PDA

View Full Version : Lindy / West Coast Swing difference?



Emma
8th-September-2002, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by DavidB

(And I don't do Lindy because I dont really like either the style or the music.) I dance Ceroc and West Coast Swing because I like the dance, and I can do it to the music I like.



This is definitely off topic, but I didn't think it was worth starting a new thread for...

What's the difference between WCS and Lindy? I was sort of under the impression that they were similar/the same. Obviously they aren't!

Heather
8th-September-2002, 03:19 PM
West Coast Swing and Lindy Hop are ( in my opinion) poles apart in Style. They are about as far apart as you can get. Don't ask me to get technical about this, I'll leave that to some of the others on the board, DavidB, for instance. But where WCS has a sexy Latin feel to it, Lindy Hop is more jumpy and lively, in fact, (and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong ) Lindy has it's basis in the Charleston.:confused: :confused:
The only way for you to find out for yourself, Emma, is to get along to some classes and TRY THEM OUT !!!!!!!!!!!!:wink:
Personally, I LOVE West coast Swing but I can't really get excited about Lindy Hop. Having said that, I like to watch other people doing it (if they are good).

:cheers:
Heather

Heather
8th-September-2002, 03:26 PM
:D :D :wink: Bye the way, Emma, Don't worry too much about going 'Off the Topic'. Some of us are at it all the time!!!!!!:wink:
In fact, some could actually make a career out of it!!!!!!!:wink:
(Sorry Franck, you are fighting a losing battle).
If you think about it, it's really quite a natural progression, being on the Chat Board is like having a conversation, and during the course of a conversation, people DO naturally digress, it's human nature.Only at BORING things like committee meetings, do people adhere to a strict agenda, and we are certainly NOT boring on the chat board!!!!!:wink: :wink:
:cheers:
Heather

DavidB
8th-September-2002, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by Emma
What's the difference between WCS and Lindy? I was sort of under the impression that they were similar/the same. Obviously they aren't! They are not the same, but West Coast Swing did directly develop from Lindy.

In Lindy you have two different styles - Savoy and Hollywood. Both are danced to the same music. Savoy style is by far the popular style in the UK, and is what people are used to seeing. Hollywood style was started by a dancer called Dean Collins, who adapted the dance so that it would look good in movies (hence the name). I don't know many of the differences, but one main one was to dance in a 'slot' instead of rotating round each other.
(Ceroc dancers sometimes get confused when you talk about a slot, even though they do it in every lesson! If you dance freestyle, you don't worry about which way you are facing. But in a lesson there isn't enough room to do thes. So the man and the lady dance along a line and keep changing places - that is dancing in a slot.)

West Coast Swing developed from Hollywood Style Lindy in much the same way as Ceroc developed from Jitterbug, and is now the most popular modern swing dance in the US. It is done to slower music than Lindy, or even Ceroc. Traditionally this was blues and soul music, but is now frequently danced to modern RnB, 'club' music and even rap. It is danced in a slot, and has a very light and quiet (ie non bouncy) lead. Since the music is pretty slow, it suits a lot of improvisation - more so than any other style I've seen. The standard of dancing in the US is very high, but then again most of the top dancers teach and perform full time.

If you want to see how West Coast Swing should look, Robert Cordoba & Deborah Szekely (one of the top couples) are coming over in October. They are only teaching for one day, and are doing a demonstration in the evening. You can get more details at http://www.rebelroc.com (follow the links for 'Rebel Yell').

There is only one couple I know who teach Hollywood style Lindy in the UK - Robert & Claire Austin. As far as I know they have never done WCS, and we have never done Lindy. But I can lead Claire in WCS, and Robert can lead Lily in Hollywood Swing.

David

SwingSwingSwing
8th-September-2002, 10:38 PM
To add to David's lindy description:-

"Hollywood Style" is a term usually given to the lindy hop style taught by Erik Robinson and Sylvia Skylar. They took their inspiration from the Dean Collin's choreographed lindy hop seen in the movies but altered the technique. Hollywood style is danced with a light connection and both partners support their own weight. Robert and Claire base their teachings on Erik and Sylvia's style.

Dean Collin's Style or Smooth Style is the style of lindy hop taught by Dean Collins. It usually has a strong connection and partners will be counterbalancing each other at times.

Both use the slot more than Savoy style.

If you see a couple doing lindy hop and they look "bouncy" it will probably be Savoy Style. "Bounce" here doesn't necessarily mean that their whole bodies are bouncing up and down. Good dancers will absorb the bounce and keep their head/torso on one level but you will probably be able to see a "pulse" in their movements that matches the beat of the music.

Smooth style dancers won't have this pulse and their movements will be fluid. If anyone wants to see some Smooth/Hollywood style goto http://www.glitterlisa.com and follow the "video clips" link. There are plenty of clips available and most are smooth style. One of my favourites is Fritz and Danielle. Although it is a choreographed piece, it looks like lead and follow.

I love smooth style but I don't get the chance to learn it or dance it as often as I'd like. :( Hopefully I'll be able to get myself down to London for one of Robert and Claire's workshops soon.


SwingSwingSwing

Heather
9th-September-2002, 06:43 PM
I see you have got yourself a new Avatar, David !!!!
What is the significance of the motorbike? You are surely not going to reveal that you are a closet Hell's Angel!!!!:D :D


:cheers:
Heather

Heather
9th-September-2002, 06:46 PM
:wink: :wink: Bye the way, I just KNEW you would be able to answer the question about WCS and Lindy!!! You ought to write a book on Contemporary dance styles!!! Where do you get all your info!!!!
:cheers:
Heather

Lindsay
9th-September-2002, 08:24 PM
I thought SwingSwingSwing's response also v. impressive! He's a fab dancer too....

For me there's no competition between modern jive/wcs/lindy - in terms of how it looks, the music it's danced to, and the style/feel, 'swing' (i.e. Lindy Hop not West Coast Swing) wins every time.

DavidB
9th-September-2002, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by Heather
I see you have got yourself a new Avatar, David !!!! What is the significance of the motorbike? You are surely not going to reveal that you are a closet Hell's AngelNot quite a Hell's Angel, but it is a picture of my bike (a 2001 Heritage Softail Classic). Now if only I can work out how to get sound effects with an avatar...

David

DavidB
10th-September-2002, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Lindsay
I thought SwingSwingSwing's response also v. impressive! So did I - I was trying to make my description of Lindy as vague as possible. I don't know much about it, other than how it has affected the development West Coast Swing. I know a bit more now.


For me there's no competition between modern jive/wcs/lindy - in terms of how it looks, the music it's danced to, and the style/feel, 'swing' (i.e. Lindy Hop not West Coast Swing) wins every time. Wouldn't it be boring if we all liked the same thing!

A lot of Lindy dancers are just as interested in the history of the dance, and the personalities involved, as in the dance itself. You don't see this yet in Ceroc, but it could happen. Can you imagine in 60 years time a 'Ceroc Jam', featuring some of the original teachers and music. The scary thing is that this website would be a 'historical document'! Do you want your grandchildren talking about this 'new' dance craze, and then explaining that to be authentic, you have to 'go commando', complain at the music, have an avatar, and constantly change the subject!

David

Franck
12th-September-2002, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Heather
:D :D :wink: Bye the way, Emma, Don't worry too much about going 'Off the Topic'. Some of us are at it all the time!!!!!!:wink:
In fact, some could actually make a career out of it!!!!!!!:wink:
(Sorry Franck, you are fighting a losing battle).
If you think about it, it's really quite a natural progression, being on the Chat Board is like having a conversation, and during the course of a conversation, people DO naturally digress, it's human nature.Thanks Heather, but I think you misunderstood what I was trying to achieve.
I do not want everyone to stick to a strict set of pre-defined topics, I want people to digress and go off all sorts of tangents... and indeed we all do :wink:
What I would like to achieve is an easier to use forum, where everyone can easily navigate and identify the interesting (to them) topics.
As the Forum becomes more popular, there will be too many posts for (most) people to read, and they will have to be selective. The only way to do this, will be by the thread subject.
In the case of this thread, many people not interested by Lindy or West Coast Swing, will simply ignore this thread and therefore miss out on a very interesting discussion on off-topic postings :wink: , DavidB's motorbike etc...

So instead of preventing off-topic chat, I would rather new threads popped-up all over the place providing many varied subjects to get one's teeth into!
So go forth and multiply... :cheers:

Franck.

P.S. I am aware that this very post is off topic, and ideally I should have started a new thread or attached it to a previous thread called off-topic!
But what are rules for if you can't break them occasionally!

filthycute
13th-September-2002, 12:22 AM
where the hell have you been hiding Franck? :yum:
I've been snowed under with college stuff, Paul has been busy getting organised for his hols and Gus.....i'm not sure what his excuse is actually :confused: maybe just the fact that he's had no one to "banter" with :)
come now...tell us why we have been deprived of your presence for so long :D

filthycute x x

ps. look at the size of my off topic post compared to yours :what:
tut tut Administrator :yum:

pps. Heather is reeling you in....you'd think you'd learn by now hehe :D

Franck
13th-September-2002, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by filthycute
where the hell have you been hiding Franck? :yum:
come now...tell us why we have been deprived of your presence for so long :D Why, thank you :nice: It is nice to know you missed me! :wink: No excuse, just been pretty busy, there are a lot of Ceroc events happening in the next few weeks / months, and I am snowed under! It seems that everyone else has been busy as well... The Forum has remained fairly busy despite all that, and I can only guess how mad it will become after the Style week-ends and the Ceroc Comp in Musselburgh! :grin:

ps. look at the size of my off topic post compared to yours :what:
tut tut Administrator :yum: Yeah, puny really :grin: You are losing your touch, I would have expected more from you! :wink:
pps. Heather is reeling you in....you'd think you'd learn by now hehe :D I know, she is very good though, I just could not help myself! I'll have to take my revenge on the dance floor with some off-topic dancing... :devil: :nice:

Franck.

Sandy
13th-September-2002, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by filthycute
where the hell have you been hiding Franck? :yum:
:D Talking of people disappearing - where is John McAuley?? :confused:

Noticed a drop in the level of sarcastic wit. Also Amanda very quiet. Are you both still there??:sad:

Cheers
:cheers:

Sandy

Emma
14th-September-2002, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Franck
I'll have to take my revenge on the dance floor with some off-topic dancing... :devil: :nice:

Franck.

Off topic dancing? The mind boggles!! :devil:

Tiggerbabe
15th-September-2002, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Emma

The mind boggles!! :devil:

And that's not all Emma! You should venture up here just for the experience.:wink: :waycool:

Emma
15th-September-2002, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Sheena


And that's not all Emma! You should venture up here just for the experience.:wink: :waycool:

One of these days I fully intend to! :nice:

filthycute
16th-September-2002, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Franck
Why, thank you :nice: It is nice to know you missed me! :wink: oh come now Franck.......you know we all miss you when you dissapear! who's going to keep all us ruffians under control if not you?? :yum:

I'll have to take my revenge on the dance floor with some off-topic dancing... :devil: :nice:

oo-er!! is that still to be introduced to "standard ceroc moves"?

can i put my name down for the first workshop? i wouldn't mind learning some "off-topic" dancing....it may come in useful.....one day :wink: :wink: Do you need to be of specific criteria to qualify in the "off-topic" dance section? should there be a certain number of week/years i should have under my belt? as an intermediate will i pick this up rather easy or does it take a while to master?
should i start auditioning partners or can i come alone?
anyone looking for a partner? :wink:

flthycute x x

Franck
20th-September-2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by filthycute
Do you need to be of specific criteria to qualify in the "off-topic" dance section? I would think you would fit right-in that section :nice:
I am sure this week-end will see plenty of "Off-topic" dancing, in fact I hope so, fuelled by H's style tips and energy, inebriated with the sheer madness of the week-end and judging by who will be attending... :grin:

Seriously though, off-topic dancing sounds like a good concept, and one I might develop into a "Fun" class for a party sometimes, or even a workshop!

Franck.

Lory
6th-October-2004, 10:51 AM
An old thread but I didn't want to start a new one just for this...

This made me laugh and I think some of you will see the funny side of it too..

Last night, my parents stayed and after dinner and a few little drinky's, the music went on and guess what, we started talking about dancing! (surprised?)

Anyway, my Mum and Dad were pretty good 'rock and rollers' or boogie woogie'ers in their day, so I said to Dad, come on, you lead and I'll see if I can follow....

(Pause here a moment while I set the scene..... we were in the TV lounge with 3 settee and a large glass coffee table that we'd pushed back but this only left a long narrow'ish space)

So up we got and we started to dance, the beat was slightly different and mum and dad explained that some of the ladies turns were done in two beats, I was really getting into it then SUDDENLY, it occurred to me, 'Your doing west coast swing and you don't even know it,' :really: WHAT? :confused: my dad said, I've never heard of it?

So I went into a lengthy explanation of the 'beat' and then onto my main observation, 'You dance perfectly in a slot, people take years to get this right and here you are doing it perfectly without even thinking about it!
That's when my Dad chirped up, I just hit my bloody leg on that flipping glass coffee table, :angry: that's why i'm dancing in the slot ya silly moo! :rolleyes: DERR! :worthy: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sheepman
6th-October-2004, 03:12 PM
that flipping glass coffee table, :angry: I expect to see this as the latest teaching aid for slotted dancing!!

MartinHarper
6th-October-2004, 05:32 PM
I expect to see this as the latest teaching aid for slotted dancing!!

I've heard of teachers using chairs to teach dancing in a slot, and also to teach dancing in a confined space. Not seen it though.

under par
7th-October-2004, 12:39 AM
I've heard of teachers using chairs to teach dancing in a slot, and also to teach dancing in a confined space. Not seen it though.

On a few occasions at ***sters Ive seen them use lots and lots of other dancers. :whistle:

MartinHarper
28th-November-2006, 01:11 AM
Here's an article explaining the difference between WCS and Lindy from a follow perspective: A Follower's Voice – WCS vs. Lindy (http://swing-dancer.com/page.php?31) - by Nicole "mouth" Frydman.

To horribly condense what Nicole is saying, in Lindy Hop the leader follows the music first, and his partner second, while the follower follows her partner first and the music second. Meanwhile in WCS the leader follows his partner first, and the music second, while the follower follows the music first and her partner second.

Anyway, the full article is interesting, and I think relevant to this thread.

Lindsay
30th-November-2006, 10:19 PM
To horribly condense what Nicole is saying, in Lindy Hop the leader follows the music first, and his partner second, while the follower follows her partner first and the music second. Meanwhile in WCS the leader follows his partner first, and the music second, while the follower follows the music first and her partner second.


I like that!! And I agree! :)

Lory
30th-November-2006, 11:16 PM
To horribly condense what Nicole is saying, in Lindy Hop the leader follows the music first, and his partner second, while the follower follows her partner first and the music second. Meanwhile in WCS the leader follows his partner first, and the music second, while the follower follows the music first and her partner second.



So, does that mean that the 'follower' (in WCS) is in control of the musicality :confused: or am I reading this entirely wrong?

Lindsay
30th-November-2006, 11:53 PM
No you're right Lory.... It's not quite that rigid but the follower has tones of freedom of expression, i.e. the lead should respond to any variations we throw in (& likewise). In MJ the lead often panics when the lady breaks the pattern of a move by injecting a bit of musical creativity, & he might haul you back into his next move. However, in WCS followers will extend counts, a 6 or 8 beat move becomes 10 or 12. These are taught as specific moves in our class, but in freestyle it's great to see people making their own stuff up, and really playing with musicality.

"The follower is the picture, the leader is the frame".

Hehehehe!

timbp
1st-December-2006, 08:04 AM
So, does that mean that the 'follower' (in WCS) is in control of the musicality :confused: or am I reading this entirely wrong?
I wouldn't say you're entirely wrong, but...

One thing Tessa and Myles taught in Sydney was the difference between "intentional" and "invitational" leads. Essentially, an intentional lead is "you go there now" whereas an invitational lead is "I'd like you to go there, but if you have a better idea, I'm willing to follow".

But even with an intentional lead, the follower chooses how to get there, as long as she's there at the right time.

Of course "intentional" and "invitational" is a vast simplification. People often liken lead-follow to a conversation. In WCS, I think, this becomes fact. A conversation is not just one person stating something and the other agreeing, or one person asking and the other answering. A person may agree with reservations ("a right side pass is ok, but it would be better if we extended it by 2 beats"), or disagree ("no I don't think a right side pass is suitable, lets make it a push break"). Very rarely can a true conversation be categorised as either intentional or invitational in these senses, and I think a great dance is similar -- each partner responds to what the other is doing, to build something unique between them.

Even though you have huge opportunities to interpret the music as a follower, ultimately you must follow the lead. If he gives an intentional lead, you follow; if he gives an invitational lead, you follow, or take the lead if you have a better idea of what to do with the music.

Mr Cool
2nd-December-2006, 03:58 PM
Well i say Viva la difference.

Lindy hop is a wonderful dance and has many styles not just Savoy and Hollywood. It can be danced to slow medium and fast music I personally hate the hoppy kicky bottom up style of say Graham and Ann or Andy and Rena and although Robert and Claire are great dancers also.:respect: I would say they dance hollywood style but are too busy (and dare I say bouncy) to be called smooth.
I much prefer Steve Mitchell, Andy and Christelle style or Ryan Francous when they dance FREESTYLE interesting to me is Ryan teaches kicky Savoy but freestyles Smooth which is a shame.

Many dancers who dance smooth swing including Ryan include WCS moves.
I also observe that the USA WCS dancers commonly use hollywood whips (double time) in their repertoire which looks wonderful.
Why do people want to be so purist I think dance is a living evolving art.:yeah:

All swing dances are based on Eight and six beat moves and can be mixed and matched Lindy can benifit from the elegance and subtleness of WC and WC can benefit from lindys dynamism and footwork.

WCS is also a wonderful dance the only downside to me is the narrow range of music and the tendency of the followers to do most of the footwork and have most of the fun :tears:
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Whitebeard
2nd-December-2006, 05:03 PM
Well i say Viva la difference.

Lindy hop is a wonderful dance and has many styles not just Savoy and Hollywood. It can be danced to slow medium and fast music I personally hate the hoppy kicky bottom up style of say Graham and Ann or Andy and Rena and although Robert and Claire are great dancers also.:respect: I would say they dance hollywood style but are too busy (and dare I say bouncy) to be called smooth.
I much prefer Steve Mitchell, Andy and Christelle style or Ryan Francous when they dance FREESTYLE interesting to me is Ryan teaches kicky Savoy but freestyles Smooth which is a shame.

Many dancers who dance smooth swing including Ryan include WCS moves.
I also observe that the USA WCS dancers commonly use hollywood whips (double time) in their repertoire which looks wonderful.
Why do people want to be so purist I think dance is a living evolving art.:yeah:

All swing dances are based on Eight and six beat moves and can be mixed and matched Lindy can benifit from the elegance and subtleness of WC and WC can benefit from lindys dynamism and footwork.

WCS is also a wonderful dance the only downside to me is the narrow range of music and the tendency of the followers to do most of the footwork and have most of the fun :tears:
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Last night was interesting. You will have noticed the Lindy couple who kept pretty much to themselves. To his foil, she was doing the fancy stuff quite impressively but her crouching bum out stance really stood out amongst the MJ'ers. Don't like that stance but I'd like to be able to give my partners more chance to 'play'. Also noticed a couple dancing some nice smooth WCS.

Minnie M
2nd-December-2006, 05:58 PM
........./all that stuff /...........WCS is also a wonderful dance the only downside to me is the narrow range of music.....
:yeah: :flower: :yeah:

Mr Cool
5th-December-2006, 10:16 PM
Last night was interesting. You will have noticed the Lindy couple who kept pretty much to themselves. To his foil, she was doing the fancy stuff quite impressively but her crouching bum out stance really stood out amongst the MJ'ers. Don't like that stance but I'd like to be able to give my partners more chance to 'play'. Also noticed a couple dancing some nice smooth WCS.


Quite agree the crouching bum out style can look rather silly. However swing can and is more and more danced upright it is simply a matter of style and taste. There are good and not so good in all forms of dance but for me musical interpretation and smooth style are key to any dance style and as i said in the origonal post viva la difference. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :clap: :cheers:

Lindsay
5th-December-2006, 10:28 PM
:yeah:

MartinHarper
6th-December-2006, 01:00 AM
You will have noticed the Lindy couple who kept pretty much to themselves. To his foil, she was doing the fancy stuff quite impressively but her crouching bum out stance really stood out amongst the MJ'ers. Don't like that stance but I'd like to be able to give my partners more chance to 'play'.

For what it's worth, the lady in question originally danced Ceroc before finding Lindy (and now Tango) some years ago. She's still happy to dance Ceroc - I had a quick Ceroc dance with her myself that night. I'm sure if you asked her to dance she would be happy to accept.

MartinHarper
21st-September-2007, 03:44 PM
I just saw a video that reminded me of another difference between West Coast and Lindy:

YouTube - BridgeTown Swing 2007 - Doug & MaryAnn Pro Strictly 1st Plac (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LH5VpihuFGU)

Check the second song, and particularly the Lindyish bit from 3:03 till the end. Lindy dancers double-speed RnB. West Coast dancers don't.