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Mikey
23rd-February-2004, 12:33 AM
Re: Re: Resurrection

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DangerousCurves
Inside information.... MENAGE A TROIS

I've only seen a few preliminary moves being tested...

...but we had to hose down the cats!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by yogi bear today

Really excellent fun menage a trois class (I assume this is what is usually called Double Trouble....menage a trois is a MUCH better name ) last Friday week at Bedford Ceroc. Anyone who was there will know what I mean. My thanks to all involved in its conception. Things will never be the same again


__________________
"Ssssssmarter than the average bear......!!"




:yeah: I suppose having first found a ceroc teacher copying my strictly sinfull class after Camber and calling it his own , i should not really be surprised to now hear Ceroc have done a class called Menage a trois.. gee i wonder where that idea came from huh.. couldn't possibly be from Bognor now could it..
Some may say it's a compliment in a way, but not when Ceroc don't have the common courtesy to even give credit to anyone else... a shame it now seems to have no original ideas of it's own... :angry:

bigdjiver
23rd-February-2004, 04:15 AM
I was at Bedford at the Friday Freestyle. I heard it called "Double Trouble" about three times, but I did not hear it called "Menage a Trois" NOT AT ALL.

Are you accusing Michaella of copying your choreography?

I cannot remember exact sequence, but do remember the sections.

The routine consisted of a double wrap, and double single handed layback. (I have seen this before, Aussie video? John Sweeney?)

Ladies pushed back, but clawing along gents arms. ( I have done this to a few ladies without seeing it anywhere)

All held hands, one lady wrapped another in front of her, and the gent wrapped her in front of him. All three laid back. ( I have seen this before from John Sweeney)

Gent kneeled and ladies walked around. Finishing One each side. Gent extended arms low in front of him. Ladies stepped over and straddled his arms (new to me, visions of a night in the cells ) and took it in turns to lean forward wiggling their boobs. (Seen this before)

Does that sound like your routine?

I thought it was Michaella's choreography, and congratulated her on it afterwards. The vast majority of the class "got it", and I only saw two people quit the class.

A superb evening. The Corn Exchange always has been for me.

Mikey
23rd-February-2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
I was at Bedford at the Friday Freestyle. I heard it called "Double Trouble" about three times, but I did not hear it called "Menage a Trois" NOT AT ALL.

Are you accusing Michaella of copying your choreography?



I didn't name or accuse any individual , i simply pointed out what i was told or led to believe... What i find iritating is ceroc taking others ideas and calling it thier own which was done with the strictly sinful class after camber.. same routine, same music and he even had his demonstrator dress like my own was.. sad, that he announced it to be this great new idea he had for a fun class.. so i presumed it had happened yet again... The dance world is so small at times it always comes back round when things like that occur..

Rachel
23rd-February-2004, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
I didn't name or accuse any individual , i simply pointed out what i was told or led to believe... What i find iritating is ceroc taking others ideas and calling it thier own which was done with the strictly sinful class after camber.. same routine, same music and he even had his demonstrator dress like my own was.. sad, that he announced it to be this great new idea he had for a fun class.. so i presumed it had happened yet again... The dance world is so small at times it always comes back round when things like that occur.. Good ideas will always be copied/plagarised. Which, in many ways, is not necessarily a bad thing - I guess all teachers (and dancers) pick up bits of styling/moves from others and like to pass them on.

But I have a feeling that we're going to start seeing 'menage a trois' as opposed to 'double trouble' classes springing up all over the place now. It seems pretty discourteous to steal a name, such as Stricly Sinful or Menage a Trois.

Views from the Bedford class seemed to be very 'mixed'. It was the standard 2 women/1 man thing, though, and didn't touch your Bognor routine!!
Rachel

Rachel
23rd-February-2004, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
... with the strictly sinful class after camber.. same routine, same music and he even had his demonstrator dress like my own was.. sad, that he announced it to be this great new idea he had for a fun class.. Oops, missed that - that's bad! I didn't know about that. If you're going to copy something to that extent, you've at least got to give credit where it's due.

Bill
23rd-February-2004, 01:06 PM
As someone who enjoys double trouble I'd love to see the menage a trois class. I think it's only courtesy for a teacher to tell a class where a move come from if it's not their own.

John Sweeney was kind enough to ask if he could use one of our moves when teaching at Brighton last year although the move we did was a variation of what Scot taught in Edinburgh.

I think it's one thing to copy or alter a move you see someone else do and another to teach it and possibly claim it for your own. We all look around to see what moves other people do and certainly the three of us have modified moves we've seen and adpated them for our own style. In fact we took it as a compliment when we saw others doing a few of 'our' moves - just means we have to try and come up with a few more. :sick:

Most teachers I've seen have given credit where it's due if it's not from the Ceroc manual.

Hope to make it for a menagae a trois sometime soon. :D

bigdjiver
23rd-February-2004, 02:44 PM
Over to Yogi Bear - Michaela says she called it "Double Trouble", which accords to my memory. There were over 300 potential witnesses.

She says that the routine was hers, worked out with Kirsty, which I 100% believe. I did congratul;ate her afterwards - it flowed, it worked, and had plenty of Wow! factor. :clap: :clap: For the first time ever I went through the whole fun routine at the normal class night following, and intend to do so again and build upon it.

I have seen Michaela working on other fun class routines, and making changes, trying out innovations. She is an creator. She has been responsible for introducing many moves into Ceroc, (some of the better ones IMO). It is highly probable that Mikey has done more of her moves (unknowingly) than she of his. She often trials new ones in her normal classes, and says if she has picked up a move from someone else.

I like the phrase "Menage a trois", full kudos for that :clap: , and I would remember it if I had heard it.

Mikey
23rd-February-2004, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
It is highly probable that Mikey has done more of her moves (unknowingly) than she of his.


Well of course that must be the case, after dancing for over 12 years and teaching for the last 12 i could not posibly have had an original or creative idea, they must all have being someone elses... silly me... mind you, i don't have a nice fat book of moves like Ceroc teachers do.. hey ho.. they need the idea from somewhere .. i do opologise for my ignorance, but at least i know now eh... and lets not forget if it's a new move, it had to be a ceroc teacher who thought of it too... :whistle:

Gus
23rd-February-2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
Well of course that must be the case, after dancing for over 12 years and teaching for the last 12 i could not possibly have had an original or creative idea, ......

Of course the problem is that as we only have two arms and legs (at most) there is only a finite amount of moves available so people across the UK (and beyond) will inevitably develop similar moves quite separately from each other. Happened to me twice ... once when I'd travelled all the way to NZ with a new move ... only to find its one of their 'old' moves:tears:

....having said that, its a bit bad if someone has consciously stolen someone else’s move. Teachers should always credit the source of a new move.

bigdjiver
23rd-February-2004, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
Well of course that must be the case, after dancing for over 12 years and teaching for the last 12 i could not posibly have had an original or creative idea, they must all have being someone elses...

I DID NOT SAY THAT

I doubt anybody said that.

You accused someone of using a phrase of yours - I was there. I have told you that they did not. They have confirmed that they did not.

For the record Michaela started dancing at age 5.


silly me... mind you, i don't have a nice fat book of moves like Ceroc teachers do.. hey ho.. they need the idea from somewhere .. i do opologise for my ignorance, but at least i know now eh... and lets not forget if it's a new move, it had to be a ceroc teacher who thought of it too... :whistle:

NOBODY SAID THAT EITHER

Ceroc an Le Roc, and others later, have been mostly responsible for collecting and collating dance moves dating back decades or more, and adding to that catalog where they could. I do not doubt that you are part of that tradition.

This reply looks like a smoke screen to cover the fact that Yogi Bear might have made an error of phrasing in his post, and you have jumped to the wrong conclusion, and are not man enough to admit that you might be mistaken.

Mikey
23rd-February-2004, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver


This reply looks like a smoke screen to cover the fact that Yogi Bear might have made an error of phrasing in his post, and you have jumped to the wrong conclusion, and are not man enough to admit that you might be mistaken.

Oh i'm not mistaken. If you had bothered to read my original post it concerned not just what may have occured at bedford, but also what did occur via another ceroc teacher, who blatantly stole the entire strictly sinful class, it's moves, it's music and even how it looked.. the remarks on Ceroc seemingly unable to come up with it's own ideas was a general one... and you should learn to understand sarcasam in wit, it appears to be going over your head...:wink:

Gus
23rd-February-2004, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
the remarks on Ceroc seemingly unable to come up with it's own ideas was a general one

Mikey, I think its a bit unfair to label the whole of Ceroc just because 1 CTA teacher is a slimeball. There are many other teachers who have lifted material from others and passed it off as their own. In particular, there have been many 'Viktor moves' (though he is at pains to say which ones he has learnt fomr elsewhere) that have been 'adopted' by lesser teachers.

Chris
23rd-February-2004, 07:52 PM
The main thing IMO is the dancers, and any teacher worth his or her salt should have that interest at heart. Following on from that, the main point about mentioning the source of a move if it is not 'original' IMO is that it allows dancers to reference it back and see how it may have been taught by others, whether differently or just from a different angle etc, and improve understanding of the move. In some cases it means you can get a video version for comparison.

Sometimes acknowledging source is overlooked - and I have seen Viktor overlook it as well - no harm done. A kind and polite word bringing it to the person's attention and asking that it be credited in future should suffice. When it comes to inventing moves there is very little that is truly 'original' even if it wasn't copied. There's no end of times that a dancer will think up a move without having seen it before only to find another dancer has created a similar or identical move - if not in MJ then in another type of dance. The likelihood of this is reduced in team cabaret, or a fully choreographed cabaret, where copyrighjt more easily applies - and to some extent double-bugging/double-trouble/menage-a-trois moves - but encouraging polite acknowledgement is more of the essence to be aimed at IMHO.

stompin' phil
23rd-February-2004, 08:04 PM
Unless you have a patent office for dance moves how would you know whats new and what isn't.?

Once the majority of dance teachers were regional but with the expanding market of weekenders and guest teachers who bring their own moves to new areas i would have thought it would be a nightmare to know for sure what was original or not.

IMO i thought Viktor had his own style of moves but as more people see him and build a feel for his moves they may try to create similar things and improvise!

Progression

A true pedigee move (no cross breeds or variations!) A Nightmare.

How many more variations is there of the first move that can be led easily.

Will it be a combination of slick moves within 14-16 beats in the future that will hightlight the person.The killer punch!

bigdjiver
23rd-February-2004, 11:43 PM
I will write slowly in the hope everybody can understand.
-------------------------
Posted by yogi bear:

Really excellent fun menage a trois class (I assume this is what is usually called Double Trouble....menage a trois is a MUCH better name ) last Friday week at Bedford Ceroc ....
-------------------------
Yogi is apparently paying you the compliment of using your name for "Double Trouble", because he likes it. ( I like it too )

I hope that Yogi is not saying they used that name at Bedford, because they did not.

Mikey replied:
:yeah: I suppose having first found a ceroc teacher copying my strictly sinfull class after Camber and calling it his own , i should not really be surprised to now hear Ceroc have done a class called Menage a trois.. gee i wonder where that idea came from huh.. couldn't possibly be from Bognor now could it..

Firstly Mikey appears to have wrongly assumed someone had used his phrase, when they did not.

Secondly he has compunded the error by mixing it in with a completely separate incident when someone is alleged to have used his routine. I initially read that as implying that Bedford had used his routine as well as his name. I suspect other tired and busy people would do the same. It is at least implying guilt by association.

Some may say it's a compliment in a way, but not when Ceroc don't have the common courtesy to even give credit to anyone else. a shame it now seems to have no original ideas of it's own... :angry:

Ceroc consists of individuals. I can only tell about those I know.
They do give credit. They do invent and innovate. Ceroc Central has grown like it has because of years of quality teaching by Emma and Michaela and many others, covering the spectrum of MJ, including raunchy. The best Double Trouble freestyle I have ever seen was by by a Ceroc Central Teacher, and John Sweeney has a good record too. The Friday routine was in that top class. I think the spectacular big finish was original too, though, as with many other sinful variations, it only occured in the demo, not the class.

Mikey:

Oh i'm not mistaken. If you had bothered to read my original post it concerned not just what may have occured at bedford, but also what did occur via another ceroc teacher, who blatantly stole the entire strictly sinful class, it's moves, it's music and even how it looked..
Save yourself some time get a rubber stamp made and train a parrot to keep repeating that.

IT DID NOT HAPPEN AT BEDFORD.

the remarks on Ceroc seemingly unable to come up with it's own ideas was a general one... and a generally false one.

and you should learn to understand sarcasam in wit, it appears to be going over your head... I suggested that Mikey owed Michaela an apology, instead another insult. Painting a smokescreen as sarcasm and wit does not impress me.

Yogi_Bear
24th-February-2004, 01:03 AM
I haven't gone back over the original posts, but if I might just say that:
(a) Michaela's class was great fun
(b) I've enjoyed immensely the 2 or 3 of Mikey's classes I have taken part in
(c) I've not claimed that the phrases menage a trois or double troublewere or were not used at Bedford -just that I think menage a trois is a great title for these sorts of classes.
I don't have any axe to grind on who coined what phrase or who developed whatever move or style....rather I just know what a good night Bedord always offers

:cheers:

Funky Si
24th-February-2004, 10:12 AM
Just a quick point:

didn't the French invent the phrase 'menage a trois '?

Let's invade!

:wink:


Anyhoo, who gives a monkeys and what's in a name.......

Funky Si

www.kordmusic.com

stewart38
24th-February-2004, 03:46 PM
I thought we were going to get away from all this personal mud slinging :tears:

Just for the record I invented all the moves in 1865

DangerousCurves
24th-February-2004, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
-------------------------
Posted by yogi bear:

Really excellent fun menage a trois class (I assume this is what is usually called Double Trouble....menage a trois is a MUCH better name ) last Friday week at Bedford Ceroc ....
-------------------------

Mikey replied:
:yeah: I suppose having first found a ceroc teacher copying my strictly sinfull class after Camber and calling it his own , i should not really be surprised to now hear Ceroc have done a class called Menage a trois.. gee i wonder where that idea came from huh.. couldn't possibly be from Bognor now could it..

Firstly Mikey appears to have wrongly assumed someone had used his phrase, when they did not.......

.....I suggested that Mikey owed Michaela an apology[/B]


To be fair to Mikey - he did not "assume" it - it was stated by a participant that he had been at a "menage a trois" class... and Yogi quoted an earlier posting by me which refers directly and unambiguously to Mikey's "menage a trois" class at Bognor.

It has been now clarified that that was Yogi's innocent term for the class - not the teachers/organisers - but in the circumstances, had I read Yogi's posting I would have interpretated it in exactly the same way that Mikey did. In fact I would have taken in to mean that not only the name, but also the style of his class had been copied. This was due to the phrasing and quoting in Yogi's posting.

I'm very glad to have it established that neither the name, nor the choreography was copied - but the confusion came from Yogi's posting - not Mikey's, so I feel that demands for apologies are somewhat inappropriate.

Funki Si asks "whats in a name" - well, if you spend time and effort thinking up a good one to distinguish your choreography and style of dancing from everyone else's, only to have some lazy unoriginal person come along and pass it off as their own great idea - it is bloody irritating! I was personally very angry to hear from participants who did both classes that EVERY MOVE of the first Strictly Sinful Class was copied only a few weeks later by a teacher who did not even bother to mention where his "inspiration" had come from.

Names matter - I somehow doubt "Ceroc" would disagree if they found another dance company using theirs!!!. :devil:

Mikey
24th-February-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
I will write slowly in the hope everybody can understand.


I will apologise on behalf of "everybody" since we are all so stupid in your opinion that you have to make such a remark... I'm so sorry we are not worthy of such intelligence as yours...:worthy:

Martin
24th-February-2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
I will write slowly in the hope everybody can understand.
-------------------------


You can only use this quote a limited amount of times.

You used this once in reply to one of my quotes.

Good on you :clap:

I fully understand that both me and Mikey need "slow talk" to get the gist... [Thick as s**t we are]

Real happy that people have original ideas, if they copy, all good too. The respectful thing is to acknowledge.

I have taught 2 of Viktors moves (and credited to him), I have also taught 1 of David and Lily's (and credited to them).

LL also credits where he first learnt dips and drop ( full credit to him).

Only the insecure will not give full credit. Top dancers respect other top dancers...

BTW Mikey, I taught one of yours the other day with full credits, now got 3 Aussies coming over to see you at Camber (big money for them)

Marty

bigdjiver
25th-February-2004, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by Mikey
I will apologise on behalf of "everybody" since we are all so stupid in your opinion that you have to make such a remark... I'm so sorry we are not worthy of such intelligence as yours...:worthy: Now it is you that does not appreciate sarcasm.

I hope I posess intelligence, integrity and industry. I took up valuable dancing time to quiz people tonight. None remembered the phrase being used. After the class I was collecting some computer bits from someone else who was there. I checked again. It appears that the phrase "It looks like you are set for a menage a trois" might have been used, addressing the male lead. That is, the phrase may have been used in its original French context. If so it is obviously enough to cause upset, but should not have caused justifiable upset. As has been pointed out, Mikey has no moral rights over the use of that phrase in its original context.

It seems that the truth may be somewhere in the middle, and threrefore apologise for any remarks I made concerning the use of that phrase. :kiss:

Mikey
25th-February-2004, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by bigdjiver


I hope I posess intelligence, integrity and industry. I took up valuable dancing time to quiz people tonight. .... It appears that the phrase "It looks like you are set for a menage a trois" might have been used, addressing the male lead. That is, the phrase may have been used in its original French context.

...It seems that the truth may be somewhere in the middle, and threrefore apologise for any remarks I made concerning the use of that phrase. :kiss:

I do appreciate your extensive efforts to establish how confusion arose - obviously, I have no problem with the phrase being used as a figure of speech, as was clearly the case here. :cheers:

Yogi_Bear
25th-February-2004, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
Re: Re: Resurrection

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DangerousCurves
Inside information.... MENAGE A TROIS

I've only seen a few preliminary moves being tested...

...but we had to hose down the cats!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by yogi bear today

Really excellent fun menage a trois class (I assume this is what is usually called Double Trouble....menage a trois is a MUCH better name ) last Friday week at Bedford Ceroc. Anyone who was there will know what I mean. My thanks to all involved in its conception. Things will never be the same again

As I've been extensively quoted after my original post I'd just like to add what I hope will be my final comment. When I saw the phrase Dangerous Curves had used (above) I decided that was a great way to describe the Bedford class. I arrived as the class was starting and have no recollection of any term that was or was not used by Michaela. Not having been to Bognor this year I had no idea that Mikey seems to have used the term for one of his classes. So my comment was simply that menage a trois was an excellent term and infinitely preferable IMHO to double trouble. This all seems to have caused quite a stir. No trouble intended by yours truly!




__________________
"Ssssssmarter than the average bear......!!"




:yeah: I suppose having first found a ceroc teacher copying my strictly sinfull class after Camber and calling it his own , i should not really be surprised to now hear Ceroc have done a class called Menage a trois.. gee i wonder where that idea came from huh.. couldn't possibly be from Bognor now could it..
Some may say it's a compliment in a way, but not when Ceroc don't have the common courtesy to even give credit to anyone else... a shame it now seems to have no original ideas of it's own... :angry: :)

Yogi_Bear
25th-February-2004, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
Re: Re: Resurrection

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DangerousCurves
Inside information.... MENAGE A TROIS

I've only seen a few preliminary moves being tested...

...but we had to hose down the cats!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by yogi bear today

Really excellent fun menage a trois class (I assume this is what is usually called Double Trouble....menage a trois is a MUCH better name ) last Friday week at Bedford Ceroc. Anyone who was there will know what I mean. My thanks to all involved in its conception. Things will never be the same again








As I've been extensively quoted after my original post I'd just like to add what I hope will be my final comment. When I saw the phrase Dangerous Curves had used (above) I decided that was a great way to describe the Bedford class. I arrived as the class was starting and have no recollection of any term that was or was not used by Michaela. Not having been to Bognor this year I had no idea that Mikey seems to have used the term for one of his classes. So my comment was simply that menage a trois was an excellent term and infinitely preferable IMHO to double trouble. This all seems to have caused quite a stir. No trouble intended by yours truly!

Sorry - left in too much of the original quotes - still computer illiterate!

bigdjiver
26th-February-2004, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by Martin
You can only use this quote a limited amount of times.

You used this once in reply to one of my quotes.

Good on you :clap:

The phrase "I will write slowly ..." is derived from a Spike Milligan quip, and he used it often. I do too. I certainly sometimes read things too quickly and get the wrong idea, and I have never felt alone in that. No insults to intelligence were intended, just a nudge to read slowly and carefully what I wrote. Having said that I did not write carefully enough a few times in this thread.:tears:

Martin
26th-February-2004, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
The phrase "I will write slowly ..." is derived from a Spike Milligan quip, and he used it often. I do too. I certainly sometimes read things too quickly and get the wrong idea, and I have never felt alone in that. No insults to intelligence were intended, just a nudge to read slowly and carefully what I wrote. Having said that I did not write carefully enough a few times in this thread.:tears:

All cool, thanks for replying and clarifying.

I was probably a bit fast in replying myself :cheers:

White Knuckle Ride
1st-March-2004, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by DangerousCurves
To be fair to Mikey - he did not "assume" it - it was stated by a participant that he had been at a "menage a trois" class... and Yogi quoted an earlier posting by me which refers directly and unambiguously to Mikey's "menage a trois" class at Bognor.

It has been now clarified that that was Yogi's innocent term for the class - not the teachers/organisers - but in the circumstances, had I read Yogi's posting I would have interpretated it in exactly the same way that Mikey did. In fact I would have taken in to mean that not only the name, but also the style of his class had been copied. This was due to the phrasing and quoting in Yogi's posting.

I'm very glad to have it established that neither the name, nor the choreography was copied - but the confusion came from Yogi's posting - not Mikey's, so I feel that demands for apologies are somewhat inappropriate.

Funki Si asks "whats in a name" - well, if you spend time and effort thinking up a good one to distinguish your choreography and style of dancing from everyone else's, only to have some lazy unoriginal person come along and pass it off as their own great idea - it is bloody irritating! I was personally very angry to hear from participants who did both classes that EVERY MOVE of the first Strictly Sinful Class was copied only a few weeks later by a teacher who did not even bother to mention where his "inspiration" had come from.

Names matter - I somehow doubt "Ceroc" would disagree if they found another dance company using theirs!!!. :devil:

Having seen Menage a trois at Camber p'haps it should've been called the Sunday Roast?:whistle:

Yogi_Bear
1st-March-2004, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by White Knuckle Ride
Having seen Menage a trois at Camber p'haps it should've been called the Sunday Roast?:whistle:

I really don't know why people are still quoting with reference to my first post on this subject. Once again for the record I had no idea at the time that the phrase 'menage de trois' had been used by anyone - not that anyone has any IPR with the term anyway. Strange how a casual phrase can cause so much wailing and gnashing of teeth...

Gus
27th-August-2004, 01:29 PM
Some may say it's a compliment in a way, but not when Ceroc don't have the common courtesy to even give credit to anyone else... a shame it now seems to have no original ideas of it's own... :angry:

Came across this old thread by accident ... and wondered if there was an angle that hadn't been discussed.

{ODA Mode On}
I think the original 'allegation' (and title) was aimed squarely at Ceroc ... and on reflection I think thats grossly unfair. The guilty parties spread far wider. Having watched a few DVDs of workshops and heard descriptions of a number of workshops in the North, I realised that a lot of the content has been borrowed from other sources. A lot of the Blues/UCP workshops I've seen have relied very heavily on material first introduced by Nigel and Nina. For the Latin workshops, a fair amount of the content I've seen recently was first 'introduced' by Viktor and Lydia who developed moves form their Salsa experience.

IMHO there is a world of difference in instructors who develop original material and promogulate it (Amir, V&L, N&N) and those who simply re-hash work done by other instructors. I'm NOT saying that the latter category are BAD, but think there is a clear distinction.

{ODA Mode Off}

I had the opportunity to teach two workshops in NZ 2 years ago ... and much of the content of one of the workshops was based on V&L moves with a few N&N moves. I felt obligated to clear this with the originators of the moves and tell the class where I'd got the moves from. Should I have paid a royalty to V&L ... dunno. But I think that if instructors present a workshop they should at least give credit where credit is due and not make out its 'all their own work' I know at least one instructor who has directly plagiarise LL's drops workshops :angry:

TheTramp
27th-August-2004, 01:49 PM
Don't understand Gus. Let's take one example from what you've just said.

Viktor & Lydia (except there isn't a V&L anymore - see another thread somewhere about this) developed moves from salsa.

Now. Maybe these people who have given Latin workshops that you've seen have never seen, been to any of the classes that V&L have given. Maybe they've also just done some salsa. After all, it is possible that these people have drawn on their own experience to come up with a workshop, that, since it takes moves from another style of dancing, could look similar to someone else who's also taken moves from another style of dancing. Maybe that's why they didn't credit V&L. Just a thought. Maybe they did go to a V&L workshop, and then just copy it. Did you ask them??

FWIW, dancing has been around so long, there can't be anything new that someone else hasn't already done (this is what I believe). And just because one person does something, doesn't mean that several other people have also done the same thing independently.

And just another thought. I've been to N&N teaching a lindy hop class. To the best of my recollection, they didn't credit the person who taught them lindy hop. But they learnt it somewhere, no? Is that the same?

Trampy

Gus
27th-August-2004, 02:05 PM
Don't understand Gus.

Clearly :flower:



And just another thought. I've been to N&N teaching a lindy hop class. To the best of my recollection, they didn't credit the person who taught them lindy hop. But they learnt it somewhere, no? Is that the same?
Trampy

Come on Trampy ... you're not that daft ... you know full well there is a world of difference from teaching a basic class, e.g. Mj, Salsa, Lindy, Hip Hop ... where the moves are well in the common domain. Its a totaly different level of workshop when you are teaching a more 'developed' workshop. I accept your point that its quite feasible to develop a move independant of another originator ... but you and me both know that instructors DO copy other instructors work! Then again have you ever tried to develop your own workshop and moves or are you content just to re-hash existing public domain moves?

CJ
27th-August-2004, 02:12 PM
Then again have you ever tried to develop your own workshop and moves or are you content just to re-hash existing public domain moves?

30-15.

:clap: :whistle:

MartinHarper
27th-August-2004, 02:38 PM
There is a world of difference in instructors who develop original material and promogulate it and those who simply re-hash work done by other instructors.

Who's original? In fashion, most fashion designers cite as their main influence "the street" - cool and unusual clothes and styles flaunted by cool and unusual people. I'd be surprised if the main influence for MJ teachers wasn't the dance floor. After all, we can't expect the best innovators to be the best teachers.

Dreadful Scathe
27th-August-2004, 02:57 PM
is it still Gus's serve ? :)

Gus
27th-August-2004, 03:20 PM
Who's original? In fashion, most fashion designers cite as their main influence "the street" - cool and unusual clothes and styles flaunted by cool and unusual people. I'd be surprised if the main influence for MJ teachers wasn't the dance floor. After all, we can't expect the best innovators to be the best teachers.

In my (limited) experience ther are three ways of developing 'new' MJ moves

1. 'Adapt'/adpot ( :whistle: ) from a compatible dance form, e.g. Salsa, Tango, Hip Hop
2. Spend hours in a dance studio working though all the possible compinations of arm/body movements wihtout inflicting too much self-harm
3. Seeing a move on the dancefloor and working with it to make it into a full fledged move.

(Of course there is always No. 4 ... just nick it from soneone else and call it your move)

I've tried all the above and 2. and 3. are both time consuming and fristrating. I would love to more of 1. but my dance experince outside MJ is mainly limited to dancing round handbags :sad: Some of the most innovative moves came from my brothers semi-drunk antics on a dancefloor with a MJ dance friend of mine ... funny thing is my bro doesn't dance! Unfunny thing I was too drunk to remember what the moves were when I sobered up the next day! :tears:

Dreadful Scathe
27th-August-2004, 03:43 PM
but my dance experince outside MJ is mainly limited to dancing round handbags :sad: :

I thought we'd moved forward from your handbag fetish ? You need to book me for more psychoanalysis, you're obviously regressing :)

Gordon J Pownall
27th-August-2004, 03:45 PM
......that have been 'adopted' by lesser teachers.


errr........other teachers would have been a nicer way of putting it Gus..... :whistle:

Gus
27th-August-2004, 03:51 PM
errr........other teachers would have been a nicer way of putting it Gus..... :whistle:
Gordy ... say after me "Some Instructors are BETTER than others!".

See ... its not so hard to admit it :flower:

spindr
27th-August-2004, 04:02 PM
Gordy ... say after me "Some Instructors are BETTER than others!".

Well, the tall one's are definitely easier to see from the back of the class :whistle:

SpinDr.

spindr
27th-August-2004, 04:03 PM
Gordy ... say after me "Some Instructors are BETTER than others!".

Well, the tall ones are definitely easier to see from the back of the class :whistle:

SpinDr.

Dreadful Scathe
27th-August-2004, 04:12 PM
....the loud obnoxious ones are easier to hear but it doesnt make them better :)

Gus is right, there are teachers that are better; therefore there are some that are "lesser teachers" - but its not a particularly nice turn of phrase. Of course this is coming from the Official Devils Advocate - theres a reason he has that title you know :)

Gordon J Pownall
27th-August-2004, 04:14 PM
Well, the tall ones are definitely easier to see from the back of the class :whistle:

SpinDr.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Gus,

Just an approach to life you might try - just for a littel while....find the good in others as well as the bad so that you have a balanced outlook.....find a positive way of saying things as opposed to taking the negative option each time....

the word lesser may be offensive to some, you could have said, less well known teachers or new teachers or teachers who teach for 30 minutes once every five years in Bogden - cum - Gobshyte - on - the - Marsh

Lesser just seemed so.......negative, hierachical and the language we have can be so expressive and powerful - just a thought..........

Still luv ya..... :hug:

Gus
27th-August-2004, 04:29 PM
..... there are teachers that are better; therefore there are some that are "lesser teachers" - but its not a particularly nice turn of phrase.


... the word lesser may be offensive to some, you could have said, less well known teachers or new teachers or teachers who teach for 30 minutes once every five years in Bogden - cum - Gobshyte - on - the - Marsh .

Ay ... you're both right. Must admit I couldn't remember using the word in my recent postings ... then realised Gordy was referring to something I posted 6 months back .... Have to agree that the word 'lesser' can be offensive. Must also admit that at the time I was pretty fired up by some of the statements being made and the fact that (IMHO) there were a few instructors using others instructors material and passing it off as their own ... so in those specific cases the word was used correctly .. not lesser in terms of teaching ability ... but in being less than honourable.

So .... must promise to be more carefull about offending people ( :whistle: ) ... unless of course I'm posting as ODA :devil:


ANYWAY ... back to thread. Does anyone believe that there are instructors using other peoples material and not giving due credit or passing it off as their own?

MartinHarper
27th-August-2004, 04:38 PM
the word lesser may be offensive to some

Who, exactly? Presumably not bird watchers...
"Ooh, ooh, a less... a le.... a differently crested heron! Ooh, and an otherwise spotted blue tit!"

TheTramp
27th-August-2004, 05:21 PM
Then again have you ever tried to develop your own workshop and moves or are you content just to re-hash existing public domain moves?
That implies a knowledge of anything I've ever taught. Which since you've never been to any of my classes (AFAIK), I'm not quite sure that you have. Feel free to come along to one. I'm teaching a Blues workshop on 11th September for Blitz in Newcastle. I'll make sure that Lynn puts you on the guest list. Then you can actually speak from actual knowledge, instead of making such insinuating comments based on....? :D

Apart from the basic blues patterns, which you've said yourself are in the common domain, then you can tell me if I've 'stolen' anyone elses routines, or whether I'm just teaching re-hashed existing public domain moves.

I'll welcome your comments...

Trampy

DavidB
27th-August-2004, 05:38 PM
In my (limited) experience ther are three ways of developing 'new' MJ moves

1. 'Adapt'/adpot ( ) from a compatible dance form, e.g. Salsa, Tango, Hip Hop
2. Spend hours in a dance studio working though all the possible compinations of arm/body movements wihtout inflicting too much self-harm
3. Seeing a move on the dancefloor and working with it to make it into a full fledged move.

(Of course there is always No. 4 ... just nick it from soneone else and call it your move)You missed the most obvious - making a mistake and not stopping.


Does anyone believe that there are instructors using other peoples material and not giving due credit or passing it off as their own?Can you tell me any that aren't?

There are very few true innovators in any type of dancing. And even those few don't innovate everything - they innovate based on the foundations learned from other dancers. There are a lot more dancers that have one or two unique moves, but it takes more than that to be called an innovator.

Crediting moves is a pointless exercise, and rarely accurate. Does Viktor credit every Salsa teacher who has taught him? Does Amir credit every ballet teacher and Tango teacher? Do you credit each Ceroc move to the teacher that put it in the 'book'?

Crediting influences is probably more useful all round.

David

Dazzle
27th-August-2004, 06:41 PM
Am I allowed to say not being a CTA trained, independent teacher with no CTA move manual, I have to get my moves from somewhere. I always try to teach moves I have done for some time. I obviously learned these somewhere, usually others classes. Unless that teacher mentioned where he got the move I try to credit where I learned it from. What about moves from Jiveaholics, etc. ? I try to give credit where credit is due, whenever I can.

I do create (usually through dancefloor error!) some moves myself. But I never assume that the move may or may not exist already, simnply because I have not been around enough to encounter it. I say I have put a move together, give it my own name, but ad a caveat that, that does not mean it doesn't exist or have a different name entirely.

How do others fair on this one? :confused:

Gus
27th-August-2004, 08:00 PM
Then you can actually speak from actual knowledge, instead of making such insinuating comments based on....? :D


Why so defensive. It was an open question, not an allegation. Never seen your workshops ... thats not the issue. Iwas asking whether it was original material or not as a general point following from my earlier statement (see below) ... get the drift?

IMHO there is a world of difference in instructors who develop original material and promogulate it (Amir, V&L, N&N) and those who simply re-hash work done by other instructors. I'm NOT saying that the latter category are BAD, but think there is a clear distinction.

Gus
27th-August-2004, 08:04 PM
Can you tell me any that aren't?......Crediting moves is a pointless exercise, and rarely accurate. Does Viktor credit every Salsa teacher who has taught him? Does Amir credit every ballet teacher and Tango teacher? Do you credit each Ceroc move to the teacher that put it in the 'book'?

Crediting influences is probably more useful all round.

David

Fair comment. I think I had digressed from the original point (which Mikey has raised). If someone takes wholescale elements of someone's workshop then presents it as their own ... then I think there may be an issue. Case in point ... say someone took the video of V&L last workshop, and then taught most of those moves as a workshop of their own, is that ethical?

TheTramp
28th-August-2004, 12:38 AM
Why so defensive. It was an open question, not an allegation. Never seen your workshops ... thats not the issue. Iwas asking whether it was original material or not as a general point following from my earlier statement (see below) ... get the drift?
Sorry if I was being defensive. It seemed to be an allegation in the way it was written.

Anyhow, I've spoken to Lynn (for other reasons, not just for that), and you're most welcome to come along if you want to!! :D

Trampy

Gus
28th-August-2004, 01:14 AM
Anyhow, I've spoken to Lynn (for other reasons, not just for that), and you're most welcome to come along if you want to!! :D

Many thanks for the offer but as I've been on a number of N&N Blues workshops (still the Blues Masters :worthy: ), done a Adam N close moves and I teach UCP myself, unless there was something really innovative I'm loath to drive 200+ miles ... besides, Stockport Town Hall is on that night ... biggest freestyle event in the North of the UK (AFAIK) ... so I know where I will be :grin:

Gus
28th-August-2004, 01:55 AM
Many thanks for the offer but .... unless there was something really innovative I'm loath to drive 200+ miles

Just re-read my previous post ... wasn't meaning to diss your workshop Trampy boy ... just expressing the view that I've done enough Blues for a while and would only be prepared to travel for something new ... like Amir's Jango workshops or Adam & Tas's latest offerings ... or a Marc workshop if any local Ceroc franchisees would be good enough to host one :wink:

CJ
28th-August-2004, 12:40 PM
is it still Gus's serve ? :)


Gordy ... say after me "Some Instructors are BETTER than others!".

See ... its not so hard to admit it :flower:

Serving?!?!?!?!!?

I think he's playing doubles...

:worthy:

CJ
28th-August-2004, 12:46 PM
Oh, and it's "Duece"

:clap:

bigdjiver
28th-August-2004, 05:03 PM
Fair comment. I think I had digressed from the original point (which Mikey has raised). If someone takes wholescale elements of someone's workshop then presents it as their own ... then I think there may be an issue. Case in point ... say someone took the video of V&L last workshop, and then taught most of those moves as a workshop of their own, is that ethical? If you learn something by legal means, and teach it within the law, then it is lawful. If the matter has been debated by the legislature, and the law made in their best judgment as being in the best interest of the public as a whole, then it is reasonable to assume that it is ethical, the balance of good outweighing the harm.

If you teach dance you have to accept that you are doing it for the common good. You have benefited from what has been learned from others, and others will benefit from what you add to the art. Hopefully people will know what is, and value the best teaching, but ripping off other peoples best moves and propogating them is the quickest way of ensuring that the maximum amount of people receive the maximum amount of enjoyment.

I sometimes credit special moves during a dance, e.g. that was a N&N blues lift, I derived that from an Emma move, I got that one from ice dance , I made that one up when dancing to "The Snake" ...

Perhaps we should have T-shirts listing our credits?

Hmmm .. Text: "With thanks to xxx, yyy, ..." forming the outline of jivers?

Anybody feel free to nick without accreditation

Gus
28th-August-2004, 06:14 PM
If you teach dance you have to accept that you are doing it for the common good. You have benefited from what has been learned from others, and others will benefit from what you add to the art.

Hold on ... nice sentiments .. but some of us have to make a living (or at least partialy) from this game! I'm out of contract at the moment, and intend to be till the end of the year. My only income is through my dance business. It can take about 10 - 15 mandays of effort to get a reasonable workshop together. Even my basic 1hr drops class took about 5 mandays to put together. How do you think I would feel if someone took my handouts, videoed the presentation then presented the course themselves. I'm not on about resorting to legal remedies ... I'm on about what is RIGHT.

bigdjiver
28th-August-2004, 08:19 PM
Hold on ... nice sentiments .. but some of us have to make a living (or at least partialy) from this game! I'm out of contract at the moment, and intend to be till the end of the year. My only income is through my dance business. It can take about 10 - 15 mandays of effort to get a reasonable workshop together. Even my basic 1hr drops class took about 5 mandays to put together. How do you think I would feel if someone took my handouts, videoed the presentation then presented the course themselves. I'm not on about resorting to legal remedies ... I'm on about what is RIGHT.Hard as it is to accept it is OK for someone to teach the same moves that you did. There is copyright protection for handouts and scripted dialogue and choreography, provided you can provide a sufficient level of copyright infringement. In practise I doubt that there would be no attempt to simplify or improve on what the copied teacher had done. We are where we are with MJ because the rules are that way. The hard fact is that if you cannot live in a business environment then you should not be in that business, a lesson that I learned the hard way elsewhere. For most of us the dance is the reward, and it is only the exceptional and lucky that will be able to make their living at it.
The powers that be have decided that this is "right".

The teachers that will suceed will do so on presentation and personal skills rather than unique content. How many people could duplicate Tommy Coopers or Frankie Howards act, with the same scripts?

Gus
28th-August-2004, 08:39 PM
There is copyright protection for handouts and scripted dialogue and choreography, provided you can provide a sufficient level of copyright infringement.
AKAIK Ceroc tried and failed to get moves copyrighted some time back.



The hard fact is that if you cannot live in a business environment then you should not be in that business, a lesson that I learned the hard way elsewhere. For most of us the dance is the reward, and it is only the exceptional and lucky that will be able to make their living at it.

Thats not really the point I was trying to make ... I was trying to establish the ethical question. Simple choice ... a bit like the music business ... why should instructors out the effort into developing new courses and material just so someone else can rip it off? Why do you think a lot of workshops have limited notes and dont allow videoing? If people played by the rules I'm sure a lot more instructors would provide better quality notes. If its just standard intermediate or generic drops or blues workshops ... no big deal ... but there are a lot of other 'moves' based workshops which are easily copied for little effort ... a bit like pirateing music.

What does concern me, and apologies if I'm misinterpreting the gist of what you're saying, is that instructors have to accept that all tehir hard work can just get subsumed by the dancing public with the risk that the originator doesnt get a fair payback for all the work put in ...

If you teach dance you have to accept that you are doing it for the common good.
I find that a worrying sentiment. Professional instructors have the right to earn a fair crust from what they do ... why should they be seen as a charity? ... or am I mis-representing what you were saying?

bigdjiver
28th-August-2004, 10:09 PM
AKAIK Ceroc tried and failed to get moves copyrighted some time back. Dime store guro mode: Protecting moves - no chance, scripted presentation or choreography - a small chance. If the video of one lesson looks just like the video of a copiers lesson, then there may be a case. I doubt anybody would duplicate a workshop to that degree. Most "copies" are compilations with some original content.


Thats not really the point I was trying to make ... I was trying to establish the ethical question. Simple choice ... a bit like the music business ... why should instructors out the effort into developing new courses and material just so someone else can rip it off? I know the point you were making. I was making the point that in business the law, as applied, is mainly what matters. Ethics are only a promotional tool.

As a dancer I sometimes copy two speciality moves, i.e. moves that I have only seen one person do, but only in environments where they are unlikely to perform them, or where partner is unlikely to ever come across them. Better in my mind to copy, than to deprive several partners the opportunity to enjoy them.


... why should instructors out the effort into developing new courses and material just so someone else can rip it off? ... I do not believe any body designs a course just so they can be copied. I believe most develop courses for the love of the art, and the hope of a return. It is an income, not a pension. Comedians have to get used to the idea of their jokes being circulated by the public, and having a short shelf life.


What does concern me, and apologies if I'm misinterpreting the gist of what you're saying, is that instructors have to accept that all tehir hard work can just get subsumed by the dancing public with the risk that the originator doesnt get a fair payback for all the work put in ...

I find that a worrying sentiment. Professional instructors have the right to earn a fair crust from what they do ... Alas, in this cruel hard capitalistic world no-one has a "right" to earn a fair crust for un-contracted work that they do. Just take a trip to the nearest pound shop, look at the imported goods, and get some idea what some workers earn.

We could have participants on courses signing agreements not to teach the moves that they have learned, but I doubt it would be enforcable.

Perhaps we could switch off all the lights when people perform workshop moves?

MartinHarper
29th-August-2004, 03:06 PM
In business the law, as applied, is mainly what matters. Ethics are only a promotional tool.

... well, even if you believe that, ethics still matter. A dance instructor who behaves in a manner perceived as unethical by the paying public might well lose customers. Gus is right to be concerned to act ethically.

Gadget
29th-August-2004, 05:57 PM
What does concern me, ~snip~ is that instructors have to accept that all tehir hard work can just get subsumed by the dancing public with the risk that the originator doesnt get a fair payback for all the work put in
Does any teacher get a "fair payback"? In schools, colleges and universitys, people teach skills that enable others to go and earn more than the teachers do. Where is the "payback"? Outside of this, there are courses to learn business practices that will increase your earnings; do the tutors recieve any "payback" when the skills are used?

As a MJ teacher, you are expected to teach MJ. What the pupil does with this kowledge after the fact is not really relevant, is it?

bigdjiver
29th-August-2004, 06:20 PM
... well, even if you believe that, ethics still matter. A dance instructor who behaves in a manner perceived as unethical by the paying public might well lose customers. Gus is right to be concerned to act ethically. I hope I am not encouraging anybody to act unethically. It is not how I live.
There are many people who do something for love, and then try to turn it into a business. I have been there. After business had eaten my home I did an aptitude test. It said "You are very intelligent, and very honest. Do NOT go into business. Your group has the highest failure rate, bar none.".
I am trying, as best I can, to warn anyone who is thinking of going into business not to expect ethical behaviour from competitors, and, if my experience is anything to go by, not even to expect legal, or even smart, behaviour from them.
There is a ancient tale about a scorpion who persuades a turtle to ferry it across the river. Half way across the scorpion stings it. The turtle asks why it did it, because now it will die too. The scorpion replies "Because it is my nature".
There are the ultra-competitive in business who will act in a way that kills them too.

bigdjiver
29th-August-2004, 06:27 PM
Does any teacher get a "fair payback"? In schools, colleges and universitys, people teach skills that enable others to go and earn more than the teachers do. Where is the "payback"? As most teachers will tell you, and I suspect that you know, that is part of the real payback. Money should be only a part of the motivation to teach.

Outside of this, there are courses to learn business practices that will increase your earnings; do the tutors recieve any "payback" when the skills are used?

As a MJ teacher, you are expected to teach MJ. What the pupil does with this kowledge after the fact is not really relevant, is it? Except that if you see them on a stage collecting a trophy, or even just enjoying themselves in the dance, there is the warm glow of a job well done.

Gus
29th-August-2004, 09:52 PM
As most teachers will tell you, and I suspect that you know, that is part of the real payback. Money should be only a part of the motivation to teach.
Well said :waycool: I think there are very few MJ teacher who do what they purely for the cash ... the only ones who make any money in this business are franchisees who own several clubs and event promoters :sick:


As a MJ teacher, you are expected to teach MJ. What the pupil does with this kowledge after the fact is not really relevant, is it?
Didnt explain myself clearly before. I think there is great pride to be had in seeing the content of your workshop/lessons taken to heart by dancers and even shown to their mates. The core point I was making (and Mikey too I think) is when a sizeable piece of a workshop is 'borrowed' by someone else purely for their financial gain. I fully aknowledge that there is little that can be done about it ... but its just not cricket! :mad:

An earlier point I made is that the true innovators probably deserve more credit. They lay the foundations upon whoch mere mortals instructors like myself can use as a platgform to develop our own ideas. There is a Confucious type phrase that says "We stand on the shoulders of those who came befoer us". How true ... my UCP lessons are based on N&Ns Blues, my Club Jive workshops were inspired by Dan Baines, many of my competiton moves (for what they were worth) came from C&J and NZ ... I know of a number of Advanced Workshops that owe their existance to Amir and V&L. We need MORE innovators /... and we need a way to recompense them more .... any ideas???

MartinHarper
30th-August-2004, 12:24 AM
Isaac Newton: If I have seen further than other men, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.

Gadget
30th-August-2004, 09:11 AM
As most teachers will tell you, and I suspect that you know, that is part of the real payback. Money should be only a part of the motivation to teach.
Well said I think there are very few MJ teacher who do what they purely for the cash ... the only ones who make any money in this business are franchisees who own several clubs and event promoters
~snip~The core point I was making is when a sizeable piece of a workshop is 'borrowed' by someone else purely for their financial gain.
But it's not: it's "borrowed" because it's good. It's borrowed because that teacher wants to get that same 'pride' from his students.

If "I think there is great pride to be had in seeing the content of your workshop/lessons taken to heart by dancers and even shown to their mates.", then shouldn't the original source feel even greater pride that the teachings are spreading with such vigour? Reaching a much wider audience? Does it matter that they are not credited? Isn't it the "I taught that" pride when viewing dancers enough?

Gus
30th-August-2004, 09:27 AM
If "I think there is great pride to be had in seeing the content of your workshop/lessons taken to heart by dancers and even shown to their mates.", then shouldn't the original source feel even greater pride that the teachings are spreading with such vigour? Reaching a much wider audience? Does it matter that they are not credited? Isn't it the "I taught that" pride when viewing dancers enough?

And I suppose J K Rowling felt similar 'pride' when her book's contents were 'borrowed' by others trying to make fast buck off all her hard work? :sick:

CJ
30th-August-2004, 09:37 AM
And I suppose J K Rowling felt similar 'pride' when her book's contents were 'borrowed' by others trying to make fast buck off all her hard work? :sick:

Gus,

Not like you mate but DREADFUL example. Rowling is neither a teacher or a dancer, so her relevance is........?

The pertinence to this argument is................?

:devil:

Dreadful Scathe
30th-August-2004, 09:57 AM
Not like you mate but DREADFUL example.

Well excuse ME :)

Gus
30th-August-2004, 10:01 AM
Gus,

Not like you mate but DREADFUL example. Rowling is neither a teacher or a dancer, so her relevance is........?

The pertinence to this argument is................?

Intellectual material / hard work being used by A.N.Other for personal gain ... Was merely illustrating the basic principle ... would it have been better if I'd used Tony Robbins as an example?

OK ... imaginary situation ... Frank developes a sophisticated 4 hour workshops of the timing, application and combination of combs ... he provides a video, notes and spends 2 weeks (when he should have been on Holiday) putting it all together. One of the students on the course is actualy a LeSwingRocJive instructor who then uses all the above material to teach the workshop for a fat fee in Manchester. Now ... just how full of pride do you think Franck would be?

CJ
30th-August-2004, 10:11 AM
OK ... imaginary situation ... Frank developes a sophisticated...

Will NEVER happen :eek:

Gadget
30th-August-2004, 10:29 AM
And I suppose J K Rowling felt similar 'pride' when her book's contents were 'borrowed' by others trying to make a fast buck off all her hard work? :sick:
No, but no-one is copying entire cabaret's and pawning them off as their own, are they? {are they :what:?}

I assume that she feels a certain satisfaction in the upsurge of all things "magical", kids reading more, and less stigma about children wearing glasses.

It is the influence rather than the exact specifics; when "plagerising" another workshop for your own, I would assume that the main thing that comes through is the influence: you may have different things to point out on the moves: you may have subtally different ways of moveing: you may change the timing here and there: but is is highly unlikley that you could teach the exact same workshop in the exact same way with exactly the same results.

I would hope that workshops are crafted arround specific themes and each area has points that you take care to note/highlight. If specific teaching "highlights" from a workshop are taken out of context, they may loose a lot of their relevance; so, does it really matter?
And what if someone likes the majority of a workshop enough to re-teach it, but has some ideas of their own that they think would make it better? A different angle on the same material. There could be just as much work in doing this as there was in the creation of the original workshop in the first place.

Franck
30th-August-2004, 10:31 AM
OK ... imaginary situation ... Frank developes a sophisticated 4 hour workshops of the timing, application and combination of combs ... he provides a video, notes and spends 2 weeks (when he should have been on Holiday) putting it all together. One of the students on the course is actualy a LeSwingRocJive instructor who then uses all the above material to teach the workshop for a fat fee in Manchester. Now ... just how full of pride do you think Franck would be?Ok, I was going to stay out of this particular circular argument, but since I have now been brought in :wink:
In the above imaginary example, Franck would be very proud, if my workshop was deemed so good that someone else wanted to use the material, then I would be happy. In fact, I would be more worried about them using my name to sell the workshop, so depending on the person concerned, it is very possible I would rather *not* be credited.
I understand your frustration Gus, but ultimately I agree with the 'standing on the shoulders of giants' comments. I don't claim any of what I teach is original, a lot of it was taught to me by great dancers / teachers, some of it I discovered all by myself, but most teachers worth their salt would stumble upon similar moves / techniques given enough experience.
I also positively encourage all my teachers to attend workshops / week-enders and be inspired, and eventually copy some of the best practise they notice. This is how standards have improved up in Scotland, and it would be churlish (and un-necessary) to start listing all sources / credits.
The ethics debate only comes into it when people deliberately and pro-actively mislead their class, either by:

- asserting that all the stuff they teach is their own original creation and that other teachers are cheap imitators.

or by

- using the name and goodwill of 'star' (shoudl that be A-list?) teachers to somehow enhance their own workshops' standing, as if some of the magic might rub off...

Intellectual material / hard work being used by A.N.Other for personal gain ... Was merely illustrating the basic principle ... would it have been better if I'd used Tony Robbins as an example?Still a poor example. J.K. Rowling, has the option to print millions of copies of the same work and indeed does, distributing them to the world. Any great teacher, with top material will only be able to reach a small percentage of UK dancers, so in that case, it would be a shame if his techniques weren't spread by other teachers. Short of starting a training academy, I agree with Bigdjiver that it is for the greater good.

Gadget
30th-August-2004, 10:40 AM
Intellectual material / hard work being used by A.N.Other for personal gain
Perhaps we need a non-disclosure {term?} agreement when you sign up for a workshop:
"I agree that the contents of this workshop, in whole or in a majority percentage, will not be deliberately reproduced by myself or any intermediataries for financial gain or profit without prior consent and due acknowledgement."
Signed.... (workshop attendees)

Could be used as a "signing in sheet" for workshops?

RobC
30th-August-2004, 11:14 AM
Perhaps we need a non-disclosure {term?} agreement when you sign up for a workshop:
"I agree that the contents of this workshop, in whole or in a majority percentage, will not be deliberately reproduced by myself or any intermediataries for financial gain or profit without prior consent and due acknowledgement."
Signed.... (workshop attendees)

Could be used as a "signing in sheet" for workshops?
And how exactly would you police this ? A completely pointless exercise. I'm sure I remember another discussion somewhere else on the forum about 'intellectual property' and 'copyrighting moves' (any moderator want to provide a link ?) and the overwhelming agreement was that is not possible to copyright individual moves and call them your own, and even with a full choreographed routine, legally it is not practically possible to prevent people from copying it.

Besides, isn't there some kind of non-disclosure statement you agree to when you sign your Ceroc membership ? :devil: I'm sure SpinDr can fill you in on this - he seems to take great pride in having kept all the membership signup sheets with all their draconian and impractical and unenforcable statements.

MartinHarper
30th-August-2004, 11:37 AM
Besides, isn't there some kind of non-disclosure statement you agree to when you sign your Ceroc membership?

I believe they dropped it. I didn't see anything NDA-like when I picked up my card. I'm not a lawyer, but I recall NDAs are based on trade secret legislation, so wouldn't apply to anything you're expecting folks to perform in public the following night.

spindr
30th-August-2004, 12:16 PM
Hmmm, couple of comments:

1. If Franck teaches a workshop on combs -- then I hope that he credits "Andy Galloway" -- who's be the earliest reference [1988] that I have to the move by that name -- unless others have an earlier one :) Though some might claim it's the same as a salsa "hairbrush".

2. I believe that there's an excellent article that mentions jive NDAs here (http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/WhatIsModernJive.html). :)

SpinDr.

bigdjiver
30th-August-2004, 12:55 PM
And I suppose J K Rowling felt similar 'pride' when her book's contents were 'borrowed' by others trying to make fast buck off all her hard work? :sick:And I wonder what she felt when she got threatened with an action for plagiarism?

"In Stouffer's The Legend of Rah and the Muggles, which features a character named Larry Potter, the muggles are little people who care for two orphaned boys who magically turn their dark homeland into a happy place. "

Ms. Stouffer lost - she did protest too much, and got fined for a dodgy recounting of the facts, but I know how I would feel if I had written "Larry Potter" and "Muggles".

DangerousCurves
30th-August-2004, 11:10 PM
No, but no-one is copying entire cabaret's and pawning them off as their own, are they? {are they :what:?}
Sadly,yes. Mikey started this thread after some people who did his Strictly Sinful class at Camber phoned him just a few weeks later to say that they had gone to another teachers class who had "taught" the exact same choreographed routine (same steps in the same order), to the same music and had even had his demonstrator dress in the same way!

He had billed it as his own class - as part of his "novel idea" for a fun and naughty night.

Incidently - the dancers who told Mikey were very unhappy... and felt cheated by the copy-cat teacher. I suspect he made a good fat fee out of the evening though.... unethical? DAMN RIGHT!!! :angry:

Gus
31st-August-2004, 12:19 AM
No, but no-one is copying entire cabaret's and pawning them off as their own, are they? {are they :what:?}
Sadly,yes. Mikey started this thread after some people who did his Strictly Sinful class at Camber phoned him just a few weeks later to say that they had gone to another teachers class who had "taught" the exact same choreographed routine (same steps in the same order), to the same music and had even had his demonstrator dress in the same way!

He had billed it as his own class - as part of his "novel idea" for a fun and naughty night.

Incidently - the dancers who told Mikey were very unhappy... and felt cheated by the copy-cat teacher. I suspect he made a good fat fee out of the evening though.... unethical? DAMN RIGHT!!! :angry:

And so the debate comes the full circle.......

Lounge Lizard
31st-August-2004, 08:56 AM
I started teaching Drops & Seducers in the 90's cos the local clubs (Ceroc & Leroc) refused to teach them on the basis they were too dangerous

I thought the danger lie in dancers working it out for themselves and often saw many examples of scary moves and a high risk of injury on the dancefloor of our local venues

I had no source to learn the drops and seducers, I had no workshops I could attend, I took ideas from a few Salsa & lindy video's then developed a few of my own moves.
Along the way I came up with many new ideas (a few good, lots not so good) and was shown various moves developed by other dancers.

At the time I belived many of my moves were new and original, I soon realised that most has been done before somewhere by someone, it is just I was unaware of it.

When I taught my first class at Camber (which was one of my all time high's) I was SO happy to see the dancers using and sharing the moves.

About two weeks after I got a call from a dancer who had seen one of the Camber moves taught at Ceroc and the teacher claimed it was theirs.

Teaching the moves is great - that's why we put them in the public domain but if you know the source where YOU THE TEACHER got it from why not give credit.

I do it, Viktor, Gus, Nigel and many other's do it.

The main thing that has annoyed me is a well known teacher on the MJ circuit, taking meticulous notes throughout my classes/workshops, running off to learn the moves THEN undercutting me to get workshop bookings that I had been asked to do, (It happend twice in any area where this teacher is well known and I am/was an unknown) that is the business side of MJ, if others can earn an easy buck from your ideas they will.

Simon Selmon and others were at a weekend Lindy camp, late into the night the DJ slowed the music down and they started dancing (what we now call) the Blues, one of the old dancers from way back pre 1940's saw it and said "hey we used to dance like that when I was a lad" just another re-cycled dance style.
Simon told this story at a blues workshop
Peter