy
There is nothing to stop any group of people from any location entering a team. This would also add an additional element of competativeness. :devil:

Dundee would win so perhaps the other centres should abstain, or could I be wrong ??. :confused:

Hi Snoopy,

Welcome to the Forum, there is nothing like a controversial first post to get things interesting :devil: :grin:

I reckon each city should put on a cabaret team entry... The effort would definitely be worthwhile as they could use the routine at the London Champs and also at the Scottish Champs.

So go on, all budding choreographers, get thinking and put a team together. :waycool:

Franck.

[Bill]

Mmmmmmmmmmm...... several Scottish teams eh !!! Might be a good idea and there is certainly the talent but would all the relationships survive the direct competition ???:eek:

Good luck to anyone who wants to organise the teams and I've already heard several suggestions for themes, costumes etc....

As for the Scottish Champs.....I'm probably a wimp but I don't like the idea of dancing against friends. In England it's fun because we don't know that many dancers from down south but competing against people I know would be more difficult ( I think)

Ah well, all the best to Franck and Scot in getting a Scottish Championship under way. There is a competition in England ( Bristol I think) on 17th August so some potential competitiors may already be booked up for that.

Happy dancing

[John S]

Originally posted by bill foreman

As for the Scottish Champs.....I'm probably a wimp but I don't like the idea of dancing against friends. In England it's fun because we don't know that many dancers from down south but competing against people I know would be more difficult ( I think)

That's a valid point Bill makes - I tell any newcomers to Ceroc that it's not competitive, and as long as they're enjoying themselves it doesn't really matter what their standard is. Championships obviously run counter to that concept, but as long as it's all fun it doesn't much matter - when it becomes serious it does.

As we can see from this thread, the judging won't please everyone and it is quite possible someone will get upset - funnily enough it's usually someone in the audience on behalf of someone else, as the individual competitors don't generally seem to bother.

So, would we have to follow the lead of football and get neutral referees, so that Scot, Franck etc don't get booed and hissed off the dance floor?:confused:

[Franck]

Originally posted by John S
That's a valid point Bill makes - I tell any newcomers to Ceroc that it's not competitive, and as long as they're enjoying themselves it doesn't really matter what their standard is. Championships obviously run counter to that concept, but as long as it's all fun it doesn't much matter - when it becomes serious it does.
You are right of course, for ages, Ceroc was dead set against competition, based on the fact that it had probably contributed to the decline of Ballroom as a social dance... These days it is very hard to find a Ballroom dancing class which does not push you towards competition... :(
It is possible though to have a relaxed / fun competition, where the emphasis is on everyone having a good time.
It is very important that we do not start laying standards / rules as being the "right way" and therefore imply a "wrong way" :sorry
My favourite category at the Champs is always the Lucky Dip, as it allows people to mix and genuinely great performances to surface.


So, would we have to follow the lead of football and get neutral referees, so that Scot, Franck etc don't get booed and hissed off the dance floor?:confused:
Well, that is a tough one... Judges should obviously be qualified and impartial (as much as possible :sick: ).
The main part is to lay out the judging criteria very clearly in advance of the competition, and then make sure that all the judges are properly trained / briefed in what to look for.

Still, I am sure there will be a lot of talk before and after either event :nice: :wink:

Franck.

[Heather]

On the subject of competing against friends and people that you know,I thought it might be interestig to point out the motto of the Aberdeen and North East of Scotland Music Festival, in which I have competed for many years :- 'Not to gain a prize or defeat a rival, but to pace one another on the road to excellence'.
When you take part in this competition, you get a 'crit' from an adjudicator, in other words, you are told what you have done wrong, what you have done right and how you can improve your performance. Hopefully, the crit is constructive, and you can learn from it. The same should apply in dancing- if you are going to enter something like this at all, then it should not be with the sole aim of 'Beating' everyone else. It should be treated as a learning experience!! Unfortunately some people are so full of themselves that this is impossible! I observed that, if some of the folks in Blackpool were Chocolate they would have eaten themselves!!
Do the judges in these competitions give pointers for improvement or are prizes just awarded with no reason given?

[Franck]

Originally posted by Heather
'Not to gain a prize or defeat a rival, but to pace one another on the road to excellence'.
Excellent quote, and definitely one to keep in mind for both the London Champs and the Scottish Champs... :grin:

The road to excellence is very long and bumpy indeed, it reminds me of those twisty mountain roads, just as you think that the summit is round the corner, you discover another corner and then another, etc... :really:
But then again the fun is in the travelling and in sharing the journey with fellow travellers. :nice:

Franck.

[Gus]

Heather,

good points well made. I endured learning to Ceroc in London and gave it up because I couldn't compete with the egos and ceroc snobs that got in the way. Its sad to say that a lot of this still exists. Unfortunately, there are some serious egos in the North West and its a proven fact that this is not neceesarilty beacuse they are good dancers!:mad:

To be even handed, the person with the best attitude to his fellow dancer is a certain Viktor. If you don't know who he is ask Scott, he's simply (along with his wonderfull partner Lydia) about the best Jive dancer and teacher in the UK. At the same time he is so modest that you would never think it to talk to him.
2 years ago a beginner from my club was at the Ceroc Nationals and just asked some chap if she could have a dance ... he apolodised profusely but said he was tied up at the time but would dance with her later. My beginner thought this was just an excuse as she was'nt one of the young pretty little things dancing around her. THEN she saw this chap demoing in front of all ... it was Viktor. She was pretty surprised, but not nearly as much when 15 minutes later he saught her out and took her for a dance!

OK ... so I rambled off the suject and digress.../

Back to judges ... spoke to a few of the judges after the event and the point was made that judging is very difficult, especially in the intermediate where indivdual styles are less pronounced. I've heard that Chance2Dance are thinking hard about how they can make the judging more transparaent. for ourselves, a few of the dance organisation are proposing to get together to train competitors in 'competition craft' when we work out exactly what that is for ourselves. does any of this make sense?

:sick:

[Bill]

I agree with other comments that dancing has to be first and foremost about having fun. The very fact that so many dancers up here now want to compete is good and down south many couples compete to win and add titles to their 'dance CV' because they want to teach or take workshops. Nothing wrong with that but there is a difference between us mere mortals and the true 'professionals'.

I was dismayed to hear the rumour that Viktor and Lydia were going to be competing at Blackpool - as if the standard wasn't already high enough!:eek:

Franck is right to say there shoudln't be a right and wrong way to dance but the very fact that judges place couples means thatt they are making a public statement about who they think is 'better' than the rest and that can mean style, interpretation. moves etc.... It's obvious that judges have particular likes and dislikes as we all have so will prefer one style over another. The message then is that there may well be a preferred dance style for us to adopt - if we want to compete.


I hope the plans go ahead for the Scottish Championship although I know there is another competition going on in Bristol on 17th August and many of the English dancers might already be booked for that or may be on holiday.

Finally, I've heard the term 'if he was chocolate he'd eat himself' before .........wonder where it was. :grin:

[John S]

Originally posted by bill foreman
Finally, I've heard the term 'if he was chocolate he'd eat himself' before .........wonder where it was. :grin:

First time I heard it was about Graeme Souness in his Liverpool playing days - now there's someone I wouldn't want to bump into on the dancefloor.:(

[Franck]

Originally posted by bill foreman

Franck is right to say there shoudln't be a right and wrong way to dance but the very fact that judges place couples means thatt they are making a public statement about who they think is 'better' than the rest and that can mean style, interpretation. moves etc.... It's obvious that judges have particular likes and dislikes as we all have so will prefer one style over another. The message then is that there may well be a preferred dance style for us to adopt - if we want to compete.

Not necessarily, if the judges are paying more attention to expression, creativity, fun, and enthusiasm on the dance floor rather than technical / body position / footwork... then it is possible to get things going in the right direction (I believe that is what the Ceroc Champs are trying to achieve).
Of course, as you say, judges are only human, and as a result, current trends / fashions / styles will get better marks from judges, but that is also interesting from a spectators point of view. I remember a couple of years ago when Dan and Lisa introduced a completely new way of dancing Ceroc (part hip hop / part Ceroc), my jaw was on the floor and they deservedly got rewarded, not implying that everyone should then go and dance like that, but for opening up new possibilities...

Franck.

[Gus]

Frank said
"I remember a couple of years ago when Dan and Lisa introduced a completely new way of dancing Ceroc (part hip hop / part Ceroc), my jaw was on the floor and they deservedly got rewarded, "

Yeah ... I agree EXCEPT my memory was that the reward they got was to get disqualified from the Cabaret despite the fact that it bwas the most exiting think to hit Modern Jive in many years.

Re the comments ... teachers decisions will set dance style ... sorry but totaly disagree. Ever met two jusges in our field with the same opinion. ever heard the real heat in some of the 'discussions' between the judges at Chance2 Dance? I would hazard that James Hamiton would have a very different opinion to Simon from JiveBug (maybe). To give another example ... I competed at Bristol last year .... and sank without a trace in the first round!! Pretty damn embaresing!!:sorry With same partner got into the final at Blackp0ol against a far stronger set of competitiors. Only difference, the judges.

In dance it is very difficult to say someone is 'better' ... the best you can say is that a couples style pleases you more than the other competitors. But does that matter? It dependfs if you are dancing to match yourself against the best or just to have a bit of fun. Sorry to contra Bill but it would have been fantastic to compete against Viktor ..... its only by competing agaimnst the best that people are motivated to reach new heights. If you want to have fun ...GREAT .. and thats possibly what the Intermediate section is ... but if you want to be able to say you are the best, then you have to compete against the best..... and so far no competiton has seen the likes of Viktor, Simon, Roi Forbes .... at leat not since JiveSpree 1999!

[Bill]

Although you say you disagree with me Gus you seem to then agree !!!:D

The point I was trying to make was that the overall decision of the judges ( I agree that on a panel there might be some very heated debate) can lead some dancers to think that the winners have the 'best' style.You also stress that you didn't make it through the first round with Helen ( she told me about that !) and yet (in my opinion) shoudl have been placed in the final at Blackpool !!!!!!!! The two of you were superb in the final. What you then say is that the difference was the judging. In my own muddled way that was the point I was making. Different judges at diffferent comps looking for different things. However, there is a degree of consistency as the winners at Blackpool have been placed at the last few competitions so it's clear all judges like their style.

I was there in London as well when Dan and Lisa did their 'thing' and as you and Franck both say, it was amazing. It's great to see different styles but I do think that Ceroc generally prefers a particular 'style' and it is nice to see Franck saying that two people enjoying themselves is just as important as being technically correct.


ps I'll be at Stockport on 6th April Gus and then Nottingham and Leicester............hope to see you there.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus

Frank said
"I remember a couple of years ago when Dan and Lisa introduced a completely new way of dancing Ceroc (part hip hop / part Ceroc), my jaw was on the floor and they deservedly got rewarded, "
Yeah ... I agree EXCEPT my memory was that the reward they got was to get disqualified from the Cabaret despite the fact that it bwas the most exiting think to hit Modern Jive in many years.

That is not quite what happened, they did get disqualified on technical ground as their routine did stray quite a long way off from Ceroc / Modern Jive, but they received a special award (mostly due to popular pressure). I think they just took the judges (and all of us :) ) by surprise.

The year after, there were quite a number of Dan / Lisa emulators on the dance floor (combats and hip hop style), and a whole crop of new moves were added to the Ceroc list were influenced by this style.

I do not think that the judges decision influence dancing style, but I do think that Championships as a showcase for innovative style, influence trends amongst dancers / teachers, regardless of the result of the competition...

Franck.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Franck

It is very important that we do not start laying standards / rules as being the "right way" and therefore imply a "wrong way"

There is not just one 'right' way to dance - there are several. But there are definitely 'wrong' ways to dance. Eg doing leads that hurt your partner, cannoning into other dancers, etc.



... if the judges are paying more attention to expression, creativity, fun, and enthusiasm on the dance floor rather than technical / body position / footwork...

I think it is very wrong to judge purely on the artistic elements (creativity, musical interpretation etc) and ignore any technical aspects of the dance.
Ultimately, all the artistic things you can do in dancing are for one reason - looking good. All the technical things are for a slightly different reason - dancing well. Are you judging a dance competition or a beauty competition?
There are lots of different things you can do that look good, but there are far more that look bad. Technique is a set of ground rules that say 'this way is usually better than that way'. There are very few dancers who are just naturally good. The rest of us need to learn how to do things, and that means learning technique. It is a shame that no-one teaches it - we have to pick it up by osmosis.
I am not saying that a competition should be judged purely on technique - far from it. But there needs to be a balance, and that balance should be known to the competitors. I also think that technique should be given less weighting in the beginners and intermediate divisions. One of the strengths of Modern Jive is that it is fun and easy to learn. But one of the fundamentals of being an advanced dancer is knowing 'how' to dance, so technique should be more important in the advanced divisions.



... then it is possible to get things going in the right direction

I agree. The competitions are starting to have an effect on Modern Jive. Whether it is direct influence the winners have by teaching, to the inspirational effect it has on everyone who goes, or the classes and workshops that are starting to appear on competitive dancing. And you can use this effect to help shape the future of the dance.
But what is the 'right direction'? Just as importantly who decides what it is?
I was going to say I don't care. Modern Jive is purely a social dance for me - if I want to compete I do different styles of dancing. But if it has an effect on how Modern Jive is danced socially in the future, I do care.



Of course, as you say, judges are only human, and as a result, current trends / fashions / styles will get better marks from judges, but that is also interesting from a spectators point of view.

The judging has to be more open. A judge's mark will always reflect his/her personal opinion on a dancer. But there are so many different elements to dancing that there is a lot to have an opinion on. You have to say what they are looking for, and what will get people marked up or down.
You also have to decide how to combine the marks. It is not a good idea to let each judge award marks, and then do a simple total to decide the final positions. It might seem to be more transparent (than ice skating for example), but it gives individual judges too much say in the overall outcome. One commonly used system is Relative Placement - see http://www.swingdancecouncil.com/library/relativeplacement.htm for more details.
And finally you have to decide who gets to judge. There are no qualified judges (unlike in Ballroom, or Swing in the US) so you have to select a small group who are experienced, respected and impartial. You have to have enough judges - I would say 5 is a minimum, and preferably 7, 9 or even 11.



...they did get disqualified on technical ground as their routine did stray quite a long way off from Ceroc / Modern Jive...

If you have rules in a division - eg time limit, percentage of 'recognised' modern jive etc, you need someone other than the judges to enforce the rules. The judges should not have the time.
It would also be nice if there was some standardisation on the rules in the different competitions. This is particularly important in the Showcase, as it is (or should be!!) the only division where routines are allowed. Our routine would not have been allowed in Blackpool, but would be ok for the Ceroc championships. I know that Ceroc have no control over the Blackpool comp, but when you do get the Scottish Championships up and running, it would be simpler if you used the same rules as the London comp.


Apologies for the long post, but I got a bit carried away. And if you are wondering why so many people from outside of Scotland look at this board - it is the only one that people seem to read and contribute to!

David

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB

There is not just one 'right' way to dance - there are several. But there are definitely 'wrong' ways to dance. Eg doing leads that hurt your partner, cannoning into other dancers, etc.
Well, of course, there are wrong ways to dance, but I was taking the above (ie dangerous dancing / poor leading) as a given.


I think it is very wrong to judge purely on the artistic elements (creativity, musical interpretation etc) and ignore any technical aspects of the dance.
Ultimately, all the artistic things you can do in dancing are for one reason - looking good. All the technical things are for a slightly different reason - dancing well. Are you judging a dance competition or a beauty competition?
There are lots of different things you can do that look good, but there are far more that look bad. Technique is a set of ground rules that say 'this way is usually better than that way'. There are very few dancers who are just naturally good. The rest of us need to learn how to do things, and that means learning technique. It is a shame that no-one teaches it - we have to pick it up by osmosis.
I can agree up to a point, but technique is very often over-played and in certain dances / competitions technique becomes the object of the exercize ( ie the competitors / dancers will prepare technically difficult moves, intricate footwork, which (in my opinion) are not necessary to be a good dancer, and only serve to exclude other dancers who are either unable or unwilling to spend hours learning a complex pattern of steps...
It is possible that we are talking about 2 different types of technique:

I understand your meaning to be, that good technique means a good (clear) lead and a good (responsive) follow, combined with footwork that allows the dancers to make the move look effortless etc... In that respect, of course technique is important.
My grudge with technique is more to do with the fact that it can come in the way of dancing, where couples will seek out more and more complexity at the expense of expression.


I am not saying that a competition should be judged purely on technique - far from it. But there needs to be a balance, and that balance should be known to the competitors. I also think that technique should be given less weighting in the beginners and intermediate divisions. One of the strengths of Modern Jive is that it is fun and easy to learn. But one of the fundamentals of being an advanced dancer is knowing 'how' to dance, so technique should be more important in the advanced divisions.
Funny how I would have gone the other way, really... :)
I reckon that as you progress and become a better (more experienced dancer), you can indeed start to break some (technical) rules to become more innovative.



I agree. The competitions are starting to have an effect on Modern Jive. Whether it is direct influence the winners have by teaching, to the inspirational effect it has on everyone who goes, or the classes and workshops that are starting to appear on competitive dancing. And you can use this effect to help shape the future of the dance.
But what is the 'right direction'? Just as importantly who decides what it is?
I was going to say I don't care. Modern Jive is purely a social dance for me - if I want to compete I do different styles of dancing. But if it has an effect on how Modern Jive is danced socially in the future, I do care.

Well, I personally do care. In fact, I worry about it. I am so proud of the fact that Ceroc (and most modern jive classes) place such a big emphasis on the fun / enjoyment of dancing rather than the technical expertise of the dancers; and it concerns me that more and more Cerocers will spend the year preparing for a competition, and therefore dance mostly with the same partner and eventually send a signal to new members that competing and excellence are what Ceroc is about... I don't think that the above is happening as yet, but I would hate to see it happen.




Apologies for the long post, but I got a bit carried away. And if you are wondering why so many people from outside of Scotland look at this board - it is the only one that people seem to read and contribute to!

David
Though I did not really expect this Forum to become UK wide, I am really pleased to read your comments.
Scotland is a relatively small place and it is great to have contributors from everywhere to add to the debate and discussions.
Keep the ideas and controversial comments coming.

Franck.

[Bill]

A number of very interesting points raised by Franck and Dave regarding technique and dancing.

There are a handful of wonderful and 'natural' dancers and then there's the rest of us who have to try hard to do what we can. The greatthing about Ceroc as Franck says is that you can 'dance' almost immediately and have real fun. It';s when you get to a stage where you want or feel the need to improve that's the problem.

I think technique can help and as I've never been taught before I've been trying to develop some over the last couple of years. The style workshops really help and for most folk mastering the moves and dancing the night away is a fabulous experience. And it's not about technique over enjoyment but marrying the two.

I saw one couple at Blackpool and though they were clealry very good, it was obvious they were concentrating on moves rather than listening to the music. But style is also developed and watching someone like Viktor demonstrates that style can make even all the beginners moves look wonderful.

I think there's a place for workshops which allow those who want to, the opportunity to progress and learn a little more technique and style which is why Nigel and Nina's workshops are so popular and often full of Cerocers !!:grin:

I've heard a number of women recently complain that a lot of men never stop if there's a break in the music and never seem to listen to the song. Is that natural ability, learned behaviour, technique, style ????:confused:

Thee is a danger of getting caught up with competitions which is why I said I wouldn't compete again after last year - OK so I changed my mind but I do still get very nervous and uptight when competing that I do wonder if it's worth it. But there is a balance and if you do compete you have to spend a little more time with your partner(s) even if it's just to make sure you don't look totally out of your depth!:sick:

The one really good thing about the competitions is that it gives us all the opportunity to dance with so many great dancers from all over the country and on the whole it's always a lovely experience.

A rambling response as usual but I think the whole nature of style and especially technique is something to explore and perhaps more workshops would be an idea for those who want them. For those who don't then having fun and boogying on down is all that matters

:waycool:

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by bill foreman
Thee is a danger of getting caught up with competitions which is why I said I wouldn't compete again after last year - OK so I changed my mind but I do still get very nervous and uptight when competing that I do wonder if it's worth it. But there is a balance and if you do compete you have to spend a little more time with your partner(s) even if it's just to make sure you don't look totally out of your depth!:sick:



Your point about getting "caught up" with competitions highlights my own personal dislike of them (even though I've never taken part in one, but bear with me).

My reasoning is: I never got involved with partner dancing until three years ago, because it all seemed to be geared towards competitions - I reckoned from the publicity that if these were the biggest events, then all the people who took part in the dancing were serious (and covered in sequins...). So I probably missed out on enjoying dancing for years, because of that false impression. I can't help feeling I'm not the only one who ever thought like that, and been put off by the fuss made about competitions.

They shouldn't be viewed as the biggest events in dancing, and especially Ceroc IMHO: they should always be a niche interest.

[Bill]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gus
[B]Heather,


Unfortunately I have to agree with Gus on the attitude of some dancers down south, mainly in LOndon

I endured learning to Ceroc in London and gave it up because I couldn't compete with the egos and ceroc snobs that got in the way. Its sad to say that a lot of this still exists. Unfortunately, there are some serious egos in the North West and its a proven fact that this is not neceesarilty beacuse they are good dancers!:mad:

I've danced at several venues around the country and was 'warned' before my first venture out of Scotland that I shouldn't be surprised if my invitations to dance were turned down. I was dancing at Fulham on Tuesday night and had some lovley dances but it appears that as in most (?) London clubs all the 'good' dancers sit around the stage and tend to dance with each other.

I've always been made to feel welcome at classes at Nottingham, York, Newcastle, Stafford, Nantwich etc...... but there does appear to be a more parochial and snobbish attitude among some in London. A pity because I've had some superb dances from women at Hammersmith, The Casbah and the Jive Bar who don't belong to the 'elite'.

Anyway, as you said Gus, Viktor is not only the best dancer around he is a genuinely nice guy and I was delighted to find that he was teaching at Fulham on Tuesday. Some wonderful dances and Viktor teaching........ what a night

:D

Happy dancing to everyone:grin:

[DavidB]

People in London tend to be less sociable than elsewhere. I'm originally from Yorkshire, and found it very strange when I moved down here. But eventually you tend to become like everyone else.

There is far too much politics in dancing in London. There are people banned from some venues because they have been to other organisations. There are some teachers who will only speak to other teachers through their lawyers. There are restrictions on what you can advertise and where.

And unfortunately there are some dancers who won't dance with anyone they don't know, or don't consider good enough. I have been on the receiving end of this several times. Just ignore them - they are not the best dancers anyway.

The best dancers do tend to congregate around particular areas, I assume because they like dancing with each other. But I have rarely seen any of them saying 'no' to a dance - and then it is usually because they are tired.

Personally, I rarely ask for more than a handful of dances in an evening, and usually only ask people that I know. The biggest reason is that I hate being turned down for a dance, so I usually only ask when I am pretty sure the answer is yes. I am also very shy.
I will never turn down a dance if someone asks me, even if I don't like dancing with that person. But I rarely get asked - on average a couple of times an evening. I usually spend most of my time dancing with my wife - partly because there are not many other dancers who do West Coast Swing and Hustle, but also because other people don't ask her to dance when we go out together.

Having said all that, on the one occasion I went to Ceroc in Edinburgh, I don't think I got chance to sit down all night!

David

[Gus]

DavidB makes some excellent points, and I concur with his views of London dancing for the most part. The sad shame is that the standard of dancing IS better in London. Its being going a lot longer and the amount of GOOD dancers has hit critical mass so that it seems to be a self fullfilling prophecy ... by that I'd say in most regions to get a couple of advanced dancers devloping then they find there a few dancers at their level to dance with and progress ... so their standard levels off or they just get board and give up.

One of the few exceptions to that was Nottingham a few yaers back but a recent trip across there seemed to suggets that the standrad wasn't what it was.

Anyway, good dancer or bad dancer shouldn't stop the basic ettiquette of asking someone to dance ... though I think there can be trend that if someone is perecieved as being good then no-one will ask them for a dance. At Stockport (Blitz) you can get up to 400 dancers. When I first was new of the circuit, I used to get asked fairly often. Now that people know me as a teacher I get asked as an ecxception ... which really takes the edge off the night. I'm fed up having to constantly ask people to dance. The contrast when I went up to Newcastle was increadible. I had to hide for a while just so I could get my energy back. Great crowd, very friendly ... should be compulsory.

What I would say to the general dance public is don't be put off by someone being a good dancer or a teacher (not always the same thing). Both of you might enjoy a dance.

[Tiggerbabe]

Dave, Dave's wife and Gus,

You obviously haven't made it as far as Dundee as we have the reputation for being the friendliest place to come and dance. There are even a few of us who are learning West Coast Swing at the moment and would love to give it a go with an expert or two.
As you said in Edinburgh you hardly got the chance to sit down - sometimes this is unfortunately due to the fact that there are so many more women than men and if a guy can dance then he is not allowed to sit down for a moment ( some of the guys retreat downstairs to the bar just to cool down!).
In Dundee no-one refuses a dance - unless you are really tired -and then you would search out that person to dance with when you have recovered.
When the beginners start I always tell them that everyone started in the same position as them - so they have not to be overawed by anyone they think is too good to dance with them. Some girls, I think, do have a problem asking guys to dance as it is not the done thing most everywhere else but after a few weeks I think they get the hang of it.
Having said that I will agree that it is very nice to be asked - and even better if two people come to ask you at the same time - does wonders for your ego!
So hopefully D & G we can have a wee birl round the dance floor at the Scottish Championships whenever they are.;)

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
People in London tend to be less sociable than elsewhere. I'm originally from Yorkshire, and found it very strange when I moved down here. But eventually you tend to become like everyone else.


I think there is a bit of this going on, but I found that one of the reasons Ceroc / modern Jive was so popular in London, was because people were fed up with being un-sociable (especially in the tube :what: :sick: :sad: ).
On most occasions, I have been in London (mostly Hammersmith), I have found that there were plenty of people to dance with, mostly very friendly. However, I guess my views might be tainted by the fact that last time I was wearing a kilt :grin:

The main grudge is that it is simply rude to turn down a dance.

Cheers,

Franck.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus

Anyway, good dancer or bad dancer shouldn't stop the basic ettiquette of asking someone to dance ... though I think there can be trend that if someone is perecieved as being good then no-one will ask them for a dance. At Stockport (Blitz) you can get up to 400 dancers. When I first was new of the circuit, I used to get asked fairly often. Now that people know me as a teacher I get asked as an ecxception ... which really takes the edge off the night. I'm fed up having to constantly ask people to dance. The contrast when I went up to Newcastle was increadible. I had to hide for a while just so I could get my energy back. Great crowd, very friendly ... should be compulsory.

What I would say to the general dance public is don't be put off by someone being a good dancer or a teacher (not always the same thing). Both of you might enjoy a dance.

I totally agree with the above (though I have never found people were shy to ask me for a dance, maybe I am not yet perceived to be good enough yet :nice: ).

Teachers and all experienced dancers are usually always happy to dance, and more often than not with a beginner... Variety is of the essence here, and the more partners we can dance with the more likely we are to get a fantastic dance and to improve in the process.

Franck.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Sheena

There are even a few of us who are learning West Coast Swing at the moment and would love to give it a go with an expert or two.


We are not experts, but in April (Sat 13 and Sun 14) you have Jo Thompson in Scotland, teaching Line Dancing. But Jo is also one of the top West Coast Swing dancers in the US, and is an excellent teacher. It might be worthwhile trying to arrange a lesson with her.
Her tour is being arranged by Alan Livett - see http://www.renegaderanch.com/events_diary.htm for more details.

David

[snoopy]

Asking Girls to dance can be a bit dangerous for the chaps ?, well sort of. I have no problem with asking any level of dancer for a turn round the floor :yum: , but, if there are two or more friends sitting together and you manage to ask one of them for a dance but are then diverted from asking their friend(s) there is the danger that the missed friend(s) give it the "Asked you but not me, why ?, favouritism !". :sorry:

:confused: Or am I over reacting to light banter

[John S]

Dear Snoopy (my anonymous fellow-Fifer)

Just in case you're wondering why there's no responses to your message here, Franck has opened up a brand new thread for this topic, where presumably any followups will be. :cool:

Good topic!

[Gus]

Maybe time to ressurect this thread again,

thinki it started with some controvesy re who did/should have/might have won various categories. just got my copy of the video ... think it may open up the debate again.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Jive championships were great fun- and I agree totally 'Bill wuz robbed' - you never noted that Chris Docker of Edinburgh got 3rd place in the 'take a chance' competition - could this be cos he'll go on about it for months anyway :rolleyes:



Hmm someone just gave me negative reputation points and the comment 'I hate the smurfs' for this - posted more than 2 years ago. It was a joke...sheesh. Someone doesnt have a sense of humour :).

[Gus]

Hmm someone just gave me negative reputation points and the comment 'I hate the smurfs' for this - posted more than 2 years ago. It was a joke...sheesh. Someone doesnt have a sense of humour :).

I just got clobbered too, just because I ressurected the thread! IT WAS TWO YEARS AGO!!:angry: What a**hole is slamming out negatives just because they dont want a topic discussed???? SEARCH AND DESTROY :devil: :devil: .... Censorship by stealth!

