How has Scottish Dancing Improved?

[Gus]

{ODA Posting}

"Over the last 18 months the quality of Ceroc Scotland dancers has improved beyond recognition. This advancement is far above dvancement is any other region of the UK. Is this due to the Ceroc teachers, visiting teachers, inspirational dancers or other factors"

Discuss

[Gadget]

Perhaps the perceived improvement is due to the 'starting point' being of a lower level than other areas of the UK: MJ and Ceroc in particular are new to the scottish people - there was no background to draw 'ready made improvers' from.

Perhaps it's that a lot of the 'regular' scottish people are now considering entering competitions and caberets - as their level of dedication and interest has increased, so has the level of dancing.

Perhaps the Scottish attitude of openness and willingness/eagerness to share has improved communication and learning between the dancers; improving as part of a group rather than as an individual.

Perhaps it's just the 'drop-out' rate is lower here: more people staywith Ceroc and learn more, therefore improve move.

Perhaps events, visits, workshops and holidays with/from legendary dancers have given a spark to the dancers that encourage them to grow.

Perhaps the person making the statement is comparing the wrong things: a few poor dances 18months ago compared to a few excelent dances now would give the illusion of massive improvement.

Perhaps everywhere is improving - it's just that Scotland is highlighted because it is not a regular stomping ground for the person making the statement: you rareley notice slow improvement/growth if you are in the center of it and see it every day.

Perhaps it's just the person making the statement who's dancing has degraded in the last 18 months? :wink:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Gadget
Perhaps the person making the statement is comparing the wrong things: a few poor dances 18months ago compared to a few excelent dances now would give the illusion of massive improvement.

Naahh ... the dancing wasn't that bad ... in fact it was nice but ther were few advanced dancers ... probably only Bill and Fran at that point ... though lots of people 'on the verge'. 'Suddenly' the Scots took the UK by storm, superb Team Cabarets and now in addition to Bill and Fran there are the likes of Sheena, Dave Hancock, DS and partner, Brady, Lisa (:drool: ), FC and James etc. etc. etc.




Perhaps it's just the person making the statement who's dancing has degraded in the last 18 months? :wink:

Won't argue with that:( 18 months ago I would step onto the floor without a care ... now I think I'd feel a bit intimidated up North. But thats GOOD .... there will always be new dancers coming through and passing the previous set of dancers. I still like teaching and hope to be able to make a contribution there ... but now its more a case of encouraging from behind than leading from in front (ok ...nearish the front ... sort of:wink: )

Other point ... I'm comparing the improvement to the North West and Midlands. Have'nt seen much change over the last year .... and if the question is asked as to how Scotland is improved ... maybe the teachers and franchisees in my areas need to ask themselves who is to balme for our dancers not improving:sick:

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gus
{ODA Posting}

"Over the last 18 months the quality of Ceroc Scotland dancers has improved beyond recognition. This advancement is far above dvancement is any other region of the UK. Is this due to the Ceroc teachers, visiting teachers, inspirational dancers or other factors"

Discuss

we might be slow starters but we catch on pretty quickly !!!!!:na:

As Gadget says , many Cerocers stay with it and there's little real competition -on a regualr basis across the country and where there is dancers tend to go along to other events.

I think tribute has to be paid to Franck, Lorna, Lisa, Scot, Elaine, Obi, Kathy, Alison and Mairi who are all great teachers and to the visiting teachers who have made it up to Scotland. We have all learned a great deal from the likes of Nigel & Nina, Adam, David and Lily, Viktor, Gus & Helen and others.

We are also forunate to have a great many very talented and 'natural' dancers up north - most of whom are female. I think also the enthusiasm has been fuelled by attending the Ceroc champ, especially Blackpool and of course our own Scottish comp. Last year people were just buzzing before and after Blackpool and when they see friends winning competitions, or even being placed it spurs them on.

Last year at Blackpool the Scots came first and second in the team event, won the Seniors and came second in the double trouble as well as having finalists in other categories. At London they were less successful but still made an impression.

I don't think there's any one simple answer but a combination of factors. We still don't have anyone here to rival the likes of C & J or any of the very top dancers down south ( whether they be English or Australian!) but in time I think we will have more finalists, especially in the Intermediate and the team events. And seeing Lynsey, Karen and Yvonne dancing together maybe even greater representation in the double trouble :wink:

[Gadget]

Another factor may be that most of the 'advancing improvers' are prepared to regulary travel outside of their local venue - this gives a huge variety of teachers and people to dance with: must be another possability.

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Gadget
more people stay with Ceroc and *learn* more, therefore improve move.
Really? Ceroc has a bad reputation exactly because it does NOT develop dancers over time (unless you regard a "better" dancer as someone who know lots of moves). But that's another thread and we've discussed it before.....

I think the quality of Scottish dancing has improved dramatically primarily because people have gained so much confidence. This has happened mainly through success at competitions, but also through exposure to people who go there and do workshops.

J :nice:

[Bill]

Originally posted by Jayne

I think the quality of Scottish dancing has improved dramatically primarily because people have gained so much confidence. This has happened mainly through success at competitions, but also through exposure to people who go there and do workshops.

J :nice:

Good point and I think that's what I got from my visit to Beach Boogie a couple of years ago. It didn't make me a better dancer though it helped but it did make me feel more confident about certain moves and taking dancing into the direction I felt was more 'natural' for me.

Certainly no lack of confidence amongst many dancers up here now.

Maybe the standard up here is beginning to reach that of areas down south. There are still more 'top' dancers down in England but there's more folk up here who could hold their own at many clubs down south.

[Gadget]

origionally posted by Jayne

Originally posted by Gadget
more people stay with Ceroc and *learn* more, therefore improve move.
Really? Ceroc has a bad reputation exactly because it does NOT develop dancers over time (unless you regard a "better" dancer as someone who know lots of moves).
I think that it's possably the difference between passive learning and active learning - we don't just show up and expect to learn just by being there. My argument was that if you attend more, you will learn more. The reputation for offering nothing to the more advanced dancer has been gained in England - we have yet to prove it true up here.
Perhaps Ceroc is evolving to accomodate the better dancers at the same rate as the Scottish dancers are ready for it? So is Ceroc evolving to accomodate us, or are we evolving to take advantage of what Ceroc has to offer?

Re confidence: does being a good dancer breed confidence, or does the confidence breed a good dancer? chicken and egg argument that does not really answer the question.

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Gadget
Re confidence: does being a good dancer breed confidence, or does the confidence breed a good dancer? chicken and egg argument that does not really answer the question.
IMO you need confidence before you can be a good dancer (certainly in terms of aesthetics).

HOWEVER, not all confident dancers are good dancers.

J :nice:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Bill
Maybe the standard up here is beginning to reach that of areas down south. There are still more 'top' dancers down in England but there's more folk up here who could hold their own at many clubs down south.

Lets make a comparison then.

Scotland: 7 Ceroc nights, 4 (?) LeRoc nights + ? independants

NWest: 4 Blitz, 2 Ceroc, 2 Le Swing, 2 Swing Roc , 2 Dance NWest, 5 Independants

Scotland Advanced Dancers: about 10
NWest: about 10

HOWEVER .... 3 of the NWest are recent imports AND there is no one on the North West list who wouldnt have been on it 18 months ago:sick:

(IMHO)

[Gus]

Originally posted by Bill
I think tribute has to be paid to Franck, Lorna, Lisa, Scot, Elaine, Obi, Kathy, Alison and Mairi who are all great teachers OK ... PLEASE DON’T TAKE THIS PERSONALLY but...:devil: :devil:

I don’t think the 'competitive advantage' is that the Ceroc Scotland teachers are better Ceroc teachers than the rest of the UK. They are pretty damn good ... but to be honest that is what you would expect from CTA graduates.

Where I think they do differentiate themselves is in their enthusiasm ... and this forms the basis for my pet theory about Scottish success. the Scots want to learn and love to dance. I don’t think I've seen it anywhere else to such a degree. I think that all us foreigners who have visited have been similarly enthused.

Whether the dancer's enthusiasm comes form the teachers or it is a generic Scottish phenomena ... who knows ... all I do know that the Scottish CTA take their role to heart and the success at the Champs is evidence of that.:grin:

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by Jayne
HOWEVER, not all confident dancers are good dancers.
Absolutely :yeah: confidence does NOT make a good dancer and we have a few of them around !

back on thread :-

About 3/4 years ago I was a regular to the Scottish MJ scene, I was working for Refreshire & North Ayrshire Councils and staying with my friend James Hashmi

At that time IMHO James was by far one of the best dancers that I had met in Scotland and when we danced together people stopped and watched - it felt amazing :clap:

However, 3 years on, even though I think I have improved, I am definitely only average compared with the amazing dancers that are there now :cheers:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Jayne
HOWEVER, not all confident dancers are good dancers.
Yep. There are a lot of intermediate dancers, and I was one such, who could do with getting a lot less confident before they start to get more confident again.

It wasn't until I took a MASSIVE blow to my confidence that I realised that my leading ability wasn't as hot as I'd thought, and started to actually improve, rather than blaming the followers.

But hey, I'm getting really confident now that I've moved up from "amoeba" to "mollusc" on the dance evolutionary scale. Hoping one day to even reach "vertebrate".

:cheers:

Chris

[fruitcake]

Hmmmm!
Am I the only one on the forum who's not obsessed by ceroc/mj dancing- I love it, but I aint obsessed,
SILLY me, thought the thread was about Scottish Dancing, as in Ceilidh, Dashing white Sergent(however its spelt),gay gordons, eightsome reel, strip the willow, etc, and yes i can do all of the above.
I thought ,are we havin a Scottish dance night at ceroc-fit rare!!!!
fruitcake

[Heather]

Originally posted by Bill
we might be slow starters but we catch on pretty quickly !!!!!:na:

Last year at Blackpool the Scots came first and second in the team event, won the Seniors and came second in the double trouble as well as having finalists in other categories.

:wink:


If senile dementia has not already set in Bill, I think you might remember that the Scots also took third place in the Double Trouble as well ( Brady, Melanie and myself).

:hug:
Heather,
X

[Gus]

Originally posted by Heather
If senile dementia has not already set in Bill, I think you might remember that the Scots also took third place in the Double Trouble as well ( Brady, Melanie and myself).


How could we forget those lovely white sailors outfits?:grin:

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Gus
How could we forget those lovely white sailors outfits?:grin:
Quite easily, if you were in the half of the audience watching the three ladies in school uniform throughout...:wink:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Stuart M
Quite easily, if you were in the half of the audience watching the three ladies in school uniform throughout...:wink:

GET YOUR FILTHY EYES OFF!!!! They were all from my old club ... Rachel, Sarah and ????? (oops). All about 18 (doesn't that make you feel old) ... and there is no truth that I've managed to wear out the DVD on the bit where they are dancing.

Sarah is now teaching for Blitz at Leeds ... same venue as Helen Z ... makes the place worth a visit if nothing else:drool:

These bunch frequent the likes of Stockport and Northwich ... so you know where to come:wink:

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Gus
These bunch frequent the likes of Stockport and Northwich ... so you know where to come:wink:
Funny you should say that as I hope to take a trip down that way later this year. Will aim to get to the Scots on Tour (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=49693#post49693) thing, if I can survive May at work!

[Bill]

Originally posted by Heather
If senile dementia has not already set in Bill, I think you might remember that the Scots also took third place in the Double Trouble as well ( Brady, Melanie and myself).

:hug:
Heather,
X


how could I forget :sick: ..............and of course you and Sheena did very well in the Intermediate with partners you'd hardly ever seen, let alone danced with :flower:

Can this year possibly be as good as last year ?????

As for Gus's point. Are we more enthusiastic up here? Is is a combination of the teachers and the desire to learn from the 'punters' ??

And as for confidence and good dancers............... there are quite a number of confident dancers or individuals who are not cecessarily good dancers and some great dancers who lack confidence and don't realise how good they are.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Bill
....and some great dancers who lack confidence and don't realise how good they are.

It never ceases to amaze me how some of the nicest dancers you meet are genuinely shocked when you say how good they are. True modesty is a virtue to be lauded.:grin:

[Heather]

:sick: :sick: ......I can't get a partner for the Intermediate, Brady has a new partner (his girlfriend) and the Lovely Dale has got himself a fellow Londoner for a partner!!:sad: :sad:
Looks like it's 'Dance with a stranger' and Team cabaret only, this time round unless I get any offers!!!

:hug:
Heather,
XX

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Gus
{ODA Posting}

"Over the last 18 months the quality of Ceroc Scotland dancers has improved beyond recognition. This advancement is far above dvancement is any other region of the UK. Is this due to the Ceroc teachers, visiting teachers, inspirational dancers or other factors"

Discuss
Looking back to your original quote, Gus, I wouldn't say it's improved beyond recognition - improvement certainly, and a couple of dancers have gone to an advanced level, but the overall standard is only a bit higher. Plus it must be said, at least 3 excellent dancers have been lost to the south in the past 18 months.

The increase in "star" teacher workshops and the feelgood factor from cabaret wins, etc. are important factors however. And the sense of community fostered by this Forum has played a part too. It's great knowing I could turn up in Dundee, Perth, Edinburgh and feel right at home :nice: