Feedback on recent changes

[Bigger Andy]

Hi there !

You asked for feedback on the changes to the Ceroc classes that have been implemented already this year so here goes ...

1. Appreciation.

First of all I would like to say that I appreciate that the teachers have a difficult job as they have dancers with such a wide range of ability and experience to cater for. Generally, I believe that the teachers do an excellent job.

2. The 'Warm Up'.

Currently it consists of a couple of minutes of "Salsa-like" steps. This takes place only at the start of the 'Beginners Class'. For me this is a waste of time as I normally walk about a mile to get to the class. A few extra steps make no difference. I participate in other sporting activities year-round so I understand, and partake of, the benefits of a warm-up. My feelings are that most regular dancers realise the benefits of a warm-up and already do what they feel is necessary to achieve that.

I'm not sure that having a 'Warm Up' at the start of the 'Beginners Class' is the right time for it anyway. The 'Beginners Class' is always a gentle start to the evening and the class normally starts by walking through each of the moves in turn. In other words, there is nothing too strenuous that is likely to cause anyone any problems in terms of pulled muscles etc. The evening therefore already consists of a gradual increase in the tempo which is exactly what is required.

The other aspect of the 'Warm Up' is that all the people who arrive late at the class or those that only come along for the 'Intermediate Class' miss out on it. Surely it is equally applicable to these people ?

It could perhaps be left to each persons discretion with the teacher reminding people at each class that a 'Warm Up' is recommended.

I feel that the current 'Warm Up' needs to either be developed to produce a proper 'Warm Up' or left out altogether.

I suppose that people will vote with their feet. The last couple of weeks has seen a noticeable increase in the number of people 'sitting out' the 'Warm Up'. I guess that this says it all !

3. The changed 'Beginners Moves'.

I understand that a number of the 22 'Beginners Moves' are also changing. So far, I have been taught the new 'Yoyo' where the man turns to face the lady rather than bringing her back around in front of him. I'm afraid that I can't understand the point of this as I feel that if people can do one of the moves than they can do the other.

There is also the point that all the people who only come along later in the evening for the 'Intermediate Class' are probably unaware of the changes to these moves.

Consequently a beginner will be confused when taught a move in the class only to do something different when dancing 'Freestyle'.

I understand that the 'Ladyspin' is another of the 22 'Beginners Moves' that is also changing ! This move seems to me to be so simple and basic that I can't even imagine what the change is likely to be !

It might be worthwhile renaming the moves that are being changed to avoid some of the confusion. After all, they are different moves so why not give them different names ?

4. The 25 'Classic Intermediate Moves'.

I'm not keen on the idea of doing as many as 2 of these 25 so-called 'Classic Intermediate Moves' per 'Intermediate Class'. As a 'leader', my feelings are that I want to learn as many new moves as possible to expand my repertoire. The normal situation is that during the 'Freestyle' sessions people dance each dance with a different partner. The ladies, or followers, therefore are not perhaps aware that a man, or leader, is doing the same dance with every lady that he dances with. While this is fine for the ladies it can become very boring for the man !

I have been going to Ceroc classes for nearly 2 years now and I have felt this for the entire time that I have been dancing.

I would like to see a greater variety of moves being taught rather than being restricted like this.

I feel that on the whole, the effects of these changes to the Ceroc class have the effect of bringing the overall level down for the benefit of the beginners. How do you intend to cater for the more advanced dancers who are not now being catered for so well ?

I'm afraid that this feedback may not be quite what you wanted to hear. However, it reflects my feelings. Also, from talking to fellow Ceroc dancers, I believe that my feelings also represent the feelings of many others who may be less willing to discuss how they feel. I hope that this feedback is of use to you.

What do you think ?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Bigger Andy
What do you think ?
Where do you dance, Andy? Would be interested to know where this stuff is going on... I haven't come across changes to the beginner moves - and I've never heard of "25 classic intermediate moves". Is there a list of these anywhere?

Welcome to the forum, BTW.

Chris

[Rachel]

Hi Andy - I just wanted to make a couple points, though things are a little busy at the moment, so I'll have to be brief. Anyway, teachers and many others will probably be able to give much better information than me on this subject.

Ceroc Central held a day-long meeting for crew members where the new changes were discussed and we danced through all the new intermediate moves.

We also did the warm-up - my understanding (though I may be wrong) is that it's not a warm-up in the sense you're thinking, as much a lesson in the very very basics of Ceroc. I.e. how to step back properly (ball, then heel, etc.), weight distribution, posture, etc etc. The warm up is also likely to include a minute or so on how to spin.

I think it's probably good if this enables people to get the fundamentals right more quickly. We did it for the first time at Milton Keynes on Monday, and most (though not all) people said they thought it was a good idea. And, at the end of the day, it's only a couple of minutes.

I agree with some of the changes to the beginners' moves, and disagree with other things. I like the new yoyo. I also like the new ladyspin - where, rather than the ball and socket handhold, the leader takes his left (?) hand over and takes hold of the lady's wrist or forearm to spin her. I think it feels nicer that way.

However, I'm rather sorry the wurlitzer and hatchback have been moved from the beginner to intermediate category.

I really don't see that it's a problem having different versions of the same beginner moves when freestyling - the lady should be learning to follow, so it shouldn't matter if a leader is doing the old or the new style of yoyo.

Some of the new intermediate moves are great, in my opinion - tango'esque. Some, of course, are awful - nothing but a tangle of arms and risk of broken neck to extricate yourself. I really don't see the point in moves like this which seem to be more of a puzzle solving exercise than a physical interpretation of the music. But, of course, all people like different things, and variety is what makes it all so good.

Anyway, best get back to work, but just wanted to add my thoughts.

Rachel

[Bigger Andy]

Chris,

I dance in Kent. Not too far away from you.

I have been to Ceroc classes at Canterbury, Maidstone and Rochester and I go to the monthly dances at Bromley.

The 25 so-called 'Classic Intermediate Moves' are detailed on the Ceroc Kent website at :-
http://www.cerockent.com

Apparently this all started at the beginning of this year when the 'Ceroc UK' franchise was taken over.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Where do you dance, Andy? Would be interested to know where this stuff is going on... I haven't come across changes to the beginner moves - and I've never heard of "25 classic intermediate moves". Is there a list of these anywhere?

Welcome to the forum, BTW.

Chris These changes will be Ceroc-wide, Chris, and, as far as I know, all teachers will be recommended to do a 'warm-up'. I think it's just the teachers who have a list of the classic moves, as well as lists of all the new moves. But I'm sure they'd be willing to tell you.

Don't worry, you will come across these changes very shortly!
Rachel

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Rachel
These changes will be Ceroc-wide, Chris, and, as far as I know, all teachers will be recommended to do a 'warm-up'. I think it's just the teachers who have a list of the classic moves, as well as lists of all the new moves. But I'm sure they'd be willing to tell you.

Don't worry, you will come across these changes very shortly!

I've had a look at the list of "Classics" at cerockent.com - and I agree with Andy that putting two of them into every intermediate class is a dumbing down. It's not the first stage of a cunning plan to make some money out of intermediate-level StepCheck cards, is it? :devil: )

If the "warm up" is really "basics", as you say, then I think it's a good idea - and should include a little on resistance as well - though I would predict that that won't happen, because it would be the beginning of the end of the semicircle :wink:

And then where would we be? We'd lose the manspin "signal" too, at that rate.... :devil: :devil:

I also agree with you that losing the wurlitzer and hatchback from beginners is daft - the only candidate for that I can think of is the half-windmill IMHO.

I've also been to two "Advanced" classes at two different Ceroc venues, and although they were interesting (and one of them was taught very nicely), neither could have been called advanced.

Oh well, there are obviously interesting things afoot...

Chris

[Rachel]

Originally posted by ChrisA
...If the "warm up" is really "basics", as you say, then I think it's a good idea - and should include a little on resistance as well - though I would predict that that won't happen, because it would be the beginning of the end of the semicircle :wink:
Oh yes - resistance - forgot that - I think that might be included, too. (Agree about the semi circle. Marc, too - he just tells people to 'push away'.)


Originally posted by ChrisA
...I also agree with you that losing the wurlitzer and hatchback from beginners is daft - the only candidate for that I can think of is the half-windmill IMHO. Yep, you're right - half-windmill is being moved to intermediate as well. Forgot that too!

I don't know if it's 'dumming down' to include 2 classic intermediate moves (though I haven't really made up my mind). That still leaves 2 unprescribed moves where the teacher can be really inventive, no? And most people seem to say that more than 2 moves which are brand new to them, is too much to learn.

I would have thought that, if a guy can learn and take away 2 new moves from every class, he's doing really well. I'm impressed! Would you really want more? Does anyone remember 4 new moves?
Rachel

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Rachel
I don't know if it's 'dumming down' to include 2 classic intermediate moves (though I haven't really made up my mind). That still leaves 2 unprescribed moves where the teacher can be really inventive, no? And most people seem to say that more than 2 moves which are brand new to them, is too much to learn...
Sorry to quote myself but, actually, I've already decided to completely change my mind on this!

Not because I think it would be too much 'dumming down' to include 2 classic moves in every class. But because of the restrictiveness to the routine as a whole. I mean, if a teacher has a great routine in mind, they might not be able to do it if the moves they've chosen don't flow well with any of the 'classic' moves. And they may not be able to play around with the timing so much ... Etc etc etc.

Oh dear, the more I think about this, the more I don't like it.
R.

[Bigger Andy]

Thanks for the extra news !

I didn't know that the wurlitzer and hatchback were no longer considered to be beginners moves !

To me the point is that although you are taught a number of moves in a class, you don't necessarily like, or remember, them all. The more new moves you are taught the better as you have a bigger choice and the repertoire grows at a greater rate.

[Dan Hudson]

Hi Guys

As far as I am aware (as a Ceroc Franchisee) the 25 odd 'classic moves' that are on the website have indeed been put forward to be used.

The general idea is to assist with the transition from beg to intermediate by providing another level of moves.

I think that the main plan is ONE classic move be taught in each intermediate routine. Thus leaving the other 3 up to the teacher or franchisee should they choose to be involved.
The other three can be designed to keep the advanced dancer or those who feel they have plateaud happy.

I hope this helps.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Rachel
I would have thought that, if a guy can learn and take away 2 new moves from every class, he's doing really well. I'm impressed! Would you really want more? Does anyone remember 4 new moves?

Not necessarily for more than that night... I'll usually try and dance the whole routine a few times during freestyle, not necessarily in the same order, and if I like any of them enough I might try and remember one, or two at most.

But I'd rather have a choice of 4, than a choice of 2.

Chris

[Emma]

I'm interested to know how many people feel they are going to Intermediate classes and getting four NEW moves each and every time....

Isn't there usually at least one less complicated (or shall we call it 'classic'? :devil: ) move in most intermediate routines?

