Make Room, Make Room

[Gus]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
It was packed wall to wall with lovely dancers. BUT it was difficult to find them at the end of a track and when you had found a great partner you had to dance very small when the music was saying 'DANCE BIG'.

If this class was 10 miles away I'd be thinking it was fantastic. But it isn't worth a 165 mile round-trip to be banged into, kicked, trodden on and endure the frustration of glimpsing great dancers but never actually getting to dance with them:tears:

There have been a few threads echoing a similar theme, usually referring to some of the established nights down South. It seems a logical progression .. a good venue opens up that has all the attributes dancers want ... only to become a victim of its own popularity! I thin many of us have gone to venue (either party night or weekly class where there simply isn't room to dance safely or enjoyably. This is a dilemma constantly facing the Bowden weekly classes. So ... what do you do?

Blitz have taken a rather strategic view in opening another venue within travelling distance ... BUT .. its on a different night so only time will tell if it takes the pressure off the current nights. Personally, I've twice been in the position of having to close my doors. On the nights when I've had Viktor&Lydia and Amir .. I've had getting on for 250 dancers. I now know that 250 is the maximum for the dancers still be able to dance comfortably. However, I know venues which are about half Northwich's dance floor, yet crammed in similar numbers?:tears:

So ....(again) what do you do? My only view is that if I hit 250 then I have to close my doors ... and anyone turning up after that point either gets a free ticket to the next event ... but thats little comfort of you've travelled a fair distance. The only other alternative is to make it ticket only ... and accept that could hit my numbers by up to 30% .... or do franchisees just pack the ever complaining but always returning dancers in like sardines and comfort ourselves with the extra cash??

[bobgadjet]

Originally posted by Gus
So ....(again) what do you do? My only view is that if I hit 250 then I have to close my doors ... and anyone turning up after that point either gets a free ticket to the next event ... but thats little comfort of you've travelled a fair distance. The only other alternative is to make it ticket only ... and accept that could hit my numbers by up to 30% .... or do franchisees just pack the ever complaining but always returning dancers in like sardines and comfort ourselves with the extra cash??
Well, this afternoon I have now just read the second of your very controvertial threads.
You do like starting arguments, don't you :)
I think you are right to close your doors, but feel that should be BEFORE 250, unless your dancers are still comfortable with that number on the dancefloor. Others should do the same.
I think your "money" aspect will be short lived, as the numbers will drop if the dancers keep getting uncomfortable, and hurt.
Surely enough is enough, on the money side? Yes, you make more money with more people, but will it last?
If you had "ticket only" then you could pre-sell them the event before, and ALL dancers would know they would get a comfortable nights dancing.
If they are too late, they would turn up earlier next time, and so you guage your popularity when you get a queue before your opening time (wouldn't that be nice?)
Our venue last night has a HUGE number for the limits for insurance/fire aspect, but for a comfortable dance we were well overloaded as the dancefloor in the room we were in could only comfortable hold about 80-100 MJ/dancer's.
I think some may have left early lasst night due to not enough room to dance well.
IMO venues should have THREE numbers ratings, one for sit down meal events, one for purely disco, and others for formal dance forms.
What do others feel?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by bobgadjet
IMO venues should have THREE numbers ratings, one for sit down meal events, one for purely disco, and others for formal dance forms.
What do others feel?

At Great Bookham they go for half the maximum fire capacity. This was found by trial and error. He kept lowering the number of tickets he sold until the numbers were comfortable for the dancers.

It must be diffucult for organisers. From a business point of view, if a night is popular and it continues to be busy event after event there is a clear indication that the majority of customers are satisfied with the situation. Why should they limit numbers just because a few of us prefer a bit more room? If some people stop coming there's always others to take their place.

[bobgadjet]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Why should they limit numbers just because a few of us prefer a bit more room? If some people stop coming there's always others to take their place.
:confused: is that not a contradiction of terms:confused: or did I miss something :na:

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by bobgadjet
Well, this afternoon I have now just read the second of your very controvertial threads.
You do like starting arguments, don't you :)
I think you are right to close your doors, but feel that should be BEFORE 250, unless your dancers are still comfortable with that number on the dancefloor. Others should do the same.
I think your "money" aspect will be short lived, as the numbers will drop if the dancers keep getting uncomfortable, and hurt.
Surely enough is enough, on the money side? Yes, you make more money with more people, but will it last?
If you had "ticket only" then you could pre-sell them the event before, and ALL dancers would know they would get a comfortable nights dancing.
If they are too late, they would turn up earlier next time, and so you guage your popularity when you get a queue before your opening time (wouldn't that be nice?)
Our venue last night has a HUGE number for the limits for insurance/fire aspect, but for a comfortable dance we were well overloaded as the dancefloor in the room we were in could only comfortable hold about 80-100 MJ/dancer's.
I think some may have left early lasst night due to not enough room to dance well.
IMO venues should have THREE numbers ratings, one for sit down meal events, one for purely disco, and others for formal dance forms.
What do others feel?
Is it me?
what is controvertial - max capaity 250, if more than 250 dancers turn up, so they get turned away and offerd free pass to next dance.
I think if 250 is the limit then first come first served, but for organisers it is hard getting them in the first place so turning dancers away is hard.
Try booking theatre seats once it is 'full'
or
Unless it is Hipsters or a major event (masked ball) ticket sales only events are bad news, you would be unlikely to get dancers turning up on 'spec' without a ticket and if it had not been sold out in advance numbers would drop.
perhaps for a 250 capacity venue 150 tickets 100 otd, first come first served basis.

why catagorise a venue, and how do you suggest to do it...
take partner dances - Rock & Roll, Ballroom, Salsa, WCS, MJ, Lindy or blues all have different requirements and space.

[bobgadjet]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
why catagorise a venue, and how do you suggest to do it...
take partner dances - Rock & Roll, Ballroom, Salsa, WCS, MJ, Lindy or blues all have different requirements and space.
I know you have the experience of numbers required for different functions.:)
Isn't it strange that disco dancers feel less comfortable with small numbers on a seemingly large dancefloor. The dances you mention, in general, require more space than disco dancing, and a sit down meal function requires so much more space per person. The distinction was meant to be general.

I like your idea about part sell & part on door. That at least gives the "travellers" a chance. I personally try to be early if I am travelling some distance, and I would think other would also. Maybe organisers would take note of this excellent suggestion.
I think a 60% sell-40%OTD would be a good split.:cheers:

I like the idea of this thread & hope it produces more good ideas for organisers to try, to take account of growing numbers on the MJ scene:)

[Andy McGregor]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Why should they limit numbers just because a few of us prefer a bit more room? If some people stop coming there's always others to take their place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Originally posted by bobgadjet
:confused: is that not a contradiction of terms:confused: or did I miss something :na:

Maybe it's a circular argument:confused:

Basically, I can't see that a few of us staying away is going to bother the organiser of a busy/popular event. And I don't know the answer for the organiser. But I do have my own solution from the point of view of a humble dancer and that is to find somewhere where there's good music, room to dance, etc - and then keep it secret...:devil:

[Alfie]

[i]Originally posted by Andy McGregor
But I do have my own solution from the point of view of a humble dancer and that is to find somewhere where there's good music, room to dance, etc - and then keep it secret...:devil: [/B]

Blitz venue Jaguar sports and Social Club Radford in Coventry.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Alfie
Blitz venue Jaguar sports and Social Club Radford in Coventry.

The secrets out now...

[bobgadjet]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
The secrets out now... well keps :rofl:

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
The secrets out now... Oops, and I've already let out the secret about that regular charity event, which is regularly sold out and pre-booked.

Provided you have plenty of options on making your booking, email, telephone (including mobile numbers), text, (forget snail mail), and you can still book or get info up to about 6 on the evening the event is on, what is the problem with allowing it to be all pre-booked. (Like the one I've previously mentioned). If 40% of tickets are available on the door, but I was too late to get one of the 60% pre-booked tickets, I wouldn't bother turning up, in case I was too late on the door as well.

If you regularly sell out, make it all ticket/pre-booking, and make sure your info line is up to date if there are going to be spaces left on the night. OK it means more admin than just letting people in at the door, but it will create customer loyalty.

Greg

[bigdjiver]

Most venues are designed to be mult-purpose. Usually the purpose that has the biggest crowd is an audience watching a stage show. The fire exits are designed to let that maximum audience escape, and that sets the venue capacity. A MJ event should have some fraction of that for comfort.

[bobgadjet]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
The fire exits are designed to let that maximum audience escape,
It may be truer to state that the venue licence is base on the exit capacity of the venue. I don't know how they work it out, but that is what generally limits the numbers a hall is allowed to admit.

Foxylady posted on the Ashtons 7th thread that somebody told her to kick other people, as that's what they were doing to him.:angry:
If I only knew who that was I might be able to show him the error of his comments:whistle:

If that is the way a minority are willing to act we will look to have to enforce some sort of policy I would think.
Most sensible dancers can dance no matter how crowded the dancefloor is.
Perhaps etiquet should be included as part of the beginners classes, more so if the beginners class is full:)

[Gus]

Originally posted by bobgadjet
It may be truer to state that the venue licence is base on the exit capacity of the venue. I don't know how they work it out, but that is what generally limits the numbers a hall is allowed to admit.

Northwich has an official venue capacity of 478 ... but as an MJ venue I'd say the limit is 250 based on a dancefloor capacity of about 200. As a rule of thumb I look at a venues 'normal' capacity, then halve it for a MJ night.

[bobgadjet]

Originally posted by Gus
Northwich has an official venue capacity of 478 ... but as an MJ venue I'd say the limit is 250 based on a dancefloor capacity of about 200. As a rule of thumb I look at a venues 'normal' capacity, then halve it for a MJ night.
Very wise, and I bet, much appreciated.
:cheers:
Maybe we could rate certain venues with a "Kickability Level"

Those I have experience at, IMHO
Ashtons Nightclub, very busy, rating 9/10
Galty room, very busy, rating 6/10
Aran centre, very busy, 4/10
Bournemouth Pavilion, busy, 6/10
Fleet, very busy, 9/10
Watford, very busy, 8/10
Winning Post, very busy, 7/10
Casbah, full, ?/10

Hipsters ? let you know ! ! :)

[bobgadjet]

Oh, yes, nearly forgot
Chesham, very busy, 10/10
:tears:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by bobgadjet
Most sensible dancers can dance no matter how crowded the dancefloor is.

Only if the surrounding ones are also sensible. Which IME they are frequently not.

Chris

[Gus]

Originally posted by bobgadjet

Most sensible dancers can dance no matter how crowded the dancefloor is.


Sorry ... a sensible dancer would not get onto the floor if it is too crowded (IMHO)

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gus
Sorry ... a sensible dancer would not get onto the floor if it is too crowded (IMHO)

And if we were really sensible we wouldn't be dancing in the first place...

[bobgadjet]

Originally posted by Gus
Sorry ... a sensible dancer would not get onto the floor if it is too crowded (IMHO) Ah yes, point taken, but at some venues that would mean you would not get a dance till very late in the evening.....or would you leave and go elsewhere?

[bobgadjet]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
And if we were really sensible we wouldn't be dancing in the first place...
Can't agree with that one, sorry. :sad:

[DavidY]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
But I do have my own solution from the point of view of a humble dancer and that is to find somewhere where there's good music, room to dance, etc - and then keep it secret...:devil:
Answered thus by Alfie
Blitz venue Jaguar sports and Social Club Radford in Coventry. A bit too much of a secret - went to freestyle there last night and it was very quiet. :sad:

[Diane]

Originally posted by DavidY
A bit too much of a secret - went to freestyle there last night and it was very quiet. :sad:

The same has to be said of Leicester ceroc last night. Never known a freestyle so quiet.

There were quite a few dances in the area so dancers were spread thinly to say the least.

I did enjoy the evening though, Rob played good music:nice:

[Yogi_Bear]

Diane, are you busking in Leicester today with Emma and her cabaret?

[DavidY]

Originally posted by Diane
The same has to be said of Leicester ceroc last night. Never known a freestyle so quiet.

There were quite a few dances in the area so dancers were spread thinly to say the least.

I did enjoy the evening though, Rob played good music:nice: Yep, after going to that quiet freestyle in Coventry on Friday I thought at least there'd be a few more people at Leicester, but it would seem not.... I seem to have the knack of picking events that noone else is going to. :tears: (maybe because they know I'm coming :wink: :tears: )

Not a bad night though (in either case), but could perhaps have been better with more folk there.

[Diane]

Originally posted by Yogi_Bear
Diane, are you busking in Leicester today with Emma and her cabaret?

I'm not involved with the team, but had thought about going down to the Shires.
Not shy about dancing in public, been on lots of busks :clap:

[Gus]

Time to resurrect this thread again.

Was at a freestyle at the weekend. My three favourite female Ceroc teachers were there and many other wonderful dancers I aint seen for a while .... but the night was a disaster! Why? Simple ... couldn't get on the bl**dy dancefloor:angry: :angry: The venue has a dancefloor about half to a third the size of my Northwich venue. I reckon Northwich has a MJ capacity of around 250. This venue had about 180 in ... you don’t have to be a maths genius to work out that its was absolutely packed. Met David Y there and we grumbled a bit about it.

There is a real dilemma ... as a franchisee you want to pack them in to make lots of wonga ... BUT, is that fair on the paying public. I'm probably going to face the same dilemma myself. I've got a limit of 250 and have been close to that limit on a few occasions. As the club gets better known number are likely to increase so I've got three choices[list=1]
Keep on packing them in
Turn latecomers away at the door
Go all ticket
[/list=1]

None of these options are particularly palatable ... but what can you do?

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by Gus
There is a real dilemma ... as a franchisee you want to pack them in to make lots of wonga ... BUT, is that fair on the paying public. I'm probably going to face the same dilemma myself. I've got a limit of 250 and have been close to that limit on a few occasions. As the club gets better known number are likely to increase so I've got three choices[list=1]
Keep on packing them in
Turn latecomers away at the door
Go all ticket
[/list=1]

None of these options are particularly palatable ... but what can you do? I have just been to pictures - I would have been really p*ssed off if there were not enough seats and I had to stand through film
same applies to modern jive dancing there is a customer satisfaction level that should not be exceeded if 250 is the limit of the venue then only let 250 in

I have reached the point where I would rather sit out than dance on an overcrowded floor

[Alfie]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
[I have reached the point where I would rather sit out than dance on an overcrowded floor [/B]

Thats what the boss lady did all night on Saturday, she only danced three times and was badly trodden on twice. She is now limping with a nasty bruise on her foot.

It was exceedingly crowded but if alot of the dancers had been aware of those around them it would not have been so uncomfortable for everyone.

This is a general comment as I dont want to offend anyone but in five years of dancing I have heard very few teachers mention spacial awarness and never been taught a recomended technique for dancing on a crowded floor.

This was something we were taught at ballroom lessons very early on as we needed to avoid collisions and accidents whilst learning with couples of diferent abilities dancing diferent step patterns at diferent speeds.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Alfie
This is a general comment as I dont want to offend anyone but in five years of dancing I have heard very few teachers mention spacial awarness and never been taught a recomended technique for dancing on a crowded floor.

This was something we were taught at ballroom lessons very early on as we needed to avoid collisions and accidents....

Here, here!! What do the other teachers think? How should this be approached?

[DavidY]

Originally posted by Gus
I've got three choices[list=1]
Keep on packing them in
Turn latecomers away at the door
Go all ticket
[/list=1]

None of these options are particularly palatable ... but what can you do? It was too crowded on Saturday night and it's no fun trying to dance in such a small space.

From the punters' point of view, especially one like me who sometime travels a fair distance... If I had a ticket, at least I'd know that when I arrived I'd get in and hopefully have enough dancing space to make it worthwhile to travel. I'd be fed up if I'd driven 90 mins to be turned away.

However being distant would make it slightly more trouble to get hold of the ticket in the first place I guess.

On the floorcraft one, I do try to confine my dancing and look where I'm going, but I don't know how to avoid someone stepping back at the wrong time or doing something else unexpected - I think some collisions are fairly inevitable in such a crowded space.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by DavidY
It was too crowded on Saturday night and it's no fun trying to dance in such a small space.
:yeah:

Originally posted by DavidY
From the punters' point of view, especially one like me who sometime travels a fair distance... If I had a ticket, at least I'd know that when I arrived I'd get in and hopefully have enough dancing space to make it worthwhile to travel. I'd be fed up if I'd driven 90 mins to be turned away.

However being distant would make it slightly more trouble to get hold of the ticket in the first place I guess.
I once drove for over 2 hours with some friends to go to a dance at Minstead on a Friday night (leaving London!!). When we got there, we found out that there was a limit on the numbers, which had been reached, and hence we couldn't go in. There was also no ticket availability for subsequent months for people travelling from distance, so was just on a first-come, first-served basis. We haven't been back since.

It's a really difficult problem (but possibly a nice one from the person making the money's POV). If you live a distance away, then it might be difficult to obtain tickets. But presumably, you could ring the organiser, and reserve a space, so not insurmountable. I think that it's a good idea, if you are anticipating that level of demand. Provided that it's made really clear (on notices, on websites etc.) that it is an all-ticket affair, so that people don't turn up having not bought one. Of course, it's a lot more hassle for the organiser, which is why maybe it's not being done more often. They also run the risk of losing 'spur of the moment' customers too, which is why it's possibly not being done more often.

Originally posted by DavidY
On the floorcraft one, I do try to confine my dancing and look where I'm going, but I don't know how to avoid someone stepping back at the wrong time or doing something else unexpected - I think some collisions are fairly inevitable in such a crowded space. :yeah: They are. But a lot of people don't even consider it. Which is a major problem. It's not just the mans fault either. I've tried to dance 'small' at crowded dances sometimes, to have the lady I'm dancing with throw herself and her limbs about anyhow. Definitely more people need to be aware of their bodies on crowded dance floors.

Trampy

[Lynn]

Originally posted by Gus
three choices[list=1] Keep on packing them in
Turn latecomers away at the door
Go all ticket
[/list=1] I'm responsible this year for an annual ceilidh that in past years has had almost 1000 - way too many for the dance floor. The fire regulation on the venue is 1000 but that is for seated - I had thought of 600 but am now thinking of 500 or even less. I know we will be turning folk away - some folk are going to be disappointed and not get in, but better than getting in and not getting to dance or getting injured. I'm going for the ticket option, it seems to be the only way to control the numbers.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by TheTramp
It's not just the mans fault either. I've tried to dance 'small' at crowded dances sometimes, to have the lady I'm dancing with throw herself and her limbs about anyhow.I know the feeling. To be fair, although some ladies are self-propelled missiles, the majority are 'launched' by the men.

I went to a friend's house a couple of months ago. Their kids were playing with Beyblades (spinning tops that 'fight' each other). Perhaps we could get Hasbro (http://www.hasbro.com/beyblade/) to sponsor Hammersmith Town Hall, or Hipsters on Fridays.

David

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by DavidB
I know the feeling. Yeah. Probably when dancing with me :blush:

Trampy

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
I went to a friend's house a couple of months ago. Their kids were playing with Beyblades (spinning tops that 'fight' each other). Perhaps we could get Hasbro (http://www.hasbro.com/beyblade/) to sponsor Hammersmith Town Hall, or Hipsters on Fridays.

David

At least there would be no argument about who won! Hey, DavidB v Nigel "Beyblade" style ... wonder if we can get hold of the syndicate rights?:wink:

Seriously though, a dance organiser has a (implicit) duty of care. If they put too many people into the venue and there is an accident, who is accountable? The dancers for having a death wish to get on the floor or the Orhgnaiser for creating an unsafe environment. Also, if you go to venue and its too packed to dance, are you within your rights to demand your money back?

Further question, did we ever come out with a defintion of the requirement of square feet of dancefloor per dancer?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
Further question, did we ever come out with a defintion of the requirement of square feet of dancefloor per dancer? Dancing with square feet is very difficult, but you should not discriminate against anyone who is prepared to try.

[Liz]

Originally posted by Alfie

This is a general comment as I dont want to offend anyone but in five years of dancing I have heard very few teachers mention spacial awarness and never been taught a recomended technique for dancing on a crowded floor.

This was something we were taught at ballroom lessons very early on as we needed to avoid collisions and accidents whilst learning with couples of diferent abilities dancing diferent step patterns at diferent speeds.

I agree and think teachers could do more to point out some safety techniques when dancing on a crowded floor.

A man I danced with last week banged me on the head with his elbow really hard after he 'yanked' me under his arm. He never even apologised!

My next partner and I were dancing, when this same man stood on my partners heel so hard, he could not continue dancing and sat out for quite a few records after that. Again this 'rude' man never apologised.

This is one person I 'definitely' will not be dancing with again! :mad:

Some people are just dangerous!!

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Yeah. Probably when dancing with me :blush:
....... :yeah:

I estimated you two took up 1/4 of the room the other night.

:devil:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Liz
A man I danced with last week banged me on the head with his elbow really hard after he 'yanked' me under his arm. He never even apologised!
Was he aware of the fact that he'd yanked you and then banged you? Did you say anything?

I've said on another thread that ladies tolerate too much from the pervs on the dancefloor. And I think it's probably even more true where yankers are concerned.

Ladies, if you put up with pain and say nothing, then the guys that perpetrate this behaviour simply will not learn.

Yes of course they should be aware - and some of us are acutely so of the slightest untoward bump that takes place.

But plenty of guys aren't - or don't care if they are.

The ones that hurt you should be made aware of the fact. If they are basically decent chaps, they will be very apologetic and will try and improve. If they are gits, and react as if you're the one in the wrong, or as if they don't care, well, why are you worrying about what they think anyway?

Chris

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by ChrisA
....... :yeah:

I estimated you two took up 1/4 of the room the other night.

:devil: Yeah. But we were fantastic though, weren't we?!? :whistle:

Trampy

[Liz]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Was he aware of the fact that he'd yanked you and then banged you? Did you say anything?

I've said on another thread that ladies tolerate too much from the pervs on the dancefloor. And I think it's probably even more true where yankers are concerned.

Ladies, if you put up with pain and say nothing, then the guys that perpetrate this behaviour simply will not learn.

Yes of course they should be aware - and some of us are acutely so of the slightest untoward bump that takes place.

But plenty of guys aren't - or don't care if they are.

The ones that hurt you should be made aware of the fact. If they are basically decent chaps, they will be very apologetic and will try and improve. If they are gits, and react as if you're the one in the wrong, or as if they don't care, well, why are you worrying about what they think anyway?

Chris
You are right Chris, I should have said something to the guy - but I expected he would apologise. When he didn't, the moment had gone to say anything to him and the dance was nearing the end!

I think he was just a clumsy and insensitive partner, even though he has been dancing for a few years. I'll put it down to experience and make sure it's one not to be repeated!! :(

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by TheTramp
But presumably, you could ring the organiser, and reserve a space, so not insurmountable. I'm sure I've mentioned this one before. My favourite monthly dance sells out every month. It is only a small venue, taking about 150. After moans about overcrowding for previous dances, the organiser introduced strict limits. Reservations are made up front in person, by email, or by phone (but no cash is required). On the night you have to arrive by a certain time, otherwise your place can go to someone who does turn up at the door. Inevitably there will be one or two that reserve and don't turn up, but persistent offenders are unlikely to get future reservations, and it is too good a night for people to risk missing out.

I'm sure this must be plenty of work for the organiser, as inevitably there will be lots of last minute phone calls, but the system works well, everyone knows where they stand, and the venue is never overcrowded.

Greg