Crew Loyalty

[Gus]

Heard another rumour about the dark side of dance and dance organisations ... bit depressing. Not sure if its true ... and don't really care ... but got me thinking. The essence of the story was a franchisee taking great lengths to control where his/her crew were dancing and having spies out to ensure that edicts were complied with.

Just need a reality check .... do people think this is fair? If you've invetsed your time and effort into training crew do they owe you a debt of service and not support potentialy competing venues? :confused:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gus
Heard another rumour about the dark side of dance and dance organisations ... bit depressing. Not sure if its true ... and don't really care ... but got me thinking. The essence of the story was a franchisee taking great lengths to control where his/her crew were dancing and having spies out to ensure that edicts were complied with.

Just need a reality check .... do people think this is fair? If you've invetsed your time and effort into training crew do they owe you a debt of service and not support potentialy competing venues? :confused:

Come on Gus. We don't have your opinion yet. How can I disagree with you:devil:

I think crew should be able to dance where they like. Crew members do a great job and they do it for free. On the other hand, I think it would be disloyal for a crew member to also crew elsewhere.

To use a restaurant analogy. You wouldn't expect your waiters to only dine out in your restaurant would you?

Also, these crew members dancing elsewhere could be a useful advertisement for their own venue and provide a useful source of market intelligence. IMHO the only people that should worry about crew going to other venues are the owners of those other venues.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Gus
do they owe you a debt of service and not support potentialy competing venues? :confused:


They OWE you???????? Surely you would be working to inspire loyalty rather than demanding it???
As long as they continue to support your venue, what's the problem with them enjoying a night of dancing elsewhere?
(How do you define "competing venue" - same night or same area?)

[TheTramp]

From my experience, crew (assuming that you mean taxi dancers (or equivalent) and venue managers) get little or no specific dance training, and hence don't really owe anything due to that, to the franchisee.

However, I think that most, if not all, in my experience are usually fairly loyal.

That doesn't mean though that they shouldn't go to 'competing' venues. They don't usually get paid in cash for being taxi-dancers (though, free or reduced admission can be quite a bonus, depending on how often you get to go dancing), and hence should have the right to go dance wherever they want.

Even if there was much more training, then I don't really see how you could have the right to stop them going anywhere they wanted. McDonalds employee's aren't prohibited from eating in Burger King are they?

I think that again, it all boils down to the idea that if your venues are the best, then people wouldn't want to go anywhere else. So worry more about that, than about putting un-enforceable restrictions on people.

Thankfully, no-one that I've ever worked for, either as a taxi-dancer, teacher or DJ has ever tried that. One was close, when I taught for him as an occasional teacher, but I told him in no uncertain terms that it wouldn't work anyhow.

Trampy

[Gadget]

It's the same argument about taking on an apprentice at work: you train them, get them to a standard you like, then a competitor steals them away.
If the company doing the training is offering the trainee a valued position at the end of it, then there is no reason that they would be lured to another company.

Putting restrictions on "personal" activites outside of the time that they are focused with your buisness is a sure way to breed negativity in the trainees against the training company. I would think that you would be looking for your trainees to go forth and experiance everyone else's venues: This would allow them to "spread the word" about your venue. It would help them experiance what was bad about other venues in comparison to yours. It would allow you to addapt what was good about other venues into your own model.

The "Team" should want to work for you - otherwise you're waisting your time training them in the first place.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Come on Gus. We don't have your opinion yet. How can I disagree with you:devil:


My personal view (definitely not ODA) is that this particular franchisee needs their big fat retentive a** kicked so hard they stop interfeering with the life of normal people. Is that clear enough?:waycool:

I know some of the facts behind all this and have run into this particular so and so before. Believe me, I have no respect left for such dinosaurs.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by TheTramp
From my experience, crew (assuming that you mean taxi dancers (or equivalent) and venue managers) get little or no specific dance training It varies. About a month ago Ceroc Central had its teachers, taxi dancers and various other crew in for a days training ahead of the Wicksteed park tea dance. (Very nice venue and always a good ocassion) They were taken through all the new intermediate moves and variations in beginner moves. This is training taxi dancers beyond their role.

Any expectation of "loyal" behaviour from everbody has long been overtaken by gut-wrenching experience, but there are enough decent people in the world to make it worthwhile.

[Chicky]

I happen to be an organiser and actively encourage our crew to dance elsewhere, gain more experience with other dancers, enjoy other venues, but I don't ask them to 'spy' for me. Not my style :grin:

There is however, a competitor who has banned all their crew from attending our venues. If they are 'caught' they are fired from their position, and 'banned'. Nobody likes to be restricted or told what to do.

I have seen and spoken to many of their crew who 'hate the position they've been placed in' and as such have contempt for those inflicting this rule on them. Unfortunately it does come down to money, especially if their social life is 3 times a week dancing, that's a lot of money to pay out.

This in my opinion, does not create good loyalty, but creates "loathing" (not my words), and 'fear' of being caught. BTW.......spies are regularly sent to our venues to check out whether any of the taxis are attending our venues.

It just so happens that our crew do not dance anywhere else on a regular basis as they complain that it's just not the same atmosphere and prefer to dance with us.

We mustn't forget that dancers (crew or not) go dancing to have a good time and escape their lives for a few hours, they don't like being caught up in 'wars'. :wink:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
On the other hand, I think it would be disloyal for a crew member to also crew elsewhere.

Why on earth would this be the case if there's no erosion of the "service" provided to the original organisation?

Chris

[Steven]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I think it would be disloyal for a crew member

I don't agree with this as I crew at 2 different venues although they are both ceroc but different franchises.

Therefore it means I am taxi-ing every week. I don't think this means I am being disloyal but more that I am committed to helping beginners.

Cheers
Steven

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gus
Just need a reality check .... do people think this is fair? If you've invetsed your time and effort into training crew do they owe you a debt of service and not support potentialy competing venues? :confused:

Assuming you've invested a great deal of time and effort Gus. Don't know if any of the taxi dancers have much time spent on them. Franck and Lorna have had a couple of taxi training sessions but generally it's really just identifying potential taxi dancers and handing them a t-shirt.

No disrespect to Franck or Lorna/Lisa etc..... just a reflection of what happens. However, even if we had regular sesisons and training I would still expect to dance at any venue I wanted to. I have great fun at Lindsay's event. Route 66, Blitz and the (few) weekenders I manage to go to. If I was told not to then I'd not be taxi-ing.

But noting Chicky's point - if I danced for the same franchise holder and danced 3 times a week it would cost me more so maybe that would make me think twice. And if the venue(s) and music were good I might not have to go anywhere else. :D

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Gadget
It's the same argument about taking on an apprentice at work: you train them, get them to a standard you like, then a competitor steals them away.
If the company doing the training is offering the trainee a valued position at the end of it, then there is no reason that they would be lured to another company. The problem with tha is that in a competitive environment it is better to save your training money and use it to offer enhanced wages to the people others have trained.

Whatever money you offer to your trained staff becomes the minimum wage for that job, and the competitor just adds the saved training money to it. It is another area where competition does not necessarily raise standards. Everybody might settle for less trained staff instead.

It can be possible that peple are willing to pay more for top quality teaching, but most novice MJ'er will not know the difference or be prepared to pay more.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
The problem with tha is that in a competitive environment it is better to save your training money and use it to offer enhanced wages to the people others have trained.


If this happens then, in a free market that means that salaries for more experienced people goes up and trainees goes down.

Until it gets to a point where it is equally sensible to hire new people as experienced people. Thats how it works in every industry. Basic economic theory I think.

[DavidY]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
About a month ago Ceroc Central had its teachers, taxi dancers and various other crew in for a days training ahead of the Wicksteed park tea dance. (Very nice venue and always a good ocassion) They were taken through all the new intermediate moves and variations in beginner moves. This is training taxi dancers beyond their role.
Originally posted by ChrisA in another thread
I teach beginners classes all the time as a taxi dancer, in return for which I get free entry into various venues and free drinks when I'm on duty. I've seen the above comments today about what people get in return for taxiing.

This set me thinking - in Ceroc Central we had the day bigdjiver mentions (which was very good), but we don't get general free entry to venues, just free admission on the night itself when you're taxiing, and a single admit one for use on a future night. No free drinks either. :(

What happens in other Ceroc franchises/ other MJ organisations?

[DavidY]

Originally posted by Steven
I don't agree with this as I crew at 2 different venues although they are both ceroc but different franchises.

Therefore it means I am taxi-ing every week. I don't think this means I am being disloyal but more that I am committed to helping beginners.I agree. From the point of view of Mike Ellard (?sp?) , you're crewing for him every week, helping beginners. I would guess he would see this as a good thing, and ultimately he is in charge...

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
If this happens then, in a free market that means that salaries for more experienced people goes up and trainees goes down.

Until it gets to a point where it is equally sensible to hire new people as experienced people. Thats how it works in every industry. Basic economic theory I think. I may be missing the point, but it seems to me that you are agreeing with me that it could end up with most having comparitively "new people" as teachers.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by DavidY
I've seen the above comments today about what people get in return for taxiing.

This set me thinking - in Ceroc Central we had the day bigdjiver mentions (which was very good), but we don't get general free entry to venues, just free admission on the night itself when you're taxiing, and a single admit one for use on a future night. No free drinks either. :(

What happens in other Ceroc franchises/ other MJ organisations? A lot of people would have paid £35 for a less intensive version of that training day. There used to be the occasional taxi dancer night-out at a restuarant as well. I think the policy is to seek taxi-dancers who do it for love, rather than profit. There is generally a queue of wannabe taxi's, and I know taxi's who give away their admit ones. In general, at the moment, it is a for love, not money, sort of business.

[Gus]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
.......I think the policy is to seek taxi-dancers who do it for love, rather than profit.

The crux of the business model for MJ is to 'exploit' taxi dancers (in a nice way). I'm now speaking about GOOD taxi dancers, not just some dancer who's been thrown into a shirt because the club has no-one else. The best deal I've seen is Blitz where all crew are allowed free passage into ALL clubs and freestyles. However, the training is poor to non-existent .... no differnet to most Ceroc franchisees in that sense?

As a Ceroc franchisee I had a very loyal group of crew who stayed with me for over 3 years and became good friends. we got some reciprocal deals with local Cerlc franchisees bit their only real benefit was cut-price places on workshops and a coashing sessions twice a year. As has been said, they did it for the love of the dance, something for which I and a majority of the dancers in this area should be gratefull for.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Gus
The crux of the business model for MJ is to 'exploit' taxi dancers (in a nice way). I do not think so. The last thing Ceroc wants is taxi dancers with the attitude "God, I've got to dance with him/her, but at least I'll get (2?,3?,4?,5?,6?) free nights dancing with ...".
I do not taxi. I dance with beginners for the joy of seeing people acquire a skill that many of them don't think they can, often seeing them blossom in social confidence, seeing them smile, acquire new friends, and for the odd moment of worship as a dance god, even if it only lasts until they meet real dancers.

There are people who enjoy meeting people and helping people, and being part of an organisation. There is no more exploitation involved than there is in demanding admission money to feed our addiction as dancers.

:devil: Trying to seed dissent in the Ceroc ranks again Gus? :devil:

[Gus]

Originally posted by bigdjiver

:devil: Trying to seed dissent in the Ceroc ranks again Gus? :devil:
Nope ... just pure observation of being part of the Ceroc Franchisee network for a number of years and knowing a lot of taxi dancers and franchisees personaly, both within Blitz, Ceroc and independants.:grin: Whats your asssessment based on:confused:

[Jon]

I taxi for 2 ceroc franchises and at both there hasn't been any formal training for taxi dancers. There's been the occasional sit down and chat about new stuff etc but thats all. And to be honest I dont think the majority of taxi dancers require any training.

For me its getting to know the venue mangers, other crew and helping to build a friendly venue that makes it worth while.

[Jon]

Originally posted by Chicky
There is however, a competitor who has banned all their crew from attending our venues. If they are 'caught' they are fired from their position, and 'banned'. Nobody likes to be restricted or told what to do.

Haven't heard about this yet, but for me I do what I want when I want. I go to most venues in the south east at some time and I encourage people I meet to goto other venues not just the ones I taxi at and certainly not just the ones in the same franchise.

[DavidY]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
A lot of people would have paid £35 for a less intensive version of that training day. ~Snip~ In general, at the moment, it is a for love, not money, sort of business. Good points - and I don't really think there's much wrong with the way it is. However I was interested to know what goes on elsewhere.

[bigdjiver]

I asked if Gus was trying to spread dissent in the Ceroc ranks again.
Originally posted by Gus
Nope ... just pure observation of being part of the Ceroc Franchisee network for a number of years and knowing a lot of taxi dancers and franchisees personaly, both within Blitz, Ceroc and independants.:grin: Whats your asssessment based on:confused: Your use of the word "exploit" and broadcasting the free admission at Blitz. The use of again spills over from another thread when you asked why the CTA did not offer teacher training to anyone willing to pay for it. With all that experience you should know that Ceroc teacher training is very much "on the job", with the sessions at HQ only a part of it. I think you are a mischief maker, trying to conceal the fact with humour and smiles. I think that you owe a lot to Ceroc.

I believe that you now work for Blitz, and claim to be devils advocate, so logically, Blitz would be ... Hmm, :devil: :grin:

Ceroc franchises vary. Ceroc Central is very sucessful for good reasons, and their ethos is one of them. Their taxi dancers want to taxi, they are not in it for profit, and I think that comes across to the beginners. Other franchises I do not know enough about.

[Gus]

ODA - Ahhh ... another live one has bitten the hook ... once more into battle:wink:


Originally posted by bigdjiver
I asked if Gus was trying to spread dissent in the Ceroc ranks again. Your use of the word "exploit" and broadcasting the free admission at Blitz.


And .... I also made a comment that I regarded Blitz crew training as wholly inadaquate (PLEASE learn to read posts ...). I thought I'd made the point that there is a fair amount of variation across ALL dance organisations. I dont know anyone who does it perfectly. I've heard some very impressive things about the Mo'Jive organisation but that was from someone with a natural bias .... I'd love to hear from anyone on the Forum who has a view because on the limited info I've heard, they seem to do a lot of things very professionaly.

Can I jut state categorically ... FOR THE LAST TIME ... I'm not anti-Ceroc. I will (and do) raise any issue I have with ANY dance orgnanisation. as Ceroc has a high profile the issues are staistically more likely to be Ceroc concerned ... but I only refer to facts .... not just malicious rumour. You seem to have an issue with it ... "just build a bridge and get over it" :grin:



The use of again spills over from another thread when you asked why the CTA did not offer teacher training to anyone willing to pay for it. With all that experience you should know that Ceroc teacher training is very much "on the job", with the sessions at HQ only a part of it. I think you are a mischief maker, trying to conceal the fact with humour and smiles.

If you're commenting that the training is on the job ... HOW?? Once I was trained, and this goes for all the teachers I now in my area ... the teachers were left to it. If thats different in other areas fine ... but dont make sweeping statements based on your experience of just one area. There are four big franchisees (I think) .. Scotland, Central, Metro and Virginia's ... they have resousces other franchisees can only dream about.



I think that you owe a lot to Ceroc.


UGGHHHH??? Spoken like a true believer. I spent over #10k on setting up three clubs ... sweated tears supporting the clubs with no teacher support from Ceroc, ended up nearly destroying my own business and suffering from nervous exhaustion .... sold the club for half what it was worth and then got BANNED from it ... still get hassled by HQ ..... and I would then owe Ceroc what??? (Answers on the back of a postcard please)



I believe that you now work for Blitz, and claim to be devils advocate, so logically, Blitz would be ... Hmm, :devil: :grin:


FACT: I DONT work for Blitz! I work for Gorgeous Gus Dance and through them I do contract teaching for whoever pays me (bit of a Mercenary:grin:) Pay the money and I'll teach for anyone .... I've also taugt for Ceroc clubs in the past but dont tell Ceroc HQ 'cause they get a bit uptight about bthings like that :devil:

If you are calling my inpartiality into question ... then pal I think you are the last person on the planet to make such a comment. Balance of opinion is that you are a Ceroc evangalist ... no problem with that but I'm not keen on having the "Ceroc is Good, All else are Bad" mantra shoved down my throat by someone who doesnt know whats really going on. At least when Will has a go at me he uses something called facts ... try them ... they can come in usefull.



Ceroc franchises vary. Ceroc Central is very sucessful for good reasons, and their ethos is one of them. Their taxi dancers want to taxi, they are not in it for profit, and I think that comes across to the beginners. Other franchises I do not know enough about.

As stated above, Ceroc Central is one of the most proffessional oragnisations I've come across. I think that many other dance organisation could learn from them. Phil Roberts is proof that a profesional manager can apply business techniques succefully. I think he throughougly deserves the succes he has.

The reason I started this thread was not a CEROC v OTHERS attack ... it was to open a debate about the responsibilitie of/to crew. This has highlighted Chicklets situation where someone allegedly is being a complete ass. Is that so bad to raise as an issue:confused:

Anyway ... sorry for the rant ... do I get the Andy McG award for bit between teeth:sick:

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by Gus

This has highlighted Chicklet's situation
Chicklet doesn't have a "situation" Gus - I think you'll find it was Chicky who posted. :wink:

[bigdjiver]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gus
If you're commenting that the training is on the job ... HOW??
In Ceroc Central trainee teachers serve their time as demos, and have coaching sessions from experienced teachers. They move up to doing the beginners class and getting feedback from experienced teachers.
Once I was trained, and this goes for all the teachers I now in my area ... the teachers were left to it. If thats different in other areas fine ... but dont make sweeping statements based on your experience of just one area.
Twice a year Michaela advertises the Hammersmith freestyle, telling us that there is a Ceroc teacher update that Saturday, and that she, and many other Ceroc teachers are likely to be at the freestyle in the evening. There is at least that level of ongoing training. I have often seen teachers attending venues as dancers and talking and practising together, so they are not totally isolated.

I am aware that personel, venues and franchises vary. I do regularly specify that my main experience is of Ceroc Central. I danced a lot in Ceroc Kent, which seemed to be extremely well run. and I have danced in a wide range of MJ formats, and enjoyed every evening.

UGGHHHH??? Spoken like a true believer. I spent over #10k on setting up three clubs ... sweated tears supporting the clubs with no teacher support from Ceroc, ended up nearly destroying my own business and suffering from nervous exhaustion .... sold the club for half what it was worth and then got BANNED from it ... still get hassled by HQ ..... and I would then owe Ceroc what??? (Answers on the back of a postcard please) Apart from remarking that what it is worth is what you can sell it for, I was not aware of those circumstances, and sorry to hear that you have had such a hard time. I retract my remark, and apologise for it.

FACT: I DONT work for Blitz! I work for Gorgeous Gus Dance and through them I do contract teaching hair splitting?

If you are calling my inpartiality into question ... then pal I think you are the last person on the planet to make such a comment. Balance of opinion is that you are a Ceroc evangalist ... no problem with that but I'm not keen on having the "Ceroc is Good, All else are Bad" mantra shoved down my throat
I believe MJ is good.
I HAVE NEVER SAID ALL ELSE IS BAD.
I know nothing about Blitz, 0r Mo'Jive, or most others. If they are doing something better then I am keen to learn about it, and will advocate it for all MJ organisations. I would like to learn more of the Blitz taxi dncer reward scheme. I doubt that it is taxi once and get free admission to all events forever, and I am not implying that you said that, but I would like to see the small print. If the Blitz scheme is as generous as suggested then I will owe you an apology on that too.

by someone who doesnt know whats really going on. At least when Will has a go at me he uses something called facts ... try them ... they can come in usefull.
I can only comment on what I know, and try to learn more, and this forum serves both purposes.

As stated above, Ceroc Central is one of the most proffessional oragnisations I've come across. I think that many other dance organisation could learn from them. Phil Roberts is proof that a profesional manager can apply business techniques succefully. I think he throughougly deserves the succes he has.

The reason I started this thread was not a CEROC v OTHERS attack ... it was to open a debate about the responsibilitie of/to crew. This has highlighted Chicklets situation where someone allegedly is being a complete ass. Is that so bad to raise as an issue:confused:
I also hold the view that asses are for kicking, and support you in that. As far as I am concerned staff can spend their free time and wages as they like. If they are supporting others then I, if I were a manager, I would wonder where I was falling short, and try to find out why.

It is not just staff that go through this. I have had a venue manager right in my face because I went past his to go to a rival organisation.

Anyway ... sorry for the rant ... do I get the Andy McG award for bit between teeth:sick:
Yup, and it is a bit of me. Once again, apologies for the "you owe" comment.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gus
do I get the Andy McG award for bit between teeth:sick:

Only if I can have the ODA award for 'worm dangling':wink:

[Gus]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
[QUOTE]Twice a year Michaela advertises the Hammersmith freestyle, telling us that there is a Ceroc teacher update that Saturday...... There is at least that level of ongoing training.


Agreed. The annual update is a usefull focus for learning new moves ... but (unless it has changed in the last two years) thats all it is. It doesn't avtualy teach you to teach any better. I know things have improved but I used to learn more moves by doing the dance weekenders and courses by N&N and Viktor than I ever did at the update. However, in the terms of your original statement, its a training opportunity I'd forgotten about (old age and all that):grin:




........I know nothing about Blitz, 0r Mo'Jive, or most others.... I doubt that it is taxi once and get free admission to all events forever, and I am not implying that you said that, but I would like to see the small print. If the Blitz scheme is as generous as suggested then I will owe you an apology on that too.


I'm not sure that 'generous' is the phrase I'd use, more 'practical'. It helps to ensure that nyour better dancers dance around a bit more. Some crew only work one week in three, mt Ceroc crew had to do every other week. I think its a pretty good incentive ... but thats only part of the package so I think you have to look at it all as a whole. To clarify my earliers statements ... I'm not saying the Blitz package is the best ... just stating what it is.



Once again, apologies for the "you owe" comment.

Very decent of you old chap. No need to do so ... everyone has a point of view and given my earlier posts I can probably understand how you came to that conclusion ... though its very much appreciated. I think it is equallt incumbent in me to apologise for the tone of my responbse .... nothing personal ... just letting off steam.:blush:

At the end of the day, we all want the same .... more people enjoying MJ at better clubs and events. Through debate and discussion I think we all end up with a better understanding of what is possible and what should change.:grin:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Gus
usefull avtualy nyour mt earliers its equallt responbse Okie. I vote that we all club together and buy Gus a spelling and typing course for his next birthday!!

When I started here he was bad, but I think that he's actually getting worse!! :cheers:

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Okie. I vote that we all club together and buy Gus a spelling and typing course for his next birthday!!


Nahh ... what I needed was some Red Bull and someone else to do my VAT return ... which should have been in on Friday. Anyone know any firendly Customs and Excise people (please refrain from making any obvious comments on that:wink: )

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gus
Anyone know any firendly Customs and Excise people (please refrain from making any obvious comments on that:wink: )

I was late with a VAT return once - due to a postal strike:angry:

HM Customs and Excise wrote saying they had put me on probation, and if I did it again they would fine me. I 'phoned to make my excuses and they started talking about a guillotine, which was a bit scary:tears: I think they meant it was something that came down at the end of the day the return was due - but they do use scary language don't they...

You can appeal but I don't think 'practicing for Blackpool' is going to be acceptable:devil:

Don't be late again, you naughty, naughty boy:wink:

[Alfie]

I am on the crew of a Blitz venue in Birmingham. The crew card we are issued enables any crew member to visit any venue, any time.
This encourages all Blitz crew members to support all Blitz events which can only be good for the company. I think this really makes you a member of the organisation not just a helper at a venue.
So if I wished to travel I could dance 6 nights a week for free in return for being a Blitz Jiver once a fortnight. YIPPPEEEEEE
:clap: :clap: :clap:

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Alfie
I am on the crew of a Blitz venue in Birmingham. The crew card we are issued enables any crew member to visit any venue, any time.
This encourages all Blitz crew members to support all Blitz events which can only be good for the company. I think this really makes you a member of the organisation not just a helper at a venue.
So if I wished to travel I could dance 6 nights a week for free in return for being a Blitz Jiver once a fortnight. YIPPPEEEEEE
:clap: :clap: :clap:
There must be some that want to taxi for the perks, rather for the love of it. I would guess that Blitz is on the lookout for such opportunists, and selects and monitors with care. If that is the case then my guess is that they have the better policy. Having a hard working core of good sociable dancers that circulate a lot should be very good for the organisation.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
There must be some that want to taxi for the perks, rather for the love of it. I would guess that Blitz is on the lookout for such opportunists, and selects and monitors with care. And is this a problem???

Surely the reasons why people taxi are less important than how good a job they do. After all, I doubt that very many people would go to any sort of job, if they weren't being paid to do it. What makes taxi-dancing any different?

If someone is doing it for the perks only, but is doing it in a capable, friendly and professional manner, then I don't see that there would be anything to worry about at all. I certainly don't see why such people would be labelled 'opportunists'. :confused:

Trampy

[bigdjiver]

Gus, this seems a subject close to your heart. I was wondering, did your problems with Ceroc HQ start because you were teaching for other organisations whilst a Ceroc franchisee?
Others have reported that Ceroc used to consider this a no-no.

[Gus]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
Gus, I was wondering, did your problems with Ceroc HQ start because you were teaching for other organisations whilst a Ceroc franchisee?


Hmmmm ... think that could be slander, or is it libel ... what do you think Trampy? :wink:

Nope ... didnt do that. The details of my "problems with Ceroc HQ" are between me and Ceroc HQ ... but sufficeth to say that I was the one who finished the relationship ... not the other way round. My resignation from the CTA was prompted by the resignation of a number of key instructors who I regarded as being leading lights (including Viktor).

Curious ... not quite sure how your enquiry is relevant to the debate ... but always glad to contribute .......

Hope to see you at Blackppol to further the debate over a Becks or several:cheers:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Gus
Hmmmm ... think that could be slander, or is it libel ... what do you think Trampy? :wink: Ummm. It's libel. Slander is spoken, libel is written.

If it's either of course. Which I'm not saying it is. Or isn't. I think that you need a lawyer :D

Steve

[Andy McGregor]

One of my friends who used to taxi spoke with me recently. She said that a local organiser had sacked her and 2 other, unpaid, staff, in writing, for not working hard enough. Understandably she was very upset as, at least to me, she seems to work very hard at taxiing:tears:

And now to the controlling bit. She was told that if she didn't bad mouth this organiser she wouldn't be banned from his classes. She hasn't and I don't think she would - but that hasn't stopped me..

..obviously...

:devil:


Just recently I've been looking at the business model for MJ classes. There is money to be made if you have loads of classes but the market is so full of players it is a bit like the 'ice cream wars' in Glasgow.


And why was I looking at the business model:whistle:

Just kidding..

..probably...

[bigdjiver]

Me: Gus, I was wondering, did your problems with Ceroc HQ start because you were teaching for other organisations whilst a Ceroc franchisee?


Originally posted by Gus
Hmmmm ... think that could be slander, or is it libel ... what do you think Trampy? :wink:

It never occured to me that the way I phrased that question was making any allegation whatsoever. It was not intended.

Nope ... didnt do that.

Curious ... not quite sure how your enquiry is relevant to the debate ... but always glad to contribute .......


The debate was about crew "loyalty". You said you taught on contract to other organisations. It has been reported on this forum that there is a bit of friction between you and Ceroc HQ. I just wondered if you had been contracting your services prior to your split. I could imagine HQ getting heavy about that would be an incentive to pack up. It seemed a reasonable question in the circumstances. No allegation intended.

[Gus]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
I just wondered if you had been contracting your services prior to your split. I could imagine HQ getting heavy about that would be an incentive to pack up. It seemed a reasonable question in the circumstances. No allegation intended.

Fair point ... maybe I'm a bit sensitive after some allegations made by someone from HQ on the Forum a while back.....

No ... the friction between me and HQ was more to do with perceptions about what support a Franchisee should expect and limitations as to putting on events using non-Ceroc instructors. with the passage of time it seems that at least the latter point is now being addressed.

I don’t bear any malice over it and I'm quite happy to recommend even the club I'm banned from to people if they happen to live in that area.

The interesting thing about loyalty is ... loyalty to what? My most difficult point as franchisee of Ceroc Nantwich was when two of my crew, who I'd spent a lot of time coaching, decided to also start crewing for Blitz. I really had a problem with that and tried to point out that Blitz Bowden was (at that time) my biggest competition and in crewing for Blitz they could potentially damage my fledgling club (things between Blitz and Ceroc were pretty tense in those days). My crew didn’t see it like that and I so I was left with a choice or losing two crew (and friends) by sticking to my guns or just going with it. I chose the latter.

I still think they were wrong to crew for a competing venue (after I'd trained them) but their loyalty was to Modern Jive and they thought by crewing at both clubs they were helping to promote MJ. Who is right? Maybe a bit of both.

[Lounge Lizard]

[i]Just recently I've been looking at the business model for MJ classes. There is money to be made if you have loads of classes but the market is so full of players it is a bit like the 'ice cream wars' in Glasgow.


And why was I looking at the business model:whistle:

Just kidding..

..probably... Oh goody a new dance organiser in the brighton area, just what we need.....probably:rolleyes:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
[B] Oh goody a new dance organiser in the brighton area, just what we need.....probably:rolleyes:

What we need in the Brighton area is a good dance organiser. At the moment we've got Phil Duckett's quarterly dances that are good...


On the subject of Gus's dilemma, I think he made the right choice. To do otherwise would be to weaken the market. Which can be no good when you're in it! The problem was probably that the two organisations were in conflict more than the 'defection' of taxi dancers.

I have a personal example of how it went the other way. A few years ago a couple started dance classes in our area. Lynda (of the list, AKA MinnieM) asked local dancers to support them, which I started doing as I'd known the woman for some years. I told them I'd help them. I offered to taxi for them for 6 months if they wanted but no longer as I prefer to just dance. They accepted my offer, I turned up every week, danced with all the beginners, dragged my dancing friends along, suggested a new venue which is still in use, etc, etc - I even wore the, very ordinary, shirt:sick: This couple split up soon after I started and the guy, who I hardly knew, carried on with the business - but I stuck to my commitment and carried on with the taxi work. After 6 months I reminded him that my time was up and he needed to find a replacement - he didn't seem to take that in and did nothing even though I kept suggesting people, so I carried on helping.

Then, Graham LeClerc had a hernia operation and couldn't do the ice-breaker lesson at a ball he was running so he asked me to do a 'fun' lesson for 2 couples I'd seen taught by Nigel & Nina and Andy & Rena. Of course I did it (no, LL, I wasn't paid...) because I was asked and I'm a helpful kind of guy. When this other organiser heard about it he 'phoned me and sacked me in a quite unpleasant way for working for the competition:tears:

This left me with a nasty taste in my mouth to say the least. But I let bygones be bygones and a few years later this organiser opened a new venue and asked me to busk. I was one of the few that did. Then he asked me to teach a lesson one Wednesday which I was happy to do. Although I didn't ask, he told me that he'd give me an envelope with some 'Admit Ones' in it and a couple of free dance tickets. I taught the lesson with Boozy Bird as my demo, loads of my dancing friends came. Guess what, no envelope - but he gave Boozy Bird a free dance ticket. What I did get was an email telling me that he saw me 'collecting dancer's 'phone numbers for future use' and that he was considering banning me:tears: What I'd actually done was written down the number of a friend who'd just moved back to Brighton after spending a few years in the USA:innocent:

The above is the kind of thing that happens when organisers can't trust each other - and it's not nice to be part of. So I think Gus was right to make the decision he did to keep on his taxi dancers, especially as they are friends:hug:

[bigdjiver]

"Loyalty" is a very emotive thing. Most human beings are tribal too some degree, and some are very tribal. We have only to think of people being beaten up for wearing the "wrong" football shirt.

Most humans also have a streak of paranoia, it is a necessary defence mechanism. There will be organisers who see their crew or clientele who visit other venues as “traitors”, and conversely, and illogically, those from other venues as recruiters or spies. Most mature businesses recognise that people shop around and like variety, and what you lose here you gain there.

In the final analysis I believe that if you run a good venue exuding a relaxed sense of happiness, people will come. Bad vibes from the organiser will propagate down through the structure, and put people off.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Gus
...My most difficult point as franchisee of Ceroc Nantwich was when two of my crew, who I'd spent a lot of time coaching, decided to also start crewing for Blitz. I really had a problem with that and tried to point out that Blitz Bowden was (at that time) my biggest competition and in crewing for Blitz they could potentially damage my fledgling club (...). My crew didn’t see it like that ...


It's probably a good idea to get expectations very clear before taking people on.

I'm trying out as a beginner revision teacher for Nicky this quarter. I got a letter explaining what I get and what is expected of me if I'm to be part of the crew. It's then my choice to accept or reject the deal (or negotiate, I guess). It's good to know beforehand what's OK and what's not OK.