Also, many of the 'advanced' dancers (how I hate that label) on the forum have been vigorous in their arguments in favour of doing the beginners class, not only from the point of view of encouraging beginners - but also because they feel it improves their dancing. Does this not apply equally to a core of intermediate moves?

:grin:

[Rachel]

Originally posted by ChrisA
...But I'd rather have a choice of 4, than a choice of 2...

Originally posted by Bigger Andy
...more new moves you are taught the better as you have a bigger choice... Good points!

Thanks, Dan, for clarifying about the one move.
R.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Dan Hudson
As far as I am aware (as a Ceroc Franchisee) the 25 odd 'classic moves' that are on the website have indeed been put forward to be used.

The general idea is to assist with the transition from beg to intermediate by providing another level of moves.

Well, IMHO this is missing the point completely.

The thing that new beginners find most difficult after six classes is not stepping through moves in a class.

Particularly for the guys, it's linking them together in freestyle.

A substantial proportion of beginner ladies, led well, can cope with most of the beginners moves, and indeed many of the easier intermediate ones, within a very short time.

However many of the guys, after only six classes, can cope with the classes easily enough, but are still pretty clueless when trying to link them together.

For some time at Twickenham, the more experienced taxis have been running what we call "Improvers" classes, where we focus on how to freestyle, as well as some basics of lead/follow and spinning.

I've posted elsewhere on the format of my improvers classes, but I'll dig it out if anyone's interested.

Chris

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Emma
...Isn't there usually at least one less complicated (or shall we call it 'classic'? :devil: ) move in most intermediate routines?... I'm all for keeping things simple - and that's just as a follower!! The thing is, the way we (that is 'we' as in 'Marc', or 'at MK') teach the intermediates, is to make it more of a 'routine' than 4 independent moves which just happen to be joined together.

I'm not sure if that makes any sense. Do you know what I mean? But my point is that Marc's intermediate routine will often include a beginner move as one of the 4, or variation on the step across or something - just because they're good linking moves and keep the thing flowing as a whole.

So I can certainly see what Chris and Andy are saying about 'the more choice the better', since you're bound not to like all of the 4 moves taught. But I don't really like to think of the intermediate class as just 'a collection' of moves.

BTW Chris - yes please, I'd love to see your improvers class format, ifyou can find it.
R.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Emma
I'm interested to know how many people feel they are going to Intermediate classes and getting four NEW moves each and every time....It's rare... and getting rarer. But after hundreds of repetitions, I seem finally to be remembering one or two new ones occasionally :clap:

Isn't there usually at least one less complicated (or shall we call it 'classic'? :devil: ) move in most intermediate routines?
I would say so, yes.

Also, many of the 'advanced' dancers (how I hate that label) on the forum have been vigorous in their arguments in favour of doing the beginners class, not only from the point of view of encouraging beginners - but also because they feel it improves their dancing. Does this not apply equally to a core of intermediate moves?
I certainly wouldn't class myself as an advanced dancer, but I do get quite a bit out of the beginners classes. Not so much in how to dance beginners moves any more, but how to dance them in such a way as to teach them without having to say anything.

Chris

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Rachel
BTW Chris - yes please, I'd love to see your improvers class format, ifyou can find it.Easier to find than I thought... it was here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163&perpage=10&pagenumber=3), 3rd one down.

Chris

[Emma]

Originally posted by ChrisA
It's rare... and getting rarer. But after hundreds of repetitions, I seem finally to be remembering one or two new ones occasionally
Ooh no, I didn't mean *learn* four new moves, I meant do people feel that each week there are four moves that they have never done before. :grin:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Emma
Ooh no, I didn't mean *learn* four new moves, I meant do people feel that each week there are four moves that they have never done before. :grin:
That's how I interpreted it... not often these days.

But whereas at one time I could recognise that I'd done it before, I couldn't necessarily remember how to lead it in freestyle. Now, though, mostly it does seem easier to absorb things in a usable way.

Chris

[TheTramp]

Feedback :D

Okie. I don't like the warm-up idea. When I went to salsa classes, I sat out the warm up that they did. As someone said (and I've heard a teacher or two say it already as well), the entire beginners class is a warm-up. It really doesn't start particularly strenuously does it. However, if it's going to happen, it's going to happen. What I wouldn't like to see however, is teachers standing on the stage exhorting people to join in. I've seen this happen in one teachers classes already, where he/she stands there, and waits sometimes for a few minutes for people to join in the beginner class, telling them to hurry up. I feel that this puts pressure on people to rush, and also means that the people who are ready, are just stood there waiting. When it's time for the warm-up, just announce it, and get on with it. Let people make up their own minds about whether or not they want to do it, and if they are sitting down, or dawdling, to miss it, fair enough. Don't keep on at them to join in.

The wurlitzer was my favourite beginner move to teach and do. And I liked the hatchback too. I'm not really sure why they have been taken out, as I didn't think that they were that difficult. I've not seen a beginners class where people struggled with them to the point of not being able to complete them by the time the class finished (as distinct from those people being able to do all the other moves within the class that night), and I think that they did provide a variety in difficulty within the beginners class, which maybe helped to prepare people for an intermediate class. After all, if all you've done in beginners classes are all the very easy moves, then stepping up to an intermediate class, might come as a bit of a shock. As for removing the half windmill, fine. I don't think I've ever done the move in freestyle. Remove it altogether as far as I'm concerned.

25 'classic' intermediate moves. Sounds like there's a series of workshops there, as well as flashcards :devil: I don't particularly see a problem, or advantage in this. If you've only got to include one per class, then you'll only do each one twice a year (on average). Although, I suppose, as Rachel says, it might possibly affect the whole flow of a routine, if you have got to put in one of the classic moves. Though, I suppose that not many people would notice if you didn't actually include one on occasion (every week?) :wink:

Steve

[Rachel]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Easier to find than I thought... it was here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163&perpage=10&pagenumber=3), 3rd one down.

Chris Thanks!! Haven't read it all yet - will save it til later to be digested slowly, I think ...
R.

[Sparkle]

Ok, first post for me! I kinda like the warm-up idea, although i've only been to one class since its been brought in, so i might change my mind after tonight's class! I don't think its there to warm people up in the traditional sports sense ie. muscle warmup however i think the good thing about it is that it will help with rhythm and dancing in time to the music, which can only be a good thing.

As for new moves, i really liked the arm-jive swizzle (i think that's what its called!) that Lorna taught last week and i think the new yoyo is much easier to do.

Anyway, that's my 2-pence worth :)

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Rachel
Thanks!! Haven't read it all yet - will save it til later to be digested slowly, I think ...
R.

:blush: It was a bit rambly. The key is to get the guys thinking of moves to do depending on whether they finished the last one left to right or right to right, and to practise linking moves together while noticing which hand they end up with.

Chris

[Gus]

Originally posted by Bigger Andy
I would like to see a greater variety of moves being taught rather than being restricted like this.


To start with I'd like to say that the opinions posted so far have given some very interesting and usefull views on the changes and I think the more postings on the subject the better ........

However, as one who is often seen as having a go at Ceroc (unfairly I might venture), even I feel that Ceroc are getting a hard time over this. The current format has been around for a fair old time (10 years or so?). Its acceptance is demonstrated by the fact that 90% of the competition have adopted the same format. To change such a tried and tested formula is a brave move. As a starting point I think that all dancers have to accept that there is no way that you can satify ALL dancers in an event that is only 3 hours long yet still needs to incorporate a significant amount of freestyle.

Coming from the dance development point of view, without the benefit of seeing the new moves, I think the revised format will do a great deal to encourage new dancers to stay and mitigate the transition from beginner to intermediate.

What then for the 'improving intermediates' and advanced? Well, its often been said that there is little in the standard class format that can be provided for them ... so they can continue to do what many of them do at the moment... either stand out on the sidelines looking bored or talk inccesantly during the class(:devil: :devil: ) Seriously though ... can an occaisional advnaced class ever keep them happy. Most of these dancers just want new moves while they patently fail to ever to learn how to actually dance them!! (excuse me while I don my flame proof armour)

Ceroc have been brave enough to try to improve things ... how long before the other Jive organisation show similar foresight? However, will they innovate or simply copy?

[Dan Hudson]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Feedback :D
Although, I suppose, as Rachel says, it might possibly affect the whole flow of a routine, if you have got to put in one of the classic moves. Though, I suppose that not many people would notice if you didn't actually include one on occasion (every week?) :wink:

Steve

I think you will find that it is not a directive that you must put 1 classic move in each routine, if for instance, as Kelly does, you teach a routine to a specific track or the routine you have in mind doesn't include a classic move, its not the end of the world. It is just stated that it is prefered if a classic move is used

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Gus
Most of these dancers just want new moves while they patently fail to ever to learn how to actually dance them!! (excuse me while I don my flame proof armour)

They don't.

They just think they do.

If Ceroc taught dancing as well as moves, this common plateau would IMHO be a lot easier to get past.

There are a few hints that Ceroc may be starting, albeit a little hesitantly and patchily, to do just that.

And for that, my wholehearted support.

:cheers:

Chris

[bigdjiver]

IMO the Ceroc intermediate class was not primarily there to teach people to dance. It actually served to give people a bonding activity and act as a trailer for Intermediate workshops. Few leaders came out of that class with one new move learnt.

The "Classic" move system means that the regular attender will now have a much better chance of acquiring a repetoire sooner.

The "warm-up" is actually to teach a bit of style, weight transfer and spinning.

The Wurlitzer involved using a flat-hand, normally indicating a spin, without a spin. This confused many beginners. Good riddance. I almost never use the half-windmill.

The new Lady spin involves using the left hand to spin the lady. This less natural for me, and possibly beginners.

The introduction of common day beginners moves is also a good idea. The same beginners routine will be taught at every venue on the same day. Beginners who met at a class on the the Thursday but attended a different one on the Monday of that week will have a common experience. That will make it easier for them and for Taxi-dancers. The routines will change from one week to the next.

[Gadget]

Lisa asked for feedback on Tuesday, and I e-mailed her some thoughts on it (can't find that e-mail, so have to re-think them :sick: )

In principle, I think that the warm ups are a good idea. In execution, I think that they are poorly thought out and planned. Nothing derogitary about the execution, just the contents and over-all presentation:
- Simple side steps are a good way to introduce 'finding the rhythm', but should be presented in a way that is actually used when dancing (eg arm-jive footwork)
- Same with forward/back steps; they should be the same as used in walks.
- The emphisis should be made about small, 'natural' steps, and this could be prompted again during the beginner lesson.
- Introduction to spins and turns should be included; the way I would do it would be to turn 180º, then when partnered, have the man step in while the lady turns (back to you), and step back when they turn back to face. Again, I would remind people when doing a return during the lesson.
- I would also build these moves into a micro-routine of side/side for 2, fore/back for 2, turn, turn.
- The only thing I think the warm up lacks is the vital element of Lead/Follow: perhaps the men should go through a few beats leading the lady side/side, fore/back and mix them up so the lady has to follow.

The changing of beginner move classification: I don't really see that it makes any odds; I imagine that they are trying to make the 'beginner' moves more a true reflection on the 'basic' building blocks that the rest of the intermediate moves are constructed from. {The 'lady-spin' was taught ball&socket style on Tuesday, and it was taught in a routine with a RHwrap; two moves with very similar leads for beginners. I think that it was well thought out.}

Having a "Core" of intermediate moves I think is another way to 'standardise' the building blocks that other moves are constructed from. But I do think that it also creates a nice "improvers" level between beginners and intermediates. I don't see how this ould change any leason plans or the flow of moves taught.

[Stuart M]

From what I've seen and heard so far, my opinion is generally positive.

I haven't seen a warmup yet so I'll just say I hope it's not like a salsa one. I found that quite intimidating on the rare occasions I tried salsa. And I think newbies, particularly guys, are easily put off by this sort of thing.

The changes I've seen so far to the beginner's moves I like. Never understood why a half-windmill was in the beginner's list as it's not an easy move, in fact it's a risky move. Also, it's not much of a building block for later more advanced moves. And someone's already pointed out the logic about the flat palm in the wurlitzer. Shame about the hatchback and yo-yo changes though - that's two good opportunities for the guy to have a rest gone!

I'm wondering what this Right-handed man-spin is, however :confused:...can't say I've ever done one before!

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Stuart M
And someone's already pointed out the logic about the flat palm in the wurlitzer.
Which I fail to see, any more than I see a guy's raised right arm as being a visual signal for the manspin.

Flat palms in themselves are an indication of an impending spin only to the extent that the lead for a yoyo is the same as the lead for a hatchback.

Think of the right hand lead into the Ladies Spin. It prepares for the spin by bringing the lady on to (hopefully) her right foot, and gets her weight on to it, with her centre of gravity above it.

Now think of the so-called flick-spin out of the wurlitzer in the same way, and see that the prepare (this time for a spin to the left) needs to be led from the guy's right hand, not his left.

As DavidB pointed out a little while back, all you need to do with your left hand in the wurlitzer is to let go. All this flat palm at shoulder level business is a Ceroc stylisation, and no more.

Chris

[DavidY]

Originally posted by Stuart M
I'm wondering what this Right-handed man-spin is, however :confused:...can't say I've ever done one before! Like Rachel I was at the Ceroc Central crew day last Sunday - and it was the first time I'd seen this move too.

Someone will probably need to correct me here :blush: - but if I remember right, the body positions are exactly the same as the old man spin (Leader turns ACW while changing places, follower walks forward and turns ACW to face). The difference is that the hold starts Right-Right and the leader lets go with right hand whilst turning.

Found it hard to lead at first - mainly because I kept wanting to end the move differently - but I guess I'll get used to it.

BTW I tried to make a note of all the Beginners' move changes - again I probably need correcting but I think the list is this:

Beginners moves on their way out:
*Half Windmill
*Push Spin
*RH Push Spin
*YoYo Push Spin
*Wurlitzer
*Hatchback

New Beginners Moves:
* Armjive-Swizzle (?sp)
* RH Manspin
* In & Out
* New Lady spin
* Slow Comb
* Sway

And, as pointed out above, there is a new -style Yoyo which presumably replaces the old one.

However I also thought these were just being trialled so far - I guess if there is outcry at a particular move being gained or lost then it may change in the final version.

[Gus]

Hmmm ... the only issue I'd possibly raise is the comb. Being somewhat conservative in nature I would like to remove combs from the beginners syllabus entirely. Its the intimacy of this move which seems to make many beginners uncomfortable ... even when doing on workshops.

As for the rest ... will have to go to a Ceroc club (that hasn't banned me :tears: ). Paul F ... willing to show me this brave new world?:waycool:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by DavidY
Beginners moves on their way out:
*Half WindmillAgree. Although it does teach the ladies to turn on the spot.


*Push Spin
*RH Push Spin
*YoYo Push Spin

Hurrah!! All push-spins are the work of the devil.

*Wurlitzer
*HatchbackBoooooooooooooooooooooo.

New Beginners Moves:
* Armjive-Swizzle (?sp)
* RH Manspin
* In & Out
* New Lady spin
* Slow Comb
* Sway

No strong feelings about this, except the slow comb. I don't see the point of this in the beginners at all.

Is there anything more awful to behold than a bunch of shy, embarrassed and inhibited beginners trying to stand still and wiggle sexily for three beats (apart from doing it for more than three beats)?

Chris

[Emma]

Originally posted by Gus
Hmmm ... the only issue I'd possibly raise is the comb. Being somewhat conservative in nature I would like to remove combs from the beginners syllabus entirely. Its the intimacy of this move which seems to make many beginners uncomfortable ... even when doing on workshops. Yeah...but then what would Franck teach? :devil: :wink: :grin:

Originally posted by ChrisA
Is there anything more awful to behold than a bunch of shy, embarrassed and inhibited beginners trying to stand still and wiggle sexily for three beats (apart from doing it for more than three beats)?You haven't seen Kelly teach a comb at Charlton, clearly! :grin: :waycool:

Joking apart...combs? I'm indifferent to their inclusion or exclusion.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Emma
You haven't seen Kelly teach a comb at Charlton, clearly! :grin: :waycool:

No :nice: What am I missing?


Joking apart...combs? I'm indifferent to their inclusion or exclusion.
I think the best learning point about a comb is that if it's taught properly, followers can start to learn not to step back at the end of a return until the leader lowers the hand and steps them back.

For that reason alone I think the comb should remain in the beginners syllabus.

Chris

[Paul F]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Agree. Although it does teach the ladies to turn on the spot.
[B]
Hurrah!! All push-spins are the work of the devil.
[B]Boooooooooooooooooooooo.
[B]
No strong feelings about this, except the slow comb. I don't see the point of this in the beginners at all.

Is there anything more awful to behold than a bunch of shy, embarrassed and inhibited beginners trying to stand still and wiggle sexily for three beats (apart from doing it for more than three beats)?

Chris


:tears: Thats a fun class re-think for me then!!

Was going to get them to do the slow comb for 30 minutes while I had a beer :whistle:

Its certainly a brave new world Gus :grin: when ive figured it out i will let you know :wink:

[Gadget]

My feelings on the comb are mixed: I think that it's an excelent move to draw an oooh from a beginner as long as you don't draw it out too long. But there are so many pitfalls with this move:
- Differences in height,
- Timing to step in without getting clobbered
- Drawing the hand over the head while keeping the rest of the lady at bay
- Keeping the oxter closed.
- Dealing with 'personal space'

I feel it's taught too slowly - I'm 6ft, most ladies are smaller than me and the move looks best when shoulders are the same level; this means that I spend a long time 'waiting' for the teacher to commence while I am stationary with bent knees, it also makes the 'sexy wiggle' bit look naff {perhaps that's just me :sad:}

What is the difference between a "short" and "long" comb? In my experiance, it is only the lead into it that differs: Long is done from a return and short without a return. Personally I would like to see the comb done from a return (much smoother) and the "lingering for two beats" dropped from the comb.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Gus
Hmmm ... the only issue I'd possibly raise is the comb. Being somewhat conservative in nature I would like to remove combs from the beginners syllabus entirely....

Franck, Ill hold 'im you smack 'im :)

[fruitcake]

Originally posted by Gadget

I feel it's taught too slowly - I'm 6ft, most ladies are smaller than me and the move looks best when shoulders are the same level; this means that I spend a long time 'waiting' for the teacher to commence while I am stationary with bent knees, it also makes the 'sexy wiggle' bit look naff {perhaps that's just me :sad:}



There's a bit of a height difference between us ,gadget, and I do notice that you have to bend you knees QUITE a bit when we do the comb.
I wonder how very tall women get on with very small men, my friend is very tall, yet she does the comb with unsuspecting males in the teaching session. Would a little guy just choose not to do the comb if he had a six foot woman?!

[Danger Mouse]

Originally posted by Bigger Andy
Hi there !

So far, I have been taught the new 'Yoyo' where the man turns to face the lady rather than bringing her back around in front of him. I'm afraid that I can't understand the point of this as I feel that if people can do one of the moves than they can do the other.

Seems I've been doing the new YoYo for ages.

When ever I do a YoYo these days in freestyle I nearly always end up turning to face the lady. I Never really thought about it too hard & never realised it was a different move.

Maybe some one has been watching me :blush:

[Danger Mouse]

Originally posted by Rachel
I also like the new ladyspin - where, rather than the ball and socket handhold, the leader takes his left (?) hand over and takes hold of the lady's wrist or forearm to spin her. I think it feels nicer that way.

Ah! I joined in with a beginner’s session on Wednesday at my local club & we were taught the new ladyspin. I can’t say I like it at the moment, it might grow on me who knows. I rather like the ball & socket way of doing it and I’m used to using the momentum generated by the push to spin myself & I’m not sure if it looks as good using the new ladyspin.

So I’m going to stick to the old method in freestyle unless someone red cards me. :yum:

[bigdjiver]

One of my magic moments as a novice was being paired with a skin-head lady and hearing for the first time "The next move is the short comb". She could not understand why I was biting my lip.

I am 6'3 and a cross betwen Lurch and Hermann Munster, so the comb does not feature in my repetoire. "Best seen as a blur"

I do dance a lot with beginners. The only time I demonstrate the comb is for ladies that lack energy, or have trouble spinning, to show that there are rest moves.

A lot of people hate the "in your face" aspect of it. "If it were taught, it were best taught quickly"? One the other hand there are people who come to MJ seeking the UCP experience, with the right partner, and it is a godsend for those beginners.

[Jon]

Dan said it's 1 classic intermediate move but ceroc kent teach 2 of the 4 moves as classics. Now given that alot of people go dancing more than one a week prehaps 3 or more then as a dancer your very quickly going to be repeating moves.

I agree we do need something for improvers and prehaps restricting it to one move is better but would they cope with the other 3 moves, would they be satisfied with 1 move then droping out? Dunno hard to answer or would a seperate class be better but where do you teach it?

As for advanced dancers they don't nessacerly want more and more complicated moves but rather style tips on simple moves.

So prehaps, 1 classic move, 1 fairly simple move with style tips, 1 intermediate move with style taught so all 3 can be repeated. Then people can drop out so 1 hard move can be taught.

Unsure about warmup classes although having done salsa intermediate warm up classes are great. If it's something similar then I'm all for it.

Thank goodness the half windmill is going, I know one teacher who won't like that tho!

[fruitcake]

Sorry folks, don't rally have time to read all the posts, but I'd like to put my tuppenceworth in....
i think the warm up is great for new people, REALLY great, bit boring for the others but what the hell, you get to say hello and yak to people which you can't normally do if you're concentrating on moves. Its very reassuring for the new ones, who lets be honest , are probably terrified. personally i get the warm up of my muscles getting out of the car and up the steps!!
But it helps loosen ones mind, preparing one for the next lot of moves.

oops "the rock"'s about to start-I'm off!

[Pete]

Originally posted by Gus
Hmmm ... the only issue I'd possibly raise is the comb. Being somewhat conservative in nature I would like to remove combs from the beginners syllabus entirely. Its the intimacy of this move which seems to make many beginners uncomfortable ... even when doing on workshops.


Thank gawd for that - I thought I was the only person who found the comb buttock-clenchingly embarrassing to learn. Me clenching my own buttocks, btw.

[fruitcake]

Originally posted by Pete
Thank gawd for that - I thought I was the only person who found the comb buttock-clenchingly embarrassing to learn. Me clenching my own buttocks, btw.

I am not a shy person, but found the comb awfully intimate for a beginner, it invades your personal space when you're not used to it. I also found when the guys were looking straight in to your eyes,very unnerving, I used to look at my feet.
Now I'm more used to it, and know most the folks I find it easy and just look right back at 'em, :yum:

[Doc Iain]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I've had a look at the list of "Classics" at cerockent.com - and I agree with Andy that putting two of them into every intermediate class is a dumbing down.

This is a possibility but I have recently been to a very good class in Bromley where the 2 "classic" moves were taught fairly briskly then a good deal of emphasis was placed on, not just being able to do the moves but doing them with a bit of style, which personally is where I feel some ceroc dancers (including myself) and classes loose out. It is fine building up a large repertoire of moves as has been suggested, but personally I feel I am dancing my best when I use less moves but do more with them! The class I mention helped people to do this with the 2 simpler moves. Then she taught 2 harder moves on the end. This way also the teachers can actually raise the standard of the class by adding some really quite hard to dance or harder to teach (double pretzal etc.) moves on the end and not worrying that they will have scared off anyone who has just moved up a level.

I think it is a great idea so long as the style and musicality of the first two classic moves is emphasised.
:clap:

[Bigger Andy]

:confused:

Isn't talking about teaching 'style' opening up a whole new can of worms ?

I went to a 'style' workshop run by Ceroc Kent and the main thrust of the workshop was that style was a personal thing and that we all had our own individual style and that the teachers job was to bring it out of us.

I must admit that when I went to the workshop I had expected that I would be taught the correct way to do things !

:confused:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Doc Iain
but personally I feel I am dancing my best when I use less moves but do more with them!

Totally agree with this.. :yeah:


The class I mention helped people to do this with the 2 simpler moves.

However, it is perfectly possible to take this approach simply by picking intermediate routines to include some simpler moves, whose style points can then be emphasised, rather than mandating two (or even one) of a particular set.

Also, I'd argue that the people this will really help (assuming the "do more with the moves" is being taught well) are the ones that are already looking to improve their style. Sad but IMHO true, most will ignore style points anyway.

Chris

[Doc Iain]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Totally agree with this.. :yeah:
However, it is perfectly possible to take this approach simply by picking intermediate routines to include some simpler moves, whose style points can then be emphasised...

Also, I'd argue that the people this will really help (assuming the "do more with the moves" is being taught well) are the ones that are already looking to improve their style. Sad but IMHO true, most will ignore style points anyway.:yeah:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Bigger Andy
I must admit that when I went to the workshop I had expected that I would be taught the correct way to do things !You are confusing style with technique. Don't worry - you are not alone. There isn't any commonly accepted definition on what style is.

My definition (at the moment) is:
Technique is what you need to do to dance well, principally to make it feel good to your partner.
Style is everything else you do when you dance, hopefully to make it look good to your partner, and your audience.

Good Style is completely subjective. Good Technique can be a lot more objective. (eg you can argue about whether someone's style looks good. But you can't argue when someone's technique hurts their partner!)

And it is not black and white - some things can fit both definitions.

Even if it was advertised as a Technique Class, you still could be taught several different things. There isn't just one correct technique - there are lots of ways of doing things right. You just try to find whatever works for you. The main aim is to avoid doing the things that are definitely wrong.

David

[Katie]

Originally posted by DavidB


My definition (at the moment) is:
Technique is what you need to do to dance well, principally to make it feel good to your partner.
Style is everything else you do when you dance, hopefully to make it look good to your partner, and your audience.

David


Thanks David for your definition, it really helps. Now i understand that when someone comments about great technique, but fails to praise their style - i am now wiser!

[Funky Si]

'ello,

Thought I'd just share my opinion in regard to the warm-up!

IMHO, in the 4 years plus I've been DJ'ing there has always been historically a certain resistance to any form of change within dance as it can make people feel uncertain and insecure, BUT the only way things will ever develop and become more what the dancers want is by change. Bit of a catch 22 really.

Personally, I feel the 'warm-up' class works for the majority that it is aimed at: the beginners. As has already been pointed out, it is not a warm-up in the athletic sense, it more of a warm-up in the fun sense. It gets people moving, regardless of skill level, so it has the effect of instantly putting brand new dancers at ease with basic movements that they feel they can do. This builds their confidence and hopefully means they will return. It also puts everyone on the 'same level.'

From my DJ position, I can clearly see that people enjoy it. I would also say that the people that don't enjoy it fall within a very specific demographic.

Also, by the nature of the length of the night, there is only a finite amount of time in which to do things, and as crew, we have to try and provide a well-balanced night of modern jive. This will inevitably mean that we don't always satisfy the extreme ends of the dancing spectrum, from the total beginner to the advanced dancer, but we certainly try!

Again, I think the feedback is welcome and time will tell if these changes work for the majority.

:nice:


Funky Si


www.kordmusic.com

[Gadget]

I had a brief converasation with Lisa about the "Warmup" and from that stemmed the following thoughts:
- The term "Warmup" is incorrect. If anything, I think that it should be called an "Extended introduction to Dance" or "Introduction to Ceroc" {/MJ}
- The teachers have to be sold on the concept before they can teach it effectivly.
- The concept (what the end result is meant to acheive) needs to be defined before the 'excercises' are defined.
- The introduction should last between 2 and 5 mins

I think that the whole idea is to give the class an introduction to dancing, more specifically partner dancing. What you need to do is imagine that everyone is from the planet Zog and has no idea of what to do or how to do it, so leading from this you need to define the most basic elements of dancing: Rhythm, movement and lead/follow.

Introducing rhythm and movement is simply listening to a track and stepping with it; this can vary from week to week to keep interest levels. I would also include somthing about not stopping - even if you think a move is screwd.
For a lot of people this seems stupid, moving to music just comes naturally (ladies more than men) but I have seen/danced with people that just do not know how to move to a beat!

Introducing lead/follow is a bit harder as beginner ladies always predict and move where they should instead of doing what the man leads. Poss have the ladies close eyes and men start/stop the basic movement above via a signal from the stage?
It would also be nice to incorporate 'together-away' and 'clockwise-anticlockwise' concepts.

This "introduction" could also be seen as an introduction to taxi dancers, workshops and what they entail - I would imagine that takeup of them may increase due to this.

[Bigger Andy]

Originally posted by Funky Si

I would also say that the people that don't enjoy it fall within a very specific demographic.


Would you care to elaborate ?

:confused:

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Funky Si
From my DJ position, I can clearly see that people enjoy it. I would also say that the people that don't enjoy it fall within a very specific demographic.
From my own experience, and extrapolating from the general attitude at beginner's lessons locally, I'd guess the demographic would be:

"Self-conscious men, lacking in confidence concerning their ability to dance".

Which might indeed be a specific demographic, but it is a rather large and commercially important one...?

[Danger Mouse]

Are all Ceroc venues now following this edict?

If so I think I'll go to a beginers session tonight at my local just to experience this 'warmup' and I'll give you my thoughts tomorrow.

[Funky Si]

Originally posted by Stuart M
From my own experience, and extrapolating from the general attitude at beginner's lessons locally, I'd guess the demographic would be:

"Self-conscious men, lacking in confidence concerning their ability to dance".

Which might indeed be a specific demographic, but it is a rather large and commercially important one...?

Actually, the demographic I was refering too is exactly the opposite of the one you have quited above Stuart. I think the 'warmup' (or whatever it's called now) actually helps the people you pointed out probably more than most!

[jivecat]

Originally posted by Funky Si

From my DJ position, I can clearly see that people enjoy it.


Going completely off topic, if DJs pay attention to whether the crowd are enjoying themseves, why don't they notice the difference between music that makes people dance with energy, pleasure and enthusiasm, and the kind of music that makes people dance like extras from "They Shoot Horses, Don't They?"
Cos then they could not bother playing the latter type, couldn't they? Or is this all too hopelessly subjective?

[stewart38]

Originally posted by Danger Mouse
Ah! I joined in with a beginner’s session on Wednesday at my local club & we were taught the new ladyspin. I can’t say I like it at the moment, it might grow on me who knows. I rather like the ball & socket way of doing it and I’m used to using the momentum generated by the push to spin myself & I’m not sure if it looks as good using the new ladyspin.

So I’m going to stick to the old method in freestyle unless someone red cards me. :yum:

Obviously this is happening every where now

As Im not a beginner should I comment ?

Im not letting the old ball and socket go without a fight.

Poor beginners now they will be dancing with intermediates that will be using the 'old ways'.

90% of intermediates used are not used by 90% of the people in general dancing .

I wish ceroc would stop trying to invent 'new moves' which nobody uses

[Bigger Andy]

Originally posted by stewart38
Im not letting the old ball and socket go without a fight.

Poor beginners - now they will be dancing with intermediates that will be using the 'old ways'.

I wish ceroc would stop trying to invent 'new moves' which nobody uses

I totally agree !
:)

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by stewart38
I wish ceroc would stop trying to invent 'new moves' which nobody uses Where should they stop though. If they'd done that after the first move, then there wouldn't be any others.

Who's to say that nobody uses the 'new moves'. Certainly, I liked the look of one of the moves that was included in the manual recently. Though, it was one that I already did anyhow :D

Trampy

[Gadget]

I was going to respond that I use the ball & socket method, and the flaws in trying to catch the lady's wrist, BUT I suddenly thought that I don't actually use either method :blush: I lead to the side, and use my left hand on the lady's right shoulder as an additional lead into the spin (very little, if any preasure used - but it makes the intention very clear)

I do occasionally get ladies mixing up the wrap with the lead into the lady-spin: perhaps this 'new' method of leading it will eliminate this?

I think that there is probably a reason behind every change... pity we have to guess at them. :devil:

[Bigger Andy]

Perhaps the answer to the "dumbing down of both the 'Beginners Class' and the 'Intermediates Class' is to introduce an 'Advanced Class' ?

I am not aware of any 'Advanced Classes' being held in the Kent area where I dance.

Does anyone else know if this idea is already being implemented anywhere, and if so, where ?

:confused:

[Gadget]

I don't think the idea is to "dumb down": I think that it's to make the classes accessable and targeted at a larger audience; introducing a little bit of basics at the sacrifice of some of the 'mid-level' moves. This does not shift the target 'downwards' - it expands it downwards.

As to "advanced" classes - I havn't seen billings for any, but I think that it's just a matter of time - but I don't think that it bears any corelation to the changes in teaching metholody.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gadget
As to "advanced" classes - I havn't seen billings for any, but I think that it's just a matter of time

There are loads of Ceroc Advanced classes, including:

Woking, Tues
Fulham, Thurs
Fleet, Thurs

Does anyone have a complete, up to date list?

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Peter
There are loads of Ceroc Advanced classes, including:

Woking, Tues

So when are Will and/or Kate doing the CTA course then?

:devil:

[RobC]

Originally posted by Peter
There are loads of Ceroc Advanced classes, including:

Woking, Tues
Fulham, Thurs
Fleet, Thurs

Does anyone have a complete, up to date list?
Godalming on Sundays :wink:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by RobC
Godalming on Sundays :wink:

While we've got Rob's attention, would anyone else like to know how he got on with his CTA auditions?:devil:

[RobC]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
While we've got Rob's attention, would anyone else like to know how he got on with his CTA auditions?:devil:
Well, I haven't actually had one. I'm still waiting for official confirmation, but it seems that the current line of thinking is that Simon's existing teachers (ie. Dan Slape, myself, Debi & Simon himself) won't need to do the CTA audition.
:clap: :clap: :clap:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by RobC
Well, I haven't actually had one. I'm still waiting for official confirmation, but it seems that the current line of thinking is that Simon's existing teachers (ie. Dan Slape, myself, Debi & Simon himself) won't need to do the CTA audition.
:clap: :clap: :clap:

This is a BIG, BIG change. The line up of Ceroc teachers will now look something like this;

Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Rob Coward
Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)

At long last there'll be a new look to the Ceroc Teachers Conference photo:devil:

[spindr]

Originally posted by RobC
Well, I haven't actually had one. I'm still waiting for official confirmation, but it seems that the current line of thinking is that Simon's existing teachers (ie. Dan Slape, myself, Debi & Simon himself) won't need to do the CTA audition.
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Sounds like the (TBC) right decision to me -- hope you hear soon.

SpinDr.

P.S. Is it just me, or do I detect a smidgen of jealousy from Mr McGregor -- not so much weird, or wonderful, but perhaps "chief stirrer"?

[RobC]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
This is a BIG, BIG change. The line up of Ceroc teachers will now look something like this;


Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Rob Coward
Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Spiky haired, attractive, young, fit guy (male clone Ceroc teacher)
Err, so how come I'm not surrounded by young, attractive, blonde, slim fit girls ?

Surely it should go :

Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Rob Coward (Unique and can't be cloned)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)

:whistle: :whistle:

[Gadget]

getting back on topic; :rolleyes:

Lisa did an introductary class last night and inserted some basic 'concepts' into the beginner lesson as it was progressing...

Only a couple of comments on an otherwise excelent introduction/class:

- please give me a chance to process the directions (forward, back, right, left) instead of calling them as you're doing them... I only have a little brain and it gets confused easily. :blush: :sick:

- I still think that the lead-follow aspect needs some sort of thing to prevent the ladies from taking the initative and ensure they are following. Perhaps it was just me, but I found my partner just moving (fore/back) in time with the music rather than in time with my lead. {I know you should move in time with the music, but to explain: I sometimes play with the speed of the movement so that short 'pauses' can be inserted or eliminated with each beat.}

That's it. A good introduction to the basics of dancing. Unsure about what was said about it being the same class taught throught the UK: was it the same class that night, or the same class that week? (I think I only have negative comments if it's the latter.)
One final thing: the "re-naming" of the new method of lady-spin as a "Ceroc-spin" is a bit OTT IMHO. (Although the move it's self is... different, I have no doubt that it will never be confused with the wrap. I also found myself being lazy and dropping the R-hand before the block was complete - not sure of exactly when it was taught that the hand would be dropped - in the spin I think. Although since it uses the other hand, there is less room for men's styling.)

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Gadget
Unsure about what was said about it being the same class taught throught the UK: was it the same class that night, or the same class that week? (I think I only have negative comments if it's the latter.)Every beginner class taught on a particular night will now be the same throughout the UK.

So, last nights beginners class would have been the same, wherever you danced Ceroc last night. Tonights beginner class will be different from last nights, but again, the same, whether you're in Stirling, Glasgow, Windsor, St. Albans, or wherever there is a Ceroc class happening tonight.

Trampy

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by spindr
P.S. Is it just me, or do I detect a smidgen of jealousy from Mr McGregor

I suppose it's natural to be a bit jealous when you hear about a club that you can't join because you're too old, ugly, bald, short, etc.

Rob is my inspiration:whistle:


Originally posted by spindr
not so much weird, or wonderful, but perhaps "chief stirrer"?

Someone need to keep the debate churning - this week it's me as Gus seems to have 'ceased and desisted':whistle:

p.s. And I don't blame Gus for holding back for a day or two, while he's still annoyed is not the time to post - he needs a clear head to be his most devilish:devil:

[spindr]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I suppose it's natural to be a bit jealous when you hear about a club that you can't join because you're too old, ugly, bald, short, etc.

Rob is my inspiration:whistle:

Hmmm, I'm not sure why Rob's your inspiration -- he's not old, ugly, bald or short -- Andy I think your eyes may need testing :)

Perhaps, if you're really interested in pushing the boundaries you should send in your own application to do the CTA -- and publish the correspondence?
Or do you subscribe to the Groucho Marx maxim "I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member".

SpinDr.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Someone need to keep the debate churning - this week it's me as Gus seems to have 'ceased and desisted':whistle:

p.s. And I don't blame Gus for holding back for a day or two, while he's still annoyed is not the time to post - he needs a clear head to be his most devilish:devil:

Me still annoyed ... Nahhhh. Just suffering a temporary sense of humour failure. I realised that having that having received a directive from the all encompasing Dance God that is Ceroc HQ there was only one course of action open ... IGNORE IT! What can they do?:devil: :devil:

If all correspondence ceases you'll know that the mythical Ceroc Loyalty Enforcement squad do indeed exist and that they've found me :tears: :wink:

Hold on ...... just heard a knock at the door .... will be back in a mo ..............

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by spindr
Hmmm, I'm not sure why Rob's your inspiration -- he's not old, ugly, bald or short

Rob isn't, but I am:tears: :tears: :tears:

Rob is my inspiration because he isn't the Ceroc clone we've come to expect.


Originally posted by spindr
Andy, I think your eyes may need testing :)

I'll nip straight down the opticians - if I can see it:innocent:


Originally posted by spindr
Perhaps, if you're really interested in pushing the boundaries you should send in your own application to do the CTA -- and publish the correspondence?


Unfortunately, I couldn't imagine anything more tying than having to be on-stage every Thursday (pick your weekday) of every week, etc.

Besides, I wouldn't work in a smoky atmosphere which might put me at odds with any contract I signed with Ceroc.


Originally posted by spindr
Or do you subscribe to the Groucho Marx maxim "I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member".


I'm the opposite, I want to belong to any club that won't accept me as a member:devil:

[Bill]

Originally posted by RobC
Err, so how come I'm not surrounded by young, attractive, blonde, slim fit girls ?

Surely it should go :

Young, attractive, blonde, slim, fit girl (female clone Ceroc teacher)
:whistle: :whistle:


WOnder if this idea holds true for Scotland :confused: ...Our three male teachers in Scotland don't really fit this 'profile' ....Franck, Obi and Scot are all wonderful dancers but don't really fit the young, slim, spiky look :na:

but then again only one of them was born in Scotland..... come to think of it many of the male mj dancers in Scotland who are often identified as being amongst the best up here or have done well recently in comps - weren't born here .......... Sherwin, Steve, James, Steven, Gilbert ....... but we do have lots of really good men up here these days, as the women will testify, and not that many with the fit, spiky look :D

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Bill
WOnder if this idea holds true for Scotland :confused: ...Our three male teachers in Scotland don't really fit this 'profile' ....Franck, Obi and Scot are all wonderful dancers but don't really fit the young, slim, spiky look :na: But these are all people who have been teaching for a long time.

I wonder how many of them would be accepted onto the Ceroc CTA course now. This goes for several of the other teachers who are teaching down south too.

Someone who I consider to be one of the best Ceroc teachers (Adam), was turned down 5 times I believe, and was only accepted as a franchisee, once he'd built up a successful jive business already.

Trampy

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by TheTramp
But these are all people who have been teaching for a long time.

I wonder how many of them would be accepted onto the Ceroc CTA course now. This goes for several of the other teachers who are teaching down south too.

Someone who I consider to be one of the best Ceroc teachers (Adam), was turned down 5 times I believe, and was only accepted as a franchisee, once he'd built up a successful jive business already.

Trampy

Stever Nash, who`s been teaching Ceroc in Horsham for many years told me that he would no longer qualify as a Ceroc teacher because he thinks he`s too ugly:wink:

He told me I`m also too ugly - and too old:tears:

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I wonder how many of them would be accepted onto the Ceroc CTA course now. This goes for several of the other teachers who are teaching down south too.


Agree. I know a number of CTA graduates who were only accepted because they were Franchisees (me being a case in point). I wonder that if, as part of the new world, any overweight, overage, receding hairline, non-gorgeous dancers have been accepted onto the CTA program?????

Hey ... Trampy ... get Franck to sponsor you to the CTA and put it to the test :devil: :devil: :wink:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Gus
Hey ... Trampy ... get Franck to sponsor you to the CTA and put it to the test :devil: :devil: :wink: Actually, I've already recently been put forward by one franchise holder (not Franck), to become an affiliated teacher under the proposed new scheme.

And was once again immediately rejected by Ceroc Head Office :shrug:

Trampy

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by TheTramp
And was once again immediately rejected by Ceroc Head Office :shrug:
Do they not give reasons?

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by TheTramp
And was once again immediately rejected by Ceroc Head Office :shrug:

Trampy

It was probably your personality - you've got one:devil:

[Gadget]

Probably because you think too much - won't just follow a routine or procedure because that's the way it's done: need to know why before blindley following directives.

erm.... {:what: backtracking}... it's not that the existing or new teachers do this...just that Tramp would be a more "disruptive influence" than the 'norm'. {did I get away with that? :whistle:}

So what are the entrance requirements to become a CTA? I would have thought that willingness and ability were all that were needed {and £££} - teaching skills and subject matter are what they should be passing on to the pupils. They can always fail those that do not promote the Ceroc way.

[bigdjiver]

First night at Ceroc Rugby Thursday (Mar 4th). A very nice venue, with a very good crowd attending.

There was, as usual in openings, a high ratio of beginners to regulars. The new policy of the same beginners routine everywhere was in practise. The routine taught was the arm-jive swizzle, step-across, side-to-side step across, Ceroc-spin.

For various reasons many people did not think this an ideal routine to be taught as an intro to Ceroc, especially with so many newcomers. To my surprise the class "got it". I did not see anybody leave after the lesson, which was also unexpected. It is not unusual for the occasional beginner to flee then. In fact very few left before the end, when Alex and Emma treated us to their spectacular showcase routine.

I would think this was close to worst-case for the rigidity of the new policy, and it passed the test.

Next week, Sat 13th, we will find out how the freestyle in Rugby turns out, another bold experiment. A freestyle on the edge of a Franchise area where there is not a regular venue. Judging by the quality attendance from Leicester, Northampton and Kettering, and further, on Thursday it should be a success.

[jivecat]

[i]Originally posted by bigdjiver
For various reasons many people did not think this an ideal routine to be taught as an intro to Ceroc, especially with so many newcomers. To my surprise the class "got it".


Why did people not think it was ideal? I thought the main difficulty was the swizzle part but everyone coped, as you say. Several gung-ho beginner blokes went on to do the intermediate routine and seemed to manage that as well, though it was much easier than many intermediate routines.

Yes, Rugby is a lovely venue, with a nice floor. I liked the faintly exotic air provided by the Indian flags and paraphernalia. The bar staff were very friendly, too.

Which one was you, Bigdjiver?

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by jivecat
Why did people not think it was ideal? I thought the main difficulty was the swizzle part but everyone coped, as you say. Several gung-ho beginner blokes went on to do the intermediate routine and seemed to manage that as well, though it was much easier than many intermediate routines.

Yes, Rugby is a lovely venue, with a nice floor. I liked the faintly exotic air provided by the Indian flags and paraphernalia. The bar staff were very friendly, too.

Which one was you, Bigdjiver?
It is difficult to cast myself back into a beginners shoes, but the swizzle into a nelson is move that many find difficult, the step across is about as easy as it gets, the side to side pull across is a move that has many changes of orientation and requires a good lead, and the transition from that to a spin some ladies find difficult as they tend to be on the wrong foot, after all that the guy has the problem of reaching his left arm across to his right for the Ceroc spin. It is so second nature to most of us that we just cannot realise how daunting it can be.
Emma knew, but is experienced enough to cope. Combining a beginners refresher into the intermediate worked superbly.

The barman does deserve recognition, his self-mocking use of the phrase "lubbly jubbly" won me over straight away.

Big is a sort of clue. I have a tendency to try and overcome height differences by kneeling, crouching, or lifting the ladies.

I saw no furry tails ...:wink:

[jivecat]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
[The barman does deserve recognition, his self-mocking use of the phrase "lubbly jubbly" won me over straight away.



Yeah, me too. He must say it to everyone!



I'm not very furry but I do like curling up in a warm spot.



Hmmm. Big? Still mystified.....

[DavidY]

Originally posted by jivecat
Which one was you, Bigdjiver? Was wondering the same thing myself ...
Originally posted by bigdjiver
In fact very few left before the end, when Alex and Emma treated us to their spectacular showcase routine.That would be the one that won first prize in the Spotlight category at Blackpool yesterday....

I think that even though there were lots of beginners, there were still quite a few experienced dancers from Northampton (which was closed that night) and other folk coming along just to see what the new venue was like, which helped guide the beginners.

I think the test will be to see how it goes for the next few weeks when the novelty has worn off. Probably a smart move having a freestyle so soon though (IMHO anyway) as it will hopefully draw in other Ceroc Central regulars.

[jivecat]

Originally posted by DavidY
Probably a smart move having a freestyle so soon though (IMHO anyway) as it will hopefully draw in other Ceroc Central regulars.


True, except it's at another venue, isn't it? So I'll have to get lost in Rugby all over again.

[Bigger Andy]

I have now attended classes where I have learnt the following new 'Beginners Moves' :-
'Back pass', 'Ceroc Spin', 'In and Out' and the new 'Yoyo'.

The 'Hatchback and 'Wurlitzer' are now considered to be 'Intermediate Moves'.

Does anyone know what the 'Beginners Moves' are any more ? :devil:

Is there a list of the 'Beginners Moves' anywhere ? :confused:

Something like the list of the 34 'Classic Intermediate Moves' on the Ceroc, Kent website at :- http://www.cerockent.com would be useful.

[Funky Si]

Hi Andy,

I shall see if we can get a list of the new beginners moves on the Cerockent site, as I think you have a good point!

Funky Si

www.kordmusic.com

and webmaster of...

www.cerockent.com

:nice:

[bigdjiver]

Another innovation that I had not seen before unveiled at Bedford last night - this time in moving on. For some reason women from miles away that I normally see twice a year descended on us in droves. The movers on were split into packs at the end of each set of double rows.

This meant that the ladies did not have to walk so far, and moving on was much quicker. It also meant that each set of two rows of men only got to dance with one group of ladies.

It also meant that the ladies could choose which group of men they could move around, and so either avoid an individual, or get a better chance of dancing with some others. It worked remarkably well.

For the second week in a row we had one of the new moves that many considered OTT. Many ladies do not want to wiggle their bottom at just anybody, as in the "Crucifix". (I think that a bad name, and do not care for the move) Or lift their foot between a mans legs (ripostes expected) I think that close to twenty dropouts from a class tells its own story.

The questionable moves were at least properly placed last in the lesson, so at least they got to enjoy most of it before quitting.

We also did an arm roll, imported I believe from Salsa, which is another thing I, and I think many others, would prefer to avoid.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
We also did an arm roll, imported I believe from Salsa, which is another thing I, and I think many others, would prefer to avoid. What is an arm roll?

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by bigdjiver

For the second week in a row we had one of the new moves that many considered OTT. Many ladies do not want to wiggle their bottom at just anybody, as in the "Crucifix". (I think that a bad name, and do not care for the move) Or lift their foot between a mans legs (ripostes expected) I think that close to twenty dropouts from a class tells its own story.

Don't know the arm roll either but could the crucifix be what I call the "Lydia"??
And :eek: am I the only one who really thought it was called that?
Agree it's not an every day move and have only ever seen it taught in a workshop and I'm just remembering as I type that it was a Vicktor and Lydia workshop LOL.

Agree this is more of a special occasion move, I'm not exactly shy but I wouldn't be doing this with every Tom, Dick :rofl: and Harry on the floor, indeed have turned myself out of it when invited to "get down" a few times before now.

Question, was it taught as an "invitational move"?

C:D

[Rachel]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
Another innovation that I had not seen before unveiled at Bedford last night - this time in moving on. For some reason women from miles away that I normally see twice a year descended on us in droves. That's probably because they'd heard Marc had been teaching there the last couple of weeks!!! (Though not last night - unfortunately.)

I think!]
Rachel

[Rachel]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
For the second week in a row we had one of the new moves that many considered OTT. Many ladies do not want to wiggle their bottom at just anybody, as in the "Crucifix". (I think that a bad name, and do not care for the move) Or lift their foot between a mans legs (ripostes expected) I think that close to twenty dropouts from a class tells its own story. Oh - just read this again, cos it had got me thinking ....

When you say, OTT moves for the second week in a row .... Marc wasn't there last night, but he did teach Bedford last week, and I'd be very surprised if he had done any moves like that. I wasn't there, but I do usually go through his classes with him and 'vet' any of the moves, if necessary.

He certainly didn't do the crucifix or the foot between the mans' legs. Is there another move that he did which you think was unsuitable? Please let us know, cos feedback like that is vital.
Rachel

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by DavidB
What is an arm roll?
Last night it was righthand to right hand. Gent draws lady to him by manouvering (a spell checker would be good) his elbow inside hers. This means that the gents pointy elbow is moving towards the ladies face. My arms are longer than most ladies, so it is usually very awkward for me.

last night this was used to pivot the lady into a Mambo step. I have no trouble pivoting into the Mambo step in freestyle without the elbow thingmy.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Chicklet
Don't know the arm roll either but could the crucifix be what I call the "Lydia"??
And :eek: am I the only one who really thought it was called that?
Agree it's not an every day move and have only ever seen it taught in a workshop and I'm just remembering as I type that it was a Vicktor and Lydia workshop LOL.

Agree this is more of a special occasion move, I'm not exactly shy but I wouldn't be doing this with every Tom, Dick :rofl: and Harry on the floor, indeed have turned myself out of it when invited to "get down" a few times before now.

Question, was it taught as an "invitational move"?
C:D Someone else calls it the "Jolly Roger".

Michaela teaches it as an invitational move, with get down and slide one leg back between the guys legs as an alternative.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Rachel
Oh - just read this again, cos it had got me thinking ....

When you say, OTT moves for the second week in a row .... Marc wasn't there last night, but he did teach Bedford last week, and I'd be very surprised if he had done any moves like that. I wasn't there, but I do usually go through his classes with him and 'vet' any of the moves, if necessary.

He certainly didn't do the crucifix or the foot between the mans' legs. Is there another move that he did which you think was unsuitable? Please let us know, cos feedback like that is vital.
Rachel Whoops! I forgot, I was not at Bedford last week, I went to Rugby for the new venue launch instead instead. Recently would have been more accurate.

Perhaps the ladies had heard I wasn't there the previous week was another explanation for the influx?

Apologies for the error.

[Gus]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
Last night it was righthand to right hand. Gent draws lady to him by manouvering (a spell checker would be good) his elbow inside hers. This means that the gents pointy elbow is moving towards the ladies face. My arms are longer than most ladies, so it is usually very awkward for me.


This is a bit strange ... at least two of these moves sound like the moves Viktor and Lydia were introducing in their 2002/3 tour :confused: Must admit that they are not moves I'd generaly teach in an open class forum .... and I hope that Teachers are acknowledging the source of these moves:devil: :devil:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Gus
This is a bit strange ... at least two of these moves sound like the moves Viktor and Lydia were introducing in their 2002/3 tour :confused: Must admit that they are not moves I'd generaly teach in an open class forum .... and I hope that Teachers are acknowledging the source of these moves:devil: :devil:
I remeber a similar move taught by Adam at a UCP workshop up here, and I'm sure that another "elbow over" move has been taught from the stage while I've been there...

[jivecat]

Originally posted by Rachel
That's probably because they'd heard Marc had been teaching there the last couple of weeks!!! (Though not last night - unfortunately.)

[I'm joking, of course ... I think!
Rachel

Must be ladies with excellent taste! When's he teaching at Leicester again, Rachel?:wink:

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Gus
This is a bit strange ... at least two of these moves sound like the moves Viktor and Lydia were introducing in their 2002/3 tour :confused: Must admit that they are not moves I'd generaly teach in an open class forum .... and I hope that Teachers are acknowledging the source of these moves:devil: :devil: I have been to several Viktor classes and never heard him tell the source of a move. I doubt anybody knows the original source of most. Probably most are the result of multiple independent invention. Once you have demonstrated a move in public it is public domain. All of us dancers have benefited from this fact, we just have to accept ours being copied is payback.

I very much doubt that Blitz teachers acknowledge how many moves came from Ceroc, Leroc, etc

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
and I hope that Teachers are acknowledging the source of these moves Which source would that be? I was taught the arm roll in the US in 2001 by Angel Figueroa. (I just didn't know what it was called.) He said it was a common Salsa move.

Unless a teacher goes to the trouble to prove that they have invented a move, then it is fair to assume that someone has done the before.

All a teacher can do is acknowledge where they got the move from, and I would only bother if it was a particularly impressive or unusual move.


And now I know what the move is, I'd be interested to see how it is being taught. It is a potentially very dangerous move for the lady.

David

[Gus]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
I very much doubt that Blitz teachers acknowledge how many moves came from Ceroc, Leroc, etc
Au contraire mon ami. Blitz do incorporate moves that have been harvested from other instructors ... but it is general practice to credit where they were first picked up ... a number of moves are taught as 'Viktor' moves ... though as DaveB correctly pints out Viktor may well not be the genesis of these moves ... BUT if he was the one who introduced many of us to these moves, then he has the right to be credited.

In my own workshops I give due credit to moves either taught or seen performed by N&N, Dan Baines and Roger Chin ... aswell as move sbrought back from NZ. The osmosis of new moves through the dancing community is healthy .... I just have a query if a move was taught as an 'official' Ceroc or Blitz move and by so doing the teaching orgnanisation sought to take credit for the move ... BUT I'm not saying they do..... (before I get flamed)

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
Which source would that be? I was taught the arm roll in the US in 2001 by Angel Figueroa. (I just didn't know what it was called.) He said it was a common Salsa move.

Spot on ... my original statement was clearly flawed. what I should have said is that credit could be given to the teacher who introduced you to the move.



And now I know what the move is, I'd be interested to see how it is being taught. It is a potentially very dangerous move for the lady.

David

think this was a key point. The move is potentialy disasterous and is one (IMHO) that should not be taught outside a workshop. the first time I came across it was at Ceroc Cricklewood .... someone had seen the move, decided to teach it from stage and managed to scare half the audience sh*tless. It was only when I saw Viktor do the move a few months later I realised what the move was actualy supposed to look like:tears:

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by DavidB
And now I know what the move is, I'd be interested to see how it is being taught. It is a potentially very dangerous move for the lady. I was taught as well as it can be from a stage to a class of around 100, with great emphasis on safety, as one would expect from Michaela. She knew it was an experienced crowd, and the beginners had been separated off into a refresher class. Nevertheless I "cheated", and did the move the way I do it in freestyle, with no arm roll. It is one of the moves I am garnering together for my blues set. Incidentally, Peter Phillips. (Lounge Lizard) also taught the arm roll at the Jook Jive venue.

[DavidY]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
Another innovation that I had not seen before unveiled at Bedford last night - this time in moving on. For some reason women from miles away that I normally see twice a year descended on us in droves. The movers on were split into packs at the end of each set of double rows. At Nottingham last night, in the Beginners' class, they also tried another way of moving on. There were about 9 spare women and they were asked to intersperse themselves between women with partners. Normally they all line up in one place near the start of the first row.

Results:
* a bit of confusion initially (as you'd expect with any new method)
* when men arrived wanting to dance, they couldn't find any partner-less women to dance with
* when the numbers started to even out, the teacher had to ask a couple of times where any spare women were who were still left partnerless in the rows (eventually there were men left over)

IMO not a success - it may work better when there is a big imbalance, but where the numbers are reasonably even, the old-fashioned way seems to work better.

David

[Lynn]

Originally posted by DavidY
At Nottingham last night, in the Beginners' class, they also tried another way of moving on. There were about 9 spare women and they were asked to intersperse themselves between women with partners. This is the way it works in the salsa class I go to - the class is in a circle and it allows later comers to slot into the circle - but sometimes there is a queue of several women waiting together. We tried it once in jive class but it didn't really work. We just as often have extra men rather than women.

Not that I'm complaining! :wink:

[bigdjiver]

The interspersed move-on was tried and abandoned at Bedford over a year ago. That experience led to some pessimism about the new end rows loop system, but it worked fine.

[stewart38]

So can anyone now list the new beginners moves ? :(

[Bigger Andy]

Originally posted by stewart38
So can anyone now list the new beginners moves ? :(
Stewart, see Funky Si's comment of 9th March. He said ...


Originally posted by Funky Si
I shall see if we can get a list of the new beginners moves on the Cerockent site, as I think you have a good point!

If this happens, everyone will be able to find out what they are :)

However, perhaps Funky Si doesn't even know what they all are as the Ceroc Kent website still hasn't been updated ! :devil:

[bigdjiver]

I was a bit surprised to find that the ladies were expected to do the "hands on the man's chest" as a beginner move on Monday night. My experience is that many ladies find this embarrassing, although I saw no problem in this particular class.

Was it really taught throughout the land?

Did anybody see any adverse reactions?

[DavidY]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
I was a bit surprised to find that the ladies were expected to do the "hands on the man's chest" as a beginner move on Monday night. My experience is that many ladies find this embarrassing, although I saw no problem in this particular class.

Was it really taught throughout the land? No, not even taught throughout Ceroc Central. At Nottingham on Monday we had an In & Out in Beginners' Moves, but no hands on chests.

[DavidY]

Looks like the list of Ceroc "Beginners" Moves may have changed again... (or at least they're trying out further changes)

Did anyone else do a Shoulder Drop (?) at a Ceroc beginners' class last night?

(Think the routine was something like First move (Push spin), Shoulder Drop, Shoulder Slide, Cerocspin, although I'm not sure I remembered the order correctly.)

Are there any more new Beginners moves?

[bigdjiver]

I joined the class late. Shoulder drop ?? :confused: :confused: :confused:
It was a trip down memory lane, seeking help from ladies with only a few lessons experience.

Even more so than the Ceroc spin, I do not think that this should be a beginner move.

Apart from which, one of my pleasures is looking at the ladies, not turning my back on them.

[DavidY]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
I joined the class late. Shoulder drop ?? :confused: :confused: :confused: I joined the class late too - only to have the teacher point out that I'd just joined in, and giving a running commentary to the rest of the class on whether I'd got the new move right or not. Thanks Marc... :hug: :flower: :wink:

[MartinHarper]

So if I wanted to do the old-style yoyo as a variation (ie, because I forgot it's different in Ceroc), what do I call it?

[MartinHarper]

So can anyone now list the new beginners moves ? :(
http://www.cerockidderminster.co.uk/ceroc_beginners_moves.tpl

[Lounge Lizard]

shoulder drop in a beginners class :what: am I reading this correct?

If so, sorry I do not agree with any form of drop in a beginners class, these IMHO are intermediate moves, how can a new dancer who is struggling with the arm jive or first move be expected to correctly execute any form of drop without risk of injury to their self or their partner.
Even if the lady is supposed to take their own weight there is no guarentee of safety. Many times the guy gets over zealous or the lady throws herself into the move

Source of Move
I know some of the moves I teach are original, some are adapted and some taken from other dance styles or teachers, many a time I have stood on stage at camber and given full credit to the person I got the move from, and I know others have done the same for me.

I am aware that on occasions I will spent weeks developing a move, teach it at Camber then find out a week later it is being taught as a new ceroc/leroc move invented by their local teacher, that is annoying, yes new moves once taught at camber or other events are in the public domain and free for all to use, but credit for our efforts is nice.
peter

[Gordon J Pownall]

shoulder drop in a beginners class :what: am I reading this correct?

Actually no mate....

it's just a name that Ceroc has used for a move....

Start off R to R

1. Both step back

2. Both step in man turns the lady anti clockwise to face

3. Man turns clockwise turning his back to the lady placing the lady's right hand onto his right shoulder (keeping hold)

4. Both step to right as man extends his right hand out to right (holding on to ladies right hand)

5. Both step to left as man brings lady's hand back to his right shoulder.

6. Man steps forward, letting go of ladies right hand, offering left hand behind his back (ladies hand DROPS FROM SHOULDER - hence shoulder drop), cathing mens left hand to ladies right hand

7. Man steps back as lady steps forward, pulling and raising his left hand turning the lady anti clockwise under his left hand

8. Both step back


Hope this helps - I agree with your sentiment though - it would be scary to teach any form of drop, lift seducer in a beginners class (sometimes even the intermediate class). Much better to be left for masterclasses / workshops...

I tend to limit the intermediate classes to leans and dips where the ladies always take their own weight and take into account if a move can be carried out safely bearing in mind that it is not fixed couples.


See you soon Pete,

G... :cheers:

[Gus]

Start off R to R

1. Both step back

2. Both step in man turns the lady anti clockwise to face

3. Man turns clockwise turning his back to the lady placing the lady's right hand onto his right shoulder (keeping hold)
.........

8. Both step back


Good God Man what are doing??? ... Publishing Ceroc (tm) moves for the common public to see :tears: Even now I hear the heavy footsteps of the CTA enforcement squad approaching your front door .... there will a sharp knock on the door ... and then Gordy will be 'disappeared' .....

Hey ... at least theres a bright side :devil: (only joking mate :hug: )

[Gordon J Pownall]

Good God Man what are doing??? ... Publishing Ceroc (tm) moves for the common public to see :tears: Even now I hear the heavy footsteps of the CTA enforcement squad approaching your front door .... there will a sharp knock on the door ... and then Gordy will be 'disappeared' .....

Hey ... at least theres a bright side :devil: (only joking mate :hug: )

Actually....this is not an exact replication of the move itself.....and anyway....it's not a Ceroc move......

It was invented by Tarquin Fim-Tim Wildebeest of Scrag End on the Marsh in AD1875 whilst trying to remove an errant badger from his shoulder during the Scrag End on the Marsh annual Badger Spooning Ancient Jive allcomers contest... :whistle:

[under par]

Good God Man what are doing??? ... Publishing Ceroc (tm) moves for the common public to see :tears: Even now I hear the heavy footsteps of the CTA enforcement squad approaching your front door .... there will a sharp knock on the door ... and then Gordy will be 'disappeared' .....

Hey ... at least theres a bright side :devil: (only joking mate :hug: )

Gordy do you want to hire some protection???? :whistle:

Forget your perfectly formed dance proportions. :whistle:

I've got a 6'8" frame, perfect for sorting out unwanted CTA enforcers in the dead of night.....for a price :wink:

[Gordon J Pownall]

Gordy do you want to hire some protection???? :whistle:

Forget your perfectly formed dance proportions. :whistle:

I've got a 6'8" frame, perfect for sorting out unwanted CTA enforcers in the dead of night.....for a price :wink:

You've never met Angela Shetty have you...??? :what:

[Lounge Lizard]

Actually no mate....

it's just a name that Ceroc has used for a move....

G... :cheers:phew.. :blush:
so I am at a new venue, I ask a lady if she is ok to do the shoulder drop (a move I have been teaching to 1000's of dancers since 1999), she says ok expecting the above move, next thing she is into a drop wondering what the hell is going on, has the word drop now got a well understood meaning within the MJ circuit, if so would it not be best to avoid using i to describe a simple shoulder catch or latch move?

[Gordon J Pownall]

phew.. :blush:
so I am at a new venue, I ask a lady if she is ok to do the shoulder drop (a move I have been teaching to 1000's of dancers since 1999), she says ok expecting the above move, next thing she is into a drop wondering what the hell is going on, has the word drop now got a well understood meaning within the MJ circuit, if so would it not be best to avoid using i to describe a simple shoulder catch or latch move?

It gets better mate...

The Ceroc First Move Dip has absolutely no dip, drop, seduction or aerobatics whatsoever - suss that one out.......


:eek: :confused: :eek: :confused:

[under par]

It gets better mate...

The Ceroc First Move Dip has absolutely no dip, drop, seduction or aerobatics whatsoever - suss that one out.......


:eek: :confused: :eek: :confused:

Sounds like a recipe for an injury or two!

:confused: :eek:

[Gordon J Pownall]

Sounds like a recipe for an injury or two!

:confused: :eek:

I know a very good insurance saleswoman........ :whistle:

[under par]

I know a very good insurance saleswoman........ :whistle:

Maybe CEROCtm should speak to her! :wink:

[Gus]

Dont know if I've got this right (tried an unsuccesfull search through the Forum to confirm), but are non-CTA teachers now allowed to teach Ceroc lessons? I'd hear that affiliates could now teach advanced/specialised lessons but I thought this was in addition to the usual class format. Could someone enlighten me. Just morbid curiosity.

[Andy McGregor]

Just morbid curiosity.

Or downright nosey :wink:

As far as I can make out, some franchisees are doing what they want - and will do so until they're told to stop.

It's like the wild west out there ...

[RobC]

Dont know if I've got this right (tried an unsuccesfull search through the Forum to confirm), but are non-CTA teachers now allowed to teach Ceroc lessons? I'd hear that affiliates could now teach advanced/specialised lessons but I thought this was in addition to the usual class format. Could someone enlighten me. Just morbid curiosity.
Well I can't speak for Ceroc HQ or other venues, but noone at Fleet has had any CTA training ...... :whistle:

[Gus]

Well I can't speak for Ceroc HQ or other venues, but noone at Fleet has had any CTA training ...... :whistle:

Don't fret .. that doesn't neccesarily make you a baaad person :wink:

[Gojive]

Indeed!...In fact I quite enjoyed your 'Improvers Class' on a Thursday Rob. IMHO, it filled a much needed gap, that was rarely exploited by traditional MJ/FJ/Ceroc setups :)

EDIT: Ooops! forgot to hit the "Quote" button! :blush:

[CJ]

Don't fret .. that doesn't neccesarily make you a baaad person :wink:

Just too old or ugly?!?

:whistle:

[Whitebeard]

Hi Andy,

I shall see if we can get a list of the new beginners moves on the Cerockent site

www.kordmusic.com

and webmaster of...

www.cerockent.com

:nice:

Why do I have to "Click (again!) to enter these sites"? It's very annoying!!. One click should take me straight there.

[MartinHarper]

Why do I have to "Click (again!) to enter these sites"?

Because they were designed by amateurs. :)

Bypass links, for your convenience...

http://www.kordmusic.com/km_main_jy.htm

http://www.cerockent.com/main.htm

[Whitebeard]

Because they were designed by amateurs. :)

Bypass links, for your convenience...

http://www.kordmusic.com/km_main_jy.htm

http://www.cerockent.com/main.htm
That figures. Although I'm an amateur myself I know better than that.

Just been perusing the Kidderminster and Worcester site. Do you have any hand in that?

Nice video, but it takes time on dial up.

[ChrisU]

Hi there !
4. The 25 'Classic Intermediate Moves'.

I'm not keen on the idea of doing as many as 2 of these 25 so-called 'Classic Intermediate Moves' per 'Intermediate Class'. As a 'leader', my feelings are that I want to learn as many new moves as possible to expand my repertoire. The normal situation is that during the 'Freestyle' sessions people dance each dance with a different partner. The ladies, or followers, therefore are not perhaps aware that a man, or leader, is doing the same dance with every lady that he dances with. While this is fine for the ladies it can become very boring for the man !

I have been going to Ceroc classes for nearly 2 years now and I have felt this for the entire time that I have been dancing.

I would like to see a greater variety of moves being taught rather than being restricted like this.

I feel that on the whole, the effects of these changes to the Ceroc class have the effect of bringing the overall level down for the benefit of the beginners. How do you intend to cater for the more advanced dancers who are not now being catered for so well ?

I'm afraid that this feedback may not be quite what you wanted to hear. However, it reflects my feelings. Also, from talking to fellow Ceroc dancers, I believe that my feelings also represent the feelings of many others who may be less willing to discuss how they feel. I hope that this feedback is of use to you.

What do you think ?

Hi Back.
Just a personal comment. Im at the end of begineers and at the start of intermediate. My first Intermediate class was teaching 2 variations of std intermediate moves. I didn't even know the move in the first place so a variation!!! I was lucky that there were several other "confused" types there.

And I am not going to blame teachers as such as most i have come across are great.

From my own experience there has to be some leeway to teaching the core intermeate moves even if its one per night. I was told that the best thing to do was go to a workshop. Not always a cheap option.

I am lucky in being a DJ. I have been collaring some of the regulars to teach me the core intermediates and now I get more from the class.

But I believe there is a gulf there and it's maybe why many leave after begineers.

Perhaps we need more ADVANCED classes.

Regards

DJ Chris Uren :wink:

[Andy McGregor]

Just a personal comment. Im at the end of begineers and at the start of intermediate. My first Intermediate class was teaching 2 variations of std intermediate moves. I didn't even know the move in the first place so a variation!!! I was lucky that there were several other "confused" types there.
I think Chris is completely right. If you're going to say that people need to do 6 beginners lessons before they do the intermediate lesson you do have to pitch the level of the intermediate lesson at dancers who've had 6 beginners lessons. I keep seeing intermediate lessons which are too hard for those newly moved up dancers - why?

[Gus]

I think Chris is completely right. If you're going to say that people need to do 6 beginners lessons before they do the intermediate lesson you do have to pitch the level of the intermediate lesson at dancers who've had 6 beginners lessons. I keep seeing intermediate lessons which are too hard for those newly moved up dancers - why?One reason is bacuase the teachers have egos and they want to pose on stage .... not nice but in some cases true.

The other reason is that if you have a second class of 100 (based on my classes at Bowden), you have about 15 new Intermediates, about 45 who've danced 6 - 12 months, about 30 with over a year's experience and about 10 who I'd rate as really good intermediates. How do you teach a single class that addresses all their needs? I like it at clubs when they put on an advanced lesson (like Greenwich and Surbiton) .... but the trouble then is you get some people in the advanced class who patently up to the standrad of the teaching.:sick:

[KatieR]

The other reason is that if you have a second class of 100 (based on my classes at Bowden), you have about 15 new Intermediates, about 45 who've danced 6 - 12 months, about 30 with over a year's experience and about 10 who I'd rate as really good intermediates. How do you teach a single class that addresses all their needs? I like it at clubs when they put on an advanced lesson (like Greenwich and Surbiton) .... but the trouble then is you get some people in the advanced class who patently up to the standrad of the teaching.:sick:

We have recently implemented having an Intromediate classes every two weeks and also are going to be having an Intromediate workshop once a month aimed at preparing new beginners and so they aren't totally stunned when they do go up to Intermediate

Im making the cakes... how did that happen??

if left unchecked our Intermediate routines can get a little difficult. But we do try and keep it to a level that new intermediate should be able to follow most of the time.

[ChrisU]

One reason is bacuase the teachers have egos and they want to pose on stage .... not nice but in some cases true.

The other reason is that if you have a second class of 100 (based on my classes at Bowden), you have about 15 new Intermediates, about 45 who've danced 6 - 12 months, about 30 with over a year's experience and about 10 who I'd rate as really good intermediates. How do you teach a single class that addresses all their needs? I like it at clubs when they put on an advanced lesson (like Greenwich and Surbiton) .... but the trouble then is you get some people in the advanced class who patently up to the standrad of the teaching.:sick:

Yep. But there will always be people who try out a Class to high for them. Its a difficult problem but one that needs addressing. Its a problem that the BUSINESS will have to address to survive in the very long term.

And im back to a point I hold dearly. Going MJing is a reasonably priced passtime that virtually anybody can afford. But additionals like Workshops etc are NOT CHEAP.

Regards from a VERY rain soaked Leeds.

DJ Chris Uren :wink:

[Gus]

Yep. But there will always be people who try out a Class to high for them. Its a difficult problem but one that needs addressing. Its a problem that the BUSINESS will have to address to survive in the very long term.Sorry ... no it doesn't! MJ is doing very well indeed as it is. Its got a market penetration of what ... say 10%? Masses of room to grow and no sign of its rate of uotake slowing down at the moment. The biggest threat it has is not enough teachers. No matter how annoying the current situation is, MJ is still infinitely more accesible than nearly any other form of dance, and that includes pogo-ing!

[Andy McGregor]

The other reason is that if you have a second class of 100 (based on my classes at Bowden), you have about 15 new Intermediates, about 45 who've danced 6 - 12 months, about 30 with over a year's experience and about 10 who I'd rate as really good intermediates. How do you teach a single class that addresses all their needs? However, there are hundreds of intermediate moves. I don't think the level if difficulty is a concern, you just need to teach them something new each week. There's enough moves to put together a lesson that's got something new for most of the dancers in the room without making the moves too hard.

In my opinion, we move people up from the beginners too soon. I think people should know all the beginners moves and have the basics of lead and follow before they move up. Once you have the basic technique of MJ you should be able to do any of the intermediate moves. My own opinion is that there are no advanced moves. All moves can be taught to intermediate dancers - however, some dancers will take longer than others to get them.

I'd love to have a test we give beginners before we promote them to intermediate. But I'm too chicken to do it :what: