Learning by repetition: good/bad?

[Gadget]

Originally posted by jivecat
Do any ladies have suggestions for how to get off a "progress plateau"? In some ways I think this is easier for men because the dance is so much more under their control. They can choose to practise a move over and over again until they get it right but I can't easily do this. Sometimes leaders show me new moves but without sufficient repetition and practice I'm not likely to get them right and I find this frustrating. Are there any solutions to this?

This post got me thinking a little bit on practicing by repition of moves: is this a good or a bad thing to do?

My argument would be that it's actually detrimental to followers to repeat the same move again and again - it instills a pattern that when the lead starts leading a move, the follower goes onto 'auto-pilot' and completes it the way they have been practicing. For Leads, repetition again breeds familuarity - a move must end like this because it started like this.
I know that I am guilty of automatically going into a few micro-routines of three or four moves and have to really concentrate to break from the middle of them into another variation.

So: good, or bad?

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gadget
My argument would be that it's actually detrimental to followers to repeat the same move again and again - it instills a pattern that when the lead starts leading a move, the follower goes onto 'auto-pilot' and completes it the way they have been practicing. learning by repetition is a good thing, and sometimes the only way to really get a move / pattern / technique right!

Your argument above is flawed because it limits the role of a follower. There is much more to being a good follower than just following the lead and learning not to anticipate a move (though these are crucial too).
For a follower, repeating a move will allow to work out which foot is best for a particular position, where to place and what to do with their arms / hands, the most efficient way to turn / bend... whether they can introduce a pause for effect style, slow down a turn, add style etc...

To answer JiveCat's point, i would recommend you ask your teacher or a competent lead to work through specific moves, not always easy, but most men would love the chance to practise more.
While doing the class, you can also watch some of the good followers (on and off the stage), especiall if there are extra women, and you're waiting on the side. Pick up tips and ideas. :waycool:

Finaly, come up to Scotland and we'll sort you out :wink:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Franck
learning by repetition is a good thing, and sometimes the only way to really get a move / pattern / technique right!
No, I dissagree: there should be no pattern other than where they are led - the style and tequnique can be practiced with any move. The lead should be able to lead the lay through his pattern, the follower should be watching/feeling for areas in the pattern that they can embelish. Their style colours the whole dance, but should not affect the pattern being led.

Your argument above is flawed because it limits the role of a follower. There is much more to being a good follower than just following the lead and learning not to anticipate a move (though these are crucial too).
I think I covered that above; The lady actually weaves the pattern, the lead is the loom used. There is so much that they could do, I think that it makes the lead's job that much harder - styles and individual embelishments need to be compensated for in the pattern being led.

For a follower, repeating a move will allow to work out which foot is best for a particular position, where to place and what to do with their arms / hands, the most efficient way to turn / bend... whether they can introduce a pause for effect style, slow down a turn, add style etc...
Why does this need to be learned by repetition and embedding the pattern of the move into the brain? Learning a specific move in terms of moving your body from here, to here, to here, to here,... only allows you to dance that move. Learning "If I am here, I can do this", "If I am here I can do this",... is much more productive and does not require repetition of the same move - only similar moves that put you into the position you want to practice.
Example: David & Lilly's style/lead workshop - the 'arm flick' lead. I found that the whole walk-round thing produced a few problems for me: Firstly I don't think that men look that good walking (must be a hip thing). Secondly, the lady either anticipated and raised the arm, or started to anticipate, stopped and I missed the arm. Third, on someone who did not know the move I would be in danger of hitting someone (or myself) with the lady's flailing arms.
But I now have another exit from a front-basket; a single flick and swoop under into first move position.
I have not learned the move as a->b->c->d->e->f.., but as a.b.c.d. and decided to incorporate point c into my dancing.
{Good workshop BTW}

Does this make sense? Admitedly, I used repetition to understand the move, but not to learn the move.

[jivecat]

Originally posted by Franck .......learning by repetition is a good thing, and sometimes the only way to really get a move / pattern / technique right!

I seem to have inadvertantly started my first thread!

I don't see how learning can take place without repetition for the vast majority of people. It creates a kind of basic template of the move in the brain- once there, it gives me the confidence to turn my attention to the other aspects of the move which you mention. I can't do anything else with a move until my brain and muscles have got this basic pattern right, which always takes some repetition.

I do go onto autopilot sometimes when moves are led in a predictable kind of way (time to get my wrists smacked here) but it's less likely to happen with beginners, because I can't be sure what they will do, and with strong leaders- ditto. I much prefer being made to concentrate for whatever reason!


For a follower, repeating a move will allow to work out which foot is best for a particular position, where to place and what to do with their arms / hands, the most efficient way to turn / bend... whether they can introduce a pause for effect style, slow down a turn, add style etc...

Absolutely right.


Finaly, come up to Scotland and we'll sort you out :wink:

Oooer, can hardly wait!

[Gary]

People learning martial arts have a similar problem, I believe. They need to learn proper technique, but need to always be responsive rather than slotting into a "rut". They still often (I believe, have done almost no martial arts) practice with fixed "routines" of moves, to get the technique locked into muscle memory. I guess they have other stuff they do to work on using that technique in a responsive/adaptive way.

(Bracing myself for real martial artists to point out how completely I misunderstand things).

So I guess like Franck says repeating a move a lot to get the technique/feel locked into muscle memory is probably a good thing (so long as you also do other stuff to work on adaptiveness).

[fruitcake]

Originally posted by Gary

(
So I guess like Franck says repeating a move a lot to get the technique/feel locked into muscle memory is probably a good thing (so long as you also do other stuff to work on adaptiveness).

Firstly..... I cannae believe I'm replying to someone in Australia-coool!

Secondly...my god don't some of you men ramble on, I'm afraid Gadget I've only got about 3 minutes and don't have time to read your posts in detail, but i think i've got the gist.

I think everyone is different, and although research has shown, allegedly, that repetition is the best way to learn things,I believe that's true, but as we arel earning lots of other moves at the same time, we should be able to adapt.

It would come under the phrase,practice makes perfect. Of course, I am speaking not only form a women's point of view, but a Hazel point of view, I personally need to repeat things a few times to remember them. But repeating them in a pattern can be misleading, as you remember them in a pattern.

For example, learning my german personal pronouns, I have got into the habit of remembering them in the order they are in on the page, I find now, that if they are presented to me in the opposite order I'm lost!
Oh, was that a bit of a ramble?
Sorry,
Fruitcake

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gadget
Example: David & Lilly's style/lead workshop - the 'arm flick' lead. I found that the whole walk-round thing produced a few problems for me: Firstly I don't think that men look that good walking (must be a hip thing). Secondly, the lady either anticipated and raised the arm, or started to anticipate, stopped and I missed the arm. Third, on someone who did not know the move I would be in danger of hitting someone (or myself) with the lady's flailing arms.
It wasn't the easiest of moves to do which is why repetition is really necessary to get the timing and technique right. The women have to learn to wait till the arm is lifted and the men have to learn how to flick the arm effectively. And as David pointed out it's a move you need to be careful of so you don't hurt yourself, your aprtner or someone else.

It did of course look great when D&L did it - but then all their moves look great:D . It's just that most of us men can't move and lead like David and few women have the grace and experience of Lily. She made the walk, dragging the toe look effortless and that in itself needs practice and repetition.

As long as men don't do the same move over and over but mixes it with a fe wother moves then repetition is perfectly ok.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Bill
It wasn't the easiest of moves to do which is why repetition is really necessary to get the timing and technique right. The women have to learn to wait till the arm is lifted and the men have to learn how to flick the arm effectively.
I agree that some repetition is necessary; but only for the man to learn how to flick the arm and the lady to learn what to do when the arm is flicked. This is the concept behind the move; learning the walking bit and always doing flick-flick-flick is learning a pattern.
The same with the music box piroette - Adam taught a similar concept with a lunge last year; the concept is that you hold the lady in a frame and rotate her.
The waist block/lead was shown in different situations within the same move, but it was the same concept through-out.
You don't need to repeat these specific moves in order to practice the concepts behind them: doing so will lead to ridgid patterns in your dancing that are harder to fit with the music. (IMHO :wink: )



It did of course look great when D&L did it - but then all their moves look great:D . It's just that most of us men can't move and lead like David and few women have the grace and experience of Lily. She made the walk, dragging the toe look effortless and that in itself needs practice and repetition.
Well, yes - but the walk is a 'style' point rather than a move (and I have seen you do a similar "latin" step in before... toe down, slidddddde-step; shoulders back, head up but looking down slightly over one shoulder, melting the lady into you.)


As long as men don't do the same move over and over but mixes it with a fe wother moves then repetition is perfectly ok.
OK, but no more than that. I want to be more than just OK :waycool:

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gadget
You don't need to repeat these specific moves in order to practice the concepts behind them: doing so will lead to ridgid patterns in your dancing that are harder to fit with the music. (IMHO :wink: )



Well, yes - but the walk is a 'style' point rather than a move




not sure what you mean here Gadget.

You have to practice a move to get the feel of it and to 'perform' it properly. You can get into moves in different ways but practicing each one means you are also covering the 'concept' ( not sure what you mean by that !!) The pattern can be altered by speeding up or slowing down the move accoridng to the music ie interpretation :na:


The walk was a specific style point but a walk on it's own can still be a move ( think of the number of different 'walking' moves there are in Ceroc) - the way you walk can be the style.

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gadget
I want to be more than just OK :waycool:

Don't we all..................:rolleyes:

[Martin]

IMHO repetition of all the beginner moves = essential.

I have seen so many "intermediate" dancers who still need to go back and fully learn the beginner moves.:tears:

Fully get the basics, then move on.

I am focusing this mainly on followers, great hand positioning and styling, no clue of the basics...:blush:

Currently involved in an "advanced routine" where 2/3rds should really go back and spend more time on the basics IMHO.

First learn to walk