By the way ... whats the next competition coming up to start whinging about :wink:

[Jayne]

By the way ... whats the next competition coming up to start whinging about :wink:
Intermediates in the Jive Masters??? :wink: :devil:

Gus: :flower:

J :nice:

[Gus]

Intermediates in the Jive Masters??? :wink: :devil:

Gus: :flower:

J :nice:


Ohhhhh get you! :na: Fair comment ... it was a point I raised in a PM to Jayne. I KNOW that some Intermediates are superb (Chris A & Jayne, FC & JB etc.) .... BUT, the Jivemasters were launched as being the Best of the Best .... bringing all the winners of the Advanced categories together in one big shoot out. Given there are about 5 UK Championships, with about 6 couples in each final ... allowing for some common dancers, that would still give around 20+ couples to fight it out. So ... has the ethos changed?

[TheTramp]

I'm not so sure that you'd get 20+ couples out of the top 5 UK finals with 6 couples Gus.

Looking at the ones this year, out of Blackpool and Ceroc, you'd get:

Clayton & Janine
Lily & David/Viktor
Hayley & Gary/Steve
Will & Kate
Ray & Jane
Adam & Taz
Steve & Julie

That's out of 11 possible couples (6 in Blackpool advanced, 5 in London Open). I think that the more you go on, the greater the duplication...I wasn't at Britroc last year, but I know that Will & Kate won it, and Adam & Taz did well (2nd?). Apart from Ben & Katie, I don't know who else was in the final. But I suspect that you wouldn't find that many different couples.

In addition, since they are having at least 6 heats in London, and 3 regional heats, with 5 couples each time this year, that means that they need at least 45 couples.

Given that some of the couples who might well be asked will not want (or be able) to compete in the Jive Masters for whatever reason (not being able to get to the final in November is a good one), then they will probably need a bigger pool than 45 couples.

Trampy

[Gus]

, and 3 regional heats
WHAT 3 HEATS?? Last I heard, neither Manchester or Birmigham events had a venue nor date and are looking distinctly like they aint taking place. Where does that leave the likes of Leeds Lynn, Pistol Pete, Keith & Janey and the other Stars from out-of- London:confused:

[TheTramp]

I believe that the heats will take place, since it is advertised that they will.

The final isn't until the middle of November. That gives 5.5 months. Which is plenty of time for them yet to be organised. I wouldn't start worrying about it for some time yet.

Trampy

[Rachel]

... I KNOW that some Intermediates are superb (Chris A & Jayne, FC & JB etc.) .... BUT, the Jivemasters were launched as being the Best of the Best .... bringing all the winners of the Advanced categories together in one big shoot out. Given there are about 5 UK Championships, with about 6 couples in each final ... allowing for some common dancers, that would still give around 20+ couples to fight it out. So ... has the ethos changed? (wrong thread for this really, but ...) I agree with Trampy that there just wouldn't be enough Advanced category finalists available, willing and able to fill the JiveMasters competition. And, as we've said before, there are many many brilliant dancers who either haven't yet competed in the advanced (prime example: James and Melanie), or competed at all.

I for one certainly think it's worth making the long journey to Chigwell to be able to watch the likes of Chris and Jayne, Emma and Alex, etc, even if they are still 'technically' intermediate (yeah right!!). I'd also love the chance to see some of the more northern dancers you mention who I'm unfamiliar with (Pistol Pete? ... sounds exciting!!). How many times, at a dance, would you really just want to sit out and watch a couple dancing, but never get the chance? JiveMasters has got to be the best competition for complete uninterrupted viewing ...

Though how anyone has the nerve to get up there, alone, and dance in front of all those people is beyond me ... I think they all deserve huge admiration!

BTW Adam, if you see this - a bit of a plug ... has anyone considered inviting Mike, who came second in the intermediates at Hammersmith, to compete?
Rachel

[ChrisA]

the likes of Chris and Jayne, ..., etc, even if they are still 'technically' intermediate (yeah right!!).

Well. Technically, we're now "advanced" according to the consensus that seems to say "place and you move up". But we don't feel very advanced, I can tell you, even though we're happy to go with that consensus. And as for:



Though how anyone has the nerve to get up there, alone, and dance in front of all those people is beyond me ... I think they all deserve huge admiration!

... it's beyond me too. :tears:

(but admire away :hug: :whistle: :flower: )

Chris

[Rachel]

Well. Technically, we're now "advanced" according to the consensus that seems to say "place and you move up". But we don't feel very advanced, I can tell you, even though we're happy to go with that consensus. ... Yes, you're right of course, sorry! I was still thinking of your previous 'status' according the level you chose to compete at.

(Will look forward to seeing you compete in the Advanced at ... where? ... Scottish champs?)
R.