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Gus
8th-March-2004, 09:51 AM
Just start this thread off quickly .....

Pre Blackpool postings and events on the day clearly raised the issue that there are inconsistencies about who should be in what category. So .... whats the solution?

Initial thoughts

Firstly, need to have 3 categories, to allow a differentiation between 'advanced' dancers and 'superstars'.

Secondly, lets just get over this thing that Teachers are The Best. Most teachers, be they Blitz, CTA LeRoc would feel very uncomfortable in the top advanced category ... did you notice how few teachers there were competing? Did you notice the near total absence of teachers in the Advanced Final ... think that tells us all something

Third ... lets stomp out the cheating b*stards who entered Intermediates when they should be in advanced. I saw at least one teacher I know (admittedly a 'cowboy') and I was told of a few other who clearly should not have been in that category. don’t know what the answer is but if someone is seen 'cheating' like that how about a 'name and shame' or a ban?

Anyway ... what does everyone else think?

Andy McGregor
8th-March-2004, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Gus
Just start this thread off quickly .....

Gus beat me to it. I've been waiting weeks to start this thread but thought, like Gus, that it should wait 'til after Blackpool.

IMHO the first thing we need to consider is the need for different categories. If we consider other 'sporting' activities outside dance there aren't many examples of categorization by ability. You have heats, the winners go through, there are rounds where the numbers are whittled down until you have a final where you find a winner - easy:waycool:

Here is the question I think we need to answer before we can decide/debate categories:

Why do we need/have categories in Modern Jive?

I have an opinion on this but think it would be more democratic if people post what they think about the need for categories rather than debate/disagree with my opinion.

Paul F
8th-March-2004, 11:25 AM
Ive mentioned this in the Blackpool thread but I think the style and interpretation shown by many in the intermediate category deserves to be in the advanced. They were absolutely awesome.

Trouble is, as mentioned, we have the serial winners :drool: in the advanced so this will surely put people off entering.

This might suit many but my only reservation is when thinking about the casual observer. People new, or not quite so new, will be looking at that intermediate category at Blackpool and, like the rest of us, thinking WOW :really: :really: Thats what i have to do to be an INTERMEDIATE ??? :tears: :tears:

If we could 'elevate' the seasoned winners up to a Masters category (as mentined for placed couples in the last x months) we could have others moving up to advanced and maybe bring in the less experienced dancers to give it a go at intermediate.

Otherwise we will just end up with a competition composed entirely of advanced dancers in all categories.

As for all teachers being advanced.........well , i dont really believe that. Many are, but all teachers countrywide???? Doubt it.

Lastly, as i have mentioned elsewhere I would really enjoy watching something along the lines of DWAS Advanced. Get the advanced dancers dancing with other adv dancers who are NOT their regular partners.

(addition - forgot about the categories question :blush: )
I think we have to have categories. Cant see many people going up agains the likes of Victor, C+J, G+S etc in open heats :grin:

Boomer
8th-March-2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Paul F
Lastly, as i have mentioned elsewhere I would really enjoy watching something along the lines of DWAS Advanced. Get the advanced dancers dancing with other adv dancers who are NOT their regular partners.


I quite like the sound of that myself. I think the random element would be a great chance to see the 'best of the best' freestyling as if they mean business :grin:

As for the categories, can't really see any other option other than some kind of grading system - draconian laws notwithstanding. Perhaps the grading needn't be a nationwide, every dancer has to have a test kind of thing. Rather, anyone who wants to compete has a personal evaluation with their regular teacher, who signs them off at a grade. This chit then supports your catergorie choice. Other than that, christ knows!

Seeing as I'll never compete, glad its just a theoretical issue for me :grin:

bigdjiver
8th-March-2004, 12:13 PM
Assuming that it were possible to rank every dancer in the country, then whereever the boundaries are set determines which set of dancers are competing for the top spot in that category.

It also means that anybody that comes just above the qualifying mark has practically no chance of winning anything.

A simple example is soccer. There are only a handful of clubs which are in contention for each division title. The bottom teams in the premiership are much superior to the top six in divison 3, but stand less chance of winning silverware.

The fairest way to have a merit category other than open would be open to anyone who has not met certain success criteria in other competitions. This will still be very contentious, but at least open to scrutiny.

It would also be tricky for would be contestants, who would have to asses whether winning one contest was an acceptable price to pay for being eliminated from another.

Given that most enterants that enter the intermediate competition are not going to win it, I cannot see why it would not be acceptable to them to settle for not winning the open competition.

Another possible solution is regional heats, based on the electoral register. There would have to be strict rules on how the regions are cobbled together, as this would have to be done after the enterants were known. It would have to be done by constituency for the UK, and state or country from abroad. A combination of rules and dice might be required to attain equal sized "regions". In extremis we could have Hammersmith, Fulham and Bulgaria, for example.

Bill
8th-March-2004, 12:19 PM
Have mixed feelings about this. A DWAS Advanced category would be great fun - and I know from David that they do this in America and they look sensational - but we are talking real top dancers.

Would the 'top' dancers be really happy to dance with other partners if they've been practising with their own partner for ages ???

To have only one competition which everyone enters would quickly reduce the number of applicants I think. I can't imagine many, if any, genuine Intermediates paying money to enter the same level as Viktor, C & J, Lily et al.....

And Gus is right to say that the teachers aren't always the best. I reckon James was as good as many of the men in the Advanced section and he's only been dancing a couple of years so neither teacher status nor length of time dancing are fully accurate criteria for the different categories.

I think it's been suggested before but what about one opening section with every couple with the best going through into a second round and then the winners of round two or possibly round three going into one section for Advanced and the rest going into Intermediate ??? The decision on level would then be in the hands of the judges.

Would also mean that couples wouldn't have to enter twice or hedge their bets !!

Lounge Lizard
8th-March-2004, 12:23 PM
I think there should be :
Intermediate open to all social dancers
Advanced open to all including teachers but not 'Major competition winners - (see below)
Open catagory for the superstars (not automaticly including all teachers) eg Top 3 placement in showcase or advance in any major comp. (winners only of showcase/advanced in regional comp)

Grading
Winners of a (regional) competition automaticly go up to next competition level,
1st 2nd & 3rd in major competition automaticly go up to next level
Any entrant in a showcase is automaticly advanced catagory
this applies to either partner

Maintain criteria two years from winning/placement

oh and please reduce the number of warm up tracks played in the C2D (sorry meant take a chance) comp - with SO many rounds this is where the time was eaten into and it is only a fun comp, have a max 30 sec intro then one track and next round

Paul F
8th-March-2004, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard

oh and please reduce the number of warm up tracks played in the C2D comp - with SO many rounds this is where the time was eaten into and it is only a fun comp, have a max 30 sec intro then one track and next round

I agree with the whole message but i want to emphasize that i definately agreee with this bit.
Got to cut down the time it took to get through it all.

David Franklin
8th-March-2004, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Bill
I think it's been suggested before but what about one opening section with every couple with the best going through into a second round and then the winners of round two or possibly round three going into one section for Advanced and the rest going into Intermediate ??? The decision on level would then be in the hands of the judges.The problem with this (and I think it's a HUGE problem) is that you're basically rewarding the people who "only just missed getting into advanced" a lot better than the people who "only just managed to get into advanced". In one case you get a trophy, in the other, you go out in the first round of the advanced. Maybe I'm cynical, but I can see people playing games and "dancing down" to try to get into the intermediate cut.

I'd rather see the categories affect the rules, music and judging. In intermediate, you might not allow dips and drops, the music could be relatively straightforward, and the judges could put much less emphasis on rewarding complex moves, multiple spins etc. [Of course, depending on your POV, you might say these should be the restrictions on the advanced category :devil:] And letting the advanced competitors have more space per dancer and fewer dancers cut per round would be a good incentive to enter advanced and not intermediate.

Dave

ChrisA
8th-March-2004, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by David Franklin
In intermediate ... the music could be relatively straightforward
OMG... please no more "relatively straightforward" than it already is :tears: - at least in the early rounds.

With "Slow" and "Toxic" in the final, though, I don't think you could ask for anything much better.

Does anyone know who chose these tracks for the final? A big :worthy: , whoever that was...

Chris

David Franklin
8th-March-2004, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
OMG... please no more "relatively straightforward" than it already is :tears: - at least in the early rounds. I seem to recall you having a track with almost a 1 minute "intro" in one of your rounds - everyone at our table was thinking "I'd hate to have to dance to that!". Felt much more appropriate for advanced IMHO.

But regardless, I was trying to get provide some possible incentives for people to do advanced rather than intermediate as it currently seems that most see advanced as being all "downside" unless you have a reasonable chance of placing. In that context, if you want more challenging music, you know what category to enter. Obviously there needs to be some kind of balance though!

Dave

ChrisA
8th-March-2004, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by David Franklin
I seem to recall you having a track with almost a 1 minute "intro" in one of your rounds - everyone at our table was thinking "I'd hate to have to dance to that!". Felt much more appropriate for advanced IMHO.

I did have a moment or two when I thought "god is it all going to be like this" :D

But until the final (which I'll say again, had two absolutely storming tracks), that track was an exception, IMHO. Jayne and I were in the first heat of round 2, so we got to relax and watch the rest of it - for the most part I was totally underwhelmed by the music.



In that context, if you want more challenging music, you know what category to enter.

Actually I think it's MUCH more challenging to try and dance interpretively to music with all the interest of a metronome.

I think they should swap over the music between Intermediate and Advanced. In fact, how about "Dance the night away" for the Advanced final. See how Trampy gets on then :devil:

Chris

Mary
8th-March-2004, 01:41 PM
One of the reasons I wanted to move up from Intermediate to Advanced was you get better music in Advanced - hummmmphhhh.

M

Lounge Lizard
8th-March-2004, 01:42 PM
I think Sarah selected ALL the music for the competition
p

TheTramp
8th-March-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
I think they should swap over the music between Intermediate and Advanced. In fact, how about "Dance the night away" for the Advanced final. See how Trampy gets on then :devil:
:slap:

Trampy

djsaz
8th-March-2004, 01:55 PM
hi guys,

firstly can i say as dj alongside nigel for the comp, what a fantastic day i had, made me feel jealous that i wasnt out there competing. also a big thanx to pete, roger, rob and jb for their fantastix sets.

as for the music choice, that was down not just to myself but to ange, tony and nick... we met a couple of weeks ago, and spent a massive amount if time listening and chosing music for each round. So although I had a lot of input, it was another team effort.

hope you all enjoyed every minute as much as we did, am home now catching up on the one thing - sleep!!

take care, see you next yr

sarah

xx

djsaz
8th-March-2004, 02:09 PM
as LL mentions, please feel free to send me your comments about the music, its all important to help improve and refine for next yr.

look forward to hearing from you

x

Gadget
8th-March-2004, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by Bill
I think it's been suggested before but what about one opening section with every couple with the best going through into a second round and then the winners of round two or possibly round three going into one section for Advanced and the rest going into Intermediate ??? The decision on level would then be in the hands of the judges.
I agree with this {well, I would: I suggested it :wink:} I don't think that there is a better way than to split people on the day into the various competition levels. It also means that you get more dancing - being "knocked out" in the first round just means that you are now competing in the "Intermediates". Second round "Advanced" and the rest are then in the "Masters".
You will always get people that just scrape through into the next cattegory - but you need to draw a line somewhere.
I also agree that the music should be more challenging in the more advanced cattegories.

Ranking people is just too much hastle; awarding points for results and colating all the information would require a national body that communicated with everyone. And a lot of people would not like to be "judged" purely by numbers and their ranking. I can see too many down sides to this method.

Competition cattegories...
Firstly, why do the crinklies get a seperate cattegory to dance in? {:devil:} Does age make a difference to your ability to dance? I don't see how.

I like the DWAS concept: it tests your actual dancing ability and not your ability to choreograph micro-routines with your partner. Is splitting the ability level in this sort of competition necissary? Isn't it half the fun seeing who you draw against(/with)?
You could also vary the methods used to actually judge - ie same partner from draw throughout; swap partners every round; swap partners every track;...
Perhaps a DWAS Double trouble (/"menage a troi")? Could be interesting...

I like the spotlight and caberet ideas - could they be combined? How do you mark a douzen people against two? I don't think it could be.

I think perhaps a "Introduction" cattegory - you can only enter it once; as an introduction to competitions. Sort of a beginners cattegory, but open to anyone who hasn't competed before.

You could also have "fun" cattegories that run allong side the main event like best/worst dressed, best newbie, top forumite {:wink:}, best smile, most fun, rising star... and are awarded with the main prizes.

Dreadful Scathe
8th-March-2004, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver

Given that most enterants that enter the intermediate competition are not going to win it

Most ? ALL of them bar the winning couple in fact :D


Originally posted by bigdjiver
I cannot see why it would not be acceptable to them to settle for not winning the open competition.


You could equally say it would be acceptable to them to settle for not winning the Super Advanced Masters of Dance Gods Open Competition. if you're suggesting the degree of losing is unimportant.

Why would you enter something if you knew you had no hope at all of progressing in it? Sure there are some that may aim to try to get in the next round but does anyone really enter with no prospects whatsoever? thats why people enter the catagories they do, they want to look half decent, something they won't get dancing next to people far in advance of themselves. I'm always embarrased about my own performances and my low opinion of myself doesnt do me any favours when Im being judged - but how would i fair surrounded by the people i love watching knowing they are so much better than me*? you cant decide for others when they are ready to 'move up' other than obvious rules like 'they win one level, go up to the next' sort of idea, but we can introduce other catagories to help the situation.

*Saying that though practice breeds confidence, so we'll see....as long as i can put on a good show :)

spindr
8th-March-2004, 02:39 PM
Ok, a brief thought...

Howabout modifying "Dance with a stranger" to "Dance with a friend" -- pair everyone up (who can make it for the evening) at the preceding evening event. Then up to the pair to decide how much they practice before the competition -- if at all. Could make the event easier to organise the next day -- less requirement for DWAS warmups, etc., etc.

Thoughts?
SpinDr.

Gus
8th-March-2004, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Why would you enter something if you knew you had no hope at all of progressing in it?

Good point well made. For any event you need to be clear as to why the event is being held. Competitions like Jive Masters are there to showcase the 'best of the best'. Most of the National Dance comps are there to present a showcase of the best but also to give your average club dancer something to aspire to, a motivation to improve. As has been said, to be motivated you need to be stretched ... not demoralised. You probably KNOW that you're not going to win ... but for many of us, myself included there is a real sense in achievement in getting through the first round. To that end, I think there is a need for categories, so that people always have that next peak in their sights ... something to strive for.



I'm always embarrassed about my own performances and my low opinion of myself doesn’t do me any favours when Im being judged

Dear Smurf ..... one day you guys will dance in competition the way you dance socially ... and that place in the final will be yours ... :grin:

TheTramp
8th-March-2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Dear Smurf ..... one day you guys will dance in competition the way you dance socially ... and that place in the final will be yours ... :grin: Well said Gus. And so very true.

Trampy

David Franklin
8th-March-2004, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
I like the DWAS concept: it tests your actual dancing ability and not your ability to choreograph micro-routines with your partner. Is splitting the ability level in this sort of competition necissary? Isn't it half the fun seeing who you draw against(/with)?The thing about the "random draw" is that usually luck plays a big part in who wins. I'm certainly not saying ability isn't important, but basically, "you have to be good and lucky". The consequence is that you can't really take it too seriously. It's the category people enter for fun, which is great. But given how MJ is supposed to be a social dance, it might be nice to have a category where social dancing ability is taken seriously. [And it might not. Is "serious social dancing" an oxymoron?].


You could also vary the methods used to actually judge - ie same partner from draw throughout; swap partners every round; swap partners every track;...Swapping partners reduces the luck element a lot, and also those people who spend 3 hours between rounds practising moves... On the other hand, the camaraderie of sticking with one stranger over the competition is rather nice.


Perhaps a DWAS Double trouble (/"menage a troi")? Could be interesting...I think double trouble is specialised enough, with most people using special signals etc. that a DWAS version would be painful to watch - nearly all hatchbacks and ladyspins.


I like the spotlight and caberet ideas - could they be combined? How do you mark a douzen people against two? I don't think it could be.I agree - hard enough to mark a 30 people show against a 3 couple show.

My suggestion (to help with the whole "too many spotlights" problem as well): something like how they do theatre arts competitions. Organizers preannounce a track in advance (and I mean a LONG time in advance; maybe a year). Couples choreograph a routine to it, and they all are on the floor at once. [You might have a few choices of track, and need two rounds if 10 people want to do the same piece of music, but that's all fiddling with the basic idea]. You could possibly use this as a qualifier for the individual spotlights if you wanted to reduce the number of spotlights.

Related suggestion: Maybe something like this for the airsteps? A lot of people have commented on the lack of musicality in this section currently. I can assure you we don't want to ignore the music. But a major airstep may take up 20 seconds - that's the equivalent of maybe 10 "normal" moves. Ignoring the difficulty of the moves, just imagine trying to "hit a break" that many moves ahead with an unknown track. (Now do it to a 160bpm track while holding someone over your head :wink: ) A bit of preparation and choreography and it would be a much better show for the spectators. I'm obviously not an unbiased commentator on this one, but given that you would never do airsteps in social freestyle, there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to do it the way it's done currently. On a personal note - the airsteps are scary enough without having to worry about what track you might get!


I think perhaps a "Introduction" cattegory - you can only enter it once; as an introduction to competitions. Sort of a beginners cattegory, but open to anyone who hasn't competed before.I think this is a great idea, just not sure exactly what the details would be. DavidB may want to explain how "rising star" and "novice" work in the US?

Dave

DavidY
8th-March-2004, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
I like the DWAS concept: it tests your actual dancing ability and not your ability to choreograph micro-routines with your partner. At the Tea Dance yesterday, lots of folk doing Ballroom/ Latin/ Sequence, everything is choreographed and it matters if you're on the wrong foot on the wrong beat of the bar.

MJ isn't like that, and one of its big strengths is the freedom to interpret the music.

IMO one of the great things about watching James and Filthycute * at the weekend was the way they interpreted the music. Would they have been able to do that interpretation in a DWAS competition without the connection that they obviously have when dancing with each other?

*
Originally posted by filthycute a long time ago
I HATE being called Mel!!! :reallymad: (:blush: Does that mean we are allowed to call you Melanie?)

DavidB
8th-March-2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by DavidY
one of the great things about watching James and Filthycute at the weekend was the way they interpreted the music. Would they have been able to do that interpretation in a DWAS competition without the connection that they obviously have when dancing with each other? Why not. Musical interpretation shouldn't just be limited to your regular partner.

Gadget
8th-March-2004, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by David Franklin
The thing about the "random draw" is ~snip~ "you have to be good and lucky". The consequence is that you can't really take it too seriously.
I see the point, but I don't think that "luck" holds too much sway except if you get a partner that 'clicks'. I don't think that the repretoir of moves should vary. Neither should the musical interpritation. {bah...:na: however you spell it...}


I think double trouble is specialised enough, with most people using special signals etc. that a DWAS version would be painful to watch - nearly all hatchbacks and ladyspins.
True.


My suggestion: Organizers preannounce a track in advance Couples choreograph a routine to it, and they all are on the floor at once.
:what: I think that this would demonstrate choreography skills, and that alone. Selecting your own music gives the category much more 'depth'. I think that the organisers should possably limit the number to (eg) ten - poss submitted on video beforehand for pre-selection.


Related suggestion: Maybe something like this for the airsteps? A lot of people have commented on the lack of musicality in this section currently.
Personally, I think that arials don't deserve a seperate cattegory; if you want something like that, then do it in the showcase/spotlight - you then get a chance to choose the music and practice the moves.


Originally posted by DavidY
IMO one of the great things about watching James and Filthycute * at the weekend was the way they interpreted the music. Would they have been able to do that interpretation in a DWAS competition without the connection that they obviously have when dancing with each other?
Good point. And one that is hard to argue against: Yes, I think that if they got a partner that "clicked" with them, I think that they would have danced well. I have the utmost respect for both of them :worthy: but the competition just proves that they are very good together and have practiced to become so. It is an indication of how well they dance as a couple not just how well they dance. {although I wish I could dance half as well as either of them :wink::worthy:}

David Franklin
8th-March-2004, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
:what: I think that this would demonstrate choreography skills, and that alone. Selecting your own music gives the category much more 'depth'. Having done the spotlight thing, I actually think choosing your own music is (in some ways) a bit of a cheat. Especially in this age of easy and cheap editing facilities. Like the track but it's a bit fast for you? A tempo shift is much easier than actually improving your technique for fast music. Difficult bit you can't see how to interpret - just cut it out. Need a rest between two highlights? Move a bit from over here to over there. So in some ways having to use someone else's music is a more "honest" challenge.

If you mean less "depth" in terms of variety, sure. The main advantage is that it takes up a lot less time. 16 spotlights is a heck of a lot, while 16 couples doing this would only be 4 heats and wouldn't be a problem. And expectations / pressure would be lower, which might make it a good stepping stone for the real spotlight competition. I also think it would be really interesting to see how different people would deal with the same track, but your mileage obviously varies.


I think that the organisers should possably limit the number to (eg) ten - poss submitted on video beforehand for pre-selection.I've said something similar before and got blasted for it, but it does surprise me that people find it perfectly reasonable for people to avoid advanced because they might go out in one round, and at the same time see no problem with preventing spotlight couples from actually getting to perform at all. Imagine how you'd feel doing intermediate/advanced if the judges came up after the warmup and said "actually, we'd rather you don't waste the audience's time - please get off the floor" :sick:

I understand some people find the spotlights boring - or at least, they "only want to see the good ones". And I know that people want more freestyle time. But I think there also needs to be an avenue for people to do work on a choreographed routine with some certainty they will get to perform it. So I'm trying to suggest ways that don't take up too much time. Note also that we had over an hour of warmup tracks, which I have to say were far more boring than any spotlight... I'd much rather C2D cut those first! I also note very few 4 minute spotlights would be much the worse if cut down to 3...


Personally, I think that arials don't deserve a seperate cattegory; if you want something like that, then do it in the showcase/spotlight - you then get a chance to choose the music and practice the moves.Of course, with eight (I think) couples doing airsteps this year at Blackpool, that's a lot more showcases to have to deal with somehow or other.

Dave

ElaineB
8th-March-2004, 08:02 PM
Hiya guys!

Firstly let me say congratulations to alll those who took part in this event - there was an amazing standard of dancing! Also to the organisers - it was a magnificent event held in the most beautiful venue.

Simon and I managed to get through to the final of the intermediates and were absolutely thrilled be in there!
:) I would like to say well done and congratulations to the winners, James and Mel and to Greg and Partner (2nd) and Phil? and partner, who came third! (Sorry, not very good with names!) Needless to say, we didn't see your performance as we were a bit involved in what we were doing at the other end!

Sorry I let down those of you who were having a side bet on what would happen with my corset.......I was well and truely taped in!

As for the noise from you Scottish folk, think I will take ear plugs next year, although hearing the music may be a tad difficult. :D

Re the rules of future events, before I took up dancing, I used to do a lot of riding and competed at dressage, including dressage to music (gave up 'coz the horse got too heavy to carry! :D

In that world, they have a national database on which every 'affiliated' horse accumulates points for their placings or winning at competitions. Once they have so many points, they are then moved up a level.

If this was introduced for dancers, there could be a set number of points awarded to each dancer for a win or a place. Say as follows:

Win: 30 points
Second 20 points
Third 10 points.

The criteria to enter intermediates could be that EACH COUPLE have under a certain number of points between them - say 90 points and after that, they have to move up a level (hopefully into advanced and then open sections as previously mentioned).

If a person is a 'qualified teacher' or perhaps has taken place in the Masters, then a nominal number of points would be attached to them (that is if they haven't already received some through competition).

Perhaps if someone with points hasn't competed for a number of years, they could apply to be downgraded?

Obviously there would have to be discussions between the various Federations. There may have to be some consideration to the 'non national' competitions as well as extending to overseas.

To pay for the database, there could also be a small levy added to the entry fee for each of the competitions.

I know that this may sound complicated, but dressage has thousands of horses registered, now going back some years and everyone knows where they stand! :cool:

Greg, I hope to be up at Hipsters again in a couple of weeks - save a dance for me? :flower: And Chris A? :flower:


Elaine

Andy McGregor
9th-March-2004, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by Gus
Secondly, lets just get over this thing that Teachers are The Best. Most teachers, be they Blitz, CTA LeRoc would feel very uncomfortable in the top advanced category ... did you notice how few teachers there were competing? Did you notice the near total absence of teachers in the Advanced Final ... think that tells us all something

One thing I have noticed about teachers and competitions is that some teachers win something and then stop competing. Maybe those teachers only compete until they can say 'UK Champion' on their flyers:devil: Maybe they don't like competing.

There may have been less teachers in the final but the 2nd and 3rd placed couples were all teachers - for what it's worth, which I'm unsure of as I agree with Gus that being a teacher is irrelevant to dancing talent:confused:


Originally posted by Gus
Third ... lets stomp out the cheating b*stards who entered Intermediates when they should be in advanced. I saw at least one teacher I know (admittedly a 'cowboy') and I was told of a few other who clearly should not have been in that category. don’t know what the answer is but if someone is seen 'cheating' like that how about a 'name and shame' or a ban?

Come on Gus, Gareth was outed on here and even though he isn't paid to teach he did what he thought was the right thing. Who are those teachers? Were they in the final?


And to repeat my earlier question - why have different categories? Have we established why yet?

Pammy
9th-March-2004, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Come on Gus, Gareth was outed on here and even though he isn't paid to teach he did what he thought was the right thing. Who are those teachers? Were they in the final?

Who mentioned Gareth? :what:

Incidentally though, I take my hat of to Gareth. He did really well up there and I noticed they had much improved their "In The Army Now" routine :cheers: Well done mate and thanks for the freestyle :hug:

Pammy
9th-March-2004, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by ElaineB
If this was introduced for dancers, there could be a set number of points awarded to each dancer for a win or a place. Say as follows:

Win: 30 points
Second 20 points
Third 10 points.

The criteria to enter intermediates could be that EACH COUPLE have under a certain number of points between them - say 90 points and after that, they have to move up a level (hopefully into advanced and then open sections as previously mentioned).

Excellent idea - sounds like that would work a treat! :nice:

Dreadful Scathe
9th-March-2004, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Pammy
and I noticed they had much improved their "In The Army Now" routine :cheers:

I really hate that song :(

Pammy
9th-March-2004, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I really hate that song :(

Is that the 17.5% of you or the other bit?

Px

TheTramp
9th-March-2004, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by Pammy
Excellent idea - sounds like that would work a treat! :nice: I can foresee a of problems with this....

Firstly, it assumes that you're going to compete at a number of competitions (in order to accumulate points). You could just turn up once a year, always compete (and win) the intermediates, and under this system, that would be allowed.

Secondly, it assumes that all competitions are of equal standing. Which patently isn't the case. I'd say that there's 2 competitions that are truly national. One that is regional, but in the region with a lot of the 'top' dancers, and then 2 that are pretty much regional (although, with some people who are prepared to travel going there). I suppose that it would be possible to allocate a higher number of points in the same category for the national competitions though....

Trampy

Gus
9th-March-2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor

Come on Gus, Gareth was outed on here and even though he isn't paid to teach he did what he thought was the right thing. Who are those teachers? Were they in the final?



The teacher that I spotted is an independent teaching in the North East. One of the "lets set-up a venue and teach" brigade. I'm not saying his is advanced standard (he didn’t make the final) ... but under the rules of the contest he IS a teacher and so should have been in the Advanced.

ALSO (while I'm having a rant) I'm sure that one of the Intermediate competitors has been placed before at C2D and has been placed in competitions in the South west ... is that fair?

ChrisA
9th-March-2004, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Gus
ALSO (while I'm having a rant) I'm sure that one of the Intermediate competitors has been placed before at C2D and has been placed in competitions in the South west ... is that fair?
The C2D 2003 results are here (http://www.chancetwodance.co.uk/6989.html).

The 2002 results are here (http://www.chancetwodance.co.uk/6721.html)

I think it's time to draw a veil over all this discussion.

Chris

Jayne
9th-March-2004, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
I think it's time to draw a veil over all this discussion.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

I still have strong opinions on this but I think the horse is well and truly flogged by now!

But....

..what about the cheating b*stards (to use Gus's phrase) who were doing airsteps in the intermediates and STILL managed to get through rounds???

J :devil:

Bill
9th-March-2004, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Jayne
:clap: :clap: :clap:

..what about the cheating b*stards (to use Gus's phrase) who were doing airsteps in the intermediates and STILL managed to get through rounds???

J :devil:

I wondered about this but the rules do allow some airsteps as long as the women has one leg below the man's waist ( I think) so most of the moves were perfectly legitimate. :sick: :rolleyes:

Jayne
9th-March-2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Bill
I wondered about this but the rules do allow some airsteps as long as the women has one leg below the man's waist ( I think) so most of the moves were perfectly legitimate. :sick: :rolleyes:
This was my understanding too, but there were some moves going on where this wasn't adhered to. For example, there was one couple who had both of the girl's feet on the guy's thighs for one move - and they still progressed to the next round!! I also saw quite a few "borderline" moves.....

J :nice:

Dreadful Scathe
9th-March-2004, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Jayne

..what about the cheating b*stards (to use Gus's phrase) who were doing airsteps in the intermediates and STILL managed to get through rounds???


were airsteps not allowed for the first time as long as feet stayed below waist level ? so standing on someones thigh would be fine?

TheTramp
9th-March-2004, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Jayne
This was my understanding too, but there were some moves going on where this wasn't adhered to. For example, there was one couple who had both of the girl's feet on the guy's thighs for one move - and they still progressed to the next round!! I also saw quite a few "borderline" moves..... Ummm. My thighs are below my waist Jayne. Where are yours???

Doesn't sound like they broke any rules to me.... The rule was that one foot (not leg) must always be below the gentlemans waist.

Trampy

Jayne
9th-March-2004, 01:21 PM
Many apologies - I thought the rule was his knee.

I completely retract what I wrote.

Sorry.

J :blush: :flower:

Pammy
9th-March-2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Ummm. My thighs are below my waist Jayne.

mine aren't :tears: :wink:

spindr
9th-March-2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Pammy
mine aren't :tears: :wink:

Ummm, my waist's below my thighs -- is that the same :)

SpinDr.

TonyC2D
9th-March-2004, 03:38 PM
It is so difficult to fit all the catagories in at the moment, we had decided this year to adhere to a strict limit of numbers, but due the unforseen circumstances we felt we should be more flexible on entrants who may have sent applications to the PO box. All ideas for catagories are appriciated and we really do listen, if you would like to fill in a coment sheet and send it to us please do so. As for the music Sarah, Nigel (our DJ) and myself spend a full weekend after closing date to get it together and record it. This in itself is a major task, we do listen to comments about the music too, e.g last year we had so many complaints that the senior choice was too old (mowtown) this was chosen for BPM and feel (simlar to intermediate round) not because it was old, so far this year we have received very few comments on music (oh no there's me opening a can of worms) however if anybody would like to submit any thoughts or ideas on themes please do so, again if we recieve them in writting we can file them until the appropiate time next year.
Once again I can't thank people enough for all the support and kind comments, I do feel slightly guilty for 2 reasons:-
1 I seem to be getting a lot of praise, but I was only at the pointy end, there were so many people doing so much behind me, all I had to do was open my mouth
2 I can't play the organ

Bill
9th-March-2004, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by TonyC2D
2 I can't play the organ

What..................... but it seemed so real :na: :whistle:

TonyC2D
9th-March-2004, 03:49 PM
Bill it was such a fantastic experience I may well take it up, I wanted to be able to watch it though. My daughter said a really touching thing on the way home "I was so proud I wanted to tell everyone that was my Daddy, but they all knew" worth its weight

Sheepman
9th-March-2004, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by ElaineB
Greg, I hope to be up at Hipsters again in a couple of weeks - save a dance for me? :flower: And Chris A? :flower: I won't be there next week :tears: 'cos we're skiing :nice: but all my dancing this month will be easy West Coast Swing, even at Hipsters - got to try and cure these injuries before Rock Bottoms.

Andy, why do we need categories? To provide an incentive for people with different styles/abilities to give it a go. Most of us don't want the stresses of competing with the expectation that we'll go out in the first round, even though the majority of people do have to fall at this hurdle.

I've heard a suggestion that we should have a category with no dips/tricks/lifts, I would certainly go for that, but I think the definitions would get troublesome.

Greg

Pammy
9th-March-2004, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
'cos we're skiing

After my little text last night, I knew that.... :whistle: :wink:

Gareth
9th-March-2004, 04:18 PM
I really hate that song

Dreadful Scathe,
I chose the music to suit the theme, and as we have already established on the Forum, musical taste is a personal choice :yum:




I take my hat of to Gareth. He did really well up there

Thanks Pammy,
You`ll always be on my dance card :flower:

Bill
9th-March-2004, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by TonyC2D
Bill it was such a fantastic experience I may well take it up, I wanted to be able to watch it though. My daughter said a really touching thing on the way home "I was so proud I wanted to tell everyone that was my Daddy, but they all knew" worth its weight

Out of the mouths of babes etc............ :D :flower:

and on a completeley different note Tony...................... can you clarify the position regarding recording on the day. I heard someone say that it was OK to film a couple if you had their permission but a friend who tried to film some of us Scots was told to stop.

I think last year a few folk raised this as a recording of performances from Blackpool could be really useful for those then competing at London. Can a friend film a couple in their round or is all filming banned ???

TonyC2D
9th-March-2004, 05:10 PM
I'm sorry Bill, but this is out of our hands and is a stipulation by the Film crew, we can't allow any filming, I sure you understand, and having announced it several times apparently people were still being caught (my brother was very keen on this one).

Mary
9th-March-2004, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Bill
Out of the mouths of babes etc............ :D :flower:

and on a completeley different note Tony...................... can you clarify the position regarding recording on the day. I heard someone say that it was OK to film a couple if you had their permission but a friend who tried to film some of us Scots was told to stop.

I think last year a few folk raised this as a recording of performances from Blackpool could be really useful for those then competing at London. Can a friend film a couple in their round or is all filming banned ???

I spotted a sign on the door as I was coming in about not filming without a couples' permission. I asked my brother-in-law to video us, but only us and none of the proceedings or other dancers in general. He faithfully abided by these instructions, so I now have a record of my performances which I can pull apart. C2D (or the video company) will not have lost out as I am ordering the DVD as well, so I can see how other people performed AND I have to have a record of Emma's showcase - that bit will get worn out! and to see the showcases and team events I missed for one reason or another.

I hope no one has a problem with this approach.

M

Leo
9th-March-2004, 07:52 PM
Just read David Franklins comments on the airsteps.

Unfortunatly this is a free style competition and there have only ever been two couples that I know of that could pull this off in real honest free style.

The first, Andy and Rena; who won it the first two years.

The second, Andy and Kim; who won it the following three.

They all dance free style and therefore use the music, the rest, well, don't; and thus don't even come close.

If you were watching last years comp Andy and Kims use of the music was excellent. This year not so good but who could really put any style into the pants track c2d played this year.

Give something to get their teeth into like those lucky advancies get then we may see some proper musicallity.

DavidB
9th-March-2004, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by Leo
They all dance free style and therefore use the music, the rest, well, don't; and thus don't even come close. If you were watching last years comp Andy and Kims use of the music was excellent. Whether or not you agree with this statement, it does raise an interesting question - exactly what are you judging in an airsteps competition.
- Are you purely judging the airsteps themselves - irrespective of the music?
- Are you judging fitting the airsteps to the music?
- Or are you judging a dance competition that allows aerials?

(It is difficult enough for the judges - they also have to try to mark each aerial, when everyone is doing them at the same time.
- How do you reward difficulty of each move?
- How do you reward the number of aerials.
- How do you reward the execution of each aerial.)

In the past it wouldn't have made any difference to the result. But this year a different interpretation by the judges could have swapped the first two places. Had Andy & Kim danced in time to the music, they would have been easy winners. Unfortunately they were off time for about 50% of their dancing.


This year not so good but who could really put any style into the pants track c2d played this year.I've forgotten - what track was played?

David

Tiggerbabe
9th-March-2004, 09:05 PM
Next year, could we maybe, please, :flower: have the aerials a little earlier in the proceedings - you know, not almost last - after all the other heats, finals, cabarets, freestyles :flower:
Just a thought :innocent: :blush:

And David, I can't remember the track we got in our heat but the warm up was "Totally Addicted To Bass"

Stuart M
10th-March-2004, 12:41 AM
On the perennial debate about the proliferation of categories, I had a thought a while back - can't remember whether I posted it on the Forum - about awarding category prizes within the same competition.

For instance, Best Seniors/Juniors prizes can easily be awarded within the Intermediate competition. Logistically it makes sense, in cutting down on separate competitions, how would people feel it would work?

Andy McGregor
10th-March-2004, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
But this year a different interpretation by the judges could have swapped the first two places. Had Andy & Kim danced in time to the music, they would have been easy winners. Unfortunately they were off time for about 50% of their dancing.


Have I got my couples mixed up:confused: I thought the winning couple were off-time for almost 100% of their dancing. They seemed to land on the beat then sort of step back onto the off beat, do all of their dancing on the off beat then do and air step and repeat the whole off beat thing again.

I asked one of the judges (no names) what was going on and was told that they decided it was an air-steps competition and the marking was slanted towards that rather than dancing. But the judges were all aware of that off-beat thing going on.

One suggestion, not mine, was that the winners were doing that so they look on the beat in the video...

N.B. For those of you that don't know, last years video was made so badly that the beat and the dancing rarely matched even though they did in the live performance.

DavidB
10th-March-2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Have I got my couples mixed up:confused No - It was my post that was a bit confusing. Andy and Kim did win the airsteps. They had the best executed aerials, but did dance off time.

Dancing on-time or off-time is very important. The timing of the movement is probably the only thing that you can use to define Modern Jive. If you get the timing wrong, then you aren't doing Modern Jive. If you dance off-time in a normal freestyle competition, the judges will mark you last without even a second thought. But a competition where you are not purely judging the dancing does complicate things.

My own view is based on what happens in European Rock'n'Roll, and US Theatre Arts competitions (the only other dance competitions that feature aerials, rather than just allowing them.)
- You should aim to do 8 aerials in a song
- There should be variety in the aerials
- For an aerial to be marked, you have to dance into and out of it, and the aerial can't disrupt the flow of the dance.
- An aerial has to be executed safely before it can be awarded any marks.
- The dancing is still marked, and can account for up to 50% of the total marks.

I don't think it is fair to expect the judges to make up their own guidelines after the competition. There should be consistency from one competition to the next.

Another point. If there is an Open division next year, and if it follows the format of the other Open divisions (ie aerials are allowed), then there has to be a clear distinction between the two divisions.

David

Leo
10th-March-2004, 02:34 PM
I agree with DavidB.

If Andy and Kim were to finally dance in time to the music they could really clean up their act. But, I have seen them dance all over and it does seem to be their specailty to dance on the off beat rather than on the beat.

Either bad teaching or a hearing problem I think!

:devil:

I do however think they were the only couple to keep the flow during their aerials.

Oppinions.....:worthy:

Lory
10th-March-2004, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by DavidB

Dancing on-time or off-time is very important. The timing of the movement is probably the only thing that you can use to define Modern Jive. If you get the timing wrong, then you aren't doing Modern Jive. If you dance off-time in a normal freestyle competition, the judges will mark you last without even a second thought. When I was a kid, I loved to watch gymnastics, the 'floor' especially but even then it used to frustrate the life out of me, when they had a very dramatic piece of music for their routines but NEVER kept in time with it, even at that age I used to wonder what the hell the music had in relation to the performance, if anything it was quite distracting! But then maybe I was watching from a 'dancing' point of view?
So, for me, I think it would be even more distracting watching dancing off the beat! Whatever the catagory:sick:

Bill
10th-March-2004, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
If you dance off-time in a normal freestyle competition, the judges will mark you last without even a second thought.
David

I would hope this happens but over the few years I've seen MJ comps I've seen some very obvious examples od couples dancing off the beat - sometimes only for a short while - usually I think because they are doing choerographed moves which obviously don't fit the music but they have progressed ..........sometimes to a final !

Obviously different going off beat but 'catching up' than doing a whole track off beat.

DavidB
10th-March-2004, 04:52 PM
I should have said 'persistently off time'.

Lots of times you see couples coming out of a move on the wrong beat. While this is not good, as long as they realise and get back on beat quickly I won't mind too much. It might just cost them a place or two, especially in a close competition. Similarly if it is a 'difficult' bit of music I will be more flexible.

I'll also be more flexible for Intermediates and DWAS than say Advanced, and give couples a bit longer to get back on beat.

But if a couple keep going off time, or don't make any attempt to get back on time, then they don't get any marks.

David

Leo
11th-March-2004, 02:46 PM
Point very well made David

Having spoken to many onlookers at b'pool the general concensus is that the best couple won and I personally found them the most entertaining to watch.

On another note I would be honered by your elustrious hints and tips on keeping to the beat. After demoing for many years I still get it completely wrong given the wrong music and most specifically to music that I don't like, but the lady still wants to dance to it and who am I to say no or worse to stuff it up for both of us?!?.....

Leo
11th-March-2004, 02:49 PM
Also....

What have Clayton and Genien got that the gudges like so much at every competition. I personally think that, as good as they are; there have been better couples in every category of evry competition I have seen them in in the last two years.

Is this biased or would I just be a terrible judge?

Maybe they should enter the airsteps....

Gareth
11th-March-2004, 07:12 PM
Is this biased or would I just be a terrible judge?

C & J, ooze style and control.Yet they are very understated in their moves. They look good and are able to adapt to any type of music being played. Their repertoire of moves is outstanding. This is why they are the reigning champions :worthy:

To beat them in a competition you can`t be equal, you need to be better. If you can do that then you are in with a chance :)

Lory
11th-March-2004, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Gareth

To beat them in a competition you can`t be equal, you need to be better. If you can do that then you are in with a chance :) NO WAY! :whistle: :rofl:

TheTramp
11th-March-2004, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Gareth
To beat them in a competition you can`t be equal, you need to be better. If you can do that then you are in with a chance :) Yeah. Cos if you're equal, then it's a draw!!

Am I missing something here?? :confused:

Trampy