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Gus
22nd-January-2004, 06:12 PM
I think its slightly ironic for me to start this thread given my declared role on the Forum ... but I think something needs to be said.

Over the last 6 months or so there has been a few onslaughts against individuals. These have been based on people expounding their views. Both Chris and Andy, among others, have had a fair old kicking ... and whether they have offended people or not, thats no way to act.

I think someone summed up that you shouldn't say something on the web that you wouldn't say to someone’s face. If someone has a contrary view ... GREAT .. thats what makes the debate on this Forum so good ... but it doesn't have to get personal. I speak from experience .. I’ve been slagged off as being ONLY anti-Ceroc. I'm the first to admit that I will post things that Ceroc HQ wont like ... and I'm fully aware that people will have strong counter views ... but the best debates are held when people argue the counter view ... not when I've just been called a pratt (even if its true:wink: )

So ... how about if we all keep the personal slandering out of it and go back to the original spirit of biting sarcasm, strong argument but none of personal aggro?

John S
23rd-January-2004, 11:28 AM
Oh dear, I'm agreeing with Gus!:eek:

It can be at best uncomfortable and at worst a complete turn-off to read personal mudslinging (fortunately only a tiny minority of the total posts). It's a bit like visiting the home of friends, then finding that as soon as you all sit down together they launch into some marital row that's been simmering between them for days.

It's unrealistic to say that everyone on the Forum should all be best mates and lovey-dovey, life's not like that, but respect and politeness cost nothing.

Bill
24th-January-2004, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by John S
Oh dear, I'm agreeing with Gus!:eek:

It's unrealistic to say that everyone on the Forum should all be best mates and lovey-dovey, life's not like that, but respect and politeness cost nothing.


Agreed.......... and I'll do my best not to be inpolite ... let's be positive eh !!!:na: :wink:

Daisy
24th-January-2004, 12:50 AM
I've thought about replying to this thread, I even typed out a reply and didn't post it. I'm afraid to ,in case I upset someone and end up getting flamed for it.

ENOUGH SAID I THINK !!:sad:

Bill
24th-January-2004, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by Daisy
I've thought about replying to this thread, I even typed out a reply and didn't post it. I'm afraid to ,in case I upset someone and end up getting flamed for it.

ENOUGH SAID I THINK !!:sad:


:rofl: :na: :rolleyes:

my lips are sealed :cheers:

Boomer
24th-January-2004, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by Daisy
I've thought about replying to this thread...to ,...upset someone and...get... flamed for it.

ENOUGH SAID I THINK !!:sad:

Oh more than enough I think! Right! You asked for it! And don't say you didn't! It's there...up there in your own words!

Stuart M
24th-January-2004, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Daisy
I've thought about replying to this thread, I even typed out a reply and didn't post it. I'm afraid to ,in case I upset someone and end up getting flamed for it.

ENOUGH SAID I THINK !!:sad:
I think you make a good point, Daisy. It links to something I've thought about for a while.

[Forum navel-gazing mode]
I think it is possible to post too frequently.

Looking through the various little arguments that have erupted on the Forum, the person being flamed has generally, at the time, been posting very frequently. The CarlaB thing is one of the few exceptions.

Some folk have used the pub analogy in the past - think it works here too. Think of Billy Bleach in the Fast Show. If someone walks into a pub, stands at the bar and starts pontificating on every subject, and butting into every conversation, two things happen.

1. Some folk stop (or never start!) talking for fear of arousing the loudmouth's interest.
2. Someone, usually a long-term regular, eventually tells them to shut their gob. Possibly chairs, pint glasses, and teeth begin to fly :eek:.

So another part of netiquette, IMHO, is to resist the urge to reply to everything you want to, or start every thread you want to. It lets newcomers and the quiet folk feel less intimidated.

Also, if someone on the Forum does get your goat, use the Ignore facility for a bit.
[/Forum navel-gazing mode]

PS We really need that terms of use policy, Franck - and send everyone a copy of it in a PM so we all read it and start behaving ourselves again!

TheTramp
24th-January-2004, 11:41 AM
I don't know if this is true Stuart...

I'm the person who posts the most on the forum, and I don't recall ever having really been flamed (except by one person, whose posts I now don't bother reading anymore).

People have disagreed with me, and I've exchanged more than a few friendly sarcastic remarks and general mickey-taking with a number of other people. But I've never felt particularly flamed by any of those. Maybe I've just grown too thick a skin to feel it.

Certainly I'd say the same was true of other high level posters (Franck, DavidB, Sheena (except for the lemon comment :na: ), etc.), I can't think of times when these people have been flamed either.

I don't think it's neccassarily what you say, or how much you say, it's HOW you say it that usually causes the problems, and leads to flaming. That, and outside issues being brought into here too.


So another part of netiquette, IMHO, is to resist the urge to reply to everything you want to, or start every thread you want to. It lets newcomers and the quiet folk feel less intimidated.Of course, if everyone did this, then there wouldn't be any posts on the forum. I do sometimes wonder if maybe people do get intimidated, and do stop posting (or never start), but generally feel that a vibrant, busy board, is better than one with just 20 new posts a day, and nothing happening on it. If there were only a few new posts each day, then would the quiet people then feel they could start posting?

Steve

PS. Please note that I'm not inviting anyone to start flaming me, just to prove me wrong :rolleyes:

ChrisA
24th-January-2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
except by one person, whose posts I now don't bother reading anymore).

I think you're being very harsh on Will, there, Trampster...

... I thought he was being quite polite for a change :devil:

Stuart M
24th-January-2004, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
I don't know if this is true Stuart...

I'm the person who posts the most on the forum, and I don't recall ever having really been flamed (except by one person, whose posts I now don't bother reading anymore).

Well, I agree it depends on how you define a "flame" post. I've just counted anything in "Outside" in that category along with a few others. By that count I think people have had a go at yourself a couple of times. To newcomers and infrequent posters, who know nothing of the characters involved, that stuff might look pretty aggressive, therefore they become less likely to get involved - see Daisy's post above.

I don't think it's necessarily what you say, or how much you say, it's HOW you say it that usually causes the problems, and leads to flaming. That, and outside issues being brought into here too.

Agree 100% that tone is the primary factor - my main point in posting here was simply to point out that it's not the only one and you can't consider it in isolation. I can well recall CJ having a go at Gus for constantly starting new threads, for example, and personally I thought there was nothing wrong with Gus' tone. Frequency can be a factor in intimidating/boring/annoying others and triggering them into an aggressive post, even if everything said is funny and interesting (maybe "catalyst" would be a better word than "factor" here).

I do sometimes wonder if maybe people do get intimidated, and do stop posting (or never start), but generally feel that a vibrant, busy board, is better than one with just 20 new posts a day, and nothing happening on it. If there were only a few new posts each day, then would the quiet people then feel they could start posting?
Personal history: there have been three periods in the past where I hardly ever posted on the Forum, because I felt that person X was almost certainly going to comment on what I said. Person X at the time was someone who'd just joined and was in "Whee! Look at me!" mode. All three are perfectly nice people - to me they were just irritating back then. To people with shorter fuses, however, they were probably a PITA and that's where some of the potshots came from. So going from my personal history, yes, posting with a slight decrease in frequency by some does lead to an increase by others. :)

Andy McGregor
24th-January-2004, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Over the last 6 months or so there has been a few onslaughts against individuals. These have been based on people expounding their views. Both Chris and Andy, among others, have had a fair old kicking ... and whether they have offended people or not, thats no way to act.


My Own Rules when Etiquette is Ignored

I'm right behind Gus on this one. As one of the 2 people he named as receiving personal abusive attacks I can advise about survival of abuse from personal experience. I'm not talking about debate and disagreement, I'm talking about abuse of a personal nature that's got nothing to do with postings or opinions expressed on the Forum.

Rule 1 - Put the Abuser on Your Ignore list.

The best course of action is to put that abusive poster on your ignore list. You don't see their posts so they don't bother you - except when someone else quotes them in their posts:tears:

Rule 2 - Don't Rise to the Bait

I think it takes two to have an argument and I've never ever responded (although some people seem to think I have :confused: ). You can not be blamed for what people say about you as you have no control over that, but you can control how you respond. Before rising to the bait consider carefully how you will look to others and also remember that people read this Forum because they're dancers, not because they like reading personal insults or defences against them. If it's not about dance it needs to be entertaining or educational (or gossip, of course:devil: )

Rule 3 - Support others when they're abused.

I have received very many PMs regarding the way I've been insulted on here. The people who know me have said they don't believe a word of it and the people who don't know me have praised my handling of the situation - it's been heartwarming to receive such support and has left me with a warm feeling about how nice people can be. So, please, if you see someone being flamed and you feel like it's not fair just send a quick supportive PM to them - whatever you do, don't prolong the argument by sticking up for them, make their insulting behavior like the sound of one hand clapping (and as I said earlier, quoting insults means that they can be seen by people who put the originator on their ignore list).

Rule 4 - Don't Ask for the Posts to be Removed

Don't even ask for the posts to be removed as that will probably just cause repetition of the same abuse. Let them have their say, don't fan the flames by responding and they will eventually run out of insults.

N.B. I've only ever asked of 2 of those rude posts to be removed and that was only recently because I thought the comments could damage a friends business and affect the amount of money raised for a good cause - I'm going to help her out at a dance to raise money for a young man who fractured his spine in an accident and is paralysed from the neck down. And still I received a torrent of abuse:tears::sick: That time I really had no choice.



Originally posted by Gus
So ... how about if we all keep the personal slandering out of it and go back to the original spirit of biting sarcasm, strong argument but none of personal aggro?

This would be perfect. But I think people need to know when we're being sarcastic. I usually use the :wink: to show that I'm only joking and don't mean what I'm saying in a literal way.

The other thing about 'biting sarcasm and strong argument' is that they're quite hard to get right. Some people may not have the capacity in terms of time (or some other factor:wink: ) to devote to the construction of this intellectual argument.

bigdjiver
24th-January-2004, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
My Own Rules when Etiquette is Ignored

Rule 1 - Put the Abuser on Your Ignore list.

Rule 2 - Don't Rise to the Bait

Rule 3 - Support others when they're abused.

Rule 4 - Don't Ask for the Posts to be Removed



An excellent basis for action.

I would only "plonk" a serial abuser, and would make it clear that I had done so on regular occasions so that nobody would think that a lack of response was an admission of guilt. Often one can learn more from ones enemies than ones friends. (e.g. "Does my ass look big in this?")

If you support others when they are attacked it is far more effective than if they do it themselves. If you are obviously in the right everybody will be able to see that. If only your friends know it, you should be able to rely on them to defend you. If you are in the wrong then the less kerfuffle you make about it, the less it will be noticed.

If there are factual errors in the attack, then it is quite in order to correct them, being as brief as possible. Do not bury facts in noise.

Only ask for posts to be removed if they are really damaging. Unjustified attacks reflect badly on the attacker