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Lounge Lizard
14th-January-2004, 10:37 PM
in 1997ish Nigel & Nina taught their blues class at Camber, the Blues and it's influence has become a big part of the ever evolving MJ scene.
In 1999 I taught the first drops and seducers class at Camber, same thing has happened - you get them everywhere.
In 2003 mikey went from the cheekiest teacher on the south coast to the cheekiest teacher in the UK, with his unique version of dirty dancing - Strictly sinful and Ménage et toi (wish I could spell)
Is this the new trend - risqué dance classes and moves for the naughties (appropriate I s'pose), or is it unique Mikey thing that no one can (or wants to) copy/emulate.

Are we sending signals to dancers that these moves are ok, or am I talking b****cks again.

If the dancers adopt these type of moves should organisers intervene or is anything goes approach ok.

Sorry for those who have not seen Mikeys class.....but if you speak to him nicely he is open to offers (no I am not his agent)
peter

ChrisA
14th-January-2004, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Is this the new trend - risqué dance classes and moves for the naughties (appropriate I s'pose), or is it unique Mikey thing that no one can (or wants to) copy/emulate.

Are we sending signals to dancers that these moves are ok, or am I talking b****cks again.
Stonking thread to start, Pete, good food for thought there.

As you know, I saw the replay of Mikey's class, and I was impressed - it looked pretty hot, quite convincing in fact, but it was fine - everyone knew it was a performance, put on by three consenting adults, and watched by adults who, albeit a bit p1ssed, knew it for what it was.

What it was NOT was mutual masturbation, consenting or otherwise.

I also spoke to a few of the ladies who had taken part in the class, and it was clear from what they said that some of the guys were undoubtedly getting off on it - without consent. :sick:

So it's a good question you raise. I think the pervs will take this kind of thing as a licence to do more of the inappropriate stuff that they're already up to.

For instance, the creep formerly known as Lurch at Hipsters in particular seems to be becoming a specialist in getting behind any attractive lady on the dance floor, and literally grinding his groin into her bum, with a horrible leer on his face as well. Doubtless he would love classes like Mikey's.

Bottom line: people that are Ok will be able to have a laugh in Mikey's classes, it will enhance aspects of their dancing with people they know well, and they will still be careful and respectful during freestyle with people they don't know so well.

The pervs will unfortunately be encouraged to do more of the same - they will be bolder.

A zero-tolerance policy back in the venues is really the only solution, I think. It would be a shame to discourage the risqué classes just because of the pervs, but if classes such as Mikey's do catch on more, it will become more of an issue.

His stuff is a little different from the dirty dancing workshops - I've been on one - because:

- they (at least the Ceroc ones, AFAIK) are fixed partners (no rotation)

- the "don't do this except with people you know well" message seems to be emphasised quite well, and

- they're pretty tame compared with Mikey's stuff.


My feeling is that Mikey's got a fairly unique space in the "market", and much more of it would change the jive culture for the worse, unless at the same time, the venue managers, teachers, and dancers all get a lot sharper in telling the pervs to **** off.

Chris

DangerousCurves
15th-January-2004, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA

His stuff is a little different from the dirty dancing workshops - I've been on one - because:

- they (at least the Ceroc ones, AFAIK) are fixed partners (no rotation)

- the "don't do this except with people you know well" message seems to be emphasised quite well, and

- they're pretty tame compared with Mikey's stuff.

Chris

Some very good thoughts there Chris.

Just to clarify on a couple of the points you touched on...

All of Mikey's "Strictly Sinfull" Classes have been with fixed partners and no rotation. As a point of policy he never puts singletons who have turned up alone into couples or trios, but lets them find people they feel comfortable with, or else gently avoid people they don't want to dance with. In fact he arranged for his class at Bognor to be re-scheduled to a later time slot specifically to permit people to find partners they could trust and be happy with.

All of Mikey's "Strictly Sinfull" Classes have had explicit advance billing as to their adult content.

The full routine is shown at the beginning of every class to permit anyone who suddenly realises that its not for them to walk away.

And, just in case anyone fears that Mikey is a depraved fiend with only one thought in his head.... he does teach a range of classes some pure as the driven snow, and others up to and including his slinky moves class - a much tamer experience where partners rotate as usual.

Incidentally, at any venue Mikey has run, he has had a zero tolerance policy on creeps and made it very easy for ladies to report any problems to him in confidence. He also keeps an eye on participants in the classes he teaches - so anyone who does think that they've just found the answer to their pervy dreams will find themselves sadly mistaken!

ChrisA
15th-January-2004, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by DangerousCurves
Just to clarify on a couple of the points you touched on...

Thanks for that DC...

The main reason I wasn't at the class :tears: was the fact that something quite different (onions) was bringing tears to my eyes, and the flesh I was feeling up was chicken :what:

:D :D

Chris

TheTramp
15th-January-2004, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Thanks for that DC...

The main reason I wasn't at the class :tears: was the fact that something quite different (onions) was bringing tears to my eyes, and the flesh I was feeling up was chicken :what: And you know what Chris.

Some people have said to me that you don't know how to have a good time!

I'll be able to put them straight on that now!! :rolleyes:

Steve

ChrisA
15th-January-2004, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Some people have said to me that you don't know how to have a good time!
I know. It's a myth I put about so that I'm not completely knackered all the time.


I'll be able to put them straight on that now!! :rolleyes:
Oh gawd, please don't :wink: :waycool:

Chris
15th-January-2004, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
in 1997ish Nigel & Nina taught their blues class at Camber, the Blues and it's influence has become a big part of the ever evolving MJ scene.
In 1999 . . . {snip enormous plug}

This really hearkens back to how teachers get themselves promoted as A list. When I first saw Peter's drops classes I talked to lots of people about them and encouraged organisers to bring him up to Scotland. I also talked about Mikey's classes a lot when I first saw them.

But Nigel and Nina pretty well invented blues as far as the uk goes, and to lump yourselves in the same category at every opportunity is not IMO really doing yourself a service. Peter and Mikey are great teachers - if they stopped trying to suggest that they invented this or invented that (drops and dirty dancing have been around a lot longer than 99) they would, IMO, get a lot more credit for what they are good at. Teachers need to know what they are good at and also how good they are at it (and the limits of that).

Peter is very good at teaching a colossal number of drops - more than anyone I've met. Mikey is good at breaking down barriers with his Sinfull classes - and his approach is unique. But as far as I know neither of them have the technical knowledge of people like Robert and Nicky, Simon de Lisle - or Nigel and Nina.

Martin
15th-January-2004, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
in 1997ish Nigel & Nina taught their blues class at Camber, the Blues and it's influence has become a big part of the ever evolving MJ scene.
In 1999 I taught the first drops and seducers class at Camber, same thing has happened - you get them everywhere.
In 2003 mikey went from the cheekiest teacher on the south coast to the cheekiest teacher in the UK, with his unique version of dirty dancing - Strictly sinful and Ménage et toi (wish I could spell)
Is this the new trend - risqué dance classes and moves for the naughties (appropriate I s'pose), or is it unique Mikey thing that no one can (or wants to) copy/emulate.

Are we sending signals to dancers that these moves are ok, or am I talking b****cks again.

If the dancers adopt these type of moves should organisers intervene or is anything goes approach ok.

Sorry for those who have not seen Mikeys class.....but if you speak to him nicely he is open to offers (no I am not his agent)
peter

Firstly the blues class by Nigel and Nina at the first class in Camber (I believe the first class was Bognor - it moved to camber later, due to numbers wanting to attend). I did this class and would not "blues" unless I know the girl is comfortable with that.

Your dips and drops (which are great) - also I will not do unless I feel the girl is comfortable.

Same goes with Mikey's latest offerings.

Nigel explains it is the thigh that leads the girl (not the "inside leg") in blues.
You explain the safety aspects of dips and drops.
Mikey gives warnings and you bring your own partner at your own risk.

I did his second class last year at camber with Mikey's demoer for the first class, whilst her face did go red occasionally, she also had a bit smile on her face and laughed a lot:D - yes I did go over the top, only for the shear fun of it to both of our amusement.
I carefully picked my partner and communicated up front that we were going to have fun and be "over the top".

I would only ever do those moves with about 6 people I know well, who love to joke around.

My brother also did that class and talked to the girl beforehand, she however did like a fair bit more "space", so he respected that and then tried the "full version" later with my partner.

There is space for all variations, that's what makes it fun - the laughs, general noise and fun element at that class far exceeded any other. Even those watching had a chuckle.

I have knowledge of many dance moves and styles, it is what you do with whom that counts.

In life as in dance there are always "inapropiate" behaviour. Some people have more human skills that others. It is only "inapropiate" when done at the wrong time, in the wrong spirit, or with the wrong person. Some people can natually guage that, some need prompting.

Martin
15th-January-2004, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by Chris
Peter and Mikey are great teachers - if they stopped trying to suggest that they invented this or invented that (drops and dirty dancing have been around a lot longer than 99) they would, IMO, get a lot more credit for what they are good at. Teachers need to know what they are good at and also how good they are at it (and the limits of that).

Peter is very good at teaching a colossal number of drops - more than anyone I've met. Mikey is good at breaking down barriers with his Sinfull classes - and his approach is unique. But as far as I know neither of them have the technical knowledge of people like Robert and Nicky, Simon de Lisle - or Nigel and Nina.

People need to promote themselves.

I have not heard either Peter or Mikey suggest that they invented the style, mearly developed it and "invented" a particular move.
Maybe it is a perception thing.

I do not think either of them claim to have more general dance technical knowledge than anyone else BUT they have specialised, so do have more "technical" knowledge in specific areas, which make for fun classes.

For example Robert would not (to the best of my knowledge, and I know him well) say he was a dips and drops specialist. Simon de Lisle (who I also know well) would not claim to be a "close moves" specialist.

Jon L
15th-January-2004, 01:30 AM
I was waiting for someone to start a thread on " Le Menage et Trois" rather then start one myself.

Let me explain I had several of my friends from Chimes formerly St. Mary's in London with me at Bognor, which made the weekend really special.

This venue meets in church and my friends including myself go to church most weeks and have Christian faiths (I covered this in a thread called what we believe in, which was posted towards the end of last year). We did the menage et trois (which may suprise most of you) but we did it knowing full well.

1) We all knew each other and dance with each often.It was a bit of fun and we knew that it was Not to be taken too seriously, we laughed an awful lot.

2) The workshop was fixed so we wouldn't suprise or offend people we don't know.

3) It is a one off and we can not repeat it in freestyle, I would never dream of doing so, and certainly never on someone who I didn't know really really well. I told Marianne this when I had the pleasure of dancing with her on Sunday.

4) We would never dream or even think of doing anything like this off the dance floor either

The point about pervs has been raised and it's good to hear from dangerous curves that Mikey wouldn't tollerate in a dance unacceptable behaviou by them.

ChrisA
15th-January-2004, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by Chris
and to lump yourselves in the same category at every opportunity is not IMO really doing yourself a service.
FWIW, I didn't read Peter's post in this light at all.

I think this is an unreasonable interpretation of his intentions in starting this thread.

Chris

ChrisA
15th-January-2004, 01:39 AM
Originally posted by Jon L
3) It is a one off and we can not repeat it in freestyle, I would never dream of doing so, and certainly never on someone who I didn't know really really well. I told Marianne this when I had the pleasure of dancing with her on Sunday.

Doubtless she was most relieved to hear it.

All credit to you, Jon, for "avoiding even the appearance of evil" :devil:

Chris

Jon L
15th-January-2004, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Doubtless she was most relieved to hear it.

All credit to you, Jon, for "avoiding even the appearance of evil" :devil:

Chris


For those wondering what Chris A is on about, please visit the Fun and Games section of the forum and take the 'How Evil are you' test.

Lounge Lizard
15th-January-2004, 10:11 AM
Chris this is not an enormous plug..
In 1999 I taught the first drops and seducers class at Camber, same thing has happened - you get them everywhere.......

You can find the enormous plug in the 'teaching dips and drops' thread:wink:

I only used Blues and drops in the same context as I can not think of anything else that started at Camber/Bognor and spread across the MJ dance scene.

With drops and seducers I have direct experience of what the impact these moves have had on the dance scene since 1999.
Yes they were around a LONG time before I started dancing.
No I did not 'invent' drops and seducers, Martin Elliot taught me and somebody probably taught him.....
Yes I have developed a number of new moves some good, some silly, some completely pants.
No I am not as good as Nigel etc. and would never claim to be.
BUT I AM the person that effectively stood on stage and told the dancers en-mass "it is ok to use these moves on the social dance floor" -
Is Mikey now doing the same?

I started this thread because there could be a trend of our dance becoming more risqué now the gates have been opened.
if we teach a move then often the dancers will expand on it - ok with Mikeys moves you need to be naked to expand on his routines:wink:
I have already heard of one guy teaching a 'strictly sinful' routine in his class after he saw Mikey's class at camber last november.
We [teachers] are always looking for new ideas for our classes but should we travel down this road.

Mikey is a friend and IMO the best 'cheekiest' teacher in the UK, his classes are the highlight of Camber/Bognor and I think he should expand on it with workshops etc. cos he is good at what he does.

I am only asking what impact it will have on the dance scene.
Would be great to hear from Franck, Gus and Mikey on this one
peter

Jon L
15th-January-2004, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Chris this is not an enormous plug..
In 1999 I taught the first drops and seducers class at Camber, same thing has happened - you get them everywhere.......

You can find the enormous plug in the 'teaching dips and drops' thread:wink:

No I am not as good as Nigel etc. and would never claim to be.
BUT I AM the person that effectively stood on stage and told the dancers en-mass "it is ok to use these moves on the social dance floor" -
Is Mikey now doing the same?

Mikey is a friend and IMO the best 'cheekiest' teacher in the UK, his classes are the highlight of Camber/Bognor and I think he should expand on it with workshops etc. cos he is good at what he does.

I am only asking what impact it will have on the dance scene.
Would be great to hear from Franck, Gus and Mikey on this one
peter


Peter: I think smiliar to your drops and seducers leaflets, the point needs to be raised very clearly of preserving decency on the dance floor, and that you do not dance them with people you don't know really well explaining the reasons why.

Now for most of us this will be common sense. However as with all things you are going to get a few twits who might contemplate trying this sort of thing out with beginners.

JamesGeary
15th-January-2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard

In 1999 I taught the first drops and seducers class at Camber, same thing has happened - you get them everywhere.......

ummmmm.... which country is this?

Gus
15th-January-2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard

BUT I AM the person that effectively stood on stage and told the dancers en-mass "it is ok to use these moves on the social dance floor" -
Is Mikey now doing the same?


OK LL ... you know I'd have to respond:wink:

All respect to those who introduce new stuff to the dancing masses ......

BUT ... at the end of the day its the poor club teachers who have to sweep up the mess. The sad reality is that after workshops like this I will have to put up with people doing moves well outside their capability, with no regard to the music and putting themselves and other at risk. No reflection on the quality of teaching ... just my personal experience. So .. don’t expect me to be singing the praises of mass workshops.

Don’t worry .. not having a go at LL. We have differing views but we agree to differ.:waycool:

Lounge Lizard
15th-January-2004, 03:25 PM
I specificaly asked gus to respond cos I know we differ on this issue, in an Ideal world workshops every time - Lots more money in a workshop than a weekender

Two years ago a friend was hurt by a moron doing drops badly, I offered EVERY class in the south east a FREE midweek lesson at their venue on drops and seducers emphasising safety points - only two booking's resulted,

I have printed do's and dont's for drops and offered them to every organisation free. but accidents still happen despite all our efforts.
Colin shaul banned them from his venue (when it was crowded) instead of being applauded for good sense - he got moans and reduced numbers.

SO back on thread this is about the (possible) new trend for increasingly risque moves.
These are not a risk to safety but could affect social the dance scene.
Should organisers intervene if they get out of hand - bearing in mind the reluctance of many to intervene on safety and pongy issues.
So Gus how do you feel about 'sinful' dancing

I think what Mikey is doing is great and brings new fun and ideas to the dance, I hope dancers are sensible enough to only introduce the 'fun' element into social dancing.

peter

DangerousCurves
15th-January-2004, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
I AM the person that effectively stood on stage and told the dancers en-mass "it is ok to use these moves on the social dance floor" -
Is Mikey now doing the same?



Some really interesting points are being raised in this thread.

Having been present at Mikey's last "Strictly Sinful" Class, I would say that it is most definitely made clear that these moves are not to be just slipped into freestyle with an unsuspecting partner! Warnings are issued in advance, and at the start of the class as to its nature. It is clearly explained WHY there will be no rotation.

The atmosphere in the class is quite unique - Its more like a party than a workshop. Every teacher has their own unique way of interacting with their class, and Mikey uses his own mixture of charm, cheekiness and self-effacing humour to set the tone of naughty adult fun. The only thing I can really compare the mood to is an Ann Summers Party, where normally sedate matrons "have a bit of a giggle" - but its quite clear to all present that you don't immediately run out into the street and show a complete stranger your new lingerie!

In fact, I don't really believe that anyone who uses dance as an opportunity to rub up to a partner and get illicit thrills is under the mistaken belief that this is acceptable behaviour. They know damn well they shouldn't do it. On another thread dancers have told of creeps who've been banned from venues, only to move on to another place where they are not known and start the same thing all over again. Attending a workshop like Mikey's might give them a few ideas for moves to add to their repertoire, but most of them can get up to enough mischief with a simple basket wrap!!! In essence, the problem with creeps lies with the nature of creeps - not the nature of dance.

From postings from other dancers who did the class its clear that everyone knows that they are learning almost a speciality "cabaret" routine, in a fun and safe environment. I would also reiterate that Mikey has no tolerance whatsoever for anyone who would try to take advantage of the class for a few cheap thrills. The classes work because of the atmosphere of trust and fun - and he would not permit that to be broken.

I think that the only way problems could arise would be if other teachers copied parts of the routines and used them as standard moves in weekly classes. Without Mikey's cheeky presence, and the uniquely special atmoshere of the "Strictly Sinful" Classes, standard repetition of such moves (even by those with innocent intent) would alter the tone of freestyle MJ, which could put off some dancers. I believe that its better to have classes like this as specialities, which people can chose whether or not to attend, rather than making the moves mainstream. Mikey himself does teach a wide range of classes - his "Sweet and Sassy" classes are playful and cheeky without being XXX rated, and he is also IMHO one of the best straight teachers of standard MJ going.

I would also say, for those who have not seen them, that Mikey's "Strictly Sinful" routines do not feature moves that place the participants at any risk of physical injury.... moral turpitude maybe, but not physical injury! :devil:

Minnie M
15th-January-2004, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Jon L
I4) We would never dream or even think of doing anything like this off the dance floor either


I watched Mikey's class with Rachel and it was great fun, and as Jon has said above did not expect ANYONE to actually do it on the dance floor - but was really embarassed (yes me :blush: ) to see two guys+1 lady (IMHO both gay) doing it (on main dance floor) and OVER doing the sleaze bits (the younger chap was in the middle) - possibly a one off but it does give food for thought

Tazmanian Devil
15th-January-2004, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
I have printed do's and dont's for drops and offered them to every organisation free. but accidents still happen despite all our efforts.

Unfortunately accidents will always happen. Having read your do's and dont's I think your instructions are very precise and logical for both the men and the ladys. Unfortunately some people think they dont need to know the factual information because they haven't had an accident so far!! :rolleyes:




Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
SO back on thread this is about the (possible) new trend for increasingly risque moves.
These are not a risk to safety but could affect social the dance scene.
Should organisers intervene if they get out of hand - bearing in mind the reluctance of many to intervene on safety and pongy issues.

Yes I think they should, I love Mikeys classes I think he's a great teacher and creates a fun yet cheeky class!! But when it comes to freestyle there is a limit to how far you go with the moves. I am probly going to get badgered for that remark as I do alot of up close and personal moves but they are not taken too far. :wink:




Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
I think what Mikey is doing is great and brings new fun and ideas to the dance, I hope dancers are sensible enough to only introduce the 'fun' element into social dancing.


Here here :kiss: :hug:

ChrisA
15th-January-2004, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
I am probly going to get badgered for that remark as I do alot of up close and personal moves but they are not taken too far. :wink:

Not by me :hug:

There's nothing wrong with UCP - and the Ok people have an instinctive knowledge of when it's Ok and when it's not.

As DC has said, it's only the pervs that don't have this instinctive understanding. Or rather, they probably do have it, but choose to take advantage anyway.

The weird thing is, there's something completely missing from some of these guys... even after being banned from several venues I know at least one git that is convinced that he's in the right, and that he's being treated unreasonably by all these venues.

Go figure... :sick:

Chris

Tazmanian Devil
15th-January-2004, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Not by me :hug:


No darling as I remember you were a complete gentleman :wink:

Gus
16th-January-2004, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
So Gus how do you feel about 'sinful' dancing


Sorry ... can't comment cause I've never seen it:nice:

In general ... I see the same problems (yes, I know I'm a miserable bugger) as with drops workshops. Despite all the attention you give, there will always be muppets who manage to twist it. If anything I'm more nervous about sleezeballs than drop merchants .. because there are more of them and they can cause even more damage (emotional rather than physical).

My issue isn't with the teaching, its in the application. As to whether Mikey's classes could make the situation worse ... I doubt it. Those that want to sleeze have a wide range of Blues moves that they can use ... a 'sinful' move would be too blatent!

In answer to a comment Tramp made (I think) ... I agree that you shouldn't restrict the masses because of the few ... but I think it is down to the venue managers and club teachers to ensure that the general public can continue to dance without pressure from dangerous or sleezy dancers.

Any of the above make any sense:sick:

ChrisA
16th-January-2004, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
No darling as I remember you were a complete gentleman :wink: Quite right...

... but I can be as sinful as required. :waycool:

Chris

bigdjiver
16th-January-2004, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
The weird thing is, there's something completely missing from some of these guys... even after being banned from several venues I know at least one git that is convinced that he's in the right, and that he's being treated unreasonably by all these venues.

Go figure... :sick:

Chris

There was one guy, nicknamed "stiffy", who was barred after being complained about by several women. He was a superb dancer, and I have seen three ladies at a time making a rush for him when he became free on the dance floor. I can imagine him quoting his popularity as a reason for not being banned, and the small number of ladies refusing to dance with him.

There is another dancer I know that I have seen a couple of doing a move that involves deliberate repetitious massaging contact with the ladies breast. He is, as far as I know, not barred from anywhere, and is very popular with a lot of ladies. On the other hand I never saw one "victim?" again.

I did start to describe the move to a to a teacher as a warning, but she said "I hate it when he does that", implying that she had been a victim more than once.

If barred I could well imagine him saying in his defence that most of his partners came back for more, many asked him, and very, very few refused him.

It is the ladies not saying "No" that I cannot figure.

Graham W
16th-January-2004, 03:30 PM
seems like there's a bit of uness rivalry going on to me, as an observer..

G

Rachel
16th-January-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
There was one guy, nicknamed "stiffy", who was barred after being complained about by several women. He was a superb dancer, and I have seen three ladies at a time making a rush for him when he became free on the dance floor.... I think I used to know this guy! You're right, he was a great dancer. Such a shame he used to spoil it by trying to get too close.... I would always agree to one dance with him in an evening, if he asked, and just made sure that I forced a reasonable distance between us at all times. That seemed to work for me, so I never felt the need to complain. And if other ladies were still after him for a dance, then, well, it's their choice, isn't it? It's when you say 'no' to someone, but they still keep doing it, that's a real problem and should be reported.

As for Mikey and Peters' classes - I agree with the 'you can't ban it from the masses just because of occasional people who will abuse it' philosopy. Yes, those 'abusers' do need to be dealt with very firmly. But it's obviously not putting people off doing these classes/workshops - you just have to look at the huge popularity of them!! If people didn't learn drops/dirty dancing from Peter and Mikey, they'd discover it and learn it elsewhere eventually - you'd never stop them doing it. And better that they learn from the best teachers, no?
Rachel

Mikey
26th-January-2004, 10:19 PM
“The shape of things to come”

What an enormous compliment those few words were.. thank you, LL.
(Cheque is in the post)

Well, as pointed out no I have not invented anything new with the “SS” I have merely taken the old boring dirty jiving or dirty dance classes to a new level. One which is purely for fixed partners and mainly taught for its ENTERTAINMENT value alone.

Are these moves as acceptable as those Ceroc might teach you ask? Well, all I can say is they must be since one of their teachers who came to Bognor called Richard Oliver and enjoyed my class so much, he then repeated it at a dance in Harrow shortly afterwards! I wonder if I was given credit for where it came from. I doubt it somehow. He even had his demonstrator dress like Marianne… although no one could look as perfect for SS as Marianne does… So based on that I must be teaching acceptable moves …

I do make a point of telling all present at my classes how naughty it will be and that if they could be easily offended, leave the class now… if they are not with a fixed partner I do not encourage anyone to grab someone off the side. And yes, I do demo my class for all to see prior to teaching it… So there are many points before, let alone during the class any individual/couple not comfortable can leave and I have seen people do so… without me making any remarks towards them of any kind… not even in fun.

I will also say that, as I have done in my own venues in the past and will do in the SS, should I ever find an individual going to far and causing distress to any person I will remove them promptly and anyone who knows me well, will know it may not be dignified an exit either.


Can what I teach be done in general dance?

On the whole the answer is no… If you’re with your own partner and you want to be naughty and do some SS moves, that's cool. If you’re with a partner whom you do not know intimately and you attempt some SS moves, quite simply, you have balls bigger than I, who taught it... and when she slaps you, take note!
I do hope however that what I teach is adapted by couples and enjoyed on a tamer level in general dancing. After all, could a blues class not go down the same path? Could a dirty jive/dance class not be taken to a new level, by a couple or individual and adapted to become almost SS?
The point I am making is… I took a chance and taught it… I recall my nuts shrinking to the size of peas when I stood in front of 1500 people on a Saturday night at Camber and saying.. "Tomorrow I will teach my version of dirty dancing which I promise will be naughtier than anything you will have ever done before" I staked my reputation as a teacher on it. I am glad to say no one seemed to be disappointed or disagree… But the most common thing said to me? That was such good fun, I have not laughed so much at a class, and it was so entertaining... etc… etc… it's what I aimed for then and still do now…

DangerousCurves says it all…

“In essence, the problem with creeps lies with the nature of creeps - not the nature of dance.”



The Aftermath

I am pleased to say that 90% of feedback has been positive apart from the following 10%....


Having taught the strictly sinful classes at Camber and Bognor in the last year… and as some may have seen part of my class was filmed at camber and put on the video for all to see… it showed a lot of people having a really good laugh and enjoying themselves.. They were all aware they were being filmed as it was on a large screen in front of them at the time, so no secret there...

Again at Bognor recently the class was filmed again for the same entertainment reasons to possibly add to the Bognor video and make it a little different once more.... again it was not secret filming, it was taking place along side on BOTH occasions, a lot of picture taking by people who were friends etc. just watching the class for fun...

My problem is... after Bognor I received a copy of an e mail from Franco, informing me that he had 3 complaints from people who did not want to appear in the video and I guess from his reaction, threatened legal action if they did.. Franco informed me, all video from Camber and Bognor was to be destroyed as a result...

Now, what pi**es me off and hurts me the most is that these people not only did my class but were verbally warned prior to starting my class of it's adult nature. Then, as always, watched me demo the class and listened to me tell them about the videoing and of course they saw the taping on the huge screen!! Yet still, for their own selfish reasons, saw fit to complain and spoil it for others AFTER the event !!!

All I can say to those people is whatever your reasons I sincerely hope you do not appear on one of the many many photographs taken by the public on that occasion!!!

The future

Other than my one commitment of a SS class at the Stompin weekender (Brighton in March), I am not sure when I will teach a SS class again, If at all.


I hope this clears up some questions, if not, just ask…

Mikey:waycool:

Lounge Lizard
27th-January-2004, 01:23 AM
MIKEY, you are welcome mate. A deserved comment IMO

I expect the complaints with the video's was more to do with personal issues relating to the dance partner than anything else.
I don't think anyone should complain about your class.
It was very open and clear regarding content.
Sinfull double trouble please
peter

Dan
27th-January-2004, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by Mikey
“The shape of things to come”


My problem is... after Bognor I received a copy of an e mail from Franco, informing me that he had 3 complaints from people who did not want to appear in the video and I guess from his reaction, threatened legal action if they did.. Franco informed me, all video from Camber and Bognor was to be destroyed as a result...


The future

Other than my one commitment of a SS class at the Stompin weekender (Brighton in March), I am not sure when I will teach a SS class again, If at all.


Mikey:waycool:

I am no lawyer, but in my opinion the people who have complained should be asked to compensate the organisers and the teachers and DJs for their loss of income. Then they would be entitled to have the videos destroyed.

I also think that these idiots only have a point if the organisers, teachers and DJs make money from the "offensive videos". My theory (unproven!) is that if no one benefits financially from them, there is no reason for them to be destroyed. These people agreed on the holiday application form that they could be filmed, they are told in class that they would be filmed. And they were in that class were they not? What is their issue then - that they were not there ? That you made them do these things against their will ?

Mikey, I have said it on another thread, I am no follower of your SS class, but IMO you would be wrong to stop teaching a class which obviously very popular on the basis of some idiots who have personal issues of their own making. From the postings that you have made on this forum, this is so not like you.

Martin
27th-January-2004, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Mikey
The future

Other than my one commitment of a SS class at the Stompin weekender (Brighton in March), I am not sure when I will teach a SS class again, If at all.


I hope this clears up some questions, if not, just ask…

Mikey:waycool:

It is quite simple, do as in Camber May 2003 and run through the class after and video that.

PLEASE do not stop your "entertainment section" it is both fun and a good break from the norm (I know you are a skilled teacher and the "norm" would be easy for you), the point is you are providing what people want, or they would not turn up.

Some of the past "dirty dancing" sessions were truely "SAD". OK you have taken it to another level, people can choose.

The question is "Why do you get so MANY people turn up?" - IMHO coz it is fun, a good laugh and produces red faces, stretching of boundries and "Pure gold".

BTW - Minnie M and Rachel, you cannot hide I would be happy to do Mikey's class with you both
:wink:

Personally I hate videoing of the class as I do not want to be on video unless I have initiated it (e.g. demoing the class or doing a showcase)

I came across the video thing many years ago in Brighton where someone would video me. My perception at the time was that, I am dancing, leave me alone. Either you are looking to steal my signiture moves or tape me without permission. Just because I turn up to an event, does not mean I want to be on video.

bigdjiver
27th-January-2004, 12:43 PM
[B] 3 complaints from people who did not want to appear in the video [B] The problem for the filmed is that they do not know what is going to appear on the video when they agreed beforehand. One has only to look at the "Are you being framed" type shows to see what unexpted things that can happen.

It is one thing to see the demonstrators doing the move looking cool and sexy, but, as most of us know, it does not look anything like what was demonstrated when we try it. Most of us have managed to look embarrassing trying normal class moves.

Videoing such classes, in general, may be a bad idea.

Mikey
27th-January-2004, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
The problem for the filmed is that they do not know what is going to appear on the video when they agreed beforehand. One has only to look at the "Are you being framed" type shows to see what unexpted things that can happen.

It is one thing to see the demonstrators doing the move looking cool and sexy, but, as most of us know, it does not look anything like what was demonstrated when we try it. Most of us have managed to look embarrassing trying normal class moves.

Videoing such classes, in general, may be a bad idea.


Thats a good and valid point, but what Steve strong wanted to show was the smiles on faces, the laughter etc.. it would not be good business to ridicule anyone doing that class, other than the teacher perhaps. He managed to do this within the recent Camber video and he had quiet a few people contact him saying how much they liked it personally.

bobgadjet
27th-January-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Mikey
“The shape of things to come”

Other than my one commitment of a SS class at the Stompin weekender (Brighton in March), I am not sure when I will teach a SS class again, If at all.

I hope this clears up some questions, if not, just ask…

Mikey:waycool:

Well, in the short time I have known you I would not have thought that the biggotted opinion and requirements of 3 people would have swayed you to think about never doing one of the most entertaining forms of lesson I have ever had the priveledge of doing. (Bognor last year). I only wish I could have been at both lessons.

Please be encouraged by all that has gone before in this thread and continue with SS lessons.:waycool:

I know what a feeling you must get when you take a class in excess of 1500, and ALL of them go away wanting more, and above all, singing your praises.

I also agree with the comments made with regard to those who apparently wanted to sue Franco if the vids were not destroyed. Who do they think they are? They were obviously IMHO with somebody they knew they should not have been with, but that's their problem. Compensation.... YES go for it, why not.

I hope to see you again soon, AND take part in a SS class, so PLEEEEEEEASE don't give up the best fun one can have with a pair of dance shoes on. :)

Rachel
27th-January-2004, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Martin
...BTW - Minnie M and Rachel, you cannot hide I would be happy to do Mikey's class with you both :wink: You're on! Minnie?
R. x

Martin
27th-January-2004, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
You're on! Minnie?
R. x

Go on Minnie - oh Smooooooth one......:hug:

bobgadjet
27th-January-2004, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Martin
Go on Minnie - oh Smooooooth one......:hug:


Will you be making a video ? :what:

Martin
27th-January-2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by bobgadjet
Will you be making a video ? :what:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Rachel comes so highly recommended, after all my demoer (Adriana) just LOVED dancing with her partner, and I have been told, she is SO great to dance with - can't wait - and Minnie M, well I can dance ANY track with her as she follows like a dream.

As to videos - all the expletives are ******ed out here so cannot comment :D

bobgadjet
27th-January-2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Martin

and Minnie M, well I can dance ANY track with her as she follows like a dream.


I can agree with that.

Minnie, you are an inspiration to all of us when we need encouragement, and I thank you for that :hug:

Martin
27th-January-2004, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by bobgadjet
I can agree with that.

Minnie, you are an inspiration to all of us when we need encouragement, and I thank you for that :hug:

Guy's she is SOOO good:kiss:

Lory
27th-January-2004, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Martin
Guy's she is SOOO good:kiss:
Her girlie friends love her too!!!!:hug:

Martin
27th-January-2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Lory
Her girlie friends love her too!!!!:hug:

Maybe we have a 4?

Here we go, Tramp watch out...

TheTramp
28th-January-2004, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by Martin
Maybe we have a 4?

Here we go, Tramp watch out... Watch out? For what? Are you taking up far too much space on the dancefloor again, Martin??

Steve

Minnie M
28th-January-2004, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by Martin
Go on Minnie - oh Smooooooth one......:hug:

I am extremely flattered :kiss: :hug: but I don't think so.......:blush:


Originally posted by Martin
....... and Minnie M, well I can dance ANY track with her as she follows like a dream.

wow and wow again :blush: :blush: :blush: I really can't believe such wonderful things you are saying - :confused:

come one :wink: people don't say such nice things about my dancing - how much do I owe you ?

Minnie M
28th-January-2004, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by bobgadjet
I can agree with that.

Minnie, you are an inspiration to all of us when we need encouragement, and I thank you for that :hug:

You too Bob - come on, what is going on here :confused:

bobgadjet
28th-January-2004, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by Minnie M
You too Bob - come on, what is going on here :confused:

Praise where it's due, in my opinion

:kiss:

Minnie M
28th-January-2004, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by bobgadjet
Praise where it's due, in my opinion

:kiss:

Well:blush: thank:blush: you:blush: kind:blush: sir:blush:

BIG HUGS :hug:

Lynda


and of course thank you Martin MORE BIG HUGS :hug:

bobgadjet
28th-January-2004, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Minnie M
BIG HUGS :hug:
Lynda


What a LURVLY warm thought on this cold wednesday night.

:kiss:

Mikey
28th-January-2004, 06:36 PM
Maybe I will have to a sinful class just for the lovely Minnie and her fans... :hug:

Lounge Lizard
16th-March-2004, 10:51 AM
Thought I would resurrect this thread after seeing Blackpool.

The reason I started this one was cos I thought the dance may be going in a different direction following Mikey's strictly sinful classes effetely giving the green light to risqué dance style
[unfortunately it sort of turned into a peter/mikey 'who do they think they are' debate]

The winning showcase at Blackpool was risqué [I am not saying they got the idea from Mikey so don't flame please] as were some of the others.

I met up with Steve & Jo last night and they commented that they felt it necessary to incorporate these moves into their sacrifice routine [also putting more big moves in cos the middle of the routine was a bit flat].

I wonder if others are thinking of dancing this for future competitions - cant wait to see Viktor and Lily doing a sinful routine/cabaret.......only joking.


Peter

ChrisA
16th-March-2004, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
I met up with Steve & Jo last night and they commented that they felt it necessary to incorporate these moves into their sacrifice routine.

Having some form of overtly sexual component running through a dance routine in a performance is neither new or unusual (most MTV videos for instance) - and unless it's done in a crass way it can be perfectly appropriate.

But there's a big difference between performing a showcase that has a theme with artistically justified - even required - sexual overtones, and arbitrarily sticking more sexy moves into a routine that is otherwise dull.

I think such a difference would be noticed in the judging.

Not that I'm saying I thought Steve and Jo's routine was dull - far from it. Personally I liked their showcase, and I was most impressed with the polish that was evident compared with when we saw it at Bognor in January.

I even think that a sexual twist is appropriate (if a little scary :D ) in that Gothic/human sacrifice theme.

But I'd be a bit disappointed if there was any cynical "we need more sex in it to stand a chance of winning" thinking behind the choreography.




[also putting more big moves in cos the middle of the routine was a bit flat]

This is a different question, surely? If you're going to do an aerials showcase it needs to be impressive with big and unusual moves, doesn't it?

Chris

LilyB
16th-March-2004, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
..... cant wait to see Viktor and Lily doing a sinful routine/cabaret.......only joking.


Peter

Noooooo waaaaaay!!!!!!! :sick: :sick: :sick:

ChrisA
16th-March-2004, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by LilyB
Noooooo waaaaaay!!!!!!! :sick: :sick: :sick:
Awwwwwwwwww.... why ever not? :drool:

Someone could make sure David was doing something else at the time....

Any volunteers to distract him? :devil:

Gareth
17th-March-2004, 01:06 AM
Mikey,
keep on with your great classes, would love to do a M.E.3 class.

Jill & I loved your class, we adapted a couple of your moves for a dirty dancing competition and later our showcase. Those moves always get a great reception. Your a big inspiration mate, don`t let them put you down :cheers:

There`s room for all variants of Jive. The more the merrier. :grin:

See you soon

GARETH & JILL

Daniel Sandars
19th-March-2004, 01:27 PM
Cheeky/ Sexually evokative dancing has a place as a genuine response to the mood, the dancers and the music.

However, it is no cureall and dancers need to be able explore different styling to express the full range of human emotion and not just the ones that appeal to voyeurs.

The other difficulty I have, with some of the moves, is that the sensuality is male dominated and thus women get lead into situations they don't always want to be in. It is much more sustainable if the female is styling up the dance of her own freewill, given leads that create space and opportunity.

I can see this stuff becoming the spice of Jive, with the appeal of the taboo, but I can't see it becoming an essential necessity (nor should it)

Dan

Martin
20th-March-2004, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Daniel Sandars
Cheeky/ Sexually evokative dancing has a place as a genuine response to the mood, the dancers and the music.

However, it is no cureall and dancers need to be able explore different styling to express the full range of human emotion and not just the ones that appeal to voyeurs.

The other difficulty I have, with some of the moves, is that the sensuality is male dominated and thus women get lead into situations they don't always want to be in. It is much more sustainable if the female is styling up the dance of her own freewill, given leads that create space and opportunity.

I can see this stuff becoming the spice of Jive, with the appeal of the taboo, but I can't see it becoming an essential necessity (nor should it)

Dan

Well none of it is needed, and certainly not a necessity. Though having given some girls some "room" after the great gala that was put on in Aussie last night - I was the one with the red face:blush:

A jolly roger is all good fun, but when 3 girls in a row decide to do a triple sweep :worthy: :worthy: