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Missy D
18th-February-2004, 01:28 AM
Just got in from dancing I now stink of 10 different aftershaves have the smell of body odour on my shoulders and can still smell garlic from the last man i danced with. Why do i bother having a shower. Maybe tomorrow i will go to the gym, not shower have a curry not clean my teeth and then go dancing seems all the rage here in London.

ChrisA
18th-February-2004, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by Missy D
Just got in from dancing I now stink of 10 different aftershaves have the smell of body odour on my shoulders and can still smell garlic from the last man i danced with. Why do i bother having a shower. Maybe tomorrow i will go to the gym, not shower have a curry not clean my teeth and then go dancing seems all the rage here in London.
Where was that? If Hipsters, then you had the misfortune to be dancing with the wrong blokes.

With stinkers, yankers and perverts, it's very simple....

Just say no !!

Chris

Missy D
18th-February-2004, 01:42 AM
Yes twas hipsters

ChrisA
18th-February-2004, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by Missy D
Yes twas hipsters
Well on behalf of those of us blokes who don't eat garlic before dancing, don't use a million gallons of smellies, do shower, do clean teeth, wear clean clothes, change shirts, etc, etc, all I can ask is...

... please don't give up the search for us. :flower:

Chris, death to stinkers, yankers and perverts.

Divissima
18th-February-2004, 01:55 AM
Missy D - hope to get to meet you next time you're at Hipsters. It's always so difficult to meet the other women, though, don't you find?

I had to employ emergency tactics tonight in order to avoid dancing with a stinker. Nice man, but *phew*...

It'a real struggle to grab the fragrant/good 'uns on a Tuesday night - I practically had to chase Chris half the length of a room to get a dance :what: :wink:

ChrisA
18th-February-2004, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by Divissima
I practically had to chase Chris half the length of a room to get a dance :what: :wink:

Sorry I didn't see you earlier... I was looking for you...

:blush: :flower:

Divissima
18th-February-2004, 02:04 AM
's all right.... keeps me fit :wink:
It was soooooooooooooooo worth the chase :waycool:

ChrisA
18th-February-2004, 02:08 AM
Originally posted by Divissima
It was soooooooooooooooo worth the chase :waycool: ....... :yeah:

And for me :flower:

jivecat
18th-February-2004, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
.

With stinkers, yankers and perverts, it's very simple....

Just say no !!

Chris

But you can't always tell until you've already said yes!

jivecat
18th-February-2004, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by Divissima
It's always so difficult to meet the other women, though, don't you find?



But thoroughly worthwhile when you do. I don't think I hardly spoke to any of the women for the first 6 months, it was like one half of the room had been blacked out! I didn't want it to be that way, it was just a product of the Ceroc set-up. I find sitting in those endless lines a great opportunity for some light chat. And if you don't meet the women where could you get the opportunity for those "Is it just me or do you also find............" conversations which can be so reassuring! What do men talk to each other about at Ceroc, I wonder? (Do I really want to know the answer to this question? Nooooooo!)

ChrisA
18th-February-2004, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by jivecat
But you can't always tell until you've already said yes!
True, but you don't have to put up with a whole dance, though.

I truly believe that a sea-change in dance-floor culture, where the girls didn't put up with as much stinking, yanking and perving would bring about some very positive benefits:

- the girls who get a big shock when they turn up as beginners and get perved at, never to return, wouldn't be put off. And yes, there are quite a few of these.

- the offenders would be more likely to get the message more quickly if people just didn't dance with the whiffy and/or pervy ones

In general, I believe that MJ culture is far too tolerant, accepting even, of weird people whose behaviour would not be acceptable in other contexts.

I've talked about this on other threads, but there is an implied contract on the dancefloor, that the standard "you should accept when asked to dance" does not really allow for. It goes like this:

If a guy asks you to dance, ladies, and you graciously accept, then he shall not:

- stink
- pull your arms off or dislocate your shoulders
- feel you up


If a guy does any of these things, he's broken the implied contract, and you shouldn't feel you have to dance with him.

Chris

Bill
18th-February-2004, 12:29 PM
Unfortunate for the men ( and women) who might suffer from BO or excessive sweat production but most, I would hope, will have showered before the class - but some have to come straight from work and so washing and changing can be a problem.

This has been discussed on a few threads and some tactful 'advice' seems the best way forward.I don't use deodorants, anti-perspirants or after shave and am lucky I suppose that I don't sweat a great deal - except in very hot and poorly ventilated rooms.

Some dancers may be unaware of their 'problem' but as we've said before - there's a difference between dancing with someone at the end of the evening who is dripping and sweaty after a long night and someone who arrives already hot, sweaty and rather smelly.

jivecat
18th-February-2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA

In general, I believe that MJ culture is far too tolerant, accepting even, of weird people whose behaviour would not be acceptable in other contexts.

Chris


Would you be promoting an intolerant culture then? I'm beginning to feel nervous already!

While I'm not denying that the 3 cardinal sins which you mention do exist within the Ceroc world I think it's essential to keep a sense of proportion about it.

1. Smells. Subjective, I know, but I think the vast majority of people smell O.K. I've certainly had the experience of going home smelling of 10 different types of aftershave etc but whenever the subject has come under discussion it seems to me that ladies laugh ruefully about it and dismiss it as being part of the errm, magic of Ceroc. I certainly wouldn't want people to be hounded
because they forgot their deodorant/ couldn't find a clean shirt/ had a curry at lunchtime. Ceroc is an athletic pursuit, I expect people to sweat and am not offended by it. In 2.5 years of dancing I can only think of 1 or 2 occasions where someone smelled bad enough as to justify the kind of exclusion tactics which you advocate.

2. Pervs. Ditto- I just haven't found it a problem, though maybe I just ain't worth perving at (Aaww!). The subtleties and degrees of perving have been discussed on another thread but I can only think of 2 occasions where I thought the mark had been wildly overstepped and even then I felt amused rather than threatened.

3. Yankers. Now I think the incidence of this is a bit higher. Possibly as high as one per evening of Ceroc. But if I like the bloke as a person I would still be inclined to be tolerant. And even if dancing with such people is uncomfortable/not enjoyable I've never suffered any lasting harm from it - it's only one dance after all. I'd welcome suggestions from other ladies on how to tactfully deal with leaders who do this out of ignorance as I think this would be a more constructive approach to the problem.

Dance floors are scary enough places as it is; personally, I support Ceroc's etiquette mantra that you should accept all offers of dances, although a polite and friendly refusal with good reason would be acceptable. As for walking off the floor in the middle of a dance I think that would be the gravest discourtesy only justifiable in extreme circumstances. Feeling somebody up would come under this category, forgetting to put on deodorant certainly wouldn't.

If MJ is too tolerant & accepting then long may it continue!

ChrisA
18th-February-2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by jivecat
I certainly wouldn't want people to be hounded
because they forgot their deodorant/ couldn't find a clean shirt/ had a curry at lunchtime.I'm not advocating hounding anyone.

In 2.5 years of dancing I can only think of 1 or 2 occasions where someone smelled bad enough as to justify the kind of exclusion tactics which you advocate.
Sure - I'm not saying it's common for it to be that bad. All I'm saying is that if it is, you shouldn't feel obliged to dance with them.

2. Pervs. Ditto- I just haven't found it a problem, though maybe I just ain't worth perving at (Aaww!).
(snip)
the mark had been wildly overstepped and even then I felt amused rather than threatened.The pervs target the new beginners and the younger girls - who tend to be among the less confident ones. I assure you the effect is not amusement.

Again, it's not frequent, but a couple of pervs hanging around at a venue can do a lot of damage. Again, all I'm suggesting is that ladies shouldn't feel obliged to dance with anyone they feel is creepy.


3. Yankers. Now I think the incidence of this is a bit higher. Possibly as high as one per evening of Ceroc. But if I like the bloke as a person I would still be inclined to be tolerant.
Again - totally agree. I'm not talking so much about the guys who aren't very experienced and occasionally pull you awkwardly. I get pulled about all the time by ladies in the same category - and I'll still dance happily with most of them. I'm talking more about the ones that are experienced enough to know better, yet think leading is about forcing.

Someone quite close to me had her ribs bruised quite badly by one such - it took a month to recover.

Again, all I'm saying is that you shouldn't feel obliged to dance with them. Dance should be fun, not where you run the gauntlet of injury just by accepting a dance.


As for walking off the floor in the middle of a dance I think that would be the gravest discourtesy only justifiable in extreme circumstances. Feeling somebody up would come under this category, forgetting to put on deodorant certainly wouldn't.
I think we probably don't disagree on any of this - maybe you've just read more into my post than I actually said.

My take on this comes from knowing of quite a few girls who were turned permanently off Ceroc by pervs that hit on them and grossed them out on their first night, by yankers who apply so much force that they hurt people, and by a very few stinkers that make me feel nauseous if they're nearby - and I'm not even close enough to be dancing with them.

I have witnessed so many ladies with the fixed "grin and bear it" look on their faces, followed by the relief when it's over, who seem to feel that they have to even accept a second dance with the same person.

All I'm saying is, there is no stigma in declining to dance in those circumstances.

Chris

Divissima
18th-February-2004, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Jivecat:
But thoroughly worthwhile when you do. I don't think I hardly spoke to any of the women for the first 6 months, it was like one half of the room had been blacked out! I didn't want it to be that way, it was just a product of the Ceroc set-up. I find sitting in those endless lines a great opportunity for some light chat. I couldn't agree more - it is great to get to know the other ladies. I only really started making progress on this when I went to a ceroc venue where loads of us went on for a drink after the end of a night. Kent House is a great place for this because there are comfy booths for sitting and chatting when not involved in freestyle. And I'm always accosting other ladies to ask where they got their lovely tops/shoes...


What do men talk to each other about at Ceroc, I wonder? (Do I really want to know the answer to this question? Nooooooo!)The mind boggles! I'm thinking it probably isn't tops 'n' shoes - perhaps cars...ipod...football...
Only kidding, guys :hug: :wink:

spindr
18th-February-2004, 01:54 PM
Well, fresh sweat doesn't smell.

Personally I don't think it takes too much effort to be reasonably fragrant for dancing. Avoid the lasagne / curry at lunch. Minimum effort to change at least a shirt/top. If you have to go directly from work then it isn't difficult to get a brief wash either at work or at the venue's facilities. If even that's too difficult to arrange, then deowipes / baby wet ones :)

I remember one venue that used to occasionally suggest the virtues of soap and water in it's newsletters :)

SpinDr.

JamesGeary
18th-February-2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA

In general, I believe that MJ culture is far too tolerant, accepting even, of weird people whose behaviour would not be acceptable in other contexts.



ODA commentary >

So you would rather go from the

'you have to dance with anyone who asks you'
culture that is so promoted, to the

'only dance with people you want to dance with'

culture.


It then depends on what critieria you use for selection and to what standard you demand.

Everyone smells slightly, everyone has poor things they do with respect dance kinesthetics (especially beginners), some people don't provide any resistance through the arms, and everyone has different ranges of body distance they feel comfortable, some people have dance backgrounds that mean they do things funny, some look funny, often people dress badly, some people don't even put gel in their hair. Its more painful on my eyes than your nose.

Its only fun when you're on one side of the fence. Change the standards and its no fun at all.

ChrisA
18th-February-2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
So you would rather go from the

'you have to dance with anyone who asks you'
culture that is so promoted, to the

'only dance with people you want to dance with'

culture.

No, I would not.

And you're taking me out of the context of the rest of the post, which as I've now explained at some length is about not feeling obliged to dance in certain relatively extreme circumstances. It is not about some draconian alternative reality not invented by me.

When I talk about the MJ world being too accepting, I am talking about the difficulty ladies (mostly) have in avoiding the people that make for a particularly unpleasant time out there.

It would be no less welcoming towards the vast majority, to be completely intolerant of the real extremes.

James, with all respect (and just a little envy :devil: ), you get to dance with the cream of MJ dancers wherever you go. You're stronger than most of the people you dance with, so you can more easily limit the effects of the lady yankers, if indeed you dance with any of them. And you are confident enough, I have no doubt, to know exactly how to handle any uninvited female grincers out there. :wink:

So I find this just a touch rich coming from you :whistle:

Chris :nice:

JamesGeary
18th-February-2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
...to be completely intolerant of the real extremes...


I still read your post as 'dance with who you want to dance with'.

Too much perfume annoys the hell out of me, but many people get annoyed if there is too little. Too little resistance frustrates me, but some people get annoyed at too much. Unbelievably bad dress sense irritates me, but reasonable people dont care.

What you call extremes is dependant on the mind of the person doing the calling. Hang around Calcutta in India for a few months then come back here, hehehe. Everyone'll smell gorgeous.

I guess you have a point, its not about one persons alternative draconian reality, but what the majority thinks, and its unreasonable to expect everyone to become more tolerant. And impossible.

Maybe we could do like the Roman senate used to do, and once a year everyone votes on who they don't like the most, and they get exiled for a year.

Rich James

ChrisA
18th-February-2004, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
What you call extremes is dependant on the mind of the person doing the calling.

Well of course, this is true, and we all exercise some level of "dance with who you want to dance with".

Personally I exercise very little in the way of exclusion. I spend much of my time dancing with beginners, and it's exceptionally unusual for me to turn anyone down if they ask me to dance.

Examples of what I'd call extremes (from the recent past) are:

- a bloke in his 50s pushing up against and rubbing his groin persistently against a 19 year old girl's bum, leaving her shaking and reducing her to tears in the process. (Note: even when brought up about this said effectively "I see others doing it, so why shouldn't it be Ok for me to?")

- another bloke (an experienced dancer) forcing a lady so UCP that her ribs were bruised and took a month to recover. (Note: this individual has been banned from numerous Ceroc venues.)

- another bloke who stank so badly that the air around his chair at the side of the dance floor was still horrible even minutes after he was no longer there. And dancing near him made me feel physically sick.

One last time: all I'm saying is that ladies should not feel obliged to dance with such people.

Chris

jivecat
18th-February-2004, 03:17 PM
[i]Originally posted by ChrisA
I think we probably don't disagree on any of this - maybe you've just read more into my post than I actually said.

This is very civilised! Thanks for your friendly response and for not taking offence. Also it's good to know the chances are you'll accept should I ever ask you to dance.


I have witnessed so many ladies with the fixed "grin and bear it" look on their faces, followed by the relief when it's over...................

Yup, that's me, sometimes. Perhaps I really should take that assertiveness training course.

ChrisA
18th-February-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by jivecat
This is very civilised! Thanks for your friendly response and for not taking offence.
:flower:

Also it's good to know the chances are you'll accept should I ever ask you to dance.Should the opportunity arise, and I haven't, through some dreadful omission, already asked you, please do.

:flower: :flower:

:waycool:

jivecat
18th-February-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
What you call extremes is dependant on the mind of the person doing the calling. Hang around Calcutta in India for a few months then come back here, hehehe. Everyone'll smell gorgeous.




Also depends on the social norm which has changed through history. We in the early 21st century are obsessed with cleanliness, germs, washing, smells & contamination, facilitated largely by improvements in plumbing.

Mr Darcy would probably have smelt like a tomcat and Miss Eliza Bennett like an old vixen but presumably they barely noticed 'cos it would have been the norm in those pre-deodorant days. Although, on second thoughts, maybe that's why he refused to dance with her!

HeatherX
18th-February-2004, 05:22 PM
New to forum, though not brand new to dancing....

The problem of stinky pervy guys is something that arises in all corners of life, I suppose.....I do find it offensive to smell stale sweat on a guy (fresh sweat is no problem!) and there is one guy I occasionally dance with (because I never say no!) who always smells bad, and who always makes a point of asking beginners and teaching them some UCP moves. He is well known for it. I am pretty certain it puts some of them off ever coming again, but his behaviour is never quite bad enough to have him 'banned'.

I think the price of dealing with this would be too high. We'd have to have rules and regulations and restrictions....most people are clean, non-pervy and smell just fine after all!

Most of the time you can see the known-to-be-smelly ones coming into your vicinty and you can pretend to be going to the loo or the bar - no need for a show down:)

JamesGeary
18th-February-2004, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
- another bloke who stank so badly that the air around his chair at the side of the dance floor was still horrible even minutes after he was no longer there. And dancing near him made me feel physically sick.


How about if their outfit is so lurid that it burns an imprinted image on my retina for the next 20 minutes? At least you can run away from the smelly one. But retina burn, what can you do.

ChrisA
18th-February-2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by JamesGeary
How about if their outfit is so lurid that it burns an imprinted image on my retina for the next 20 minutes? At least you can run away from the smelly one. But retina burn, what can you do.
Only one of us is exaggerating, honest.

:nice:

Chris

PS Anyway, I thought Lily looked gorgeous last year at Blackpool :wink:

ChrisA
18th-February-2004, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by HeatherX
I think the price of dealing with this would be too high. We'd have to have rules and regulations and restrictions....

No we wouldn't. We just need a few people who are prepared to have a quiet word with some of them, instead of perpetuating their illusion that all is well, while actually people are talking behind their back about how awful they smell, or dancing with them and pretending nothing's wrong.

Suppose it was you?

How would you feel if one day you discovered that people were pretending to be on their way to the loo or the bar, all the while avoiding you because you smelled bad?

Me - I'd be absolutely mortified, and might not be able to carry on dancing.

I know how difficult it is to say anything, and how difficult it is to move past that difficulty, but the stinkers are human beings with feelings too. I think the short, sharp pain of being told needs to be balanced against the much more enduring pain of realising that (a) there's been a long-term problem, (b) that lots of people know and (c) that lots of people have been talking/gossiping about it.

I know which pain I'd prefer if it was me, which was what enabled me to have a word with a guy not that long ago.

Chris

HeatherX
18th-February-2004, 05:50 PM
You may be right, Chris....does this quick, quiet word apply to his perving as well? I suppose it should.....

ChrisA
18th-February-2004, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by HeatherX
You may be right, Chris....does this quick, quiet word apply to his perving as well? I suppose it should.....
I think it might in some cases.

In others (the ones that cruise around the venues they haven't yet been banned from) it definitely won't - though it does result in the offenders not asking you again because they know you don't tolerate it.

In some cases I believe you just can't educate perving out of people - they are just careful not to overstep the mark, but it's still their instinct.

In others, it may well be possible to say the equivalent of "whoa there tiger", and have them respect that line in the sand with no hard feelings.

Personally I find it hard to imagine people so insensitive that they don't instinctively know what's Ok and what isn't, but are still basically decent. But I may well be wrong on that one...

General rule of thumb:

- nice guys will take the feedback on the chin, will want to be told, and will respond positively, even though it feels bad to them at the time. They will eventually appreciate the fact that someone took the trouble, and be fine.

- the nasty ones won't accept the feedback, won't change, will make excuses, will blame you, etc, etc. At the end of the day, do we really care what those particular ones feel??

Chris

Groovy Dancer
19th-February-2004, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by Divissima
The mind boggles! I'm thinking it probably isn't tops 'n' shoes - perhaps cars...iPod...football...
Only kidding, guys :hug: :wink:
:D Well i know for a fact we speak about , politics,world affairs and DIY. :yeah: :rofl:
I hope this helps

ChrisA
19th-February-2004, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by Groovy Dancer
:D Well i know for a fact we speak about , politics,world affairs and DIY.
I would like to publicly dissociate myself from the category of blokes that talk about politics, world affairs and DIY at dance nights. :really: :sick:

If I speak to a bloke at all (why would I want to :devil: , at least before the lights come up at the end??) it's usually about some gorgeous dancer, or at worst, about the night itself, or another dance night.

Just wanted to set the record straight... :waycool:

Chris

Pammy
19th-February-2004, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
I would like to publicly dissociate myself from the category of blokes that talk about politics, world affairs and DIY at dance nights. :really: :sick:

Thank goodness for that, I could never have been involved in a serious conversation with you when you were your alter-ego - The Coolster :wink: :rofl:

Pammy - or almost Pammy by the end of the night, minus three gems :grin:

ChrisA
19th-February-2004, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Pammy
when you were your alter-ego - The Coolster :wink: :rofl:

Oi !!!

What do you mean were ?????

:angry: :angry:

Pammy
19th-February-2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Oi !!!

What do you mean were ?????

:what: What...???,,,, you mean it wasn't a one off...

Take that back, it's definitely a one-off :wink: but are you planning on sporting it again? :rofl:

ChrisA
19th-February-2004, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by Pammy
Take that back, it's definitely a one-off :wink: but are you planning on sporting it again? :rofl:
You're confusing cause and effect, my dear

:waycool:

Pammy
19th-February-2004, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
You're confusing cause and effect, my dear

:waycool:

You ought to know by now, I'm always confused (or confusing) :grin:

Sheepman
19th-February-2004, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
- nice guys will take the feedback on the chin, will want to be told, and will respond positively, even though it feels bad to them at the time. They will eventually appreciate the fact that someone took the trouble, and be fine. :yeah: but don't forget that many women are inexplicably attracted to the nasty ones!


Originally posted by ChrisA
If I speak to a bloke at all (why would I want to , at least before the lights come up at the end??) it's usually about some gorgeous dancer, or at worst, about the night itself, or another dance night.
:yeah:
I said a total of zero words to all of the guys during last nights freestyle, and I think I said 5 words in total to 2 guys before the freestyle started, they were, "Hi David" (no reply, I don't think he heard me) and "Hi, how's things?", reply "Fine"
If the guys want to chat to me, they'll have to dance with me :wink:

Greg

Pammy
19th-February-2004, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
think I said 5 words in total to 2 guys before the freestyle started

I don't remember you talking much to me either, but boy, you certainly gave me a greeting to remember!!! :wink: :blush:

Sheepman
19th-February-2004, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Pammy
but boy, you certainly gave me a greeting to remember!!! :wink: :blush: Oooh err, :blush: I was hoping you wouldn't bring that up, sort of brought a new meaning to "checking out the 'sters!" :blush: :flower:

Greg

Pammy
19th-February-2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
I was hoping you wouldn't bring that up

Sorry, but I am like an elephant (in more ways that one :blush: )

Bill
19th-February-2004, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Pammy
Sorry, but I am like an elephant (in more ways that one :blush: )

can't wait to dance with you then.............. do I have to hold the trunk :confused: :na:

Groovy Dancer
19th-February-2004, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
I would like to publicly dissociate myself from the category of blokes that talk about politics, world affairs and DIY at dance nights. :really: :sick:


Chris
You have alot to learn my son:rolleyes: