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Gus
9th-March-2004, 02:41 PM
{ODA Mode On}:wink:

OK .... since when did Modern Jive become Modern Latin Jive?? Looking back over the dominant competition style these days it seems clear that there is a clear move towards the Latin Ballroom style at competitions ... especially for Ladies. Elegant steps, lots of spare hand extension, lunges etc.... look at the performances of Kate, Tramp’s partner etc. On the other hand, the more clubby style seems to get nowhere. Simon and partner (all in red) didn’t make the final despite some extremely innovative dancing. Extreme case is the awesome Dan Baines who I don’t believe has ever bettered 3rd. The (most welcome) exception was of course FC and JB ... but maybe that was due to the fact that they just were so far ahead of the competition there could be no other decision!

{ODA Mode Off}

OK ... know the above statement is extreme ... but it covers an interesting point. Maybe due to the background of the judges ... there does seem to be a significant advantage in dancing Latin style over a more urban modern style. I'm NOT saying that this is necessarily bad ... just observing. Is this a fair comment ... or am I in a vast minority of 1 as usual. Oracle ... any views?

Lounge Lizard
9th-March-2004, 02:52 PM
I agree with Gus that Simon/Kim were fantastic and musical interpretation/breaks etc. perfect IMHO.

There does seem a pattern to the judging at certain events, and what does well at Blackpool may come nowhere at (say) ceroc.

It must depend on the Judging and perhaps someone like Dan Bains as a Judge could balance the picture.

I would imagine that the increase in popularity of Salsa has a strong influence on our dance style, I know a LOT of my stuff is Salsa derived or influenced and assume others are the same.

Two years ago Lindy styling and swing music seemed the fashion, now it is latin, after Mark & Jackie's great routine perhaps Disco will return in two years time.........[Please dont let it happen]

TRPP

TheTramp
9th-March-2004, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
I agree with Gus that Simon/Kim were fantasticI thought that Simon was even better when he danced with his partner 'Keely' though!!

Trampy

Mary
9th-March-2004, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
I thought that Simon was even better when he danced with his partner 'Keely' though!!

Trampy

Sorry Trampy, Simon's partners' name is Nicole, and yes, she's a lovely dancer - I've watched them do some great stuff together.

M

TheTramp
9th-March-2004, 03:21 PM
I think that it's true that certain styles seem to go down better than others.

However, I think that's maybe just because of the people who are dancing them??

If you look at the judges for Blackpool, many of them have their roots/interests more in the lindy/swing side of Modern Jive than in the more Latin side - Nigel, Nina, James, Bridget, Simon. I'd say that only one (Roy) would have a more latin style when dancing.

From this, since (IMHO), Lindy is closer to the club-type dancing that Peter and Gus are interested in than Latin, I'm not sure that I'd agree that it's the judges areas were particularly favoured.

I honestly can't remember the tracks that they played in the final of the advanced (possibly "In these shoes" was one?), but if I were a judge, I'd mark down a couple that only danced in one way, which wasn't necessarily in sync to the music being played - hence, if the music had a more latin feel, even if someone was doing great 'club' style dancing, then I'd mark them down. Of course, this applies both ways. Maybe if the music had a more club based feel, then other people might have done better if they were dancing in that style?

Trampy

TheTramp
9th-March-2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Mary
Sorry Trampy, Simon's partners' name is Nicole, and yes, she's a lovely dancer - I've watched them do some great stuff together.Ummm. Sorry. I thought that they were talking about Simon from Bristol (who, with his partner, were both all in red), not Simon Rich. Apologies if I have the Simon's mixed up.

Isn't Simon Rich's 'actual' partner Nicole anyhow, and not his dance partner?

Trampy

Mary
9th-March-2004, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Ummm. Sorry. I thought that they were talking about Simon from Bristol (who, with his partner, were both all in red), not Simon Rich. Apologies if I have the Simon's mixed up.

Isn't Simon Rich's 'actual' partner Nicole anyhow, and not his dance partner?

Trampy

Oh 'eck! You've got me confused now. I think you are right - Simon R & Kim were not in red (I don't think). So maybe LL got the right couple but wrong names (or right names, but wrong people) or something anyway.:confused: :confused:

Maybe I should stop before this hole gets any bigger.:blush: :whistle:

M

DavidB
9th-March-2004, 03:30 PM
I can't really comment on this year's competition too much - too busy dancing or panicking. So this is based more on what I've seen in the past.

The style should match the music. ie an 'urban' style for 'urban' music, a 'latin' style for 'latin' music, a 'swing' style for 'swing' music, etc. Since no-one seems to do this, it becomes a question of which style is more adaptable.

In the past I've always felt that the 'urban' style of modern jive has relied too much on individuality, and not on dancing with a partner. Competitive latin dancing has evolved as a way of presenting partner dancing to the judges and audience. 'Urban' dancing has evolved more as a way of presenting solo dancing to an audience. This tends to give the latin style several advantages across the different categories.

David

ChrisA
9th-March-2004, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Ummm. Sorry. I thought that they were talking about Simon from Bristol (who, with his partner, were both all in red), not Simon Rich. Apologies if I have the Simon's mixed up.

Isn't Simon Rich's 'actual' partner Nicole anyhow, and not his dance partner?

Heavens, are there two Simons from Bristol?
There was Simon and ElaineB from Bristol who got to the Intermediate final :cheers:

There was Simon Rich (who's going out with Nicole, who is a lovely dancer - I had a couple with her during the post-comp freestyle and they were quite luscious) and Kim, who danced together in Advanced, can't remember how far they got...

Dunno about any others, I obviously need to pay more attention... :tears:

Chris

Sheepman
9th-March-2004, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Gus
{ODA Mode On} Extreme case is the awesome Dan Baines who I don’t believe has ever bettered 3rd. I've only seen Dan compete once, and he won (was it 1998?)

I agree with DavidB, the style should match the music, if we'd had some Latin music on Saturday, (I hope) I would have swapped styles to Latin. Certainly I didn't think I was doing that last Saturday, as most of what I was doing came from West Coast swing/Nigel (often the same thing). I would have loved a Latin style track, as it often seems that's what gets Mary & I going.

But some of us are too ancient to really carry off the Dan Baines "street" style, much as we might want to. One professional dancer told me not to try any hip hop unless I'm young enough to wear the baseball cap backwards.

Hmmm, I still do that - but only to keep the sun off my neck!

Greg

Bill
9th-March-2004, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
but if I were a judge, I'd mark down a couple that only danced in one way, which wasn't necessarily in sync to the music being played
Trampy

In which case I think every dancer would be marked down :sick: :whistle:

Can't think of many, if any, dancers/couples who have different 'styles' or dance in different ways to various tracks. Even the great Vikotr tends to dance in the same salsa/jive style regardless of the music ( but he does it so beautifully).

Most dancers have a particular style and simply throw in a few moves to go with the music. While Davidb seems to hardly move - but leads superbly, Trampy uses lots of dips and drops using his technique and strength, Clayton seems to do lots of big open moves with some drops and Dan B does the lindy/street thing brilliantly but it doesn't always fit particular tracks.

Gus is probably more of 'clubby' dancer so if judges prefer a latin style then he, and others who have a similar style, may have little chance of progressing. Perhaps the one person I can think of who I would say can adapt his style to different tracks would be Nigel as I've seen him do lindy, boogie woogie, blues, jive etc so can slow down, speed up and interpret the music when he wants.

No criticism of any of the above named but I'm sure the 'best' dancers would still be categorised by the 'punters' as clubby, latin, slasa, lindy or whatever and what this offers the rest of us is the opportunity to select a style and try it out.

part of me would love to try Dan's style but I'm too old and don't have the physique ( or the tatoos) :D :blush:

Dance Demon
9th-March-2004, 06:49 PM
I think that there are dancers that can adapt their style to suit the music. Certainly, there are dancers out there that have dabbled in various dance styles. ie Lindy, Salsa WCS, ballroom. Thats probably why we see so many different styles of "modern Jiver" coz they have borrowed moves and style from other dances.

Amir
9th-March-2004, 08:10 PM
Hillel came and saw me perform a contemporary dance piece at the Rambert School, and said it looks just like the way I dance when I do modern jive! No two dance forms could be more different!

Style I think is an expression of your personality, and I don't think it ever changes in extreme ways.

Watch Michael Jackson in 'Black and White' video doing russian, american indian and indian dancing, and he does them all well, but with his own unique style.

I think many dancers do change the way they dance to different music, but they are still doing modern jive and still the same person, so sometimes the difference is subtle.

There are many different types and styles of flamenco, for example, but unless you know a bit about them, they will probably all look about the same.

by the way, I showed a dvd of Mathew and Nicole Cutler (Latin Ballroom Champions) to a friend who had never seen ballroom before to get his opinion. 'It looks just like club dancing' is what he said. So I think it depends on the club you go to...

David B once said something about style as the elements of dancing that are not technique. So in some ways style can be surface. I agree with David that latin styles have evolved in a partner dance form, as opposed to hip-hop, and lend themselves better to modern jive in most cases.

as a last note, I did a great argentinean tango class with Simon Selman, and at the end he expained that you don't have to dance tango to tango music. You can do it to swing music. He confirmed my own personal views on the matter, which basically means that just because a swing tune comes on doesn't mean you suddenly have to look like a lindy dancer. Just because that is what has always been done doesn't mean that is what we have to do. I think tango looks great danced to swing music. I enjoy flamenco danced to chart and salsa to hip hop. At our T-Dance we had people jive to bach and handel. there are no rules and what works is subjective.

I agree that dancing should look different to different kinds of music, but in what way is a very personal choice.

Minnie M
10th-March-2004, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by Sheepman
I've only seen Dan compete once, and he won (was it 1998?)


Hmmm.... wasn't that the Le Jive Comp when he and his partner were punky :confused: if so I believe even though they were allowed to finish their routine/dance they were disqualified as their dancing style didn't fit the criterea

bigdjiver
10th-March-2004, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by Minnie M
Hmmm.... wasn't that the Le Jive Comp when he and his partner were punky :confused: if so I believe even though they were allowed to finish their routine/dance they were disqualified as their dancing style didn't fit the criterea
If Dan is who I think he is, and my memory is correct, (big IF's) they won Le Jive, and were disqualified, and acclaimed at the same time, the next year at the Ceroc Championships. Too much "robotics" and separation.

Sheepman
10th-March-2004, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Minnie M
Hmmm.... wasn't that the Le Jive Comp when he and his partner were punky :confused: if so I believe even though they were allowed to finish their routine/dance they were disqualified There was plenty of controversy over the results, but not this one. Dan & Lisa were certainly punky, but it must have been another comp where they got disqualified.

How anoraky is this:-

LeJive 1998 Intermediate
1st Dan Baines & Lisa Davies 72pts
2nd Derek Harnden & Helena Fletcher 66pts
3rd Phillip Kane & Gaye Hateley 54.5 pts

A couple of other notable names from that comp.

DWAS 4th place - Rob Coward

Showcase 1st Place David & Lily Barker :clap: :clap:

Greg

Lory
10th-March-2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
How anoraky is this:-


Greg
VERY! :D

By the way Greg, I meant to say, thankyou for taking time out for me last night! Really appreciated it!:flower: :hug:

And I WILL give it a go soon! promise! :cheers:

Andy McGregor
10th-March-2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Mary
Oh 'eck! You've got me confused now. I think you are right - Simon R & Kim were not in red (I don't think). So maybe LL got the right couple but wrong names (or right names, but wrong people) or something anyway.:confused: :confused:

Maybe I should stop before this hole gets any bigger.:blush: :whistle:

M

Just to further muddy the waters.

Keely Chambers was dancing with a guy called Simon who's surname I don't know. They were both wearing red.

Gus
10th-March-2004, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
Dan & Lisa were certainly punky, but it must have been another comp where they got disqualified.


If I remember correctly it was the Ceroc Champs (1999). They competed in the Spotlight and totally blew away everyone else (including N&N IMHO) ... BUT ... because the Ceroc judges didn’t know how to score it they disqualified it (?????). They competed in Advanced at Blackpool but weren't place (???) again despite a storming performance. Where I'm coming from is that if you incorporate Latin Ballroom into Jive its still Modern Jive .. but if Hip Hop/Contemporary dance included then its not Modern Jive.

OK ... I know I'm banging on an old drum but I do find it somewhat risible for Modern Jive to be described as 'Modern' when most of the moves being used are at least 40+ years old:devil: I agree with DaveB that HipHop type moves are more 'solo' based but there is room for crossover ... the display by Simon and Keeley demonstrated that quite clearly. HOWEVER ... even though I knew I wouldn’t be troubling the judges on Saturday, most of my preparation was to knock out my natural club style and focus on more Latin type moves and try to include as many drops as possible to be able not to crash and burn. Bit of a shame that the more 'clubby' dancers feel at a disadvantage in competitions (personal view only)
.....

Sheepman
10th-March-2004, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Lory
By the way Greg, I meant to say, thankyou for taking time out for me last night! Really appreciated it!:flower: :hug: No, thank you!
Lesson 2 in a fortnight! Then we'll be swinging!

Greg

Lory
10th-March-2004, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
No, thank you!
Lesson 2 in a fortnight! Then we'll be swinging!

Greg :yeah: Woooo Hooooooo:waycool: :wink:

Gareth
10th-March-2004, 05:51 PM
Keely Chambers was dancing with a guy called Simon who's surname I don't know.

Just to set the record right, Keely Chambers danced with Simon Bowker. They are both fantastic dancers with a pretty unique style. Simon is a true inspiration, by introducing many new ideas and moves to MJ.

IMHO C2D certainly encouraged a latin style of dancer. This suits me, but might be detremental to dancers with "street" Style for example. The finals certainly consisted of Latin Tracks.

Sheepman
11th-March-2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Gus
{ODA Mode On}.... look at the performances of Kate, Can you confirm which Kate you are referring to? I presume you mean Will's partner, but don't forget that there were at least 2 famous Kate's out there on Saturday!

Greg

JamesGeary
11th-March-2004, 03:02 PM
I remember it too, and their routine was definitely the best one, inspring.

I believe they got disqualified because of a lack of traditional modern jive content in the spotlight. But back then people were stick in the mud about that sort of thing. If someone has done ballroom latin style they would have disqualified them too. Luckily the rules have changed now and spotlights are anything goes.

Their freestyle looked good because they were both good individual movers, but you could see that the whole lead / follow thing wasn't cohesive, and looked awkward and rough, which would be why they never did well in Advanced freestyle.

Its not the club style that was ever a problem.

But I do think good performance tends to involve big motions and lots of straight arms, so that you can be seen from a distance. Like you see in musicals & stage shows.

While clubby style has to means dancing minimalist in a small space, like you would at a club. Great for social dancing, but will never attract people's attention from 100 paces.

Bill
11th-March-2004, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by Gus
{ODA Mode On}:wink:

OK .... since when did Modern Jive become Modern Latin Jive?? Looking back over the dominant competition style these days it seems clear that there is a clear move towards the Latin Ballroom style at competitions ... especially for Ladies. any views?


Fran and I discussed this last night and agree that the whole style - especially for women has gone very much into the Latin/ballroom style. If you look even at the outfits that more women are now wearing you can see the influence and that seems to be filtering down through the levels.

It may be a good thing but is that because more women and possibly men are entering who have danced ballroom/latin beofre or because they feel they now have to to do well in major comps ????

The only couple who were placed in either Advanced or Intermediate that I remember not having a'latin' style was Mel and James. Both Lily and Vikotr and C & J have styles which are more of a latin style ( I would suggest) and Hayley - if not latin has a very elegant style which seems more latin than 'true' jive. No coincidence that the three most stylish female dancers competing on the day were the top three in the Advanced !!!:D

Are we getting to a stage where every women is going to try and copy the likes of Lily, Hayley, Jenine et al...... and will they all have to wear glittery skirts ( I'm not objecting by the way :wink: ) ...what happened to all the combat gear from a few years ago ??? have we just moved on.is it a fad..... :confused: :rolleyes:

Wendy
11th-March-2004, 08:58 PM
Maybe I am deluded but I think I DO adopt different styles of dance depending on the music....(and who I am dancing with - apparently I mimic my partner which just fascinates me BTW) I certainly FEEL different ....anyway... what I wear also affects my dance mood or mode... with trainers and stringy trousers I want to do "get down" with Brady or Gus to Toxic and with twirly skirts and heels I want to be sexy and snaky and dance with Bill or Azande to Santana.... I don't feel elegant in trousers and don't feel funky in a skirt....

Re. the comps at the weekend I chose the skirt and heels get-up (cos I was dancing with Stuart who prefers "latin" stuff and also cos naturally I am probably more suited to the snaky stuff ) and ended up getting music that didn't really suit our preferred style and as a result couldn't do our "latin" moves... grrrrrrrr....

I sometimes wonder if the categories should be based on style of music rather on level..... seems a shame that lindy/latin/blues/whatever people who are great at what they do get a track that doesn't allow them to shine... or people who can do all styles don't get a go at all of them ie. have 3 short tracks in intermedaite instead of just one..... and restrict the luck element to the lucky dip......

Wxxxx

TheTramp
11th-March-2004, 09:06 PM
Nice idea Wendy.

I think that if I were choosing music for a competition, I'd try to pick fairly different music for each round. Any couple in with a chance of winning should be able to vary their style to some degree, to enable them to get through a round where the style might not quite suit them.

There should definitely be two tracks in the final, one slow, one faster. And if the slow track has a latin feel, then maybe the fast one should be something more 'funky'. And vice versa.

Ie:

Slow track: Nu Flow. Faster Track: Equador

or

Slow track: Wade in the Water. Fast Track: Heaven

Tracks just off the top of my head, without a great deal of thought. But you'll get the idea....

Trampy

Bill
11th-March-2004, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Nice idea Wendy.



Slow track: Nu Flow. Faster Track: Equador

or

Slow track: Wade in the Water. Fast Track: Heaven


Trampy

or what about Nu Flow and Wade in the Water in the first round....then I'd not have to break sweat...get to dance to two tracks before I get knocked out :wink: :D ....but at least I'd have had 2 dances :na:

TheTramp
12th-March-2004, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by Bill
or what about Nu Flow and Wade in the Water in the first round....then I'd not have to break sweat...get to dance to two tracks before I get knocked out :wink: :D ....but at least I'd have had 2 dances :na: Sorry Bill, but I hear that next competition you're in, the organisers have already earmarked "Zoot Suit Riot" and "Jump, Jive & Wail" for the first round.

Still, what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger, right?

(I give it a 25% chance that he'll be stronger) :devil: :wink:

Trampy

eastmanjohn
12th-March-2004, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Bill
Fran and I discussed this last night and agree that the whole style - especially for women has gone very much into the Latin/ballroom style. If you look even at the outfits that more women are now wearing you can see the influence and that seems to be filtering down through the levels.

It may be a good thing but is that because more women and possibly men are entering who have danced ballroom/latin beofre or because they feel they now have to to do well in major comps ????



I found this on a Hong Kong discussion board.

http://www.mai.com.hk/dance/forums/viewtopic.php?t=767

Seems people are scanning far afield to find a Latin style partner to win MJ competitions with!!!

Bill
12th-March-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Sorry Bill, but I hear that next competition you're in, the organisers have already earmarked "Zoot Suit Riot" and "Jump, Jive & Wail" for the first round.

:devil: :wink:

Trampy

How silly would it look to 'blues' to these two .............:sick: :what: :rolleyes:

Gus
12th-March-2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
Their {Dan and Lisa} freestyle looked good because they were both good individual movers, but you could see that the whole lead / follow thing wasn't cohesive, and looked awkward and rough, which would be why they never did well in Advanced freestyle.

Hmmm ... not sure that I’d agree with that for their performance at Blackpool, (2001) when I thought they really flowed ... but then thats just my fading memory :grin:



While clubby style has to means dancing minimalist in a small space, like you would at a club. Great for social dancing, but will never attract people's attention from 100 paces.

Sorry ... but really don’t agree on this point. 'Club' style can be as dynamic as any other variation on MJ. It also agrees greater latitude for 'solo' moves and breaks away then back to your partner. I would say that there is also a greater capability for impact given the capacity to include fairly 'aggressive' moves yet still stay within the style. Be interested for any corroborating or dissenting comments from anyone who did our 'Club Jive' workshop in Glasgow last year.

Rachel
12th-March-2004, 01:53 PM
It's been funny reading this whole 'latin-style' discussion ....

I've never done any latin dancing, but do think of myself as more of an upright, ballroom-y, ballet-y type dancer and can't do lindy/ funky/clubby style dancing to save my life.

However, just before Blackpool, Marc had been telling me how to try and chancge my style according to the music, and how I should be dancing if we got a swing track, etc etc.

Actually, most of our discussions took place on the morning of the competition. So, of course, when it got to our round and the music started, I just ended up totally confused about what I should and shouldn't be doing. And, in the end, couldn't do anything much at all!!!!

I think that, the moral of the story for me, is to stick with what feels more natural at the moment. And, of course, start attending more hip-hop and other style workshops so that, one day in the future, I might be able to do it!
Rachel

Gareth
12th-March-2004, 03:56 PM
I found this on a Hong Kong discussion board

Have you tried the dance addict quiz yet? :rofl:

Easter Bunny
12th-March-2004, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by Bill
way :wink: ) ...what happened to all the combat gear from a few years ago ??? have we just moved on.is it a fad..... :confused: :rolleyes:


The combat gear is still there - it's just only worn by the people who want to be seen as urban,funky dancers and dance to that style of music. I also agree that a style of dress can affect the style of your dancing.

As has been mentioned by others in this discussion on costume, I feel that how you dance to different styles of music shows that you are actually listening to the music and not just going through the moves or a practiced routine - isn't that what musical interpretation is all about, plus pausing for breaks etc. :confused:
ie. if it's an urban, funky track - dance funky; if it's a latino track - dance upright and latin style, and hopefully if you are very lucky, you will be wearing the appropriate costume to match your dance style for a particular track.

I try, and hope succeed in changing my dance style to match both different partners and the track being played, but not all partners either want and/or can do this, so it is not always foolproof

Do you think the judges would either notice / mark up competitors for changing their style for each track appropriately, or do they just want to see a continuation of one style done at it's best ?:confused:


Lesley

Sheepman
12th-March-2004, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Easter Bunny
Do you think the judges would either notice / mark up competitors for changing their style for each track appropriately, Having had the comment from a judge "that track didn't suit your style" :sad: I would say that they do notice. (Of course what goes on in your own head about what you think your style is, can be very different to what others see.)

Greg

RobC
13th-March-2004, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
LeJive 1998 Intermediate
1st Dan Baines & Lisa Davies 72pts
2nd Derek Harnden & Helena Fletcher 66pts
3rd Phillip Kane & Gaye Hateley 54.5 pts

A couple of other notable names from that comp.

DWAS 4th place - Rob Coward

:yeah: You've got a good memory - I'd forgotten about that one. I won in 1997 though :whistle:

Minnie M
14th-March-2004, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
......... I thought that they were talking about Simon from Bristol (who, with his partner, were both all in red), not Simon Rich........

Met Simon (from Bristol) with his dance partner Keely from Bournmouth yesterday, they danced in the advance but didn't make the finals

Watching them last night, they were amazing :worthy: certainly worthy enough to make the finals :confused:

Gareth
14th-March-2004, 02:15 PM
Your right Simon and Keely are fab dancers, unfortunately this hobby of ours is a judged sport and as such personal preferences vary from one to another.

Apparently my Sister ,Sarah Bayliss was there last night. Do you know her Minnie?

TheTramp
14th-March-2004, 03:03 PM
Not just that, but they may have been dancing better last night than they did at the competition!

Trampy

Gus
14th-March-2004, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Not just that, but they may have been dancing better last night than they did at the competition!

Trampy

Possibly ... but my personal opinion (for what little thats worth) is that they were well worth a place in the final. They were innovative, interpretative and made impact ... and they were the only couple that looked significatnly different to all the Latin dance that pervaded the final. (lights blue touch paper ... awaits the flaming).:devil:

Sorry ... if the trend is for Latin at the moment, then I think its even MORE important for the other variations to be promoted. The skills of the dancers in the final were self evident ... but I'm starting to get bored of the same old performances being trotted out. Lets having some new. Dan Baines ... where are you?? Come to think of it ... how come Taz and partner weren't competeing??:confused: :confused:

DavidB
14th-March-2004, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Gus
if the trend is for Latin at the moment, then I think its even MORE important for the other variations to be promoted.Sounds like positive discrimination to me. I assume you are proposing that the final be made up of the best Latin couple, the best swing couple, the best urban couple, the best jazz couple, the best ballet couple etc. And with only 6 in the final, then who decides which styles are allowed?

And it should be pointed out that it is not just a 'style' competition. There is also the matter of how well you perform the dance to the music...


but I'm starting to get bored of the same old performances being trotted out. Lets having some new.Personally I like the 'urban' style, and it is nice to see more people doing it. But no-one has really developed it since Dan introduced it 6 years ago, and taken it to another level.

The only people I've seen doing anything different style-wise (in freestyle) over the last few years are James Geary and Amir Giles.

David

(As I've said before, I didn't see much of Simon & Keely at Blackpool. These are more general statements.)

Minnie M
14th-March-2004, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Gareth
Apparently my Sister ,Sarah Bayliss was there last night. Do you know her Minnie?

Sorry Gareth, I am terrible with names, is Sarah the attractive slim lady with short fairish hair and a very nice dancer ?

Gus
14th-March-2004, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Sounds like positive discrimination to me. I assume you are proposing that the final be made up of the best Latin couple, the best swing couple, the best urban couple, the best jazz couple, the best ballet couple etc. And with only 6 in the final, then who decides which styles are allowed?


Sorry Dave ... wasn't trying to be that radical. The point I was making was more in terms of people talking about and promoting the other styles rather than judging criteria. As you say, at the end of the day the judges must give marks to those who dance 'best' (whatever that means :sick: ) ... but personaly I think that results over the last 12 months would enourage dancers towards a more elegant style with lots of drops and chroeographed sequences ... 'cause thats what seems to win. The argument as to whether the dancers doing that style are also the best dancers is maybe another question.

Simon
14th-March-2004, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Minnie M
Met Simon (from Bristol) with his dance partner Keeley from Bournemouth yesterday, they danced in the advanced but didn't make the finals

Watching them last night, they were amazing :worthy: certainly worthy enough to make the finals :confused:

:kiss: Easy, Minnie! I thought we'd got our mutual appreciation stuff out of the way last night when we met (but didn't dance :sad: - make up for that next time. :grin: Rock Bottoms Torquay?).

Keeley and I had lots of positive feedback at Blackpool and more since, enough to fire us up to have another go at competing. Don't think we'll ever win anything, though, as I'm never going to be able to wear a sequin! :wink: Perhaps I need to ask my mate Gareth to educate me in the world of sparkly attire? :what:

Daisy
14th-March-2004, 09:44 PM
Hi Simon....it's Jane speaking (aka Jane & Ray). I have to say that I think you would look fab in something sparkly, not necessarily sequined. I don't think it will detract from your obvious masculinity one bit so go for it. I have to hold Ray back from trying to out sparkle me and look how butch he is!!

On a more sensible note I would just like to point out to Gus, for what it's worth, that Ray & I have worked really hard over the past 4 years to reached the standard we are judged to be now. Our style, if we have one, has developed naturally with no deliberate attempt to be one thing or another.....we just dance modern jive. We DO NOT dance routines! that's not allowed! and we DO vary the order in which we might string some moves together. We wear what we wear because it suits us and I look better in dresses than trousers, when we are competing.

For you to say that you are bored by the same old performances being trotted out is really quite insulting to couples who compete regularly and are sucessful. If you want to see something different then you go out there and do it and we will all follow, if it's good enough! Competing and winning is about more than a few shoulder rolls and a few body ripples!

Jane

Gareth
15th-March-2004, 01:46 AM
Ray & I have worked really hard over the past 4 years to reached the standard we are judged to be now

Hi Jane,

I personally thought that you deserved to be placed at Blackpool. It obviously shows that you have been working hard. It takes time and effort to become that smooth and pleasing to watch :worthy:

As I told Ray on the day, Jill & I find you both inspiring. One day we hope to raise ourselves to your very high standards.

Hi Minnie,
That sounds like her she lives in Whitely!!:D

Simon,
I can give you a name of a good designer .http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/3A/41/GarethsLeRoc/1/13.jpg

Gus
15th-March-2004, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Daisy
......We DO NOT dance routines! that's not allowed! and we DO vary the order in which we might string some moves together.........For you to say that you are bored by the same old performances being trotted out is really quite insulting to couples who compete regularly and are sucessful.

I'm sorry if you took my comments personally but I was only making a general comment. A number of people commented that, nice though some of the performances were, similar moves and sequences have been seen before. There HAVE been some innovations, especially from the likes of James G, Kate and Lily ... BUT I was expressing a personal opinion .... albeit a minority view. I'm a great admirer of the likes of C&J and Viktor but that doesn't stop me having a preference for something different. I'm sorry, and I appreciate that you have put a lot of work into your performance ... but I like to see a more 'modern' dance style ... not a comment on your performance, just a personal preference.



Competing and winning is about more than a few shoulder rolls and a few body ripples!


I think that may be something of an oversimplification of what club style dancing is about .... I think the likes of FC & JB, Simon & Keeley and Dan B have clearly demonstrated that:waycool:

Mary
15th-March-2004, 11:26 AM
Competing and winning is about more than a few shoulder rolls and a few body ripples!
------------------------------------------------------------------------



Originally posted by Gus


I think that may be something of an oversimplification of what club style dancing is about .... I think the likes of FC & JB, Simon & Keeley and Dan B have clearly demonstrated that:waycool:

Sheesh, and I've spent ages working on my body ripples!!!!:tears: :tears: :wink:

M

Gadget
15th-March-2004, 12:32 PM
This "Urban"{Much more funky word than "club" :cool:}/"Latin" style is a bit confusing for me... I can see that a lot of moves can be classed as "Urban" or "Latin" ie variants of the same move might invoke a more "urban" feel, and a different variant would invoke a "Latin" feel.
Is this what is meant when people takl about varying their style to suit the music? - Choosing variants that match the flavour.

I think that personal style remains constant, no matter what type of move is performed, so is it just a matter of getting a few more "Urban" moves into circulation.

You then have the issue of "Attitude" - is it seperate from style or moves? Is this what actually changes how you apear to dance with your partner?

{I find it no surprise that a lot of moves are 'latin' in feel - how many latin style dancer are there? How many partner "urban" style dances are there? It involves a lot of work to translate solo urban dancing into partner urban dancing. Similarly, the exposure to this style of dancing is far more limited to the average age group of MJ'ers.

Gus
15th-March-2004, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Similarly, the exposure to this style of dancing is far more limited to the average age group of MJ'ers.


Arrr ... but look at the age range of the people at the top of the tree at the moment ... Ben, Mick and Cynty, Tas & Adam, Viktor, Lily, Simon, Will & Kate, C&J ... all under 30 (or close to it) .....

Simon
15th-March-2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Daisy
Hi Simon.... I have to say that I think you would look fab in something sparkly, not necessarily sequined. I don't think it will detract from your obvious masculinity one bit so go for it. I have to hold Ray back from trying to out sparkle me and look how butch he is!!

Jane

Hi Jane,

Great to see you at Blackpool and am really sorry we didn't get to dance together. I remember posting after Rock Bottoms Brighton last November about what a great dancer you are and after the recent comp that's truer now than ever. :yum: I love the way you and Ray seem to revel in the atmosphere and are constantly grinning during your performances. You also made the most impressive entrance to the dancefloor of all the Advanced contestants on the day (another example of your style that I aim to steal! :whistle: ).

If you think I can get away with sequins then I'll give it more consideration. But maybe only one sequin at a time! :grin:


Originally posted by Gus
Ben, Mick and Cynty, Tas & Adam, Viktor, Lily, Simon, Will & Kate, C&J ... all under 30 (or close to it) .....

Or too close to it! (10 weeks to go!) :sad: I read recently in a magazine that the 30th is "the birthday the average guy wishes he could skip".

Chicklet
15th-March-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Simon
If you think I can get away with sequins then I'll give it more consideration. But maybe only one sequin at a time! :grin:


A big one, strategically placed and nothing else?????:drool: :waycool: :innocent: :flower:

Gadget
15th-March-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Arrr ... but look at the age range of the people at the top of the tree at the moment ... Ben, Mick and Cynty, Tas & Adam, Viktor, Lily, Simon, Will & Kate, C&J ... all under 30 (or close to it) .....
oh well, there goes that theory...

Perhaps someone should convince them to go to a few "Urban" clubs and see if they could come up with some inspired moves?
{...erm... that is assuming Gus's point about the current repertoir being slightly bland is correct (<-passing the buck :innocent: )}

DavidB
15th-March-2004, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Arrr ... but look at the age range of the people at the top of the tree at the moment ... Ben, Mick and Cynty, Tas & Adam, Viktor, Lily, Simon, Will & Kate, C&J ... all under 30 (or close to it) ..... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Chicklet
15th-March-2004, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
. that is assuming Gus's point about the current repertoir being slightly bland is correct (<-passing the buck :innocent: )}

hmmm think there's a bit of a difference between bland and just feeling that one has perhaps seen most of it before??

Stuart M
15th-March-2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Easter Bunny
I also agree that a style of dress can affect the style of your dancing.

Certainly with regards footwear IMHO. "Urban" style, I feel, requires a bit more grip for the bloke (and probably less spinning for the ladies?). I would have thought dance trainers would be the way to go for that slightly stronger grip (there's probably technical issues about friction points etc. here - any physicists on the Forum?).

Plus it looks better anyway :) .

Conversely, Latin/blues in sneakers looks less elegant, less "slidy". Just my opinion - I find I can't trust my foot placement so much in dance shoes than with trainers.

TheTramp
15th-March-2004, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Arrr ... but look at the age range of the people at the top of the tree at the moment ... Ben, Mick and Cynty, Tas & Adam, Viktor, Lily, Simon, Will & Kate, C&J ... all under 30 (or close to it) ..... Actually, I think that at least half of that list are over 30, some are well over 30 (which is probably why David is laughing so much).

For the record (I know that we're not at the top of the tree in your eyes Gus, even though we recently beat several of the people in your list), I'm well over 30, and Hayley is well under 30!

Trampy

Gus
15th-March-2004, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
...erm... that is assuming Gus's point about the current repertoir being slightly bland is correct I said what??? The point I was trying to make ... obviously very badly ... was that a lot of what I saw at the Blackpool champs I've seen before. OK ... the word 'bored' was the wrong word to use ... but I was trying to say that it didn't inspire me ... to be honest I was more excited by FC and JBs performance in the Intermediate than I was by the Advanced Final. :waycool:

That may well be because I've seen many of the Advanced dancers perform many times, and that there is a consistent theme to their dancing .... but please dont quote me as saying "bland" ...... Viktor&Lily = BLAND:tears: :tears: :tears: ... you want to see me disappeared for heresy????:wink:

Gadget
15th-March-2004, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Gus
I said what???
:innocent: tee he he

OK, so I was putting words in your mouth; I did edit it from "Un-inspiring", but since I wasn't there to judge for myself I thought I would prod a little more. :wink:

ChrisA
15th-March-2004, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Gus
but I was trying to say that it didn't inspire me ...
The trouble is, familiarity can breed, if not contempt, at least, indifference.

In the words of another song...

"Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you got till it's gone..."

Chris :tears:

Easter Bunny
15th-March-2004, 04:26 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gadget
[B]This "Urban"{Much more funky word than "club" :cool:}/"Latin"

Thanks Gadget - I use the expression 'urban' to describe the dance styles of the likes of Dan; Taz and Adam; Ben and Holly and Simon and Keely.

Having two kids in the house (well...... aged 20 and 22) who dance 'club' style in and around the night clubs in Bristol which encapsulates house/trance and R & B styles they would be horrified to think their styles of dancing was remotely 'jive' so therefore I do not think of it as 'club' style but more 'urban' as in hip-hop.

Sorry - but when you live with kids of this age they soon put you in your place and tell you to 'get with the programme' and look out if you are not.

Daisy (Jane)
As a follow on from what you were saying about dance styles, you and Ray always look great on the dance floor with your latin style and always look like you are having such fun. I wonder though, having watched you dance with Mark (ie Mark & Jackie from Cardiff) at Blackpool during Saturday evening, whether you found the 'urban' stlye harder to follow ? I don't think many people appreciate how much harder it is to follow the urban style when you are not used to it as they do not immediately appear to be traditionally structured moves as we know them and rely much more on personal style and musical interpretation I think, or indeed do many appreciate how good the followers of these partners are to keep up !
Love the costumes by the way - did you make yours and did you dye Ray's trousers - they were a fantastic blue !

Simon - you would look good in anything - sequins or not (better than Prince William in fact!)

Lesley

DavidB
15th-March-2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Easter Bunny
I don't think many people appreciate how much harder it is to follow the urban style when you are not used to it as they do not immediately appear to be traditionally structured moves as we know them and rely much more on personal style and musical interpretation I think, or indeed do many appreciate how good the followers of these partners are to keep up !Good point. I would generally only try to do anything approaching an 'urban' style with someone I knew danced that way. As Easter Bunny says, most of the ladies that can do this are very good dancers anyway. Maybe someone needs to simplify some of the ideas and teach it to a more general audience. After all - isn't that one of the core ideas of Modern Jive.

(My 'urban' style consists of standing still in an 'urban' sort of way, as opposed to standing still in a 'Latin' sort of way, or a 'swing' sort of way. Doing nothing is the same in any dance style! Doesn't really work for the ladies though...)

David

Chicklet
15th-March-2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
(My 'urban' style consists of standing still in an 'urban' sort of way,
David
In an urban Hawaiian Shirt, obviously:flower:

Gadget
15th-March-2004, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Easter Bunny
I don't think many people appreciate how much harder it is to follow the urban style when you are not used to it as they do not immediately appear to be traditionally structured moves as we know them and rely much more on personal style and musical interpretation I think, or indeed do many appreciate how good the followers of these partners are to keep up !
I think I see what you mean, but the only thing I have to reference to is an old workshop that Gus did and films like "Save the Last Dance" or adverts like the new I pod one. {really need to get myself a copy of a few competitions... any recommendations?}

The differences as I see them:
- Most of the leads seem to be body leads with non-contact repetitions or mirrors. I think that a lot of practice in mirroring and mimicry would be needed before it flowed as smoothly as a standard physical lead.
- A lot of the "funk" seems to come from footwork (which is not my favourite thing).
- The "Attitude" is cool as opposed to the heat of latin stylings. Still has the same 'passion' - just the 'latin' is molten and the "urban" is electric.
- Most of the "Latin" moves are close, eye-gazing and carressing. The "Urban"is more confident and pushes the lady away to see/appreciate all of her and carress with the eyes.
- The times that Urban gets close, it's more synchronus (sp?) where the bodys follow each other rather than the lead dominating and focusing the attention on his partner.
- The latin style has the lady as the aloof partner, with the men trying to seduce; the urban style has the men being aloof and the lady making the advances.

This last point is what I think makes it very hard to incorporate into MJ: How can the men lead when it is the ladies who are trying to seduce?



originally posted by DavidB
(My 'urban' style consists of standing still in an 'urban' sort of way...)
:rofl: :rofl:

spindr
15th-March-2004, 06:31 PM
Well, I hope try out my new "urban" style and follow the forefront of chart music soon. However, I'm having troubles leading the criss-cross and charlie brown in freestyle, so any tips would be most useful -- though I have hopes that I may be able to dust off my cha-cha-cha, although I didn't see many hand-to-hands or hockey sticks in DJ Casper's video :)

SpinDr.

P.S. Gadget you might like to check out the new film "Honey" might have some new urban moves...

LilyB
15th-March-2004, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Sorry ... if the trend is for Latin at the moment, then I think its even MORE important for the other variations to be promoted. The skills of the dancers in the final were self evident ... but I'm starting to get bored of the same old performances being trotted out. Lets having some new. Dan Baines ... where are you?? Come to think of it ... how come Taz and partner weren't competeing??:confused: :confused:

Taz and Adam weren't competing because Adam was injured. It is also worth pointing out that Taz and Adam came in second in a recent major competition (the Showcase and Open sections at the 2003 Britroc), so their style of dancing is recognised and appreciated by judges.

As for your views regarding "same old performances", I have tried to avoid that by competing with a different partner at every freestyle competition I have entered. Not only have the styles of all my partners been completely different from each other, but as a result I have had to adapt my style to (hopefully) suit them. Or perhaps people think that I still dance in the same style no matter who my partner is.:tears:

Ah well - there's always room for improvement . . . :wink:

LilyB

Minnie M
15th-March-2004, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Actually, I think that at least half of that list are over 30, some are well over 30 .......

:yeah: but they don't look it, even if they are :worthy:

Gus
15th-March-2004, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
For the record (I know that we're not at the top of the tree in your eyes Gus, even though we recently beat several of the people in your list), I'm well over 30, and Hayley is well under 30!


My quote was not aimed at disputing your placing in the World MJ rankings but a listing of those who (I thought) were 30 and below. If someone would care to point out who in the list is well over 30 I will of course remove them from my list and await their retribution on your own ageing self :grin:

Chris
15th-March-2004, 09:09 PM
Hi - 'fraid I haven't been following all this thread, but just a couple of personal thoughts on the original question ...

'Latin' is included in the description of ceroc and this is not new - Nicky Haslam's Australian intro (eg on her tapes or prob on her website) says that it is a blend of a number of things and describes it similarly.

Mike Ellard's interest in salsa is well-known, so it would not be surprising if he wanted to emphasise the contribution salsa and latin dances make and can make to ceroc.

As to 'competition style' I personally think this is quite different. As a general rule, I would continue to expect that judges would rule out dancers whose dance isn't at least say 70% recognisable 'Ceroc' type dance whatever that is understood to mean and that's often written into the rules. But. . . what does it take to be a winner?

Looking at winners lists, it struck me that as far as I can see maybe there are two groups, and people who win consistently probably fall into one or both groups.

1) Technically stunning.
In this category, names that come to mind include Nicky and Robert, Janine and Clayton. The techinical perfection aspect is the thing that amazes. There are many technically very good dancers who don't fall into this category - they are brilliant (often brilliant teachers) but their technical brilliance isn't so astounding as to be a main factor to produce a winner.

2) Very interesting.
These are people who are just intensely fascinating to watch for one reason or another and have sufficient technical grasp not to be marked down for mistakes. For instance, Steve Lampert doesn't have technical brilliance to the same degree as Nicky and Robert (IMHO) but he is usually very interesting to watch.

Based on this, I'd maybe conclude that if a dancer doesn't have very many years of dance background (possibly including good training in a strict dance form such as ballet or ballroom) the chances of that dancer winning competitions consistently on technical brilliance alone is maybe pretty slim. CTA teaching can't achieve this - it ensures people have reached a high standard and have teaching skills. People who are very good technically may make excellent teachers, but this is different from being so technically brilliant that it's just dazzling to watch by people of at level.

On the other hand, maybe any 'beginner' ;) can put in the sheer application, hard work, and personal sacrifice to achieve top success by learning to be stunningly interesting to watch.

This is quite apart from the question of why on earth do you want to compete anyway?? Answering that can be quite soul-searching and very revealing. Your personal ambitions as a dancer may even conflict with what is required to win a jive competition. Given the choice, I'd say follow your heart!

To me at the moment, jive competions are not very important to me or a measure of anything that is important for me to achieve, but I enjoyed doing them for a while and will no doubt enjoy them again socially. My dance interests are simply defined by other things - we all go through phases and this is mine.

TheTramp
15th-March-2004, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Chris
1) Technically stunning.
2) Very interesting.
Is this the 'moves' v 'musicality' question again Chris??

Trampy

PS. Thanks for the compliment

TheTramp
15th-March-2004, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by Gus
but a listing of those who (I thought) were 30 and below. If someone would care to point out who in the list is well over 30 I will of course remove them from my list and await their retribution on your own ageing self :grin: Well, I'm not naming any names (I wouldn't dare), but I think that there are only 4 people below 30 in that list. One, by his own admission is only there for a few more weeks, and the other is around 28.

If you wanted a list of people well under 30 who might be in a lot of people's 'want to watch' list (and who have done well at major competitions), I think it'd look more like:

Ben, Adam, Sean, Hollie, Hayley, Kate. I'm sure there's more, but I'm getting on, and my memory isn't what it used to be.....

Having said that, I think that most of the rest of the people who are consistently doing well in competitions over the last few years, or are just people who catch the eye, are at least around/almost 30, or some are even a couple of years past it:

Viktor, Lily, Nigel & Nina, Simon, Marilene, Andy & Rena, Clayton & Janine, Mick & Cynty, Ray & Jane, Amir, Will & Kate, Nicky & Robert, Simon & Taina, Taz, Debster, Simon & Christine, Simon, Mark & Jackie, Graham & Sarah, Me .....again, apologies to all the people I've missed out.

Hence, I'm not sure that I agree with your point that


Originally posted by Gus
but look at the age range of the people at the top of the tree at the moment ...... all under 30Though, some of them may be (as you said) close to it.

Trampy

Daisy
15th-March-2004, 09:53 PM
Thankyou Gareth and Simon for your lovely remarks. It's always great to get 'possitive' feedback.

I loved the reply about Simon wearing one strategically placed sequin....please can I choose where to put it!

DavidB....you crack me up with your comments. Standing still doing latin, urban whatever...:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Oh the age thing...thats really funny. I wish Ray & I were that young!! If only you knew!:tears:

With regards to my dance with Mark......what a great dancer he is.
Not as easy to follow as some and not quite the same style as me but I do my best. Could have been the 4/5 Breezers I'd drank having an effect of course! Mark is extremely musical and interprets in quite unusual ways, I think it's fair to say that with a bit more time dancing with him it would be possible to improve on connection etc.

Chris A...you are soooo.. right. Familiarity does breed contempt. It's also a case of some people making something quite difficult look incredible easy. It's only when you try it for yourself that you realise it's not quite as simple as it looks.

Lily....you are fantasic girl and you can, simply and purely, DANCE!

Daisy
15th-March-2004, 10:17 PM
Just a little note to let you know that Ray has just returned from the Post Office where he went to collect his pension! He asked me what was on the forum so, after I'd turned up his hearing aid, I told him all about it.

We will be able to dance to much faster music in future cos his pacemaker has just been undated! We've had the chip changed from 'latin' to 'urban/club' so watch this space!

Now I can't stop him rippling....or is that the fat!:sick:

I think it's fair to say that we will be well and truely at the TOP of the age list!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Mary
15th-March-2004, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by Daisy
Just a little note to let you know that Ray has just returned from the Post Office where he went to collect his pension! He asked me what was on the forum so, after I'd turned up his hearing aid, I told him all about it.

We will be able to dance to much faster music in future cos his pacemaker has just been undated! We've had the chip changed from 'latin' to 'urban/club' so watch this space!

Now I can't stop him rippling....or is that the fat!:sick:

I think it's fair to say that we will be well and truely at the TOP of the age list!!!


Way to go girl! :rofl: :rofl: Long may you be an inspiration to us all.:cheers: :clap: :worthy: :worthy:

M

PS had to delete your smilies to get mine in!!!!:blush:

Divissima
16th-March-2004, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by Trampy:
at least around/almost 30, or some are even a couple of years past it:

Viktor, Lily, Nigel & Nina, Simon, Marilene, Andy & Rena, Clayton & Janine, Mick & Cynty, Ray & Jane, Amir, Will & Kate... Steady on, Trampy - Amir has a looooong way to go before he hits 30. Janine may also dispute being 'around/almost 30', and I always thought Robert Winter was a young thing. Happy to be corrected. :waycool:

Gadget
16th-March-2004, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Chris
Looking at winners lists, it struck me that as far as I can see maybe there are two groups, and people who win consistently probably fall into one or both groups.

1) Technically stunning.
2) Very interesting.
I don't get how you can be technically stunning without being very interesting.
And I don't get how being very interesting can exist without being technically stunning.

:confused:

{does anyone else feel really old with the turn of the conversation :tears:}

Gary
16th-March-2004, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
I don't get how you can be technically stunning without being very interesting.


Execute one tricky move absolutely perfectly, repeat the exact same move for the whole song.



And I don't get how being very interesting can exist without being technically stunning.

Juggle kittens while dancing badly?

Sorry, late, not very serious.

foxylady
16th-March-2004, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Having said that, I think that most of the rest of the people who are consistently doing well in competitions over the last few years, or are just people who catch the eye, are at least around/almost 30, or some are even a couple of years past it:

snip ...... Simon & Taina, .........snip

Though, some of them may be (as you said) close to it.

Trampy



mmmm.... as I went to Simons' 30th over a decade ago, and well before Tania was his partner I think its safe to say he's a couple of years past 30 !!!:whistle:

Robert Winter
16th-March-2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Divissima
I always thought Robert Winter was a young thing. Happy to be corrected. :waycool:

Yes you are quite right I am still a young thing, though when a girl at dancing the other week asked me, and I told her I was 25, she called me an old fart, so I suppose it is another one of those perspective things.

Divissima
16th-March-2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Robert Winter:
one of those perspective thingsAh yes. I turned 30 on my last birthday - 25 now lost in the mists of time :tears:

DavidB
16th-March-2004, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Robert Winter
though when a girl at dancing the other week asked me, and I told her I was 25, she called me an old fart, so I suppose it is another one of those perspective things. You will soon get the next independent confirmation that you are getting old. You go to a bar, and comment that the music is good. The barman replies "Yes - it is an Nineties night"...
The only good thing is that you are in a bar, so you can drown your sorrows, and get old ungracefully.

Unfortunately when this happened to me, it was an Eighties night.

ChrisA
16th-March-2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
so you can drown your sorrows, and get old ungracefully.
You mean 'disgracefully'. Or you should :D

Chris
16th-March-2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Is this the 'moves' v 'musicality' question again Chris??


Not sure . . . similar perhaps though.

The musicality thing is interpreted in various ways . . . and whereas holding an audience's interest can be down to musicality in the sense of responding to breaks, counterpoint, words of the song etc, holding (and maintaining) interest as a continuously coherent thing also makes me think of things like applying (obviously I suppose) blues interpretation to ceroc, or things more akin to Argentinean tango 'story-telling'.

Fred Astaire would tell a story through a dance - the dance would have a 'beginning, a middle and an end' - almost like a one-act play . . .

I don't see this in say Nicky's dancing except for her choreographed team cabarets, but her dancing is nevertheless exciting from moment to moment.

In modern ballet (and contemporary dance) we see the same two strands - in Europe, I'm told, people are quite happy to watch a ballet or dance show without any implied 'story' - it may be non-linear. In Britain, many audiences find this way of working incongruous or too 'experimental'.

I think both are just as valid btw.

Haven't expressed this very well - still something I'm playing with and haven't thought of the words I want to use yet . . .

Martin
16th-March-2004, 04:13 PM
quote:

Originally posted by Gus
but look at the age range of the people at the top of the tree at the moment ...... all under 30



WHAT? nah... :blush:



quote:

Originally posted by Robert Winter
though when a girl at dancing the other week asked me, and I told her I was 25, she called me an old fart, so I suppose it is another one of those perspective things.

Most "out there" dancers have a few more years than 30...

a few exceptions - old fart Robert - well stop dancing with those school kids and move on...