Top Teachers?

[Gus]

Originally posted by johnah
......the line-up of "Top Teachers" now includes:

Nigel Anderson & Nina Daines; Amir & Kate; Viktor Andeke;
Graham LeClerc & Sarah, Peter Phillips; Mikey; Steve Lampart; Robin & Raven
David Martin & Jaime; Sue Freeman; Jatinder Singh


OK ... time to get this off my chest once and for all....

As per my first posting on this thread, the curse of using the phrase 'Top Teachers' now comes to fruition. There is no doubt that few would have any problem with likes of N&N, Amir and Kate; Viktor Andeke; Sue Freeman etc. being described as such. BUT, and no offence to the rest of the instructors ..... can all instructors who turn up at these events be described as 'Top'??

It seems that the step from being just an everyday club instructor to being a star is to be present on one of these weekends. I'm sorry but doesn't the Trade Description act come in to play? People pay good money for these events and if they think every teacher is going to be the same standard as Viktor then they are going to be let down.

I'm NOT dissing Trampy etc., but I'm sure they would be the first to admit that they are not in the same league as the A list. Would it be so hard for a bit of realisim to creep into some of the marketing blurb :what:

Oh ... and I'm not having a direct go at JiveAdditiction ... I think its great that they are putting this event on and I have a great deal of respect for what Wes has managed to achieve ..... just got a bit of a bug about the whole 'Top Teacher' thing:sorry

[Dance Demon]

C'mon Gus.......sureley you don't expect anyone to sell their event by advertising " Average teachers" or " run of the mill tuition"...
everyone has their own opinion of who are the "Top teachers, or A list" are.......if you go along and learn something new or different, then the object of the excercise has been achieved.
Everyone has to work hard to achieve "top of their field " status......and even N&N, V&L et al were possibly billed as " Top teachers" before they reached their pinnacle.........
Everyones perception of who is best is different. one of the best workshops I've ever been on was the one in Aberdeen with Adam & Mandy.......who don't often get a mention when it comes to the "A list"

[Martin]

Originally posted by Gus
OK ... time to get this off my chest once and for all....

As per my first posting on this thread, the curse of using the phrase 'Top Teachers' now comes to fruition. There is no doubt that few would have any problem with likes of N&N, Amir and Kate; Viktor Andeke; Sue Freeman etc. being described as such. BUT, and no offence to the rest of the instructors ..... can all instructors who turn up at these events be described as 'Top'??

It seems that the step from being just an everyday club instructor to being a star is to be present on one of these weekends. I'm sorry but doesn't the Trade Description act come in to play? People pay good money for these events and if they think every teacher is going to be the same standard as Viktor then they are going to be let down.

I'm NOT dissing Trampy etc., but I'm sure they would be the first to admit that they are not in the same league as the A list. Would it be so hard for a bit of realisim to creep into some of the marketing blurb :what:



On the web-site it says "Top class teachers" and "Top DJ's".
It does not state that ALL of the teachers and DJ's are top class, only that there are some in the plural (more than 1).

It really is to indicate to the locals that they are not getting their usual run of the mill teacher that they see week on week.

As experienced dancers and teachers it is easy to get that "here we go again feeling". When I read the first post I did think, oh yeh someone else cashing in, same old stuff. On reflection what we need to remember is that there are lots of dancers who have been dancing less than 5,10,15 years who are less skeptical.


As to Trampy, to a local he would be a "top class teacher", it depends on your perception. [Hey Tramps, I think you are top class anyway, although I must admit I have never seen you teach
:grin: ]

One thing strange about the web-site though is it features Donna (who is in Sydney) and also Robert [top right] (who is also in Sydney) - this seems a bit misleading? Was permission granted to put these pictures up?

[Gus]

Originally posted by Dance Demon
C'mon Gus.......sureley you don't expect anyone to sell their event by advertising " Average teachers" or " run of the mill tuition"...


But if that was the truth (and I'm not saying it si) then shouldn't the advertising reflect reality?

I've seen classes by so-called 'Top Teachers' which were amateur in the extreme ... the converse is also true ... I remember seeing Dan Baines in his early days .... seeing Amir before his reputation was established ... granted, everyone has to start somewhere but I'm not sure why everyone else on the planet advertising something is supposed to have an element of fact in their advertising whereas ALL workshops teachers/DJs seem to be advertised as 'TOP' regardless of content.:sad:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Martin
As to Trampy, to a local he would be a "top class teacher", it depends on your perception. [Hey Tramps, I think you are top class anyway, although I must admit I have never seen you teach
:grin: ]That's okie. Neither has Gus!! :D

Steve

[Lounge Lizard]

Hi Gus
top teachers
I would take this to include specialist in their field
I am an average dancer and teacher, but I think I am one of the leading teachers in drops and seducers - I know that there is a separate debate on whether these moves should be taught en-mass to large groups, but that aside I still get about 1000 in my Class at Camber.

Mikey is not an A list teacher but he had the best class at the last two Camber's with strictly sinful, so yes he is a top teacher in that respect

Steve (I assume will be teaching aerials) is a dancer and a dj who teaches occasionally.
I have seen some very scary air steps classes & some impossible ones taught by so called teachers, I know Steve teaches sensible and safe moves - Andy & Rena are the 'tops' in air steps, yes, but as they are at Rock bottoms during the same weekend so Steve IMO is next on the list.
I have just checked out the Stompin at Brighton website which

also bills 'The Top Teachers'.......guess who is included in the line up:wink:

I think if an event bill's top teachers and does not have anyone from the A list then that is wrong, but a mixture of A list, specialist and the best of the club teachers is ok

on a final point I have been taught by (and with) all the A list teachers including Robert Cordoba - my best lesson for moves fun teaching style etc...
A certain Scottish gentleman who was teaching in Barcelona, nice one Bill:cheers:

[Lory]

I agree with Peter

It all depends on what criteria your judging people to be top. I go to Nigels class at Hipsters every week, he has a brilliant super slick style of teaching and definitely A list material! He's taught me a lot but I don't think he's ever made me laugh out loud (apart from maybe once, when Nina and him had a row or when I've actually been dancing with him)

:D

I've also been to several of Mikey's classes, he doesn't teach serious complex dance routines on the weekenders (although he CAN but on the weekenders he leaves that to others) his speciality is entertainment, the atmosphere and buzz he creates in one of his lessons is second to none! I've seen rooms packed wall to wall with people in stitches and tears rolling down their faces. (and that includes people just watching) :rofl: He is without doubt the TOP in this criteria!

:cheers:

I like both, some people don't but don't you think it's important to have variation and choice on a weekender?


:grin:

[johnah]

I agree wholeheartedly with Lory & Peter, especially Lory's final point about a Jive Weekender providing "VARIATION & CHOICE". To that may I add FUN FUN FUN and, as Lory says, Mikey provides an abundance of that!

A weekender brings together a host of dancers with various degrees of dance ability and in my view, one has to endeavour to provide an event with elements that offers something for everyone if at all possible. The line-up being put together for Southport will do just that in my opinion. And, I believe they are ALL talented teachers.

:cheers:

John AH

[Martin]

Originally posted by johnah
I agree wholeheartedly with Lory & Peter, especially Lory's final point about a Jive Weekender providing "VARIATION & CHOICE". To that may I add FUN FUN FUN and, as Lory says, Mikey provides an abundance of that!

A weekender brings together a host of dancers with various degrees of dance ability and in my view, one has to endeavour to provide an event with elements that offers something for everyone if at all possible. The line-up being put together for Southport will do just that in my opinion. And, I believe they are ALL talented teachers.

:cheers:

John AH

Totally agree Johnah, still curious about those photos on the web-site:D

[johnah]

Originally posted by Martin
Totally agree Johnah, still curious about those photos on the web-site:D

Hi Martin. Are you Martin Elliott?

The pics used on the Jive Addiction website masthead [and of Donna] are purely illustrative of Modern Jive and dancers having a GOOD time! They were taken at events over here and are being used with the photographers permission.

Latest information on Teachers/DJs with accompanying pics will appear on the website shortly.

:waycool:

:cheers:

[Martin]

Originally posted by johnah
Hi Martin. Are you Martin Elliott?

The pics used on the Jive Addiction website masthead [and of Donna] are purely illustrative of Modern Jive and dancers having a GOOD time! They were taken at events over here and are being used with the photographers permission.

Latest information on Teachers/DJs with accompanying pics will appear on the website shortly.

:waycool:

:cheers:

Hey I don't want to get TOO perdantic (as I am keen to come over and teach at your wonderful week-end):what:

My question was have you got the "dancers" permission.:sorry

Yes me Martin Elliott, coming over April, May with another top Aussie teacher, corrie bod, keen to travel UK and looking for a good time and accomadation (lots of hints and stuff).
Got nagged by Lily as to when I am next over, Lily must be obayed, so this is it...

I will send photo (love to teach), look out for Aussie moves and style at this great week-end...:cheers: :cheers:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard

top teachers
I would take this to include specialist in their field
I am an average dancer and teacher, but I think I am one of the leading teachers in drops and seducers - I know that there is a separate debate on whether these moves should be taught en-mass to large groups, but that aside I still get about 1000 in my Class at Camber.


Fair comment. What I expressed was a personal view of how I interpret the phrase 'Top Teachers'. I'm not trying to comment on how good the teachers in the line up are, as you say they have all proven their worth elsewhere .... I think Johnha's commented re them being 'talented' is spot on.

Sorry if I stirred up personal feeling .. maybe I didnt think my original posting through. However, I still think that Top Teacher does make an implication that there is no better ... amybe in terms of reputation rather than maybe actual skills. I dunno ... but I think the comments made have shown that the teachers involved do seem to habe a high regard from members of the Forum:waycool:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
But if that was the truth (and I'm not saying it si) then shouldn't the advertising reflect reality? That might be a little 'optimistic' :wink:

In reality, anyone can call any teacher (or even any dancer) a top teacher when advertising their event... The term is completely meaningless in practise. I have used it myself, though recently, I have preferred the term: 'Guest teachers'...

Having said that, using the term 'Top teachers' and the having second rate line up, will reflect badly on the organizer, and maintaining a good reputation as an events promoter is very tough these days (especially with immediate feedback on the Forum)

As a few people have commented, a 'top' teacher is very relative, to your audience, what you're used to and what the event is about! Finally there is often a big confusion between top dancer and top teacher!

[Bill]

It is all relative and I've only been to one class where I thought the teacher was 'dire' but the regulars seemed to think he was great. Maybe I just didn't get his 'humour' but I felt the teaching was poor and the instruction less than clear.

I've seen this teacher a couple of times and felt he was rather patronising but again it may be just a different view of what humour is.

[johnah]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Martin
My question was have you got the "dancers" permission.:sorry

Photographers own the copyright in any pics they take Martin, and it is from them that we had to get permission - which we did!

We're looking forward to having you and Corrie with us at the Southport Jive Extravadanca!
:waycool:

The Line-up of Teachers at Southport - be they called "Top", "A list" or whatever - is, without doubt, the best gathering of talented teachers brought together in the North. So, all you dancers, look forward to a non-stop weekend Jive party. Southport WILL be a weekend event NOT TO BE MISSED!!!
:drool:

[Martin]

Originally posted by johnah
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Martin
My question was have you got the "dancers" permission.:sorry

Photographers own the copyright in any pics they take Martin, and it is from them that we had to get permission - which we did!

We're looking forward to having you and Corrie with us at the Southport Jive Extravadanca!
:waycool:

The Line-up of Teachers at Southport - be they called "Top", "A list" or whatever - is, without doubt, the best gathering of talented teachers brought together in the North. So, all you dancers, look forward to a non-stop weekend Jive party. Southport WILL be a weekend event NOT TO BE MISSED!!!
:drool:

All good stuff - time to book in folks:cheers:

[stewart38]

Originally posted by Gus
.

I still think that Top Teacher does make an implication that there is no better ... amybe in terms of reputation rather than maybe actual skills.

It interesting re what we think words mean

I would think (and I'm not saying its right) a 'top teacher' is in the top 20% not there is no one better

What is a average cerocer ? a average teacher ?

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Dance Demon

Everyones perception of who is best is different. one of the best workshops I've ever been on was the one in Aberdeen with Adam & Mandy.......who don't often get a mention when it comes to the "A list"

There actually is no "A" list! It is a Gus invention. A personal list of favourites that has been iconised by a phrase.

Not that I'm dissing anyone's right to have a list of favourites, they should. Its a sign they actually have an opinion. But I am sure there are plenty of great teachers who never teach out of their own area, and there is no way anyone could have been round and tried out all of these people's classes.

I must admit the idea of billing a class as being taught by 'average teachers' is amusing. I don't think anyone would agree to teach the class!

[johnah]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
There actually is no "A" list! It is a Gus invention. A personal list of favourites that has been iconised by a phrase.

Not that I'm dissing anyone's right to have a list of favourites, they should. Its a sign they actually have an opinion. But I am sure there are plenty of great teachers who never teach out of their own area, and there is no way anyone could have been round and tried out all of these people's classes.

I must admit the idea of billing a class as being taught by 'average teachers' is amusing. I don't think anyone would agree to teach the class!

Got it in one James!

:cheers:

[Gus]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Not that I'm dissing anyone's right to have a list of favourites, they should. Its a sign they actually have an opinion. But I am sure there are plenty of great teachers who never teach out of their own area, and there is no way anyone could have been round and tried out all of these people's classes.


Very true. The big advantage of events such as Rye, Southport etc is that they have given 'local' teachers a chance to make their mark on the main stage .... should they so desire. I've no idea how many MJ instructors there are, but as there are about 120 CTA teachers I would think there would be at least the same number of non-Ceroc teachers. This would suggest that there are a hell of a lot of teachers that most of us have never seen ... and likely to remain that way.

My A list is just my term for the teachers that I generally hear referred to as the best of the group. This opinion has been based on who I've seen .... so I would be the first to admit that this is based on only a small % of teachers. Having said that I've never seen Andy and Mandy teach yet I've had it on good authority that they are amazing ... so they are another couple who's workshop I'd like to attend.

There will always be teachers who don’t want the limelight and who are quite happy to teach on their own patch. Andy Bragg from Ceroc Whythall seems to be in that category. When last I heard he doesn't seem to teach about much but he was always a very popular attraction when he came up to Ceroc Nantwich.

[Jive Brummie]

Surely a Top Teacher is somebody who's lesson you get a lot from.
Viktor may be a dance genius but if his style doesn't suit your's then you won't think of him as a top teacher.............??

........in the same way as a weed is just a plant that you don't want...........

......is anybody following this or am I talking kack:confused:

James........:wink:

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by Jive Brummie
......is anybody following this or am I talking kack:confused:

James........:wink:
No James, I think you're quite right. We all will have our own opinions as to who are the best teachers, and this will depend on what it is we feel we need to learn at that precise moment in time.

Adam and Mandy's workshops in Aberdeen a short while ago were definitely some of the best I've been on.
Adam was on "top" form again in Perth - but then he did have Lisa to help him that time :wink:
Franck also brought H and Kirsty to Scotland (2002?) and they were great too.
and let's not forget our own -
Lorna and Franck's dips and drops workshop at the last Beach Ballroom was brilliant :D
Scot's Double Trouble workshops are a must if you want to learn how to do that.

My point in this list (and it's not complete, just a few for illustrative purposes) is that I don't think many of these teachers are regularly featured at weekends etc and so might not be "top" teachers in the eyes of some..........

If I see a workshop advertised and I haven't heard of the teacher then I would ask friends/at ceroc/on the forum if anyone had heard of them before or had been to any of their classes. I'd read the blurb on the advert and wouldn't expect anyone to be billed as "average" regardless of if it was their first workshop.

Agree too, that the success of each workshop will determine how things go in the future - if the teacher doesn't live up to the hype then people will not pay to go.

[johnah]

:wink:

Good morning Sheena. Your posting made for interesting reading - sheer common sense. Our objective at the Southport Jive Extravadanca is to provide workshops that dancers can learn from and, importantly, have fun. I believe the quality of talented teachers we have brought together will achieve this - in anyone's terms, it is a quite impressive line-up.

:cheers:

[Liz]

It's about time we had our own dance weekender in the North! I've been dancing in the East Midlands (North of Watford) for over 6 years and visited Camber in November with 40 others from my dance venue. We had a great time but have wondered, why no-one had thought about a similar event up here.

I've heard it said that dancers in the South don't think dancers in the North are of a very high standard. How many of them have ventured further than Watford to find out?

So, I say, WELL DONE Jive Addiction for giving us Northeners a chance to show'em what we can do! I've booked my place at Southport already, along with my dance friends...

...Afterall, it's a matter of Northern Pride!!

:wink:

PS What a great line-up of teachers.

[johnah]

Hi Lizzy, thanks for your comments. Wes & I agree entirely with your sentiments hence, the Southport Jive Extravadanca Weekender! We look forward to welcoming you and your dance friends. :kiss:
Back on the subject of Teachers, we are delighted to welcome Martin and Ren from Australia to our line-up at Southport. Here's brief details about them.

REN LEXANDER: The most successful choreographer in the Australian history of Modern Jive. Ren's lessons have a stylish Latin bias and his teaching style is relaxed and informative. His recent Championship successes include:
1st Place - Showcase; 1st Place - Freestyle; 1st Place - Double Trouble;
1st Place - Team Routine [which he choreographed and performed in]. ONE NOT TO BE MISSED!

MARTIN ELLIOTT: With a background in Ballroom and Latin dance, he has been teaching MJ for over 7 years, specialising in Ariels and stylish routines. Recent Championship successes include: 1st Place - Team championship, 2nd Place - Double Trouble, Australia; 2nd Place - Team Championships, London, teaming up with Nigel & Nina, Clayton & Janine, Nicky & Robert.

:drool: :cheers:

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Jive Brummie
Surely a Top Teacher is somebody who's lesson you get a lot from.
Viktor may be a dance genius but if his style doesn't suit your's then you won't think of him as a top teacher.............??

........in the same way as a weed is just a plant that you don't want...........

......is anybody following this or am I talking kack:confused:

James........:wink:

I think I understand....

Viktor is a weed

:eek:

[Bill]

Originally posted by Jive Brummie
Surely a Top Teacher is somebody who's lesson you get a lot from.
Viktor may be a dance genius but if his style doesn't suit your's then you won't think of him as a top teacher.............??

James........:wink:


true...........but I think you can still appreciate someone as a good teacher even if you don't really like the style. At Beach Boogie Ii watched some teachers who were obviously really good but in a style I don't particularly like but I could still appreciate that how they taught was very good.

Conversely, I've seen a few teachers who I don't think are that great but the moves they usually teach are good and relatively simple ( so easy for me to remember !:D ).

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by johnah
MARTIN ELLIOTT: With a background in Ballroom and Latin dance, he has been teaching MJ for over 7 years, specialising in Ariels and stylish routines. Recent Championship successes include: 1st Place - Team championship, 2nd Place - Double Trouble, Australia; 2nd Place - Team Championships, London, teaming up with Nigel & Nina, Clayton & Janine, Nicky & Robert.

:drool: :cheers: Also one of the best teachers from the south east (england) before he moved to oz and the guy who first taught me drops and seducers (plus other stuff) for which I always gratefull.:cheers:

[Gus]

I've heard that name a number of times but always assumed the guy was still in the UK. Seems to have a big rep. When did he escape?

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by Gus
I've heard that name a number of times but always assumed the guy was still in the UK. Seems to have a big rep. When did he escape? Just before the dancing on the south east coast went pants

[Gus]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Just before the dancing on the south east coast went pants

Ahem .... is there a correlation? :wink:

[Tazmanian Devil]

I think a top teacher is a teacher who is an entertainer like Kelly Andrews (charlton) She is a wonderful teacher she makes the beginners feel at ease, and always makes her classes fun! :waycool: Mikey is another good teacher for the same reasons he makes the crowd have a laugh while learning his moves :nice: At the end of the day if people can have a laugh and a giggle while learning to dance it makes it that much better to learn. :kiss: :hug:

[johnah]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
At the end of the day if people can have a laugh and a giggle while learning to dance it makes it that much better to learn. :kiss: :hug:
So so right, and I think that the line-up at the Southport Jive Extravadanca demonstrates that Jive Addiction are endeavouring to provide that and, as well as Martin Elliott who has a great reputation, one should not forget REN LEXANDER -check out an earlier posting for details about Ren.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Liz
It's about time we had our own dance weekender in the North!
Oh but we do, BoogieNights has had excellent weekenders and no doubt will have many more. Go to www.boogienights.net - boogienights the tastiest dance company this side of neptune, run by the luscious lindsay.


Its big word day today, Ill see if I can come up with anymore :).

[Bill]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Oh but we do, BoogieNights has had excellent weekenders and no doubt will have many more. Go to www.boogienights.net - boogienights the tastiest dance company this side of neptune, run by the luscious lindsay.


Its big word day today, Ill see if I can come up with anymore :).

You crawler............... hoping for free tickets then are we :D :na: I'm sure Lindsay will appreciate the appropriate use of alliteration :wink:

[Chris]

From the context of the thread, the other meaning of 'top teachers' is pulling power. Advertise people with the profile of Nigel & Nina (or say Roger Cordoba, or Nicky Haslam) at an event, and you are going to have a lot of dancers (and a lot of good dancers) turn up. With so many events to choose from it's a way of reassuring people it will be successful.

Often, admittedly, there's a direct crossover (hence the 'A' List idea), but there's more to 'top teachers' than ability alone. If someone's brilliant but no-one knows that, it won't pull people to the weekend as effectively as well-known names.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Chris
From the context of the thread, the other meaning of 'top teachers' is pulling power. Advertise people with the profile of Nigel & Nina (or say Roger Cordoba, or Nicky Haslam) at an event, and you are going to have a lot of dancers (and a lot of good dancers) turn up. With so many events to choose from it's a way of reassuring people it will be successful.

Often, admittedly, there's a direct crossover (hence the 'A' List idea), but there's more to 'top teachers' than ability alone. If someone's brilliant but no-one knows that, it won't pull people to the weekend as effectively as well-known names.

It is also how the teachers market themselves, at the start of last year I got an e-mail from the UK asking me "who is this Nicky Haslam, is she good enough to teach for me?". she marketed herself well and had a sucecsssful 2 trips. Also Nigel and Nina marketed themselves well when they started teaching generally in 1997.

I am sure you will find a good correlation between the percieved "top teachers" and their marketing.

[Robert Winter]

Originally posted by Martin
It is also how the teachers market themselves... I am sure you will find a good correlation between the perceived "top teachers" and their marketing.

Just reading through this subject and thought I should drop in my 5 cents (or should I say pence). I totally agree with Martin on this one. But perhaps not in the way some people would imagine. In our tours around the place Nicky and I have been privileged to meet, dance and talk with some of the best :grin: and the worst :what: dancers on the planet. Not just Ceroc & Modern Jive'ers but also dancers from other styles. And many of them deservedly hold their reputations. However I have been surprised at the reputation that some teachers hold.

Initially I felt that marketing did not make too much of a difference, I was (and some still say am) young and naive and I believed that however well you billed yourself once you had stood up on stage people (at least the majority) would see you for what you are, either a towering success, a fraud or something in between. But the longer and longer I dance the more and more I am amazed at some dancers and choreographers who consistently receive top billing, yet having seen their classes, dancing and choreography feel that it is fantastic that they are making the effort but really I would have thought that people would watch and say, "it's nice and all but where are these 'top dancers' I was told were coming".

So in conclusion (your honour) I do think that a lot of it seems to be marketing based as some names belong in the A list and others frankly shouldn’t appear, even if just from a marketing point of view. After all one would not mention Fred Astaire in the same breath as “Untalented Dancer from somewhere”.

And I know that this may be a case of the pot calling the kettle black and many of you may think I of all people should not be criticising others in this way... but... Is anyone else out there surprised at the consistency with which some people are fated wherever go?

[Robert Winter]

Also to add, I would agree with Taz that teachers like Kelly Andrews are undeniably good teachers. They communicate their thoughts well and people find it easy to learn from them. And this is the point that I feel needs clarification. Are we talking great teachers or great dancers. After all I think that we all know teachers who’s classes we love yet we would not put in the best we have ever seen class, and there are also as many great dancers who couldn't teach to save their lives. I suppose that the problem stems from the fact that if ones goes to learn from someone then there is a preconception that to teach one should generally have a greater grasp of the subject than the students. In this case therefore great teaching and great dancing go hand in hand. Which is not always true.

And at the beginners level this is not a problem. The main aim is to impart the basics of dance movement and a general knowledge of "am I on the beat or the half beat". However I feel that when one gets to the upper echelons of dance, great teaching and great dancing need to go hand in hand. And if the teacher can't dance to that level, should procure dancers who can. In one famous case I saw a style class taught by video presentation. The teacher wasn't that good so got around this by showing clips from Fred and Ginger films, World Championship level dance comps etc.

I thought that this was a very good idea, he is a very good teacher (only a moderate dancer) but he was able to utilise his genuine teaching ability to impart understanding and did not try and pass off what he did as world class. And I think that people respected him all the more for it. As appose to teachers who think I am "**** hot" and just by watching me people will be able to see what great dancing is all about. Some can do this but many cannot.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Robert Winter
Just reading through this subject and thought I should drop in my 5 cents (or should I say pence). I totally agree with Martin on this one. But perhaps not in the way some people would imagine. In our tours around the place Nicky and I have been privileged to meet, dance and talk with some of the best :grin: and the worst :what: dancers on the planet. Not just Ceroc & Modern Jive'ers but also dancers from other styles. And many of them deservedly hold their reputations. However I have been surprised at the reputation that some teachers hold.

Initially I felt that marketing did not make too much of a difference, I was (and some still say am) young and naive and I believed that however well you billed yourself once you had stood up on stage people (at least the majority) would see you for what you are, either a towering success, a fraud or something in between. But the longer and longer I dance the more and more I am amazed at some dancers and choreographers who consistently receive top billing, yet having seen their classes, dancing and choreography feel that it is fantastic that they are making the effort but really I would have thought that people would watch and say, "it's nice and all but where are these 'top dancers' I was told were coming".

So in conclusion (your honour) I do think that a lot of it seems to be marketing based as some names belong in the A list and others frankly shouldn’t appear, even if just from a marketing point of view. After all one would not mention Fred Astaire in the same breath as “Untalented Dancer from somewhere”.

And I know that this may be a case of the pot calling the kettle black and many of you may think I of all people should not be criticising others in this way... but... Is anyone else out there surprised at the consistency with which some people are fated wherever go?

Firstly welcome to the forum Robert - a surfer and now a contributor :cheers:

As a general to all, Robert is a talented dancer and partners Nicky Haslam. Cool young and cute :drool: - note to the ladies only...
He has worked very hard to get to where he is now. (hate him - some of those moves are not natural, you expect me to do that "Roxey" back bendthing, get real my body does not work that way...)

I too am amazed at how some people still teach at these events with less than average ability.


"Top teachers" are top through marketing.

Please Robert, put that last paragraph in English - can't understand it...
:kiss:

[Martin]

Originally posted by Robert Winter
“Untalented Dancer from somewhere”.



A scary thought - was this me :tears: :tears: :tears:

[Martin]

Originally posted by Robert Winter
Also to add, I would agree with Taz that teachers like Kelly Andrews are undeniably good teachers. They communicate their thoughts well and people find it easy to learn from them. And this is the point that I feel needs clarification. Are we talking great teachers or great dancers. After all I think that we all know teachers who’s classes we love yet we would not put in the best we have ever seen class, and there are also as many great dancers who couldn't teach to save their lives. I suppose that the problem stems from the fact that if ones goes to learn from someone then there is a preconception that to teach one should generally have a greater grasp of the subject than the students. In this case therefore great teaching and great dancing go hand in hand. Which is not always true.

And at the beginners level this is not a problem. The main aim is to impart the basics of dance movement and a general knowledge of "am I on the beat or the half beat". However I feel that when one gets to the upper echelons of dance, great teaching and great dancing need to go hand in hand. And if the teacher can't dance to that level, should procure dancers who can. In one famous case I saw a style class taught by video presentation. The teacher wasn't that good so got around this by showing clips from Fred and Ginger films, World Championship level dance comps etc.

I thought that this was a very good idea, he is a very good teacher (only a moderate dancer) but he was able to utilise his genuine teaching ability to impart understanding and did not try and pass off what he did as world class. And I think that people respected him all the more for it. As appose to teachers who think I am "**** hot" and just by watching me people will be able to see what great dancing is all about. Some can do this but many cannot.

Hey computer buff Robert, did you mean to start a new thread:cheers: :rofl: :rofl: - love you really:kiss:

I am a self confesed "average" or "below average" freestyler BUT consider my teaching skills to be top class.

I always delighted in students "topping me" as I had then done the job I set out to do.

Maybe a merge is required here:na:

[Robert Winter]

Originally posted by Martin
A scary thought - was this me :tears: :tears: :tears:

No... certainly not . I was trying to deliberately avoid mentioning peoples names for two reasons. First, it would not be nice of me to start laying into people on my first post, and second as Franck runs this little get together, and as he is responsible for signing some of my pay checks when I am in the UK I thought it best to play nicely with the other children.

Though Brian (one of our demo crew performers in Sydney) did say (about the backbend move) that it was the last time he learns a routine choreographed by someone under the age of 30. :innocent:

[Robert Winter]

Originally posted by Martin
Hey computer buff Robert, did you mean to start a new thread:cheers: :rofl: :rofl: - love you really:kiss:

I am a self confesed "average" or "below average" freestyler BUT consider my teaching skills to be top class.

I always delighted in students "topping me" as I had then done the job I set out to do.

Maybe a merge is required here:na:

No that was an accident. As for being a Computer buff. This is just typical of what I mean. Just because I build websites for people (if anyone wants a cool site just let me know) and because people feel the need to call me in to fix every computer related problem from the management of the WWW to my Mum's pc (she really should get a Mac - sorry Bill) doesn't mean I know what I am doing.

But I do agree about the teaching. And that is why my comments were not directed at you. You have never claimed to be someone you are not, which is quiet refreshing these days. And it also underlines my point. Despite not being the "the very model of a modern Major General" (to quote G&S) your classes have proved very popular and your students do learn a lot.

But that is because you realise your limitations and teach within them (once again not a criticism). You specialise in particular areas (like David & Lily who are lifts specialists) and teach what you are good at. My argument is with those teachers who are not great dancers, nor are they competent teachers. They are merely self appointed "experts" who are good at networking and finagle their way onto teaching lists with the genuinely great. I call it talent by association.

Dancer X's name appears next to dancer Y therefore dancer X must be good. As Socrates said "don't bathe in my reflected glory".

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Martin
"Top teachers" are top through marketing.

Top teachers are top through talent. Their marketing has to be good too but without talent they still would not be top teachers.

We all know people who are good at marketing themselves - and for a time we fall for it. But after a while we realise the claims are without substance or exaggerated.

Of course, the answer to the question 'who are the top teachers' would be to have the jive equivalent of SATs and produce a league table...

:devil:

[Lounge Lizard]

Hi Robert and welcome, I agree that all to often reputation is better than content and the teachers (and over here DJ's) who dont really promote themselves can get overlooked. How many on the forum know of Nelson Rose, for example who is a great teacher/dj on the MJ scene.

Promotion is an immportant part of what we do, personally I am pretty good at organising things and hopeless at promotion, it does not matter how fantastic the teaching/event/music is if the punters dont turn up it will fail.
peter

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Robert Winter
Though Brian (one of our demo crew performers in Sydney) did say (about the backbend move) that it was the last time he learns a routine choreographed by someone under the age of 30. We could choreograph a routine especially for him if you want...:devil:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Hi Robert and welcome, I agree that all to often reputation is better than content and the teachers (and over here DJ's) who dont really promote themselves can get overlooked. How many on the forum know of Nelson Rose, for example who is a great teacher/dj on the MJ scene.

I'm sorry LL I have to disagree. Reputation is not 'better than content'. To be a 'Top Teacher' you really need both talent and good marketing. You are right that some great teachers like Nelson deserve to be more widely known - but how many established top teachers are there who have good marketing and little or no talent?


Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Promotion is an important part of what we do, personally I am pretty good at organising things and hopeless at promotion, it does not matter how fantastic the teaching/event/music is if the punters dont turn up it will fail.
peter

I completely agree with this bit although LL is too hard on himself. He is good at some promotion but every time he's tried to set up in Brighton it's been a flop - but I think that's Brighton rather than LL.:waycool:

[Martin]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Robert Winter
Though Brian (one of our demo crew performers in Sydney) did say (about the backbend move) that it was the last time he learns a routine choreographed by someone under the age of 30.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The oracle said...
We could choreograph a routine especially for him if you want...

Oracle you may be BUT have you seen that move – love to see you try it
:tears: :tears: :tears:

I did ask if they had an over 40's version - unfortunately all I got was a laugh from the stage:blush:

Brian is a top dancer, also an old bastard like myself (and a good friend)

That Robert, soon his body will be mush and then prehaps we can keep up:cheers:

[Robert Winter]

Originally posted by Martin
quote:That Robert, soon his body will be mush and then prehaps we can keep up:cheers:

Well continuing the way I am I don't expect to make it past 26. So you might not get your wish and see me turn to mush.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Martin
BUT have you seen that move – love to see you try it Do you mean this move (the dancers are Benji & Heidi from the US)...

[Robert Winter]

Originally posted by DavidB
Do you mean this move (the dancers are Benji & Heidi from the US)...

Err... no. This is something much simpler and a little more elegant. And it only requires a back bend from the guy.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Top teachers are top through talent. Their marketing has to be good too but without talent they still would not be top teachers.

In an ideal world but I dont think that is always the case. I've been to workshops for allegded 'Top Teachers' and had to walk out because they were so bad. Conversly, as previously mentioned, there are many excellent teachers around the UK who's skills have yet to be brought to the attention of the wider public. I think 'Top Teacher' is really just a marketing slogan.... and means something different to different people.

Maybe it all comes down to no set definition of teaching competencies. Some teachers are better on club nights, some can coach, some can teach specialist workshops ... some should just be taken out and shot:devil: But as the only other marketing angle is to list thier past competition succeses .. what else can a promoter do?

[Martin]

Originally posted by Robert Winter
Err... no. This is something much simpler and a little more elegant. And it only requires a back bend from the guy.

Simple for you mate - I would prefer David's move, if a girl can lift me like that:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
To explain guy on his knees, bends back until his back is touching flat on the floor:tears: - try it guys, then get that hernia sorted...:blush:


Originally posted by Gus
Maybe it all comes down to no set definition of teaching competencies. Some teachers are better on club nights, some can coach, some can teach specialist workshops ... some should just be taken out and shot:devil: But as the only other marketing angle is to list thier past competition succeses .. what else can a promoter do?

Too right Gus, I'll give you the gun. I listed comp sucesses only because I am not full time on the UK circuit, there are a lot of dancers faily new to the dance scene that do not know me in the UK.

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Martin
Firstly welcome to the forum Robert - a surfer and now a contributor :cheers:

As a general to all, Robert is a talented dancer and partners Nicky Haslam. Cool young and cute :drool: - note to the ladies only...



Mmm your not wrong :drool: :drool:

[Mikey]

Originally posted by Robert Winter
Well continuing the way I am I don't expect to make it past 26. So you might not get your wish and see me turn to mush.


You must be joking ? If a couple of old farts like me and Martin are still dancing .. you got no problems.. just gain a little wieght, slow down and get a bit cheeky..:rofl:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Mikey
You must be joking ? If a couple of old farts like me and Martin are still dancing .. you got no problems..


Ahh your not that old darling :wink:




Originally posted by Mikey
just gain a little wieght, slow down and get a bit cheeky..:rofl:



:rofl: :rofl: Na he's fine the way he is :drool: :kiss: :hug:

[Robert Winter]

Originally posted by Mikey
You must be joking ? If a couple of old farts like me and Martin are still dancing .. you got no problems.. just gain a little wieght, slow down and get a bit cheeky..:rofl:

Sorry to disappoint boys, I’d love to gain a little weight but with posts like these from the divine Tasmanian it seems that I had better keep myself in shape.

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Robert Winter
Sorry to disappoint boys, I’d love to gain a little weight but with posts like these from the divine Tasmanian it seems that I had better keep myself in shape.



Oh yes don't listen to them I think your luvly the way you are :drool:

[Jon]

Originally posted by Robert Winter
Sorry to disappoint boys, I’d love to gain a little weight but with posts like these from the divine Tasmanian it seems that I had better keep myself in shape.
Don't listen to Taz do what makes you happy :wink:


p.s. I'm also a web / database developer and stay well away from fixing everyones pc. Learnt that lesson!

[Robert Winter]

Originally posted by Jon
stay well away from fixing everyones pc. Learnt that lesson!

Yes this is one I have learnt the hard way.

In fact I should start a thread and ask "why is it that well paid corporate contracts seem to be virtually hassle free, while pro gratis work done for a friend of a friend (or some girl in the supermarket that smiled at you nicely) always seem to be more trouble than they are worth?":tears:

[Martin]

Originally posted by Robert Winter
some girl in the supermarket that smiled at you nicely always seem to be more trouble than they are worth?":tears:

Oh Robert, so young, but learning...:grin:

[Mikey]

Originally posted by Martin
Oh Robert, so young, but learning...:grin:

If he's lucky he might learn the HARD way:rofl:

[Robert Winter]

Originally posted by Mikey
If he's lucky he might learn the HARD way:rofl:

It is certainly HARD :devil:, though I can't see why that is lucky... or is that something that will seem lucky when I get older!!! :rofl: :rofl:

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by Gus
Having said that I've never seen Andy and Mandy teach yet I've had it on good authority that they are amazing ... so they are another couple who's workshop I'd like to attend.


Do you mean ADAM & Mandy THEY are amazing (Ceroc Metro) I thought Andy & Mandy (originally Le Jive) are no longer teaching ... unless someone can tell me different :confused:

[Robert Winter]

Originally posted by Minnie M
Do you mean ADAM & Mandy THEY are amazing (Ceroc Metro) I thought Andy & Mandy (originally Le Jive) are no longer teaching ... unless someone can tell me different :confused:

Assuming Adam & Mandy are the Adam & Mandy I am thinking of they now run Ceroc Metro. For more class details see www.cerocmetro.com.

I really should start charging them for promotion. :grin:

[Minnie M]

Originally posted by Robert Winter
I really should start charging them for promotion. :grin:

Welcome Robert :hug:

I think you guys belong to the Mutual Admiration Society - have you read the comments from previous threads:wink:

[Jon]

Originally posted by Robert Winter
Yes this is one I have learnt the hard way.

In fact I should start a thread and ask "why is it that well paid corporate contracts seem to be virtually hassle free, while pro gratis work done for a friend of a friend (or some girl in the supermarket that smiled at you nicely) always seem to be more trouble than they are worth?":tears:

I can totally relate to all of that although I haven't had a girl smile nicely at me at the supermarket yet, but I'll take your word she's more trouble than she's worth! :wink:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Robert Winter
(or some girl in the supermarket that smiled at you nicely) always seem to be more trouble than they are worth?":tears:



Hey were not all bad :wink: :hug:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Jon
I can totally relate to all of that although I haven't had a girl smile nicely at me at the supermarket yet, but I'll take your word she's more trouble than she's worth! :wink:



Aaah Jon you poor lad!! You probly have had a lady smile at you in the supermarket but it helps if you look to find out!! :kiss: :hug:

[johnah]

There's been a lot of discussion about what is and what is not a "Top" Teacher and, I'm pleased to say the Southport Jive Extravadanca brings together "The North's BEST EVER line-up of Teachers. The Jive Addiction website has been updated and for all to see, some pretty impressive creditials! :drool:

Check it our for yourselves www.jiveaddiction.com

:cheers:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by johnah
There's been a lot of discussion about what is and what is not a "Top" Teacher and, I'm pleased to say the Southport Jive Extravadanca brings together "The North's BEST EVER line-up of Teachers. The Jive Addiction website has been updated and for all to see, some pretty impressive creditials! :drool:

Check it our for yourselves www.jiveaddiction.com

:cheers:

Nice one it looks good. Think I may just have to book up for that one!! :wink:

[Chris]

Originally posted by johnah
The Jive Addiction website has been updated and for all to see, some pretty impressive creditials!

Have I read it right that Nigel Anderson (who's unique playlist I rather like) is also DJ-ing? And is there a freestyle blues room?

[Jon]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Hey were not all bad :wink: :hug:
So are you saying your one of the good ones then? :D :D :rofl: :rofl::hug:

[Tazmanian Devil]

Originally posted by Jon
So are you saying your one of the good ones then? :D :D :rofl: :rofl::hug:


Just look at my evil meter hunny I'm an Angel :rofl: :rofl:

[Jon]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Just look at my evil meter hunny I'm an Angel :rofl: :rofl:

Don't believe everything you read hun! :D :D :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[johnah]

Originally posted by Chris
Have I read it right that Nigel Anderson (who's unique playlist I rather like) is also DJ-ing? And is there a freestyle blues room?

Yes Chris, you read it correctly, Nigel is DJ-ing. And, YES again, there is a freestyle Swing & Blues Room at Southport.

See www.jiveaddiction.com


:cheers:

[johnah]

Originally posted by Tazmanian Devil
Nice one it looks good. Think I may just have to book up for that one!! :wink:

Thanks, we're doing our level best to keep everyone as informed as possible about Southport and review almost daily our website content. See
www.jiveaddiction.com for all the latest info'

:waycool:

[johnah]

Originally posted by Chris
Have I read it right that Nigel Anderson (who's unique playlist I rather like) is also DJ-ing? And is there a freestyle blues room?

Yes Chris, you read it correctly, Nigel is DJ-ing. And, YES again, there is a freestyle Swing & Blues Room at Southport.

See www.jiveaddiction.com


:cheers:

[Mikey]

Anyone seen that fantastic red jacket on www.jiveaddiction.com

what style eh:wink: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[stompin' phil]

Originally posted by Mikey
Anyone seen that fantastic red jacket on www.jiveaddiction.com

what style eh:wink: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You wait to you see the jacket i wear at Stompin'
Bring your sunglasses!waycool:


Stompin' phil x

[stompin' phil]

:waycool:
present for Mikey

Stompin' phil

[Mikey]

Originally posted by stompin' phil
You wait to you see the jacket i wear at Stompin'
Bring your sunglasses!waycool:


Stompin' phil x

Sounds like a challenge to me :wink:

[stompin' phil]

Originally posted by Mikey
Sounds like a challenge to me :wink:

We will see


:wink:

Stompin' phil

[Bill]

Some of the posts here got me thinking about who teaches what and how 'qualified' they are to teach.

It's obvious that winning competitions helps when promoting yourself but is that in itself enough ??? How does a newcomer get onto the scene and can teachers teach a range of styles/ moves etc........

I know N & N teach blues/lindy etc.. but many teachers are well known for one type of dance eg Lounge Lizard and drops. Is it easy to diversify or does a teacher have to be a 'winner' ? Or is being trained through the likes of Ceroc enough of an incentive or attraction to go along.

If 'Jim and Jean from Anytown' advertised themselves as teachers who would go to their workshop if they hadn't won a national competition ? And if someone isn't regarded as an 'expert' in the dance style would they have any credibility ?

Many of the names on the forum become familiar and so even dancers who have never seen Dan Baines, Amir, N & N, Viktor, David & Lily et al will know of them so if they are in their area they will probably go along to see them. Indeed is there the danger that it becomes a closed shop and only a small group become the 'top' teachers ?

[Mikey]

Originally posted by Bill
Some of the posts here got me thinking about who teaches what and how 'qualified' they are to teach.

It's obvious that winning competitions helps when promoting yourself but is that in itself enough ??? How does a newcomer get onto the scene and can teachers teach a range of styles/ moves etc........

I have never entered, hence not won a competition in the 12 years of my dancing, so it's not a requsite to becoming a popular teacher at all. I still have a full room of 600 to a 1000 at the likes of Camber each time.




Originally posted by Bill

If 'Jim and Jean from Anytown' advertised themselves as teachers who would go to their workshop if they hadn't won a national competition ? And if someone isn't regarded as an 'expert' in the dance style would they have any credibility ?

Many of the names on the forum become familiar and so even dancers who have never seen Dan Baines, Amir, N & N, Viktor, David & Lily et al will know of them so if they are in their area they will probably go along to see them. Indeed is there the danger that it becomes a closed shop and only a small group become the 'top' teachers ?

I only started the weekenders last year, so in effect I am new on the scene compared to people like N & N etc and I do workshops etc all over the UK now and they are not all based on purely what i teach at the weekenders. I do believe it's my personality and the combination of fun,stylish moves that get those bookings.

I also think you will find more young talent coming forth all the time, even i have see future teachers who are waiting to be discovered and get well known on the circut as such. what i do think helps teachers when they become popular is the experience they have and thier ability to teach large classes and good workshops and that takes time, so all that new young talent is out there gaining that all the time...

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by stompin' phil
You wait to you see the jacket i wear at Stompin'
Bring your sunglasses!waycool:


Stompin' phil x Ok I will pick up the challenge - look out for the 'Bluesmaster'



Mikey for gawd's sake remind me to take the jacket,
sunglasses wont help :wink:

[Mary]

Originally posted by Bill
Some of the posts here got me thinking about who teaches what and how 'qualified' they are to teach.


If 'Jim and Jean from Anytown' advertised themselves as teachers who would go to their workshop if they hadn't won a national competition ? And if someone isn't regarded as an 'expert' in the dance style would they have any credibility ?



I know what you mean Bill, however, did a class that a young guy called Sean taught - he must only be in his teens, or early twenties at the most. He was fab. IMO he had an instinctive knack of how to handle a class and keep it pacey. Don't think he's won any competitions (but don't know for sure), and had not seen him on the dance circuit until recently. He is one of "new breed" of MJ'ers who do some really cool, funky stuff along with Adam and Tas - so maybe that makes him (them) a specialist.

Perhaps an element of talent spotting goes on (as in Ceroc). And then I guess it's invitation (e.g. Rock Bottoms) and then reputation spreads quickly by word of mouth.

That's the way it appears to me anyway.

M

[Bill]

Originally posted by Mikey
I also think you will find more young talent coming forth all the time, even i have see future teachers who are waiting to be discovered and get well known on the circut as such. what i do think helps teachers when they become popular is the experience they have and thier ability to teach large classes and good workshops and that takes time, so all that new young talent is out there gaining that all the time...



I'm never seen you teach Mikey but am looking forward to the experience :D

It's obviously easier to build a reputation if you teach regular classes but do all teachers on the circuit teach reguarly ? And if not how do they build their reputation or decide what they are 'qualified' to teach ??


The only example I know of up here is Steve ( Tramp) who teaches at various weekenders but is not a 'regular' teacher. There must be others in the same boat and I assume like Steve they build a reputation by competing and doing well in comps.

Like yourself I don't know if Adam has entered competitions but he has a great reputation as well but he also teaches on a regular basis. How does an organiser get to know of any emerging talent or teachers when putting together a 'weekender'? Are names spread on the grapevine etc....

[Gus]

Originally posted by Bill
Are names spread on the grapevine etc....

Its often down to word of mouth and personal recomendation. When I was running a broader range of workshops I'd ask my mates (who were in the know) in London as to who was hot. These days, I'd probably only see a new 'hot' talent after they had appeared at Jive Spree or somewhere similar.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Mary
a young guy called Sean taught - he must only be in his teens, or early twenties at the most. He was fab. IMO he had an instinctive knack of how to handle a class and keep it pacey.
If it's the same Sean I'm thinking of, I think he's either 17 or 18 now. He and Adam did a routine together (yes really) at one of the very early IOW RBs, when, IIRC, they were both 16 - hi energy, hip-hop, quite macho, type stuff.

Then he did a hip-hop jive class with Tas at RB last Oct which I went to and thoroughly enjoyed - it was excellent - agree strongly about the knack of class-handling and pace.

Just wish I hadn't given up dancing in my 20s for so bl**dy long :tears:

Chris

[Martin]

Originally posted by Mikey
ability to teach large classes and good workshops and that takes time

This is a big factor, you have to be able to control the numbers, project well and entertain the crowd who are of a wide range of abilities, even in Advanced classes. This is a different skill to small classes and locals who forgive you many things


Originally posted by Bill
do all teachers on the circuit teach reguarly ? And if not how do they build their reputation or decide what they are 'qualified' to teach ??

The only example I know of up here is Steve ( Tramp) who teaches at various weekenders but is not a 'regular' teacher.

Are names spread on the grapevine etc....

Speaking for myself I no longer teach "regularly" but still do "the circuit" when in the UK (and do specialist workshops in Aussie, also corrie routines for fun and shows, mainly because I do not need the regular income from it).

As to "qualified" to teach, many "qualified" teachers simply do not cut it, natural teachers win out here, pieces of paper mean nothing if you are not doing the business. - Same in any profession.

I cannot comment on Trampy, never seen him teach.

It is difficult for an organiser as many people say "I am a great teacher" and turn out to be not so great...:blush:
To Franco's credit he was the originator of the LARGE week-ends, as such he has had to go through this process. There have been some good and some bad in the past. In 2000 I wanted Simon de-Lisle to teach at the same time as me (we were coming over as a group from Aussie in November), as Franco knows my teaching he said he could teach one of my slots ONLY if I personally recommended him as a teacher.
The same happened with Nicky and Robert where Franco asked me for a personal recomendation as to thier teaching abilities before agreeing to them teaching at Camber 2003.

Organisers simply cannot go to ALL classes and evaluate teachers, so they have to rely on recomendations from those they trust to have a high standard that has been observed. So yes Grapevine is needed here, but grapevine from proven sources.

Comps mean nothing if you cannot teach. I use comp wins in my profile only for those who do not know me and as a promotion extra. It is not a pre-requisite, but it does not hurt to mention them for the people attending.

I hope to see you all March, April, May time this year and yes I will be doing some "Week-end" teaching.

(only one teacher to weed out on the "bin" list for the Camber stuff IMHO, time will tell - I did not go to his class but 3 other teachers did and my brother did, all left early and were unhappy:blush: )

[Dreadful Scathe]

I'm willing (NO Im not) to be booked as a teacher. I'm absolutely terrible and have nothing useful to share so would be an asset to any badly organised event - any bad teachers would look excellent compared to me :D. Always useful to have that at any event ;) i'd get a reputation and they'd know who to avoid, thus increasing the fill rates of the dodgy teachers classes as the punters run out of alternatives :D. I think some events do this already :D

none that I've been to, but you hear things dont you :)

well I do - voices usually - they say "collect cotton wool. its fluffy and when you have enough you can stick it to your walls and it will be just like living in a cloud, but without the birds and aeroplanes passing through"

[Martin]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I'm willing (NO Im not) to be booked as a teacher. I'm absolutely terrible and have nothing useful to share so would be an asset to any badly organised event - any bad teachers would look excellent compared to me . Always useful to have that at any event ;) i'd get a reputation and they'd know who to avoid, thus increasing the fill rates of the dodgy teachers classes as the punters run out of alternatives. I think some events do this already

none that I've been to, but you hear things dont you :)


I am sure you are jesting BUT great to have a crap teacher on at the same time I am teaching:clap:

Unfortunately Franco always puts on 2 good teachers at the same time to "even out numbers" :tears:

As to dodgy teachers classes, probably why Mikey's classes do so well, as no real alternative...:rofl: :rofl:

I am soooo dead now :flower: :flower:

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gus
Its often down to word of mouth and personal recomendation. When I was running a broader range of workshops I'd ask my mates (who were in the know) in London as to who was hot. These days, I'd probably only see a new 'hot' talent after they had appeared at Jive Spree or somewhere similar.


So do you think word of mouth is in fact more important than winning competitions ? Given that many folk don't always agree with the judges decision anyway will dancers be spotted at comps regardless of how well they do ?

Personally I'd be much more likely to go along to a workshop if I'd heard from friends that someone was good although having said that, at Beach Boogie a couple of years ago the teacher I thought was the least effective taught more moves I remembered weeks and months later.:rolleyes:

[Mikey]

Originally posted by Martin

As to dodgy teachers classes, probably why Mikey's classes do so well, as no real alternative...:rofl: :rofl:

I am soooo dead now :flower: :flower:

Your so right:yeah: and your "ASS" is grass, so guess who's gonna smoke it:whistle: You wait and see the grief you get when I spot you in my class next:wink:

In fact.. I'm gonna tell Lory you were 'orrible to me..

[Gus]

Originally posted by Bill
So do you think word of mouth is in fact more important than winning competitions ?

Personal view ... I've been to a number of classes by teachers which were quite poor ... then seen them get into the Finals of Dance competitions.:tears: So .. no, I dont think competition success is important. I booked Viktor, James Hamilton etc on the basis of their teaching ability ... no knowledge of, at that point, any competition success by either of them.

[foxylady]

Originally posted by Gus
I booked Viktor, James Hamilton etc on the basis of their teaching ability ... no knowledge of, at that point, any competition success by either of them.


Isn't James Hamilton just the best.... He and I were beginners together way back before life got in the way of dancing (well certainly in my case ! - he managed to ensure dancing got in the way of/became life)

FL

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gus
Personal view ... I've been to a number of classes by teachers which were quite poor ... then seen them get into the Finals of Dance competitions.:tears: So .. no, I dont think competition success is important. I booked Viktor, James Hamilton etc on the basis of their teaching ability ... no knowledge of, at that point, any competition success by either of them.

In my opinion, good teachers need to be good dancers as well. That doesn't mean that all good dancers will be good teachers. I think that if you only ever had lessons from one teacher it would be difficult to become a much better dancer than your teacher - so you'd need to find a teacher who's also a really good dancer. Otherwise you teacher's ability would place a ceiling on your learning potential.

Competition success has absolutely nothing to do with teaching ability. And winning a dance contest doesn't even mean you're the best dancer in the country, you're just the best of those that entered, on that particular day as judged by those particular judges. However, if you're looking for a teacher who's a good dancer as well as a good teacher the news that they've won a competition means they are considered a good dancer - meaning you only need gamble that they're a good teacher too.

And then, because we're doing MJ for fun the teacher needs to be entertaining too - but that shouldn't be a substitute for dancing or teaching ability.

[spindr]

Originally posted by ChrisA
If it's the same Sean I'm thinking of, I think he's either 17 or 18 now. He and Adam did a routine together (yes really) at one of the very early IOW RBs, when, IIRC, they were both 16 - hi energy, hip-hop, quite macho, type stuff.


Yep, Sean's now teaching for www.jiveriot.com at the Railway Institute in Eastleigh on a Thursday (8pm).

Did his class a couple of weeks ago, it was rather a nice routine with a couple of slightly different variations.

Plenty of room to dance -- although the RI is a smoking venue -- oh, and under 18's must be accompanied.

SpinDr.