The nature of competition

[Scot]

I must confess I do not come on to this forum too much primarily due to other commitments in my life. However on occasion, where I have followed a thread I have usually been surprised by the degree of realism and pragmatism that is applied to various answers.

So thought I would share this with you and poll you all for your viewpoint as I will be genuinely intrigued by your response.

Before I get to the heart of my issue if we assume the premise that for any business sector there are only so many consumers and as a consumer where a choice exists a customer will often choose one over the other.

So as an analogy if a consumer shops in Tescos on a Saturday he/she is less likely to go to Safeways as there is probably not the need. Now irrespective of whether Safeways or Tescos is better, probably little in it, Tescos is competing with Safeways. However for certain consumers they may well go to both. In fairness to both stores, both actively participate in marketing to attract new customers. Thus the decision to shop in one store or the other is a matter of personal preference and as such is the nature of competition. However the point stands that for a limited market where both stores exist the chances of people going to both lessens. The same is true of the jive world where more than one event exists people will often make the choice to go to one or the other some will of course go to both.

Now if we stick with the Store analogy, a relatively new player appears on the scene who decides that the best form of marketing is not to try and attract new customers as this is expensive and less prone to success but instead directly targets the existing stores for their customer base, while at the same time assuring the exiting stores that they will not carry out any direct canvassing.

Now one day the store manager of Tescos or Safeways comes out to find that the new player is standing at his exit handing out promotional material for their store despite previous assurances that they would not do this.

My questions are this

A. Does the Store Manager have the right to be annoyed or is he just being petty.
B. If he has the right to be annoyed should he do something about it? If so what and how far should he go? Assurances have already been given but now broken so mutual respect seems not to be an option.

What would you do …

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Scot
My questions are this

A. Does the Store Manager have the right to be annoyed or is he just being petty.
B. If he has the right to be annoyed should he do something about it? If so what and how far should he go? Assurances have already been given but now broken so mutual respect seems not to be an option.

Interesting topic.

The analogy is clear, I think, so I'll bring it back to dance if you don't mind..

I'm not a dance venue organiser, just a dancer, so personally I'd be pleased to get information about another venue.

If it's a different night, great - as an obsessive, the more the better.

If it's the same night, then all other things being equal (travel time for instance) I might give it a go, and compare the experiences. In London some of the good venues are too packed for dancing to be as fun as it can be, so I'd be happy to have more choice.

From the organiser's POV, I can understand them being miffed.

But at the end of the day, secrecy achieves nothing. Word will get around, and the overriding factor will be which night is better.

Better teaching, music, better floor and ambience, more space, better dancers will win eventually.

To return briefly to the supermarket analogy, Asda touts itself as cheap, Tesco and Sainsbury have been head to head for a long time, with Tesco pulling ahead - IMHO for getting service and the supply chain more sorted - but there is only a finite market for groceries.

Whereas MJ is growing AFAICT, and there is tremendous scope for good venues to pull in keen dancers. My guess, and that's all it is, is that the success or failure of a venue will not be predicated on whether or how another one is publicised - all that the publicity affects is the speed at which the eventual equilbrium is reached. The position of the equilibrium is dependent on the other factors.

Chris

[Aleks]

Solely MHO.......If Tesco are providing the best possible product they can for the best possible reasons whether Safeway advertise right outside their door I don't believe that there would be much impact on their business. Customers are discerning in their choices - they are able to make their own judgement of whether it is "morally" correct for Safeway to advertise in this way and will make their choice of where to shop accordingly. If we know we're giving of our best for the best possible reasons we have nothing to fear from the behaviour of others.

[Chris]

Okay, my posts are long and boring, but I thought this was a sincere question that deserved a sincere answer.

The question is an interesting one and there’s no real hard and fast answer as far as I see.
The Asda example isn’t a perfect analogy (IMHO) but let’s go with it . . .

If the store giving out leaflets out leaflets is a smaller store or has some other local connection, it may get local sympathy (but have little chance of success). If it is a chain of similar proportions (eg a Safeway) then both are clearly big financial concerns (from the consumer’s viewpoint), irrespective of any marketing such as ‘caring for the consumer’, organic produce and so on. The law will probably be the best guide. When someone has done something once, apart from copyright etc, the principle exists that copying it is fair game in a market economy. There might be limits – eg giving out leaflets on the store’s premises, unreasonable behaviour (hard to define – have to fit it into some definite category) but lots of things that are legal are nevertheless unpleasant. Lots of things that are legal are also unethical, but with a lack of clear guidelines the law may give little weight to them. The store may have a right to get annoyed, but to do so may be unwise from a business point of view.

One flaw with the supermarket example is that it assumes that customers will get all of what they want (or so much that they will not mind the rest) from one store, and that they will travel to that store specifically (otherwise they wouldn’t see the leaflets outside would they?) This probably works for supermarkets, but the opposite occurs in many smaller shops. There are many towns where you will find rows of many shops of almost all the same kind. It seems to work for some reason. Perhaps the consumer thinks, I’ll go to such-and-such a street for hardware – if one shop doesn’t have it another will – so all benefit more than if they were wide apart because the area gets a reputation for excellence in that sort of shops. (In Broughton there seem to be an excess of hairdressers – I’ve no idea how it works for them but it must do – lack of queues if one is busy??)

In practical terms, what Asda can not afford to do is complain about it too much unless they have a legal option – they will lose customer respect if they do that. Legal force is unemotional and customers won’t be upset by it; but whereas ongoing battles disadvantage both players.

What does work seems to be expanding on success. Stores that are full can have bigger carparks and more checkouts, or introduce premium/discount lines to attract loyalty. The successful stores also have more experience when it comes to effective publicity – mailshots, e-mailshots, loyalty points schemes. Most businesses get better from competition not because they have it easy before competition – with competition they have to start ‘being the best’ again. It is nice to think we can set up a business and that much of the initial hard work is an investment, that one day we won’t have to slug away so hard, but for many businesses the opposite is true. It may come down to re-defining one’s USP (Unique Selling Positions) and focussing more on those, both in terms of future planning and in terms of present marketing.

What other options are there? If there were a list of possibles it would be much easier for a poll?

[Gus]

Originally posted by Scot
B. If he has the right to be annoyed should he do something about it? If so what and how far should he go? Assurances have already been given but now broken so mutual respect seems not to be an option.

What would you do …

I know one franchisee who was 'annoyed' and ended up kick sh*t out of the annoying person ... given the circumstances I have a great deal of sympathy for this direct approach.

The unwritten rule has always been ... you DO NOT flyer competition events ... anyone breaking that rule is a cad and a bounder ... but what are you going to do?:confused:

If you ban them, then they play the 'wronged party' line and unfortunately a lot of the punters do not understand the situation.


So response ... issue a balanced statement (similar to that you’ve posted) laying out what had happened, why its wrong and why the SOB has been banned. Mind you I'm biased ... I spent nearly £1,000 promoting my original clubs only for a certain toad to start sliming into my venues handing out flyers for his venues .... was not happy ... still ain't.:reallymad

[JamesGeary]

When you have a big player and a small player, there is a big advantage in the small player pursuing an aggressive marketing strategy, particularly when the products are very similar.

The argument can be made that it is simply freedom of information, and people have a right to be informed, after which they will then make their own minds up. The actions of attempting to restrict information could be compared to the actions seen with a dictator in a small country, and for the same reasons. And in the dance world, people often quit for a lack of variety. Its a very justifiable position.

Typically, aggressive marketing continues until the small player is of a size that it becomes worthwhile for the big player to respond in kind. The small player now has lots of students, many of who don't know about the big player. Now both sides are pursuing aggressive marketing. At this point both player are investing significant time in an activity that adds no value to the overall market/business.

The used to be small player has a remarkable turn about regarding their ideas on pamphlet bombardment when they have grown enough that they can be and actually are a target. Suddenly they change their mind, and pamphlet bombardment is a morally bad thing. At that point a ceasefire is usually negotiated as they are both wasting time, and both players can devote their time to more value-added activities. From Gus's comments this sounds like the position Blitz and Ceroc are in.

Legally a person can't solicit at a place of business, and I suspect the entrance and exit to the business would be included too. Carparks nearby are often bombared with pamphlets, I know hammersmith used to employ someone to clear all the nearby cars of pamphlets twice a night.

Anyone has a right to be damn ****ed off if they have been lied to. But you have to look to the future. You could burn bridges with this person, but they could be around for a long time, and there is nothing as unpleasant as having your main hobby/interest/ side business being spoilt by an ongoing fight. Your own customers will start avoiding mentioning any times when they go to the competitions venues, and it gets awkward for everyone.

I think the best strategy is to focus on your own business, and making that the best experience that you can for your students. You may want to temporarily employ a bouncer to escort him off your doorstep, as they do at nightclubs (to the extent that he is breaking the law, I don't know what it is) and to clear the carparks of pamphlets, just because its the economic thing to do.

If you can get mutual respect (not likely by the sounds of it) you can have business owners happily visiting each others venues and dancing there, and not soliciting or talking business, which happens. Or better yet, advertising each others events and functions, which is less common, but also happens. But that isn't economic all around unless the businesses are of similar size.

Be glad he's on your doorstep. I've heard of people hiding in toilets handing out pamphlets!! The desperation.....

[azande]

Obviously you are referring to other dance/MJ nights in Edinburgh and I think the store analogy is wrong in this case.
Very rarely (if ever) your "competition" organizes nights that coincide with the Ceroc ones, therefore I don't see that as direct competition. People who dance will go to as many dance nights as possible and if "the competition" can attract new people, in the end you could benefit from it as well, since they might start coming to your events as well.

I think you would be right in being annoyed if the leaflets/publicity was for a night that coincides with one of yours but since that is not the case I don't think you are justified.

And why not ask the other people to have leaflets for your events at theirs?

[Chicklet]

OK I'll go first...I'm going to make a big assumption that we are using the stores as standins for dance organisations???!!???

I will add I do NOT know exactly what might have prompted the (perfectly fair and sensible) question so am not secretly putting up someone elses view

Not IMHO a suitable analogy in the way set out here, reason being, supermarkets are used for necessities, requirement for which will be a fairly finite amount per person. So shopping at one store, as suggested, means less shopping at another store.

But, IMHO, dancing in Scotland is not a staple product but a luxury product so purchasing from one vendor does not preclude one from purchasing from another vendor AS WELL. Particularly if the products are slightly different and offer different experiences.

Hope this is slightly clear.:D

[Chris]

Why's there s*d all happening in Edinburgh this weekend? Even the nightclubs get busy early on a Saturday :mad:
[belligerent mode off]

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Chris
Why's there s*d all happening in Edinburgh this weekend? Even the nightclubs get busy early on a Saturday :mad:
[belligerent mode off] Edinburgh?? Try 'anywhere in Scotland' instead :tears:

Definitely a market for someone to do something on the 4th Saturday of months with 5 Saturdays in!!

I suppose that some people might like a weekend off. The strange ones.... :na:

Steve

[Paul F]

Tricky one this.

I must confess that a large part of me goes with the physical option ensuring they dont hand out flyers again.

However

I suppose this is not a very intelligent solution :grin:

I think people are more knowledgeable than advertisers make out. If I was at a venue and I walked out of the door only to be confronted by someone giving out flyers for another venue I would immediately think ......Desperation !!!!

For someone to do that is not only immoral (IMO) but its increadibly cheap and desperate. It certainly wouldnt make me go to their night. If they have to sponge off an established venue so dramatically they cant be offering anything particularly good.

(they might be but this isnt the impression i would get)

I wouldnt worry too much. At the end of the day the same thing may end up happening at both venues :D

Someone mentioned this used to happen in the SE ?? If memory serves.

[Scot]

Originally posted by Paul F
I think people are more knowledgeable than advertisers make out. If I was at a venue and I walked out of the door only to be confronted by someone giving out flyers for another venue I would immediately think ......Desperation !!!!


I have nothing bad to say about the competition to an extent they provide a service that I am unable to or want to and i respect that. However a verbal agreement did exist and I do consider this to be a fairly unsavoury method of advertising. Perhaps just me

To those who have responded indifferently or feel I have no right to be miffed. I would ask that, if it were you, would you really not be bothered. I wonder.

Anyway thanks for your responses it would appear from your respective advice the best course of action would be to do nothing or compete directly.

Many Thanks

[DavidB]

I won't bother with any analogy. I will go to whatever event I think is likely to have good music, a good floor, and (for local events) my friends an aquaintances. If I don't know what to expect, I'll go for the cheapest option.

I understand that all venues have to be run as a business, and I'm very grateful for all the organisers who put in the time and effort to run them. But anything that is run as a business has to expect to be treated like a business. I wouldn't expect an organiser to keep an unprofitable venue going just because it's my favourite venue. In return the organiser can't expect me to keep going to the same venue just because I always have. I worked hard for my money - the organiser has to work hard to get it off me!

I do not have any loyalty to any business organisation or venue (other than those that have shown me favours in the past.) If I go to a free venue or party, I don't expect anything. But as soon as any venue starts charging, it has to offer value for money if it wants to keep my business.

Fulham last night cost £7. But they ran an advanced class, extended the time until 11:00, and I had loads of dances. It was a lot better than it used to be, and I'll definitely go back.

Monday at Clapham offered very little reason for me to go back, so I almost certainly wont. But Havana in Fulham was free, and had the bonus of some amazing dancers to watch. Even though I can't do Lambada, and don't really like the music, it was far better value.

As a consumer I like competition, because it gives me choice, and tends to improve value for money - either by things getting cheaper, or getting better. I expect an organiser to entice me to go to his event, not prevent me from going to another event.

Scot - if you are happy that your venues offer the best possible option in Edinburgh, you have nothing to worry about. I've only ever been to Ceroc Edinburgh once, and I had a great time. You are in a far better position to keep your dancers than your competition is in trying to lure them away. But be pro-active, not reactive. Ask people what they want before they try the other venue, and see if you can do anything about it. You won't be able to please everyone, but the thought does go a long way. (In 18 years of doing Ceroc, I've only ever been asked by one teacher what I thought of the evening and the class.)

David

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by DavidB
Scot - if you are happy that your venues offer the best possible option in Edinburgh, you have nothing to worry about. I've only ever been to Ceroc Edinburgh once, and I had a great time. You are in a far better position to keep your dancers than your competition is in trying to lure them away. But be pro-active, not reactive. Ask people what they want before they try the other venue, and see if you can do anything about it. You won't be able to please everyone, but the thought does go a long way. (In 18 years of doing Ceroc, I've only ever been asked by one teacher what I thought of the evening and the class.)


Ceroc in scotland is very well organised and to be honest Scot is a great teacher and his choice in music is generally great (i actually like boogie woogie bugle boy :) ). In fact Scottish Ceroc in general is of a good enough standard that there are enough people coming through the ranks to intermediate level that can than support other venues and other dance styles. i.e. They are 'turned on' to dance because of Ceroc OR as has happened another alternative venue turns them onto dance and they find Ceroc more than satisfies there need. A good example is Route66 - slightly different music but they do get a fair few newcomers - but Route66 does not happen very often, so where are they going to go for regular quality nights...Ceroc.

The supermarket idea is fine as an anology but i think the advertising flyers thing is not the important point - the customers are important and they wont forget that what they receive in a particular place is excellent. If they do briefly forget then they'll remember as soon as they get an inferior service - thats what its all about, the service provided - no one has a divine right to customers no matter how much they may have spent on building up their business. In Scotland there are different events and venues to go to but Ive never felt they 'compete' with Ceroc - they compliment modern jive in general and give us all a choice.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
The supermarket idea is fine as an analogy but i think the advertising flyers thing is not the important point

I agree but for different reasons. Dancer can only have it either one of two ways. MJ is either a Business or a Social Thing, you cant have it both ways. Why? Well, if I see A competitor and I want to beat them in the business world there are some pretty aggressive techniques I can use and they would be regarded as legitimate. HOWEVER, if I used the same techniques in my dance business people would call foul.

For example ... I compete against Ceroc Nantwich (among others) ... if I was not bound by the rules of etiquette I would;

poach his teachers, crew and DJ
make a counter offer for his venue
flyers all his dancers
on his dance nights, run mine at discounted prices or free (:wink: )
start point out the poor points of his club
start a campaign against the Franchisee personally
etc etc etc


And ... like it or not, it would work.

Now ... how would you prefer things to continue ... everyone acting as gentlemen or dragging the whole game into a fierce competitive business ... YOU CHOOSE.

[Andy McGregor]

We have been a battle ground in the Brighton area for the last 5-6 years. I'm not sure what you should do but whatever it is, please don't do what our dance teachers did:tears:

The new boy at the time (Jeff Jasper) hung around outside venues, popping out of doorways to give you leaflets. His leaflets appreared under windscreens, he slipped them to people inside venues rolled up or folded up to be passed unnoticed.

So what happenned?

The nearest and most established organiser banned Jeff and ignored the leafleting and touting outside his venues. But eventually it got to him and he touted outside one of Jeff's dances. The following week the organiser got a letter from the council saying that they'd received complaints from members of the public about being intimidated entering a venue. They threatened to ban the organiser from all council controlled venues if it ever happenned again - funny how no complaints were received when Jeff was touting:wink:

This nearest organiser had been established for many years and had successful venues. But he seemed to become obsessed with his new competitors activities and took his eye of the ball as far as keeping his cusomers happy. The result was that numbers dropped to far, far less than half their previous level.

One venue organiser dragged Jeff out to his car park and threatened him with violence if he didn't take the leaflets out from under the windscreens - that worked:wink:

Another organiser paid the council's legal expenses for a successful prosecution against a company putting leaflets under windscreen wipers. This is a refuse/waste offence like fly-tipping. The offender got a hefty fine and a criminal record!

Nowadays all of the organisers in our area are paranoid. They're constantly watching out for competitor activity and accuse people of being organisers even if they're not. To illustrate this I've pasted below an email I received only this week. This was sent after I'd had a party in my village hall for my friends from dancing and announced that I would be putting on a party next month for my wife Sue's birthday.



Subject: Agenda

Hello Andy

As you have now become an Operator (an Organiser of regular dance events), all be it of the complimentary variety (for how long?), I would like to know your agenda for the future.

My agenda is there for all to see. What's yours?

I'd like to hear it first hand from you. As I didn't receive an invitation myself; while at the same time you were indiscriminately dishing out invites at my dance classes, I have to assume you don't want me there. Am I banned or simply unwelcome?

As you all too well understand, Operator's may attend other's venues with prior agreement. A policy that the majority of Operators adhere to. At the very least, I think I'm owed an explanation as to your plans prior to you next attending any of my events.

Regards

Name Deleted

All I did was have a party in my village hall and give out some personal invitiations to my friends when I bumped into them. I didn't give an invitation to this particular organiser because he's not in my circle of friends - although I am quite friendly with him and have busked and taxied for him in the past. All of the stuff he's talking about happened in his imagination and once he'd imagined those things the other bits came from that. I just 'phoned him and sorted it, he's fine now - but I could have got quite shirty as I'd been taken completely the wrong way and had been asked to explain why I'd had a party (as if I needed a reason to party!) and to justify my guest list - on the 'phone I was even told it was suspicious that Nigel and Nina were there!

The above example shows how paraniod things have got down here on the South Coast. Don't let that happen to you. Talk to these other organisers and offer a leaflet exchange or something.

If you want to know what it's like when organisers fall out, bear in mind that I spend at least 6 hours a week just travelling to and from venues because, with one exception, there's nowhere worth going to locally!!!

p.s. I put in the 'one exception' bit so each one of the local organisers can think it's them:devil:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gus
For example ... I compete against Ceroc Nantwich (among others) ... if I was not bound by the rules of etiquette I would;

poach his teachers, crew and DJ
make a counter offer for his venue
flyers all his dancers
on his dance nights, run mine at discounted prices or free (:wink: )
start point out the poor points of his club
start a campaign against the Franchisee personally
etc etc etc


And ... like it or not, it would work.

All of the above have been done in our area. They all worked, particularly the free nights.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Gus
Now ... how would you prefer things to continue ... everyone acting as gentlemen or dragging the whole game into a fierce competitive business ... YOU CHOOSE.

Good points. As you say, theres much more of a social aspect to your business which you have to take into account, and i would expect the socially aware businessman to 'win' in this situation. I have always believed that giving out flyers without asking is just rude - but thats for a venue that is NOT directly competing. If people are actively trying to get dancers to switch venue I agree thats not on at all. Other businesses - especially 'contract win' based businesses survive by being extremely cutthroat and predatory and it probably WOULD work in the dance world, but how many customers would enjoy going to such a companies venue? A few flyers will not cause your loyal punters to up and leave. Anything more than that is stepping over the line but - you quote...

HOWEVER, if I used the same techniques in my dance business people would call foul.


...indeed they would, and if the other guy trys it, let him - the dancers will cry foul.

[Scot]

Dear All

Thankyou for your comments my real aim was to establish if leafleting at venues was considered acceptable behaviour. Clearly Not.

Having received an apology and assurances that it will not happen again the matter is closed

Thanks

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Gus


poach his teachers, crew and DJ
make a counter offer for his venue
flyers all his dancers
on his dance nights, run mine at discounted prices or free (:wink: )
start point out the poor points of his club
start a campaign against the Franchisee personally
etc etc etc



Now now Gus, lumping in handing out leaflets / informing people of what new events are going on, in with all those other things doesn't make it the same.

I have noticed some people here in london who aren't socially conforming to my standards

ignore people who have heart attacks in the street
don't buy me drinks
mug people who walk alone
steal from blind people
etc etc etc

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Scot
Dear All

Thankyou for your comments my real aim was to establish if leafleting at venues was considered acceptable behaviour. Clearly Not.



I just counted and got 4 people who were anti-leafs and 7 people who were for leaflets. I didn't count Chris's post.

If you are going to post to 'find out' what people think is acceptable then its a bit pointless if you ignore the results and declare them whatever you thought in the first place.

What we found was customers considered it acceptable (the exception of Andy), while people who ran dance businesses didn't consider it acceptable which is fairly predictable because they can lose customers if people know what else is on.

[Gus]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
....while people who ran dance businesses didn't consider it acceptable (the exception of me, who no longer runs dance businesses) which is fairly predictable because they can lose customers if people know what else is on.

I thought that the point was made that ettiquette also had a role to play .... its just not cricket dear chap:wink:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Gus
I thought that the point was made that ettiquette also had a role to play .... its just not cricket dear chap:wink: Yeah. James is from New Zealand.

He wouldn't understand cricket.

Or rugby.

:devil:

Steve

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Gus
I thought that the point was made that ettiquette also had a role to play .... its just not cricket dear chap:wink:

etiquette is a social standard

etiquette is defined by what the majority believe is acceptable, not what the smaller numbers believe is acceptable.

We have found what the majority believe is acceptable.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
What we found was customers considered it acceptable (the exception of Andy), while people who ran dance businesses didn't consider it acceptable which is fairly predictable because they can lose customers if people know what else is on.

Personally I find leaflets unnecessary as I find out about everything that's going on through the medium of gossip.

I think it's important for us dancers that we know what's going on and there are a number of sources of this information, leaflets being one of them. What I think isn't acceptable is touting leaflets in the street, especially if there's an associated message that the class you're about to attend isn't as good as the one on the leaflet. And leaflets on windscreens - well that's actually criminal!

I think organisers should just agree to give out each other's leaflets and avoid all of these problems. It would mean that consumers would have the marketing man's dream/nightmare of 'perfect knowledge' of the market place and just pick the best value product! And if the market was like that people's products would get better quickly or fail straight after beginners lesson:devil:

A leaflet puts power with the consumer and is therefore essential in any democracy:waycool:

[John S]

A few thoughts, not necessarily connected (or even coherent!)

I guess most people who set up a dance business/franchise do so initially not just because they want to make huge amounts of money but mainly because they love dancing and see an opportunity to combine business and pleasure. But business and pleasure make uneasy bedfellows.

I sympathise with Scot, Gus or anyone else who finds their customer base is attracted to a new kid on the block. But let's face it, that's business - if the new product is "better" (however that is defined by the customers) then it will succeed.

What is unethical, and should be seen by everyone as such, is for any operator to specifically use the facilities and dance night of another operator to attract customers to a competing event on the same night. In that respect the Tesco/Safeway analogy is fair, and it doesn't matter whether the product is a staple or a luxury - it wouldn't be allowed. There is no obligation on a franchise operator to provide the oxygen of publicity to a rival who is trying to put the franchise operator out of business, but equally "dissing" the opposition publicly is usually counterproductive as dancers don't want to think they're in the middle of a shooting match.

In a city (like Edinburgh) there should be room and custom enough for more than one MJ operator to co-exist in harmony. A bit of commonsense and co-operation on which evenings classes are held, and which dates are used for weekend parties/events,
should avoid most problems - some nights suit some people, other nights others.

But in smaller towns there probably aren't enough people turned on to MJ to support more than 1 evening per week, so a new operator there can be problematic and the financial case for both operations then becomes less credible.

I'm not privy to any disputes that might go on behind the scenes in Scotland, but as an ordinary dancer I think the MJ provision is about right - several Ceroc nights in various locations, a few Leroc ones in others and occasional events from Route66 and Boogie Nights (sorry if I've missed anyone). Perhaps there's a gap in the market in some other sizeable places (eg Inverness, North Lanarkshire etc), but it doesn't affect me!

What I think is excellent is the way that (at Franck's venues anyway) publicity is given from the stage to forthcoming events, even those not in Franck's immediate Ceroc franchise area, but which he recognises may be of interest to his audience - it is an approach I think should be the model for other venues and operations.

And of course this Forum (financed by Ceroc/Franck) allows a lot more freedom to criticise Ceroc and/or to publicise other operations than a lot of franchise owners might be comfortable with.

So, no easy answer to Scot's query - except that it is always easier to move from a co-operative approach (if it doesn't work) to a belligerent one, than vice versa.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by John S
if the new product is "better" (however that is defined by the customers) then it will succeed.


They're all pretty much the same aren't they?

[Gus]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
They're all pretty much the same aren't they?

HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT????:wink:

Sorry James, but there is a HUGE difference in the musivc, venues, dance standard etc etc. There are a number of the clubs in the North where I would literally not go if I was paid.

[azande]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Personally I find leaflets unnecessary..

~snip
A leaflet puts power with the consumer and is therefore essential in any democracy:waycool: :what: :confused: :wink:

[Chris]

"Success is thy proof:"

If you win by aggressive marketing and ruthless business you can still come out smelling of roses. Boots is one of the perfect examples - ruthlessly putting small chemists out of business but a pretty lovely image.

Minor tactics, like flyers on cars or more underhand stuff might, as has been pointed out, be okay for a small new face, but humiliating for an established business unless it is quick and final. If you want to be ruthless you do it with money.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by azande
:what: :confused: :wink:
Its one of those things, fine for other people, people that don't know people, poor things, but me, I know people. :)

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Gus
HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT????:wink:

Sorry James, but there is a HUGE difference in the musivc, venues, dance standard etc etc.

Waiting for the outcome DWAS vs people who would dance to the sound of a mobile phone ringing.....

[Gadget]

A couple of thoughts:
The Supermanrket anology only works if both venues opperated on the same night. Admitedly there are some 'customers' who could only go to one venue - in this instance it is direct competition.

Does anyone know how efective leafleting is? I know it raises awareness, but does it actually draw punters? Any leaflets I get handed exiting a club either get binned or shoved in a pocket untill I find a bin. Leaflets lying on tables or desks I might actually pick up and read.

If it was my club, I would contact the individual involved and negotiate either to stop with a reciprocal leaflet drop or arrange a constant reciprical leaflet exchange. (I would just make sure that my leaflets were better designed/printed/quality than theirs. :wink: )

Another "underhanded" tactic would be to hire some fabby dancers (with no ethics) to wear your t-shirts to your competitor's venue.

and Gus: to the standard punter, most venues are the same - it's only the 'ringleaders' who take a group of people with them that you need to ensure are happy.

[Chris]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Waiting for the outcome DWAS vs people who would dance to the sound of a mobile phone ringing.....

How do you get away with saying that dear James? Is it because people don't realise how incisive it is?

Wish I had thought of it first :blush: :blush:

Maybe I can find someone who's not on the forum and pass it off as my own wit he he!
:devil: :devil: :devil:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Waiting for the outcome DWAS vs people who would dance to the sound of a mobile phone ringing.....

Sophie Ellis Bextor ringtones (http://www.gsm-wallpapers.com/ringtones-sophie-ellis-bextor.htm)

:sick: :sick: :sick:

[DangerousCurves]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I think organisers should just agree to give out each other's leaflets and avoid all of these problems. It would mean that consumers would have the marketing man's dream/nightmare of 'perfect knowledge' of the market place and just pick the best value product! And if the market was like that people's products would get better quickly or fail straight after beginners lesson:devil:



I agree in principle, but the problem comes if not everybody plays fair.

I know two south coast dance promoters well - one Jive, one Salsa.

The Jive promoter carried everyone's leaflets on a reciprocal basis till two things happened....
i)He discovered that whilst he put out certain peoples leaflets each week, they happily took a stack of his and binned them; and ii)after standing on stage midweek and recommending a rival promoter's forthcoming Saturday night bash to his students, he received a phone call thirty minutes before the dance was due to start from that promoter telling him that he was banned from coming because he was considered "too much competition"

The Salsa promoter also carried everyone's leaflets on a reciprocal basis till....
i) he found a jive promoter taking his beginners outside to show them "how much easier it is to learn jive"; and
ii) the same promoter going table to table inside his club with leaflets and free entry vouchers in his jacket; and
iii) after recommending a charity event from his stage, all the Salsa promoters started bitching about why their events were not similarly advertised.

Both of them are now thoroughly fed up with simply trying to give their customers an added service, and contemplating banning leaflets in future.

So far as Scot's query is concerned, I think he had a right to feel aggreived if an arrangement had been agreed between him and his competitor who then broke his word. Sadly, too often in this world, "Nice guys finish last" :sad:

[Jive Brummie]

Interesting one this. Personally I think it has a lot to do with how you came about being in the dance game. Was it a buisness decision or because you just love dancing.
If it was the first one, then you're obviously going to be disgruntled, as any competition will potentially take the money out of your pocket and the food off your table. If however it was the second one, then surely you would actively encourage such behaviour at your venue purely to promote your love of dancing.

One thing though...how do you know that the 'competition' wasn't actively promoting your venue / class etc at their event??? You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours........

james......:cheers:

[Dance Demon]

We have a table at the front desk at Route 66 with leaflets from various organisations, like Boogienights, Edinburgh Swing Dance Society, other independant dance companies, Club Radio ( a rock & Roll club in Edinburgh), and have even had Francks Ceroc leaflets for the Jive Aces in Aberdeen. A lot of merit in what James has said about how you came about being in dance in the first place. We were first and foremost dancers. With this in mind, we like to help advertise other dance nights, some of which we actually attend ourselves. We also chose a night that no one else was operating on, so as not to step on any toes. Personally, I think that it is possible for everyone to co exist amicably, all it takes is a little co-operation and communication.:cheers:

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Gadget

and Gus: to the standard punter, most venues are the same - it's only the 'ringleaders' who take a group of people with them that you need to ensure are happy.

Which gets me thinking. Do you think phoning people up and convincing them to come to a venue is more or less aggressive than pamphleting?

Obviously one is morally wrong and the other morally right, but I can't remember which was which.

At some point I suppose a reciprocal agreement would be reached or they'd both be spending all their days scooping customers on the phone, not adding any value to the market/business.

Personally I'd do both. But I guess that whole moral thing confuses me.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Scot

if we assume the premise that for any business sector there are only so many consumers … Bedford, population ~ 60,000 It has at least 8 MJ, swing and salsa nights per week. All growing. So many potential consumers ...

I think the rest of the post translates to : A competitor is handing out promotional material for their venue outside ours, despite previous assurances that they would not do this.


My questions are this

A. Does the Store Manager have the right to be annoyed or is he just being petty.
B. If he has the right to be annoyed should he do something about it? If so what and how far should he go? Assurances have already been given but now broken so mutual respect seems not to be an option.

What would you do My, non-expert, opinions.

It's competition. Live with it. If they are breaking any laws report them to the appropriate authority.

Run the best damn venue in the world, and rely on your members that are attracted to their venue to tell their customers that.

[Gus]

The forum is here for debate and to raise issues and canvass opinion ...so I would like the opinion of the organisers of the event..

Johnah, what are your views on flyering competing events ... going along to events by competing organisations and then sneaking off to festoon the customers cars with flyers .... do you think its acceptable? Would this type of thing be done at a Ceroc event? Just curious but your view would be deeply appreciated.
:grin:

[Alfie]

With reference to Ceroc people putting out leaflets on peoples vehicles at a rival event.
I have seen this done at a couple of events. One of which was a charity event. The only problem this caused was the ammount of wet sticky flyers that had to be collected from trees, peoples gardens etc.
No big deal, dog eat dog business this dancing lark.
Does this sort of action make you feel threatened as to the future of your own events?
Would it have made a diference if the gent in question had asked to advertise his event at the Venue.
That way the Blitz event later in the year could be advertised by him. I wouln't see it as rivalry just good freindly business practice betwwen two independent organisations taking dancing to the masses.

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by Gus
The forum is here for debate and to raise issues and canvass opinion ...so I would like the opinion of the organisers of the event..

Johnah, what are your views on flyering competing events ... going along to events by competing organisations and then sneaking off to festoon the customers cars with flyers .... do you think its acceptable? Would this type of thing be done at a Ceroc event? Just curious but your view would be deeply appreciated.
:grin:
I dont agree with this, I organised a dance in Brighton and was advised to flyer the carpark of another organisers event.
I did not do this, the event was poorly attended and the local dancers asked why I had not put flyers on cars, cos eeryone else does.

I discussed this with the other organiser afterwards and he informed I would have been banned from is events if I had done it
peter

[Gus]

Originally posted by Alfie

Does this sort of action make you feel threatened as to the future of your own events?
Would it have made a diference if the gent in question had asked to advertise his event at the Venue.

Like thats going to happen. Sorry Alfie but if these guys wanted to co-operate thay wouldnt resort to low life actions. The unwritten rule for Promoters is you dont flyer other promoters events without permission. With all due respeck, its NOT down to the dancers .... this is ettiquette for Organisers. The really annoying thing is that if someone had had the manners to ask, I'd have probably promoted the event at my next freestyle. As its is, if I see any of that bunch trying the same at my events I'll let my security lads help them through the door ... without openning it first!:reallymad:

There is no excuse for such behaviour, it shows a complete disregard for ethics and a lack of integrity. If they want to continue ... I'm sure that Ceroc Nantwich would be only too glad to have the JiveAddiction bunch flyering their carpark:devil:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gus
going along to events by competing organisations and then sneaking off to festoon the customers cars with flyers ....

This is actually a criminal act. If anyone were to collect the evidence (a few flyers) and contact the Environment Agency the leaflet distributor would be prosecuted and end up with a hefty fine plus costs and a criminal record. I have been told by 2 employees of the Environment Agency that they always prosecute if they have enough evidence to secure a conviction.

I also know this from personal experience as I used a company that advertised they were a licenced waste carrier. When it turned out they weren't I was still prosecuted even though the advertiser had lied - I was prosecuted for 'using an unlicenced waste carrier' and I was fined £423:tears:

My advice is to not take the risk and not risk prosecution for putting flyers on cars. You'd be better off giving the leaflets to people on their way out - if you have to do anything like that at all rather than offering an exchange with the other organiser.

[Will]

I'm not an organiser and never have been, but I reckon I'd probably feel like Gus does about it if someone started flyering my venues. But thats just me.....

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
This is actually a criminal act. If anyone were to collect the evidence (a few flyers) and contact the Environment Agency the leaflet distributor would be prosecuted and end up with a hefty fine plus costs and a criminal record. I have been told by 2 employees of the Environment Agency that they always prosecute if they have enough evidence to secure a conviction.


I doubt flyers alone would constitute enough enough evidence. Witness reports may not do it either. If observed at all it is likely to be from a distance in the dark, and the testimony may be suspected of bias. Useful info though. It may be enough to warn the offender that it is an offence.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
I doubt flyers alone would constitute enough enough evidence. Witness reports may not do it either. If observed at all it is likely to be from a distance in the dark, and the testimony may be suspected of bias. Useful info though. It may be enough to warn the offender that it is an offence.

Just finding a few flyers under wipers is enough evidence. One of our local operators has already been successful in a similar prosecution. Don't risk it guys. I was prosecuted based on two bits of my junk mail turning up in a pile of rubbish that wasn't even mine:tears:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Gus
Johnah, what are your views on flyering competing events ... Would this type of thing be done at a Ceroc event? Just curious but your view would be deeply appreciated.
:grin:

Johnah .... HUGE APOLOGY .... I'm afraid the phrase above could have been misinterpreted ..... I must confess that I was mis-informed ..... Turns out that in addition to (allegedly) illegal flyering at Stockport, Sheffield and Coventry (all Blitz) you guys ALSO (allegedly) hit a Ceroc venue.

Now I wonder ... how will Ceroc HQ respond? Anyone place the bets on a banning order:devil: :devil: :wink:

Franck/Scot ... would you care to comment on what would happen if Blitz came to your venues and started flyering cars for a competing event?

[Chris]

I've been to Blitz events that I thoroughly enjoyed. I was made exceedingly welcome. That makes me well disposed towards them. I also met the lovely Sarah there (a major bonus!), got to know John Sweeney a bit better, met up with close friends from the North. I asked to put flyers out for an event north of the border. They not only put them out on the front desk but helped to promote them to the people there that night.

Not relevant you might think, but there's always another side - don't judge too harshly when we don't know all the facts. Flyering windscreens outside a competitor's venue IMHO tends to harm the perpetrator more than the venue. Bad move - live and learn.

And if they don't see these comments the thread simply become one more marketing tool for their 'opposition.' :confused:

[johnah]

I think the most important facts to have emerged from this thread is that dancers WANT to be informed about events whilst some dominant organisations simply do not want dancers to be informed. Receipt of leaftlets by dancers IS ACCEPTABLE, whilst, it would appear, the distribution of them by some organisers is not welcome. Two very distinct views.

I agree with James Geary when he says “it is simply freedom of information, people [eg dancers] have a right to be informed and will then make up their own minds”.

Now, there is in reality, no direct comparison between how this thread began and how one contributor deemed to slant it towards me personally [even threatening violence] and Jive Addiction’s event at Southport in May.

Contrary to what is being asserted, Jive Addiction IS NOT in direct competition with either Blitz, Ceroc or any other MJ/dance organisation. We do not operate weekly classes, nor do we seek to dissuade dancers from attending anyone’s events. In fact, as dancers ourselves, we actively encourage others to frequent their venues and advertise them to our mailing list.

The Southport Jive Extravadanca is the very FIRST weekender of it’s type in the North, and is in direct response to dancers wishes. We are simply informing the dancing family that it is taking place, the line-up of Teachers etc and thereby enabling them to make an informed decision – it is simply their choice!


Originally posted by Gus
its NOT down to the dancers [/B]

Most, if not all, of the smaller independent MJ event organisers recognise that Southport is not a “threat” [perceived or otherwise] to their events/venues and, indeed, believe as we do that it will help to enthuse and stimulate the growth of MJ/dance in the North. These independents are willingly helping to promote Southport and, in turn, we shall be reciprocating the gesture at our event.

Sadly, one of the dominant organisers in the North is clearly of the view that information about Southport should be suppressed, thereby denying dancers freedom of information and choice. Yes, a PUBLIC car park at Stockport was leafleted with information about Southport, only for us to discover that all had subsequently been removed by, guess who? As James Geary has posted: “The actions of attempting to restrict information could be compared to the actions of a dictator”.

Perhaps some people forget, we live in a democracy! Jive Addiction has simply matched its event to the wishes of the dancing community, and we shall continue to provide information to dancers about the Southport Jive Extravadanca. We endeavour to disseminate this information in a cordial and legal manner.

Sincere thanks to all those dancers who are passing on leaflets to all their friends and/or patrons. If any other dancers would like to pass leaflets on also, please contact us at www.jiveaddiction.com

:cheers:

[Bardsey]

Originally posted by johnah


The Southport Jive Extravadanca is the very FIRST weekender of it’s type in the North, and is in direct response to dancers wishes. We are simply informing the dancing family that it is taking place, the line-up of Teachers etc and thereby enabling them to make an informed decision – it is simply their choice!


Just my personal view as a dancer who goes purely to enjoy a dance, I have to say that I think it would be a good idea if different organisers promoted, even in a small way, other's events.

I go to Blitz, Ceroc and independant classes and events and enjoy each one enormously, not because of who is running it, but because of the dancers who are there. Finding out about them though, is a different kettle of fish. I rely on flyers, word of mouth, this Forum etc., otherwise I'd be stuck at home in front of the box, instead of out dancing and having a whale of a time!

I went to Stockport on Saturday and had a brilliant night (thanks Gus), I will be going up to Aberdeen for Beach Ballroom (thanks to Franck and the Scottish contingent), hopefully to Camber in April (thanks to other Forumites for the recommendation), definitely Southport in May (thanks to Johnah and friends) and when Gus has his event (did I hear November mentioned?) I will go to that too. I know I'll have a great time at each of them.

I know it must be annoying when others "picket" your venue, but if everyone agreed to promote other main events (not talking classes here) then we can all find out about them and go along, that way more people would turn up at each event (given the nature of MJ dancers) not less and I don't believe one event several months or even weeks away from another would detract from the other.

:tears: Please don't have a go at me, I'm just giving my honest opinion. I love all the venues and have yet to meet someone, be they organiser, teacher, or dancer, who I took a dislike to. Everyone seems very friendly. Lets keep it that way, eh?

:kiss: :hug:

[Pammy]

Originally posted by Bardsey
I will be going up to Aberdeen for Beach Ballroom (thanks to Franck and the Scottish contingent), hopefully to Camber in April (thanks to other Forumites for the recommendation), definitely Southport in May (thanks to Johnah and friends) and when Gus has his event (did I hear November mentioned?) I will go to that too.

Hang on a minute; rumour has it you may be attending Twyford in March, murder permitting :wink:

and of course if Boomer agrees to don a skirt :rofl:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Bardsey
Just my personal view as a dancer who goes purely to enjoy a dance,

-snip loads of sensible stuff-

:kiss: :hug:

Well said Bardster.

Us dancers see it that way but in my experience that's not the way some organisers view it. Some of them seem to think that if they don't tell us about their competitors we'll never find out and give our money just to them.

Speaking personally, if I hadn't found out about other classes I wouldn't be dancing now. The great differences between what you learn at different classes and the many and varied people I meet are what's kept me interested for almost 7 years. Of the people that started at around the same time as me not one still goes to that original venue all of the time - but we do go sometimes. There's not one person left of those people who never tried anywhere else.

The message is clear, the world of dance will be increased by people going to different venues. Why can't organisers compete on quality of product rather than freedom of information?

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Why can't organisers compete on quality of product rather than freedom of information?

Oh but some of us do Andy...some of us do...:wink:

[Chicky]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
Oh but some of us do Andy...some of us do...:wink:

Like you DD, we do too! However, some organisers make it their mission in life to destroy any competition, not seeing the 'big picture'. I say there's enough room for us all, if we all cooperate a little more

[Dance Demon]

Originally posted by Chicky
Like you DD, we do too! However, some organisers make it their mission in life to destroy any competition, not seeing the 'big picture'. I say there's enough room for us all, if we all cooperate a little more

Yep...couldn't agree with you more Chicky:cheers:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Chicky
Like you DD, we do too! However, some organisers make it their mission in life to destroy any competition, not seeing the 'big picture'. I say there's enough room for us all, if we all cooperate a little more

RIGHT ... time to out the other side ... and none of this ODA cr*p, this is Gus writting .... and I'm mighty pi**ed off.

This has NOTHING to do with trying to prevent competition. anyone who knows me knows that I've alwyas seen true competition as positive. When I was Ceroc I promoted Blitz events on a reciprocal basis. Blitz now promotes a vast range of events .. includng my independant Gorgeous Gus events ... so lets get that misconception out of the way! If someone asks me I have no problems in telling them I've danced at Ceroc Hyde ... Paul and Chris have played with a straight bat and deserve their success.

What I have a real problem with is people coming in an creaming off from the hard work done by others. To say that Southport will stimulate dance is the most arrogant cr*p I've heard. We've managed to develop dancers very well already, thank you very much without some condescending no-mark from Notts coming here to help us out. what the hell do they think they know about the Northern dance scene when they dont even come here?

There are at least 5 dance organisation here who run a whole range of workshops including 'A' list instructors (:wink: ). I take it fairly personaly when we're accused of not giving our dancers what they want.

Bottom line, not only have our unethical friends insulted most of the Northern teachers and DJs by ignoring them, not only have they cur across every club they could by UNETHICALLY flyering their venue ... they then try to make out that their money grabbing scheme is a SERVICE TO THE NORTH.:tears: :tears: :reallymad:

PLEASE GET REAL:tears: If they had acted honourably they would have been fully supported ... as there is not a shred of decency among them .... well, I will express my views to them by PM.

PHEW ... time to chill:waycool: :tears:

[bigdjiver]

I have had experience of being in an ultra-competitive business. I, and all my competitors, lost money. Competition did not improve the product, it wiped out the all of the suppliers of it.

The ultimate form of competition is war. This is why we have laws, to attempt to keep peoples behaviour within reason.

Competition does not necessarily improve products. Look down at the keyboard. See the common letters E R T A S all carefully positioned under the weaker fingers of the left hand. This layout was deliberately designed to slow down the typist so that the typewriter keys did not jam so often. Speed to market is a vital consideration, and this "fix" allowed one manufacturer to get there first and dominate the market.

Many competitors down the ages brought out demonstrably more efficient layouts, but QWERTY still rules.

The comments about banning leaflets and promoting rival events merely slowing down awareness are true, but slowing down the competition can make all the difference. "Get there fastest with the mostest" was one Generals adage.

One Ceroc venue I know allowed a Cancer charity to give out leaflets for a charity jive event. The event was used to promote the launch of a competiting event. Lesson learned.

Leaflet wars are naff. Mature businesses do not do it. Perhaps someone will persuade an existing magazine / newspaper to publish a monthly MJ supplement with free event listings, on the way to having an MJ magazine. I believe it needs a circulation of 60,000 to get onto the High St newsagents shelves, we could manage that, couldn't we?

[Will]

I'd really rather see organisers busking and giving flyers out to people off the streets, or dishing out flyers within each others venues after a reciprical agreement has been reached. That would demonstrate to me a passion for dance and a respectful business ethic.

Flyering other MJ venues car parks is pretty low, not to mention lazy, in my opinion, and I do hope that people take these flyers and make a point in NOT giving them their business.

I totally sympathise with you Gus (and applaud you for posting as Gus rather than ODA on this!). But hec it could be worse, you could be fighting the MJ organiser wars in BrightonNAM :wink:

[Bardsey]

Originally posted by Pammy
Hang on a minute; rumour has it you may be attending Twyford in March, murder permitting :wink:

and of course if Boomer agrees to don a skirt :rofl:

Oops my apologies Pamster, how remiss of me. How could I leave that most important of dates out of my social calendar (as if I'd dare!) I am awaiting your instructions, camera at the ready, internet warned of possible distressing photos of gorilla in skirt :rofl: I'll be there come snow or sun, hospital permitting!:wink:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Will
But hec it could be worse, you could be fighting the MJ organiser wars in BrightonNAM :wink:

I wish the Brighton war was as dynamic as 'nam. It's now a sort of trench warfare. People seem to be dug into their positions along well established lines. One of the organisers has even been giving away free nights every time he clashed with another organiser. He blew it recently on a night that didn't clash but was advertised on the 'net as 'FREE'. When I turned up and it wasn't free I complained. Now I've been banned from that organisers events because I complained:confused:

And the result of all this is that numbers are dwindling. In this climate nobody seems keen to go out and recruit beginners so it's the same old faces. A couple of weeks ago I hired my village hall for a party and we all had a great time, just like the old days:D

You wouldn't believe the number of people who've asked me to start up classes and promised their support:waycool: But why would I do it when I can get in the car and go to Hipster, Dorking, Crawley, Guildford, Portsmouth, etc? Maybe I should buy a coach.

[stompin' phil]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor

............. Maybe I should buy a coach. [/B]

Now thats an interesting idea!

It will have to have a name

We have to decide on the colour.
I( opt for bertie bassett colours)

Who's going to sit on the back seats?


Stompin' phil

www.eventsforcharity.co.uk

[johnah]

Jive Addiction is marketing the Southport Jive Extravadanca to ALL dancers of MJ, be they from the North or from the South, but… this is primarily a Northern event! Such events will only enthuse dancers to attend and support their own regular weekly venues, is this a bad thing? But in answer to one or two of the fallacious points raised;


Originally posted by Gus
If they had acted honourably they would have been fully supported Jive Addiction has approached Blitz with a view to reciprocal promotion, unfortunately they refused. As for

Originally posted by Gus
RIGHT ... time to out the other side You will remember, YOU offered Jive Addiction your services for this event, but we had already secured our line up of teachers (from North and South) so had to decline your offer. We hope you were not too disappointed by our rejection!!

Originally posted by Gus
"What the hell do they think they know about the Northern dance scene when they dont even come here"? Together with dancing friends, we have attended many venues and events in the North and South of England. We enjoy dancing and experiencing different venues, in fact Wes, of Jive Addiction has arranged regular monthly freestyle dances and workshops in Nottingham for 7 years now, over the last few years under the name of ‘Jivestyle' [www.jivestyle.co.uk]. Some of which, in times past, you have attended! Wes has also promoted your venue and events and, indeed, actively supported you when you originally set up Ceroc Nantwich.

No dance organisation has offered a MJ weekend event like ours will be, in the North. Jive Addiction is organising the Southport Jive Extravadanca in the spirit of enjoyment and fun not as a


Originally posted by Gus
"money grabbing scheme"
as you assert.

We are offering excellent value for money, as anyone will see if they visit www.jiveaddiction.com

We do not wish Jive Addiction or anyone associated with it to be dragged down to the level of personal insults or derisive grudges on this Forum, as we believe it is here for dancers to enjoy exchanging views and information about dance – not as a sounding board to denigrate anyone who dares to offer dancers further choice!

So, come on Gus, as you say: - "Lets get real"! Our weekend Jive Extravadanca is the first of its kind in the North of England and as such, can only stimulate growth - not "cream off " dancers!

[Dance Demon]

"What the hell do they think they know about the Northern dance scene when they dont even come here"?Originally posted by Gus
Together with dancing friends, we have attended many venues and events in the North and South of England. We enjoy dancing and experiencing different venues, in fact Wes, of Jive Addiction has arranged regular monthly freestyle dances and workshops in Nottingham for 7 years now
Is Nottingham in the North?......I always thought it was in the Midlands.....:confused: .............or do you mean north of Watford gap,,? :wink:

[Gus]

OK ... I bit the bullet for a while on this one and (without trying get moved outside) think I need to respond .. if only to address the more inaccurate (slanderous? .... Trampy ... can you adjudicate) comments.
You will remember, YOU offered Jive Addiction your services for this event, but we had already secured our line up of teachers (from North and South) so had to decline your offer. We hope you were not too disappointed by our rejection!! As you well know ... you guys asked me to teach. I responded by asking a series of questions so that I could ascertain if it was the type of event I wanted to be at. If you then don’t think I'm up to 'Top Teacher' standard ... thats your prerogative .... but you wanted me ... not the other way round.
Jive Addiction has approached Blitz with a view to reciprocal promotion, unfortunately they refused. Urrm ... spoke to the MD of Blitz .... he has no knowledge of this. In fact he had even considered STILL helping you out with advertising EVEN after the flyering onslaught ... until you slagged him off in public ... not a wise move.
We do not wish Jive Addiction or anyone associated with it to be dragged down to the level of personal insults or derisive grudges on this Forum. So why make this post:confused: :wink:
We are offering excellent value for money. Quite possibly. The line up looks good and it could well be a very good event. The issue of myself and my colleagues in these 'dance wastelands' of the North West is the marketing strategy. I though that Scott's views and the balance of this thread from an organisers point of view had made it quite clear that its unethical to flyer ..fullstop. Nothing else is relevant. If you flyer you are doing a bad thing. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't then say this is restricting the promotion of other events ... Gorgeous Gus Dance and Blitz are well know for promoting MANY events ... just ask Chance To Dance, Newquay Ski Holiday, Lindy events, Le Swing etc. etc. etc. ..

So .... you think its OK to flyer people. We don’t. Lets just leave it there before Solicitor's letter start arriving on doorsteps

:tears:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Gus
slanderous? .... Trampy ... can you adjudicate Nope. Sorry. Staying well away from any posts that need adjudication at the moment.

I do think that it's developing into personal issues though, so maybe it should be taken to PMs, or face-to-face, rather than posted in a public forum. But that's just a personal opinion of course....

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I do think that it's developing into personal issues though, so maybe it should be taken to PMs, or face-to-face, rather than posted in a public forum. But that's just a personal opinion of course....

Steve

Yeahhh I know ... but with everyone else managing to get pushed outside .. maybe thought it was time to follow suit.

OK ...personal issues aside ... the whole discussion argument seems to have gone round in a circle. Is it legit to flyer or not. The rest of this spat shoud be setled by PM ...or pistols at dawn.:waycool:

[Brady]

Having followed this thread, it has sparked a few additional questions/topics of conversation.

1) Is it ok for the regular punter to take flyers from one venue and pass them out to friends while at another venue?

2) Will franchisees allow passing out of flyers/info for the event that only happens occasionally/one-off (i.e. Rock Bottoms, Beach Boogie, etc.)?

3) How about flyers for the occasional workshop, as long as it doesn't clash with any events run by the franchisees venue(s).

Personally I agree that flyering car parks and venues without consent from the franchisee is not really ethical. On the other hand, I think that franchisees should be more open to promoting dance in general (especially if they do it because they enjoy it; not only for the money). Promoting a workshop run by another organisation that doesn't clash with any of your events certainly could only benefit you by giving your dancers some more inspiration, something to practice when they return to your venue next week, and in the long run, a rise in the standard of dancers attending your venue. I know of a few small organisations here in Scotland, who all promote other events, as well as attend them, and none of these organisations are suffering for attendance at their events. A little competition never hurts to keep the big players in check; just look at any business in life. Ultimately it is the consumer who will decide where they will go and that is often influenced by cost and quality of the product; as a franchisee, why not focus on these rather than worrying about a few pieces of paper being passed around??!!!

I am not partial to any organisation (and don't have my own) and therefore tend to promote all dance events. I normally collect flyers from all around and pass them off to friends. Unfortunately at some venues here in Scotland I usually find myself waiting outside to pass them out, as I don't want to upset the franchisee/venue manager. I first thought this might be wrong, but have convinced myself that I'm only promoting dance and don't make a penny from it. I plan to continue on promoting all events, whether verbally or through flyers.

Brady

P.S. If any of the Scottish contingent are interested in joining a group heading down to Beach Boogie this year, get in touch as I'm organising a group again this year. I picked up flyers from Nina last weekend and will have them with me at upcoming events, so be sure and get one from me.

[Lounge Lizard]

If any organiser puts on an event/dance/weekender, they are putting in financial investment and taking a business risk.
Therefore it is reasonable to expect anyone wishing to advertise at their venue (or outside and even within the car park) to get PERMISSION FIRST

It is polite and ethical.

For dancers that like getting details of the venues/events I can understand why they dont mind this approach - but try running a successfull event/busines for others to effectivly cream your customers.

There has been a few analogies here is a few more...
Ask WH Smith to advertise Waterstones through out thir store,
Would tesco's to make an announcement that Sainsburys have 'some fantastic deals on'
Perhaps an accountant/soliciter should have a list of all other local firms printed in the reception area.....I could go on
handing out or distributing un-authorised flyers is IMHO the same and should not be done.

I do think however that organisers should display flyers if they offer no direct competition and are a benefit to the dancer.

I hope the Southport event is a success, on a personal basis it offers me a chance to meet new dancers, and DJ/teach 'up north'

A bit of irony (having just read this thread)
I am going to Northwich this Saturday to meet Gus and play a few tunes (so beware).
I have been meaning to go north of watford for ages and being invited to southport I decided I need to find out what 'northen folk' like to dance to etc.......oops

I wish the promoters of any bajor event including southport every success and hope it is the first of many northen weekend events, but i dont agree with the car park thing.....hopefully it will be treated as part of the learning curve for promoting big events

pp

[Jon L]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
I hope the Southport event is a success, on a personal basis it offers me a chance to meet new dancers, and DJ/teach 'up north'

A bit of irony (having just read this thread)
I am going to Northwich this Saturday to meet Gus and play a few tunes (so beware).
I have been meaning to go north of watford for ages and being invited to southport I decided I need to find out what 'northen folk' like to dance to etc.......oops


pp

I am thinking of issuing a special Leaflet to all Northern venues called "How to understand Lizard Language - a translation!"


It will include such things as:

"If he asks for a Bud, he is not asking for roses though he'd be flatterred to accept them !"


:grin:

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by Jon L
I am thinking of issuing a special Leaflet to all Northern venues called "How to understand Lizard Language - a translation!"

It will include such things as:

"If he asks for a Bud, he is not asking for roses though he'd be flatterred to accept them !"

etc. :grin: don't worry they will understand my subtle hints:wink: