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View Full Version : Camcorders - are they an intrusion?



Dan
26th-January-2004, 06:57 PM
A couple of months ago, I was astonished to find a relative beginner pointing a camcorder at me during a dance and filming my dancing. When he saw me noticing, he put it away and then took it out surrepticiously to continue filming before moving on to other dancers that interested him. I was not comfortable with this but then thought that everyone has to learn somehow and ignored it. A week ago, at Ashtons I saw a guy who has been dancing for years stand by the stage and point his camcorder at the dancing couples. David and Lilly B, Viktor were among those present on the night.

At best, I think that this is an invasion of privacy. At worst it is a declaration that he will analyse the moves for plagiarism. Whilst in my case the ultimate fear is that I will appear on some "you have been framed programme", I imagine that the really good dancers who are trying to earn a living from teaching and instruction videos may have something to say about their "film rights".

What are your views on this. Irrespective of your dancing ability, do you want to end up on someone's home video without your knowledge?


:confused: :mad:

Mikey
26th-January-2004, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Andr

What are your views on this. Irrespective of your dancing ability, do you want to end up on someone's home video without your knowledge?
:confused: :mad:

Well, on the topic of filming and "without your knowledge" it's a sore point for me.. :sad: which i will air in another thread...


Regards taping in public events, unless it is banned in the venue not much can be done about it.. but if your a dancer of reasonable standard then take it as a compliment that a person feels your worth taping.. if you later appear on you've been framed then contact the program and sue the buggers for your rightfull £250 quid.....
:rofl:

DavidB
26th-January-2004, 08:11 PM
This is annoying, and does seem to be happening more and more.

I'm usually quite happy to show someone an individual move. I'm also quite happy for someone to video a workshop routine after we have finished teaching (assuming there is no official video being produced.) And we have always allowed people to video our routines.

But I don't like being videoed when doing freestyle. It is a social dance, not a public performance. I would expect to get asked in advance, and for my partner to get asked as well. Otherwise I'll move out of the way, or just do beginners' moves.

David

Jon L
26th-January-2004, 10:40 PM
Yes i am not too sure whether I feel comfortable with someone shooting a camcorder at me, so i could well understand people becoming annoyed at this.

It is interesting that when we do Bognor, Camber etc. It says when you book 'You agree that you may be filmed etc.' and indeed a few of the camera team come round with the camera's

Mikey
26th-January-2004, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by Jon L

It is interesting that when we do Bognor, Camber etc. It says when you book 'You agree that you may be filmed etc.' and indeed a few of the camera team come round with the camera's

Sadly Jon , that little disclaimer is not worth the paper it's written on as i discovered.. i covered it in my reply earlier on in the shape of things to come thread:sad:

ChrisA
27th-January-2004, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by DavidB
This is annoying, and does seem to be happening more and more.

I now know who the cameraman is that Andr is referring to, and in this particular case I suspect (pending further evidence) the intentions are honorable.

However, this takes nothing from the facts that:

- people videoing should, as a matter of common courtesy, get permission before they start

- people being videoed have the right to go up to the cameraman (during filming - why not? :devil: ) and make it clear that they don't want to be filmed.

Chris

Dan
27th-January-2004, 02:12 AM
Originally posted by Mikey
Sadly Jon , that little disclaimer is not worth the paper it's written on as i discovered.. i covered it in my reply earlier on in the shape of things to come thread:sad:

Mikey, I have read the thread that you are referring to. Sorry that you and Franco have been victims of hypocrites or as Chris suggests people who have since fallen out with their dance partners. I cannot say that I am a great follower of yours but at least you are very open about what you do and no one can possibly plead ignorance about attending your classes (and they are extremely popular). If the hypocrites have changed their minds, then they are should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves for ruining it for a lot of people including Franco.

Back on thread - Apart from the SS class, the organisers clearly warn camera shy people about the filming at Camber and Bognor, fair enough. These people, like me can very simply avoid dancing in front of the filming unit.

Unlike the "odd" person with his camcorder homing in on unsuspecting dancers. What's next ?? filming the attractive young girls, or may be the blues room ??

They should ask before they shoot.

Franck
27th-January-2004, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by Andr
Unlike the "odd" person with his camcorder homing in on unsuspecting dancers. What's next ?? filming the attractive young girls, or may be the blues room ??

They should ask before they shoot. Yes, I totally agree, and I have asked people to stop using a camcorder several times in the past, even at a venue where I wasn't the organizer, but just a visitor.

I think filming people at a dance night is plain rude, and majorly off-putting for dancers, especially beginners.

I would also apply the same rule to photography, with the exception of a group of friends clearly taking snaps of each other...

Gus
27th-January-2004, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Franck
I think filming people at a dance night is plain rude, and majorly off-putting for dancers, especially beginners.


I seem to remeber on the original Ceroc membership form (circa '96) it specificaly banned people from photography/videoing at a Ceroc venue ... or did I just imagine that?

Mikey
27th-January-2004, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Gus
I seem to remeber on the original Ceroc membership form (circa '96) it specificaly banned people from photography/videoing at a Ceroc venue ... or did I just imagine that?
You imagined correctly from my memorie too.. i think Ceroc had that there to stop individuals filmimg or photographing the actual classes in general...

jiveclone
27th-January-2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Gus
I seem to remeber on the original Ceroc membership form (circa '96) it specificaly banned people from photography/videoing at a Ceroc venue ... or did I just imagine that?

There isn't anything about photography/videoing on the circa '94 Ceroc membership form.

Geordieed
27th-January-2004, 02:59 PM
I agree that it is quite rude and intrusive. In any other surrounding when in a social situation it would become clear how rude it is. I have experienced the same with people taking photographs while social dancing and feel that the same rule applies.

I experienced the same while in a competition. While in my first heat I caught the site of someone coming right around the dancefloor and to the front of the crowd to take a picture. As much as anything having a flash of light when you are dancing in a competition does smack of irresponsible. Fortunately being in the first round had my partner and I concentrating on what we were there to do. (ie Not bomb out in the first round).

Made the quarter finals thankfully.

DavidB
27th-January-2004, 03:42 PM
Taking photos in competition.

I think I've taken photos of Ed in competition, so may well be the person he is talking about. Sorry Ed :sorry :sorry .

I've taken loads of photos at competitions. I do it purely for fun, and usually just take photos of people I know. I then spend the next few weeks trying to find everyone to give them copies of the photos. It gives me something to do after getting knocked out of the DWAS.

There is usually an official photographer as well, and loads of people taking photos of their friends. My distinction is that a competition (like a cabaret) is not a private social dance, but a public performance. However I fully understand that other people may not make this distinction, and that they might find it intrusive or annoying.

I'll probably be taking my camera up to Blackpool again this year, and don't want to upset anyone else. Should I only photograph people I've asked, or who have asked me? Or should I just avoid taking photos of anyone who has asked me not to?

David

Divissima
27th-January-2004, 04:19 PM
DavidB, I want to reply to this thread in greater length when I have time to put it all down, but in the interim I want to say how much I've really appreciated you (and others, particularly Debstar) taking photos of me and TwK in competitions. I guess it's a personal thing, but I don't notice any camera flashes while I'm dancing, my mind is too focused and the adrenalin is pumping hard! I appreciate it might not be the same for everyone, though.

Geordieed
27th-January-2004, 04:25 PM
:cheers: No worries David I had forgotten that you were walking around with your camera on the day of those champs. The experience I was referring to was before then. In fact I was so unaware that you were taking shots that I only realised when I saw you later and you were walking around with a camera around your neck. What ever technique you were using seemed to work.

The experience that I mentioned before did catch my attention and having a camera flash next to you while you were dancing in a competition is a little unsporting.

I remember you took a nice shot of my then partner and always wanted a copy. Unfortunately she can't make the same commitments to dancing as before and I would love a momento of that day. You don't think you might be able to help...

Geordieed
27th-January-2004, 04:33 PM
:cheers: Ah I forgot to say I would never mind you taking shots of me dancing in the future. Mind you if the truth be known I think my partner at that time used to get 100% of the attention (no complaints). And rightly so.

Anyone who went to the Ceroc champs or Blackpool last year would have seen us competing together would recall what a stunning impact she did make on a dancefloor.

Mary
28th-January-2004, 11:49 AM
Bit of a toughy this one, and there is a fine line to draw. Taking photos at an event as a momento of the day - like holiday snaps - I think is fine. Quite often, at a later date someone might say "oh, I was there at that event and I have a great picture with you in it, do you want a copy?" If a picture taken then becomes for publication, as on a website or for promotion, then the subjects permission must be obtained.

Taking videos is a more grey area. Again, they can be as a momento of the day. If this is the case then the official video (if there is one) should suffice - despite the quality. Videoing a class, or cabaret performance it would strike me that it would be a courtesy if nothing else to ask first. Maybe it might not be possible to ask first in the case of a cabaret, but at least have the courtesy to approach the performers afterwards and maybe offer a copy for them. Again, this should all be for personal consumption, as it were.

When is comes to plagiarism of moves, have many of us have bought the official video and then nicked cool moves from other couples, or adapted them?

Then there's that thorny issue of private videoing at competitions. I would like to have myself and my partner videoed so I can see how I have performed and how I can improve. I always buy the official video (so no one is losing out), but seeing myself perform for odd snatches totaling seconds over a period of 5 rounds (Hammersmith), and having a whole round I was in not on the video at all (Blackpool), when there were only 3 rounds, is about as much use as a chocolate teapot!! But that's touched on in another thread. BTW, videoing a practise session, while useful in itself, is not the same as seeing how you perform on the day under pressure with other couples around you!

Personally, I prefer not to do any videoing as I like to watch a performance in real life and not through a lens!

Video is still a relatively new tool, and, as children brought up to learn when to say "please" and "thank you", and what side of the lady a man should walk, and other forms of etiquette, video etiquette has not been properly formulated as yet, so has not been taught from an early age. I know I must have broken some video etiquette rules, but I have become more aware of what is and isn't acceptable as time goes by.

OK, serious mode off now.

M

Martin
28th-January-2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
This is annoying, and does seem to be happening more and more.

I'm usually quite happy to show someone an individual move. I'm also quite happy for someone to video a workshop routine after we have finished teaching (assuming there is no official video being produced.) And we have always allowed people to video our routines.

But I don't like being videoed when doing freestyle. It is a social dance, not a public performance. I would expect to get asked in advance, and for my partner to get asked as well. Otherwise I'll move out of the way, or just do beginners' moves.

David

I am no Oracle, however, myself I do exactly what David does, stick to basics THEN in addition after the dance, I ask the person not to film me social dancing. It does spoil my enjoyment of the evening.

Sometimes I will ask to be filmed as it is a good tool to analyse your dancing. That does not mean they can do it anytime.

People pay good money to go to venues to get away from the stresses and strains of the day, not to add to them.

If a picture taken then becomes for publication, as on a website or for promotion, then the subjects permission must be obtained. - From Mary.

A very good point which I did question on another thread about 2 Aussies being featured in a UK home page, one as the central figure.
The answer I got was that the "photographers" permission was granted and this was all that was needed.:blush:

It can be intrusive on the photo front depending on the intention of the photographer, in 2001 we did a "big" routine with lifts et al. Someone did close up "crutch" shots of the girls at oppertune moments and then gleefully showed then around.
He was duly delt with as soon as I found out - not good though:really: :really:

Not in any way suggesting the Oracles lense would stoop so low

Divissima
29th-January-2004, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Martin:
If a picture taken then becomes for publication, as on a website or for promotion, then the subjects permission must be obtained. - From Mary.

A very good point which I did question on another thread about 2 Aussies being featured in a UK home page, one as the central figure.
The answer I got was that the "photographers" permission was granted and this was all that was needed.I think this depends on whether you are talking from the point of view of courtesy or the legal position. I have never practised in the field of Intellectual Property so am happy to be corrected, but my understanding is that the rights in an image belong to the creator (in this instance, the photographer). The subjects have no rights over reproduction or publication of the image (unless agreed with the photographer). It is difficult to see how an individual could challenge the publication of a photo depicting them - maybe as invasion of privacy, but I doubt this would stand up, particularly if it was taken at a public event.

On the occasions that I have taken photos for publication, it has been at the request of the subjects, but I don't believe that I would need their permission to publish them somewhere else. However if it was practical do do so, and out of courtesy, I would probably ask them anyway before doing so.

Happy to be corrected... :waycool:

Geordieed
29th-January-2004, 02:51 PM
At the end of last year I attended an evening which was specifically put together as a commercial photographic shoot. We were told that any shots taken could be used for the inside book for a CD to be released this year. Before we could get anywhere near a dancefloor we were all asked to sign and supply our details on a document that had been prepared. How legal this is I don't know.

I know that some members out there have been fortunate enough to be extras in a few things that the BBC have put together. Did anyone there get you to sign anything.

Martin
29th-January-2004, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Divissima
I think this depends on whether you are talking from the point of view of courtesy or the legal position. I have never practised in the field of Intellectual Property so am happy to be corrected, but my understanding is that the rights in an image belong to the creator (in this instance, the photographer). The subjects have no rights over reproduction or publication of the image (unless agreed with the photographer). It is difficult to see how an individual could challenge the publication of a photo depicting them - maybe as invasion of privacy, but I doubt this would stand up, particularly if it was taken at a public event.

On the occasions that I have taken photos for publication, it has been at the request of the subjects, but I don't believe that I would need their permission to publish them somewhere else. However if it was practical do do so, and out of courtesy, I would probably ask them anyway before doing so.

Happy to be corrected... :waycool:

I am sure you are right and that is what is so sad.

Someone takes a photo of you - it gets posted and you become associated with that mag, paper, book or event. No consideration of the subject involved.

I had a problem a while ago (on the subject of association) where a dance organiser in the South east, asked me to teach one or two of his classes. I did not like the guy personally so I asked a high price, he said no, but later said yes. Only when I found out that he was using my name to encorage demoers and Taxi dancers to attend on the pretence that I was "with him" did I then decline all association.

The comments I got was "he seemed creepy but as you are involved I said yes"

For futher details I am sure you can ask Andy Mc of his fave person in the south east...